The Last Jedi: Our Reviews and Reactions

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Post by Tex on Mon 18 Dec 2017, 1:24 pm

@AnneNeville wrote:I just realized... Neither Kylo nor Rey completed their training.
@AnneNeville

Yeah, what was Luke's third lesson for Rey?
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Post by AnneNeville on Mon 18 Dec 2017, 1:32 pm

@Tex wrote:
@AnneNeville wrote:I just realized... Neither Kylo nor Rey completed their training.
@AnneNeville

Yeah, what was Luke's third lesson for Rey?
@Tex

"No handsex with my nephew."
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Post by Rei of Sunshine on Mon 18 Dec 2017, 1:33 pm

@Tex wrote:
@AnneNeville wrote:I just realized... Neither Kylo nor Rey completed their training.
@AnneNeville

Yeah, what was Luke's third lesson for Rey?
@Tex

Don't Forceskyp my Naughty Nephew
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Post by AnneNeville on Mon 18 Dec 2017, 1:40 pm

We're on the same wavelength.

I'm also back to virgin!Kylo, especially with the big deal they made out of him removing his glove.
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Post by SanghaRen on Mon 18 Dec 2017, 1:49 pm

I spoke with a very GA colleague today who also saw the movie. He has seen TFA only once and does not remember it. I wanted his opinion first so I let him talk before giving my opinion. So favorite scene: the fight with the red dudes, definitively. Favorite character: the Jedi chick - I told you, very GA guy Smile But then later he said he really liked the development of the guy with the red T-saber, how you think he might become good but then not. He actually liked both the Jedi chick and villain best. The others he did not care much about. To my question what he thinks their relationship is - hold on to your seats for that one - : “They’re brother and sister. Or they will end up in bed together.” Say, what? That is like going from one exteme to the other. He then added he prefers the second option because we already had Luke and Leia, but he doesn’t know how it’d get there because they are now enemies. That’s the GA to you. Unfazed.
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Post by Piper Maru on Mon 18 Dec 2017, 1:54 pm

Just got out of a session. This time I watched a version in Brazilian Portuguese. With the language difference and the adaptations it brings, I think my main problem with the movie was the dialogue. Since it’s very dilluted in the translation, I enjoyed it more. The edition is still awful and the Resistance plot is the worst, but there’s no doubt that Reylo is endgame. Now I’m going to the next session (original audio in English) and I’ll come back.
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Post by Night Huntress on Mon 18 Dec 2017, 2:03 pm

I watch it tomorrow with my husband - I'm very curious about his opinion. He is totally GA and not even much into Star Wars at all. He is more a Trekki (traitor!). We watch TFA before going to the theatre because he can't remember what happened in VII and want to know before watching VIII Rolling Eyes
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Post by FrolickingFizzgig on Mon 18 Dec 2017, 2:09 pm

@AnneNeville wrote:
@Tex wrote:
@AnneNeville wrote:I just realized... Neither Kylo nor Rey completed their training.
@AnneNeville

Yeah, what was Luke's third lesson for Rey?
@Tex

"No handsex with my nephew."
@AnneNeville
I'm still kind of in shock that LucasFilm/Disney OKAYED Rian Johnson's "exploration of female sexuality through overt symbols, subtext and literal text" arthouse film wrapped up in a Renperor/Reylo package.
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Post by AnneNeville on Mon 18 Dec 2017, 2:11 pm

@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:
@AnneNeville wrote:
@Tex wrote:
@AnneNeville wrote:I just realized... Neither Kylo nor Rey completed their training.
@AnneNeville

Yeah, what was Luke's third lesson for Rey?
@Tex

"No handsex with my nephew."
@AnneNeville
I'm still kind of in shock that LucasFilm/Disney OKAYED Rian Johnson's "exploration of female sexuality through overt symbols, subtext and literal text" arthouse film wrapped up in a Renperor/Reylo package.
@FrolickingFizzgig

::Dances::
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Post by MeadowofAshes on Mon 18 Dec 2017, 2:19 pm

@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:
@AnneNeville wrote:
@Tex wrote:
@AnneNeville wrote:I just realized... Neither Kylo nor Rey completed their training.
@AnneNeville

Yeah, what was Luke's third lesson for Rey?
@Tex

"No handsex with my nephew."
@AnneNeville
I'm still kind of in shock that LucasFilm/Disney OKAYED Rian Johnson's "exploration of female sexuality through overt symbols, subtext and literal text" arthouse film wrapped up in a Renperor/Reylo package.
@FrolickingFizzgig

You and me both...
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Post by Moonjump05 on Mon 18 Dec 2017, 2:20 pm

@SanghaRen wrote:I spoke with a very GA colleague today who also saw the movie. He has seen TFA only once and does not remember it. I wanted his opinion first so I let him talk before giving my opinion. So favorite scene: the fight with the red dudes, definitively. Favorite character: the Jedi chick - I told you, very GA guy Smile But then later he said he really liked the development of the guy with the red T-saber, how you think he might become good but then not. He actually liked both the Jedi chick and villain best. The others he did not care much about. To my question what he thinks their relationship is - hold on to your seats for that one - : “They’re brother and sister. Or they will end up in bed together.” Say, what? That is like going from one exteme to the other. He then added he prefers the second option because we already had Luke and Leia, but he doesn’t know how it’d get there because they are now enemies. That’s the GA to you. Unfazed.
@SanghaRen

At bolded, isn't there some cultures that think that male/female twins are reincarnated lovers? (or the other way around)

Actually, for all those people who were sure of Rey Solo because of the force bond between Luke and Leia- this force bond is just manifesting itself between lovers instead of siblings, lol
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Post by EchoBase on Mon 18 Dec 2017, 2:21 pm

Don’t know where to put this, so I leave it here. Must be from the NYT photoshoot:

The Last Jedi: Our Reviews and Reactions - Page 37 Aafd4210
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Post by IoJovi on Mon 18 Dec 2017, 2:24 pm

@Cowgirlsamurai wrote:
@Birdwoman wrote:I am looking forward to seeing this movie.  So, Rian said we will know who to root for at the end of this movie.  Is that true?
@Birdwoman

I’m so confused by that because I was mad at everyone but Kylo/Ben the first time around, and I still fill most sympathetic for him after three watches, but Kylo haters might be like, “Hahaha, he’s screwed now.” And basically, Rian didn’t put Ben on the path to redemption because it’s what was expected. Yes, he’s “tooling with us.” Lol
@Cowgirlsamurai

To be fair, he said we’d know who to root for. He didn’t say we’d know how it would end. And given how everything went down and I’m seeing posts left and right from the GA rooting for Reylo, I’d say that’s very true.

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Post by Tex on Mon 18 Dec 2017, 2:32 pm

@AnneNeville wrote:
@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:
@AnneNeville wrote:
@Tex wrote:
@AnneNeville wrote:I just realized... Neither Kylo nor Rey completed their training.
@AnneNeville

Yeah, what was Luke's third lesson for Rey?
@Tex

"No handsex with my nephew."
@AnneNeville
I'm still kind of in shock that LucasFilm/Disney OKAYED Rian Johnson's "exploration of female sexuality through overt symbols, subtext and literal text" arthouse film wrapped up in a Renperor/Reylo package.
@FrolickingFizzgig

::Dances::
@AnneNeville

The Last Jedi: Our Reviews and Reactions - Page 37 E8zk6_s-200x150
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Post by vaderito on Mon 18 Dec 2017, 2:33 pm

@IoJovi wrote:
@Cowgirlsamurai wrote:
@Birdwoman wrote:I am looking forward to seeing this movie.  So, Rian said we will know who to root for at the end of this movie.  Is that true?
@Birdwoman

I’m so confused by that because I was mad at everyone but Kylo/Ben the first time around, and I still fill most sympathetic for him after three watches, but Kylo haters might be like, “Hahaha, he’s screwed now.” And basically, Rian didn’t put Ben on the path to redemption because it’s what was expected. Yes, he’s “tooling with us.” Lol
@Cowgirlsamurai

To be fair, he said we’d know who to root for. He didn’t say we’d know how it would end. And given how everything went down and I’m seeing posts left and right from the GA rooting for Reylo, I’d say that’s very true.

@IoJovi

The magic of the fight against the guards. That sold the whole thing. People love couples that fight like one. Rick Heinrichs did not disappoint.

I want Reylo to fight together again. I know they'll have a duel, that's inevitable but fighting together is such a finale thing.

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Post by LesCousinsDangereux on Mon 18 Dec 2017, 2:34 pm

@motherofpearl1 wrote:
@Rei of Sunshine

I am absolutely sure the bond had zero to do with Snoke. Look at how he reacted when Kylo told him how strong Rey was in the Force in TFA. And if Snoke was behind it how come they were still linked when he died? I can see Rey asking Force Ghost Luke why the bond still exists and Luke telling her it has nothing to do with Snoke.
@motherofpearl1

I have a different take, which I personally feel quite confident in, after watching the movie twice, and an errand video clip of that scene that I found online a gazillion times Smile

Snoke created the bond/connection. But as when an architect or builder builds a bridge over a river, when the architect dies, the bridge does not collapse of course. Snoke created the bond, but he does not need to actively maintain it. Once created it stays there (until/unless someone 'breaks' it, if that is possible).

In the Throne Room all three (Snoke, Kylo and Rey) say the truth whenever they speak (Kylo, does not say much, only 'I know what I have to do" (again, a true statement Smile )

Relevant scene in throne room:

Rey to Snoke:"You underestimate Skywalker. And Ben Solo. And Me. It will be your downfall."

Snoke (ironically): "Oh! Have you seen something? A weakness in my apprentice? Is that why you came? [laughs] Young fool. It was I who bridged your minds" [Here we cut to Kylo who looks up in surprise, before cutting back to Snoke].

Snoke continues: "I stuck[?] with Ren's conflicted soul [cut to Kylo getting angry] I knew he was not strong enough to hide it from you and you were not wise enough to resist the bait".

And then he says "And now you will give me Skywalker" and he suspends her in the air and reads her mind about where Luke is.

Snoke speaks the truth. He created the bond/bridge, to enable Rey and Kylo to communicate, and then he just let nature take its course. That was his plan, and it worked. He knew Kylo was conflicted and weak (so can't hide it), and that Rey is naive, compassionate and optimistic and would think she can save him (Kylo) and hence come running (and he was right Smile

So as I see it, he enabled the Force-Skyping. But did not have anything to do with what Rey/Kylo saw or discussed. (Snoke did not manipulate what was communicated between them in any way. He did not need to, even if he had been able to, which we do not know).

Also it is clear to me after repeat viewings of this scene, that Kylo is surprised (and does not like it) when he learns that Snoke created the bond. But the turning point is when he hears Snoke considers him conflicted, weak, not strong enough. And obviously Snoke was right. That is when Kylo decides to kill him.

Also another interesting detail that I missed myself but someone pointed out in reddit. As I see it, Kylo does not say anything but has decided to kill Snoke after the bond revelation and Snoke's reasoning for why he knew how it would work out. Rey angrily force-grabs Kylo's lightsaber, and has a run at Snoke who casually flicks his hand and Rey goes flying dropping the lightsabber, that lands by Kylo's feet spinning until it stops. Kylo looks at it coming to a stop by his feet, and then looks up towards the throne. That is when he gets the idea/plan to spin/turn the lightsaber next to Snoke's throne to kill him. It was another very nice touch. Everything is so very well thought out by RJ (at least all the Rey + Kylo stuff, which was obviously his main focus Smile


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Post by fuhry on Mon 18 Dec 2017, 2:35 pm

@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:So the way Rian has described this whole thing... Rey and Kylo's relationship, Snoke's death and Luke's sacrifice. It's obvious that his major incentive was to force Rey and Kylo to stand on their own two feat in leading roles on opposite sides without their masters. He subverted the master/apprentice dynamics that were present throughout the OT and PT. TLJ plays somewhat like a game of chess, but the set pieces are swapped by plot-twists. At the beginning Snoke is the King on one side and Luke is the King on the other. By the end Kylo has taken over Snoke's role as King and Rey has done the same, taking over in Luke's place with a highly personal and complex relationship with Kylo/Ben. They aren't shadowed by their masters going forward, they are young people who have to find a way through their own efforts.

So in short, all of this was done for Rey and Kylo. Laughing
@FrolickingFizzgig

Excellent point - however, one aspect of this is that Luke clearly does the Obi-wan cloak drop disappearance and is still going to be around. Whereas Snoke is gone for good.
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Post by fuhry on Mon 18 Dec 2017, 2:42 pm

@LesCousinsDangereux wrote:
@motherofpearl1 wrote:
@Rei of Sunshine

I am absolutely sure the bond had zero to do with Snoke. Look at how he reacted when Kylo told him how strong Rey was in the Force in TFA. And if Snoke was behind it how come they were still linked when he died? I can see Rey asking Force Ghost Luke why the bond still exists and Luke telling her it has nothing to do with Snoke.
@motherofpearl1

I have a different take, which I personally feel quite confident in, after watching the movie twice, and an errand video clip of that scene that I found online a gazillion times Smile

Snoke created the bond/connection. But as when an architect or builder builds a bridge over a river, when the architect dies, the bridge does not collapse of course. Snoke created the bond, but he does not need to actively maintain it. Once created it is stays there (until/unless someone 'breaks' it, if that is possible).

In the Throne Room all three (Snoke, Kylo and Rey) say the truth whenever they speak (Kylo, does not say much, only 'I know what I have to do" (again, a true statement Smile )

Relevant scene in throne room:

Rey to Snoke:"You underestimate Skywalker. And Ben Solo. And Me. It will be your downfall."

Snoke (ironically): "Oh! Have you seen something? A weakness in my apprentice? Is that why you came? [laughs] Young fool. It was I who bridged you minds" [Here we cut to Kylo who looks up in surprise, before cutting back to Snoke].

Snoke continues: "I stuck[?] with Ren's conflicted soul [cut to Kylo getting angry] I knew he was not strong enough to hide it from you and you were not wise enough to resist the bait".

And then he says "And now you will give me Skywalker" and he suspends her in the air and reads her mind about where Luke is.

Snoke speaks the truth. He created the bond/bridge, to enable Rey and Kylo to communicate, and then he just let nature take its course. That was his plan, and it worked. He knew Kylo was conflicted and weak (so can't hide it), and that Rey is naive, compassionate and optimistic and would think she can save him (Kylo) and hence come running (and he was right Smile

So as I see it, he enabled the Force-Skyping. But did not have anything to do with what Rey/Kylo saw or discussed. (Snoke did not manipulate what was communicated between them in any way. He did not need to, even if he had been able to, which we do not know).

Also it is clear to me after repeat viewings of this scene, that Kylo is surprised (and does not like it) when he learns that Snoke created the bond. But the turning point is when he hears Snoke considers him conflicted, weak, not strong enough. And obviously Snoke was right. That is when Kylo decides to kill him.

Also another interesting detail that I missed myself but someone pointed out in reddit. As I see it, Kylo does not say anything but has decided to kill Snoke after the bond revelation and Snoke's reasoning for why he knew how it would work out. Rey angrily force-grabs Kylo's lightsaber, and has a run at Snoke who casually flicks his hand and Rey goes flying dropping the lightsabber, that lands by Kylo's feet spinning until it stops. Kylo looks at it coming to a stop by his feet, and then looks up towards the throne. That is when he gets the idea/plan to spin/turn the lightsaber next to Snoke's throne to kill him. It was another very nice touch. Everything is so very well thought out by RJ (at least all the Rey + Kylo stuff, which was obviously his main focus Smile
@LesCousinsDangereux

Cool... I imagine I'll watch this scene many times. The huge thing that Kylo does is that he controls his thoughts so that Snoke does not realize what he is doing until it's too late. But I wondered also if Rey helped him somehow. Maybe just by keeping Snoke so occupied with holding her still. It's almost exactly what happened when Darth Vader hurled the Emperor down the reactor shaft. In my own headcanon ROTJ rewrite, Vader takes out Obi-wan's saber and slices Palpatine in half lengthwise. So I thought that part was pretty cool Smile
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Post by Darth_marshmallow on Mon 18 Dec 2017, 3:05 pm

I’ve been thinking about JJ words about the dark side awakening in the villain and how Kylo is not a fully realised villain yet. From that perspective, I believe that Renperor alongside Reylo was planned from the beginning. We can’t fully sympahise with Kylo in episode 8 because we still need a big bad in the story. Maybe that’s the reason why we didn’t get Snoke’s backstory of how he got to young Ben. It would make him too sympathetic to the audience and his redemption arc too obvious. I’m 100% sure Kylo will be redemed in some way in episode 9 and there’s a chance that we will get a flashback from his childhood.
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Post by SheLitAFire on Mon 18 Dec 2017, 3:43 pm

@IoJovi wrote:

Rey hit him with a double whammy. First, she’s more concerned about the Resistance than she is about him, which I’m sure brought back painful memories of his mother doing the same thing. Second, she goes for the lightsaber instead of talking it out - just like his Uncle. No this doesn’t 100% justify his actions, but it certainly makes them understandable.

@IoJovi

Ugghhhh, when you put it like that I realize I'm even more mad at Rey now.

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Post by Night Huntress on Mon 18 Dec 2017, 3:47 pm

@Darth_marshmallow wrote:I’ve been thinking about JJ words about the dark side awakening in the villain and how Kylo is not a fully realised villain yet. From that perspective, I believe that Renperor alongside Reylo was planned from the beginning. We can’t fully sympahise with Kylo in episode 8 because we still need a big bad in the story. Maybe that’s the reason why we didn’t get Snoke’s backstory of how he got to young Ben. It would make him too sympathetic to the audience and his redemption arc too obvious. I’m 100% sure Kylo will be redemed in some way in episode 9 and there’s a chance that we will get a flashback from his childhood.
@Darth_marshmallow

Yes, maybe now that he is head of a new "government" he will finally understand his mother better? It will be great to see flashbacks of how his mother struggled to hold the Republic together and now he is in almost the same position for his "FO" or whatever he might call it...
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Post by ISeeAnIsland on Mon 18 Dec 2017, 3:50 pm

@LesCousinsDangereux wrote:

Also another interesting detail that I missed myself but someone pointed out in reddit. As I see it, Kylo does not say anything but has decided to kill Snoke after the bond revelation and Snoke's reasoning for why he knew how it would work out. Rey angrily force-grabs Kylo's lightsaber, and has a run at Snoke who casually flicks his hand and Rey goes flying dropping the lightsabber, that lands by Kylo's feet spinning until it stops. Kylo looks at it coming to a stop by his feet, and then looks up towards the throne. That is when he gets the idea/plan to spin/turn the lightsaber next to Snoke's throne to kill him. It was another very nice touch. Everything is so very well thought out by RJ (at least all the Rey + Kylo stuff, which was obviously his main focus Smile
@LesCousinsDangereux

The spinning lightsaber giving Kylo the idea is straight out of an episode of the "End Times" episode of Breaking Bad, where Walt spins the gun on the table, which ends up pointing to the Lily of the Valley plant, which ends up setting in motion his initial plan to kill Gus Fring.

(Rian worked on a few episodes of Breaking Bad, although this particular episode was not one of his that he directed.)
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Post by Tex on Mon 18 Dec 2017, 4:23 pm

@ISeeAnIsland wrote:
@LesCousinsDangereux wrote:

Also another interesting detail that I missed myself but someone pointed out in reddit. As I see it, Kylo does not say anything but has decided to kill Snoke after the bond revelation and Snoke's reasoning for why he knew how it would work out. Rey angrily force-grabs Kylo's lightsaber, and has a run at Snoke who casually flicks his hand and Rey goes flying dropping the lightsabber, that lands by Kylo's feet spinning until it stops. Kylo looks at it coming to a stop by his feet, and then looks up towards the throne. That is when he gets the idea/plan to spin/turn the lightsaber next to Snoke's throne to kill him. It was another very nice touch. Everything is so very well thought out by RJ (at least all the Rey + Kylo stuff, which was obviously his main focus Smile
@LesCousinsDangereux

The spinning lightsaber giving Kylo the idea is straight out of an episode of the "End Times" episode of Breaking Bad, where Walt spins the gun on the table, which ends up pointing to the Lily of the Valley plant, which ends up setting in motion his initial plan to kill Gus Fring.

(Rian worked on a few episodes of Breaking Bad, although this particular episode was not one of his that he directed.)
@ISeeAnIsland

My god I just... Stretcher Everything is just so well thought out. Someone hold me. Is this real life? Cause it's like I've been on cloud nine for the last few days.
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Post by LesCousinsDangereux on Mon 18 Dec 2017, 4:47 pm

@fuhry wrote:
@LesCousinsDangereux

Cool... I imagine I'll watch this scene many times.  The huge thing that Kylo does is that he controls his thoughts so that Snoke does not realize what he is doing until it's too late. But I wondered also if Rey helped him somehow.  Maybe just by keeping Snoke so occupied with holding her still.  It's almost exactly what happened when Darth Vader hurled the Emperor down the reactor shaft.  In my own headcanon ROTJ rewrite, Vader takes out Obi-wan's saber and slices Palpatine in half lengthwise.  So I thought that part was pretty cool Smile
@fuhry

Yes, I can watch that scene endlessly Smile And it is good that Kylo may in general have some anger management issues, but we see here that he is intelligent, and can be calm and collected when really needed. Smile

Also I think it a bit funny that one guardian/mentor (Luke) is all "Stay away from my dangerous naughty nephew", whereas the other (Snoke),
by creating the Force-Skyping app, inadvertedly played the role of matchmaker Smile I always found his name a weird choice, but maybe the fact that it similar to Snake (as in Snake, Adam, Eve) is not completely coincidental Smile
LesCousinsDangereux
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The Last Jedi: Our Reviews and Reactions - Page 37 Empty Re: The Last Jedi: Our Reviews and Reactions

Post by shii405 on Mon 18 Dec 2017, 4:55 pm

@EchoBase wrote:Don’t know where to put this, so I leave it here. Must be from the NYT photoshoot:

The Last Jedi: Our Reviews and Reactions - Page 37 Aafd4210
@EchoBase

They look like "father and mother of the Force" here, should be published in the new sacred Jedi text by the end of IX Very Happy
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