Discussion: Luke Skywalker in TLJ

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Re: Discussion: Luke Skywalker in TLJ

Post by Darth_Awakened on Sun 18 Feb 2018, 3:28 am

@Saracene wrote:All I can say is, I'm thankful to Rian for "ruining" Luke, because he finally managed to make Luke truly interesting to me.

Luke was a very solid protagonist in the OT and I can appreciate the clarity of his character arc more in comparison to the (IMO) muddled job they've done with Rey so far, but I never really found him interesting outside of his dynamic with Vader. Bitter depressed sarcastic Luke is my favourite Luke Smile
@Saracene

I can approach this topic from the two perspectives - and I'am literally torn apart.

One perspective is being an adult whose education in literature did definitely leave some trace in analyzing every movie (or book).
From that point of view I'am 100% on board with TLJ Luke and his arc. And truth to be told that's the best performance from Mark not only in the SW saga,  but in his whole career.

Another perspective is being a lifelong SW fan (I must say that it applies strictly to canon movies - not the EU). And from that point of view I can see why the part of the fandom (Mark included) is salty.
Because there's the certain inconsistency when it comes to the character. I'll go that far and say that the thought of killing Ben is not the main problem - because it was just a thought (and Luke was never immune to those thoughts in any movie). The tragedy of that thought wasn't in the thought itself but in a fact that Ben didn't know it was just a thought - he was frightened to dead and reacted on an impulse.

My main beef is Luke's immediate reaction to leave everything and exile himself on Anch To - without second thought about his sister and her child. That seems to me very un-Luke and completely out of character we knew from the OT. It goes in the opposite direction of "Luke never gives up". Not to mention that it directly annihilate the main point of the his arc in the OT: Going against his mentors Obi Wan and Yoda that lost hope in Vader and ran away (it applies more to Yoda, because Obi was on some kind of mission on Tatooine to look after young Luke) and persisting in his hope to redeem his father.


I've seen a lot of complaints about Luke's arc on Twitter and elsewhere - from the most vocal and nonsense ones aka expecting of 60 years old Luke to wield his green lightsaber like ninja and destroying all existing villains in one strike to more legit and intelligent ones that actually hold some truth in it. But usually get buried under the pile of nonsense.
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Re: Discussion: Luke Skywalker in TLJ

Post by Night Huntress on Sun 18 Feb 2018, 4:14 am

@Darth_Awakened wrote:
My main beef is Luke's immediate reaction to leave everything and exile himself on Anch To - without second thought about his sister and her child. That seems to me very un-Luke and completely out of character we knew from the OT. It goes in the opposite direction of "Luke never gives up". Not to mention that it directly annihilate the main point of the his arc in the OT: Going against his mentors Obi Wan and Yoda that lost hope in Vader and ran away (it applies more to Yoda, because Obi was on some kind of mission on Tatooine to look after young Luke) and persisting in his hope to redeem his father.
@Darth_Awakened

Yes, I agree- I think that's more "un-Luke-like" than one fleeting dark thought of killing his nephew. But no matter what story Rian or any other writer would have came up with for VIII this "problem" would remain because JJ put him on that Island...and it wasn't like he was held there against his will. I don't know any really good reason for Luke to exile himself with the galaxy in trouble his nephew lost and his sister fighting an almost hopeless war. Nope

Don't get me wrong- I love JJ very much... but he didn't left the following writers much other choice. Or would the fandom have rather some very over-the-top idiotic constricted reason for him to be there? I don't know.
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Re: Discussion: Luke Skywalker in TLJ

Post by Riri on Sun 18 Feb 2018, 4:26 am

@Darth_Awakened

I know this is hard to not do - but if we continuously compare Lukes OT arc to the ST arc then that in itself creates issues. I'm saying this because Lukes relationship to Vader was so so different to Lukes relationship with Ben - yes we can apply some themes but when people say "but Luke never gave up on Vader" i just feel the two are incomparable because of the complexities in these relationships.

Luke had a huge responsibility with Ben, his padawan and his nephew, and this momentary lapse was ultimately the cause of Bens transformation to Kylo Ren. This is what makes that relationship even more tragic, intense and spiritually deep and ignites the ultimate shame Luke felt and why he went into a self-imposed exile because he felt worthless, and believed the Jedi have only caused more harm to the galaxy and were better off extinct. His third Lesson to Rey (a deleted scene) was basically Luke telling Rey that the resistance don't need Jedi as true Jedi try to keep the balance and therefore wouldnt interfere with scenes of injustice if they knew the threat would just get bigger. The Luke-Ben moment was his darkest hour and his biggest regret in life. He felt he was actually doing the galaxy a favour by leaving his sister and the reaistance behind.

The Vader relationship was actually more simple as there was none of that emotional complexitiy/history to THAT level so it was easier for Luke to see the goodness in his father.

I hope that makes sense Smile

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Re: Discussion: Luke Skywalker in TLJ

Post by Saracene on Sun 18 Feb 2018, 4:37 am

@Night Huntress wrote:But no matter what story Rian or any other writer would have came up with for VIII this "problem" would remain because JJ put him on that Island...and it wasn't like he was held there against his will. I don't know any really good reason for Luke to exile himself with the galaxy in trouble his nephew lost and his sister fighting an almost hopeless war. Nope
@Night Huntress

Not just that, but JJ himself explained why Luke was on the island, through Han's words; that one of his students betrayed him, and that Luke blamed himself and walked away from everything. And then finished the movie with the last shot of depressed Luke looking at the lightsaber like it's something awful he never wants to touch. Rian was left with the job of explaining the details of why exactly Luke blamed himself and what happened, but the general outline was already set in.
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Re: Discussion: Luke Skywalker in TLJ

Post by Darth_Awakened on Sun 18 Feb 2018, 4:44 am

@Night Huntress wrote:
@Darth_Awakened wrote:
My main beef is Luke's immediate reaction to leave everything and exile himself on Anch To - without second thought about his sister and her child. That seems to me very un-Luke and completely out of character we knew from the OT. It goes in the opposite direction of "Luke never gives up". Not to mention that it directly annihilate the main point of the his arc in the OT: Going against his mentors Obi Wan and Yoda that lost hope in Vader and ran away (it applies more to Yoda, because Obi was on some kind of mission on Tatooine to look after young Luke) and persisting in his hope to redeem his father.
@Darth_Awakened

Yes, I agree- I think that's more "un-Luke-like" than one fleeting dark thought of killing his nephew. But no matter what story Rian or any other writer would have came up with for VIII this "problem" would remain because JJ put him on that Island...and it wasn't like he was held there against his will. I don't know any really good reason for Luke to exile himself with the galaxy in trouble his nephew lost and his sister fighting an almost hopeless war. Nope

Don't get me wrong- I love JJ very much... but he didn't left the following writers much other choice. Or would the fandom have rather some very over-the-top idiotic constricted reason for him to be there? I don't know.
@Night Huntress

Oh I agree with you as it comes to JJ. The story was set that way already in TFA.
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Re: Discussion: Luke Skywalker in TLJ

Post by SoloSideCousin on Sun 18 Feb 2018, 5:16 am

@Riri wrote:@Darth_Awakened

I know this is hard to not do - but if we continuously compare Lukes OT arc to the ST arc then that in itself creates issues. I'm saying this because Lukes relationship to Vader was so so different to Lukes relationship with Ben - yes we can apply some themes but when people say "but Luke never gave up on Vader" i just feel the two are incomparable because of the complexities in these relationships.

Luke had a huge responsibility with Ben, his padawan and his nephew, and this momentary lapse was ultimately the cause of Bens transformation to Kylo Ren. This is what makes that relationship even more tragic, intense and spiritually deep and ignites the ultimate shame Luke felt and why he went into a self-imposed exile because he felt worthless, and believed the Jedi have only caused more harm to the galaxy and were better off extinct. His third Lesson to Rey (a deleted scene) was basically Luke telling Rey that the resistance don't need Jedi as true Jedi try to keep the balance and therefore wouldnt interfere with scenes of injustice if they knew the threat would just get bigger. The Luke-Ben moment was his darkest hour and his biggest regret in life. He felt he was actually doing the galaxy a favour by leaving his sister and the reaistance behind.

The Vader relationship was actually more simple as there was none of that emotional complexitiy/history to THAT level so it was easier for Luke to see the goodness in his father.

I hope that makes sense Smile
@Riri

I agree that Luke's post-lightsaber-over-sleeping-Ben behavior does make sense if you look at it in the context of a nervous breakdown/succumbing to massive depression following what he did. Depressed people do not think clearly and have serious deficits to their executive function. So making bad decisions post-incident would be part of the deal and could possibly make him think that his exile was for the best.

But unfortunately, the script undercuts this interpretation somewhat in a number of ways.

First, guilt and second-guessing is a huge part of depression. At the very least, Luke could have tapped into the force to check and see if he was wrong. The fact that he didn't shows that it wasn't just depression at play here. Instead, there was also a pretty destructive pigheadedness at best and extreme self-involvement combined with zealotry at worst that made him think his decision to exile himself was right-right-right, no questions asked. I mean is his insight so poor that he needs Rey and Yoda to tell him that he might not be handling this in the best way? Maybe it is. Skywalkers aren't great with the insight sometimes.

But the other thing that undercuts the straight-up depression argument was that he lies to Rey. I mean if he wanted to die, who cares what Rey knows? If he is that depressed and thinks that he is doing the right thing, why would he even put in the energy to lie? I think that there is more going on there with his lying and his frequently contemptuous attitude towards Ben Solo.

Also, the fact that he gets to the point where his initial reaction is to kill his sleeping nephew screams that something has happened to Luke prior to him walking in that hut. His nephew has not done anything yet. He can try to stop his nephew. The fact that his brain immediately goes to "killing" instead of "saving" says that Luke has already been profoundly changed at an earlier time, and not for the better, and whatever that change was, it affected everything he did after the Jedi camp hut incident. And like @Darth Dingbat said, we should probably get some information on that in the next movie.
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Re: Discussion: Luke Skywalker in TLJ

Post by Saracene on Sun 18 Feb 2018, 5:25 am

@SoloSideCousin wrote:But the other thing that undercuts the straight-up depression argument was that he lies to Rey.  I mean if he wanted to die, who cares what Rey knows?  If he is that depressed and thinks that he is doing the right thing, why would he even put in the energy to lie?
@SoloSideCousin

I think that, at the point when Luke lied to Rey, he's engaged with her enough to muster the energy to lie. She's piqued his curiosity, he's shaken off some of his lethargy and depression and decided to give her lessons, so he's not in exactly same state Rey finds him in.


Last edited by Saracene on Sun 18 Feb 2018, 5:48 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Discussion: Luke Skywalker in TLJ

Post by CienaRee on Sun 18 Feb 2018, 5:36 am

@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@Riri wrote:@Darth_Awakened

I know this is hard to not do - but if we continuously compare Lukes OT arc to the ST arc then that in itself creates issues. I'm saying this because Lukes relationship to Vader was so so different to Lukes relationship with Ben - yes we can apply some themes but when people say "but Luke never gave up on Vader" i just feel the two are incomparable because of the complexities in these relationships.

Luke had a huge responsibility with Ben, his padawan and his nephew, and this momentary lapse was ultimately the cause of Bens transformation to Kylo Ren. This is what makes that relationship even more tragic, intense and spiritually deep and ignites the ultimate shame Luke felt and why he went into a self-imposed exile because he felt worthless, and believed the Jedi have only caused more harm to the galaxy and were better off extinct. His third Lesson to Rey (a deleted scene) was basically Luke telling Rey that the resistance don't need Jedi as true Jedi try to keep the balance and therefore wouldnt interfere with scenes of injustice if they knew the threat would just get bigger. The Luke-Ben moment was his darkest hour and his biggest regret in life. He felt he was actually doing the galaxy a favour by leaving his sister and the reaistance behind.

The Vader relationship was actually more simple as there was none of that emotional complexitiy/history to THAT level so it was easier for Luke to see the goodness in his father.

I hope that makes sense Smile
@Riri

I agree that Luke's post-lightsaber-over-sleeping-Ben behavior does make sense if you look at it in the context of a nervous breakdown/succumbing to massive depression following what he did. Depressed people do not think clearly and have serious deficits to their executive function. So making bad decisions post-incident would be part of the deal and could possibly make him think that his exile was for the best.

But unfortunately, the script undercuts this interpretation somewhat in a number of ways.

First, guilt and second-guessing is a huge part of depression. At the very least, Luke could have tapped into the force to check and see if he was wrong. The fact that he didn't shows that it wasn't just depression at play here. Instead, there was also a pretty destructive pigheadedness at best and extreme self-involvement combined with zealotry at worst that made him think his decision to exile himself was right-right-right, no questions asked. I mean is his insight so poor that he needs Rey and Yoda to tell him that he might not be handling this in the best way? Maybe it is. Skywalkers aren't great with the insight sometimes.

But the other thing that undercuts the straight-up depression argument was that he lies to Rey. I mean if he wanted to die, who cares what Rey knows? If he is that depressed and thinks that he is doing the right thing, why would he even put in the energy to lie? I think that there is more going on there with his lying and his frequently contemptuous attitude towards Ben Solo.

Also, the fact that he gets to the point where his initial reaction is to kill his sleeping nephew screams that something has happened to Luke prior to him walking in that hut. His nephew has not done anything yet. He can try to stop his nephew. The fact that his brain immediately goes to "killing" instead of "saving" says that Luke has already been profoundly changed at an earlier time, and not for the better, and whatever that change was, it affected everything he did after the Jedi camp hut incident. And like @Darth Dingbat said, we should probably get some information on that in the next movie.
@SoloSideCousin

I definitely think we'll be getting more info about what Luke's been up to over the years because like you guys said him jumping straight into killing more towards his own nephew speaks of someone who's been profoundly changed by something or some thing he'd encountered during his travels.
There's just something in the way Luke behaves and speaks about/towards Ben that's not only regret at least to me.I mean compare it with Han and Leia- despite assuming the worst about their son you can see how regretful they are about what happened.With Luke there's regret mixed with contempt and you can feel that when he's talking to Rey about him.It almost feels like Luke thinks Ben betrayed him on some level kind of like Obi Wan with Anakin because he had pinned all his hopes on Ben being the next ''chosen one''.
It also begs another interesting question - did Leia know that Luke taking Ben with him wasn't out of purely good intentions but a desire to take advantage of his ''might Skywalker blood'' because Han clearly didn't know about it.

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Re: Discussion: Luke Skywalker in TLJ

Post by Saracene on Sun 18 Feb 2018, 5:46 am

@CienaRee wrote:There's just something in the way Luke behaves and speaks about/towards Ben that's not only regret at least to me.I mean compare it with Han and Leia- despite assuming the worst about their son you can see how regretful they are about what happened.With Luke there's regret mixed with contempt and you can feel that when he's talking to Rey about him.It almost feels like Luke thinks Ben betrayed him on some level kind of like Obi Wan with Anakin because he had pinned all his hopes on Ben being the next ''chosen one''.
@CienaRee

I couldn't really detect any contempt when Luke was finally telling Rey the truth about what happened, though?

We'll probably get more info on Luke in the supplementary material, but I doubt that the movies will revisit his backstory any more now that Luke's story is essentially over.
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Re: Discussion: Luke Skywalker in TLJ

Post by Riri on Sun 18 Feb 2018, 5:47 am

@SoloSideCousin

I have a feeling it perhaps relates to Luke reviving the old/dogmatic Jedi order, the same order that failed Anakin, the same order where Mace Windu confronted Palpatine with the intention of killing for the "greater good" as he was told Palpatine was the Sith Lord they were looking for. I mean Luke never married/had children so maybe he still believed Jedi should be celibate? I think the comics novels will explore these better. He then probably went to Achto and found the Prime-Jedi symbol and started to re-evaluate the failures of the Jedi order etc.

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Re: Discussion: Luke Skywalker in TLJ

Post by CienaRee on Sun 18 Feb 2018, 5:59 am

@Saracene wrote:
@CienaRee wrote:There's just something in the way Luke behaves and speaks about/towards Ben that's not only regret at least to me.I mean compare it with Han and Leia- despite assuming the worst about their son you can see how regretful they are about what happened.With Luke there's regret mixed with contempt and you can feel that when he's talking to Rey about him.It almost feels like Luke thinks Ben betrayed him on some level kind of like Obi Wan with Anakin because he had pinned all his hopes on Ben being the next ''chosen one''.
@CienaRee

I couldn't really detect any contempt when Luke was finally telling Rey the truth about what happened, though?

We'll probably get more info on Luke in the supplementary material, but I doubt that the movies will revisit his backstory any more now that Luke's story is essentially over.
@Saracene

It's a matter of personal interpretation of course but to me it was regret mixed with contempt.There's just a lot Luke assumes Ben did or felt even though he never makes any effort to find out the truth even at the end when he was confronting him.

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Re: Discussion: Luke Skywalker in TLJ

Post by Darth_Awakened on Sun 18 Feb 2018, 6:09 am

@Riri wrote:@Darth_Awakened

I know this is hard to not do - but if we continuously compare Lukes OT arc to the ST arc then that in itself creates issues. I'm saying this because Lukes relationship to Vader was so so different to Lukes relationship with Ben - yes we can apply some themes but when people say "but Luke never gave up on Vader" i just feel the two are incomparable because of the complexities in these relationships.

Luke had a huge responsibility with Ben, his padawan and his nephew, and this momentary lapse was ultimately the cause of Bens transformation to Kylo Ren. This is what makes that relationship even more tragic, intense and spiritually deep and ignites the ultimate shame Luke felt and why he went into a self-imposed exile because he felt worthless, and believed the Jedi have only caused more harm to the galaxy and were better off extinct. His third Lesson to Rey (a deleted scene) was basically Luke telling Rey that the resistance don't need Jedi as true Jedi try to  keep the balance and therefore wouldnt interfere with scenes of injustice if they knew the threat would just get bigger. The Luke-Ben moment was his darkest hour and his biggest regret in life. He felt he was actually doing the galaxy a favour by leaving his sister and the reaistance behind.

The Vader relationship was actually more simple as there was none of that emotional complexitiy/history to THAT level so it was easier for Luke to see the goodness in his father.

I hope that makes sense Smile
@Riri


While I do agree with the fact that Luke/Vader relationship is different from his relationship to Ben. Luke's ability to compassion and love which are without question the forte of the character (and can't be erased by aging) and more visible in his relation to Leia in the OT.
Again, I'am fine with the moment in the Academy. It was a moment of a dark side and nothing else it didn't ruin Luke's characterization and it did give very solid ground to the audience to feel compassion and understanding towards Ben. I find the solution that Rian came with very clever.

My problem is with Luke giving up to everything afterwords (and I can not put blame solely on Rian - because it was set up like that in TFA).
The Jedi hubris, Luke's believe in "mighty Skywalker blood" and his guilt and depression afterwords work fine for me on the rational level and it
would perfectly if there wasn't for OT Luke.

Though I need to say, that all of my ramblings is my personal opinion, and I don't make  a big deal out of it - I still think that Luke's and Kylo's story arc are the best part of the movie, especially when I compare it to the rest  (*cough* *cough* Resistance plot).
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Re: Discussion: Luke Skywalker in TLJ

Post by giaciak2 on Sun 18 Feb 2018, 6:13 am

According to my son (10 years old ) Uncle Luke is jealous of Kylo Ren-Ben Solo power. Very Happy ... new generation opinion
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Re: Discussion: Luke Skywalker in TLJ

Post by SoloSideCousin on Sun 18 Feb 2018, 6:20 am

@CienaRee wrote:
@Saracene wrote:
@CienaRee wrote:There's just something in the way Luke behaves and speaks about/towards Ben that's not only regret at least to me.I mean compare it with Han and Leia- despite assuming the worst about their son you can see how regretful they are about what happened.With Luke there's regret mixed with contempt and you can feel that when he's talking to Rey about him.It almost feels like Luke thinks Ben betrayed him on some level kind of like Obi Wan with Anakin because he had pinned all his hopes on Ben being the next ''chosen one''.
@CienaRee

I couldn't really detect any contempt when Luke was finally telling Rey the truth about what happened, though?

We'll probably get more info on Luke in the supplementary material, but I doubt that the movies will revisit his backstory any more now that Luke's story is essentially over.
@Saracene

It's a matter of personal interpretation of course but to me it was regret mixed with contempt.There's just a lot Luke assumes Ben did or felt even though he never makes any effort to find out the truth even at the end when he was confronting him.
@CienaRee

I agree.  When you think about it, he's a lot more tender talking about Vader to Leia on Endor than he is when he is talking about Ben.  Ben is the scary, dark kid with lots of power that Luke is now afraid of.  There was never that "he's my nephew" moment, unlike "he's my father" in ROTJ.  Luke always refers to Ben in a way where he is one-step removed.  Like he doesn't say Ben looks at him like his family has turned on him.  He says that Ben looks like his "master" had failed him.  He doesn't talk of Ben as a person or a personality.  He talks about his power and Skywalker blood.  Now maybe Rian dropped the ball with writing, but you never get a major sense that Luke loved this kid as a nephew.

It makes me think of my young cousins, for whom I have an aunt role.  And honestly, those kids were my babies before I had my own baby, and they are still precious to me.  My mother was the same with her many nieces and nephews.  These are intense, close relationships, especially when there is only one kid to fuss over.  So the fact that Luke doesn't exhibit this kind of affection, even tragic affection post-Jedi camp says something.

This also makes me think of when there was all that kerfuffle that Adam wouldn't go to lunch with Mark.  Apparently Mark said, "well, you're my nephew.  You had to sit on my knee at some point."  Honestly, looking back, I think Adam might have read the script with a closer eye than Mark did, because you really don't get the sense that Luke ever bounced Ben on his knee or played soccer with him or took him to the movies.  It all seems very much teacher and student ... and that makes me think that along with other evidence, that Luke really did go hardcore on the "no attachment" rule.
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Luke and Kylo Ren in TLJ

Post by MyOnlyHope on Sun 18 Feb 2018, 8:17 am

@Saracene wrote:
@Night Huntress wrote:But no matter what story Rian or any other writer would have came up with for VIII this "problem" would remain because JJ put him on that Island...and it wasn't like he was held there against his will. I don't know any really good reason for Luke to exile himself with the galaxy in trouble his nephew lost and his sister fighting an almost hopeless war. Nope
@Night Huntress

Not just that, but JJ himself explained why Luke was on the island, through Han's words; that one of his students betrayed him, and that Luke blamed himself and walked away from everything. And then finished the movie with the last shot of depressed Luke looking at the lightsaber like it's something awful he never wants to touch. Rian was left with the job of explaining the details of why exactly Luke blamed himself and what happened, but the general outline was already set in.
@Saracene
And if you listen to the way Harrison delivers those lines, Han's resentment and weariness is impossible to miss, especially when he says: "yeah, I knew him, I knew Luke." He's bitter and confused. I mean Luke took off without even telling his sister and best friend where he was going. They had to figure it out through stories and rumors as per the dialogue in TFA. Considering Luke's reluctance to reveal to the truth about what really happened at the temple to Rey, Han and Leia were most likely left completely in the dark. Bottom line, there are definitely many stories in that time period that haven't come out yet.
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Re: Discussion: Luke Skywalker in TLJ

Post by SkyStar on Sun 18 Feb 2018, 2:04 pm

Has anyone read Thus Spoke Zarathustra? It just clung to me that maybe there is something similar to Luke's journey or how TLJ portrays him there, but I haven't read Nietzsche tbh. There are some bits about the idealism and escaping etc.
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Re: Discussion: Luke Skywalker in TLJ

Post by nickandnora on Sun 18 Feb 2018, 2:11 pm

I do wonder if the reason there was that impersonal touch to the Luke/Kylo relationship in TLJ (and I agree for those that are saying it was framed in that respect: master and padawan versus uncle and nephew) is that the personal aspect of it is precisely what's going to be explored in the final film. Normally when Force-ghosts appear in the trilogy they appear in a teacherly fashion, but maybe Luke appears purely as a family member seeking to atone to AND forgive Ben. The thing that stands out to me about the confrontation on Crait, is that is was their "alter-egos" confronting each other. It was very much Kylo Ren in full ragey mode, versus Luke Skywalker, Jedi and legend. It would be nice (and probable) that they meet as kin in IX, and resolve any remaining animosity between them.

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Re: Discussion: Luke Skywalker in TLJ

Post by Teo oswald on Sun 18 Feb 2018, 2:12 pm

for me to see this Luke Skywalker, in isolation, alone, closed to society and with a sadness that is reflected in his eyes shocked me the first time I saw him at the cinema. Since I was a child I wanted to be like Luke Skywalker, brave, strong, and without fear, he was my idol. now I see this Luke in a different light. We see him scared, the ghosts of his past torment him, his jedi belief has disappeared. Everything we thought we knew about Luke in this episode collapses like a house of cards.
Having seen the film multiple times, I overcame the shock, yet I was more shocked to see this new Luke than Luke's death. I was ready to say goodbye because I knew he would die, but I was not ready to see him in that light. He wasn't Luke Skywalker
Then understanding the story better I accepted everything, with the pain I go forward.

When I will watch previous films once again , I will not look at them as I once did.
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Re: Discussion: Luke Skywalker in TLJ

Post by Saracene on Sun 18 Feb 2018, 2:45 pm

@nickandnora wrote:I do wonder if the reason there was that impersonal touch to the Luke/Kylo relationship in TLJ (and I agree for those that are saying it was framed in that respect: master and padawan versus uncle and nephew) is that the personal aspect of it is precisely what's going to be explored in the final film. Normally when Force-ghosts appear in the trilogy they appear in a teacherly fashion, but maybe Luke appears purely as a family member seeking to atone to AND forgive Ben. The thing that stands out to me about the confrontation on Crait, is that is was their "alter-egos" confronting each other. It was very much Kylo Ren in full ragey mode, versus Luke Skywalker, Jedi and legend. It would be nice (and probable) that they meet as kin in IX, and resolve any remaining animosity between them.
@nickandnora

I hope so; it would be great to get a scene where Luke appears to Ben for clearly no other reason than trying to offer support and/or patch things up. My personal takeaway from Crait was that Luke did care about his nephew, but there was just too many things mixed in there, with Luke having to work against him to save the Resistance. Now that Leia is gone FG!Luke is pretty much the only chance for Kylo to reconcile with his family; he can't just keep walking with a festering wound where they're concerned or cut them out of his heart for good.
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Re: Discussion: Luke Skywalker in TLJ

Post by ZioRen on Sun 18 Feb 2018, 3:18 pm

@Saracene wrote:
@nickandnora wrote:I do wonder if the reason there was that impersonal touch to the Luke/Kylo relationship in TLJ (and I agree for those that are saying it was framed in that respect: master and padawan versus uncle and nephew) is that the personal aspect of it is precisely what's going to be explored in the final film. Normally when Force-ghosts appear in the trilogy they appear in a teacherly fashion, but maybe Luke appears purely as a family member seeking to atone to AND forgive Ben. The thing that stands out to me about the confrontation on Crait, is that is was their "alter-egos" confronting each other. It was very much Kylo Ren in full ragey mode, versus Luke Skywalker, Jedi and legend. It would be nice (and probable) that they meet as kin in IX, and resolve any remaining animosity between them.
@nickandnora

I hope so; it would be great to get a scene where Luke appears to Ben for clearly no other reason than trying to offer support and/or patch things up. My personal takeaway from Crait was that Luke did care about his nephew, but there was just too many things mixed in there, with Luke having to work against him to save the Resistance. Now that Leia is gone FG!Luke is pretty much the only chance for Kylo to reconcile with his family; he can't just keep walking with a festering wound where they're concerned or cut them out of his heart for good.
@Saracene

Same here. I think this was discussed in another thread but I can't see Luke's ghost showing up to be mainly a mentor for Kylo or kick him in the pants into redemption. I think we're past that mentoring stage for both Rey and Kylo. Luke already taught Kylo a lesson on Crait, now is the time for him to finally try to reconnect and make amends on a personal and familial level. Uncle to nephew, not failed master to lost padawan. This is the wound that needs to be healed in Kylo's heart.

Your point about Leia is why I'm very much convinced Luke is going to have a decent presence. If they didn't plan for his Force ghost to play a part in IX at first, I think they certainly do now. Luke can also serve to convey Leia's voice and will to Kylo, speak for her "from the beyond" now that she can't and since they'll no doubt be reunited in the Force.
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Re: Discussion: Luke Skywalker in TLJ

Post by Darth_Awakened on Sun 18 Feb 2018, 3:40 pm

@ZioRen wrote:
@Saracene wrote:
@nickandnora wrote:I do wonder if the reason there was that impersonal touch to the Luke/Kylo relationship in TLJ (and I agree for those that are saying it was framed in that respect: master and padawan versus uncle and nephew) is that the personal aspect of it is precisely what's going to be explored in the final film. Normally when Force-ghosts appear in the trilogy they appear in a teacherly fashion, but maybe Luke appears purely as a family member seeking to atone to AND forgive Ben. The thing that stands out to me about the confrontation on Crait, is that is was their "alter-egos" confronting each other. It was very much Kylo Ren in full ragey mode, versus Luke Skywalker, Jedi and legend. It would be nice (and probable) that they meet as kin in IX, and resolve any remaining animosity between them.
@nickandnora

I hope so; it would be great to get a scene where Luke appears to Ben for clearly no other reason than trying to offer support and/or patch things up. My personal takeaway from Crait was that Luke did care about his nephew, but there was just too many things mixed in there, with Luke having to work against him to save the Resistance. Now that Leia is gone FG!Luke is pretty much the only chance for Kylo to reconcile with his family; he can't just keep walking with a festering wound where they're concerned or cut them out of his heart for good.
@Saracene

Same here. I think this was discussed in another thread but I can't see Luke's ghost showing up to be mainly a mentor for Kylo or kick him in the pants into redemption. I think we're past that mentoring stage for both Rey and Kylo. Luke already taught Kylo a lesson on Crait, now is the time for him to finally try to reconnect and make amends on a personal and familial level. Uncle to nephew, not failed master to lost padawan. This is the wound that needs to be healed in Kylo's heart.

Your point about Leia is why I'm very much convinced Luke is going to have a decent presence. If they didn't plan for his Force ghost to play a part in IX at first, I think they certainly do now. Luke can also serve to convey Leia's voice and will to Kylo, speak for her "from the beyond" now that she can't and since they'll no doubt be reunited in the Force.
@ZioRen

I think FG!Luke is a must now - when Leia is gone. And I agree he's not much need to be a mentor - but a little further trolling the Supreme leader wouldn't do any harm. In fact, he did say: See ya again kid! With that I think Rian set a solid ground for FGLuke to appear in IX:
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Re: Discussion: Luke Skywalker in TLJ

Post by motherofpearl1 on Mon 19 Feb 2018, 12:28 am

I will probably annoy some people by saying this but....I actually don't think Kylo needs to beg forgiveness from anyone,except maybe the families of people he ordered killed on Jakku, and anyone else who personally suffered at his hand. His family let him down - big time. He murdered his father but Han forgave his son. He couldn't bring himself to kill his mother. And sorry, but no way does he need Luke's forgiveness, when he practically created Kylo Ren. As for Rey....Rey avenged herself on him twice, once when she left him scarred and bleeding on Starkiller, again when she rejected him on the Supremacy. I sometimes think if anyone needs an apology...it's Ben Solo.
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Re: Discussion: Luke Skywalker in TLJ

Post by rey09 on Mon 19 Feb 2018, 12:55 am

I would like for episode 9 to end with force ghost luke telling a redeemed ben that he can still meet leia. We wouldn't need to see her actual force ghost but just mentioning it would lend a lot of meaning to ben- at least we know he can have closure with her.
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Re: Discussion: Luke Skywalker in TLJ

Post by Teo oswald on Mon 19 Feb 2018, 4:30 am

I asked myself, if Luke had not seen Ben in the hut with Rey, what would he have said to Rey?
We know that Luke used the force to contact Leia.
Luke called Rey and entered the hut.
Perhaps, I say perhaps, if he had not seen Ben, he would have told her
"Rey we leave, Leia is not well" he would have left the island.
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Re: Discussion: Luke Skywalker in TLJ

Post by giaciak2 on Mon 19 Feb 2018, 7:09 am

For me, Instead, I'd like Ben to apologize at some point. Sorry to his uncle, for his part of guilt.
Sorry to his mother and father, because even if betrayed and misunderstood he could still choose the light.
Sorry for killing his father.
Sorry to Finn for injuring him.
Sorry to Poe for torturing him.
Excuse for all the people he hurt.
Excuses that he should also receive from others, because his is a fault in half.
Not because he is the only guilty, in fact he is more a victim. But in apologizing, he can open himself to forgiveness . He needs to receive apology from his uncle, mother and father.
But only because, In my mind .... If failure is a great teacher. Forgiveness is the cure.

However, in my opinion there will be no excuse. There are too many things to clarify in IX, I don't know if there will be time for an apology. Perhaps in a subsequent book.
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