The Heroine's Journey/Rey's Journey

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Re: The Heroine's Journey/Rey's Journey

Post by Saracene on Sun 04 Mar 2018, 5:45 pm

@DeeBee Is reestablishing the Jedi Order Rey's priority though, or is it just something that the fans assume?

The only thing that hints on it is the stolen Jedi books, which we see in a split second. But apart from that, we know absolutely nothing about Rey's thoughts on the future of the Jedi. In her final conversation, she asks Leia "how can we rebuild the Resistance" - there's no mention of rebuilding the Jedi Order.

To be honest, the whole "we need the Jedi Order back" never really made sense to me. So Luke or Rey train a bunch of force-sensitives - how were they going to take down the FO exactly? Laser swords aren't a match against giant dreadnoughts.
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Re: The Heroine's Journey/Rey's Journey

Post by rawpowah on Sun 04 Mar 2018, 6:04 pm

@Saracene wrote:@DeeBee Is reestablishing the Jedi Order Rey's priority though, or is it just something that the fans assume?

The only thing that hints on it is the stolen Jedi books, which we see in a split second. But apart from that, we know absolutely nothing about Rey's thoughts on the future of the Jedi. In her final conversation, she asks Leia "how can we rebuild the Resistance" - there's no mention of rebuilding the Jedi Order.

To be honest, the whole "we need the Jedi Order back" never really made sense to me. So Luke or Rey train a bunch of force-sensitives - how were they going to take down the FO exactly? Laser swords aren't a match against giant dreadnoughts.
@Saracene

This is what I want to know as well. (her priorities vs. fan assumptions)

I have trouble figuring out Rey's motivations most of the times and there are moments where I feel like she's doing certain things because the plot demands it and not because this is what the character genuinely wants. The parts about building a the Jedi Order and rebuilding the Resistance are confusing. I never once got the impression during TLJ that she was interested in building a Jedi Order, when TLJ clearly showed she has no idea what the Force is and what Jedi do, and there's no moment on screen when she decides she going to start her own Jedi school. She also didn't even get any training with Luke besides meditating and the Jedi tricks she's learned she picked up from Kylo's mind.

We didn't even see her steal the books on screen. We only saw them in a drawer in the Falcon (and tbh the only reason I even noticed them was because someone pointed that out; otherwise I would have missed it). If she was set up to start a Jedi Order next, wouldn't TLJ have shown her actually taking the books? That seems like an important moment. If IX opens with her training kids to become Jedis, I'm going to roll my eyes so hard.

I don't know, sometimes I feel like she's too much of a blank canvas, which is probably why so many fans project on her.
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Re: The Heroine's Journey/Rey's Journey

Post by Irina de France on Sun 04 Mar 2018, 6:57 pm

I mean, people were all there expecting Rey and Luke to be something like Karate Kid. And I'm sorry, if IX starts with Jedi Master Rey who rebuilt her lightsaber just like that and training a bunch of kids, I'm calling her a Mary-Sue. I'm not even sorry.
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Re: The Heroine's Journey/Rey's Journey

Post by ZioRen on Sun 04 Mar 2018, 7:17 pm

I don't think Rey will be training anyone or have any younglings around at any point of the trilogy. But I still think she will in the future and is the future of the Jedi. I don't see how Luke's last scene and proclamation makes any sense otherwise.
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Re: The Heroine's Journey/Rey's Journey

Post by DeeBee on Sun 04 Mar 2018, 9:33 pm

Ahhh it’s lunch break time!
@Saracene @rawpowah @Irina de France @ZioRen
-Hi all! thanks for your responses.
If I'm understanding you all correctly, I'm thinking when I wrote: "Rey’s priority is to restablish the jedi order (a new jedi order not the old version), and through this, support the cause of the resistance" -this was understood to mean Rey will immediately set out to start a jedi college and take on padawans.
I was very brief and didn't expand on what I thought this meant. I’ll have a go explaining my perspective..
When I say Rey’s place in all this is to restore the jedi order and support the resistance – I don’t claim to know with certainty what that will look like.

However, I think the ending of TLJ tells us that Rey surviving and siding with the resistance means she is in a sense the start of restoring the jedi order (whatever that will look like! lol). Rey is the one remaining keeper of the flame. The guardian of the founding Jedi texts..
But restoring the Jedi is something that will take place in time.. this is the long term goal. Maybe I can put it that way. lol. I don't see her training anyone in IX - I agree with you guys!

In the immediate future though, the short term goal related to the restoring of the jedi is survival. This is what I mean by it being a priority for Rey... Rey being the last jedi and surviving to fight another day/ still existing is powerful. It indirectly helps rebuild the resistance– because Luke’s Jedi showdown with the FO sent a message to the galaxy – it reignited hope in the galaxy that the Jedi still exist and are powerful agents of change, the cause of the rebellion/resistance has hope, is worth fighting for and that the FO will be defeated.
How am I doing here, am I making any sense? haaaa.

It may be argued that at the end of TLJ Rey is not a Jedi, more of a jedi in training. This isn't how I see it - because I think at numerous points in numerous ways TLJ implies that Rey has what she needs to be a Jedi (not PT Jedi! Lol)… [but I agree it is not explicit]

The Snoke dialogue to Rey in the throne room after he has tortured and interrogated her is very telling: [here’s my unbeta’d transcription]:
.. Rey resists again – pulls legacy saber, it flies around and hits her on the head -  
S: such spunk. Look here now. -more action takes place-
S: the entire resistance. Those transports, soon they will all be gone. For you, all is lost.
-Calls red saber and it ignites-
S; Ohhhh… still that fiery spit of hope- you have the spirit of a true jedi!!!!!!!!
-Rey Roars- attacks- is defeated.. – saber flies back to Kylo/Snoke?
S: and because of that: you must die.

I think Snoke sees the truth here – there in the throne room - Rey has the spirit of a true Jedi. [note- not a future Jedi.]
Here I think the definition of ‘Jedi’ is not years of training and following certain rules – it is about your spirit, your values, your heart, and hope. And Rey has it.
[I think it hints that True Jedi is different to PT Jedi- but I need to wait till IX for this to play out]

We also have the Luke and Yoda conversation on Ach-to about Rey having what she needs, and how quite literally - Luke needs to hand over that torch (get it) - to the next generation... and ensure they do not lose Rey.

There is also the final conversation with Leia - where Rey speaks about Luke, his peace and purpose- holding the split light saber - again the message is - we have all we need.

Rey has many skills already – this is due to her connection with Kylo/Ben – she’s like Neo in the matrix – where he suddenly knows Kung Fu!
She's 'downloaded' his training I think hasn't she? This is canon now isn't it? I don’t see this as a mary sue thing – I think it is related to her being Kylo/Ben’s counterpart in the force, his complementary other and the force has made this all possible. I’m happy to go with that!

@Saracene wrote:@DeeBee Is reestablishing the Jedi Order Rey's priority though, or is it just something that the fans assume?

The only thing that hints on it is the stolen Jedi books, which we see in a split second. But apart from that, we know absolutely nothing about Rey's thoughts on the future of the Jedi. In her final conversation, she asks Leia "how can we rebuild the Resistance" - there's no mention of rebuilding the Jedi Order.

To be honest, the whole "we need the Jedi Order back" never really made sense to me. So Luke or Rey train a bunch of force-sensitives - how were they going to take down the FO exactly? Laser swords aren't a match against giant dreadnoughts.
@Saracene

I agree there is no explicit mention of rebuilding the jedi order, and I don't think I am making assumptions. I have only an opinion based on what I see.
Rey's thoughts on the future of the Jedi? Yes I agree nothing is explicitly stated.. However, there are lots of little things - each alone doesn't say much maybe.. but combined they paint a picture for me that Rey does believe in a future for the Jedi. [(the exact future, and definition of 'jedi' is IMHO totally up in the air!]
Here's a quick list off the top of my head..
- Rey has the spirit of a true jedi.
- Saying no to Kylo's offer to rule the galaxy with him leading the FO.
- All Rey's interactions with Luke imply she thinks the Jedi have something to offer the galaxy.
- Rey says the jedi are needed.
- Rey grew up hearing of the legend Luke Skywalker - I think she was one who was given hope because of this.
- Rey isn't knowledgeable about the PT history of the Jedi order - she just sees that what she values is aligned with Jedi values. [A jedi saved Vader]
- Rey's acceptance of the call of the lightsaber to her, and her determination to hold on to it and not let Kylo/Ben take it. lol.
- Part of Rey's arc in TLJ was her search for her place in all this - at the end of TLJ, she is the last remaining Jedi... i think she has found her place. [doesn't mean it will be smooth sailing in IX]
- Rey has these awakened powers and wants to know what to do with them. So she seeks out Luke and training..
- Rey dreamed of the island, the force tree.. and the force called her to the tree/texts.. I don't see anything that tells me Rey is anti what the force wills for her at this stage.
- Rey stole the Jedi texts - all of them! Luke was saying no to the continued existance of the Jedi? So Rey took them - she thinks it should be a yes! [I'd say this is the most overt sign]
- Rey trying to help redeem Ben (It's for many reasons I know but I think it's part of it - that the Jedi would try to redeem him - just like vader).
I think I've barely skimmed the surface here.
And.. I've got to get back to work. Hope I've said something here worth reading. lol..
I've enjoyed pulling together thoughts on what is a little obscure, and yes not explicitly conveyed in TLJ! Interesting discussion... bye!
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Re: The Heroine's Journey/Rey's Journey

Post by Night Huntress on Mon 05 Mar 2018, 1:17 am

@Saracene wrote:@DeeBee Is reestablishing the Jedi Order Rey's priority though, or is it just something that the fans assume?

The only thing that hints on it is the stolen Jedi books, which we see in a split second. But apart from that, we know absolutely nothing about Rey's thoughts on the future of the Jedi. In her final conversation, she asks Leia "how can we rebuild the Resistance" - there's no mention of rebuilding the Jedi Order.

To be honest, the whole "we need the Jedi Order back" never really made sense to me. So Luke or Rey train a bunch of force-sensitives - how were they going to take down the FO exactly? Laser swords aren't a match against giant dreadnoughts.
@Saracene

I agree!

I loved TLJ- but when Luke said to Kylo "and I won't be the last Jedi..." I was rolling my eyes at the theatre...just days ago he was making a point how the Jedi needed to end- enumerating all their mistakes and failures and now he changed his mind? Or did he only said that to anger Kylo??? I don't get it. No

To be honest- I do want the Jedi to end... I never was a big fan of their philosophy.

And the other thing that bugs me. Rey is NOT a Jedi! She had 2 f**** lessons from Luke (who was never properly trained either!) and now SHE wants to teach others? She has the books, but do you know how to swim just from reading how it's technically done?
It's ridiculous!



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Re: The Heroine's Journey/Rey's Journey

Post by Saracene on Mon 05 Mar 2018, 1:35 am

@DeeBee wrote:I agree there is no explicit mention of rebuilding the jedi order, and I don't think I am making assumptions. I have only an opinion based on what I see.
Rey's thoughts on the future of the Jedi? Yes I agree nothing is explicitly stated.. However, there are lots of little things - each alone doesn't say much maybe.. but combined they paint a picture for me that Rey does believe in a future for the Jedi. [(the exact future, and definition of 'jedi' is IMHO totally up in the air!]
Here's a quick list off the top of my head..
- Rey has the spirit of a true jedi.
- Saying no to Kylo's offer to rule the galaxy with him leading the FO.
- All Rey's interactions with Luke imply she thinks the Jedi have something to offer the galaxy.
- Rey says the jedi are needed.
- Rey grew up hearing of the legend Luke Skywalker - I think she was one who was given hope because of this.
- Rey isn't knowledgeable about the PT history of the Jedi order - she just sees that what she values is aligned with Jedi values. [A jedi saved Vader]
- Rey's acceptance of the call of the lightsaber to her, and her determination to hold on to it and not let Kylo/Ben take it. lol.
- Part of Rey's arc in TLJ was her search for her place in all this - at the end of TLJ, she is the last remaining Jedi... i think she has found her place. [doesn't mean it will be smooth sailing in IX]
- Rey has these awakened powers and wants to know what to do with them. So she seeks out Luke and training..
- Rey dreamed of the island, the force tree.. and the force called her to the tree/texts.. I don't see anything that tells me Rey is anti what the force wills for her at this stage.
- Rey stole the Jedi texts - all of them! Luke was saying no to the continued existance of the Jedi? So Rey took them - she thinks it should be a yes! [I'd say this is the most overt sign]
- Rey trying to help redeem Ben (It's for many reasons I know but I think it's part of it - that the Jedi would try to redeem him - just like vader).
I think I've barely skimmed the surface here.
And.. I've got to get back to work. Hope I've said something here worth reading. lol..
I've enjoyed pulling together thoughts on what is a little obscure, and yes not explicitly conveyed in TLJ! Interesting discussion... bye!
@DeeBee

I'd frankly give up all of those little things for the simple clarity of something like, "I want to be a Jedi like my father". Boom, a character plainly stating what they want and what they're about.

I honestly appreciate Luke's arc in the OT so much more in hindsight. No waiting around for the next film to clarify the character's motivations in the previous film, no obscuring of emotions for the sake of a mystery box.
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Re: The Heroine's Journey/Rey's Journey

Post by Rei of Sunshine on Mon 05 Mar 2018, 3:49 am

@Ramblingrose wrote:
@Rei of Sunshine wrote:Hey guys. So I noticed in different threads that most, if not all, are quite disappointed in Rey as a character. Especially after TLJ. She seems to be simple a passive reactive character even in a story that should be her own.  
@Rei of Sunshine

It depends upon if you say: "It's Rey's story" or "It's Kylo's story".

I feel that VII-IX is Kylo's story, as I-III was Anakin's story. I mean that Kylo Ren is the character that show the most growth and dilemma in TLJ.

In ANH, Han Solo is the most interesting and active role.... but the originals turn to be about Luke. In my opinion, Rey is playing Han's role here in The Sequels. It makes sense that she is more two-dimensional if Kylo is meant to be the main character.
@Ramblingrose

I agree a little on VII-IX being Kylo's story. But in a sense that he is only secondary to Rey.

Rey is still the protagonist of this trilogy because we are seeing the story through her eyes. Kylo is a character who is part of the conflict the heroine; Rey, finds herself in.

Much like Elizabeth Swann is the protagonist of the Pirates of the Caribbean 1,2, and 3, (as the trilogy begins and ends with her) and Jack Sparrow is merely a person she meets thanks to the circumstances. Yet people think Jack is the protagonist (only because Depp is popular and Knightley is new back then)

Same with Rey and Ben. Rey's character will be directly affected with what happens to Ben's story, and vice versa, Ben's decisions will be directly affected by Rey.

They are equal in importance, but I think Rey still is the focus of this story, only with some Skywalker drama in the background.
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Re: The Heroine's Journey/Rey's Journey

Post by Ramblingrose on Mon 05 Mar 2018, 3:56 am

@Rei of Sunshine
Well, we have to wait and it's killing me, lol.
I will not post more here that it's Kylo who is the main character, because I will not derail Rey's thread further. Because I know nothing. It is just a strong feeling. And if it's Rey's journey, Kylo's arc or them both equal as protagonists... does not matter. It's going to be awesome.
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Re: The Heroine's Journey/Rey's Journey

Post by Rei of Sunshine on Mon 05 Mar 2018, 4:17 am

@Saracene wrote:@DeeBee Is reestablishing the Jedi Order Rey's priority though, or is it just something that the fans assume?

The only thing that hints on it is the stolen Jedi books, which we see in a split second. But apart from that, we know absolutely nothing about Rey's thoughts on the future of the Jedi. In her final conversation, she asks Leia "how can we rebuild the Resistance" - there's no mention of rebuilding the Jedi Order.

To be honest, the whole "we need the Jedi Order back" never really made sense to me. So Luke or Rey train a bunch of force-sensitives - how were they going to take down the FO exactly? Laser swords aren't a match against giant dreadnoughts.
@Saracene

Luke was right and Yoda was right. They both accepted their mistakes and conceded that the old Jedi ways were wrong and vain.

I think that by the end of Ep 9, they should establish that the Old Jedi Order is gone, and that Rey and Ben would be a different kind of Jedi.

I don't want to see padawans being trained. What I would like is for Rey and Ben to share their understanding of the Force, for a more enlightened galaxy. It's about time everybody understood that its not only the Jedi who have the Force. Maybe a monkish Force prayer retreat is too much, but there should definitely be some wisdom sharing at the end of Ep 9.
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Re: The Heroine's Journey/Rey's Journey

Post by Rei of Sunshine on Mon 05 Mar 2018, 4:19 am

sorry dp.
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Re: The Heroine's Journey/Rey's Journey

Post by rawpowah on Mon 05 Mar 2018, 5:33 am

@DeeBee There's a difference between downloading some tricks to use in a tricky (heh) situation and becoming qualified and knowledgeable enough to successfully teach others such a vast and complex thing as the Force and the Jedi. And the whole "I read it in a book" doesn't cut it for me. And now to mention if she's downloaded Kylo's training as is suddenly so good at this Jedi business and doesn't need training, teaching, or help and can do everything by herself, what exactly is Kylo's use in this story? Rey's personal thepiratebay account?

@Saracene I wonder if Rey wants to be a Jedi because of what she saw in her vision of Ben. If she saw them together training kids (their own or kids they picked up), then that would be a reason. Or maybe she wants to be a Jedi because she admires them and heard Jedi legends? We know she heard stories about them in TFA, but it's never specified that this is why she wants to become one. I really hate these mystery boxes lol.

@Rei of Sunshine I never once got the impression that Elizabeth was the main character in POTC because she's there at the beginning and end. This is actually the first time I've seen this. The first scene is actually about her finding Will and then last one iirc is Will returning to her. To me, the main has always been Will Turner, aka. the guy with the secret pirate parentage and the reason Elizabeth gets kidnapped and all the events in the entire trilogy are set in motion. Even the fifth movie was about breaking the curse to save him. The OT begins with Leia and the droids and they are there at the ending, but that doesn't mean they're the main characters (Luke is). Likewise, the PT begins with Obiwan and whatshisface going off to discuss some treaty and ends iirc with Obi-wan taking baby Luke to Tatooine, but Anakin is still the main character. Even TFA doesn't open with Rey, but instead opens with Poe and Lor San Tekka and segways directly into Kylo Ren's introduction. To me, this being the Skywalker saga, the Skywalkers (Ben) are not background noise for Rey. I think this is very much Ben's story, but seen through Rey's eyes (therefore giving the trilogy a fresh and new perspective and co-protagonists, and giving Rey the development and agency that Padme lacked in the PT). This actually makes me wonder how the PT would have looked it if had been told through Padme's eyes.
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Re: The Heroine's Journey/Rey's Journey

Post by DeeBee on Mon 05 Mar 2018, 5:40 pm

@”Saracene” – yeah my view is that Rey takes a little effort to understand. And to be honest, I quite like that about her. But I can see how it can be frustrating. I think explicit motivations and lines like “I want to be a Jedi like my father” are generally absent from the ST… and there are often multiple motivations simultaneously. I enjoy this stuff. Lol.  It is left to the audience to figure out motivations with a number of characters… and of course we are only in the middle movie so there is more to find out.

@Rei of Sunshine wrote:
@Saracene wrote:@DeeBee Is reestablishing the Jedi Order Rey's priority though, or is it just something that the fans assume?

The only thing that hints on it is the stolen Jedi books, which we see in a split second. But apart from that, we know absolutely nothing about Rey's thoughts on the future of the Jedi. In her final conversation, she asks Leia "how can we rebuild the Resistance" - there's no mention of rebuilding the Jedi Order.

To be honest, the whole "we need the Jedi Order back" never really made sense to me. So Luke or Rey train a bunch of force-sensitives - how were they going to take down the FO exactly? Laser swords aren't a match against giant dreadnoughts.
@Saracene

Luke was right and Yoda was right. They both accepted their mistakes and conceded that the old Jedi ways were wrong and vain.

I think that by the end of Ep 9, they should establish that the Old Jedi Order is gone, and that Rey and Ben would be a different kind of Jedi.

I don't want to see padawans being trained. What I would like is for Rey and Ben to share their understanding of the Force, for a more enlightened galaxy. It's about time everybody understood that its not only the Jedi who have the Force. Maybe a monkish Force prayer retreat is too much, but there should definitely be some wisdom sharing at the end of Ep 9.
@Rei of Sunshine
-I’m seeing it this way too Rei of Sunshine!
Yes I don’t want to see Rey training anyone either. Yawn. I wonder if Rey is established enough at the end of TLJ to be able to teach. I’m not sure and don’t want to assume. Even if she has downloaded Kylo/Ben’s skills…
Interesting idea about the force and the galaxy as a whole. Whooooo – maybe we can explore this more in a force related thread?
However, I guess, the future of the Jedi is central to Rey’s character..
The way I see it: In TLJ we are given two seemingly contradictory messages simultaneously:
1) The Jedi order was flawed and must come to an end.
2) Luke will not be the last Jedi  - Rey is going to continue on the Jedi.

I assume this is a deliberate storytelling choice here (and I think it fits the story of the force in the IX movies).
How do these two messages fit together? or how do we hold both messages as true at the same time?  
I think it has to mean that the old Jedi order need to end, and a new Jedi will continue on – The definition of ‘Jedi’ is being redefined – but at this stage it is not fully revealed.
A reading of the force lore threads, or the balance thread will be of interest to anyone who wants to explore this. I don’t want to hijack this thread with theories of what the new Jedi would look like, and I do love to think about this stuff. Lol.

Putting all this together, Rey the Jedi is going to look different to what we’ve seen from other jedi. This is my opinion based on what I’ve seen at this point.. but I understand I need to wait for IX to find out for sure. Lol.

@rawpowah wrote:@DeeBee There's a difference between downloading some tricks to use in a tricky (heh) situation and becoming qualified and knowledgeable enough to successfully teach others such a vast and complex thing as the Force and the Jedi. And the whole "I read it in a book" doesn't cut it for me. And now to mention if she's downloaded Kylo's training as is suddenly so good at this Jedi business and doesn't need training, teaching, or help and can do everything by herself, what exactly is Kylo's use in this story? Rey's personal thepiratebay account?
@rawpowah

-Hiya! In a sense I agree with you rawpowah, but.. we seem to draw different conclusions.
I agree there is a difference between downloading some tricks to use [love the ‘tricky’ pun!] and being qualified to train others.
I do not think Rey downloading Kylo/Ben’s skills means she is qualified to teach at the end of TLJ. But the story also tells us that Rey has what she needs to move the Jedi order into the future.  Hmmm so how does all this come together then?
I think we need to wait for IX lol.... but.. I’m thinking – Rey downloaded a basic foundation that she can build on in time (the Kylo/Ben basics subscription valid for a lifetime haaa - with a force bond thrown in for tech support!!!).

Rey is not going to immediately train others I think. Does anyone think that? I’ve not seen anyone say that- we all seem to agree on this idea. which is unusual! From the end of TLJ, Rey will build on what she has, continue to grow and learn – with the force guiding her.
What this will look like I’m not sure.. because Jedi training of the past is turned on its head with Rey. But – I can pull together these thoughts, come up with ideas for how it might work, and stay tuned for episode IX.
TLJ implies the Jedi texts will be helpful to Rey and her growth as a Jedi. they contain information about Jedi skills and abilities..
We have the possibility of Force ghosts training and guiding Rey too.
We also have the force able to directly communicate with Rey – in ways that are implied – if she ‘reaches out’ the force wants her to know and understand her place – and to fulfil the will of the force. Maybe this is too simplistic for some fans, but I’m comfortable with this. The force will ensure Rey has what she needs to do it’s will and bring about it’s ultimate purpose for her: which I think is to bring balance to the force/ continue on the jedi. This faith or reliance on the force to provide is central to how I see Rey – and in a sense it is a childlike simple faith – we've seen previously that Rey has tended toward simplistic views as part of her personality (with positive and negative results).
Here with the force, I think she is probably right to put her faith in things working out, and the force being at work.

Also, there is a part of me that wonders if Rey's lack of training at this point is actually an asset rather than a liability... It may make her perfect for the job of moving the Jedi forward. She is not steeped in the training of the light side or the dark.. and Kylo/Ben's previous training compliments Rey because he has been trained in both!

I think Rey is a mysterious character.. with mysterious awakened abilities... a mysterious background, with a personality that tends to enhance this mystery – and her story is deeply connected to a mysterious concept – the force. Plus, we are in the middle of a story unfolding here where much is yet to be revealed...
I think we can just appreciate her character on a superficial level – and we can dig as deep or as little as we like. Rey may be mysterious, but there are knowable elements which are fun to explore. It’s all good!
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Re: The Heroine's Journey/Rey's Journey

Post by motherofpearl1 on Mon 05 Mar 2018, 7:22 pm

@Rei of Sunshine wrote:
@Saracene wrote:@DeeBee Is reestablishing the Jedi Order Rey's priority though, or is it just something that the fans assume?

The only thing that hints on it is the stolen Jedi books, which we see in a split second. But apart from that, we know absolutely nothing about Rey's thoughts on the future of the Jedi. In her final conversation, she asks Leia "how can we rebuild the Resistance" - there's no mention of rebuilding the Jedi Order.

To be honest, the whole "we need the Jedi Order back" never really made sense to me. So Luke or Rey train a bunch of force-sensitives - how were they going to take down the FO exactly? Laser swords aren't a match against giant dreadnoughts.
@Saracene

Luke was right and Yoda was right. They both accepted their mistakes and conceded that the old Jedi ways were wrong and vain.

I think that by the end of Ep 9, they should establish that the Old Jedi Order is gone, and that Rey and Ben would be a different kind of Jedi.

I don't want to see padawans being trained. What I would like is for Rey and Ben to share their understanding of the Force, for a more enlightened galaxy. It's about time everybody understood that its not only the Jedi who have the Force. Maybe a monkish Force prayer retreat is too much, but there should definitely be some wisdom sharing at the end of Ep 9.
@Rei of Sunshine

Agree on all counts....no more room for black/white extremes. It's time for the Jedi to go the way of the Sith.
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Re: The Heroine's Journey/Rey's Journey

Post by Darth Snoopy on Tue 06 Mar 2018, 1:03 am

I'm just giving my opinion here on Rey in TLJ, much of it already said by others. Rey went to Luke, not just for Leia & the Resistance, but with the thought that she could find guidance from him - so she could understand her awakened force ability. She sought his mentorship, through the obvious guise of "jedi training". I think she had always idealized the Jedi, Luke gave her hope, aspirations - when he tries to course-correct her views with the history of the Jedi, she still fights him on that, not because she wants to be a Jedi, but because she thinks that its her only way, & the only " right" way for her to understand the force & find, as she puts it " her place in all this" Rey already does things contrary to the old Jedi way - Reys journey is about understanding and accepting herself, in the end to make her own place of belonging. I personally don't think her training force sensitives in episode 9would make any sense, this is still her coming of age story  she herself still has much to learn - both about the force & who she thinks she is. Outside of this forum, Rey suddenly training future jedi, seems to be the major consensus - I can't see this, even with an ugly sized time jump No Qst
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Re: The Heroine's Journey/Rey's Journey

Post by 12 Parsnips on Tue 06 Mar 2018, 7:42 am

I don't know why, but I kind of got the vibe from TLJ that Rey will be a Jedi...just not the Jedi we've seen in the past. As in, she'll be redefining the Jedi and sort of making, not a new "order," but a new philosophy of Force use/Force user. If she and Ben are in fact the balance of the Force, maybe maintaining the balance would be what the new Jedi are about.

But in any case, I don't see Rey fully becoming a Jedi (however we'll define it going forward) and training people in IX. As many have mentioned above, it seems Rey will still be in her coming-of-age mode. I do think we'll get a hint of where she/the Jedi will be heading though, before they fly off (in the Falcon) into the sunset. Very Happy
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Re: The Heroine's Journey/Rey's Journey

Post by giaciak2 on Tue 06 Mar 2018, 10:06 am

In my mind the last Jedi continues to be Ben Solo. Rey is the missing half Ben needs to return back in clear side. And Kylo Ren is the half missing to Rey to feel her complete (at least at night ... Kylo could be better than Ben .... XD ).
I don't know how. But I believe their fate is so intertwined that it can only be realized if they are together. Whatever their fate will be it will be only together (even if they were twins of different ages and children of different parents as someone say on internet).
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Re: The Heroine's Journey/Rey's Journey

Post by motherofpearl1 on Tue 06 Mar 2018, 10:37 am

Good post. And it would be amazing irony if Kylo indeed was the last Jedi.
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Re: The Heroine's Journey/Rey's Journey

Post by 12 Parsnips on Tue 06 Mar 2018, 12:22 pm

@motherofpearl1 wrote:Good post. And it would be amazing irony if Kylo indeed was the last Jedi.


@giaciak2 wrote:In my mind the last Jedi continues to be Ben Solo. Rey is the missing half Ben needs to return back in clear side. And Kylo Ren is the half missing to Rey to feel her complete (at least at night ... Kylo could be better than Ben .... XD ).
I don't know how. But I believe their fate is so intertwined that it can only be realized if they are together. Whatever their fate will be it will be only together (even if they were twins of different ages and children of different parents as someone say on internet).
@giaciak2
@motherofpearl1

I hope they can be "Jedi" together as a team. I really do think Luke was talking about Ben (as well as Rey) when he said he wouldn't be the last Jedi. (I think that whole speech--the war is just beginning, etc.--was about Ben.) But as usual, I pretty much don't care what happens to the Jedi, as long as Ben is restored/redeemed. And I'd also like a nice serving of romantic Reylo with that please. And supersize it. Razz

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Re: The Heroine's Journey/Rey's Journey

Post by giaciak2 on Tue 06 Mar 2018, 12:42 pm

@12 Parsnips wrote:
@motherofpearl1 wrote:Good post. And it would be amazing irony if Kylo indeed was the last Jedi.


@giaciak2 wrote:In my mind the last Jedi continues to be Ben Solo. Rey is the missing half Ben needs to return back in clear side. And Kylo Ren is the half missing to Rey to feel her complete (at least at night ... Kylo could be better than Ben .... XD ).
I don't know how. But I believe their fate is so intertwined that it can only be realized if they are together. Whatever their fate will be it will be only together (even if they were twins of different ages and children of different parents as someone say on internet).
@giaciak2
@motherofpearl1

I hope they can be "Jedi" together as a team. I really do think Luke was talking about Ben (as well as Rey) when he said he wouldn't be the last Jedi. (I think that whole speech--the war is just beginning, etc.--was about Ben.) But as usual, I pretty much don't care what happens to the Jedi, as long as Ben is restored/redeemed. And I'd also like a nice serving of romantic Reylo with that please. And supersize it. Razz

@"12 pastinaca"

You said well. I think the same thing. I was undecided if change my message but I thought it was understood. They are two halves of one. The last Jedi. But in some ways the destiny of the galaxy depends from this union.
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Re: The Heroine's Journey/Rey's Journey

Post by snufkin on Tue 06 Mar 2018, 1:54 pm

My thought was that the Force and the Jedi are the McGuffin for Rey’s quest. Luke calls her out as much and what she admits about something always being in her, that’s no longer dormant, and it scares her - it’s really about the suppressed trauma of what happened to her as a small child and how she’s no longer able to keep lying to herself about it. The truth that is her family. That’s really what drives the bond and mutual curiosity she and Ben have and why the keep circling around each other. He literally feels it to because of what happened to him. The Force and Jedi lore is secondary, it’s about how Ben helps awaken and exorcise that part of her. It’ll just remain to see how cathartic it turns out to be for each of them.
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Re: The Heroine's Journey/Rey's Journey

Post by motherofpearl1 on Wed 07 Mar 2018, 2:26 am

@snufkin wrote:My thought was that the Force and the Jedi are the McGuffin for Rey’s quest. Luke calls her out as much and what she admits about something always being in her, that’s no longer dormant, and it scares her - it’s really about the suppressed trauma of what happened to her as a small child and how she’s no longer able to keep lying to herself about it. The truth that is her family. That’s really what drives the bond and mutual curiosity she and Ben have and why the keep circling around each other. He literally feels it to because of what happened to him. The Force and Jedi lore is secondary, it’s about how Ben helps awaken and exorcise that part of her. It’ll just remain to see how cathartic it turns out to be for each of them.
@snufkin

Look between the lines, past the quips and special effects and the ST is really the story of abused children. The little boy stolen from his family and brainwashed into being a fanatical soldier - that is happening all over the Third World. The little girl sold for drinking money - how many addicts have been known to sell their kids for drugs? The child whose successful parents failed to see his abuse.....all too common.b Which is why I have so much respect for the ST, especially TLJ which took the subjects introduced inTFA and ran with them. And why I still think it should have been Oscar nominated.
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Re: The Heroine's Journey/Rey's Journey

Post by Rei of Sunshine on Wed 07 Mar 2018, 3:36 am

@rawpowah wrote:

@Rei of Sunshine I never once got the impression that Elizabeth was the main character in POTC because she's there at the beginning and end. This is actually the first time I've seen this. The first scene is actually about her finding Will and then last one iirc is Will returning to her. To me, the main has always been Will Turner, aka. the guy with the secret pirate parentage and the reason Elizabeth gets kidnapped and all the events in the entire trilogy are set in motion. Even the fifth movie was about breaking the curse to save him. The OT begins with Leia and the droids and they are there at the ending, but that doesn't mean they're the main characters (Luke is). Likewise, the PT begins with Obiwan and whatshisface going off to discuss some treaty and ends iirc with Obi-wan taking baby Luke to Tatooine, but Anakin is still the main character. Even TFA doesn't open with Rey, but instead opens with Poe and Lor San Tekka and segways directly into Kylo Ren's introduction. To me, this being the Skywalker saga, the Skywalkers (Ben) are not background noise for Rey. I think this is very much Ben's story, but seen through Rey's eyes (therefore giving the trilogy a fresh and new perspective and co-protagonists, and giving Rey the development and agency that Padme lacked in the PT). This actually makes me wonder how the PT would have looked it if had been told through Padme's eyes.
@rawpowah

Regarding Elizabeth, it's not just as simple as the beginning and the end. Let me elaborate.

The entire 1st trilogy of POTC happened because of Elizabeth's actions. And we're also seeing the majority of the story unfold through her eyes; someone who just got dragged into a pirate's life.
COTBP
If she didn't hide the cursed coin when she saw Will, he would've been hanged as a child. If she didn't claim to be Elizabeth Turner, she wouldn't have been kidnapped by the Black Pearl crew, which set off Will and Jack's own adventure to save her. Which wouldn't have led to Will figuring out his pirate lineage, and Jack taking back the Pearl.
DMC
All events of COTBP lead to DMC's beginning. Will and Liz are imprisoned for helping Jack. Will gets shanghaied into capturing Jack for Liz's freedom. Liz gets out anyway. Liz eventually figures out that Jack is the only reason for her and Will's misery and kills Jack by leaving him to the Kraken.
AWE
Liz's actions and Jack's death causes the need to connect with the Brethren Court. Liz becomes King of Brethren Court and declares war. Liz bargains Jack for Will. And saving Liz caused Will his life, becoming captain of the Dutchman.

Everything in POTC happened thanks to Elizabeth. Yet everybody thinks Jack or Will are the protags because men and lineage and action scenes. But elizabeth drives the story.

If you compare it to the ST tho, Will is just like Ben, a lost boy and his lost lineage, and Jack is sort of the Luke of the story, being a legend and all that despite his many flaws and lucky strikes

Now Rey is front and center.. Compared to Liz. Yet so far her actions are not the major causes of events in the story, because Ben is also responsible for how things came to be before TFA. That's why Rey seems so passive and reactionary, especially in TFA. Her biggest game changing decisions were when she saves BB8, and when she pulled the saber out of the snow, accepting her involvement in the story. In TLJ, her biggest game changing actions were choosing Ben over Luke, and leaving Ben allowing him to become Renperor.

In a way, I think Rey feels a bit passive is because the ST is a bit too crowded and other characters' decisions also had to be prioritized. Yet hers have the biggest story impact.

I think Rey's decisions will be given more importance in Ep 9, as she'll probably be in some sort of leadership position, ala MockingJay.

As much as I adore Ben's character, co-protagonist or not, his redemption wouldn't even be a blip in the radar if not for him meeting Rey and being drawn to her light. Making Rey the catalyst for the Skywalkers to get their sith straight.
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Re: The Heroine's Journey/Rey's Journey

Post by snufkin on Thu 08 Mar 2018, 1:33 am

This essay's taking social media by storm, but b/c we've discussed the Female Gaze here and associated topics, like the "I'm not like the other girls" type of stance b/c otherwise things which are enjoyed by girls/women or geared towards their interests are always more scrutinized and criticized. Thesis is that there's the "The Male Glance," which essentially is about dismissing things centered around female interests/perspectives



The male glance is how comedies about women become chick flicks. It’s how discussions of serious movies with female protagonists consign them to the unappealing stable of “strong female characters.” It’s how soap operas and reality television become synonymous with trash. It tricks us into pronouncing mothers intrinsically boring, and it quietly convinces us that female friendships come in two strains: conventional jealousy or the even less appealing non-plot of saccharine love. The third narrative possibility, frenemy-cum-friend, is an only slightly less shallow conversion myth. Who consumes these stories? Who could want to?

The slope from taxonomy to dismissal is deceptively gentle and ends with a shrug. The danger of the male glance is that it is reasonable. It’s not always or necessarily incorrect. But it is dangerous because it looks and thinks it reads. The glance sees little in women-centric stories besides cheap sentiment or its opposite, the terrifically uninteresting compensatory propaganda of “female strength.” It concludes, quite rightly, that Strong Female Lead is not a story but a billboard.

The male glance is the opposite of the male gaze. Rather than linger lovingly on the parts it wants most to penetrate, it looks, assumes, and moves on. It is, above all else, quick. Under its influence, we rejoice in our distant diagnostic speed. The glance is social and ethical the way advice columns are social and ethical, a communal pulse declaring—briefly, definitively, and with minimal information—which narrative textures constitute turgid substance, which diastolic fluff. This is the male glance’s sub rosa work, and it feeds an inchoate, almost erotic hunger to know without attending—to omnisciently not-attend, to reject without taking the trouble of analytical labor because our intuition is so searingly accurate it doesn’t require it. Here again, we’re closer to the amateur astronomer than to the explorer. Rather than investigate or discover, we point and classify.

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Re: The Heroine's Journey/Rey's Journey

Post by DeeBee on Mon 12 Mar 2018, 7:30 pm

Hi all,
I just want to include this RJ quote here.. I shared bits of this back on page 1, but have found the full quote. And I think it makes better sense as a whole. It's such a fantastic quote about Rey!

Empire Film Podcast, January 2018, Rian Johnson Quote wrote: I went through all the possibilities of who her parents could be. I made a list, with the upsides and downsides. There were two things about this option that made it feel right to me. Firstly. I like the idea that we're breaking out from the notion that the force is this genetic thing that you have to be tied to somebody to have. It's the 'anybody can be president' idea. Which I liked introducing. The foremost thing was just dramatically, storytelling-wise. The way I like to put it is, in The Empire Strikes Back, the big revelation is 'I am your father.' It's a big surprise, but I think the reason it lands is not because of that, but because it's the hardest possible thing that Luke, and hence the audience, could hear at that moment. You've had a bad guy that you can hate, that you can project your shadow on to cleanly, he's evil. It's simple. With that one line, suddenly that easy answer gets taken away from you, and he's something our protagonist has a relationship to and has to think in more complex terms, in terms of layers of redemption. For me, if Rey had gotten the answer that she's related to so-and-so, had learned her place in the story, that would be the easiest thing she can here. The hardest thing to hear is, 'nope, this not going to define you.' And in fact, Kylo is going to use this to try and undercut your confidence so you'll feel you have to lean on him for your identity. And you're going to have to make the choice to find your own identity in this story."
Source: https://www.empireonline.com/movies/news/star-wars-last-jedi-empire-podcast-spoiler-special-rian-johnson/

I think in terms of understanding Rey and her journey for TLJ this is pure gold!
Rey gets her answers, and finds she has to make a choice about her own identity and where she fits in the story.

@motherofpearl1 wrote:
@snufkin wrote:My thought was that the Force and the Jedi are the McGuffin for Rey’s quest. Luke calls her out as much and what she admits about something always being in her, that’s no longer dormant, and it scares her - it’s really about the suppressed trauma of what happened to her as a small child and how she’s no longer able to keep lying to herself about it. The truth that is her family. That’s really what drives the bond and mutual curiosity she and Ben have and why the keep circling around each other. He literally feels it to because of what happened to him. The Force and Jedi lore is secondary, it’s about how Ben helps awaken and exorcise that part of her. It’ll just remain to see how cathartic it turns out to be for each of them.
@snufkin

Look between the lines, past the quips and special effects and the ST is really the story of abused children. The little boy stolen from his family and brainwashed into being a fanatical soldier - that is happening all over the Third World. The little girl sold for drinking money - how many addicts have been known to sell their kids for drugs? The child whose successful parents failed to see his abuse.....all too common.b Which is why I have so much respect for the ST, especially TLJ which took the subjects introduced inTFA and ran with them. And why I still think it should have been Oscar nominated.
@motherofpearl1

Snufkin interesting thoughts on the force and the jedi being the McGuffin for Rey’s quest.  I agree that it is a device to tell her story, but I would not identify it as a McGuffin- As  I don’t think it is only a device  – and for me the force and the jedi have their own place in the overall narrative. In a sense the force is almost its own character we see across all IX movies … but this is the Rey thread so I will hold that thought.  
Indeed trauma has shaped Rey into who she is, how she sees and responds to the world. This is great insights Snufkin and Motherofpearl. I love it.

I don’t know, I keep resisting comparisons between Rey’s relationship with Kylo/Ben and with the force. Or identifying one as primary and the other as secondary to her journey. Maybe because I see it as all mixed up, intertwined.. I do think they are both very important though.

I so agree Motherofpearl – I love that SW went there with parents who so woefully let Rey down – I respect Rey’s character for what she has survived!  

I think in TLJ we see Rey develop her relationship with both Kylo/Ben and the force, and they are both very important to her journey..
But if Rey’s journey in TLJ was to choose her identity moving forward, I’d say she chose to find it in the force, and not in Kylo/Ben. Whoooo is that controversial?
RJ’s comments above highlight how Rey chose not to find her identify in Kylo/Ben – she will make her own path. Which IMHO is a healthier way to approach an eventual reylo romance- if she had relied only on him this would have been a level of enmeshment that is not healthy or ‘balanced’ and would remind me of Anakin’s love for Padme – a toxic kind of love that tears down or weakens when love should build up and strengthen.

Rey’s awakened force powers and her future place in the galaxy is tied up with her extraordinary force abilities – and the will of the force. The novelisation seems to be full of references to her accepting and embracing this by the end of TLJ.
By the end of TLJ, Rey’s identify as a force user is central to who she is and her place in the galaxy and I think that is a wonderful thing.
So now she has found her path – we need to wait to see if Kylo/Ben will join her in this journey – because he needs to be her partner, not her identity. Make sense? Oh I hope so.  Razz

Given the powerful force bond connection Rey shares with Kylo/Ben – I think Rey’s choice to follow a different path is even more courageous than it would have been had they not be tied together in such a way.. The courage it took for Rey to do this is IMHO greatly underestimated-hoping this will be made plain in IX! It's Rey's triumph over her past in a way... For someone with Rey’s traumatic background and deep seated need for belonging and a place – forging her own path is the toughest thing that could have been asked of her.. and she rose to that challenge. Claps
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