Discussion: Luke Skywalker in TLJ

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Re: Discussion: Luke Skywalker in TLJ

Post by Saracene on Sun 06 May 2018, 3:55 am

If Ghost!Luke appears to Kylo in the Episode IX, he could maybe play the same role that Ghost!Yoda played for Luke in TLJ, i.e. support/advice at a low point. It could also be a bit like Rey and Kylo's interactions in TLJ where, because Luke is not there in a physical form and Kylo can't hurt him, he could eventually listen to Luke. Especially if he hit emotional rock bottom and just didn't have the energy for anything much.

Luke apologised to Kylo at Crait, but there were just too many other things mixed in there, like Luke having to antagonise his nephew to buy time for the Resistance, so it wasn't "pure" so to speak.
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Re: Discussion: Luke Skywalker in TLJ

Post by Starliteprism on Sun 06 May 2018, 7:26 am

@rawpowah wrote:@SoloSideCousin If we were to get a Dumbledore-between-life-and-death moment, I would rather it be between Ben and Han, but I don't know how that is possible though, since Han isn't force sensitive and there's no sign that Harrison is coming back for a cameo. LF would have to introduce some new force thing or something.

Anyway, I too hope there's not much Luke in IX unless it's a scene or two to properly apologize to Ben and get some closure. It might be necessary if Leia is not around.
@rawpowah

I wouldn't put it past Harrison for coming back for a quick cameo. Headcanon, Han appears, doesn't have to speak to Ben, maybe just nod, and he looks down as Han reaches out to touch his hand and then we see Leia's hand over theirs, and Ben looks slightly to the side and says, "Mom?!" as maybe she bridged the connection and made it possible for Ben to see his Dad in the first place. :-p
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Re: Discussion: Luke Skywalker in TLJ

Post by Apriljandy on Sun 06 May 2018, 8:46 am

I would rather a Han cameo than a Luke one. Like... at the end when Ben, bleeding to death, decides to end the FO AND die with it, sees a vision of Han and apologizes to him and tells Han that he loves him and he can't wait for them to be a family again in the afterlife. To which Han smirks and says it's not yet Ben's time to go, because someone else still needs him.... then he sees Rey in the background.

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Re: Discussion: Luke Skywalker in TLJ

Post by DeeBee on Sun 06 May 2018, 6:58 pm

@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@DeeBee wrote:
@Riri wrote:One of the best videos reflecting Lukes arc in TLJ. Explores the failure of the Jedi and Lukes relationship with Ben. Very emotional!

@Riri

I have tears in my eyes Riri, what an amazing vid - thanks so much for sharing! the edits are amazing, Yoda's perspective  - so powerful!!!
Kudos to the creators! Everyone must watch this!!!! Very Happy
I love how it brings together the whole story across all the movies- when we can finally bring the story of IX into the picture it is going to be so satisfying!!!

This vid is such a beautiful tribute to Luke's character, I loved how his story concluded in TLJ.
for fans who love Luke and are disappointed, I hope in time they will  change their mind and enjoy his journey - and his triumphant end.

I think if they use luke as a FG in IX it is going to be very minimally done. He's story has come to a satisfying end.. and he is such an iconic character it can be a challenge to ensure he doesn't overshadow the ST characters. It is their story now, not his.. His chapters have been written.

The starwars databank blurb that summarises the Luke skywalker entry has been updated with a few new and important sentences..
From feb 2018:


Updated to:


What caught my eye is the emphasis on the 'final' and momentous role he had to play with his actions at the end of the TLJ. This suggests Luke's story is finished..
Anyone have any thoughts or insights about this they'd like to share?
@DeeBee

I actually think that there is a minority shot that Luke won't come back. The last line to Kylo/Ben can certainly be read as "FG in IX," but I think that there is a small chance that the executives are done with Luke.

The character takes a lot of air out of the room and garners outsized attention, especially from hardcore fans. I mean the movie took a big hit due to what happened with Luke. LF may have been aware to some extent of that hit, and maybe they decided to just take it all at once in TLJ, and then move on. IOW, if Luke's not there, there is no more ammunition for "not my Luke" nonsense which would drag down the buzz around the next film. People either have turned on the franchise or they haven't. Bringing Luke back to give Kylo advice or whatever, in a way could just prolong the life-sucking aspect of the "not my Luke" complaints.

Also, just storywise, Luke needs to get out of the way, and Ben and Rey need to move on alone. There is certainly a possibility for that Dumbledore between-life-and-death moment, but that moment would most likely be with Kylo, who no matter what will have some bad blood with Luke. I mean maybe it could work, but it may not be as seamless as Dumbledore and Harry, since no one tried to kill the other there.

I don't know what they want to do, but in some respects it might be for the best to just let Luke go.
@SoloSideCousin

Hi SoloSideCousin - I agree Very Happy

I think it more likely Luke FG would briefly show up with Rey than Kylo/Ben - and instead we'd have Anakin show up to Ben.
But.. whatever it is, I think FG appearances will be brief.

We could maybe get a similar moment to ROTJ with a bunch of FGs off in the distance blissfully happy that the galaxy is balanced. lol. With that kind of moment, I even think it possible we could glimpse a Leia FG smiling and happy with redeemed Ben having found happiness with Rey!
Maybe without the yub yub and music that kind of moment can be little less cheesy haaaa..

Hear hear! If they can come up with a way to have a feasible Ben and Han meet up I'd be all for it!
[-the idea of time travel makes me a little nervous though.. ]

I'm going to have to look up this dumbledore life and death moment. I don't know harry potter! lol. At least I recognise it as Harry Potter I guess that's something haaaa..
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Re: Discussion: Luke Skywalker in TLJ

Post by 12 Parsnips on Sun 06 May 2018, 7:44 pm

@Riri wrote:One of the best videos reflecting Lukes arc in TLJ. Explores the failure of the Jedi and Lukes relationship with Ben. Very emotional!

@Riri

Thanks for posting this! So touching. Crying or Very sad
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Re: Discussion: Luke Skywalker in TLJ

Post by AhsokaTano on Wed 09 May 2018, 7:22 am

@12 Parsnips
Just saw this video - I cried so much watching this . Really tried to fight the tears but couldn’t . This is so well made and beautiful.So sad too . Sad
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Re: Discussion: Luke Skywalker in TLJ

Post by Birdwoman on Mon 14 May 2018, 12:26 pm

I finally sat down and watched the TLJ documentary yesterday. I knew Mark was not happy with Luke's story in the movie at first, however, from the documentary it seemed he was extremely upset. Something Ram said to the film makers after they filmed him talking to one of the crew about something that happened with Mark: "Mark expected to be the Luke Skywalker of this trilogy and he was not happy that he was not..." or something like that. I will have to go back and watch. It struck me because I keenly remember during TLJ celebration panel Kathleen Kennedy kind of correcting Mark after he said that he is a minor character now. Telling him that Luke is important in the story also. I remember finding that moment really odd, that I sensed it could have to do with behind the scenes stuff. After seeing the trilogy, seeing how during the rehearsals that Mark seemed upset and then comments by Rian and Ram. Yep, he obviously was much more unhappy with Luke's direction than he let on during his press tours. He is a professional and did his job but I found that interesting.

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Re: Discussion: Luke Skywalker in TLJ

Post by IoJovi on Mon 14 May 2018, 3:10 pm

@Birdwoman wrote:I finally sat down and watched the TLJ documentary yesterday. I knew Mark was not happy with Luke's story in the movie at first, however, from the documentary it seemed he was extremely upset. Something Ram said to the film makers after they filmed him talking to one of the crew about something that happened with Mark: "Mark expected to be the Luke Skywalker of this trilogy and he was not happy that he was not..." or something like that. I will have to go back and watch. It struck me because I keenly remember during TLJ celebration panel Kathleen Kennedy kind of correcting Mark after he said that he is a minor character now. Telling him that Luke is important in the story also. I remember finding that moment really odd, that I sensed it could have to do with behind the scenes stuff. After seeing the trilogy, seeing how during the rehearsals that Mark seemed upset and then comments by Rian and Ram. Yep, he obviously was much more unhappy with Luke's direction than he let on during his press tours. He is a professional and did his job but I found that interesting.
@Birdwoman

I was at the panel at SWC live and in person, and if memory serves, Mark didn't seem that upset. All he said was that he now was a supporting character passing the reigns on to the new generation, and KK interrupted him say no no Luke is still very much a main character in this trilogy!!! As tired as I was from being up all night camping out, it still struck me really strange because I didn't think what Mark was saying was odd at all. I expected him to have a Harrison Ford in TFA level of screen time and so I didn't think what Mark said was off base at all. KK's interjection is what made me go, "huh?"
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Re: Discussion: Luke Skywalker in TLJ

Post by ISeeAnIsland on Mon 14 May 2018, 3:16 pm

@IoJovi wrote:
@Birdwoman wrote:I finally sat down and watched the TLJ documentary yesterday. I knew Mark was not happy with Luke's story in the movie at first, however, from the documentary it seemed he was extremely upset. Something Ram said to the film makers after they filmed him talking to one of the crew about something that happened with Mark: "Mark expected to be the Luke Skywalker of this trilogy and he was not happy that he was not..." or something like that. I will have to go back and watch. It struck me because I keenly remember during TLJ celebration panel Kathleen Kennedy kind of correcting Mark after he said that he is a minor character now. Telling him that Luke is important in the story also. I remember finding that moment really odd, that I sensed it could have to do with behind the scenes stuff. After seeing the trilogy, seeing how during the rehearsals that Mark seemed upset and then comments by Rian and Ram. Yep, he obviously was much more unhappy with Luke's direction than he let on during his press tours. He is a professional and did his job but I found that interesting.
@Birdwoman

I was at the panel at SWC live and in person, and if memory serves, Mark didn't seem that upset. All he said was that he now was a supporting character passing the reigns on to the new generation, and KK interrupted him say no no Luke is still very much a main character in this trilogy!!! As tired as I was from being up all night camping out, it still struck me really strange because I didn't think what Mark was saying was odd at all. I expected him to have a Harrison Ford in TFA level of screen time and so I didn't think what Mark said was off base at all. KK's interjection is what made me go, "huh?"
@IoJovi

As you know, I was there with you all, and I had the same "Huh?" reaction. Granted, that was also in the marketing period where they were heavily pushing the "the relationship between Rey and Luke is the beating heart of the story" angle. (I mean, geez, Remember Daisy saying that "Luke" would give her away at her wedding?)

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Re: Discussion: Luke Skywalker in TLJ

Post by Irina de France on Mon 14 May 2018, 3:26 pm

@ISeeAnIsland wrote:
@IoJovi wrote:
@Birdwoman wrote:I finally sat down and watched the TLJ documentary yesterday. I knew Mark was not happy with Luke's story in the movie at first, however, from the documentary it seemed he was extremely upset. Something Ram said to the film makers after they filmed him talking to one of the crew about something that happened with Mark: "Mark expected to be the Luke Skywalker of this trilogy and he was not happy that he was not..." or something like that. I will have to go back and watch. It struck me because I keenly remember during TLJ celebration panel Kathleen Kennedy kind of correcting Mark after he said that he is a minor character now. Telling him that Luke is important in the story also. I remember finding that moment really odd, that I sensed it could have to do with behind the scenes stuff. After seeing the trilogy, seeing how during the rehearsals that Mark seemed upset and then comments by Rian and Ram. Yep, he obviously was much more unhappy with Luke's direction than he let on during his press tours. He is a professional and did his job but I found that interesting.
@Birdwoman

I was at the panel at SWC live and in person, and if memory serves, Mark didn't seem that upset. All he said was that he now was a supporting character passing the reigns on to the new generation, and KK interrupted him say no no Luke is still very much a main character in this trilogy!!! As tired as I was from being up all night camping out, it still struck me really strange because I didn't think what Mark was saying was odd at all. I expected him to have a Harrison Ford in TFA level of screen time and so I didn't think what Mark said was off base at all. KK's interjection is what made me go, "huh?"
@IoJovi

As you know, I was there with you all, and I had the same "Huh?" reaction. Granted, that was also in the marketing period where they were heavily pushing the "the relationship between Rey and Luke is the beating heart of the story" angle. (I mean, geez, Remember Daisy saying that "Luke" would give her away at her wedding?)

@ISeeAnIsland

Yeah, the Luke giving Rey away at her wedding was weird, because we all know it's going to be rather Chewie :p
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Re: Discussion: Luke Skywalker in TLJ

Post by snufkin on Mon 14 May 2018, 4:06 pm

It’s weird considering that he busted up Smut Hut and their symbolic Force wedding.

I can’t remember who said it, but if Carrie were still alive she probably would’ve smacked him over some of the comments he’s made. It’s normal to feel conflicted in revisiting something that was a big part of your life and seeing that things have moved on without you. But he has stuck his foot in his mouth a lot over this version of Luke - which will likely be remembered as one of his best performances.


Last edited by snufkin on Tue 15 May 2018, 1:47 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Discussion: Luke Skywalker in TLJ

Post by Birdwoman on Tue 15 May 2018, 12:08 pm

I have to say, Rian and Ram were very respectful of Mark, they seem to give him the space to be upset over how Luke was written.

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Luke entry on databank updated

Post by DeeBee on Thu 17 May 2018, 1:07 am

Hi all,
the starwars databank has updated it's main entry for Luke with one new section I'll share it here:


source: https://www.starwars.com/databank/luke-skywalker

I'm not finding any surprises here -all pretty much expected... but I LOVE this image they chose!
Thoughts anyone?
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Re: Discussion: Luke Skywalker in TLJ

Post by DeeBee on Sun 03 Jun 2018, 2:02 am

hiya, In issue 2 of 6 of TLJ comic adaptation, I found something interesting and thought I'd share it.


In the comic - Artoo tells Luke about Rey's story and this is partly why he is convinced to talk with her and explain more of his stance in relation to the force.. (in addition to the leia hologram).
LOL it had not twigged for me that both Luke and Rey were drawn into the conflict, and their destiny through coming across a droid carrying sensitive information that needed their help getting said information to the resistance/rebellion.. lol this seems so obvious why didn't I see this before lol! haaaa..

Anyway.. you guys probably already found this connection, but I liked the way it says Artoo told Luke about Rey - as I think it possible all the history that R2 has witnessed across all nine movies is tucked away in his memory banks ready to tell. [would love it if he has filmed Anakin and Padme's secret wedding- he was there!!!]
I do wonder how R2 could have gathered so much information about Rey though. LOL maybe this is one of those things where thinking too much is not worth it haaaa.. Maybe Rey told R2 her life story on the flight from D'qar to Ahch-to?! LOL.. or BB-8 blabbed while getting to know R2. haaaaa..
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Re: Discussion: Luke Skywalker in TLJ

Post by guardienne on Sun 10 Jun 2018, 8:21 am

@snufkin wrote:It’s weird considering that he busted up Smut Hut and their symbolic Force wedding.

I can’t remember who said it, but if Carrie were still alive she probably would’ve smacked him over some of the comments he’s made. It’s normal to feel conflicted in revisiting something that was a big part of your life and seeing that things have moved on without you. But he has stuck his foot in his mouth a lot over this version of Luke - which will likely be remembered as one of his best performances.
@snufkin

i absolutely agree it's a great performance, i just also happen to agree with mark (well, with the implicit stuff that he hasn't said out loud). i don't think that's mutually exclusive. i also don't think any of the actors really dropped the ball, but hey.

i saw a comment on a video the other day that the broken old man hero thing had also been done in logan, and done so well! so we've got something to compare it to.

i don't really understand the controversy around luke. i never grew attached to him as a character, altho i have to say that him sticking up for his father is very inspiring still. but i didn't have particular expectations of who he should be and how and so on.

dishearteningly, for me, a lot of criticism of the character seems to get lumped in as 'fanboys not getting what they want etc' which may be true. i just didn't think the movie knew really what to do with him. this is my main problem with all of the movie, so prepare to be bored. (i really think johnson should have just picked up the story at a later time and left their first meeting to fanfic authors? it would have given everyone room to breathe.)

but the scenes don't really seem to inform each other and i found it difficult to parse why luke did what he did.

the people i have listened to, for what it's worth, aren't complaining that he hasn't got a hero moment, i think they are complaining that his actions are out of character. and .. yeah? dude goes out of his way to save his father but kills his nephew or attempts to anyway, without even having a chat? the movie in itself doesn't give me any way to really interpret his actions. so he starts teaching jedi, ben joins him, he's already a maladjusted kid (because??), ben has dark side vibes and then luke gives up.

i remember thinking (and posting) about how difficult it would be to tell a compelling backstory for this and i was right? because of time constraints, because you might need to cast a kid of the appropriate age to film those scenes? because establishing a compelling backstory takes skill? so, instead we get a half-arsed pov thing, which is supposed to draw the audience on ben's side, presumably.

the problem with that drawing us to his side, which is simply what i assume johnson was aiming for, is that we need to establish good character. ben basically lives as a good character (not in the good and evil kind of way really, but in the sense that he is a good person with good intentions and a moral code) because he's his parents' son. TLJ does nothing at all to persuade me otherwise. that there was a previously 'good person' in this young man who meant well. i don't mean to say that it's impossible that this person existed, i'm saying the movie does nothing to show me this. (in the event i think this is what fans have been doing, leia's and han's son, reluctant dark sider etc, the good character is conjecture at this point.) it's really important from a structural storytelling pov and i ain't no expert, but star wars to me is also not some avantgarde type story, this is pretty traditional stuff and you know why it's traditional, because the storytelling in itself works and we are trying to reach the widest audience possible.

the same is with the temple burning. the scene seems to flipflop. i made a thread about the metaphorical idea of book-burning and it was pointed out to me that ... uh, the books didn't burn? which, yeah, so, the movie badly wants to establish a new canon but can't bring itself to? is that what it says? the old jedi are the kind of people who would burn books, but the new ones wouldn't. i totally lack a convincing argument for what the movie, or johnson, or 'the auteur' wants to say with those scenes.

i get quite desperate for meaning.

so, my complaint isn't so much that he does what he does. that's fine. it's that i don't understand why.
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Re: Discussion: Luke Skywalker in TLJ

Post by DeeBee on Sun 10 Jun 2018, 10:48 pm

@guardienne wrote:
@snufkin wrote:It’s weird considering that he busted up Smut Hut and their symbolic Force wedding.

I can’t remember who said it, but if Carrie were still alive she probably would’ve smacked him over some of the comments he’s made. It’s normal to feel conflicted in revisiting something that was a big part of your life and seeing that things have moved on without you. But he has stuck his foot in his mouth a lot over this version of Luke - which will likely be remembered as one of his best performances.
@snufkin
i absolutely agree it's a great performance, i just also happen to agree with mark (well, with the implicit stuff that he hasn't said out loud). i don't think that's mutually exclusive. i also don't think any of the actors really dropped the ball, but hey.

i saw a comment on a video the other day that the broken old man hero thing had also been done in logan, and done so well! so we've got something to compare it to.

i don't really understand the controversy around luke. i never grew attached to him as a character, altho i have to say that him sticking up for his father is very inspiring still. but i didn't have particular expectations of who he should be and how and so on.

dishearteningly, for me, a lot of criticism of the character seems to get lumped in as 'fanboys not getting what they want etc' which may be true. i just didn't think the movie knew really what to do with him. this is my main problem with all of the movie, so prepare to be bored. (i really think johnson should have just picked up the story at a later time and left their first meeting to fanfic authors? it would have given everyone room to breathe.)

but the scenes don't really seem to inform each other and i found it difficult to parse why luke did what he did.

the people i have listened to, for what it's worth, aren't complaining that he hasn't got a hero moment, i think they are complaining that his actions are out of character. and .. yeah? dude goes out of his way to save his father but kills his nephew or attempts to anyway, without even having a chat? the movie in itself doesn't give me any way to really interpret his actions. so he starts teaching jedi, ben joins him, he's already a maladjusted kid (because??), ben has dark side vibes and then luke gives up.

i remember thinking (and posting) about how difficult it would be to tell a compelling backstory for this and i was right? because of time constraints, because you might need to cast a kid of the appropriate age to film those scenes? because establishing a compelling backstory takes skill? so, instead we get a half-arsed pov thing, which is supposed to draw the audience on ben's side, presumably.

the problem with that drawing us to his side, which is simply what i assume johnson was aiming for, is that we need to establish good character. ben basically lives as a good character (not in the good and evil kind of way really, but in the sense that he is a good person with good intentions and a moral code) because he's his parents' son. TLJ does nothing at all to persuade me otherwise. that there was a previously 'good person' in this young man who meant well. i don't mean to say that it's impossible that this person existed, i'm saying the movie does nothing to show me this. (in the event i think this is what fans have been doing, leia's and han's son, reluctant dark sider etc, the good character is conjecture at this point.) it's really important from a structural storytelling pov and i ain't no expert, but star wars to me is also not some avantgarde type story, this is pretty traditional stuff and you know why it's traditional, because the storytelling in itself works and we are trying to reach the widest audience possible.

the same is with the temple burning. the scene seems to flipflop. i made a thread about the metaphorical idea of book-burning and it was pointed out to me that ... uh, the books didn't burn? which, yeah, so, the movie badly wants to establish a new canon but can't bring itself to? is that what it says? the old jedi are the kind of people who would burn books, but the new ones wouldn't. i totally lack a convincing argument for what the movie, or johnson, or 'the auteur' wants to say with those scenes.

i get quite desperate for meaning.

so, my complaint isn't so much that he does what he does. that's fine. it's that i don't understand why.
@guardienne

Hi guardienne! I would love to dig into this and explore Luke's story in TLJ..
I agree that Mark Hamill's performance was incredible.
My experience of watching TLJ left me needing to process what happened with Luke. It did not come easily to me I think. It has definitely been a process for me to understand his journey.
My experience of Luke's story is that I'm still processing it and coming to understand it better. His story speaks to me in new ways.. and for me, I enjoy getting this from storytelling. I initially had no idea what to make of the final showdown with Kylo/Ben - because it was so unexpected - and multiple things were happening.. I've really enjoyed the process of engaging with this story and making sense out of it. Not that I would say I have found the right way to view things - only that I've come to understand the story in a way that works for me as a coherent whole.. that I find satisfying. I don't tell anyone what to think - I try not to do this!

I start with the assumption that I have all the information I need to make sense of Luke's journey. Even if it is a minimum of information. I think I have enough.

6 months after TLJ release, I can see that in hindsight, the storytelling could have benefited from Luke's story being more explicitly communicated in the movie - RJ overestimated what the audience would accept - especially with such a beloved character. Being sensitive to this would have been sage. I can see that maybe Mark Hamill's reaction was a bit of a red flag (even if how he went about it wasn't shiny behaviour on his part). Had this early warning been heeded, and more explicit communication of why Luke did what he did - maybe the story would have been the better for it. Still, the movie is what it is, and I accept it - and we now have additional content to add further to our understanding so it's great to come back to look at each character in more detail now with the wider content..

Have you read through this thread to previous comments guardienne? I'm curious to hear your thoughts. I've commented a few times about the various reasons or motivations Luke may have had at various points in the story. I might go back and refresh my memory lol.

Sorry I don't have time to address your comment more right now [there is sooo much to unpack in the bolded comment], but it looks like you've raised a few Luke-centric issues here guardienne...
1- Overall lack of coherence in Luke's character across TLJ (or maybe across the ST so far)
2- Obscured/nonexistent rationale for why Luke does what he does throughout [especially around the flashback/jedi temple]
3- Actions seem to contradict what is known of Luke and his previous behaviour
4- Luke not burning the jedi books
Anything else?
Hmm 1-3 all seem to be inter-related really... So, how best to explore this together? What if we start at the beginning and work our way through as his story unfolds.. would anyone else be up for that? I might go at a bit of a slow pace but I would enjoy visiting all the Luke content with you all if anyone else is interested? Or is this a pretty lame idea? lol.

Guardienne, as this is the Luke thread - I've focused on your Luke comments here. bye for now!

Whoo gotta run, I've used up my SW time! Hey

edited to add:
I've just read through this whole thread - and I've gotta say there are so many great insights! Lots of varying viewpoints shared here and discussed as well. It even looks like some of the points you've raised Guardienne have been discussed here - so I would be curious to hear your thoughts if you'd like to share.

This comment is getting a little long, but I don't want to double post. So hope this is okay. I'd like to share with you guys some new Luke content from TLJ comic adaption..
I thought this additional Luke POV at the end here was pretty interesting in terms of how Luke is viewing Rey, Kylo and himself.. here goes (issue 2 of 6) -the conclusion to Rey's first lesson:



Later, in issue 3 of 6 we see this idea further expanded - as we learn Luke's thoughts as he watches Rey training with the lightsaber.. here goes:



In light of this new content, I'm now thinking that yes Luke sees the similarities between Rey and Kylo/Ben. But - he also sees similarities between himself and Rey (the previous additional dialogue I shared about how he realised Rey's back story has similarities to his own further feeds into this idea too).

There's a lot more Luke-centric stuff I will share that I think is pretty interesting content.. but this comment is long enough so I'll pause here and come back to this another day! bye!


Last edited by DeeBee on Mon 11 Jun 2018, 1:54 am; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : added comment)
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Re: Discussion: Luke Skywalker in TLJ

Post by guardienne on Mon 11 Jun 2018, 2:39 pm

@Night Huntress wrote:But no matter what story Rian or any other writer would have came up with for VIII this "problem" would remain because JJ put him on that Island...and it wasn't like he was held there against his will. I don't know any really good reason for Luke to exile himself with the galaxy in trouble his nephew lost and his sister fighting an almost hopeless war. Nope

Don't get me wrong- I love JJ very much... but he didn't left the following writers much other choice. Or would the fandom have rather some very over-the-top idiotic constricted reason for him to be there? I don't know.
@Night Huntress

old post but i saw you ask that question before ...

i was of the impression that the story group had an outline for what they wanted to say in their trilogy? you saying that jj planted this on johnson makes it sound like the opposite. i mean, i believe they have no clue where they are going, i'm just surprised you're saying that.

and anyway, i'm not a writer but i had some ideas for how to tell that backstory. not as a movie, i gotta admit, because that is an unattainable level of complexity.

but i guess i would have told ben's back story a lot longer than what we are getting (and contrary to what @deebee says, i think their stories are intertwined and eliciting sympathy for one also kinda includes the other?) and i would have wanted to make sure that the audience understands that this estrangement is difficult for both of them.

we absolutely need to establish ben solo's good character. so far we have him murder and then doing more murdering and now he's even murdered his boss. wowza. so, we'd need to have a scene establishing that even if he's struggling with the dark side (and i'm assuming, for the story's sake, that the dark side is sort of similar to very intense feelings of anything, that he's simply someone who feels intensely and who finds it difficult to reign himself in, nothing particularly magical) that he's also kind and righteous. we have a tiny bit of groundwork laid for this with the 'murderers, traitors and thieves' line but we need to *see* it.

and we need to see that he is trying to be a good jedi.

(this is going to sound like anakin's story now, so)

and then we need an incident that challenges his ethics and luke's ethics. but luke makes a call that for ben is anathema to his values and that he equates with a betrayal. it's tricky because it needs to be something that from luke's perspective is also justified.

luke is a dude who doesn't know the meaning of too much, he can still feel responsible for his nephew falling prey to snoke but i don't think the attempt at murder is really useful or necessary.

and anyway, the incident, maybe on a mission?, is sufficient to drive a wedge between them and ben mistrusts luke after that. and he thinks what he teaches is a lie (maybe snoke helps with that) and the destruction of the temple is something that looks like ben was involved (but snoke set him up) and either way he sees no choice but to join snoke.

luke is beside himself, ashamed to tell leia but tell he does, and he exiles himself to understand what went wrong.

cue rey turning up on the island.

my other pet theory was that ben joined snoke of his own free will because luke was scared to teach him things that would expand his mind becaue of a thing he felt he needed to do.

then destroying the jedi praxeum would have been a matter of reformation gone wrong.

whichever, luke would go to the island to study the ancient ways. he doesn't need to be actively suicidal (that doesn't make much sense anyway) but he needs to think of himself as a shameful failure. i don't see how shameful failures need to turn into grumpy old arseholes, but that's not my call to make.

i think the problem with the woefully rubbish back story we are going with is that it gives me even more questions than it answers. and i don't mean that in the timeline sense, i mean that emotionally it doesn't add up. we don't know what ben falling to the darkness felt like and whether it manifested in anything at all, that was of concern. we are to assume that luke took the action he took because of that, so show us how powerless and lost he felt. show us how that seemed like the best and worst option.

show us how ben felt beyond ... startled? because what we got is a startled young man who then apparently turns all his anger towards some people who we never met and runs off.

this is very much reiterating stuff i said earlier and i apologise for the repetition.
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Re: Discussion: Luke Skywalker in TLJ

Post by DeeBee on Mon 11 Jun 2018, 7:43 pm

@guardienne wrote:
...but i guess i would have told ben's back story a lot longer than what we are getting (and contrary to what @deebee says, i think their stories are intertwined and eliciting sympathy for one also kinda includes the other?) and i would have wanted to make sure that the audience understands that this estrangement is difficult for both of them....
@guardienne
Hi guardienne, Just thought I would clarify/correct what you said which I've bolded - I actually agree that the stories of Luke, Rey and Kylo/Ben are connected - Parts of their story are interconnected - and some parts are unique to the character.. In my previous comment I shared new content that showed Luke was seeing himself in both Ben and Rey - so this feeds into this.
For me, in a Luke-centric thread, I prefer to keep my comments centered on Luke - I find it too easy for me to run off on the Ben perspective at times, so I intentionally focus back on Luke here - not saying anyone else needs to do this, but just explaining why I would address comments related to Luke - not comments related to Ben which may or may not relate to Luke.

Also, while I enjoyed reading your comments guardienne, your thoughts you've shared are a re-writing of TLJ -For me,  I approach things wanting to stick with the movie we got- and exploring that.. Focusing on the story the movie could have told but didn't is something I have chosen to not do. [But I appreciate we all think and see things differently]

My experience has been that- once I accepted the movie I got is what I got, and the film makers gave us enough to make enough sense of things to follow the plot  - I was able to pull together the threads of the story we got- rather than wishing for more, and I was then able to see things I wold not have seen had I not accepted it and chosen to dig deeper.
My acceptance of the movie does not mean that I got all the info I wanted, or that I think other SW content won't enhance the story.
And acceptance does not have to equal liking or loving either.
I accepted it, and then the liking, and yes for me the loving - followed!
As I said yesterday - Even now, with this new content that is being added, I continue to have new insights about this movie and these characters - including Luke. Just to be clear, I'm not telling anyone this is the right way, just that it worked for me..

I am continuing to mull over the new content I shared yesterday. It's really interesting to focus in on what Luke is thinking about himself. Luke's internal dialogue as he watches Rey - with the impetuous stuff? reminded me of how Yoda was viewing Luke in ESB. I watched this movie last week and I had not watched the whole thing in a very very long time. It was a revelation in terms of enjoying/viewing the ST. I just wish for ESB I had access to pdfs, comics,graphic novels etc. that make discussing the content easier. lol.

@guardienne wrote:
my other pet theory was that ben joined snoke of his own free will because luke was scared to teach him things that would expand his mind becaue of a thing he felt he needed to do.

You could share this idea in the predictions thread, we may very well have this be revealed in IX.
I think it is hinted at that Luke was afraid of Ben - Luke's telling of the final flashback shows us that Luke had begun to question/ have concerns about Ben's darkness (whether he should have or not is another conversation). It could logically follow that this impacted what Luke chose to teach Ben. There is also a hint that Ben thought Luke was holding him back (with that line Kylo/Ben says to Rey about Luke sensing her power as he had sensed Kylo/Ben's) - but this is only Ben's perception.. we don't know the full story.
I don't think we need to know the full story at this point of how Luke trained Ben as a Jedi, though sure-  I would like to know this. Maybe in time we will get more detail about this. But I'm also okay with leaving some questions up in the air a little, further content may give us these details one day.. For now, it is clear that Luke and Kylo/Ben ended up at odds - and that Luke made mistakes.. and Kylo turned..

@guardienne wrote:  i think the problem with the woefully rubbish back story we are going with is that it gives me even more questions than it answers. and i don't mean that in the timeline sense, i mean that emotionally it doesn't add up. we don't know what ben falling to the darkness felt like and whether it manifested in anything at all, that was of concern. we are to assume that luke took the action he took because of that, so show us how powerless and lost he felt. show us how that seemed like the best and worst option.
@guardienne

I think we got enough backstory to make sense of the story - of course I'd love more.. I love all that stuff, but what we got is enough..often from what we know of the characters and their actions we can surmise what an experience was like for a character - we don't need to have seen it or have it explicitly stated.
What did Ben falling to the darkness feel like for Luke (assuming you mean for Luke as this conversation is about Luke)?
I think we have content that speaks to this question - would you like to explore this further?
I think we were shown how Luke felt powerless and lost. You think we were not? Would you like to explore this further?

I think being comfortable with unanswered questions is going to be a personal preference. YMMV. I say go with what works best for you and will maximise your enjoyment of the movie/trilogy/Skywalker saga. After all, this is what we are here for no?
Getting comfortable with unanswered questions is what works best for me.
I've found that as I've dug into the content some of my initial questions have been answered (hoorah!). Also, getting straight in my mind what we can know, what we may know and what we can't yet know helps me to accept the story and enjoy it.
I have come up with possible answers based on the information I have - which I don't hold on to too tightly, but with further content in time I think some answers will become clearer. I see this as a story that is still unfolding and will likely be unfolding for the next decade.. I don't even think all questions will be answered with IX. I don't have that expectation.

So here's a question for anyone and everyone - maybe we can go back to basics here with Luke - Why was Luke on the Island in the first place?

I've gotta go and actually do my day job. lol. but I'm aiming to explore what we know about Luke and why he is there (other than JJ put him there lol)  from the range of TLJ sources, and then bringing it all together. [yeah okay, I could start a tumblr or whatev to do this but I don't have the time to learn it - and I love to discuss and engage with others about content..] Gotta run. bye! sunny
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Re: Discussion: Luke Skywalker in TLJ

Post by Birdwoman on Tue 12 Jun 2018, 12:41 am

@Deebee
This weekend I was spending time with a very close friend of mine. We have children that are young adults, pre-teen and elementary school age. She, of course has the adult child and I have the youngest. Our younger children love Star Wars and love all the new characters along with the old characters. With that said....
We spent a lot of time talking about how Luke's story arc really spoke to us as middle aged women. That we related to his defeat and failure....how we are facing our own mortality, struggling with parenting choices and feeling like failures as parents. Dealing with our own heartbreak and disappointment from our choices and loss of loved ones due to death and divorce. However, in the end, after getting help from counseling or friends, we stand up and face our failures head on. This is what Luke did, at least in my opinion....and it is beautiful. Luke's arc has become my favorite in TLJ. Who knew? I thought he was pretty boring.

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Re: Discussion: Luke Skywalker in TLJ

Post by DeeBee on Tue 12 Jun 2018, 2:04 am

@Birdwoman - this is soooo beautiful! I love this Birdwoman! thanks so much for sharing this. I feel the same way.
Yes we all fail and experience defeat.. we are all flawed - how we deal with this is where we can show true courage.

Luke could confront Vader, and confront the Emperor - but confront his own failure and what he did???!! I think for Luke this was the hardest thing to face of all (and thus why it is not inconsistent with his character's history).

Facing up to your failures takes the a lot of courage. Especially when your failures seems to produce galaxy-altering results and hurt the people you love the most. Ouch. now that is really tough to face.

About this line of Luke's to Ben on Crait: "I failed you Ben. I’m sorry."
I think maybe the hardest part of this wasn't the "I'm sorry" it was the "I failed you". It's so telling that he voices this truth.
It's so sad.. but it also makes Luke's decision to own up to it and face it and try to do what he could to make things right such a triumph. Beautiful stuff! I hope I can be half as courageous when I face up to my own mistakes!

There's some interesting additional stuff in the novelisation about Luke and his failure. I'll try and come back to this if I can. bye!
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Re: Discussion: Luke Skywalker in TLJ

Post by guardienne on Tue 12 Jun 2018, 12:36 pm

@DeeBee

What did Ben falling to the darkness feel like for Luke (assuming you mean for Luke as this conversation is about Luke)?
I think we have content that speaks to this question - would you like to explore this further?
I think we were shown how Luke felt powerless and lost. You think we were not? Would you like to explore this further?

hey.

i did mean luke and i meant *then*.

i don't recall anything in the flashback sequence that shows us much of luke's feelings. i reckon you are referring to luke as he is on the island.

the reason i experimented with what i would have liked to see is that may have been a more conventional solution but it would have given me more insight. or any insight. it's an exercise in what i think would be necessary, and it's probably rather artless. the thing about the OT is that we don't get s*** about vader other than what the characters tell us and that's minimal. and then we get three entire movies to talk to us about what went down. so i'm interested in how that going down could have been done but i can't imagine it being done well in the space fo tiny flashbacks. anyway.

we get narration and then luke being stood over ben. i don't recall the words, so.

i understand he may have been afraid but i would have liked to *see* that communicated in the movie, rather than told. this way we got two people telling their story but i'm not sure it actually made an emotional impact. i mean, apparently it did with some people.

i can endlessly speculate about what he was afraid of, but i'm not sure we get a hint, it's mostly conjecture at this point and i fail to see why another movie would go into this further, from anyone's perspective. i think this is all we are going to get. it wouldn't make sens to dwell on the past even more, and to explain endlessly. flashbacks aren't ever going to be terrifically good storytelling devices (i'm very grateful lucas so far has abstained from them) and what could reasonably be added.

luke was afraid because ben did a thing that is dark side? what would that be? show force powers? well, that's why he's there. he could state things that are dark side but we would then also have to understand what it actually consitutes. and all that takes an incredible amount of time that i think would be reasonably better spent going forward with the story.
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Re: Discussion: Luke Skywalker in TLJ

Post by DeeBee on Sun 17 Jun 2018, 3:01 am

Hello! It’s been a busy week and ideas about Luke in TLJ has been percolating all week! So many thoughts, I know I can’t share them all. Lol.
I finally get to reply to your comment guardienne!
@guardienne wrote: @DeeBee
What did Ben falling to the darkness feel like for Luke (assuming you mean for Luke as this conversation is about Luke)?
I think we have content that speaks to this question - would you like to explore this further?
I think we were shown how Luke felt powerless and lost. You think we were not? Would you like to explore this further?

hey.
i did mean luke and i meant *then*.
i don't recall anything in the flashback sequence that shows us much of luke's feelings. i reckon you are referring to luke as he is on the island….
I think many things can show us Luke’s feelings – the flashback sequences (how the first and last differ tell us much about Luke), What we know of Luke’s history, Luke’s decision to go into exile, his words, and actions on the Island etc. We may see things differently between us, but I think we have enough information to understand the story for Luke. Not sure if I should expand on this to address your comments?
@guardienne wrote:  …we get narration and then luke being stood over ben. i don't recall the words, so.

i understand he may have been afraid but i would have liked to *see* that communicated in the movie, rather than told. this way we got two people telling their story but i'm not sure it actually made an emotional impact. i mean, apparently it did with some people.

i can endlessly speculate about what he was afraid of, but i'm not sure we get a hint, it's mostly conjecture at this point and i fail to see why another movie would go into this further, from anyone's perspective. i think this is all we are going to get. it wouldn't make sens to dwell on the past even more, and to explain endlessly. flashbacks aren't ever going to be terrifically good storytelling devices (i'm very grateful lucas so far has abstained from them) and what could reasonably be added.

@guardienne wrote:  luke was afraid because ben did a thing that is dark side? what would that be? show force powers? well, that's why he's there. he could state things that are dark side but we would then also have to understand what it actually consitutes. and all that takes an incredible amount of time that i think would be reasonably better spent going forward with the story.
@guardienne

What was Luke afraid of? Are you referring to – what was he afraid of when he looked inside Ben’s head? I think this is vague, as is much to do with the force at times.. and how exactly a Jedi senses a darkness is a bit of a mysterious thing to conceptualise.
I saw the terror in Luke’s eyes and I heard the noises Luke heard when he looked into Ben’s head...
Here is the dialogue from the third flashback: [unbeta’d]
R: Is it true. Did you try to murder him!
L: Leave this island now!
R: Stop! Stop!!!!!
Did you do it, did you create Kylo Ren.
(they fight)
Tell me the truth.
L: I saw darkness. I had sensed it building in him. I’d seen it in moments during his training. I looked inside, and it was beyond what I ever imagined.
(flashback cries of anguish)
Snoke had already turned his heart. He who would bring destruction and pain and death at the end  of everything that I love because of what he would become and for the briefest moment of pure instinct I thought I could stop it.
(flashback- he ignites his saber)
it passed like a fleeting shadow… and I was left with shame… and consequence.
(flashback of Ben waking).. and the last thing I saw was the eyes of a frightened boy whose master had failed him.
(Flashback  - Ben wakes.. Luke: Ben No! the roof comes down)

I’m with you – I’m totally curious about what Luke saw during Ben’s training... And, what when he looked inside. [But I accept the force is often vague]  Looking back over the history of SW canon – we have other instances of people seeing or sensing darkness in others- this can be maybe an indicator of what Luke saw in Ben. Think of the times when people sensed the darkness in Anakin – Yoda, Windu, Sidious… or when Sidious and Vader sensed darkness in Luke.. we don’t really know what exactly they saw I think...
Whatever it was – Rey was right that Luke made a mistake in thinking Snoke had already turned his heart – and that a decision had been made..
The novelisation's description is really evocative - have you read it? Here I'll share... this is Luke's telling of the third flashback: (pages 185-186)
"Luke Skywalker looks down at his nephew Ben Solo—no longer a boy but not yet a man. He has come into his chambers, at night, and now stands over him. The Jedi Master’s eyes are closed. The Force is aboil with danger. Worry shadows Luke’s face as he extends his hand, reaching out with the Force—reaching into the sleeping Ben’s mind.
The boy remains still, his face untroubled. And Luke’s eyes remain shut. But he can see: fire, and ruin, and the sightless eyes of the dead. And he can hear: screams, and the howl of lightsabers, and the roar of explosions.
Darkness—expanding from this slim, dark-haired boy to shroud everything—and the cacophony of terror that will accompany it. Luke draws his hand back, as if burned. The Force around Ben has always been shot through with veins of darkness, but what he’s seen is beyond anything he’d feared to find.
Luke removes his lightsaber from his belt and ignites the blade, his eyes grave. But then he looks at Ben and the brief, almost unwilling thought is gone. He cannot bring his lightsaber down on his sister’s son while he sleeps.
And immediately Luke knows it is too late—he has already failed his student. Because Ben’s eyes are open—frightened but aware. The boy’s powers with the Force are already immense, and still growing.
And he is a Skywalker.
He knows what Luke thought.
He knows what Luke saw.
He knows what will be.
Desperate, Ben’s hand reaches out, not toward Luke but beyond him, to the lightsaber he has constructed. Willing it into his hand, its blue blade a killing blow aimed at his Master. Luke’s own blade meets Ben’s and the locked lightsabers buzz and spark. Then Ben reaches up toward the ceiling with his free hand, compelling the stones to come crashing down on Luke’s head."

-Wow. I love this... cacophony of terror... the force 'aboil with danger' - wow! I think this is more description than we usually get of seeing or sensing the force in others... but then I haven't read the novelisations of the PT or OT I guess!

I think it’s possible Snoke was involved with what Luke saw – either through influencing Ben or through influencing what Luke saw. Though we lack detail here we can at least know Snoke had a hand in what went down… there is a brief mention in the novelisation about Snoke targeting Luke – I shared it in the Snoke thread HERE if you are interested (don't want to double post it). We shall see if we learn more in IX! If not, I think one day somewhere in SW canon we will find out more detail of what happened…  

How the dark side is conceptualised is vague and a bit tricky and IMHO is changing slightly with the ST- Ben is a perfect embodiment of the dark and the light or something balance will be a combination of light and dark- not the extremes.. (this is my guess- but we'll see!)
– I think when Luke restarted the Jedi order, he was making the same mistake the Jedi order had been making – which was believing that the darkness was to be wiped out for there to be balance.. When it turned out Anakin wiping out the Jedi, and then wiping out the Sith is what brought balance. The extremes for a time were no more..
By the time Rey meets Luke on Ahch-to there are hints Luke has a different view of things – and has seen the errors of the Jedi order (and himself) – and he seems to see that darkness is part of balance when he is giving Rey his first lesson.. but he also chastises her for going straight to the dark when it offered her something she needed.. so I think putting all this together, with the little information I have- Luke is conflicted and still fears the dark… though he acknowledges it is a part of balance. I think we’ll be seeing how all this pans out in IX. So I don’t feel I have a solid grip on this part of Luke's story at this point.. [and when it comes to the force's story too – I think this is normal for star wars!] At least by the end of TLJ, Luke is seeing a future need for Jedi, and that his nephew can be redeemed (edited to add: and Luke seems to see the error in the old Jedi ways of extreme views of the light and the dark) – so in a sense he has acknowledge Rey was right, that Kylo/Ben still has a choice.
A lot of this has been on my mind because it is all connected to Luke’s history, and the Jedi order’s history. Luke’s history with the Jedi order is super complicated and though Kylo/Ben is his nephew, the context of the events that went down (between Luke, Anakin and the Jedi order) did IMHO play a role.. but.. gah… maybe too long to get into here.

@guardienne wrote:  the reason i experimented with what i would have liked to see is that may have been a more conventional solution but it would have given me more insight. or any insight. it's an exercise in what i think would be necessary, and it's probably rather artless. the thing about the OT is that we don't get s*** about vader other than what the characters tell us and that's minimal. and then we get three entire movies to talk to us about what went down. so i'm interested in how that going down could have been done but i can't imagine it being done well in the space fo tiny flashbacks. anyway.
@guardienne
-Whatever works for you go with it I say!
I’m amazed when I look back on the OT and how little the detail was that we were given! Lol. So true – we knew so little about Vader!
I think we still don’t really know the story behind Luke building a second lightsabre lol. I just go with it.. I think SW and the wider universe is such an interesting way of approaching storytelling. We just never know when some of those missing pieces will be provided to us.. or at least given hints at that can help us form ideas for what the details could possibly be. I’m sure for some this is infuriating or frustrating, I find it fun. I think I enjoy putting all the pieces together.. but I think SW also works even if you don’t engage with things on a deeper level. But I definitely view a trilogy as one movie in three parts – especially the ST. For me we are only 2 chapters into a 3 chapter story – and I am looking forward to see what further story we find out in IX…
Maybe you will get the details you seek in other SW media.
I’m awaiting the release of TLJ comic adaptation issue 4 of 6 – and the final flashback scene..

I hope it’s okay I’d just like to go back to this previous comment…
@guardienne wrote: the people i have listened to, for what it's worth, aren't complaining that he hasn't got a hero moment, i think they are complaining that his actions are out of character. and .. yeah? dude goes out of his way to save his father but kills his nephew or attempts to anyway, without even having a chat? the movie in itself doesn't give me any way to really interpret his actions. so he starts teaching jedi, ben joins him, he's already a maladjusted kid (because??), ben has dark side vibes and then luke gives up.  
@guardienne – this description in bold, is this how you see Luke’s arc?
Would you like to explore this? There are a few things in here that I would see differently…
Of course, if anyone else would like to – I’d be interested to hear your thoughts – we have over 500 days to explore this. cool!
Bye!!


Last edited by DeeBee on Sun 17 Jun 2018, 5:34 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : added comment)
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Re: Discussion: Luke Skywalker in TLJ

Post by guardienne on Mon 25 Jun 2018, 1:37 pm

@DeeBee

heyyy

you know you can expand on anything you like to expand on. i'm not imposing rules, i hope. i just write.

I think we have enough information to understand the story for Luke

no i don't think we do, or, the way i see it, i need to respond to this stuff emotionally, and i didn't ... therefore it is not enough. but it's not that i need particular facts covered. i needed to *feel* this, ok? i feel like you can sketch this stuff out very roughly (and there's never going to be so much time to do more than that) and then hope it hits the right notes for the audience to feel.

so, yeah, the bare bones are, luke senses nephew turning evil, decides to do something about it, that goes spectacularly wrong, he goes off in shame and guilt to die. no?

a) i don't think it gels with what we previously know about him (that he would go as far as kill a member of his family) and b) i didn't feel it.

i'm happy with whatever luke does, if it is written consistent with his previous characterisation. so, ... SOMETHING HAPPENS between ROTJ and TLJ that explains how he becomes someone who consideres killing a member of his family and that would be cool, but none of that is written into the movie. and maybe i would not find that satisfying either, who knows, but it would make some kind of sense.

the way it's written, there is now this huge gap and i'm not sure i have even heard a convincing theory of what the event is. i've seen people argue that he doesn't mean it, but i think that is just rationalisation.

anyway,

Think of the times when people sensed the darkness in Anakin – Yoda, Windu, Sidious… or when Sidious and Vader sensed darkness in Luke.. we don’t really know what exactly they saw I think...

you are right we don't get to see that.

let me tell you how i previously saw these things. (there's probably a bunch of rambling posts somewhere here about this by yours truly)

the prequel jedi i think are spectacularly short-sighted and in my view, their reading of the force is one-sided and restrictive. so, for them the dark side is something no one ventures into. it is taboo. so, when they sense darkness, they sense passion and fear and anger and all the other natural emotions.

palpatine is a dude who has embraced the dark side (obviously) and he senses these things in luke as well. but there is also immense compassion in luke, and this is what saves him from the deep end of madness because he doesn't seek power, he seeks to understand and to love.

so, by that view, luke would have sensed similar things in ben, but would have been familiar with them. so, maybe my reading is off and the dark side is a literal thing that ben dipped into and embraced, in which case he might have shown signs of psychosis (to translate it into mental health terms), but, like, so luke is now afraid of something he himself already experienced albeit in milder terms?

my idea of the dark side is that it's a necessary part of the force. luke even says something like that. that it's been corrupted and that it was simply impossible for ben to harness his powers completely just in the light. something like that. like, the power of darkness is in its repression but once you are honestly exploring it, it now longer holds that.

in a yin/yang taoist reading, it would just have the same potential just expressed differently. i don't think TLJ goes a long way towards equalising the sides of the force to be honest, or it's too shy about it and all we get is the brief moment of rey and kylo operating in unison. i would have LOVED to see this fully conceptualised and taken to a logical conclusion and i hope abrams will manage to resolve some of this for me. but if not, i guess i'll live as well.

I think SW and the wider universe is such an interesting way of approaching storytelling. We just never know when some of those missing pieces will be provided to us.. or at least given hints at that can help us form ideas for what the details could possibly be.

i like experiencing film emotionally, i guess. so i don't always need all the details and i don't think SW in particular is where the devil lies in the details actually. it is more melodramatic and sweeps you along?? i understand people take pleasure in learning from the EU as well, and that is cool. it feels like fanfic to me, someone filling in the gaps. the movies, for better or worse, are the only canon, if they don't allow me to sense the missing pieces, i'm not interested in having them resolved.

i feel like the ST provided me with a chance to experience storytelling in a sort of real time. no one knows what's going to go down, we are all along for the ride. but you need good storytelling to do that, and it doesn't pull me along, it leaves me baffled.

the hallmark of a good story to me isn't whether i know exactly what happened with luke and ben back on that day or a previous day or whatever, it's whether i can follow the beats of the story emotionally. and i think johnson lost me very early on. i needed it more sketched out to be able to go, oh, and be with luke's decision. actually i think it's not a bad ... twist, it's just massively underdeveloped. the movie doesn't really show you how to get there, it just presents you with a result.
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Re: Discussion: Luke Skywalker in TLJ

Post by SanghaRen on Mon 25 Jun 2018, 2:19 pm

@Birdwoman wrote:@Deebee
This weekend I was spending time with a very close friend of mine.  We have children that are young adults, pre-teen and elementary school age.  She, of course has the adult child and I have the youngest.  Our younger children love Star Wars and love all the new characters along with the old characters. With that said....
We spent a lot of time talking about how Luke's story arc really spoke to us as middle aged women. That we related to his defeat and failure....how we are facing our own mortality, struggling with parenting choices and feeling like failures as parents. Dealing with our own heartbreak and disappointment from our choices and loss of loved ones due to death and divorce. However, in the end, after getting help from counseling or friends, we stand up and face our failures head on.  This is what Luke did, at least in my opinion....and it is beautiful.  Luke's arc has become my favorite in TLJ.  Who knew?  I thought he was pretty boring.
@Birdwoman

I feel the same. I was not a Luke fan. I liked him as part of the OT and force mythology but never related to him and was always more of a Leia-Han fan, but I also like his desillusioned middle ager arc in the ST. And I enjoy what has put some fans to the verge of a breakdown i.e. that he has no children. As a childless aunt of two young men and one pre-teen, I relate to his feeling of responsibility towards his nephew. As an aunt or uncle you can also have a big impact on kids. When they have issues with their parents, they will look for support in other relatives and more often than not these are aunts and uncles. And when these also do not provide the support expected or needed, well, it can go from bad to worse.

Funny: Today I was looking at a selfie in which once again, I am not looking at the camera but at something left or right because my mind is always wandering off. And suddenly I had Yoda’s voice in my head saying “Still looking to the horizon, never here, now” and I had to laugh. I am actually more like Luke than I thought back in the OT.
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Re: Discussion: Luke Skywalker in TLJ

Post by Darth_Awakened on Mon 25 Jun 2018, 2:43 pm

While personally I have some problems with Luke's arc in TLJ ,t Luke considering killing a family member for a moment  is not one of them.

Because Luke all ready considered  killing a family member before- his father  during the duel in ROTJ - when Vader baits him about his sister.
That's too much for Luke and he goes on Vader in full force. Only after Vader is defeated and Luke sees the vires of Vader's mechanical hand and by realizing he is becoming exactly like him he stops.

I think that Rian's intention was to show how the dark side is always here - looming above everyone.

Of course, I don't want to suggest to anyone to like or accept my POV on this - but that's exactly how I explained the supposed change in Luke's character.
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