Discussion: Podcasts

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Re: Discussion: Podcasts

Post by whisperingwillow on Tue 23 Jan - 11:46

KrazyForKylo wrote:
@Cowgirlsamurai wrote:

I don't consider Bryan Young an "anti," thought maybe I don't understand the meaning of that word fully. I don't think he's against Reylo or Rendemption, he just doesn't see it happening and I was surprised. Sorry if I should have posted my thoughts in another thread. A mod can move the convo if necessary.
@Cowgirlsamurai

I don’t consider Bryan Young an anti, either. He does at least recognise some connection between Rey and Kylo, even if he considers it one-sided on Kylo’s part and thinks he has to sacrifice himself for her, the galaxy, and the force. He’s not hostile towards Reylo shippers like some other vocal members of the Star Wars fandom.

For example, Jason Fry is a fan of his podcasts and, judging by his tweets, he certainly seems to see things from a similar POV. It will be interesting to read his take on it all in TLJ novelisation.
@KrazyForKylo

I don’t consider him an anti either. He is welcome to have a different opinion than I do or anyone else does on here and I definitely don’t disagree with the fact that Kylo is going to have to make a major sacrifice to save her and the galaxy. I just take issue with the fact some think the only way to redemption is death. Vader played the role of the father. His time had passed when he was redeemed. Kylo plays the role of the son and of a young youth. He has far more to give in this story than to just die a heroic death in the end. Part of being a youth is coming to terms with the different parts of yourself and accepting the past and moving forward. Something Kylo has yet to be able to do. If Kylo is meant to represent the rebellious youth what message does it send for him to just die in the end. That ultimately the only way back from the dark side is death? I have no issue in the end if say he gives up his force powers and returns the skywalkers just back to the simple family they were before and maybe it is just personal but giving him the backstory you did and having done to Luke, Leia and Han what was done it is an awful story to me for him to just die in the end.
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Re: Discussion: Podcasts

Post by Cowgirlsamurai on Tue 23 Jan - 11:48

[edit]
@FrolickingFizzgig

I thought the topic of my conversation was a podcast. That's why I posted it in the podcast thread. I figured if anyone listened to Full of Sith, it would be followers of this thread. ALL of the threads here are basically a discussion about the likelihood of Reylo/Rendemption happening in a way, so both evidence for and against them will tend to pop up in them all.


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Re: Discussion: Podcasts

Post by rawpowah on Tue 23 Jan - 11:49

Yeah tbh I don't want to come into contact with anti/opposing perspectives much since I get anxious easily. They also tend to gaslight those who don't share their views, and I don't want this in my life. In particular, big name journalists/writers (or whatever job the people you all mentioned above have) tend to use their profession and writing experience to impose their views and predictions as the correct ones, making you feel that your own opinions are somehow wrong because you don't have the high status or experience they do.

And now I found out Jason Fry's perspective and I'm back to my anxiety because he wrote the novelization and idk how much that matches with Rian's and influences the next movie. *sigh*
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Re: Discussion: Podcasts

Post by Cowgirlsamurai on Tue 23 Jan - 11:52

@rawpowah wrote:Yeah tbh I don't want to come into contact with anti/opposing perspectives much since I get anxious easily. They also tend to gaslight those who don't share their views, and I don't want this in my life. In particular, big name journalists/writers (or whatever job the people you all mentioned above have) tend to use their profession and writing experience to impose their views and predictions as the correct ones, making you feel that your own opinions are somehow wrong because you don't have the high status or experience they do.

And now I found out Jason Fry's perspective and I'm back to my anxiety because he wrote the novelization and idk how much that matches with Rian's and influences the next movie. *sigh*
@rawpowah

I think Fry has written the novel the way they wanted him to. It's just how he interprets that story and it's effect on the next that might differ. He doesn't know what's going to happen in Episode 9, so don't fret.
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Re: Discussion: Podcasts

Post by Guest on Tue 23 Jan - 12:17

@snufkin wrote:
@IoJovi wrote:Maybe it's just me, I am pretty sure this trilogy is meant to be looked at through a Reylo lens, given what we got in TLJ.  I stated after TLJ I am not letting anyone guilt trip me into managing my expectations after getting what we got, and that still holds true now.

If Ben dies, the ENTIRE MESSAGE of the ST is that the Skywalkers were wrong to exist in the first place - what a happy and uplifting message it would send that they've finally been eradicated.  Not even going into how dreadfully awful that sounds, let's talk about it from a business perspective.  That message would be a disaster for both Disney and Lucasfilm from a financial standpoint.   Disney did not make that purchase for billions of dollars to let the family's last heir die unredeemed and without love.
@IoJovi

It's not just you, I find the whole line of argument to be a prime example of bothsideism. Remind me again when Big Name Fanboys have seriously and earnestly ever discussed this topic without resorting to dismissive comments about shipping and fan fiction? When there are many of us who are not interested in fandom, shipping, or fan fiction? It's also a prime example of the  unexamined sexism within SW fandom. Because how f**king often do women have to feel like they're "on the defensive" for having an opinion and provide a goddamn PhD dissertation to support their argument and meanwhile any dude who came up within reading the EU novels and being a RPG player can get treated like an expert and set up a Patreon. Pro-tip - this isn't just about Star Wars, this is about literally any type of topic where any male voice gets treated as a goddamn expert who needs to be listened to and privileged versus female voices having to justify, speak from a position of defensiveness, and "manage their expectations" about being listened to. How about the fanboys with a Patreon for a change actually stop talking about what they think is going to happen and listen to other fans? Especially the female fans who aren't clamoring to get into the Boy's Clubhouse? The most ironic part about this is that the filmmakers are trying to hit the audience over the head with lines like "Women always figure out the truth" and "The girl, Rey, she already has everything that she needs." And you don't think that Luke's whole "THE SACRED TEXTS!!!" freakout isn't some type of comment on that type of predominantly male fan mindset that the filmmakers are trying to say, hey maybe it's time to look beyond that.

Also addendum, I'm not really on Twitter for Star Wars but I do get various threads pushed to me by that platform. And sure, 80% is a good mark. But I seem to recall that somebody being rather condescending in response to a thoughtful, brilliant, and all around lovely member of this forum discussing the amount of sheer vitriol and abuse she's been on the receiving end for simply wanting to discuss what she saw as the arc for these characters and narrative. As in dismissing it as mere shipping, which at this point is a dog whistle (along with fan fiction) for being not the "right" type of fan and especially not the "right" type of female fan. I get pretty irritated with the silliness which sometimes gets dragged over here from the worst of the Tumblr freak outs. But there's some serious snideness and "I'm above all of that" in those type of comments and atttitudes. Which again, get mixed up in some pretty low-key sexism for not being the "right" type of female fan.
@snufkin

[edit], I certainly don’t believe all the negative aspects of fandom come from antis or other fans who don’t agree 100% with my interpretation of the story. I’m not defending the vocal fans who do make derogatory remarks about the Reylo fandom POV or personally attack/mock/denigrate Reylo shippers, but they’re not all like that, even when a Reylo/Kylo HEA isn’t their preferred option.


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Re: Discussion: Podcasts

Post by FrolickingFizzgig on Tue 23 Jan - 12:23

KrazyForKylo wrote:
@snufkin wrote:
@IoJovi wrote:Maybe it's just me, I am pretty sure this trilogy is meant to be looked at through a Reylo lens, given what we got in TLJ.  I stated after TLJ I am not letting anyone guilt trip me into managing my expectations after getting what we got, and that still holds true now.

If Ben dies, the ENTIRE MESSAGE of the ST is that the Skywalkers were wrong to exist in the first place - what a happy and uplifting message it would send that they've finally been eradicated.  Not even going into how dreadfully awful that sounds, let's talk about it from a business perspective.  That message would be a disaster for both Disney and Lucasfilm from a financial standpoint.   Disney did not make that purchase for billions of dollars to let the family's last heir die unredeemed and without love.
@IoJovi

It's not just you, I find the whole line of argument to be a prime example of bothsideism. Remind me again when Big Name Fanboys have seriously and earnestly ever discussed this topic without resorting to dismissive comments about shipping and fan fiction? When there are many of us who are not interested in fandom, shipping, or fan fiction? It's also a prime example of the  unexamined sexism within SW fandom. Because how f**king often do women have to feel like they're "on the defensive" for having an opinion and provide a goddamn PhD dissertation to support their argument and meanwhile any dude who came up within reading the EU novels and being a RPG player can get treated like an expert and set up a Patreon. Pro-tip - this isn't just about Star Wars, this is about literally any type of topic where any male voice gets treated as a goddamn expert who needs to be listened to and privileged versus female voices having to justify, speak from a position of defensiveness, and "manage their expectations" about being listened to. How about the fanboys with a Patreon for a change actually stop talking about what they think is going to happen and listen to other fans? Especially the female fans who aren't clamoring to get into the Boy's Clubhouse? The most ironic part about this is that the filmmakers are trying to hit the audience over the head with lines like "Women always figure out the truth" and "The girl, Rey, she already has everything that she needs." And you don't think that Luke's whole "THE SACRED TEXTS!!!" freakout isn't some type of comment on that type of predominantly male fan mindset that the filmmakers are trying to say, hey maybe it's time to look beyond that.

Also addendum, I'm not really on Twitter for Star Wars but I do get various threads pushed to me by that platform. And sure, 80% is a good mark. But I seem to recall that somebody being rather condescending in response to a thoughtful, brilliant, and all around lovely member of this forum discussing the amount of sheer vitriol and abuse she's been on the receiving end for simply wanting to discuss what she saw as the arc for these characters and narrative. As in dismissing it as mere shipping, which at this point is a dog whistle (along with fan fiction) for being not the "right" type of fan and especially not the "right" type of female fan. I get pretty irritated with the silliness which sometimes gets dragged over here from the worst of the Tumblr freak outs. But there's some serious snideness and "I'm above all of that" in those type of comments and atttitudes. Which again, get mixed up in some pretty low-key sexism for not being the "right" type of female fan.
@snufkin

[edit], I certainly don’t believe all the negative aspects of fandom come from antis or other fans who don’t agree 100% with my interpretation of the story. I’m not defending the vocal fans who do make derogatory remarks about the Reylo fandom POV or personally attack/mock/denigrate Reylo shippers, but they’re not all like that, even when a Reylo/Kylo HEA isn’t their preferred option.
@KrazyForKylo
[edit]


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Re: Discussion: Podcasts

Post by snufkin on Tue 23 Jan - 12:24

@KrazyForKylo - you're welcome to your interpretation but to reduce it to "even when a Reylo/Kylo HEA isn’t their preferred option" is exactly the type of low-key attitude of sexism/dismissal a lot of us are talking about. This isn't about shipping for a lot of us, it's merely understanding how characters and narratives work within the context of literature and film language. Which show me how any of these type of those (nearly almost always male) fans have ever entered into those type of discussions with good faith versus the endless nitpicking over canon and hagiography around Luke Skywalker.
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Re: Discussion: Podcasts

Post by Darth Rowan on Tue 23 Jan - 12:26

Mod note:
Let's keep it civil or move on from the subject.

Looking at what's playing out, I can understand why someone making a point about why Kylo Ren deserves to be killed off at the end of the ST can be considered baiting by some people at the Reylo forum, where Kylo Ren is a beloved character that a lot of us identify with. But at the same time, it should be a topic that can be discussed among us freely without it turning into a brawl.  Not every opinion we disagree with is baiting, and by the same token sometimes it's not the topic itself but the approach to it that people take issue with. Let's keep that in mind, all of us.

Let's see if we can keep the conversation going without it causing escalation of underlying and past conflict here. If it turns into the airing of personal issues we will ask people to move the discussion to PM. If it's about "being tired of X or Y" then please move it to the Fan Fatigue area. Feel free to PM the staff with questions or concerns. Thanks!

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Re: Discussion: Podcasts

Post by Tex on Tue 23 Jan - 12:55

@snufkin wrote:
@IoJovi wrote:Maybe it's just me, I am pretty sure this trilogy is meant to be looked at through a Reylo lens, given what we got in TLJ.  I stated after TLJ I am not letting anyone guilt trip me into managing my expectations after getting what we got, and that still holds true now.

If Ben dies, the ENTIRE MESSAGE of the ST is that the Skywalkers were wrong to exist in the first place - what a happy and uplifting message it would send that they've finally been eradicated.  Not even going into how dreadfully awful that sounds, let's talk about it from a business perspective.  That message would be a disaster for both Disney and Lucasfilm from a financial standpoint.   Disney did not make that purchase for billions of dollars to let the family's last heir die unredeemed and without love.
@IoJovi

It's not just you, I find the whole line of argument to be a prime example of bothsideism. Remind me again when Big Name Fanboys have seriously and earnestly ever discussed this topic without resorting to dismissive comments about shipping and fan fiction? When there are many of us who are not interested in fandom, shipping, or fan fiction? It's also a prime example of the  unexamined sexism within SW fandom. Because how f**king often do women have to feel like they're "on the defensive" for having an opinion and provide a goddamn PhD dissertation to support their argument and meanwhile any dude who came up within reading the EU novels and being a RPG player can get treated like an expert and set up a Patreon. Pro-tip - this isn't just about Star Wars, this is about literally any type of topic where any male voice gets treated as a goddamn expert who needs to be listened to and privileged versus female voices having to justify, speak from a position of defensiveness, and "manage their expectations" about being listened to. How about the fanboys with a Patreon for a change actually stop talking about what they think is going to happen and listen to other fans? Especially the female fans who aren't clamoring to get into the Boy's Clubhouse? The most ironic part about this is that the filmmakers are trying to hit the audience over the head with lines like "Women always figure out the truth" and "The girl, Rey, she already has everything that she needs." And you don't think that Luke's whole "THE SACRED TEXTS!!!" freakout isn't some type of comment on that type of predominantly male fan mindset that the filmmakers are trying to say, hey maybe it's time to look beyond that.

Also addendum, I'm not really on Twitter for Star Wars but I do get various threads pushed to me by that platform. And sure, 80% is a good mark. But I seem to recall that somebody being rather condescending in response to a thoughtful, brilliant, and all around lovely member of this forum discussing the amount of sheer vitriol and abuse she's been on the receiving end for simply wanting to discuss what she saw as the arc for these characters and narrative. As in dismissing it as mere shipping, which at this point is a dog whistle (along with fan fiction) for being not the "right" type of fan and especially not the "right" type of female fan. I get pretty irritated with the silliness which sometimes gets dragged over here from the worst of the Tumblr freak outs. But there's some serious snideness and "I'm above all of that" in those type of comments and atttitudes. Which again, get mixed up in some pretty low-key sexism for not being the "right" type of female fan.
@snufkin

Claps Claps Claps

I sort of got teary eyed reading this. Being a female fan in any male dominated community is extremely difficult. You are held to different standards and are often pegged as a fair weather fan who's a "poser" for a lack of a better word. I did a panel once specifically on female fans and the comic book character The Incredible Hulk. A small snipet of that was me talking about how I owned a Hulk shirt and whenever I would wear it out in public I would get constantly stopped on the street and asked about my shirt. It wasn't to say how cool my shirt was, but to ask me if I was really a fan of The Hulk, proceeded by questions, like have I read any of the comics, have I watched the TV show, etc. At which point the conversation always ended with a "I don't really know any girls who like The Hulk". Which surprise there are a lot of women who like The Hulk, hence all the ladies at the panel.

Going back to how women are treated and not just in nerd culture. Sports fandom is a big culprit. I'm often reminded of a passage from Gone Girl by Gillian Flynn:

Men always say that as the defining compliment, don’t they? She’s a cool girl. Being the Cool Girl means I am a hot, brilliant, funny woman who adores football, poker, dirty jokes, and burping, who plays video games, drinks cheap beer, loves threesomes and anal sex, and jams hot dogs and hamburgers into her mouth like she’s hosting the world’s biggest culinary gang bang while somehow maintaining a size 2, because Cool Girls are above all hot. Hot and understanding. Cool Girls never get angry; they only smile in a chagrined, loving manner and let their men do whatever they want. Go ahead, s*** on me, I don’t mind, I’m the Cool Girl.

Full quote HERE

The male dominated fandom doesn't really want you to have an opinion on Football, Star Wars, (insert fandom here). Oh and lord if you should have an opinion that differs from them, if you should want representation in said media that doesn't revolve around being fridged or being a sex object.
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Re: Discussion: Podcasts

Post by IoJovi on Tue 23 Jan - 13:12

@Tex wrote:
@snufkin wrote:
@IoJovi wrote:Maybe it's just me, I am pretty sure this trilogy is meant to be looked at through a Reylo lens, given what we got in TLJ.  I stated after TLJ I am not letting anyone guilt trip me into managing my expectations after getting what we got, and that still holds true now.

If Ben dies, the ENTIRE MESSAGE of the ST is that the Skywalkers were wrong to exist in the first place - what a happy and uplifting message it would send that they've finally been eradicated.  Not even going into how dreadfully awful that sounds, let's talk about it from a business perspective.  That message would be a disaster for both Disney and Lucasfilm from a financial standpoint.   Disney did not make that purchase for billions of dollars to let the family's last heir die unredeemed and without love.
@IoJovi

It's not just you, I find the whole line of argument to be a prime example of bothsideism. Remind me again when Big Name Fanboys have seriously and earnestly ever discussed this topic without resorting to dismissive comments about shipping and fan fiction? When there are many of us who are not interested in fandom, shipping, or fan fiction? It's also a prime example of the  unexamined sexism within SW fandom. Because how f**king often do women have to feel like they're "on the defensive" for having an opinion and provide a goddamn PhD dissertation to support their argument and meanwhile any dude who came up within reading the EU novels and being a RPG player can get treated like an expert and set up a Patreon. Pro-tip - this isn't just about Star Wars, this is about literally any type of topic where any male voice gets treated as a goddamn expert who needs to be listened to and privileged versus female voices having to justify, speak from a position of defensiveness, and "manage their expectations" about being listened to. How about the fanboys with a Patreon for a change actually stop talking about what they think is going to happen and listen to other fans? Especially the female fans who aren't clamoring to get into the Boy's Clubhouse? The most ironic part about this is that the filmmakers are trying to hit the audience over the head with lines like "Women always figure out the truth" and "The girl, Rey, she already has everything that she needs." And you don't think that Luke's whole "THE SACRED TEXTS!!!" freakout isn't some type of comment on that type of predominantly male fan mindset that the filmmakers are trying to say, hey maybe it's time to look beyond that.

Also addendum, I'm not really on Twitter for Star Wars but I do get various threads pushed to me by that platform. And sure, 80% is a good mark. But I seem to recall that somebody being rather condescending in response to a thoughtful, brilliant, and all around lovely member of this forum discussing the amount of sheer vitriol and abuse she's been on the receiving end for simply wanting to discuss what she saw as the arc for these characters and narrative. As in dismissing it as mere shipping, which at this point is a dog whistle (along with fan fiction) for being not the "right" type of fan and especially not the "right" type of female fan. I get pretty irritated with the silliness which sometimes gets dragged over here from the worst of the Tumblr freak outs. But there's some serious snideness and "I'm above all of that" in those type of comments and atttitudes. Which again, get mixed up in some pretty low-key sexism for not being the "right" type of female fan.
@snufkin

Claps Claps Claps

I sort of got teary eyed reading this. Being a female fan in any male dominated community is extremely difficult. You are held to different standards and are often pegged as a fair weather fan who's a "poser" for a lack of a better word. I did a panel once specifically on female fans and the comic book character The Incredible Hulk. A small snipet of that was me talking about how I owned a Hulk shirt and whenever I would wear it out in public I would get constantly stopped on the street and asked about my shirt. It wasn't to say how cool my shirt was, but to ask me if I was really a fan of The Hulk, proceeded by questions, like have I read any of the comics, have I watched the TV show, etc. At which point the conversation always ended with a "I don't really know any girls who like The Hulk". Which surprise there are a lot of women who like The Hulk, hence all the ladies at the panel.

Going back to how women are treated and not just in nerd culture. Sports fandom is a big culprit. I'm often reminded of a passage from Gone Girl by Gillian Flynn:

Men always say that as the defining compliment, don’t they? She’s a cool girl. Being the Cool Girl means I am a hot, brilliant, funny woman who adores football, poker, dirty jokes, and burping, who plays video games, drinks cheap beer, loves threesomes and anal sex, and jams hot dogs and hamburgers into her mouth like she’s hosting the world’s biggest culinary gang bang while somehow maintaining a size 2, because Cool Girls are above all hot. Hot and understanding. Cool Girls never get angry; they only smile in a chagrined, loving manner and let their men do whatever they want. Go ahead, s*** on me, I don’t mind, I’m the Cool Girl.

Full quote HERE

The male dominated fandom doesn't really want you to have an opinion on Football, Star Wars, (insert fandom here). Oh and lord if you should have an opinion that differs from them, if you should want representation in said media that doesn't revolve around being fridged or being a sex object.
@Tex

Exactly this and you summed it up precisely why I refuse to give "the other side" any credence whatsoever.   I have yet to see anything constructive come from them when we got 90% right for TLJ and have a far better track record.  I have no interest in keeping an open mind about reylo never being addressed again in IX or seeing the one last Skywalker heir die unredeemed.  If that happens (and I doubt it will), Lucasfilm will never get another dollar from me, and that is my choice as a fan.  I don't need to "keep an open mind" for anyone.
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Re: Discussion: Podcasts

Post by Birdwoman on Tue 23 Jan - 13:14

@Tex and @Snufkin,
Completely agree with your posts.  I noticed that behavior towards my daughter, she is a tom boy and loves animals.  Hates the whole Disney princess stuff. Loved Darth Vader, Iron Man ect.  One time, we were in the mountains visiting a gold rush town.  We bought her a little wooden snake that we called Elvis, because it was a king snake.  So many strangers commented to her about the snake, why she liked it or were shocked a cute little girl would love snakes.  It really started to annoy me.  She is allowed to like anything she wants. Wink

This is why I am selective of which forums to participate at in the Star Wars fandom.  I find this site has intelligent conversations about the movie. I enjoy the analysis of literature and film making here. I do branch out and lurk at different forums to see what people are talking about but that is about it.

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Re: Discussion: Podcasts

Post by IoJovi on Tue 23 Jan - 13:18

@Birdwoman wrote:@Tex and @Snufkin,
Completely agree with your posts.  I noticed that behavior towards my daughter, she is a tom boy and loves animals.  Hates the whole Disney princess stuff. Loved Darth Vader, Iron Man ect.  One time, we were in the mountains visiting a gold rush town.  We bought her a little wooden snake that we called Elvis, because it was a king snake.  So many strangers commented to her about the snake, why she liked it or were shocked a cute little girl would love snakes.  It really started to annoy me.  She is allowed to like anything she wants. Wink

This is why I am selective of which forums to participate at in the Star Wars fandom.  I find this site has intelligent conversations about the movie. I enjoy the analysis of literature and film making here. I do branch out and lurk at different forums to see what people are talking about but that is about it.
@Birdwoman

Exactly! I come here to get away from it.  If I wanted to participate in that drivel, there's plenty of other places I could go to do so.  This is a safe haven, and I want to keep it that way.
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Re: Discussion: Podcasts

Post by Darth_Awakened on Tue 23 Jan - 13:26

I think the worst thing is telling people HOW to enjoy something or what they SHOULD enjoy. And it isn't really about the different opinions.

No wonder that's exactly the type of behavior that provokes the most negative reactions.

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Re: Discussion: Podcasts

Post by Darth Dingbat on Tue 23 Jan - 13:28

@IoJovi wrote:
@Tex wrote:
@snufkin wrote:
@IoJovi wrote:Maybe it's just me, I am pretty sure this trilogy is meant to be looked at through a Reylo lens, given what we got in TLJ.  I stated after TLJ I am not letting anyone guilt trip me into managing my expectations after getting what we got, and that still holds true now.

If Ben dies, the ENTIRE MESSAGE of the ST is that the Skywalkers were wrong to exist in the first place - what a happy and uplifting message it would send that they've finally been eradicated.  Not even going into how dreadfully awful that sounds, let's talk about it from a business perspective.  That message would be a disaster for both Disney and Lucasfilm from a financial standpoint.   Disney did not make that purchase for billions of dollars to let the family's last heir die unredeemed and without love.
@IoJovi

It's not just you, I find the whole line of argument to be a prime example of bothsideism. Remind me again when Big Name Fanboys have seriously and earnestly ever discussed this topic without resorting to dismissive comments about shipping and fan fiction? When there are many of us who are not interested in fandom, shipping, or fan fiction? It's also a prime example of the  unexamined sexism within SW fandom. Because how f**king often do women have to feel like they're "on the defensive" for having an opinion and provide a goddamn PhD dissertation to support their argument and meanwhile any dude who came up within reading the EU novels and being a RPG player can get treated like an expert and set up a Patreon. Pro-tip - this isn't just about Star Wars, this is about literally any type of topic where any male voice gets treated as a goddamn expert who needs to be listened to and privileged versus female voices having to justify, speak from a position of defensiveness, and "manage their expectations" about being listened to. How about the fanboys with a Patreon for a change actually stop talking about what they think is going to happen and listen to other fans? Especially the female fans who aren't clamoring to get into the Boy's Clubhouse? The most ironic part about this is that the filmmakers are trying to hit the audience over the head with lines like "Women always figure out the truth" and "The girl, Rey, she already has everything that she needs." And you don't think that Luke's whole "THE SACRED TEXTS!!!" freakout isn't some type of comment on that type of predominantly male fan mindset that the filmmakers are trying to say, hey maybe it's time to look beyond that.

Also addendum, I'm not really on Twitter for Star Wars but I do get various threads pushed to me by that platform. And sure, 80% is a good mark. But I seem to recall that somebody being rather condescending in response to a thoughtful, brilliant, and all around lovely member of this forum discussing the amount of sheer vitriol and abuse she's been on the receiving end for simply wanting to discuss what she saw as the arc for these characters and narrative. As in dismissing it as mere shipping, which at this point is a dog whistle (along with fan fiction) for being not the "right" type of fan and especially not the "right" type of female fan. I get pretty irritated with the silliness which sometimes gets dragged over here from the worst of the Tumblr freak outs. But there's some serious snideness and "I'm above all of that" in those type of comments and atttitudes. Which again, get mixed up in some pretty low-key sexism for not being the "right" type of female fan.
@snufkin

Claps Claps Claps

I sort of got teary eyed reading this. Being a female fan in any male dominated community is extremely difficult. You are held to different standards and are often pegged as a fair weather fan who's a "poser" for a lack of a better word. I did a panel once specifically on female fans and the comic book character The Incredible Hulk. A small snipet of that was me talking about how I owned a Hulk shirt and whenever I would wear it out in public I would get constantly stopped on the street and asked about my shirt. It wasn't to say how cool my shirt was, but to ask me if I was really a fan of The Hulk, proceeded by questions, like have I read any of the comics, have I watched the TV show, etc. At which point the conversation always ended with a "I don't really know any girls who like The Hulk". Which surprise there are a lot of women who like The Hulk, hence all the ladies at the panel.

Going back to how women are treated and not just in nerd culture. Sports fandom is a big culprit. I'm often reminded of a passage from Gone Girl by Gillian Flynn:

Men always say that as the defining compliment, don’t they? She’s a cool girl. Being the Cool Girl means I am a hot, brilliant, funny woman who adores football, poker, dirty jokes, and burping, who plays video games, drinks cheap beer, loves threesomes and anal sex, and jams hot dogs and hamburgers into her mouth like she’s hosting the world’s biggest culinary gang bang while somehow maintaining a size 2, because Cool Girls are above all hot. Hot and understanding. Cool Girls never get angry; they only smile in a chagrined, loving manner and let their men do whatever they want. Go ahead, s*** on me, I don’t mind, I’m the Cool Girl.

Full quote HERE

The male dominated fandom doesn't really want you to have an opinion on Football, Star Wars, (insert fandom here). Oh and lord if you should have an opinion that differs from them, if you should want representation in said media that doesn't revolve around being fridged or being a sex object.
@Tex

Exactly this and you summed it up precisely why I refuse to give "the other side" any credence whatsoever.   I have yet to see anything constructive come from them when we got 90% right for TLJ and have a far better track record.  I have no interest in keeping an open mind about reylo never being addressed again in IX or seeing the one last Skywalker heir die unredeemed.  If that happens (and I doubt it will), Lucasfilm will never get another dollar from me, and that is my choice as a fan.  I don't need to "keep an open mind" for anyone.
@IoJovi

This.

When it comes to fiction, I just don't see how anyone is obliged to be fair. You don't have to patiently listen to everybody's opinions and theories in the name of fairness. You also don't have to enjoy every potential story direction equally and give every potential execution thereof a gold star just because they tried.

My motto when it comes to something like SW is that if I'm not interested in it, I won't go on watching it. And that goes 2x for fandom blather. I just don't understand how and why one is expected to spend one's spare time reading or listening to fandom theories that one disagrees with, as if this were a Fandom University and you got a course credit for each new Snoke theory.
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Re: Discussion: Podcasts

Post by snufkin on Tue 23 Jan - 13:35

@Birdwoman wrote:@Tex and @Snufkin,
Completely agree with your posts.  I noticed that behavior towards my daughter, she is a tom boy and loves animals.  Hates the whole Disney princess stuff. Loved Darth Vader, Iron Man ect.  One time, we were in the mountains visiting a gold rush town.  We bought her a little wooden snake that we called Elvis, because it was a king snake.  So many strangers commented to her about the snake, why she liked it or were shocked a cute little girl would love snakes.  It really started to annoy me.  She is allowed to like anything she wants. Wink

This is why I am selective of which forums to participate at in the Star Wars fandom.  I find this site has intelligent conversations about the movie. I enjoy the analysis of literature and film making here. I do branch out and lurk at different forums to see what people are talking about but that is about it.

@Birdwoman - Gold Country you were likely in my neighborhood or close enough! That's kind of the point @Tex was making, no matter what, if you're female and interested in something that's not traditionally coded as being something we "should" like (or like in the "right" way), you will get your interest and position attacked. Which the entire re-launch of the franchise with a female protagonist under a female led production and executive team is such a case study in this. Because there's the whole "Girls don't like Star Wars" mentality (which Where the F**K did that come from? Also not around when I was a child fan of the OT) they're battling against for fanboy gatekeeping. And then even within the fans who aren't those type of regressive misogynistic fans, it's like you still get your interest and not having the "right" type of interest questioned. Like I said, I have some mutuals (mostly from here) on Twitter who are focused on SW so I get those threads pushed to me. And there's still some serious unexamined, internalized sexism even within progressive minded fans. Like writing off any types of discussions we've had here (which is why I always point out that I am neither involved with fan fiction or shipping) as fantasy or not the "right" (read doesn't center the interests/experiences of a traditionally predominantly male fandom) way to read the characters and story. And the endless going back and forth over canon, what George Lucas wanted/believes, and world building is patently male behavior in geek spaces, going back to the early days of RPGs like Dungeons and Dragons. Which nothing against RPGs and D&D because I know some of you ladies enjoy those activities, but that's a whole culture right there developed and centered around male fans, their perspectives, and interests. So to use the argument that I should go listen to somebody from that perspective says less to me about their having a perspective/information I've closed myself off to and more about having to yet again jump through another gate set up by a type of discussion which privileges the male perspective/experience. WHich by all appearances is something LF's executive team under KK's leadership is trying to push the franchise and fandom away from.

@Darth Dingbat - LOL at Fandom University. The courses I'd most interested in taking are Kylo's Haircare Best Practices 101 and Criterion Collection Influences.

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Re: Discussion: Podcasts

Post by IoJovi on Tue 23 Jan - 13:36

@Darth Dingbat wrote:
@IoJovi wrote:
@Tex wrote:
@snufkin wrote:
@IoJovi wrote:Maybe it's just me, I am pretty sure this trilogy is meant to be looked at through a Reylo lens, given what we got in TLJ.  I stated after TLJ I am not letting anyone guilt trip me into managing my expectations after getting what we got, and that still holds true now.

If Ben dies, the ENTIRE MESSAGE of the ST is that the Skywalkers were wrong to exist in the first place - what a happy and uplifting message it would send that they've finally been eradicated.  Not even going into how dreadfully awful that sounds, let's talk about it from a business perspective.  That message would be a disaster for both Disney and Lucasfilm from a financial standpoint.   Disney did not make that purchase for billions of dollars to let the family's last heir die unredeemed and without love.
@IoJovi

It's not just you, I find the whole line of argument to be a prime example of bothsideism. Remind me again when Big Name Fanboys have seriously and earnestly ever discussed this topic without resorting to dismissive comments about shipping and fan fiction? When there are many of us who are not interested in fandom, shipping, or fan fiction? It's also a prime example of the  unexamined sexism within SW fandom. Because how f**king often do women have to feel like they're "on the defensive" for having an opinion and provide a goddamn PhD dissertation to support their argument and meanwhile any dude who came up within reading the EU novels and being a RPG player can get treated like an expert and set up a Patreon. Pro-tip - this isn't just about Star Wars, this is about literally any type of topic where any male voice gets treated as a goddamn expert who needs to be listened to and privileged versus female voices having to justify, speak from a position of defensiveness, and "manage their expectations" about being listened to. How about the fanboys with a Patreon for a change actually stop talking about what they think is going to happen and listen to other fans? Especially the female fans who aren't clamoring to get into the Boy's Clubhouse? The most ironic part about this is that the filmmakers are trying to hit the audience over the head with lines like "Women always figure out the truth" and "The girl, Rey, she already has everything that she needs." And you don't think that Luke's whole "THE SACRED TEXTS!!!" freakout isn't some type of comment on that type of predominantly male fan mindset that the filmmakers are trying to say, hey maybe it's time to look beyond that.

Also addendum, I'm not really on Twitter for Star Wars but I do get various threads pushed to me by that platform. And sure, 80% is a good mark. But I seem to recall that somebody being rather condescending in response to a thoughtful, brilliant, and all around lovely member of this forum discussing the amount of sheer vitriol and abuse she's been on the receiving end for simply wanting to discuss what she saw as the arc for these characters and narrative. As in dismissing it as mere shipping, which at this point is a dog whistle (along with fan fiction) for being not the "right" type of fan and especially not the "right" type of female fan. I get pretty irritated with the silliness which sometimes gets dragged over here from the worst of the Tumblr freak outs. But there's some serious snideness and "I'm above all of that" in those type of comments and atttitudes. Which again, get mixed up in some pretty low-key sexism for not being the "right" type of female fan.
@snufkin

Claps Claps Claps

I sort of got teary eyed reading this. Being a female fan in any male dominated community is extremely difficult. You are held to different standards and are often pegged as a fair weather fan who's a "poser" for a lack of a better word. I did a panel once specifically on female fans and the comic book character The Incredible Hulk. A small snipet of that was me talking about how I owned a Hulk shirt and whenever I would wear it out in public I would get constantly stopped on the street and asked about my shirt. It wasn't to say how cool my shirt was, but to ask me if I was really a fan of The Hulk, proceeded by questions, like have I read any of the comics, have I watched the TV show, etc. At which point the conversation always ended with a "I don't really know any girls who like The Hulk". Which surprise there are a lot of women who like The Hulk, hence all the ladies at the panel.

Going back to how women are treated and not just in nerd culture. Sports fandom is a big culprit. I'm often reminded of a passage from Gone Girl by Gillian Flynn:

Men always say that as the defining compliment, don’t they? She’s a cool girl. Being the Cool Girl means I am a hot, brilliant, funny woman who adores football, poker, dirty jokes, and burping, who plays video games, drinks cheap beer, loves threesomes and anal sex, and jams hot dogs and hamburgers into her mouth like she’s hosting the world’s biggest culinary gang bang while somehow maintaining a size 2, because Cool Girls are above all hot. Hot and understanding. Cool Girls never get angry; they only smile in a chagrined, loving manner and let their men do whatever they want. Go ahead, s*** on me, I don’t mind, I’m the Cool Girl.

Full quote HERE

The male dominated fandom doesn't really want you to have an opinion on Football, Star Wars, (insert fandom here). Oh and lord if you should have an opinion that differs from them, if you should want representation in said media that doesn't revolve around being fridged or being a sex object.
@Tex

Exactly this and you summed it up precisely why I refuse to give "the other side" any credence whatsoever.   I have yet to see anything constructive come from them when we got 90% right for TLJ and have a far better track record.  I have no interest in keeping an open mind about reylo never being addressed again in IX or seeing the one last Skywalker heir die unredeemed.  If that happens (and I doubt it will), Lucasfilm will never get another dollar from me, and that is my choice as a fan.  I don't need to "keep an open mind" for anyone.
@IoJovi

This.

When it comes to fiction, I just don't see how anyone is obliged to be fair. You don't have to patiently listen to everybody's opinions and theories in the name of fairness. You also don't have to enjoy every potential story direction equally and give every potential execution thereof a gold star just because they tried.

My motto when it comes to something like SW is that if I'm not interested in it, I won't go on watching it. And that goes 2x for fandom blather. I just don't understand how and why one is expected to spend one's spare time reading or listening to fandom theories that one disagrees with, as if this were a Fandom University and you got a course credit for each new Snoke theory.
@Darth Dingbat

How is that when ever I make a post, whenever you chime into add to it, you make it 10x better than it ever was to begin with?  I am literally laughing out loud at the thought of defamatory Snoke theories courses, as if it's phys ed requirement at a university, or something.  I literally am on the ground and my stomach hurts from laughing so damn hard.

lol! lol! lol!
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Re: Discussion: Podcasts

Post by Darth Dingbat on Tue 23 Jan - 13:39

@IoJovi wrote:
@Darth Dingbat wrote:
@IoJovi wrote:
@Tex wrote:
@snufkin wrote:
@IoJovi wrote:Maybe it's just me, I am pretty sure this trilogy is meant to be looked at through a Reylo lens, given what we got in TLJ.  I stated after TLJ I am not letting anyone guilt trip me into managing my expectations after getting what we got, and that still holds true now.

If Ben dies, the ENTIRE MESSAGE of the ST is that the Skywalkers were wrong to exist in the first place - what a happy and uplifting message it would send that they've finally been eradicated.  Not even going into how dreadfully awful that sounds, let's talk about it from a business perspective.  That message would be a disaster for both Disney and Lucasfilm from a financial standpoint.   Disney did not make that purchase for billions of dollars to let the family's last heir die unredeemed and without love.
@IoJovi

It's not just you, I find the whole line of argument to be a prime example of bothsideism. Remind me again when Big Name Fanboys have seriously and earnestly ever discussed this topic without resorting to dismissive comments about shipping and fan fiction? When there are many of us who are not interested in fandom, shipping, or fan fiction? It's also a prime example of the  unexamined sexism within SW fandom. Because how f**king often do women have to feel like they're "on the defensive" for having an opinion and provide a goddamn PhD dissertation to support their argument and meanwhile any dude who came up within reading the EU novels and being a RPG player can get treated like an expert and set up a Patreon. Pro-tip - this isn't just about Star Wars, this is about literally any type of topic where any male voice gets treated as a goddamn expert who needs to be listened to and privileged versus female voices having to justify, speak from a position of defensiveness, and "manage their expectations" about being listened to. How about the fanboys with a Patreon for a change actually stop talking about what they think is going to happen and listen to other fans? Especially the female fans who aren't clamoring to get into the Boy's Clubhouse? The most ironic part about this is that the filmmakers are trying to hit the audience over the head with lines like "Women always figure out the truth" and "The girl, Rey, she already has everything that she needs." And you don't think that Luke's whole "THE SACRED TEXTS!!!" freakout isn't some type of comment on that type of predominantly male fan mindset that the filmmakers are trying to say, hey maybe it's time to look beyond that.

Also addendum, I'm not really on Twitter for Star Wars but I do get various threads pushed to me by that platform. And sure, 80% is a good mark. But I seem to recall that somebody being rather condescending in response to a thoughtful, brilliant, and all around lovely member of this forum discussing the amount of sheer vitriol and abuse she's been on the receiving end for simply wanting to discuss what she saw as the arc for these characters and narrative. As in dismissing it as mere shipping, which at this point is a dog whistle (along with fan fiction) for being not the "right" type of fan and especially not the "right" type of female fan. I get pretty irritated with the silliness which sometimes gets dragged over here from the worst of the Tumblr freak outs. But there's some serious snideness and "I'm above all of that" in those type of comments and atttitudes. Which again, get mixed up in some pretty low-key sexism for not being the "right" type of female fan.
@snufkin

Claps Claps Claps

I sort of got teary eyed reading this. Being a female fan in any male dominated community is extremely difficult. You are held to different standards and are often pegged as a fair weather fan who's a "poser" for a lack of a better word. I did a panel once specifically on female fans and the comic book character The Incredible Hulk. A small snipet of that was me talking about how I owned a Hulk shirt and whenever I would wear it out in public I would get constantly stopped on the street and asked about my shirt. It wasn't to say how cool my shirt was, but to ask me if I was really a fan of The Hulk, proceeded by questions, like have I read any of the comics, have I watched the TV show, etc. At which point the conversation always ended with a "I don't really know any girls who like The Hulk". Which surprise there are a lot of women who like The Hulk, hence all the ladies at the panel.

Going back to how women are treated and not just in nerd culture. Sports fandom is a big culprit. I'm often reminded of a passage from Gone Girl by Gillian Flynn:

Men always say that as the defining compliment, don’t they? She’s a cool girl. Being the Cool Girl means I am a hot, brilliant, funny woman who adores football, poker, dirty jokes, and burping, who plays video games, drinks cheap beer, loves threesomes and anal sex, and jams hot dogs and hamburgers into her mouth like she’s hosting the world’s biggest culinary gang bang while somehow maintaining a size 2, because Cool Girls are above all hot. Hot and understanding. Cool Girls never get angry; they only smile in a chagrined, loving manner and let their men do whatever they want. Go ahead, s*** on me, I don’t mind, I’m the Cool Girl.

Full quote HERE

The male dominated fandom doesn't really want you to have an opinion on Football, Star Wars, (insert fandom here). Oh and lord if you should have an opinion that differs from them, if you should want representation in said media that doesn't revolve around being fridged or being a sex object.
@Tex

Exactly this and you summed it up precisely why I refuse to give "the other side" any credence whatsoever.   I have yet to see anything constructive come from them when we got 90% right for TLJ and have a far better track record.  I have no interest in keeping an open mind about reylo never being addressed again in IX or seeing the one last Skywalker heir die unredeemed.  If that happens (and I doubt it will), Lucasfilm will never get another dollar from me, and that is my choice as a fan.  I don't need to "keep an open mind" for anyone.
@IoJovi

This.

When it comes to fiction, I just don't see how anyone is obliged to be fair. You don't have to patiently listen to everybody's opinions and theories in the name of fairness. You also don't have to enjoy every potential story direction equally and give every potential execution thereof a gold star just because they tried.

My motto when it comes to something like SW is that if I'm not interested in it, I won't go on watching it. And that goes 2x for fandom blather. I just don't understand how and why one is expected to spend one's spare time reading or listening to fandom theories that one disagrees with, as if this were a Fandom University and you got a course credit for each new Snoke theory.
@Darth Dingbat

How is that when ever I make a post, whenever you chime into add to it, you make it 10x better than it ever was to begin with?  I am literally laughing out loud at the thought of defamatory Snoke theories courses, as if it's phys ed requirement at a university, or something.  I literally am on the ground and my stomach hurts from laughing so damn hard.

lol! lol! lol!
@IoJovi

Oi, I'm going to report you to Professor Mike Zeroh for laughing in class!
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Re: Discussion: Podcasts

Post by ISeeAnIsland on Tue 23 Jan - 13:57

@Darth_Awakened wrote:I think the worst thing is telling people HOW to enjoy something or what they SHOULD enjoy. And it isn't really about the different opinions.

No wonder that's exactly the type of behavior that provokes the most negative reactions.

@Darth_Awakened

Right. It's gatekeeping. Let's call it what it is.

And given what many of us had to deal with in other Star Wars communities on the internet before creating this forum, it's no wonder that that sort of behavior is triggering to so many people here.
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Re: Discussion: Podcasts

Post by Tex on Tue 23 Jan - 14:00

@snufkin wrote:
@Darth Dingbat - LOL at Fandom University. The courses I'd most interested in taking are Kylo's Haircare Best Practices 101 and Criterion Collection Influences.

Ha, I'd love to take those classes!

I'm ready to teach a class at that University Razz , it's entitled "Dismantling the Gate: Fandom & The Male Power Fantasy". I'd like to start the class discussing a physiological study done on young boys in the early 80's by a toy company trying to compete with Star Wars toys. What did they learn? That little boys didn't like being told what to do by the female figures in their life. So the toy company created the ultimate masculine figure HE-MAN and the catchphrase "I HAVE THE POWER". The toy would go on to outsell Star Wars toys. However, when sales dropped the men behind HE-MAN blamed the female department in the company. Why? Because they had created an equal, a female counterpart called SHE-RA. Apparently, little boys didn't like hearing their sister say "I HAVE THE POWER". Go figure Rolling Eyes
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Re: Discussion: Podcasts

Post by snufkin on Tue 23 Jan - 14:01

@Tex wrote:
@snufkin wrote:
@Darth Dingbat - LOL at Fandom University. The courses I'd most interested in taking are Kylo's Haircare Best Practices 101 and Criterion Collection Influences.

Ha, I'd love to take those classes!

I'm ready to teach a class at that University Razz , it's entitled "Dismantling the Gate: Fandom & The Male Power Fantasy". I'd like to start the class discussing a physiological study done on young boys in the early 80's by a toy company trying to compete with Star Wars toys. What did they learn? That little boys didn't like being told what to do by the female figures in their life. So the toy company created the ultimate masculine figure HE-MAN and the catchphrase "I HAVE THE POWER". The toy would go on to outsell Star Wars toys. However, when sales dropped the men behind HE-MAN blamed the female department in the company. Why? Because they had created an equal, a female counterpart called SHE-RA. Apparently, little boys didn't like hearing their sister say "I HAVE THE POWER". Go figure Rolling Eyes
@Tex

And I would take your class about dismantling the Gate!
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Re: Discussion: Podcasts

Post by ZioRen on Tue 23 Jan - 14:03

Frankly, any view or prediction of the ST that doesn't involve looking at things through the lens of Rey and Kylo's relationship being the center and heart of the story is to be disregarded entirely in my eyes. That's not simply a difference of opinion or a personal bias, it's what the directors have been telling us over and over again. Refusing to acknowledge that and form predictions around it is why all of those other fans were incorrect about TLJ and will continue to be incorrect about IX.

Rey having a satisfying ending to her story, which is heavily intertwined with Kylo's and his fate, is more important than Kylo suffering some arbitrary punishment for his crimes, like death.


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Re: Discussion: Podcasts

Post by FrolickingFizzgig on Tue 23 Jan - 14:06

@Darth Dingbat wrote:
@IoJovi wrote:
@Tex wrote:
@snufkin wrote:
@IoJovi wrote:Maybe it's just me, I am pretty sure this trilogy is meant to be looked at through a Reylo lens, given what we got in TLJ.  I stated after TLJ I am not letting anyone guilt trip me into managing my expectations after getting what we got, and that still holds true now.

If Ben dies, the ENTIRE MESSAGE of the ST is that the Skywalkers were wrong to exist in the first place - what a happy and uplifting message it would send that they've finally been eradicated.  Not even going into how dreadfully awful that sounds, let's talk about it from a business perspective.  That message would be a disaster for both Disney and Lucasfilm from a financial standpoint.   Disney did not make that purchase for billions of dollars to let the family's last heir die unredeemed and without love.
@IoJovi

It's not just you, I find the whole line of argument to be a prime example of bothsideism. Remind me again when Big Name Fanboys have seriously and earnestly ever discussed this topic without resorting to dismissive comments about shipping and fan fiction? When there are many of us who are not interested in fandom, shipping, or fan fiction? It's also a prime example of the  unexamined sexism within SW fandom. Because how f**king often do women have to feel like they're "on the defensive" for having an opinion and provide a goddamn PhD dissertation to support their argument and meanwhile any dude who came up within reading the EU novels and being a RPG player can get treated like an expert and set up a Patreon. Pro-tip - this isn't just about Star Wars, this is about literally any type of topic where any male voice gets treated as a goddamn expert who needs to be listened to and privileged versus female voices having to justify, speak from a position of defensiveness, and "manage their expectations" about being listened to. How about the fanboys with a Patreon for a change actually stop talking about what they think is going to happen and listen to other fans? Especially the female fans who aren't clamoring to get into the Boy's Clubhouse? The most ironic part about this is that the filmmakers are trying to hit the audience over the head with lines like "Women always figure out the truth" and "The girl, Rey, she already has everything that she needs." And you don't think that Luke's whole "THE SACRED TEXTS!!!" freakout isn't some type of comment on that type of predominantly male fan mindset that the filmmakers are trying to say, hey maybe it's time to look beyond that.

Also addendum, I'm not really on Twitter for Star Wars but I do get various threads pushed to me by that platform. And sure, 80% is a good mark. But I seem to recall that somebody being rather condescending in response to a thoughtful, brilliant, and all around lovely member of this forum discussing the amount of sheer vitriol and abuse she's been on the receiving end for simply wanting to discuss what she saw as the arc for these characters and narrative. As in dismissing it as mere shipping, which at this point is a dog whistle (along with fan fiction) for being not the "right" type of fan and especially not the "right" type of female fan. I get pretty irritated with the silliness which sometimes gets dragged over here from the worst of the Tumblr freak outs. But there's some serious snideness and "I'm above all of that" in those type of comments and atttitudes. Which again, get mixed up in some pretty low-key sexism for not being the "right" type of female fan.
@snufkin

Claps Claps Claps

I sort of got teary eyed reading this. Being a female fan in any male dominated community is extremely difficult. You are held to different standards and are often pegged as a fair weather fan who's a "poser" for a lack of a better word. I did a panel once specifically on female fans and the comic book character The Incredible Hulk. A small snipet of that was me talking about how I owned a Hulk shirt and whenever I would wear it out in public I would get constantly stopped on the street and asked about my shirt. It wasn't to say how cool my shirt was, but to ask me if I was really a fan of The Hulk, proceeded by questions, like have I read any of the comics, have I watched the TV show, etc. At which point the conversation always ended with a "I don't really know any girls who like The Hulk". Which surprise there are a lot of women who like The Hulk, hence all the ladies at the panel.

Going back to how women are treated and not just in nerd culture. Sports fandom is a big culprit. I'm often reminded of a passage from Gone Girl by Gillian Flynn:

Men always say that as the defining compliment, don’t they? She’s a cool girl. Being the Cool Girl means I am a hot, brilliant, funny woman who adores football, poker, dirty jokes, and burping, who plays video games, drinks cheap beer, loves threesomes and anal sex, and jams hot dogs and hamburgers into her mouth like she’s hosting the world’s biggest culinary gang bang while somehow maintaining a size 2, because Cool Girls are above all hot. Hot and understanding. Cool Girls never get angry; they only smile in a chagrined, loving manner and let their men do whatever they want. Go ahead, s*** on me, I don’t mind, I’m the Cool Girl.

Full quote HERE

The male dominated fandom doesn't really want you to have an opinion on Football, Star Wars, (insert fandom here). Oh and lord if you should have an opinion that differs from them, if you should want representation in said media that doesn't revolve around being fridged or being a sex object.
@Tex

Exactly this and you summed it up precisely why I refuse to give "the other side" any credence whatsoever.   I have yet to see anything constructive come from them when we got 90% right for TLJ and have a far better track record.  I have no interest in keeping an open mind about reylo never being addressed again in IX or seeing the one last Skywalker heir die unredeemed.  If that happens (and I doubt it will), Lucasfilm will never get another dollar from me, and that is my choice as a fan.  I don't need to "keep an open mind" for anyone.
@IoJovi

This.

When it comes to fiction, I just don't see how anyone is obliged to be fair. You don't have to patiently listen to everybody's opinions and theories in the name of fairness. You also don't have to enjoy every potential story direction equally and give every potential execution thereof a gold star just because they tried.

My motto when it comes to something like SW is that if I'm not interested in it, I won't go on watching it. And that goes 2x for fandom blather. I just don't understand how and why one is expected to spend one's spare time reading or listening to fandom theories that one disagrees with, as if this were a Fandom University and you got a course credit for each new Snoke theory.
@"Darth Dingbat
This is where I stand too (x500 after TLJ). I can respect that others enjoy listening to opposing theories, but it's not something I believe makes you a better fan or even a more open-minded person. I for one will never be open to a story about the last Skywalker dying unredeemed because that's not what TFA or TLJ said to me. I am not a SW fan first-and-foremost and if I genuinely dislike a narrative decision or direction... well, I have every right to drop that piece of media. I will never force myself to love a work of fiction. I mean, most fiction is intended to be entertainment, right?

And this is all just speaking generally. I know Bryan Young isn't an anti an while I may not agree with him that Kylo is going to die and end the Skywalker line, it's not a story I would be unable to accept, assuming of course that he becomes the big, epic hero at the end. In fact, I mainly disagree with this stance from a narrative perspective. Not only is trilogy a coming-of-age with Kylo and Rey as the major emphasis, Kylo isn't the main character. Rey is. I fully expect her ideologies (looking to the future rather than obsessing over the past) to win out in the end, and that would be really difficult with Kylo outshining her by sacrificing himself, leaving her... alone. Just meh.
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Re: Discussion: Podcasts

Post by snufkin on Tue 23 Jan - 14:11

Jane Campion says it better than I ever could (and if you've never seen An Angel at My Table, it's worth tracking down)


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Re: Discussion: Podcasts

Post by Moonlight13 on Tue 23 Jan - 14:23

I always keep in mind that we could be wrong about where this story is going (unlike some hardcore ReySkys who thought their opinion was law Rolling Eyes ) and I think that's enough for me Nope . I don't need to see other people's opinions that contradict our take on the movie because, like I said, I'm aware that it's possible that we're wrong, and it's a little bit masochistic for my taste (it makes me a little bit anxious Laughing ). I'm trying to remain positive. Smile
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Re: Discussion: Podcasts

Post by Kylo Rey on Tue 23 Jan - 15:01

@ZioRen wrote:Frankly, any view or prediction of the ST that doesn't involve looking at things through the lens of Rey and Kylo's relationship being the center and heart of the story is to be disregarded entirely in my eyes. That's not simply a difference of opinion or a personal bias, it's what the directors have been telling us over and over again. Refusing to acknowledge that and form predictions around it is why all of those other fans were incorrect about TLJ and will continue to be incorrect about IX.

Rey having a satisfying ending to her story, which is heavily intertwined with Kylo's and his fate, is more important than Kylo suffering some arbitrary punishment for his crimes, like death.
@ZioRen

Right. Just to put that into perspective, that would be like watching the OT and completely disregarding/failing to acknowledge Luke's relationship with Vader or watching the PT and doing the same with Anakin/Padme. No wonder these people keep failing with their predictions.
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