The Last Jedi: Our Reviews and Reactions

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Post by motherofpearl1 on Wed 13 Dec 2017, 12:07 pm

Okay, just what did Luke do to Ben that was so awful?
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Post by ZioRen on Wed 13 Dec 2017, 12:09 pm

@Ynqve wrote:
@ZioRen wrote:
@Darth Dingbat wrote:
@ZioRen wrote:I have a question:

About Kylo and Luke:
Is the tone of Luke toward Kylo as bad and bleak as all of the things I've seen make it sound? Because from the dialogue and a couple of clips, it really seems like Luke is just 'screw this guy' at the end, especially during the fight scene where he says very flatly that he has no interest in 'saving Ben's soul'. An attitude I find sort of disturbing and strange considering how the whole thing began in the first place. 

If even Luke Skywalker, despite everything, dislikes and is brushing Kylo off, how do we get the impression that Kylo is redeemable? Luke's characterization in this confuses me a lot--it's just not the Luke the OT showed us. The man who forgave and saw the good in his father despite not knowing him whatsoever and only seeing him do evil.
@ZioRen

Spoiler:

That's one of the many things that felt incredibly jarring to me. There was such a disconnect between the fact that Luke was supposedly responsible for finally pushing Ben to the Dark Side in the first place (though this was never properly explored at all), and the fact that he seemed very "screw this guy" towards the monster he had created (again, supposedly? like we know next to nothing about the backstory).

He does say something like "no one is ever truly gone" (can't remember the exact wording) when Leia says her son is gone, so I'm pretty sure that is again ***foreshadowing***.

Perhaps others more intelligent than me will get something else out of it. But I saw nothing positive or regretful in Luke's attitude towards Kylo in the end.
@Darth Dingbat

Spoiler:
The lack of regret sounds so damn weird and jarring considering what Luke did and doesn't deny he did. Something like that is an incredible betrayal, and even if Kylo knew that Luke immediately regretted it, it's understandable that he would hate and never trust his uncle again. The uncle who was supposed to guide and protect him. Yet here is Luke at the end acting like his hands are washed of this and not seeming remorseful in the slightest for considering killing the boy, his nephew, whose life and future was entrusted to him. In his sleep no less. Like....what? Especially if (I've seen other people say, at least) it's mentioned that Snoke has been in Ben's head and manipulating him up to that point.

And the fact that, based on the dialogue, he compares Kylo cutting him down to cutting down Han and says he'll live with the guilt sounds frankly laughable considering the backstory. Kylo seems to have every reason to want Luke dead, and it's not at all a comparable scenario to his feelings for his father.

Does Leia even know what happened as she decides her son is gone for good? Because if she does, I'm not sure what to think anymore.
@ZioRen

That's not what I saw at all.
Spoiler:
To me Luke is broken to the point of becoming suicidal because of what happened with Ben. He's stuck in his shame and guilt which is why he's so afraid to train Rey - he thinks that he's going to fail her as well. The fight between Luke and Kylo is all about Luke confronting his failure and overcoming his shame. Once that is over, Luke is finally at peace and ascends to become one with the Force.
@Ynqve

Spoiler:
But his way of doing that doesn't seem to show the remorse he should probably have over the situation. He comes face to face with Kylo, and his reaction is to do a taunting 'brush off his shoulder' and then say he's not there out of a desire to help Kylo at all? 

If there's more to this, please tell me because I'm seeing nothing but flatness and maybe even contempt toward Kylo in the dialogue and clips I've seen. And again, it bugs me that he compared himself to Han in that situation.

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Post by Ynqve on Wed 13 Dec 2017, 12:09 pm

@motherofpearl1 wrote:Okay, just what did Luke do to Ben that was so awful?
@motherofpearl1

Spoiler:
Luke had a moment where he panicked and for a second tried to kill Ben in his sleep to prevent Ben from becoming Vader 2.0 He regretted it instantly but Ben woke up with Luke standing over him with an ignited lightsaber.
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Post by Darth Dingbat on Wed 13 Dec 2017, 12:09 pm

@Ynqve wrote:
@ZioRen wrote:
@Darth Dingbat wrote:
@ZioRen wrote:I have a question:

About Kylo and Luke:
Is the tone of Luke toward Kylo as bad and bleak as all of the things I've seen make it sound? Because from the dialogue and a couple of clips, it really seems like Luke is just 'screw this guy' at the end, especially during the fight scene where he says very flatly that he has no interest in 'saving Ben's soul'. An attitude I find sort of disturbing and strange considering how the whole thing began in the first place. 

If even Luke Skywalker, despite everything, dislikes and is brushing Kylo off, how do we get the impression that Kylo is redeemable? Luke's characterization in this confuses me a lot--it's just not the Luke the OT showed us. The man who forgave and saw the good in his father despite not knowing him whatsoever and only seeing him do evil.
@ZioRen

Spoiler:

That's one of the many things that felt incredibly jarring to me. There was such a disconnect between the fact that Luke was supposedly responsible for finally pushing Ben to the Dark Side in the first place (though this was never properly explored at all), and the fact that he seemed very "screw this guy" towards the monster he had created (again, supposedly? like we know next to nothing about the backstory).

He does say something like "no one is ever truly gone" (can't remember the exact wording) when Leia says her son is gone, so I'm pretty sure that is again ***foreshadowing***.

Perhaps others more intelligent than me will get something else out of it. But I saw nothing positive or regretful in Luke's attitude towards Kylo in the end.
@Darth Dingbat

Spoiler:
The lack of regret sounds so damn weird and jarring considering what Luke did and doesn't deny he did. Something like that is an incredible betrayal, and even if Kylo knew that Luke immediately regretted it, it's understandable that he would hate and never trust his uncle again. The uncle who was supposed to guide and protect him. Yet here is Luke at the end acting like his hands are washed of this and not seeming remorseful in the slightest for considering killing the boy, his nephew, whose life and future was entrusted to him. In his sleep no less. Like....what? Especially if (I've seen other people say, at least) it's mentioned that Snoke has been in Ben's head and manipulating him up to that point.

And the fact that, based on the dialogue, he compares Kylo cutting him down to cutting down Han and says he'll live with the guilt sounds frankly laughable considering the backstory. Kylo seems to have every reason to want Luke dead, and it's not at all a comparable scenario to his feelings for his father.

Does Leia even know what happened as she decides her son is gone for good? Because if she does, I'm not sure what to think anymore.
@ZioRen

That's not what I saw at all.
Spoiler:
To me Luke is broken to the point of becoming suicidal because of what happened with Ben. He's stuck in his shame and guilt which is why he's so afraid to train Rey - he thinks that he's going to fail her as well. The fight between Luke and Kylo is all about Luke confronting his failure and overcoming his shame. Once that is over, Luke is finally at peace and ascends to become one with the Force.
@Ynqve

Spoiler:
That's not what I meant though. I agree Luke was broken over having failed Ben. What was jarring was the disconnect between this, and his attitude towards the present-day Kylo.

I suppose if you look very closely you could say that perhaps Luke was protecting Kylo by preventing him from killing his mother. But I think this kind of thing asks rather too much of ordinary filmgoers.
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Post by ZioRen on Wed 13 Dec 2017, 12:12 pm

@Darth Dingbat wrote:
@Ynqve wrote:
@ZioRen wrote:
@Darth Dingbat wrote:
@ZioRen wrote:I have a question:

About Kylo and Luke:
Is the tone of Luke toward Kylo as bad and bleak as all of the things I've seen make it sound? Because from the dialogue and a couple of clips, it really seems like Luke is just 'screw this guy' at the end, especially during the fight scene where he says very flatly that he has no interest in 'saving Ben's soul'. An attitude I find sort of disturbing and strange considering how the whole thing began in the first place. 

If even Luke Skywalker, despite everything, dislikes and is brushing Kylo off, how do we get the impression that Kylo is redeemable? Luke's characterization in this confuses me a lot--it's just not the Luke the OT showed us. The man who forgave and saw the good in his father despite not knowing him whatsoever and only seeing him do evil.
@ZioRen

Spoiler:

That's one of the many things that felt incredibly jarring to me. There was such a disconnect between the fact that Luke was supposedly responsible for finally pushing Ben to the Dark Side in the first place (though this was never properly explored at all), and the fact that he seemed very "screw this guy" towards the monster he had created (again, supposedly? like we know next to nothing about the backstory).

He does say something like "no one is ever truly gone" (can't remember the exact wording) when Leia says her son is gone, so I'm pretty sure that is again ***foreshadowing***.

Perhaps others more intelligent than me will get something else out of it. But I saw nothing positive or regretful in Luke's attitude towards Kylo in the end.
@Darth Dingbat

Spoiler:
The lack of regret sounds so damn weird and jarring considering what Luke did and doesn't deny he did. Something like that is an incredible betrayal, and even if Kylo knew that Luke immediately regretted it, it's understandable that he would hate and never trust his uncle again. The uncle who was supposed to guide and protect him. Yet here is Luke at the end acting like his hands are washed of this and not seeming remorseful in the slightest for considering killing the boy, his nephew, whose life and future was entrusted to him. In his sleep no less. Like....what? Especially if (I've seen other people say, at least) it's mentioned that Snoke has been in Ben's head and manipulating him up to that point.

And the fact that, based on the dialogue, he compares Kylo cutting him down to cutting down Han and says he'll live with the guilt sounds frankly laughable considering the backstory. Kylo seems to have every reason to want Luke dead, and it's not at all a comparable scenario to his feelings for his father.

Does Leia even know what happened as she decides her son is gone for good? Because if she does, I'm not sure what to think anymore.
@ZioRen

That's not what I saw at all.
Spoiler:
To me Luke is broken to the point of becoming suicidal because of what happened with Ben. He's stuck in his shame and guilt which is why he's so afraid to train Rey - he thinks that he's going to fail her as well. The fight between Luke and Kylo is all about Luke confronting his failure and overcoming his shame. Once that is over, Luke is finally at peace and ascends to become one with the Force.
@Ynqve

Spoiler:
That's not what I meant though. I agree Luke was broken over having failed Ben. What was jarring was the disconnect between this, and his attitude towards the present-day Kylo.

I suppose if you look very closely you could say that perhaps Luke was protecting Kylo by preventing him from killing his mother. But I think this kind of thing asks rather too much of ordinary filmgoers.
@Darth Dingbat

Spoiler:
This is what I meant. I know that Luke is guilty and depressed during most of the movie, but it seems his attitude completely changes when he's actually face to face with the result of his failure. Isn't this arguably the time when the most emotion should come out, when he's facing Kylo? It all just sounds so weird to me and doesn't jive with the story we were given.
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Post by Ynqve on Wed 13 Dec 2017, 12:14 pm

@ZioRen wrote:
@Ynqve wrote:
@ZioRen wrote:
@Darth Dingbat wrote:
@ZioRen wrote:I have a question:

About Kylo and Luke:
Is the tone of Luke toward Kylo as bad and bleak as all of the things I've seen make it sound? Because from the dialogue and a couple of clips, it really seems like Luke is just 'screw this guy' at the end, especially during the fight scene where he says very flatly that he has no interest in 'saving Ben's soul'. An attitude I find sort of disturbing and strange considering how the whole thing began in the first place. 

If even Luke Skywalker, despite everything, dislikes and is brushing Kylo off, how do we get the impression that Kylo is redeemable? Luke's characterization in this confuses me a lot--it's just not the Luke the OT showed us. The man who forgave and saw the good in his father despite not knowing him whatsoever and only seeing him do evil.
@ZioRen

Spoiler:

That's one of the many things that felt incredibly jarring to me. There was such a disconnect between the fact that Luke was supposedly responsible for finally pushing Ben to the Dark Side in the first place (though this was never properly explored at all), and the fact that he seemed very "screw this guy" towards the monster he had created (again, supposedly? like we know next to nothing about the backstory).

He does say something like "no one is ever truly gone" (can't remember the exact wording) when Leia says her son is gone, so I'm pretty sure that is again ***foreshadowing***.

Perhaps others more intelligent than me will get something else out of it. But I saw nothing positive or regretful in Luke's attitude towards Kylo in the end.
@Darth Dingbat

Spoiler:
The lack of regret sounds so damn weird and jarring considering what Luke did and doesn't deny he did. Something like that is an incredible betrayal, and even if Kylo knew that Luke immediately regretted it, it's understandable that he would hate and never trust his uncle again. The uncle who was supposed to guide and protect him. Yet here is Luke at the end acting like his hands are washed of this and not seeming remorseful in the slightest for considering killing the boy, his nephew, whose life and future was entrusted to him. In his sleep no less. Like....what? Especially if (I've seen other people say, at least) it's mentioned that Snoke has been in Ben's head and manipulating him up to that point.

And the fact that, based on the dialogue, he compares Kylo cutting him down to cutting down Han and says he'll live with the guilt sounds frankly laughable considering the backstory. Kylo seems to have every reason to want Luke dead, and it's not at all a comparable scenario to his feelings for his father.

Does Leia even know what happened as she decides her son is gone for good? Because if she does, I'm not sure what to think anymore.
@ZioRen

That's not what I saw at all.
Spoiler:
To me Luke is broken to the point of becoming suicidal because of what happened with Ben. He's stuck in his shame and guilt which is why he's so afraid to train Rey - he thinks that he's going to fail her as well. The fight between Luke and Kylo is all about Luke confronting his failure and overcoming his shame. Once that is over, Luke is finally at peace and ascends to become one with the Force.
@Ynqve

Spoiler:
But his way of doing that doesn't seem to show the remorse he should probably have over the situation. He comes face to face with Kylo, and his reaction is to do a taunting 'brush off his shoulder' and then say he's not there out of a desire to help Kylo at all? 

If there's more to this, please tell me because I'm seeing nothing but flatness and maybe even contempt toward Kylo in the dialogue and clips I've seen. And again, it bugs me that he compared himself to Han in that situation.

@ZioRen

Spoiler:
Imo he's accepted that Kylo won't be turned by him. The only person that could hope for success in redeeming him is Rey. And since Luke's last words to Kylo are "See you around kid" I doubt that's the last time Kylo and Luke meet. While he taunts Kylo by brushing his cape, it's played for laughs. Remember, his second goal with the confrontation is to stall Kylo so that the Resistance can get away.
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Post by ZioRen on Wed 13 Dec 2017, 12:16 pm

@Ynqve wrote:
@ZioRen wrote:
@Ynqve wrote:
@ZioRen wrote:
@Darth Dingbat wrote:
@ZioRen wrote:I have a question:

About Kylo and Luke:
Is the tone of Luke toward Kylo as bad and bleak as all of the things I've seen make it sound? Because from the dialogue and a couple of clips, it really seems like Luke is just 'screw this guy' at the end, especially during the fight scene where he says very flatly that he has no interest in 'saving Ben's soul'. An attitude I find sort of disturbing and strange considering how the whole thing began in the first place. 

If even Luke Skywalker, despite everything, dislikes and is brushing Kylo off, how do we get the impression that Kylo is redeemable? Luke's characterization in this confuses me a lot--it's just not the Luke the OT showed us. The man who forgave and saw the good in his father despite not knowing him whatsoever and only seeing him do evil.
@ZioRen

Spoiler:

That's one of the many things that felt incredibly jarring to me. There was such a disconnect between the fact that Luke was supposedly responsible for finally pushing Ben to the Dark Side in the first place (though this was never properly explored at all), and the fact that he seemed very "screw this guy" towards the monster he had created (again, supposedly? like we know next to nothing about the backstory).

He does say something like "no one is ever truly gone" (can't remember the exact wording) when Leia says her son is gone, so I'm pretty sure that is again ***foreshadowing***.

Perhaps others more intelligent than me will get something else out of it. But I saw nothing positive or regretful in Luke's attitude towards Kylo in the end.
@Darth Dingbat

Spoiler:
The lack of regret sounds so damn weird and jarring considering what Luke did and doesn't deny he did. Something like that is an incredible betrayal, and even if Kylo knew that Luke immediately regretted it, it's understandable that he would hate and never trust his uncle again. The uncle who was supposed to guide and protect him. Yet here is Luke at the end acting like his hands are washed of this and not seeming remorseful in the slightest for considering killing the boy, his nephew, whose life and future was entrusted to him. In his sleep no less. Like....what? Especially if (I've seen other people say, at least) it's mentioned that Snoke has been in Ben's head and manipulating him up to that point.

And the fact that, based on the dialogue, he compares Kylo cutting him down to cutting down Han and says he'll live with the guilt sounds frankly laughable considering the backstory. Kylo seems to have every reason to want Luke dead, and it's not at all a comparable scenario to his feelings for his father.

Does Leia even know what happened as she decides her son is gone for good? Because if she does, I'm not sure what to think anymore.
@ZioRen

That's not what I saw at all.
Spoiler:
To me Luke is broken to the point of becoming suicidal because of what happened with Ben. He's stuck in his shame and guilt which is why he's so afraid to train Rey - he thinks that he's going to fail her as well. The fight between Luke and Kylo is all about Luke confronting his failure and overcoming his shame. Once that is over, Luke is finally at peace and ascends to become one with the Force.
@Ynqve

Spoiler:
But his way of doing that doesn't seem to show the remorse he should probably have over the situation. He comes face to face with Kylo, and his reaction is to do a taunting 'brush off his shoulder' and then say he's not there out of a desire to help Kylo at all? 

If there's more to this, please tell me because I'm seeing nothing but flatness and maybe even contempt toward Kylo in the dialogue and clips I've seen. And again, it bugs me that he compared himself to Han in that situation.

@ZioRen

Spoiler:
Imo he's accepted that Kylo won't be turned by him. The only person that could hope for success in redeeming him is Rey. And since Luke's last words to Kylo are "See you around kid" I doubt that's the last time Kylo and Luke meet. While he taunts Kylo by brushing his cape, it's played for laughs. Remember, his second goal with the confrontation is to stall Kylo so that the Resistance can get away.
@Ynqve

Spoiler:
I hope this is the impression I get when I see it because I don't want to think badly of Luke! Thanks for the answers.
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Post by motherofpearl1 on Wed 13 Dec 2017, 12:19 pm

Poor Kylo. No wonder he clings to his grandad.
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Post by Ynqve on Wed 13 Dec 2017, 12:25 pm

@Darth Dingbat wrote:
@Ynqve wrote:
@ZioRen wrote:
@Darth Dingbat wrote:
@ZioRen wrote:I have a question:

About Kylo and Luke:
Is the tone of Luke toward Kylo as bad and bleak as all of the things I've seen make it sound? Because from the dialogue and a couple of clips, it really seems like Luke is just 'screw this guy' at the end, especially during the fight scene where he says very flatly that he has no interest in 'saving Ben's soul'. An attitude I find sort of disturbing and strange considering how the whole thing began in the first place. 

If even Luke Skywalker, despite everything, dislikes and is brushing Kylo off, how do we get the impression that Kylo is redeemable? Luke's characterization in this confuses me a lot--it's just not the Luke the OT showed us. The man who forgave and saw the good in his father despite not knowing him whatsoever and only seeing him do evil.
@ZioRen

Spoiler:

That's one of the many things that felt incredibly jarring to me. There was such a disconnect between the fact that Luke was supposedly responsible for finally pushing Ben to the Dark Side in the first place (though this was never properly explored at all), and the fact that he seemed very "screw this guy" towards the monster he had created (again, supposedly? like we know next to nothing about the backstory).

He does say something like "no one is ever truly gone" (can't remember the exact wording) when Leia says her son is gone, so I'm pretty sure that is again ***foreshadowing***.

Perhaps others more intelligent than me will get something else out of it. But I saw nothing positive or regretful in Luke's attitude towards Kylo in the end.
@Darth Dingbat

Spoiler:
The lack of regret sounds so damn weird and jarring considering what Luke did and doesn't deny he did. Something like that is an incredible betrayal, and even if Kylo knew that Luke immediately regretted it, it's understandable that he would hate and never trust his uncle again. The uncle who was supposed to guide and protect him. Yet here is Luke at the end acting like his hands are washed of this and not seeming remorseful in the slightest for considering killing the boy, his nephew, whose life and future was entrusted to him. In his sleep no less. Like....what? Especially if (I've seen other people say, at least) it's mentioned that Snoke has been in Ben's head and manipulating him up to that point.

And the fact that, based on the dialogue, he compares Kylo cutting him down to cutting down Han and says he'll live with the guilt sounds frankly laughable considering the backstory. Kylo seems to have every reason to want Luke dead, and it's not at all a comparable scenario to his feelings for his father.

Does Leia even know what happened as she decides her son is gone for good? Because if she does, I'm not sure what to think anymore.
@ZioRen

That's not what I saw at all.
Spoiler:
To me Luke is broken to the point of becoming suicidal because of what happened with Ben. He's stuck in his shame and guilt which is why he's so afraid to train Rey - he thinks that he's going to fail her as well. The fight between Luke and Kylo is all about Luke confronting his failure and overcoming his shame. Once that is over, Luke is finally at peace and ascends to become one with the Force.
@Ynqve

Spoiler:
That's not what I meant though. I agree Luke was broken over having failed Ben. What was jarring was the disconnect between this, and his attitude towards the present-day Kylo.

I suppose if you look very closely you could say that perhaps Luke was protecting Kylo by preventing him from killing his mother. But I think this kind of thing asks rather too much of ordinary filmgoers.
@Darth Dingbat

Spoiler:
As I said, to me the fight is all about Luke confronting his own demons. Imo he knows that Kylo hates his guts and will never listen to him, he's leaving the task of redeeming Ben Solo to Rey. And you're right, he is protecting Ben from killing Leia. It's his secondary objective. But I understand why you're upset with the scene, it's probably going to be controversial once the initial "OMG LUKE IS DOING COOL ACTION STUFF" phase is over.
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Post by Rei of Sunshine on Wed 13 Dec 2017, 12:40 pm

Alright, I'll give a tentative review as best as I can. Won't put it in spoiler tags because I'm a little lazy, but you guys know what to expect going in here.

SPOILERS ahead.

So I must disclaim that I need to watch movies atleast twice to fully absorb the entire thing and to understand meaning and context.

And while I did enjoy the film, I agree with Dingbat and Reylo1992 that it was not really up to par regarding the themes, deeper meanings, mythology and such compared to TFA. Yet TLJ however offers a new template in the tired Star Wars story outline. It defied the expectations that it would be similar to ESB. Sure there were visual callbacks, but regarding pacing and motivations, it was totally different.

Honestly, I don't really know where to start, but here goes.

As much as I like Poe and I understand the purpose of a Resistance Plot, I honestly could've done without it. And even more honestly? Holdo wasn't necessary at all. It could've been just Leia making the decisions that Poe dislikes. It could've been just the 2 of them fighting over who gets to steer the wheel. Old vs Young leaders and all that. It would've been more poignant to see a student-teacher relationship between them, that Leia needs to trust her Resistance to newer Leaders and that Poe needs to listen and heed Leia's wisdom. And also, instead of Holdo doing that epic hyperjump towards the Supremacy, it could've been Poe sacrificing his life.

The unecessary infighting of the Resistance ate up much of the screentime that could've been given to more Ben Solo flashbacks.

Rose is like a pixie tree hugger girlfriend with all the perfectly timed one liner and sob stories. Honestly not sure if she was intentionally made after typical romantic highschool girls who fangirl about the jocks, or Rian tried too hard.

I think Rian may have tried too hard to humanize EVERYONE including Hux, that Rey, Kylo and Finn suffered somewhat.

REYLO and Luke Cockblocker

The Forcebond scenes where beautifully made! They were my favorite parts of the the movie. I liked the 1st encounter where Rey just woke up and immediately sensed Kylo who was sitting in the medbay getting his neck patched up. . She then grabs her blaster and shoots at him, to which he tries to avoid. It's so faithful to their last encounter on Starkiller. The 2nd encounter I think was while Rey was appreciating the rain. It showed how their connection was so strong that it is almost corporeal and their surroundings manifest around each other. When she shot Kylo, there was a hint of blaster smoke, and when she closed the connection during the rain, he was suprised to find his face and hair wet. I think that Rey and Kylo, while admittedly lacking in motivations and background drama, was the strong point of TLJ and it should be!

I also believe that what critics were saying that is new regarding to the Force created by Rian, is the Forcebond manifestations, and Luke's porjection.

I honestly felt sad for Rey regarding her parentage. Sad both good and bad.
Bad sad because I somehow expected it could affect her and turn her to the Dark Side.
Good sad because what Kylo said about her not having any part in this story, and her parents being insignificant tells you so much about who or what Rey wants to be! She wants to belong, to be something in this galaxy. And like any other kid, she probably wants to be a hero too. She wants to have a purpose. And maybe just maybe, she thought she could've fulfilled that purpose if she got Ben back into the Light. I think our Rey might have a hero complex.

Now that Rey is technically the Last Jedi, but also the First of a new kind, I think she might find purpose there, but then Ben would symbolize something she failed at and I believe Rey is persistent that she might still try to turn him in the future.

Luke and Ben

I find Ben's background totally lacking, but I am hoping that maybe, just maybe, this is because Rian wants the audience to assume that Ben still is misguided and deserves no understanding despite his past trauma. That while we see the chemistry and potential of Reylo, it would seem inprobable because Kylo is still a shallow power hungry jerk. And that Ep9 will fully give us the much needed humanization of Kylo Ren and having everyone root for his possible redemption.

Luke's dilemma reminded me largely of Anakin's mistake. They both saw horrible visions. Ani saw Padme's death, and Luke saw Kylo Ren. They both tried to prevent it, but ended up causing it instead. I also liked the fact that Luke did HESITATE, but Ben woke up and saw him standing over him with his saber and the biggest misunderstanding in the galaxy happened. Luke said that Ben already had Dark thoughts and that Snoke had already turned him and he was scared to let it go on. Ben could already be vulnerable back then, and the last straw was the idea that your uncle also gave up on you. He also mentions Ben takes some of the jedi students with him..So yes, I fully expect KOR in Ep 9!

I think both Luke and Ben held back on what they showed Rey. And Rey quickly empathized with Kylo because she was already pissed at Luke, and the fact that Luke created Kylo Ren, also means he is indirectly responsible for Han's death. I think, although it needed more work, that Rey reacted the most human and realistic way. She needed to blame someone for her confusion and loss. Add to that is she just made a new friend and she really likes this friend so she immediately takes his side.

I didn't feel as though Kylo manipulated Rey. He was definitely trying to seduce her, but Rey is also stubborn and she wasn't letting Kylo sway her.

I think this could've all been much better if only they skipped Canto Bight and DJ. Although I can see the message in that plot point. Not all missions go according to plan. Not all heroes succeed depsite their best intentions. And also, I could've done with less Poe.

Superman Leia was my fave BTW. It was such an awesome moment the entire cinema clapped!
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Post by Cowgirlsamurai on Wed 13 Dec 2017, 12:49 pm

Reylo Question:
Can someone tell me how they get to the hand touching scene? Daisy said that Rey is affected by Han's death, so how does she get to the point to reach out to Kylo physically so soon?
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Post by Rei of Sunshine on Wed 13 Dec 2017, 12:50 pm

@Ynqve wrote:
@Darth Dingbat wrote:
@Ynqve wrote:
@ZioRen wrote:
@Darth Dingbat wrote:
@ZioRen wrote:I have a question:

About Kylo and Luke:
Is the tone of Luke toward Kylo as bad and bleak as all of the things I've seen make it sound? Because from the dialogue and a couple of clips, it really seems like Luke is just 'screw this guy' at the end, especially during the fight scene where he says very flatly that he has no interest in 'saving Ben's soul'. An attitude I find sort of disturbing and strange considering how the whole thing began in the first place. 

If even Luke Skywalker, despite everything, dislikes and is brushing Kylo off, how do we get the impression that Kylo is redeemable? Luke's characterization in this confuses me a lot--it's just not the Luke the OT showed us. The man who forgave and saw the good in his father despite not knowing him whatsoever and only seeing him do evil.
@ZioRen

Spoiler:

That's one of the many things that felt incredibly jarring to me. There was such a disconnect between the fact that Luke was supposedly responsible for finally pushing Ben to the Dark Side in the first place (though this was never properly explored at all), and the fact that he seemed very "screw this guy" towards the monster he had created (again, supposedly? like we know next to nothing about the backstory).

He does say something like "no one is ever truly gone" (can't remember the exact wording) when Leia says her son is gone, so I'm pretty sure that is again ***foreshadowing***.

Perhaps others more intelligent than me will get something else out of it. But I saw nothing positive or regretful in Luke's attitude towards Kylo in the end.
@Darth Dingbat

Spoiler:
The lack of regret sounds so damn weird and jarring considering what Luke did and doesn't deny he did. Something like that is an incredible betrayal, and even if Kylo knew that Luke immediately regretted it, it's understandable that he would hate and never trust his uncle again. The uncle who was supposed to guide and protect him. Yet here is Luke at the end acting like his hands are washed of this and not seeming remorseful in the slightest for considering killing the boy, his nephew, whose life and future was entrusted to him. In his sleep no less. Like....what? Especially if (I've seen other people say, at least) it's mentioned that Snoke has been in Ben's head and manipulating him up to that point.

And the fact that, based on the dialogue, he compares Kylo cutting him down to cutting down Han and says he'll live with the guilt sounds frankly laughable considering the backstory. Kylo seems to have every reason to want Luke dead, and it's not at all a comparable scenario to his feelings for his father.

Does Leia even know what happened as she decides her son is gone for good? Because if she does, I'm not sure what to think anymore.
@ZioRen

That's not what I saw at all.
Spoiler:
To me Luke is broken to the point of becoming suicidal because of what happened with Ben. He's stuck in his shame and guilt which is why he's so afraid to train Rey - he thinks that he's going to fail her as well. The fight between Luke and Kylo is all about Luke confronting his failure and overcoming his shame. Once that is over, Luke is finally at peace and ascends to become one with the Force.
@Ynqve

Spoiler:
That's not what I meant though. I agree Luke was broken over having failed Ben. What was jarring was the disconnect between this, and his attitude towards the present-day Kylo.

I suppose if you look very closely you could say that perhaps Luke was protecting Kylo by preventing him from killing his mother. But I think this kind of thing asks rather too much of ordinary filmgoers.
@Darth Dingbat

Spoiler:
As I said, to me the fight is all about Luke confronting his own demons. Imo he knows that Kylo hates his guts and will never listen to him, he's leaving the task of redeeming Ben Solo to Rey. And you're right, he is protecting Ben from killing Leia. It's his secondary objective. But I understand why you're upset with the scene, it's probably going to be controversial once the initial "OMG LUKE IS DOING COOL ACTION STUFF" phase is over.
@Ynqve

I agree that this was Luke's penultimate sacrifice. He needed to confront Ben and he needed to say sorry to Leia. His projection was not meant to be a stand off, but a message to Ben. He wanted to say his piece even though his nephew won't listen. And he has also accepted that it is now up to Rey. He reminded Ben about Han because he wants Ben to still remember where he came from. But I wish they could've played him off as more remorseful rather than smug.
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Post by Rei of Sunshine on Wed 13 Dec 2017, 12:54 pm

@Cowgirlsamurai wrote:
Reylo Question:
Can someone tell me how they get to the hand touching scene? Daisy said that Rey is affected by Han's death, so how does she get to the point to reach out to Kylo physically so soon?
@Cowgirlsamurai

Rey just had her Cave Test where there was this some sort of Mirror of Erised thing where she wished to see her parents. Yet the mirror only showed her. Symbolizing she is truly alone. She is then inside the hut talking to Kylo, crying that she really feels alone at that moment and he offers his comfort. They have this UST staredown and she slowly extends her hand to which he takes.

They exchanged words in her 2nd and 3rd forcebond vision, the hut was the 4th I think. And he said something about Han. I can't remember. I have to watch again!
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Post by Ynqve on Wed 13 Dec 2017, 1:00 pm

@Rei of Sunshine
Glad you liked Superman Leia. I didn't hate it, I love that she finally used the Force but I just can't take the moment as seriously as I would have wanted.
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Post by Cowgirlsamurai on Wed 13 Dec 2017, 1:02 pm

@Rei of Sunshine

Thank you! Makes more sense now. Some have said that their connection seems rushed in this movie. I can't wait to see it tomorrow to get a feel for the pacing.
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Post by Darth Dingbat on Wed 13 Dec 2017, 1:08 pm

I have to say,

Spoiler:

that TLJ had a lot of things that would have made me love, love, love the film, if it all had come together differently. I am still completely baffled what happened and how it all fell apart (from my perspective). It wasn't like I was enthusiastic until Renperor happened and then threw my popcorn at the screen with a "**** YOU, KYLO!!!" (Though, naturally, I very nearly did.) The film started feeling "off" to me early on, with the Luke and Rey scenes, and my unease grew as it went on. I can't explain it.

I feel a bit like I'm letting our side down. You have no idea how much I wish I'd loved this film. Right now my disappointment is almost palpable. It's like two years of investment up in smoke.

I wish I could make you guys understand that this isn't about specific headcanons at all. This is completely different. I'm going to watch IX even though earlier today I thought I wouldn't and I hope I manage to reclaim some of my love for this story through JJ's approach.
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Post by Ynqve on Wed 13 Dec 2017, 1:16 pm

@Darth Dingbat wrote:I have to say,

Spoiler:

that TLJ had a lot of things that would have made me love, love, love the film, if it all had come together differently. I am still completely baffled what happened and how it all fell apart (from my perspective). It wasn't like I was enthusiastic until Renperor happened and then threw my popcorn at the screen with a "**** YOU, KYLO!!!" (Though, naturally, I very nearly did.) The film started feeling "off" to me early on, with the Luke and Rey scenes, and my unease grew as it went on. I can't explain it.

I feel a bit like I'm letting our side down. You have no idea how much I wish I'd loved this film. Right now my disappointment is almost palpable. It's like two years of investment up in smoke.

I wish I could make you guys understand that this isn't about specific headcanons at all. This is completely different. I'm going to watch IX even though earlier today I thought I wouldn't and I hope I manage to reclaim some of my love for this story through JJ's approach.
@Darth Dingbat

You're not letting anyone down. I've had similar reactions to other things and it's heartbreaking. I just hope that you'll be able to find something in TLJ further down the line that you can like - even if it's something as simple as "that shot where that happened was beautiful". But if not, that's ok too.


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Post by Rei of Sunshine on Wed 13 Dec 2017, 1:16 pm

@Darth Dingbat wrote:I have to say,

Spoiler:

that TLJ had a lot of things that would have made me love, love, love the film, if it all had come together differently. I am still completely baffled what happened and how it all fell apart (from my perspective). It wasn't like I was enthusiastic until Renperor happened and then threw my popcorn at the screen with a "**** YOU, KYLO!!!" (Though, naturally, I very nearly did.) The film started feeling "off" to me early on, with the Luke and Rey scenes, and my unease grew as it went on. I can't explain it.

I feel a bit like I'm letting our side down. You have no idea how much I wish I'd loved this film. Right now my disappointment is almost palpable. It's like two years of investment up in smoke.

I wish I could make you guys understand that this isn't about specific headcanons at all. This is completely different. I'm going to watch IX even though earlier today I thought I wouldn't and I hope I manage to reclaim some of my love for this story through JJ's approach.
@Darth Dingbat

Don't worry bout it Ding. I understand what you mean. I honestly was speechless after the movie. I knew I enjoyed it, but I wasn't sure if I liked all of it.

I'm trying to bargain this one out, that maybe we had so many expectations in the ways if nuance, symbolism and subtlety in regards to Reylo and Ben's background that we were put off because instead of subtle, the film was overtly Reylo.

Or maybe I just have difficulty adjusting to Rian's style. Because while Brother's Bloom was fun, there were some parts that I had difficulty of grasping unless I rewinded and played the scene again.

But the best part was that the audience around me was truly entertained and reactes positively to all Reylo scenes! The cinema applauded when they fought back to back and awwwwed and groaned when they fought again. But during their last Forcebond session, the audience was audibly humming and ooohing. They understand it's not over yet.
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Post by Darth Dingbat on Wed 13 Dec 2017, 1:48 pm

Thank you, @Ynqve and @Rei of Sunshine.

It just occurred to me that my problems with this film are mostly a matter of tone. It's not about being crushed that this or that headcanon didn't happen, though no doubt most of you will think it is (and I don't blame you). I just quickly started feeling uneasy about the tone, and what I felt was a certain tone-deafness to go with it.

Perhaps to explain it: sorry for sounding like an old school fan - which I am, no regrets - but I love Star Wars for being Star Wars, not for trying to be something else.
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Post by Rei of Sunshine on Wed 13 Dec 2017, 2:03 pm

@Darth Dingbat @Ynqve

To quote Kylo Ren: "You are not alone"

I just read the reviews on metacritic and I am still confused as to how these people could score the movie with scores ranging 90-100.

I'm not saying they're wrong, but they definitely thought it was good in most parts to give it such a high rating. Meanwhile here we are, simple people on the internet, are bothered by what we did not see on screen.

Again this makes me think that maybe it is our deeper investment into the fandom and the nuances and subtlety of Reylo that made us see the movie differently.

I think that we need to give it more chances and see it again, and this time keep an over mind. A clean slate without too much expectations, and maybe we will appreciate it more.

I also think that maybe Rian is so much more invested in creating human characters that he did not dwell too much on the Force plot. That the Force has already been over used and over discussed in the past 40 years that this time, we should dissect the intricacies of character choices in Star Wars, and just let the Force be.

As for Kylo and Rey, there is still so much left up in the air. So much, enough to fill an entire episode.
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Post by FrolickingFizzgig on Wed 13 Dec 2017, 2:11 pm

@Rei of Sunshine wrote:@Darth Dingbat @Ynqve

I just read the reviews on metacritic and I am still confused as to how these people could score the movie with scores ranging 90-100.

I'm not saying they're wrong, but they definitely thought it was good in most parts to give it such a high rating. Meanwhile here we are, simple people on the internet, are bothered by what we did not see on screen.

Again this makes me think that maybe it is our deeper investment into the fandom and the nuances and subtlety of Reylo that made us see the movie differently.

I think that we need to give it more chances and see it again, and this time keep an over mind. A clean slate without too much expectations, and maybe we will appreciate it more.

I also think that maybe Rian is so much more invested in creating human characters that he did not dwell too much on the Force plot. That the Force has already been over used and over discussed in the past 40 years that this time, we should dissect the intricacies of character choices in Star Wars, and just let the Force be.

As for Kylo and Rey, there is still so much left up in the air. So much, enough to fill an entire episode.
@Rei of Sunshine
IMO, this was inevitable. Imagine walking into the theatre expecting Finn and ReySky team-up vs. Kylo and getting TLJ instead. These critics and fans had zero expectations regarding backstories or relationships. They experienced the film pretty blind, and I'm sure that makes a big difference. The "surprises" are just that for them, while we have spent two years deliberating the future of the narrative and built up all these expectations and headcanons around every minute detail.

The thing to remember is we as a community predicted the overall direction, but that overall direction involves two films, not one. There's another chapter to go, and the resolution is the most important part in a way.

I've LOVED everything I've seen from this film. The tragic, sensual touch with the hopeful Force Theme in the background as they find a small moment of balance.



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Post by Darth Dingbat on Wed 13 Dec 2017, 2:13 pm

@Darth Dingbat wrote:Thank you, @Ynqve and @Rei of Sunshine.

It just occurred to me that my problems with this film are mostly a matter of tone. It's not about being crushed that this or that headcanon didn't happen, though no doubt most of you will think it is (and I don't blame you). I just quickly started feeling uneasy about the tone, and what I felt was a certain tone-deafness to go with it.

Perhaps to explain it: sorry for sounding like an old school fan - which I am, no regrets - but I love Star Wars for being Star Wars, not for trying to be something else.
@Darth Dingbat

Though I will add that some of the expectations I had were things I used to consider crucial to the plot.

I expected at least some exploration or hints, if not outright answers, of the following:

- What was the awakening?
- Why were Rey and Kylo connected? (Well, apparently the Force bond was Snoke's doing, which kind of overrides the fact that they seemed to be connected even before they met... and what was the connection in the interrogation scene about, then? To say nothing of Rey's Forceback. I suppose the Forceback came simply from the lightsaber because it looked to me that young Kylo really did have Anakin's lightsaber. I hope someone can confirm this.)
- Ancient Jedi lore... there was literally nothing. We didn't learn anything about the balance. Perhaps we will in IX, but somehow I thought going to the First Jedi Temple would have been a great opportunity to delve into the history of the Jedi and the Force.
- Raw powah likewise amounted to nothing at all. I thought Kylo and Rey were something new, something special, but besides the mention of raw power the film never made it seem so. Snoke told us that Rey is Kylo's light counterpart, and that's it. In fact the throne room scene made me feel uncomfortably like Rey's only significance was that she was Kylo's weakness.
- Rey being light and Kylo being dark also upended my expectations because one of the biggest attractions of Reylo was that they both seemed to be focal points of light and dark, fundamentally similar, and ultimately reaching balance together. Well, that was a headcanon, plain and simple.
- Her getting skills out of Kylo's head (as per Pablo) was likewise never alluded to in any way. A Force bond moment or the Praetorian moment would have been a great opportunity to flesh this out. But nope, never happened.

I honestly thought there was some destiny they shared, this raw power they shared, this connection they shared. Perhaps it all will be explored in IX, but TLJ seemed to undermine every single thing except Rey and Kylo's attraction to each other. I felt like, ah, so it wasn't some mystical thing after all. Just sexual attraction and mutual loneliness. Which makes it a fairly ordinary romance, really.

ETA: Why had Rey dreamt of Ahch-To? No idea. Never answered.

You get the point, I'm sure, without further examples. I know this sort of thing won't bother everyone. I suppose it just reminded me that TFA was pretty much just a giant mystery box with a lot filler that will never get picked up again, and PlotGate probably is no lie after all.
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Post by Rei of Sunshine on Wed 13 Dec 2017, 2:31 pm

@Darth Dingbat wrote:
@Darth Dingbat wrote:Thank you, @Ynqve and @Rei of Sunshine.

It just occurred to me that my problems with this film are mostly a matter of tone. It's not about being crushed that this or that headcanon didn't happen, though no doubt most of you will think it is (and I don't blame you). I just quickly started feeling uneasy about the tone, and what I felt was a certain tone-deafness to go with it.

Perhaps to explain it: sorry for sounding like an old school fan - which I am, no regrets - but I love Star Wars for being Star Wars, not for trying to be something else.
@Darth Dingbat

Though I will add that some of the expectations I had were things I used to consider crucial to the plot.

I expected at least some exploration or hints, if not outright answers, of the following:

- What was the awakening?
- Why were Rey and Kylo connected? (Well, apparently the Force bond was Snoke's doing, which kind of overrides the fact that they seemed to be connected even before they met... and what was the connection in the interrogation scene about, then? To say nothing of Rey's Forceback. I suppose the Forceback came simply from the lightsaber because it looked to me that young Kylo really did have Anakin's lightsaber. I hope someone can confirm this.)
- Ancient Jedi lore... there was literally nothing. We didn't learn anything about the balance. Perhaps we will in IX, but somehow I thought going to the First Jedi Temple would have been a great opportunity to delve into the history of the Jedi and the Force.
- Raw powah likewise amounted to nothing at all. I thought Kylo and Rey were something new, something special, but besides the mention of raw power the film never made it seem so. Snoke told us that Rey is Kylo's light counterpart, and that's it. In fact the throne room scene made me feel uncomfortably like Rey's only significance was that she was Kylo's weakness.
- Rey being light and Kylo being dark also upended my expectations because one of the biggest attractions of Reylo was that they both seemed to be focal points of light and dark, fundamentally similar, and ultimately reaching balance together. Well, that was a headcanon, plain and simple.
- Her getting skills out of Kylo's head (as per Pablo) was likewise never alluded to in any way. A Force bond moment or the Praetorian moment would have been a great opportunity to flesh this out. But nope, never happened.

I honestly thought there was some destiny they shared, this raw power they shared, this connection they shared. Perhaps it all will be explored in IX, but TLJ seemed to undermine every single thing except Rey and Kylo's attraction to each other. I felt like, ah, so it wasn't some mystical thing after all. Just sexual attraction and mutual loneliness. Which makes it a fairly ordinary romance, really.
@Darth Dingbat

*pats you on the back*

Although I'm not such in a black mood as you are right now, I definitely know where you are coming from.

And even if I try to make reasons for each of those bullet points you have, some will still feel a bit shallow to me.

While it is important to have continuity, I think it wasn't RJ's responsibility to explain anything that JJ made in TFA.
But I think that Awakening- was the beginning of Kylo and Rey's path towards each other and that started with Finn.
Their connection I believe was still created during the interrogation scene, but was only discovered and utilized by Snoke. Kylo didn't know it, but Snoke saw it and grabbed the opportunity to use it.
Im not sure about the saber either, but it possibly might be Luke's old one.
-I think that the Jedi Lore might be too much content for the GA to grasp (fell asleep during these parts in the PT) but the idea of a Balance was strongly suggested and repeated a lot in TLJ. That's simple enough for the GA. There will be a balance.
Raw power was seen, but not explained. Still a head scratched. It seems like Rey is just really powerful as well, because maybe the Force needed Kylo to have an equal.
As to Snoke, I believe that he himself has misunderstood the balance. Maybe he thought that Kylo's light was because Luke is still around and he wants Kylo to kill Luke to become truly dark. Turns out it was Rey so now he wants Kylo to kill her. I think their balance will surely be explored in IX. But right now, the GA just need to see how equal and significant they are together as Yin and Yang. And it also showed how Rey wasn't really a weakness, but Snoke thought she was.

And as for their shared destiny, I think they haven't grasped that yet, because they both have a selfish desire to have the other in their own side. To fully acknowledge the balance that they can create is when they will create their own destiny.

because I think destiny has been a recurring theme in SW but not in a good way. Padme was destined to die, Ani was destined to be Vader, Ben was to be Kylo. All of this happened because someone tried to defy destiny. It looks like Reylo will explore a different style in IX
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Post by Ynqve on Wed 13 Dec 2017, 3:08 pm

@Darth Dingbat wrote:
@Darth Dingbat wrote:Thank you, @Ynqve and @Rei of Sunshine.

It just occurred to me that my problems with this film are mostly a matter of tone. It's not about being crushed that this or that headcanon didn't happen, though no doubt most of you will think it is (and I don't blame you). I just quickly started feeling uneasy about the tone, and what I felt was a certain tone-deafness to go with it.

Perhaps to explain it: sorry for sounding like an old school fan - which I am, no regrets - but I love Star Wars for being Star Wars, not for trying to be something else.
@Darth Dingbat

Though I will add that some of the expectations I had were things I used to consider crucial to the plot.

I expected at least some exploration or hints, if not outright answers, of the following:

- What was the awakening?
- Why were Rey and Kylo connected? (Well, apparently the Force bond was Snoke's doing, which kind of overrides the fact that they seemed to be connected even before they met... and what was the connection in the interrogation scene about, then? To say nothing of Rey's Forceback. I suppose the Forceback came simply from the lightsaber because it looked to me that young Kylo really did have Anakin's lightsaber. I hope someone can confirm this.)
- Ancient Jedi lore... there was literally nothing. We didn't learn anything about the balance. Perhaps we will in IX, but somehow I thought going to the First Jedi Temple would have been a great opportunity to delve into the history of the Jedi and the Force.
- Raw powah likewise amounted to nothing at all. I thought Kylo and Rey were something new, something special, but besides the mention of raw power the film never made it seem so. Snoke told us that Rey is Kylo's light counterpart, and that's it. In fact the throne room scene made me feel uncomfortably like Rey's only significance was that she was Kylo's weakness.
- Rey being light and Kylo being dark also upended my expectations because one of the biggest attractions of Reylo was that they both seemed to be focal points of light and dark, fundamentally similar, and ultimately reaching balance together. Well, that was a headcanon, plain and simple.
- Her getting skills out of Kylo's head (as per Pablo) was likewise never alluded to in any way. A Force bond moment or the Praetorian moment would have been a great opportunity to flesh this out. But nope, never happened.

I honestly thought there was some destiny they shared, this raw power they shared, this connection they shared. Perhaps it all will be explored in IX, but TLJ seemed to undermine every single thing except Rey and Kylo's attraction to each other. I felt like, ah, so it wasn't some mystical thing after all. Just sexual attraction and mutual loneliness. Which makes it a fairly ordinary romance, really.

ETA: Why had Rey dreamt of Ahch-To? No idea. Never answered.

You get the point, I'm sure, without further examples. I know this sort of thing won't bother everyone. I suppose it just reminded me that TFA was pretty much just a giant mystery box with a lot filler that will never get picked up again, and PlotGate probably is no lie after all.
@Darth Dingbat

Aw, I get all of that. I agree that TLJ has a different tone from the earlier episodes and while it worked for me it's not going to be everyone's cup of tea. I also agree that there are a lot of unanswered questions, one of my disappointments of the film was that it didn't explain or address any of the things you listed. But at the same time, maybe it'll be explained in IX? On the other hand, IX is going to have to be something like 4 hours long in order to fit all of the things that it has to do.

I think this was inevitable when they chose JJ to head the new trilogy. I love JJ, I've enjoyed a lot of his work but he keeps setting up these fantastic scenarios and plants so many mysteries and it always get out of hand. My one concern when I heard that he'd be the one to direct TFA was that the mysteries and plots would get out of hand. This isn't television, you only have 7-8 hours to wrap up the story.

I wish that Rian had gone deeper into the Jedi lore and Force balance, I'd take that over Finn and Rose's adventure every time. Which is a shame because I did enjoy the themes in their part but the execution was sub par. I'm so curious to see what he cut from the movie, maybe he did film something about the lore and then cut it for time?
Ynqve
Ynqve
Jedi Padawan
Jedi Padawan

Messages : 243
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Date d'inscription : 2017-12-09

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