The Last Jedi: Our Reviews and Reactions

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Post by IoJovi on Tue 19 Dec - 0:58

@shii405 wrote:
@EchoBase wrote:Don’t know where to put this, so I leave it here. Must be from the NYT photoshoot:

The Last Jedi: Our Reviews and Reactions - Page 38 Aafd4210
@EchoBase

They look like "father and mother of the Force" here, should be published in the new sacred Jedi text by the end of IX Very Happy
@shii405

I love that he’s in black and she in white. What a photo...

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Post by Cowgirlsamurai on Tue 19 Dec - 1:13

@IoJovi wrote:
@Cowgirlsamurai wrote:
@Birdwoman wrote:I am looking forward to seeing this movie.  So, Rian said we will know who to root for at the end of this movie.  Is that true?
@Birdwoman

I’m so confused by that because I was mad at everyone but Kylo/Ben the first time around, and I still fill most sympathetic for him after three watches, but Kylo haters might be like, “Hahaha, he’s screwed now.” And basically, Rian didn’t put Ben on the path to redemption because it’s what was expected. Yes, he’s “tooling with us.” Lol
@Cowgirlsamurai

To be fair, he said we’d know who to root for. He didn’t say we’d know how it would end. And given how everything went down and I’m seeing posts left and right from the GA rooting for Reylo, I’d say that’s very true.

@IoJovi

But that’s what I mean. WE are rooting for Kylo, but are we supposed to? The end is totally left up to interpretation. He ends up Supreme Leader, but with puppy dog eyes Laughing Some people will hate him more than ever after TLJ, and want him to never go near Rey again.
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Post by reylo1992 on Tue 19 Dec - 1:28


@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:
@Gemini wrote:
@colibri wrote:
@Gemini wrote:blaming rey for kylos own choices like he has no conscience?

Sometimes kylo does bad things because he chooses to not because he is a poor misguided  child

Sorry I just can't..

I love kylo and all but he fu***d up all by himself.
@Gemini

I wouldn't say Kylo was right about the choices he made. Of course he f***ed up. But I do see where he's coming from. He just killed his master for her (that's at least what it looks like to me after seeing the film once) and when he asks her to join him, she tries to grab the lightsaber. I don't mean Rey should have accepted his request, and asking her in the first place was wrong, too. But her choice to grab the lightsaber... It seems natural to me that Kylo, with all his background story, would see it as another betrayal.
@colibri

Because he has chosen the wrong path and  he emotionally abuses her,  sorry it is what it is.  Rey was right ro leave him there.  There is nothing empowering about what he's doing to her. Rj has even said this recently he's using it to weaken her so she feels worthless and has to lean on him.. That's emotional manipulation and rey did nothing wrong in rejecting him.  It was the right choice.  He chose to treat her that way and instead of admitting his wrongdoing decided to go dark instead

If she went with him Renperor would happen as well.  Rey has nothing to do with that choice of his IMO
@Gemini
Rian also said Kylo was being honest. He was harsh, but he was trying to appeal to the dark side in her. She did the same thing to him with the light side. It was hubris that led them both there. The whole throne scene is way more complex than you're making it out to be in this weird, twisted attempt to make Rey into some kind of victim. Genre-confusion right there.

I find it a little hard to believe that this isn't 90% about Rey Kenobi, FWIW.
@FrolickingFizzgig

To be fair with @Gemini, I honestly didn't feel confortable with Kylo's behavior at my first viewing during that last part of TLJ. Even when you like P&P, that line "you're come from nothing. You're nothing. But not to me" sounds pretty harsh. And Rey looks so heartbroken. Of course, it wouldn't have been a good decision to stay with him.

But like I explained in my latest post above, I can't help myself to feel sorry for Kylo and even angry toward Rey now because...

Rey, honey!

Your arrogant, impulsive and unwise decision to throw yourself in the lion’s mouth pushed the man you were falling in love with in an impossible situation.

Did you seriously expect that forcing him to choose you over Snoke would bring Kylo to give up his ideals after years of FO conditioning all by magic? After you've known each other like...barely 1 week (if not less)?

Then you tried to fool him, making him believe you would take his hand…and instead grabbed the lightsaber by surprise. Not like you hadn't attacked him because of your f****ing impulsiveness before,uh? You always shoots first!

Thus, you destroyed the trust you had built with him during the hand touch in the process. Probably the reason why his legacy lightsaber didn't fly in your hand this time, because you became unworthy of his love in his mind, not because you're a nobody from nothing or because you simply said no.

Having lose both his father figure for your sake and then having lose you, the only thing he had ever left was to take over the FO or vanish somewhere all alone.

And the supreme irony is that you attacked Luke angrily with your staff for "creating Kylo Ren" (once again an impulsive reaction of yours) but ended up creating Supreme Leader Kylo Ren because of your f****ing impulsive decisions.  

Thus you made him the target number 1 for the snakes of the FO, the target number 1 for the Resistance, the target number 1 for Broomboy & cie and more alone than ever.

And still you have the nerve to send him and his sad puppy-eyes sleeping on the couch with your "it's you who all f***** it up" stare before shutting down the doors like you didn't fail him at all


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Post by Night Huntress on Tue 19 Dec - 1:46

@reylo1992 wrote:
Rey, honey!

Your arrogant, impulsive and unwise decision to throw yourself in the lion’s mouth pushed the man you were falling in love with in an impossible situation.

Did you seriously expect that forcing him to choose you over Snoke would bring Kylo to give up his ideals after years of FO conditioning all by magic? After you've known each other like...barely 1 week (if not less)?

Then you tried to fool him, making him believe you would take his hand…and instead grabbed the lightsaber by surprise. Not like you hadn't attacked him because of your f****ing impulsiveness before,uh? You always shoots first!

Thus, you destroyed the trust you had built with him during the hand touch in the process. Probably the reason why his legacy lightsaber didn't fly in your hand this time, because you became unworthy of his love in his mind, not because you're a nobody coming from nothing.

Having lose both his father figure for your sake and then having lose you, the only thing he had ever left was to take over the FO or vanish somewhere all alone.

And the supreme irony is that you attacked Luke angrily with your staff for "creating Kylo Ren" (once again an impulsive reaction of yours) but ended up creating Supreme Leader Kylo Ren because of your f****ing impulsive decisions.  

Thus you made him the target number 1 for the snakes of the FO, the target number 1 for the Resistance, the target number 1 for Broomboy & cie and more alone than ever.

And still you have the nerve to send him and his sad puppy-eyes sleeping on the couch with your "it's you who f***** it up" stare before shutting down the doors like you didn't fail him at all


The Last Jedi: Our Reviews and Reactions - Page 38 Giphy46
@reylo1992

I have to applaud you for that speech! Claps Claps Claps

Even if I don't think it's fair to blame other people for Ben's bad decisions I can totally see and feel his side of the story!

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Post by Piper Maru on Tue 19 Dec - 1:50

My second session of the day just ended, so now I have a more precise opinion about the movie.

1) Reylo and the chemistry between Adam and Daisy are truly the best thing in the movie. I think the movie is divided in two acts: the first (Ahch-To/Supremacy) is the best because there's mystery, intrigue, and something *more* between these two characters and you want to know more about them and what that means. The fight with the guards is the climax of the movie -- in all the sessions, it's the only moment where the audience truly cheers. After that, the movie loses momentum and becomes something very... sterile. The second act (Crait) is truly bland and generic, and I think that separating Rey and Kylo was a mistake. Their dynamic would shake things up there.

2) The worst thing for me is the dialogue. I watched the movie in Brazilian Portuguese and then in English. I hate dubbed movies, but the Portuguese version is better. Why? Because in the process of translating, the dialogue changes and becomes more... diluted, simpler. I liked it better for it. In the original version, I don't think the words match the tone of the movie. They're not fluid. You have conversations that lead nowhere and don't give you insight into the characters. It's just exposition, and it shows.

3) Not a fan of the editing. The movie needed more classic Star Wars transitions because the constant Resistance > Ahch-to > Supremacy jumps get really messy. Sometimes it feels like the movie cuts the scenes in the middle and throws you into something else. It's difficult to engage with the plot and the characters because all goes by so fast.

4) The humor is off. In my two sessions today, people only laughed of the "Rey from Jakku/nowhere" joke, the porgs, BB-8 and Kylo throwing Hux away. All the other jokes fell completely flat. And worse: they undermine serious/emotional moments all the time.

5) Holdo's sacrifice and the light going through Snoke's ship is awesome. One of my favorite moments. Visually, it's beautiful. And Holdo is a bad***, one of the few characters in the movie who were smart.
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Post by Birdwoman on Tue 19 Dec - 1:54

Just got back from seeing the movie for the first time. I am still digesting everything so I will probably have more to say later.
1. I am so glad that Smoke was killed. He is such an evil, POS.
2. Through failure you learn more about yourself than having never failed.
3. Luke Skywalkers story arc was beautiful.
4. This movie was darker than ESB
5. Really enjoyed the force bond stuff.
6. Kylo does not make a good dictator.
7. At the end of the movie, when Kylo is holding the dice, sees Rey through the force vision and then the dice disappear. This quote came to my mind: 'You can't deny the truth that is your family.'

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Post by reylo1992 on Tue 19 Dec - 1:59

@Night Huntress wrote:
@reylo1992 wrote:
Rey, honey!

Your arrogant, impulsive and unwise decision to throw yourself in the lion’s mouth pushed the man you were falling in love with in an impossible situation.

Did you seriously expect that forcing him to choose you over Snoke would bring Kylo to give up his ideals after years of FO conditioning all by magic? After you've known each other like...barely 1 week (if not less)?

Then you tried to fool him, making him believe you would take his hand…and instead grabbed the lightsaber by surprise. Not like you hadn't attacked him because of your f****ing impulsiveness before,uh? You always shoots first!

Thus, you destroyed the trust you had built with him during the hand touch in the process. Probably the reason why his legacy lightsaber didn't fly in your hand this time, because you became unworthy of his love in his mind, not because you're a nobody coming from nothing.

Having lose both his father figure for your sake and then having lose you, the only thing he had ever left was to take over the FO or vanish somewhere all alone.

And the supreme irony is that you attacked Luke angrily with your staff for "creating Kylo Ren" (once again an impulsive reaction of yours) but ended up creating Supreme Leader Kylo Ren because of your f****ing impulsive decisions.  

Thus you made him the target number 1 for the snakes of the FO, the target number 1 for the Resistance, the target number 1 for Broomboy & cie and more alone than ever.

And still you have the nerve to send him and his sad puppy-eyes sleeping on the couch with your "it's you who f***** it up" stare before shutting down the doors like you didn't fail him at all


The Last Jedi: Our Reviews and Reactions - Page 38 Giphy46
@reylo1992

I have to applaud you for that speech! Claps Claps Claps

Even if I don't think it's fair to blame other people for Ben's bad decisions I can totally see and feel his side of the story!

@Night Huntress

Thanks   Smile

I realize now that I should have told the story from Kylo's POV. That would have been funnier

Kylo writing a letter to Rey  a la Darcy based on the information from the VD.

Rey, sweetheart

Your arrogant, impulsive and unwise decision, blablabla....

P.S. Wanna skypecall me again ?
The Last Jedi: Our Reviews and Reactions - Page 38 Giphy47


lol!  lol!  lol!
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Post by AnneNeville on Tue 19 Dec - 2:23

@EchoBase wrote:Don’t know where to put this, so I leave it here. Must be from the NYT photoshoot:

The Last Jedi: Our Reviews and Reactions - Page 38 Aafd4210
@EchoBase

Is the title of this "Jedi Gothic"?
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Post by Xylo Ren on Tue 19 Dec - 2:31

@Tex wrote:
@AnneNeville wrote:I just realized... Neither Kylo nor Rey completed their training.
@AnneNeville

Yeah, what was Luke's third lesson for Rey?
@Tex

it'll probably be the failure lesson he and Yoda talked about Wink
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Post by FrolickingFizzgig on Tue 19 Dec - 2:41

Just got back from my second viewing. Took a friend along this time. He loved it and was very upset when Kylo f***ed up because he wanted them to be together.

The movie was phenomenal the second time. My mind was kind of blown because I knew what to expect and was really able to immerse myself in the narrative and take in all the themes and symbols. It was a very different experience and I highly recommend making the time for at least 2-3 viewings before it's out of theatres.

My two biggest observations this time:

The theme of teachers and apprentices. Snoke and Luke are juxtaposed and compared beautifully this film. Like, holy s***. What an incredible and daring theme from Rian. All the talk of hubris being the downfall of the Jedi and the cause of Luke's fear of Ben's power. He had a brief call to confront his nephew before he had made his choice and played a hand in creating Kylo as a result. Similarly Snoke's hubris causes his death. He is so convinced his apprentice could never "grow beyond" him that he fails to truly understand his conflict, his "Solo heart", and he pays the ultimate consequence.

If anybody needs evidence that Luke was 110% taking the role of teacher once more to Ben at the end, stalling him and allowing him to channel his anger, look no further than the dialogue. Luke actually uses the exact same line during his first "training" session with Rey in which he teaches her about what lies between dark and light (i.e. balance). He tells her "Amazing. Every single word you just said is wrong". He repeats the line to Ben on the salt field after he screams about how he's going to destroy Rey and the Jedi. "Amazing. Every single word you just said is wrong."

Yoda's "We are what we grow beyond." The greatest feat of any teacher is raising a student who surpasses you -- who grows beyond you. Kylo grew beyond Snoke in this film, but was unable to overcome the trauma of his past. Luke is smiling throughout his entire confrontation with Ben, and Yoda's line makes his entire send-off all the more emotional. He does not come to save Ben, but he does confront his own failure and sew the seeds of forgiveness. He knows he has a lot to make up for. Not to Rey, but to Ben. And nobody is ever truly gone.

The dice -- the games of chance! Canto Bight is a planet where people gamble the days away in games of chance. When Kylo's lightsaber slides across the floor in Snoke's throne room it spins like the wheel of a roulette table. Luke picks up the playing dice from the Falcon and later brings them with him when he astral projects to Crait. He hands Leia the "dice" and by the end of the film they end up Kylo's hand. Luke bought everybody another chance, Ben included.


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Post by Little_Boots on Tue 19 Dec - 3:08

@EchoBase wrote:Don’t know where to put this, so I leave it here. Must be from the NYT photoshoot:

The Last Jedi: Our Reviews and Reactions - Page 38 Aafd4210
@EchoBase

Love this picture!!! But I kind of wish there wasn't a stepladder in the background
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Post by reylo1992 on Tue 19 Dec - 3:17

An interesting post about the reasons why Kylo Ren needed to be harsh with Rey:

A lot of people got mad at how short-tempered Ben Solo was when he was telling Rey to admit who her parents are, but I don’t think it would’ve worked any other way. Because Han tried to persuade her to move on with her life without actually mentioning her parents which didn’t work even though she saw him as a father figure. Maz tried to blatantly say that her parents weren’t coming back in a gentle manner, but Rey got angry and ran off.

Rey needed tough love on this point because she wouldn’t accept it any other way. The words needed to be forced out her mouth, not coaxed. Now that she’s realized that her parents deserted her on Jakku she can move on with her life and become what she needs to become.

Ben knew that she couldn’t reach her fullest potential unless she let go of the past. Now whether that should be the lot of things he was saying should die or just Rey’s abandonment issues due to her s*** parents is arguable. Ben gave her the tough love she needed though so that she could make her own choices from there. I honestly think that’s really important to where this story will go.

http://hey-losers-its-me--ya-boi.tumblr.com/post/168696872157/deathbychickenzz-a-lot-of-people-got-mad-at-how
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Post by Cowgirlsamurai on Tue 19 Dec - 3:48

@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:

The theme of teachers and apprentices. Snoke and Luke are juxtaposed and compared beautifully this film. Like, holy s***. What an incredible and daring theme from Rian. All the talk of hubris being the downfall of the Jedi and the cause of Luke's fear of Ben's power. He had a brief call to confront his nephew before he had made his choice and played a hand in creating Kylo as a result. Similarly Snoke's hubris causes his death. He is so convinced his apprentice could never "grow beyond" him that he fails to truly understand his conflict, his "Solo heart", and he pays the ultimate consequence.

@FrolickingFizzgig

I freaking loved that in this movie they both reject their masters. I thought Kylo was being an a** when he offered to be Rey’s teacher in TFA when they were already being set up as equals. By the end of TLJ they truly are (thanks in part to Rey’s refusal, which tears my heart out.)

Also, @Tex and I noticed Luke’s “Everything you just said is wrong,” repeat the other day too. Brilliant.
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Post by FrolickingFizzgig on Tue 19 Dec - 3:58

I'm simultaneously amused and baffled that "Rey and Kylo are mean to each other" has become an issue. Kylo was harsh with her because he was trying to appeal to her darkness. He wanted her to join him. He's an extremely honest person and genuinely believed his vision was the truth. He thought what he saw would get him what he wanted, her at his side. It was honest selfishness, but selfishness nonetheless.

The attempts to transform Rey into some kind of victim are astonishing to me. This is a young woman who is not afraid to call Kylo a monster. She is not afraid to attempt to kill him. She isn't under some thrall or being unknowingly manipulated. They are equally harsh with each other and it's great. Writing that goes soft on this front is lame. Something I love about dynamics like this is the equality. Without equality there can be no balance, one of the reasons many saw Kylo as Rey's love-interest or other half long before TLJ. He was very honest with her in TFA as well. They go back-and-forth naturally and hold nothing back from each other. It's pure poetry. Two people who see the best and worst in each other and who are only at their strongest united.
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Post by ZioRen on Tue 19 Dec - 4:24

Thinking about the description of both Rey and Kylo's journey being toward fully realized adulthood is reassuring to me. Because I don't think it's at all possible to be a fully realized adult and still be fully on the dark side. Especially the way Kylo experiences the dark side. Giving into the worst impulses and the worst variations of your emotions isn't maturity; quite the opposite, actually. I've seen some people reading it as Kylo developing into a powerful villain, but I just don't think that explanation works.

I was also thinking about the Luke and Kylo scene again, because I had a rather visceral reaction to it and all of the meta on why it was a beautiful scene was understood but didn't fully sit with me. I don't think that Kylo got anything at all cathartic out of that encounter, but now I think that was the idea. Just like some have pointed out that Rey needed the "tough love" of being forced to accept the truth about her parents the way Kylo told it to her (despite of what you think of Kylo's intentions in saying it as he did), I think Kylo needed some tough love here too. Nothing about what or how Rey learned about her parents was cathartic, but that was the point. She needed to confront it, accept it, and move on (which is why I'm going to be 1000% pissed if JJ retcons her parents into good people or people of importance).

Nothing about Kylo's interactions with Luke were cathartic for him either, and I think that was also the intention and what Luke wanted to show him. Kylo has lashed out at and tried to drive his saber into so many of his problems thinking it will get him somewhere...and it gets him nowhere. For how much it helps him, he may as well be lashing out at thin air. So when he does this same thing toward Luke, a huge source of his pain and anger, Luke makes it so he quite literally lashes out at thin air. This is not the way forward, and this will never get Kylo anywhere he wants or needs. Of course, Kylo isn't at the point where he accepts this yet, so the encounter is difficult and humiliating for him. I said it elsewhere, but I definitely think that Crait, with the salt over blood red undersoil, is meant to be a visual interpretation of 'salt in the wounds'. It certainly is exactly that for Kylo in every way. 

Every move Kylo is making in that scene is wrong. Every word Kylo says in that scene is wrong. Luke isn't going to let him hide from that regardless of their past. He's going to make Kylo face it in the most frustrating way possible, just like Rey had to face her truth in the most frustrating way possible. Whether Kylo learns from that eventually remains to be seen.


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Post by Kylo Men on Tue 19 Dec - 4:31

Rey needed to hear it. Kylo also told her that she latches on to any father figure she can find, which she needed to hear. What's the point of being/having an a**hole boyfriend if he isn't going to tell you things you need to hear sometimes? You can get "Your special is the most special special that's ever made me feel special" from any ..... random fugitive stormtrooper. Finn really is the worst person in this trilogy.

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Post by Irina de France on Tue 19 Dec - 4:39

@Kylo Men wrote:Rey needed to hear it. Kylo also told her that she latches on to any father figure she can find, which she needed to hear. What's the point of being/having an a**hole boyfriend if he isn't going to tell you things you need to hear sometimes? You can get "Your special is the most special special that's ever made me feel special" from any ..... random fugitive stormtrooper. Finn really is the worst person in this trilogy.
@Kylo Men

... so your point is?
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Post by FrolickingFizzgig on Tue 19 Dec - 4:41

@ZioRen wrote:Thinking about the description of both Rey and Kylo's journey being toward fully realized adulthood is reassuring to me. Because I don't think it's at all possible to be a fully realized adult and still be on the dark side. Especially the way Kylo experiences the dark side. Giving into the worst impulses and the worst variations of your emotions isn't maturity; quite the opposite, actually. I've seen some people reading it as Kylo developing into a powerful villain, but I just don't think that explanation works.

I was also thinking about the Luke and Kylo scene again, because I had a rather visceral reaction to it and all of the meta on why it was a beautiful scene was understood but didn't fully sit with me. I don't think that Kylo got anything at all cathartic out of that encounter, but now I think that was the point. Just like some have pointed out that Rey needed the "tough love" of being forced to accept the truth about her parents the way Kylo told it to her (despite of what you think of Kylo's intentions in saying it as he did), I think Kylo needed some tough love here too. Nothing about what Rey learned about her parents was cathartic, but that was the point. She needed to confront it, accept it, and move on.

Nothing about Kylo's interactions with Luke were cathartic for him either, and I think that was also the intention and what Luke wanted to show him. Kylo has lashed out at and tried to drive his saber into so many of his problems thinking it will get him somewhere...and it gets him nowhere. For how much it helps him, he may as well be lashing out at thin air. So when he does this same thing toward Luke, a huge source of his pain and anger, Luke makes it so he quite literally lashes out at thin air. This is not the way forward, and this will never get Kylo anywhere he wants or needs. Of course, Kylo isn't at the point where he accepts this yet, so the encounter is difficult and humiliating for him. I said it elsewhere, but I definitely think that Crait, with the salt over blood red undersoil, is meant to be a visual interpretation of 'salt in the wounds'. It certainly is exactly that for Kylo in every way. 

Every move Kylo is making in that scene is wrong. Every word Kylo says in that scene is wrong. Luke isn't going to let him hide from that regardless of their past. He's going to make Kylo face it in the most frustrating way possible, just like Rey had to face her truth in the most frustrating way possible. Whether Kylo learns from that eventually remains to be seen.
@ZioRen
Luke finally returned and played the role of teacher to Ben again, thus why the audience needs to hear him repeat his words from his first lesson with Rey. We're meant to draw the connection upon multiple viewings. It wasn't the time for genuine apologies or the time to comfort Ben. Kylo isn't ready for that yet. He has yet to fully realize or admit how wrong he is (thus his hilarious "I bet you are!" upon hearing Luke's confessions).

The end-goal is and always has been adulthood. Maturity. If that maturity was meant to = his full journey to becoming Vader he wouldn't be in a more prominent leadership position than Vader (and still have the eyes of a frightened boy) at the end of movie 2.

Kylo took some truly impressive steps in his coming-of-age in this film (the "nobody developed" thing is such BS), but he isn't there yet and won't be until his story is finished.
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Post by ZioRen on Tue 19 Dec - 4:48

@FrolickingFizzgig

Agreed, and the steps he did take toward coming of age (i.e. taking a stand against Snoke and grasping his own destiny) were inspired by the connection he forged with Rey. But because he's not ready to fully learn his lessons, and because that connection between he and Rey hasn't yet developed into what it should be for them to reach their full potential, he backslid and struggled again at the end. But it ain't over until it's over, and when he can reconcile with himself, his past, and also with Rey, he'll finally be a man, swift as the coursing river, etc etc.  Laughing
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Post by FrolickingFizzgig on Tue 19 Dec - 4:55

@Kylo Men wrote:Rey needed to hear it. Kylo also told her that she latches on to any father figure she can find, which she needed to hear. What's the point of being/having an a**hole boyfriend if he isn't going to tell you things you need to hear sometimes? You can get "Your special is the most special special that's ever made me feel special" from any ..... random fugitive stormtrooper. Finn really is the worst person in this trilogy.
@Kylo Men
Poe is the worst person in this trilogy. It is known.
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Post by MindAndMagic on Tue 19 Dec - 5:07

I haven't seen it a second time yet, but I do remember lots of parallels b/w Rey and Ben that were very obvious and intentional. The repeated Luke line "everything you just said was wrong" is one of them: in one case (addressed to Rey) it's about the meaning of the Force and in the other (addressed to Ben) it's about Ben's delusions. Luke is all too aware than Ben won't destroy anything, he sees right through him and his impulsive immaturity. He still cares enormously and feels guilty and responsible for what happened to him, but this tough love approach was the only effective way to handle the situation at the time. Another detail I noticed, which could be regarded as a parallel is when Luke was first observing Rey training with the saber (before he agreed to guide her): he was looking from afar and at first he was smiling as if the sight reminded him of the old training days with Ben. Then suddenly Rey slashed the rock in front of her in two and his expression immediately changed, no doubt thinking of Ben's eventual dark turn, a transition from peace to aggression. Then obviously there's Luke's words about the raw strength that he has only seen once before in his nephew. Also Rey rebelling against him in a fit of rage after learning the truth about Ben, again it probably reminded him of Ben's reaction that night judging by his stunned expression as he was lying in the rain with Rey standing above, pointing her staff at him. It's also emphasized throughout how similar Rey and Ben are in terms of their explosive temper ("such spunk", as the ex-supreme leader said), stubborness and even fighting style. I just love Rian's bold decision to completely subvert the master-student dynamic by leaving Rey and Ben to develop and survive on their own. The whole combo fight sequence had such an exciting spirit of raw youth and freedom.


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Post by Lily Snape on Tue 19 Dec - 5:15

@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:
@Kylo Men wrote:Rey needed to hear it. Kylo also told her that she latches on to any father figure she can find, which she needed to hear. What's the point of being/having an a**hole boyfriend if he isn't going to tell you things you need to hear sometimes? You can get "Your special is the most special special that's ever made me feel special" from any ..... random fugitive stormtrooper. Finn really is the worst person in this trilogy.
@Kylo Men
Poe is the worst person in this trilogy. It is known.
@FrolickingFizzgig

The worst of the main new characters?   I have to agree.  He blows off Leia and risks people's lives for potential glory.  Poe got knocked down quite a few pegs in my estimation as Leia looked at that screen and one ship after another was X'ed out.  Finn, on the other hand, goes from "must save myself" to "must save Rey" to "must save Rey and the rebellion" to Rebel Scum, in his own words, willing to die on a suicide mission to help the rebellion.  

Of course, I don't know Poe's backstory-- obviously I'm extending plenty of forgiveness to Kylo here because he's been manipulated and groomed since before he was born.

I loved the increased complexity of Rey in TLJ, and I was really impressed that RJ set up her bond and friendship and even budding romance with Ben without losing herself.
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Post by FrolickingFizzgig on Tue 19 Dec - 5:23

@MindAndMagic wrote:I haven't seen it a second time yet, but I do remember all the parallels b/w Rey and Ben that were very obvious and intentional. The repeated Luke line "everything you just said was wrong" is one of them: in one case (adressed to Rey) it's about the meaning of the Force and in the other (addressed to Ben) it's about Ben's delusions. Luke is all too aware than Ben won't destroy anything, he sees right through him and his impulsive immaturity. He still cares enormously for him and feels guilty and responsible for what happened to him, but this tough love approach was the only effective way to handle the situation at the time. Another detail I noticed, which could be regarded as a parallel is when Luke was first observing rey training with the saber (before he agreed to guilde her): he was looking from afar and at first he was smiling as if the sight reminded him of the old training days with Ben. Then suddenly Rey slashed the rock in front of her in two and his expression immediately changed, no doubt thinking of Ben's eventual dark turn, a transition from peace to aggression. Then obviously there's Luke's words about the raw strength that he has only seen once before in his nephew. Also Rey rebelling against him in a fit of rage after learning the truth about Ben, again it probably reminded him of Ben's reaction that night judging by his stunned expression as he was lying in the rain with Rey standing above, pointing her staff at him. It's also emphasized throughout how similar Rey and Ben are in terms of their explosive temper ("such spunk", as the ex-supreme leader said), stubborness and even fighting style. I just love Rian's bold decision to completely subvert the master-student dynamic by leaving Rey and Ben to develop and survice on their own. The whole combo fight sequence had such an exciting spirit of raw youth and freedom.
@MindAndMagic
Not only do Snoke and Luke's deaths leave Kylo and Rey as Force plot "leaders" on opposite sides, they completely shift the tone of the franchise. DJ summed that up well, actually. One day you blow them up, one day they blow you up. It's a never-ending cycle. But with TLJ the ST was turned on its head because there is no oppressive "big bad" or evil parental figure. There is no second death star you can blow up, destroying every remnant of the Empire with it. There is no "us" vs. "them". There is only war itself, only struggling youth. You can't just wipe the other side off the face of the galaxy, burn your redeemed father's corpse and have a party on Endor. Rey and Kylo made damn sure of that.
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Post by ISeeAnIsland on Tue 19 Dec - 5:27

@Lily Snape wrote:
@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:
@Kylo Men wrote:Rey needed to hear it. Kylo also told her that she latches on to any father figure she can find, which she needed to hear. What's the point of being/having an a**hole boyfriend if he isn't going to tell you things you need to hear sometimes? You can get "Your special is the most special special that's ever made me feel special" from any ..... random fugitive stormtrooper. Finn really is the worst person in this trilogy.
@Kylo Men
Poe is the worst person in this trilogy. It is known.
@FrolickingFizzgig

The worst of the main new characters?   I have to agree.  He blows off Leia and risks people's lives for potential glory.  Poe got knocked down quite a few pegs in my estimation as Leia looked at that screen and one ship after another was X'ed out.  Finn, on the other hand, goes from "must save myself" to "must save Rey" to "must save Rey and the rebellion" to Rebel Scum, in his own words, willing to die on a suicide mission to help the rebellion.  

Of course, I don't know Poe's backstory-- obviously I'm extending plenty of forgiveness to Kylo here because he's been manipulated and groomed since before he was born.

I loved the increased complexity of Rey in TLJ, and I was really impressed that RJ set up her bond and friendship and even budding romance with Ben without losing herself.
@Lily Snape

FWIW, I think they intentionally set Poe up to look like a (mansplaining) a**, and I think it was a really bold choice. Remember leading up to TLJ, we were speculating on Poe taking unnecessary risks, doing morally questionable things...and that's exactly what we got. We had a lot of hints that the Resistance would be less likable ("good people making bad choices") in TLJ, and I think Poe was meant to be the representation of this.

It'll be interesting to see if his leadership style matures in IX (as they seemed to be hinting at at the end of TLJ when Leia essentially handed him the keys to the Resistance), or if his impulsive style ends up putting the remaining members of the Resistance in danger. It could set up an interesting situation for Rey, given that this will be her first extended exposure to actually being part of the Resistance.

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