Discussion: Luke Skywalker in TLJ

Page 2 of 5 Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next

Go down

Re: Discussion: Luke Skywalker in TLJ

Post by snufkin on Tue 19 Dec 2017, 8:59 pm

@Kylo Men wrote:I didn't think Hamill was very good.

@Kylo Men - He was definitely going for something? Maybe it's like how I saw Dr. Zhivago a million times as a kid so Ben/Kylo = Pasha/Strelnikov in my mind, this version of Luke, especially cleaned up at the end, was like Kid Shelleen in Cat Ballou. I'll have to see it again, but it almost felt like he was trying to play it like a Lee Marvin character.

avatar
snufkin
Force Ghost
Force Ghost

Messages : 7675
Likes : 34816
Date d'inscription : 2016-04-16
Localisation : it's in the chorus of Pavement's "Unfair"

Back to top Go down

Re: Discussion: Luke Skywalker in TLJ

Post by snufkin on Tue 19 Dec 2017, 9:18 pm

@Kylo Men wrote:I didn't think Hamill was very good.

@Kylo Men - He was definitely going for something? Maybe it's like how I saw Dr. Zhivago a million times as a kid so Ben/Kylo = Pasha/Strelnikov in my mind, this version of Luke, especially cleaned up at the end, was like Kid Shelleen in Cat Ballou. I'll have to see it again, but it almost felt like he was trying to play it like a Lee Marvin character.
avatar
snufkin
Force Ghost
Force Ghost

Messages : 7675
Likes : 34816
Date d'inscription : 2016-04-16
Localisation : it's in the chorus of Pavement's "Unfair"

Back to top Go down

Re: Discussion: Luke Skywalker in TLJ

Post by LadyHa on Thu 21 Dec 2017, 9:37 pm

I've seen a number of articles over the past day angrily declaring that "Luke would never give up," using Mark Hamill's own words to stoke the fire.  I disagree and find his story in TLJ very believable, because the Skywalker family was suffering from trauma.

I think that the Jedi Temple was destroyed by Ben about 6 years prior to the events in the film. (?)  So, I would think that, up until that point, Luke was the confident, sunny person we last saw in ROTJ.  He would always have to struggle with his weaknesses, including fear, but was a venerated hero for most of his adult life. (I've read some fan complaints that incorrectly assume Luke has been in self-exile for decades.)

Then, in his later middle age, he makes a mistake which results in the slaughter of children and a fate worse than death for his nephew.  Filled with shame, he recedes from the world.  I think we can infer from the TLJ that he never faced Han or Leia after this. By avoiding them, he never received their forgiveness, so he is in limbo. I don't want to bring up actual real world examples, but when a child dies or does something horrifying, families can break apart from the grief.  

In the end, Luke doesn't give up.  It takes a few years of grieving, but he finally goes to Leia, who forgives him, and he bravely confronts his mistake. Seems very Luke-ian to me.
avatar
LadyHa
Jedi Padawan
Jedi Padawan

Messages : 209
Likes : 1024
Date d'inscription : 2016-06-23

Back to top Go down

Re: Discussion: Luke Skywalker in TLJ

Post by snufkin on Thu 21 Dec 2017, 10:34 pm

OK maybe the production team has been lurking here, because we now have in print that some of the inspiration for the older, Ache-to version of Luke is Jeff "The Dude" Lebowski. And that there's a strong Coen Brother's influence beyond just Al Cody torturing Llewelyn Davis

'Last Jedi' Is the 'Star Wars' Version of 'The Big Lebowski' The Luke abides.

“I think of Luke Skywalker as a lot more circumspect than the Dude, who seems very oblivious,” Heinrichs said. “But, I do think that there is a little bit of a slacker aspect to the fact that Luke has really set himself aside from society and really just wants to be the hermit on the top of the mountain on the island away from everybody and everything that can create complications for him. You can imagine that there are crumbs of food in his beard.”

In The Big Lebowski, the Dude is drawn into a complicated ransom kerfuffle, completely against his wishes. All the Dude wants to do in the film is drink his White Russians and be left alone. In The Last Jedi, Luke “the Dude” Skywalker is dawn into a creepy budding friendship which he wants no part of, and just wants to drink his Green Alien Milk and be left alone. Both have giant beards and both seek a totally chilled-out lifestyle.
avatar
snufkin
Force Ghost
Force Ghost

Messages : 7675
Likes : 34816
Date d'inscription : 2016-04-16
Localisation : it's in the chorus of Pavement's "Unfair"

Back to top Go down

Re: Discussion: Luke Skywalker in TLJ

Post by SoloSideCousin on Thu 21 Dec 2017, 11:11 pm

Good grief, Mark Hamill sure isn't talking like he's got another gig in Episode IX, but maybe he doesn't give a sith anymore and knows they need him.

https://www.inverse.com/article/39643-star-wars-last-jedi-luke-skywalker-mark-hamill
avatar
SoloSideCousin
Force Ghost
Force Ghost

Messages : 4627
Likes : 22363
Date d'inscription : 2016-03-25

Back to top Go down

Re: Discussion: Luke Skywalker in TLJ

Post by ISeeAnIsland on Thu 21 Dec 2017, 11:41 pm

@SoloSideCousin wrote:Good grief, Mark Hamill sure isn't talking like he's got another gig in Episode IX, but maybe he doesn't give a sith anymore and knows they need him.

https://www.inverse.com/article/39643-star-wars-last-jedi-luke-skywalker-mark-hamill
@SoloSideCousin

Geez, Mark. We get it...but I think at this point, it's time for him to take Queen Elsa's advice:

avatar
ISeeAnIsland
Force Ghost
Force Ghost

Messages : 5561
Likes : 28886
Date d'inscription : 2016-03-25
Localisation : Seattle, WA

Back to top Go down

Re: Discussion: Luke Skywalker in TLJ

Post by shii405 on Thu 21 Dec 2017, 11:49 pm

LOL. He is as whiny as Luke. I find it endearing Smile
avatar
shii405
Jedi Knight
Jedi Knight

Messages : 438
Likes : 2967
Date d'inscription : 2016-12-23
Localisation : Tokyo

Back to top Go down

Re: Discussion: Luke Skywalker in TLJ

Post by SanghaRen on Tue 02 Jan 2018, 5:32 am

A nice opiniated article defending TLJ Luke. And obviously the only few comments are angry ones. Screenshots below.

http://www.scified.com/news/editorial---defending-star-wars-the-last-jedis-luke-skywalker

@FrolickingFizzgig just wanted to say I like your view on Luke giving Ben the chance to act out his rage with no further damage. The last image of Luke is indeed “See you around, kid” with teary eyes, but also a determined look. Can’t include a picture but you can tell he has not given up on Ben.







avatar
SanghaRen
Force Ghost
Force Ghost

Messages : 1605
Likes : 8215
Date d'inscription : 2016-03-28
Localisation : French living in Germany

Back to top Go down

Re: Discussion: Luke Skywalker in TLJ

Post by SkyStar on Tue 02 Jan 2018, 5:48 am

Eh from the point of Ben's redemption I think Luke did what he could do. He faced him and let Ben unleash all of his anger at him without allowing Ben to make mistakes in his pure bottled up rage. That led Ben to be broken but on his way to being healed. And that is something.
avatar
SkyStar
Force Ghost
Force Ghost

Messages : 1317
Likes : 6070
Date d'inscription : 2017-02-01

Back to top Go down

Re: Discussion: Luke Skywalker in TLJ

Post by Cowgirlsamurai on Thu 04 Jan 2018, 9:52 am

Sometimes...You're in the car on the way to work...and "The Spark" comes on...and you just start thinking about:

-Luke showing up on Crait to kiss his sister and give her Han's dice
-Mark telling Carrie that "No one's ever really gone."
-Mark's three kid's dressed in Resistance uniforms watching as Luke goes out to "face down the whole First Order," in a final bad*** moment.
-Luke, unable to save the nephew he helped screw up, at least minimizing the damage said nephew could have caused in a fit of rage.
-Luke peacing out on Ben, and life itself with "See you around, kid," to remind us all of Han's "presence" in this story.

...and you burst in to tears! Sad Sad Sad
avatar
Cowgirlsamurai
Force Ghost
Force Ghost

Messages : 1900
Likes : 9433
Date d'inscription : 2017-03-30
Age : 31

Back to top Go down

Re: Discussion: Luke Skywalker in TLJ

Post by motherofpearl1 on Thu 04 Jan 2018, 10:29 am

@LadyHa wrote:I've seen a number of articles over the past day angrily declaring that "Luke would never give up," using Mark Hamill's own words to stoke the fire.  I disagree and find his story in TLJ very believable, because the Skywalker family was suffering from trauma.

I think that the Jedi Temple was destroyed by Ben about 6 years prior to the events in the film. (?)  So, I would think that, up until that point, Luke was the confident, sunny person we last saw in ROTJ.  He would always have to struggle with his weaknesses, including fear, but was a venerated hero for most of his adult life. (I've read some fan complaints that incorrectly assume Luke has been in self-exile for decades.)

Then, in his later middle age, he makes a mistake which results in the slaughter of children and a fate worse than death for his nephew.  Filled with shame, he recedes from the world.  I think we can infer from the TLJ that he never faced Han or Leia after this. By avoiding them, he never received their forgiveness, so he is in limbo. I don't want to bring up actual real world examples, but when a child dies or does something horrifying, families can break apart from the grief.  

In the end, Luke doesn't give up.  It takes a few years of grieving, but he finally goes to Leia, who forgives him, and he bravely confronts his mistake. Seems very Luke-ian to me.
@LadyHa

I actually loved Luke in this....I absolutely can't stand Mary Sues, and Luke was never a saint. He struggled with the darkness throughout his youth, and sadly that led to his mistake....he believed what he saw in his nephew was a flaw in his character, like the darkness in himself, but it was actually Snoke. I wish someone would go up to Ben and say: they broke your heart. I think that's all he really needs to hear.
avatar
motherofpearl1
Force Ghost
Force Ghost

Messages : 2514
Likes : 10607
Date d'inscription : 2016-07-08

Back to top Go down

Re: Discussion: Luke Skywalker in TLJ

Post by Tex on Thu 11 Jan 2018, 1:41 pm

I thought this was a nice breakdown of Luke's character in TLJ and why the direction they took him in was the correct one. He also makes some nice parallels to Arthurian legend and to the recent Wolverine movie Logan. I don't know if anyone else follows MovieBob, but he also did a nice video on why TLJ was what the Star Wars franchise needed in order to progress as a viable property.

avatar
Tex
Jedi Knight
Jedi Knight

Messages : 583
Likes : 3552
Date d'inscription : 2017-05-07
Age : 27
Localisation : Houston, TX

Back to top Go down

Re: Discussion: Luke Skywalker in TLJ

Post by DeeBee on Thu 11 Jan 2018, 6:28 pm

Hi All!
I'm going to include this quote from the general discussion thread so this interesting point about Luke doesn't get lost...

@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:Really cool confirmations from Rian. Many on the forum called Luke projecting himself a particular way physically was all about getting Kylo's attention and you guys were right! It was definitely all about Ben in that moment for Luke. Very satisfying to see that Luke "fans" interpreted this scene quite wrong, lol.
“[Luke] is basically tailoring this projection to have maximum effect on Kylo,” Johnson explained. “He knows that Kylo’s Achilles heel is his rage, and so that’s why he kind of makes himself look younger, the way Kylo would’ve last seen him in their confrontation at the temple,  and that’s why he decided to bring Kylo’s grandfather’s lightsaber down there – the lightsaber that Kylo screamed at Rey, ‘that’s mine, that belongs to me.’” As far as Johnson’s concerned, Luke believes that Anakin’s lightsaber will have a much more visceral impact on the erstwhile Ben Solo than Luke’s own green blade.

But why did Kylo fall for his uncle’s Force Illusion when he saw Anakin’s lightsaber split in half right in front of him? Because, Johnson pointed out, he didn’t actually see it.

“We as an audience saw that… The truth is, we see the lightsaber split in half – Kylo sees a blinding flash of light and is knocked unconscious, and then Rey takes the lightsaber away before he wakes up,” he said. “So if you really want to dig into it and get an explanation, you can say that he doesn’t 100 percent know what happened to the lightsaber.”
http://ca.ign.com/articles/2018/01/10/why-did-luke-skywalker-use-a-blue-lightsaber-against-kylo-ren-in-star-wars-the-last-jedi
@FrolickingFizzgig

Thanks again FrolickingFizzgig for sharing this fantastic quote.

I can see in the general discussion thread that there is some discussion around this quote, and Luke's choice of how he projected himself, which I won't quote here as this would quickly become the longest comment in forum history.
@SoloSideCousin @ZioRen @Saracene @Cowgirlsamurai @FrolickingFizzgig - I've enjoyed reading your thoughts related to this scene and the quote..

I'm glad to have RJ confirm Luke's deliberate choice in how he projected himself, and to expand a little on that choice.
RJ doesn't spell out Luke's motivations... only that he was deliberate, and the knowledge he had based that deliberate choice on.

Why did Luke want to project himself in a way that he knew would provoke Kylo's Achilles Heel, his rage?
To be cruel? to just rub it in? to achieve the number 1 aim of cruelly distracting Kylo so the resistance can escape?
Here is where I think different people view this differently..
I'll try and share my own thoughts.. I hope I can make some sense of them. lol. And I certainly don't want to be telling anyone how to view the final confrontation..

For me, I frame Luke's deliberate, calculated choice of how to project himself as being in the interests of what is best for helping the resistance to survive, and also equally what is best for helping Kylo/Ben confront his past and eventually find his way back to his family (represented I think by the legacy lightsaber choice).

I am not a fan who views Luke as a golden boy who can do no wrong. and I loved his arc in TLJ - of failing and facing up to this failure..
IMHO Luke makes tough, loving choices here- but he is also wise and pragmatic.

I think the confrontation really has two phases:
1) the first provokes Kylo/Ben to anger - as Luke is distracting him... I think it also serves a purpose in getting Kylo/Ben to confront his hurt at what Luke did, and allows Kylo/Ben to express that to Luke. [Part of Catharsis!]  
Here, Luke brings out all the rage..
2) The second starts from the moment Rey finds the resistance - and all that is needed is moving rocks for her to help them, Luke's tone completely shifts - and he is 100% about addressing the past, and doing what he can to help Kylo/Ben out of love.
Here, Luke aims to start the healing of the past..

I think the shift in tone was to have us (and Kylo) see the confrontation as a power struggle showdown.. but we then realise it isn't really that at all- it is so much more complicated - and the moment the resistance is okay Luke's love for Kylo/Ben really shines through. This is why there is an element of triumph.. I needed time to process this final confrontation - because it did not happen the way I thought it would at all.. but I've grown to really appreciate the way it was handled.

I want to protect Kylo/Ben from his suffering and hurt - but it is something he needs to deal with to move forward. Luke was uniquely suited to confront Ben with this - he is not the one to bring him back.

Luke choosing to project himself as he was when Kylo/Ben's life turned in a different direction because of Luke's mistake was painful yes, but also effective and necessary - and I believe it was done in love. Luke may have been helping the resistance to escape, but I think he was equally acting in a way that would be most therapeutic to Ben, his healing and his future. This is why the tone is not as dark as it could be - and why there can be any sense of triumph here.. It's not a triumph over Kylo/Ben at all... it's a triumph of hope and love.

I think the choice to project the legacy lightsaber rather than the offending green lightsaber also underlines Luke's true intent here - it's not cruelty... It's to help Ben. It may have seemed cruel - but in his heart, Luke was full of love for his nephew. The love and the pain, it's all there: in Luke's eyes, in his tears,  and in his apology...
His love for his nephew informed how he chose to project himself, I think he chose to protect Ben from killing Luke, wiping out the resistance, the Jedi and truly descending into the darkness from which he could not come back from. And.. Luke succeeded. this is why there is a sense of triumph. The more I think about it, the more I can see it was the best solution in what is a really tragic circumstance...

Luke is not acting like Ben's choice has already been made anymore - and he is hopeful that his nephew can turn back. So he does what he can..

One final thought on the dialogue here:
[non-beta’d so don’t sue me..]
L: I failed you Ben. I’m sorry.
K: I’m sure you are!!! The resistance is dead! The war is over! And when I kill you. I will have killed the last Jedi!
L: Amazing. Every word of what you just said, was wrong.
The rebellion is reborn today. The war is just beginning. And I will not be the last Jedi.
(we see Rey lifting the Rocks.. hoorah)
K: I will destroy her. And you. And all of it.
(Luke turns off his lightsaber)
L: No. Strike me down in anger and I’ll always be with you. Just like your father.
(Luke leaves)

"I will not be the last Jedi"
- Hmm smells like foreshadowing!!!
I get a sense that Luke is not just talking about Rey here.. he could be potentially talking about Ben. Though at this point Ben would have no way of knowing that 'Jedi' as Luke uses it here no longer means the 'Jedi' as Ben was taught Jedi were.. so it is quite possible as a future balanced force user, Ben could be considered a 'Jedi'.
It may be that understanding of both light and dark is ideal in the new Jedi. Thoughts anyone?
avatar
DeeBee
Jedi Master
Jedi Master

Messages : 888
Likes : 2486
Date d'inscription : 2017-10-20
Localisation : The Unknown Regions :)

Back to top Go down

Re: Discussion: Luke Skywalker in TLJ

Post by motherofpearl1 on Fri 12 Jan 2018, 12:04 am

@DeeBee wrote:Hi All!
I'm going to include this quote from the general discussion thread so this interesting point about Luke doesn't get lost...

@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:Really cool confirmations from Rian. Many on the forum called Luke projecting himself a particular way physically was all about getting Kylo's attention and you guys were right! It was definitely all about Ben in that moment for Luke. Very satisfying to see that Luke "fans" interpreted this scene quite wrong, lol.
“[Luke] is basically tailoring this projection to have maximum effect on Kylo,” Johnson explained. “He knows that Kylo’s Achilles heel is his rage, and so that’s why he kind of makes himself look younger, the way Kylo would’ve last seen him in their confrontation at the temple,  and that’s why he decided to bring Kylo’s grandfather’s lightsaber down there – the lightsaber that Kylo screamed at Rey, ‘that’s mine, that belongs to me.’” As far as Johnson’s concerned, Luke believes that Anakin’s lightsaber will have a much more visceral impact on the erstwhile Ben Solo than Luke’s own green blade.

But why did Kylo fall for his uncle’s Force Illusion when he saw Anakin’s lightsaber split in half right in front of him? Because, Johnson pointed out, he didn’t actually see it.

“We as an audience saw that… The truth is, we see the lightsaber split in half – Kylo sees a blinding flash of light and is knocked unconscious, and then Rey takes the lightsaber away before he wakes up,” he said. “So if you really want to dig into it and get an explanation, you can say that he doesn’t 100 percent know what happened to the lightsaber.”
http://ca.ign.com/articles/2018/01/10/why-did-luke-skywalker-use-a-blue-lightsaber-against-kylo-ren-in-star-wars-the-last-jedi
@FrolickingFizzgig

Thanks again FrolickingFizzgig for sharing this fantastic quote.

I can see in the general discussion thread that there is some discussion around this quote, and Luke's choice of how he projected himself, which I won't quote here as this would quickly become the longest comment in forum history.
@SoloSideCousin @ZioRen @Saracene @Cowgirlsamurai @FrolickingFizzgig - I've enjoyed reading your thoughts related to this scene and the quote..

I'm glad to have RJ confirm Luke's deliberate choice in how he projected himself, and to expand a little on that choice.
RJ doesn't spell out Luke's motivations... only that he was deliberate, and the knowledge he had based that deliberate choice on.

Why did Luke want to project himself in a way that he knew would provoke Kylo's Achilles Heel, his rage?
To be cruel? to just rub it in? to achieve the number 1 aim of cruelly distracting Kylo so the resistance can escape?
Here is where I think different people view this differently..
I'll try and share my own thoughts.. I hope I can make some sense of them. lol. And I certainly don't want to be telling anyone how to view the final confrontation..

For me, I frame Luke's deliberate, calculated choice of how to project himself as being in the interests of what is best for helping the resistance to survive, and also equally what is best for helping Kylo/Ben confront his past and eventually find his way back to his family (represented I think by the legacy lightsaber choice).

I am not a fan who views Luke as a golden boy who can do no wrong. and I loved his arc in TLJ - of failing and facing up to this failure..
IMHO Luke makes tough, loving choices here- but he is also wise and pragmatic.

I think the confrontation really has two phases:
1) the first provokes Kylo/Ben to anger - as Luke is distracting him... I think it also serves a purpose in getting Kylo/Ben to confront his hurt at what Luke did, and allows Kylo/Ben to express that to Luke. [Part of Catharsis!]  
Here, Luke brings out all the rage..
2) The second starts from the moment Rey finds the resistance - and all that is needed is moving rocks for her to help them, Luke's tone completely shifts - and he is 100% about addressing the past, and doing what he can to help Kylo/Ben out of love.
Here, Luke aims to start the healing of the past..

I think the shift in tone was to have us (and Kylo) see the confrontation as a power struggle showdown.. but we then realise it isn't really that at all- it is so much more complicated - and the moment the resistance is okay Luke's love for Kylo/Ben really shines through. This is why there is an element of triumph.. I needed time to process this final confrontation - because it did not happen the way I thought it would at all.. but I've grown to really appreciate the way it was handled.

I want to protect Kylo/Ben from his suffering and hurt - but it is something he needs to deal with to move forward. Luke was uniquely suited to confront Ben with this - he is not the one to bring him back.

Luke choosing to project himself as he was when Kylo/Ben's life turned in a different direction because of Luke's mistake was painful yes, but also effective and necessary - and I believe it was done in love. Luke may have been helping the resistance to escape, but I think he was equally acting in a way that would be most therapeutic to Ben, his healing and his future. This is why the tone is not as dark as it could be - and why there can be any sense of triumph here.. It's not a triumph over Kylo/Ben at all... it's a triumph of hope and love.

I think the choice to project the legacy lightsaber rather than the offending green lightsaber also underlines Luke's true intent here - it's not cruelty... It's to help Ben. It may have seemed cruel - but in his heart, Luke was full of love for his nephew. The love and the pain, it's all there: in Luke's eyes, in his tears,  and in his apology...
His love for his nephew informed how he chose to project himself, I think he chose to protect Ben from killing Luke, wiping out the resistance, the Jedi and truly descending into the darkness from which he could not come back from. And.. Luke succeeded. this is why there is a sense of triumph. The more I think about it, the more I can see it was the best solution in what is a really tragic circumstance...

Luke is not acting like Ben's choice has already been made anymore - and he is hopeful that his nephew can turn back. So he does what he can..

One final thought on the dialogue here:
[non-beta’d so don’t sue me..]
L: I failed you Ben. I’m sorry.
K: I’m sure you are!!! The resistance is dead! The war is over! And when I kill you. I will have killed the last Jedi!
L: Amazing. Every word of what you just said, was wrong.
The rebellion is reborn today. The war is just beginning. And I will not be the last Jedi.
(we see Rey lifting the Rocks.. hoorah)
K: I will destroy her. And you. And all of it.
(Luke turns off his lightsaber)
L: No. Strike me down in anger and I’ll always be with you. Just like your father.
(Luke leaves)

"I will not be the last Jedi"
- Hmm smells like foreshadowing!!!
I get a sense that Luke is not just talking about Rey here.. he could be potentially talking about Ben. Though at this point Ben would have no way of knowing that 'Jedi' as Luke uses it here no longer means the 'Jedi' as Ben was taught Jedi were.. so it is quite possible as a future balanced force user, Ben could be considered a 'Jedi'.
It may be that understanding of both light and dark is ideal in the new Jedi. Thoughts anyone?
@DeeBee

I had that impression too. And I cant help but think that what are almost Lukes last words to Kylo are so different from what Obi Wan said to Darth Vader: "IF YOU STRIKE ME DOWN I WILL ONLY BECOME MORE POWERFUL" whereas Luke says: "YOUR FATHER AND I WILL ALWAYS BE WITH YOU" .The former is essentially a warning....the latter seems more like a blessing. The gentle smile on Luke's face says it all.
avatar
motherofpearl1
Force Ghost
Force Ghost

Messages : 2514
Likes : 10607
Date d'inscription : 2016-07-08

Back to top Go down

Re: Discussion: Luke Skywalker in TLJ

Post by Night Huntress on Fri 12 Jan 2018, 1:28 am

@DeeBee

Yes, I agree!!! I know many rubbed the confrontation between Luke and Kylo the wrong way. Saying Luke has been cruel and nasty to his nephew.
I never saw it that way - not even during my first viewing when I was upset and very sensitive about what's happening on screen.

He was presenting Ben kind of a "punching bag" to let out all his anger.
And he is angry alright... Rolling Eyes
When Luke said "I failed you Ben, I'm sorry!" I'm sure he meant it on a personal level. For everything he did wrong - thinking about murdering him, being a bad teacher unable to help him and for disappearing after running away from his responsibility.
But Ben thinks he means his only sorry because of the greater good- the resistance, the war, the Jedi.
That's how angry, neglected and bitter he is- if you think about it, that speaks volumes about how it must have been for him as a child / teenager.

What Lukes said next shouldn't be taken literally in my opinion.

The rebellion is reborn today - really? When nobody even answers to Leia's distress call? No, I think he meant it within people's head, the FO and yes even in Ben himself. And I mean didn't Ben just killed Snoke ? Wasn't that also an act of rebellion against his abuser?
The war is just beginning. we know the resistance has lost literally everything- they have no resources to start a war...they all fit on the MF. So maybe he meant something else? A war within the FO or an uprising on the oppressed systems?
I will not be the last Jedi. Yes, I know they cut to Rey after he said that- but I mentioned in another threat I think he also meant Ben...and he didn't say "it's time for the Jedi to end" for nothing..."its time for the Jedi to end like they were before...arrogant, narrow-minded, blind."

I think we have to learn not to take everything so literally in SW.
avatar
Night Huntress
Force Ghost
Force Ghost

Messages : 1537
Likes : 7271
Date d'inscription : 2017-08-24
Age : 35
Localisation : Switzerland

Back to top Go down

Re: Discussion: Luke Skywalker in TLJ

Post by motherofpearl1 on Fri 12 Jan 2018, 2:54 am

@Night Huntress wrote:@DeeBee

Yes, I agree!!! I know many rubbed the confrontation between Luke and Kylo the wrong way. Saying Luke has been cruel and nasty to his nephew.
I never saw it that way - not even during my first viewing when I was upset and very sensitive about what's happening on screen.

He was presenting Ben kind of a "punching bag" to let out all his anger.
And he is angry alright... Rolling Eyes
When Luke said "I failed you Ben, I'm sorry!" I'm sure he meant it on a personal level. For everything he did wrong - thinking about murdering him, being a bad teacher unable to help him and for disappearing after running away from his responsibility.
But Ben thinks he means his only sorry because of the greater good- the resistance, the war, the Jedi.
That's how angry, neglected and bitter he is- if you think about it, that speaks volumes about how it must have been for him as a child / teenager.

What Lukes said next shouldn't be taken literally in my opinion.

The rebellion is reborn today - really? When nobody even answers to Leia's distress call? No, I think he meant it within people's head, the FO and yes even in Ben himself. And I mean didn't Ben just killed Snoke ? Wasn't that also an act of rebellion against his abuser?
The war is just beginning. we know the resistance has lost literally everything- they have no resources to start a war...they all fit on the MF. So maybe he meant something else? A war within the FO or an uprising on the oppressed systems?
I will not be the last Jedi. Yes, I know they cut to Rey after he said that- but I mentioned in another threat I think he also meant Ben...and he didn't say "it's time for the Jedi to end" for nothing..."its time for the Jedi to end like they were before...arrogant, narrow-minded, blind."

I think we have to learn not to take everything so literally in SW.
@Night Huntress

Ooh those are interesting points....off topic but one thing I find interesting. Just exactly how old was Ben when Luke tried to kill him,because it was said he was 23 when he ’turned’ but in TLJ he only looked about 17 or 18...and Luke referred to him as a ’boy’. confused
avatar
motherofpearl1
Force Ghost
Force Ghost

Messages : 2514
Likes : 10607
Date d'inscription : 2016-07-08

Back to top Go down

Re: Discussion: Luke Skywalker in TLJ

Post by Night Huntress on Fri 12 Jan 2018, 4:20 am

@motherofpearl1 wrote:
@Night Huntress
Ooh those are interesting points....off topic but one thing I find interesting. Just exactly how old was Ben when Luke tried to kill him,because it was said he was 23 when he ’turned’ but in TLJ he only looked about 17 or 18...and Luke referred to him as a ’boy’. confused
@motherofpearl1

well, the timeline is very...inconsistent in the new canon. I'm not sure if they originally planned for Ben to be 23 when he turned but decided later to keep the his age and the exact time vague for...reasons.  Rolling Eyes
In Bloodline, which happens 6 years before TFA, Leia haven't heard anything from Luke & Ben for a while...we assumed before TLJ was released that he hadn't turned to the dark then, and that the reveal of Vader being his Grandfather contributed in his fall.
Now I'm not so sure anymore... I think it was Pablo who twittered to exactly that kind of question (Ben looking much younger in the flashback) that we only know Leia hasn't heard anything from her Son & Brother in Bloodline for a long time. So it's possible that incident already happened - although I don't know if it's believable that Leia haven't heard anything for so many years and don't worry or start looking for them...so I'm confused  Confus
Because I agree- from the wording and how they made Adam look in that flashback he appears younger than 23.
avatar
Night Huntress
Force Ghost
Force Ghost

Messages : 1537
Likes : 7271
Date d'inscription : 2017-08-24
Age : 35
Localisation : Switzerland

Back to top Go down

Re: Discussion: Luke Skywalker in TLJ

Post by Starliteprism on Fri 12 Jan 2018, 3:47 pm

One thing that pops in mind for me is what prompts Luke to force project anyway? Was there a sort of indirect inspiration in seeing Kylo Ren/Ben sat across from Rey in the hut and he would of course be well aware, as Ben mentioned in the first forcebond sess, that force projection at this level can kill you. Did Luke ever question the connection that Rey and Ben seem to have, raw strength and catching them in the hut together having a moment.

Also Kylo/Ben must be aware that Luke passed on, at the end, along with the dice disappearing and/or maybe he also went into that room and felt the inclination to kneel out of a strange sort of grief. He probably did want to chat with Rey, too.
avatar
Starliteprism
Jedi Knight
Jedi Knight

Messages : 501
Likes : 1540
Date d'inscription : 2017-11-17
Localisation : United Kingdom

Back to top Go down

Re: Discussion: Luke Skywalker in TLJ

Post by DeeBee on Sat 13 Jan 2018, 10:24 pm

@motherofpearl1 wrote:

I had that impression too. And I cant help but think that what are almost Lukes last words to Kylo are so different from what Obi Wan said to Darth Vader: "IF YOU STRIKE ME DOWN I WILL ONLY BECOME MORE POWERFUL" whereas Luke says: "YOUR FATHER AND I WILL ALWAYS BE WITH YOU" .The former is essentially a warning....the latter seems more like a blessing. The gentle smile on Luke's face says it all.
@motherofpearl1

Love this!! Yes comparing to the other confrontations says so much Smile
avatar
DeeBee
Jedi Master
Jedi Master

Messages : 888
Likes : 2486
Date d'inscription : 2017-10-20
Localisation : The Unknown Regions :)

Back to top Go down

Re: Discussion: Luke Skywalker in TLJ

Post by DeeBee on Sat 13 Jan 2018, 10:46 pm

@Starliteprism wrote:One thing that pops in mind for me is what prompts Luke to force project anyway? Was there a sort of indirect inspiration in seeing Kylo Ren/Ben sat across from Rey in the hut and he would of course be well aware, as Ben mentioned in the first forcebond sess, that force projection at this level can kill you. Did Luke ever question the connection that Rey and Ben seem to have, raw strength and catching them in the hut together having a moment.

Also Kylo/Ben must be aware that Luke passed on, at the end, along with the dice disappearing and/or maybe he also went into that room and felt the inclination to kneel out of a strange sort of grief. He probably did want to chat with Rey, too.
@Starliteprism

Hiya Starliteprism, what a fantastic question.
I've been continuing to ponder the confrontation since I commented about this the other day.
In my last comment I mentioned how choosing to project himself was a safe guard - it protected Kylo from killing Luke.
It gave Luke more control over the situation overall.
If real Luke had showed up all the blasts would have gotten him Wink

I think there may be practical reasons Luke didn't physically show up too. His ship had been dumped in the ocean on Ach-to - it seems unlikely it would still be functional, so how could he have flown to Crait on a space ship in time to be of use?
Okay he could have flown like Leia rofl. but err I suspect that projection was a better way.. and flying through space without oxygen would have left Luke in no shape to confront Kylo or be of any use Wink haaaa.. but I would have loved for Luke Skywalker to literally be - a Sky-Walker! rofl!!

I commented the other day that Luke had a number of things he simultaneously achieved through projecting himself and confronting Kylo - but there is something more I didn't bring up that came to mind later.

It relates to the final scene with broom boi and the other two slave kids is the slave kid recounting the story of 'Luke Skywalker, Jedi master' and his showdown with Kylo.. the kids are inspired - and they are given hope. And I think the vibe is this hope will feed the rebellion, and a future where people will continue to fight for freedom.
Here is where Luke's comment line 'today the Rebellion is reborn' comes in- by projecting himself and doing all these amazing things he has taken hold of that Luke Skywalker the legend thing which he was running away from in his self-imposed exile.
Luke the legend put on a fantastic show for the whole galaxy - which sent a strong message and which will inspire generations..
Luke projected himself and ensured the confrontation went down in a way that Luke and his message was guaranteed to be inspiring. There was literally no way he could fail. And.. this choice cost him his life.
Let's see, so to summarise what are the pay offs to Luke projecting himself for this confrontation?
Short term pay offs:
distracting Kylo
halting the FO
helping the resistance escape
helping Kylo in confronting his anger and his past with Luke
Luke asking for Kylo's forgiveness
Luke conveying his love for Kylo
protecting Kylo from killing Luke and descending further into darkness
protecting Leia from the grief of having her son kill her brother
Saving the Jedi so they can continue on and be reborn

Longer term gains:
The story of legend Luke Skywalker being spread throughout the galaxy - inspiring people now and generations into the future
The continuation of the Jedi
And.. helping Ben Solo to be redeemed.
[and if we are to go truly broad here - helping to bring peace in the galaxy/ balance in the force]

After all his struggles, Luke does end up deserving (and using for the benefit of the galaxy) that legend label that he so felt he didn't deserve (IMHO).

I bet I missed some.. anyone else think of any more?
avatar
DeeBee
Jedi Master
Jedi Master

Messages : 888
Likes : 2486
Date d'inscription : 2017-10-20
Localisation : The Unknown Regions :)

Back to top Go down

Re: Discussion: Luke Skywalker in TLJ

Post by thescavenger on Wed 17 Jan 2018, 10:30 am

https://medium.com/@hitRECordJoe/a-new-old-skywalker-253efda3809c

So Joseph Gordon-Levitt just wrote an essay on Luke in TLJ. There's nothing entirely new from what we've discussed before, but it's nice to see more discussion on this level.
avatar
thescavenger
Jedi Padawan
Jedi Padawan

Messages : 216
Likes : 1259
Date d'inscription : 2016-03-26

Back to top Go down

Re: Discussion: Luke Skywalker in TLJ

Post by motherofpearl1 on Wed 17 Jan 2018, 10:39 am

Regarding Luke Force projecting.....maybe it was just that without the Falcon and his Xwing he couldn't get off the island Smile
avatar
motherofpearl1
Force Ghost
Force Ghost

Messages : 2514
Likes : 10607
Date d'inscription : 2016-07-08

Back to top Go down

Re: Discussion: Luke Skywalker in TLJ

Post by MrsWindu on Fri 19 Jan 2018, 5:09 pm

I’m glad Rian addressed this issue as it did cross my mind lol
avatar
MrsWindu
Jedi Master
Jedi Master

Messages : 731
Likes : 4276
Date d'inscription : 2017-08-03
Localisation : U.K.

Back to top Go down

Re: Discussion: Luke Skywalker in TLJ

Post by Saracene on Sun 18 Feb 2018, 12:10 am

All I can say is, I'm thankful to Rian for "ruining" Luke, because he finally managed to make Luke truly interesting to me.

Luke was a very solid protagonist in the OT and I can appreciate the clarity of his character arc more in comparison to the (IMO) muddled job they've done with Rey so far, but I never really found him interesting outside of his dynamic with Vader. Bitter depressed sarcastic Luke is my favourite Luke Smile
avatar
Saracene
Force Ghost
Force Ghost

Messages : 1996
Likes : 12761
Date d'inscription : 2016-03-27
Age : 38
Localisation : Melbourne

http://yggdrasille.com

Back to top Go down

Re: Discussion: Luke Skywalker in TLJ

Post by Night Huntress on Sun 18 Feb 2018, 12:59 am

@Saracene wrote:All I can say is, I'm thankful to Rian for "ruining" Luke, because he finally managed to make Luke truly interesting to me.

Luke was a very solid protagonist in the OT and I can appreciate the clarity of his character arc more in comparison to the (IMO) muddled job they've done with Rey so far, but I never really found him interesting outside of his dynamic with Vader. Bitter depressed sarcastic Luke is my favourite Luke Smile
@Saracene

yeah, for me too - I still love Luke (and Mark...he is a sweetheart for me, maybe thinking before tweeting wouldn't hurt- but who's perfect? Wink )
I don't even think it's so much out of character... I mean he constantly had to fight the darkness in himself. And like I wrote in the Fan Fatigue thread maybe he was influenced by Snoke as well. Seeing the worst possible outcome for Ben and instinctually wanted to end it.
Maybe we learn more in IX - I'm not much of a FG fan but if he appears to Kylo (and I'm sure he will- if I like it or not) I hope they talk about that night and we can understand better what happened from both their perspectives.

avatar
Night Huntress
Force Ghost
Force Ghost

Messages : 1537
Likes : 7271
Date d'inscription : 2017-08-24
Age : 35
Localisation : Switzerland

Back to top Go down

Page 2 of 5 Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next

Back to top


 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum