Reylo in TLJ & Literary Analysis

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Re: Reylo in TLJ & Literary Analysis

Post by thescavenger on Tue 02 Jan 2018, 10:46 am

@ReyloSpanishFan wrote:Sorry for bumping this thread again, but I just remembered another narrative similarity, also with a well-known Disney movie: The Lion King. It has more to do with Simba (the prince-then-king) and Nala story. As you know, Simba runs away after Mufasa´s death because Scar makes him feel guilty about that (okay, he believes he is the cause of his father demise). Years pass and Nala and him meet each other again, now as grown ups. They fall in love and it seems that they get together. BUT Simba is still trapped by his past and he can´t let it go, so he and Nala argue and she leaves him. Very much like TLJ ending (with obvious differences):



It is not until Simba finds himself and understands the true meaning of accepting your past and faults that he can return to the Prideland and save everybody. It is not Nala who brings him back, but himself (with a little help from Rafiki (Luke?) and Mufasa´s ghost (Han? Leia? Luke again?) and, yes, obviously the lecture from Nala. The good thing is.... The Lion King remake (by Disney) releases in 2019, too Smile
@ReyloSpanishFan

I'm thinking that maybe the second Lion King ("Simba's Pride") is a better comparison for Reylo - which also takes inspiration from Romeo & Juliet. Apart from Kovu getting a scar right across the face like Kylo does, he's also depicted as coming from the evil Outlands, whereas Kiara's the princess from Simba's pride. Just like in TLJ, they find that third neutral ground and bond, despite their family's objections. Eventually, Kovu's mother asks him to use his friendship/relationship with Kiara against Simba (Snoke much?). Kovu also doubts his own darkness, having been compared to Scar and deemed his heir quite often. Halfway through, Kovu betrays his pride, but is also exiled by Simba. The best part is when he asks her to run away with him and start a pride, sounds familiar? She rejects the offer and then they try to unite their prides.

Side note also on how Simba is basically Luke, the previous protagonist trying to come to terms with the new generation.

(yeah, sorry. I watched this hungover on new year's day and I can't get the similarities out of my head.)
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Re: Reylo in TLJ & Literary Analysis

Post by SheLitAFire on Tue 02 Jan 2018, 11:19 am

@ReyloSpanishFan
Sorry for bumping this thread again

Never be sorry for bumping up a thread Love Cheek kiss
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Re: Reylo in TLJ & Literary Analysis

Post by Good-olio Raeh on Tue 02 Jan 2018, 9:38 pm

A friend and I had a discussion on Facebook about this same topic, regarding the parallels between Kylo/Rey and Jane Eyre, so I had this on hand, ready to share. LOL.  I hope this is okay to quote because it is straight from Jane Eyre and to me this is how Rey sees Kylo, someone who once had good him, but has been twisted and hurt by family and she knows in his secret soul that there's still good. Smile Read this description of Rochester from Jane Eyre, and isn't a perfect description of Kylo Ren/Ben Solo?

""And was Mr. Rochester now ugly in my eyes? No, reader: gratitude, and many associations, all pleasurable and genial, made his face the object I best liked to see; his presence in a room was more cheering than the brightest fire. Yet I had not forgotten his faults; indeed, I could not, for he brought them frequently before me. He was proud, sardonic, harsh to inferiority of every description: in my secret soul I knew that his great kindness to me was balanced by unjust severity to many others. He was moody, too; unaccountably so; I more than once, when sent for to read to him, found him sitting in his library alone, with his head bent on his folded arms; and, when he looked up, a morose, almost a malignant, scowl blackened his features. But I believed that his moodiness, his harshness, and his former faults of morality (I say former, for now he seemed corrected of them) had their source in some cruel cross of fate. I believed he was naturally a man of better tendencies, higher principles, and purer tastes than such as circumstances had developed, education instilled, or destiny encouraged. I thought there were excellent materials in him; though for the present they hung together somewhat spoiled and tangled. I cannot deny that I grieved for his grief, whatever that was, and would have given much to assuage it."


Last edited by Good-olio Raeh on Wed 03 Jan 2018, 1:46 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Reylo in TLJ & Literary Analysis

Post by snufkin on Tue 02 Jan 2018, 11:17 pm

Anybody else felt the urge to revisit Angela Carter's The Bloody Chamber and the film adaption, In the Company of Wolves ("If there's a beast in man, it meets its match in women, too.") she did with Neil Jordan?



Neil Jordan wrote:The Company of Wolves is about how society teaches young women to look at themselves, and what to be afraid of. It's about a girl learning that the world of sensuality and the unknown is not to be feared, that it's worth getting your teeth into.
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Re: Reylo in TLJ & Literary Analysis

Post by thescavenger on Wed 03 Jan 2018, 6:17 pm

Have we ever compared Reylo to Danny and Sandy in Grease? cyclops
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Re: Reylo in TLJ & Literary Analysis

Post by Starliteprism on Wed 03 Jan 2018, 6:19 pm

@thescavenger wrote:Have we ever compared Reylo to Danny and Sandy in Grease? cyclops
@thescavenger

*sings* I got forceboooonds....they're multiplying! haha
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Re: Reylo in TLJ & Literary Analysis

Post by PalmettoBlue on Wed 03 Jan 2018, 6:24 pm

@Starliteprism wrote:
@thescavenger wrote:Have we ever compared Reylo to Danny and Sandy in Grease? cyclops
@thescavenger

*sings* I got forceboooonds....they're multiplying! haha
@Starliteprism

"and I'm losing control...'cause the power you're supplying, is electrifying!"

Actually, that song isn't a terrible description of Ben and Rey. Not perfect, of course...by not terrible.
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Re: Reylo in TLJ & Literary Analysis

Post by thescavenger on Wed 03 Jan 2018, 6:27 pm

@PalmettoBlue wrote:
@Starliteprism wrote:
@thescavenger wrote:Have we ever compared Reylo to Danny and Sandy in Grease? cyclops
@thescavenger

*sings* I got forceboooonds....they're multiplying! haha
@Starliteprism

"and I'm losing control...'cause the power you're supplying, is electrifying!"

Actually, that song isn't a terrible description of Ben and Rey. Not perfect, of course...by not terrible.
@PalmettoBlue

And Rey's all like "you better shape up, 'cause I need a man, and my heart is set on youuu"
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Re: Reylo in TLJ & Literary Analysis

Post by Starliteprism on Wed 03 Jan 2018, 6:29 pm

@PalmettoBlue wrote:
@Starliteprism wrote:
@thescavenger wrote:Have we ever compared Reylo to Danny and Sandy in Grease? cyclops
@thescavenger

*sings* I got forceboooonds....they're multiplying! haha
@Starliteprism

"and I'm losing control...'cause the power you're supplying, is electrifying!"

Actually, that song isn't a terrible description of Ben and Rey. Not perfect, of course...by not terrible.
@PalmettoBlue

Thanks for the e-duet. rabbit

And thinking about the lyrics, think you are onto something. Smile

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Re: Reylo in TLJ & Literary Analysis

Post by PalmettoBlue on Wed 03 Jan 2018, 6:34 pm

For anyone who's not familiar with this ear bug:


And the songs from Grease? They are pretty naughty for a kids movie. YA movie? Still naughty...As we've seen with TLJ, filmmakers are willing to push boundaries. Makes me wonder what they have in store for 9.
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Re: Reylo in TLJ & Literary Analysis

Post by thescavenger on Wed 03 Jan 2018, 6:49 pm

@PalmettoBlue wrote:For anyone who's not familiar with this ear bug:


And the songs from Grease? They are pretty naughty for a kids movie. YA movie? Still naughty...As we've seen with TLJ, filmmakers are willing to push boundaries. Makes me wonder what they have in store for 9.
@PalmettoBlue

Thanks for posting this. I haven't seen it in a while.

I think the reason I brought it up at the beginning (although it doesn't really make for a proper literary analysis) is the common theme in romances of coming from different places, representing different factions and different sides (I thought the light v. the dark / preppy vs. greaser in all black were pretty clear in both) and the struggle in reaching a common ground despite the attraction.

In a way, Grease resolved it quite simple but heart-warmingly, where Danny and Sandy try to become what the other wants. Of course, I'm quite certain it'll be more complex in our case. I just can't wait for them to break out into a duet in IX.
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Re: Reylo in TLJ & Literary Analysis

Post by shii405 on Wed 03 Jan 2018, 7:34 pm

@thescavenger wrote:In a way, Grease resolved it quite simple but heart-warmingly, where Danny and Sandy try to become what the other wants. Of course, I'm quite certain it'll be more complex in our case. I just can't wait for them to break out into a duet in IX.
@thescavenger

How did they resolve it? I only remember wild Sandy at the end, i dont remember Danny turning preppy haha. So did she turn to the dark side for him? Or they meet in the middle?
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Re: Reylo in TLJ & Literary Analysis

Post by thescavenger on Thu 04 Jan 2018, 3:52 am

@shii405 wrote:
@thescavenger wrote:In a way, Grease resolved it quite simple but heart-warmingly, where Danny and Sandy try to become what the other wants. Of course, I'm quite certain it'll be more complex in our case. I just can't wait for them to break out into a duet in IX.
@thescavenger

How did they resolve it? I only remember wild Sandy at the end, i dont remember Danny turning preppy haha. So did she turn to the dark side for him? Or they meet in the middle?
@shii405

Nah, I think it was just that preppy sweater at the beginning and telling the other t-birds that she means a lot to him and he wants to do anything he can to gets her. it was in the clip, so i have fresh memory.
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Re: Reylo in TLJ & Literary Analysis

Post by shii405 on Thu 04 Jan 2018, 7:38 am



Thanks to @snufkin, I found out Kathleen Kennedy's great fondness for Studio Ghibli animation movies and its characters, she made her kids watch Ghibli films in its original Japanese audio, and she has produced the US version of "Ponyo" and "Arietty."  And then, I remember the first thought came into my mind when I saw Maz Castle in TFA was that "It looks like a Ghibli castle, and the whole sequence of Takodana reminds me of a Ghibli scene..." I did not think of it any further of the reason why it reminded me of Ghibli, thinking it was just a mere coincidence. And then I found a Japanese interview of JJ Abrams saying "I am a big fan of Miyazaki's works!" (Miyazaki Hayao is the main creator/director of Ghibli films)... OHHHH, now it makes great sense! Also, maybe its better to take note that Daisy Ridley said in an interview for her dubbing work in "Only Yesterday" a Ghibli film, that the first Ghibli film she fell in love with is, "Howl's Moving Castle."

I think it's not a secret where K2SO was inspired from? LOL. Laputa, anyone?



I am a huge fan of Ghibli films myself, I've seen almost all of of them, so I decided to look into Ghibli films once again and make comparisons with TFA & TLJ mainly Reylo's relationship. I don't know if this analysis can be useful at all, but since KK and JJ (and Daisy) loves Ghibli films, we might be able to see the direction they are going, just in case they are inspired by Ghibli films.

Almost in every Miyazaki works there are elements of adventure, castles and airplanes. Digging deeper, his films always has a strong young heroine, a villain who doesn't stay a villain, and strange creatures, as well. The following are some of the recurring themes in Ghibli films that are relevant to TFA and TLJ.



Strong young heroines
Miyazaki Hayao loves his female heroes. Like, 80% of the main characters of his works are female. His fondness over strong female characters stood out the most in the Nausicaa of the Valley of the Wind. In this film, the hero is a princess, the villain is a princess, the one who sees the prophecy is an old granny, and there is another pivotal female character. Somehow it reminds me of Rey, Leia, Holdo and Rose's pivotal roles in TLJ. By the way, in most of the cases, the young heroines are strong as in mentally strong. They somehow manage to fight superior physical power with their golden hearts.

A villain who doesn't stay a villain
In "Castle in the Sky", the pirates are portrayed as the bad guys in the beginning but then as Sheeta and Pazu (the main heroes of the story, a young girl and a young boy) get to know them through an adventure, they are not really that bad. The Witch of Waste in "Howl's Moving Castle" who cursed the heroine, Sophie, into a 90 years old woman and whom Sophie hated so much in the beginning, ended up as a family member of Howl and Sophie's at the end of the movie, and I find that really amusing.

Peaceful, Beautiful Scenery destroyed by War



Some of Miyazaki's works contains criticism toward the war. He expressed his hate toward the Iraq war through a scene in "Howl's Moving Castle" where Howl created a beautiful field of flowers as a present for Sophie, Sophie was so happy, and in a romantic moment when they almost confessed their feelings for each other, an air raid came destroying the flower field, as to show how the war can destroy any peace and beauty in this world.  
The whole Takodana sequence apparently reminds me of this scene in "Howl." Rey almost found her happiness arriving Takodana which has beautiful scenery and clean air, and when she was enjoying that moment, Han also offered her a job. It's like she just found light and hope in her life, a new bright stage. Until FO came and messed up the whole planet.

The Girl forgives and saves "The Villain"
In "Howl's Moving Castle", I am just amazed with how FORGIVING Sophie is toward the witch whom turned her into a 90-year-old granny. When another witch turned the Witch of Waste into her real age and she became a harmless granny, Sophie took her in and take care of her like her own grandmother. When the granny witch refused to give her Howl's heart, Sophie felt so desperate and scared of losing Howl but she did not resolve it with any violence, instead she just hugged the granny witch begging her to give her Howl's heart.



I LOLed when a Japanese fan tweeted that this picture reminds him/her of Reylo. In "Spirited Away", No-Face creature is a very intriguing, very scary, very unpredictable creature. It is exactly because he is very unpredictable that he is very scary to me. What exactly does this creature wants from Sen, the young heroine? He offers Sen a pile of gold, but she refused. He offers other people gold, they accepts, and then he devours them. He becomes larger and larger, becomes a hideous creature as he devours more people. Sen offers No-Face a magic dumpling, he eats it and he vomit everything he had eaten. He turned into his original form and started following Sen everywhere she goes, he becomes loyal to Sen.

The Girl saves The Boy & The Boy protects The Girl



San and Ashitaka in "Princess Mononoke." San, the girl, was raised by wolves, she hates human. Ashitaka is the prince of the Emishi tribe. Ashitaka killed a demon but he's infected on the arm by the demon's oil-like disease. When he tried to find a cure for it, he met San and she was going to kill him when Ashitaka half-consciously tells her "You're beautiful" and it made San hesitated. She decided to save his life, instead. Since she saved him (including mouth-to-mouth feeding), Ashitaka becomes very protective of her and a bit possessive too, he insisted the best way for her to come with him and mingle with humans, but at the end he realized she can't live with humans.

Sen and Haku in "Spirited Away." As soon as Sen entered the bizarre magical world, Haku was the only person who genuinely want to help her and this is why Sen was drawn to him immediately though people around him says she should not trust him. Later, we find out Haku turns into a dragon due to a curse and he lost his humanity in this form. Sen had to fight to gain dragon-Haku's trust. At the end, Sen saved his life and he was able to get back his former life.

Sophie and Howl in "Howl's Moving Castle." Just like Haku, Howl is also cursed turning into a certain kind of monster. Sophie doesn't care even if he turns fully into a monster, she tells him she loves him. Sophie saved Howl's life and soul. Howl always protects Sophie too from any kind of harm. Their relationship reminds me so much of Reylo, so I decided to break it down into details.

Sophie and Howl / Rey and Ben Parallel



Age Gap
First of all, just a fun fact from wiki. Sophie is 19 and Howl is between 27-30. This is their age in the book though, might be different in the movie. But the irony is that Howl is too childish for his age, he acts like an adolescent boy and Sophie is too mature for her age, she really acts like a granny even before she was cursed.

Random Sophie, Random Rey
In the world of wizards and magic, Sophie started as a powerless nobody living a mundane life without any excitement. Just as Rey living her scavenging life, without any Force power before she met Kylo. The moment Sophie gets closer to Howl's castle and entered, we see hints that Sophie actually has a power too. In the book, Sophie is a sorceress whom magic power awakened only after she met Howl. In the movie, it's more ambiguous whether she is a full fledged sorceress but she definitely have magic power since she can control Calcifer, the fire demon, and she can break Howl's curse.  
Sophie finds excitement and purpose in life after she met Howl and his company in the castle, just as Rey finds excitement and purpose in life, later after she met Han Solo and after she realized her strength in the Force.

Unpredictable Howl, Unpredictable Kylo
Kylo hides behind a mask. Howl hides himself in the castle and in disguise names. He said his aliases are to keep his freedom. I'm not sure if his parents are wizards as well, but his uncle is a wizard and he built him a small house for him to have his private study alone. Sophie was taken aback "Alone?" and I take this as that little Howl had always been very lonely and spend his time alone a lot. He joined the Royal Sorcerer Academy and he was forced to sign an oath that he will be loyal to the kingdom and obey order from the King. Different than the book, Miyazaki added "war" in the story, war between two kingdoms and Howl admitted that he is scared and running away from any responsibility, spending his time at a dark place that he can only go through from his castle's portal door. He also throws tantrum in a very weird way, one day Sophie cleaned his bathroom and messed up his magic potion, turning his blonde hair into black, he was so angry to Sophie, and then he oozes green slime from his body and calls the Spirit of Darkness, scaring Sophie and she ran outside, leaving the castle for a brief moment.
He made a magic contract with Calcifer, a fire demon. Howl gives him his heart to prolong Calcifer's life while Calcifer boost up his magic power and turning him into a giant bird monster, and he was at the point that he might not be able to turn into a human anymore, if Sophie didn't come into his life.

Sophie gives Howl strength, Rey gives Kylo strength
Madam Suliman, the King's Royal Sorcerer, invited Howl to come and she needs his power for the war. Howl asked Sophie (looking like 90 yrs old) to go in place of him instead, as his mother. Howl also came in diguise. Suliman sees him through in disguise and she knows the 90 yrs old lady is just a young girl in love with Howl, and made action to take control over Howl. Sophie managed to keep Howl away from Suliman's magic power, so he didn't turn fully into the monster form. When they were escaping, Sophie asked him "If you can come by yourself, why would you need me to come here??" and Howl answered "I have the strength to come here, because I'm with you. Suliman terrifies me. You saved me, Sophie," I feel like Howl's sincere answer is the translation of Kylo's true feelings in the Throneroom scene, lol. Didn't Kylo finally have the courage to kill Snoke because Rey was there with him?

It's Too Late, It's Not Too Late
Sophie had a dream that Howl turned fully into a monster. Howl tells her to go away, she says she won't. She wants to help him break the curse. He says "You.. You can't even break your own curse!" Sophie says "I love you!" and he disappeared saying "It's too late"
I was wondering what Rey meant with "It's not too late" before the hand-touch. After watching this Howl scene, I wonder if it meant Rey feel its not too late for him to feel a human touch, to feel human again, since he said himself he is a monster?



"I've Got Something I Want To Protect Now. It's You."
Sophie: Don't go! Let's runaway. Don't fight them, Howl!
Howl: I've had enough of running away. I've got something I want to protect now. It's you.

There isn't anything similar, so far. But maybe just maybe... Ben will say something like this in IX?

"Find me in the future!" , "It's you...!!"
There was a scene where Sophie walked through the castle's portal door and find herself back to the past. She sees child Howl making a pact with the fire demon. She tries to tell him don't do it, but then she falls into a hole of darkness, but before that child Howl sees her before she falls and she screamed, "I know how to break your curse! Find me in the future!!"
What if this is the direction JJ was going for, before? The TFA novel has Kylo saying "It's you...!" and we were thinking, if they have met before in childhood, or if Kylo has seen her before in his dreams or Force visions? Then, another possibility is present Rey back to the past for a moment, through a mystery Force vision or Force bond, and meet young Ben? This part might have been erased completely from the final story for IX, at the end. But who knows...

Love Inspires and Supports All
What I love is that the theme is not "Love Conquers All" like Beauty and The Beast where love was what broken the curse. Love is just a supporting element in "Howl's Moving Castle." I like the fact that Sophie going back and forth in being old and young ever since she entered the castle, and it is clear that the curse was broken not because of her love for Howl, but something else. Some opinions says that Sophie turns young everytime she has full confidence and determination about something. Howl got her heart back also not because of his love for Sophie, but simply because they need a third person to be able to crack open their contract mystery and that third person just happen to be Sophie. In the end, Howl finds courage because he feel the need to protect Sophie now. It's not Sophie who changes him. Sophie also becomes more confident in herself once she knows she is capable of taking control of things in Howl's castle. And I hope Reylo will end like this in IX, they will change not for each other, but for themselves, while being together in the process.
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Re: Reylo in TLJ & Literary Analysis

Post by snufkin on Thu 04 Jan 2018, 10:46 am

@shii405 I enjoyed reading this so much! And the introduction JJ shot for Rey in TFA seems like a pretty obvious callback to Nausicaa
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Re: Reylo in TLJ & Literary Analysis

Post by ReyloSpanishFan on Thu 04 Jan 2018, 6:44 pm

@shii405 wrote:

Thanks to @snufkin, I found out Kathleen Kennedy's great fondness for Studio Ghibli animation movies and its characters, she made her kids watch Ghibli films in its original Japanese audio, and she has produced the US version of "Ponyo" and "Arietty."  And then, I remember the first thought came into my mind when I saw Maz Castle in TFA was that "It looks like a Ghibli castle, and the whole sequence of Takodana reminds me of a Ghibli scene..." I did not think of it any further of the reason why it reminded me of Ghibli, thinking it was just a mere coincidence. And then I found a Japanese interview of JJ Abrams saying "I am a big fan of Miyazaki's works!" (Miyazaki Hayao is the main creator/director of Ghibli films)... OHHHH, now it makes great sense! Also, maybe its better to take note that Daisy Ridley said in an interview for her dubbing work in "Only Yesterday" a Ghibli film, that the first Ghibli film she fell in love with is, "Howl's Moving Castle."

I think it's not a secret where K2SO was inspired from? LOL. Laputa, anyone?



I am a huge fan of Ghibli films myself, I've seen almost all of of them, so I decided to look into Ghibli films once again and make comparisons with TFA & TLJ mainly Reylo's relationship. I don't know if this analysis can be useful at all, but since KK and JJ (and Daisy) loves Ghibli films, we might be able to see the direction they are going, just in case they are inspired by Ghibli films.

Almost in every Miyazaki works there are elements of adventure, castles and airplanes. Digging deeper, his films always has a strong young heroine, a villain who doesn't stay a villain, and strange creatures, as well. The following are some of the recurring themes in Ghibli films that are relevant to TFA and TLJ.



Strong young heroines
Miyazaki Hayao loves his female heroes. Like, 80% of the main characters of his works are female. His fondness over strong female characters stood out the most in the Nausicaa of the Valley of the Wind. In this film, the hero is a princess, the villain is a princess, the one who sees the prophecy is an old granny, and there is another pivotal female character. Somehow it reminds me of Rey, Leia, Holdo and Rose's pivotal roles in TLJ. By the way, in most of the cases, the young heroines are strong as in mentally strong. They somehow manage to fight superior physical power with their golden hearts.

A villain who doesn't stay a villain
In "Castle in the Sky", the pirates are portrayed as the bad guys in the beginning but then as Sheeta and Pazu (the main heroes of the story, a young girl and a young boy) get to know them through an adventure, they are not really that bad. The Witch of Waste in "Howl's Moving Castle" who cursed the heroine, Sophie, into a 90 years old woman and whom Sophie hated so much in the beginning, ended up as a family member of Howl and Sophie's at the end of the movie, and I find that really amusing.

Peaceful, Beautiful Scenery destroyed by War



Some of Miyazaki's works contains criticism toward the war. He expressed his hate toward the Iraq war through a scene in "Howl's Moving Castle" where Howl created a beautiful field of flowers as a present for Sophie, Sophie was so happy, and in a romantic moment when they almost confessed their feelings for each other, an air raid came destroying the flower field, as to show how the war can destroy any peace and beauty in this world.  
The whole Takodana sequence apparently reminds me of this scene in "Howl." Rey almost found her happiness arriving Takodana which has beautiful scenery and clean air, and when she was enjoying that moment, Han also offered her a job. It's like she just found light and hope in her life, a new bright stage. Until FO came and messed up the whole planet.

The Girl forgives and saves "The Villain"
In "Howl's Moving Castle", I am just amazed with how FORGIVING Sophie is toward the witch whom turned her into a 90-year-old granny. When another witch turned the Witch of Waste into her real age and she became a harmless granny, Sophie took her in and take care of her like her own grandmother. When the granny witch refused to give her Howl's heart, Sophie felt so desperate and scared of losing Howl but she did not resolve it with any violence, instead she just hugged the granny witch begging her to give her Howl's heart.



I LOLed when a Japanese fan tweeted that this picture reminds him/her of Reylo. In "Spirited Away", No-Face creature is a very intriguing, very scary, very unpredictable creature. It is exactly because he is very unpredictable that he is very scary to me. What exactly does this creature wants from Sen, the young heroine? He offers Sen a pile of gold, but she refused. He offers other people gold, they accepts, and then he devours them. He becomes larger and larger, becomes a hideous creature as he devours more people. Sen offers No-Face a magic dumpling, he eats it and he vomit everything he had eaten. He turned into his original form and started following Sen everywhere she goes, he becomes loyal to Sen.

The Girl saves The Boy & The Boy protects The Girl



San and Ashitaka in "Princess Mononoke." San, the girl, was raised by wolves, she hates human. Ashitaka is the prince of the Emishi tribe. Ashitaka killed a demon but he's infected on the arm by the demon's oil-like disease. When he tried to find a cure for it, he met San and she was going to kill him when Ashitaka half-consciously tells her "You're beautiful" and it made San hesitated. She decided to save his life, instead. Since she saved him (including mouth-to-mouth feeding), Ashitaka becomes very protective of her and a bit possessive too, he insisted the best way for her to come with him and mingle with humans, but at the end he realized she can't live with humans.

Sen and Haku in "Spirited Away." As soon as Sen entered the bizarre magical world, Haku was the only person who genuinely want to help her and this is why Sen was drawn to him immediately though people around him says she should not trust him. Later, we find out Haku turns into a dragon due to a curse and he lost his humanity in this form. Sen had to fight to gain dragon-Haku's trust. At the end, Sen saved his life and he was able to get back his former life.

Sophie and Howl in "Howl's Moving Castle." Just like Haku, Howl is also cursed turning into a certain kind of monster. Sophie doesn't care even if he turns fully into a monster, she tells him she loves him. Sophie saved Howl's life and soul. Howl always protects Sophie too from any kind of harm. Their relationship reminds me so much of Reylo, so I decided to break it down into details.

Sophie and Howl / Rey and Ben Parallel



Age Gap
First of all, just a fun fact from wiki. Sophie is 19 and Howl is between 27-30. This is their age in the book though, might be different in the movie. But the irony is that Howl is too childish for his age, he acts like an adolescent boy and Sophie is too mature for her age, she really acts like a granny even before she was cursed.

Random Sophie, Random Rey
In the world of wizards and magic, Sophie started as a powerless nobody living a mundane life without any excitement. Just as Rey living her scavenging life, without any Force power before she met Kylo. The moment Sophie gets closer to Howl's castle and entered, we see hints that Sophie actually has a power too. In the book, Sophie is a sorceress whom magic power awakened only after she met Howl. In the movie, it's more ambiguous whether she is a full fledged sorceress but she definitely have magic power since she can control Calcifer, the fire demon, and she can break Howl's curse.  
Sophie finds excitement and purpose in life after she met Howl and his company in the castle, just as Rey finds excitement and purpose in life, later after she met Han Solo and after she realized her strength in the Force.

Unpredictable Howl, Unpredictable Kylo
Kylo hides behind a mask. Howl hides himself in the castle and in disguise names. He said his aliases are to keep his freedom. I'm not sure if his parents are wizards as well, but his uncle is a wizard and he built him a small house for him to have his private study alone. Sophie was taken aback "Alone?" and I take this as that little Howl had always been very lonely and spend his time alone a lot. He joined the Royal Sorcerer Academy and he was forced to sign an oath that he will be loyal to the kingdom and obey order from the King. Different than the book, Miyazaki added "war" in the story, war between two kingdoms and Howl admitted that he is scared and running away from any responsibility, spending his time at a dark place that he can only go through from his castle's portal door. He also throws tantrum in a very weird way, one day Sophie cleaned his bathroom and messed up his magic potion, turning his blonde hair into black, he was so angry to Sophie, and then he oozes green slime from his body and calls the Spirit of Darkness, scaring Sophie and she ran outside, leaving the castle for a brief moment.
He made a magic contract with Calcifer, a fire demon. Howl gives him his heart to prolong Calcifer's life while Calcifer boost up his magic power and turning him into a giant bird monster, and he was at the point that he might not be able to turn into a human anymore, if Sophie didn't come into his life.

Sophie gives Howl strength, Rey gives Kylo strength
Madam Suliman, the King's Royal Sorcerer, invited Howl to come and she needs his power for the war. Howl asked Sophie (looking like 90 yrs old) to go in place of him instead, as his mother. Howl also came in diguise. Suliman sees him through in disguise and she knows the 90 yrs old lady is just a young girl in love with Howl, and made action to take control over Howl. Sophie managed to keep Howl away from Suliman's magic power, so he didn't turn fully into the monster form. When they were escaping, Sophie asked him "If you can come by yourself, why would you need me to come here??" and Howl answered "I have the strength to come here, because I'm with you. Suliman terrifies me. You saved me, Sophie," I feel like Howl's sincere answer is the translation of Kylo's true feelings in the Throneroom scene, lol. Didn't Kylo finally have the courage to kill Snoke because Rey was there with him?

It's Too Late, It's Not Too Late
Sophie had a dream that Howl turned fully into a monster. Howl tells her to go away, she says she won't. She wants to help him break the curse. He says "You.. You can't even break your own curse!" Sophie says "I love you!" and he disappeared saying "It's too late"
I was wondering what Rey meant with "It's not too late" before the hand-touch. After watching this Howl scene, I wonder if it meant Rey feel its not too late for him to feel a human touch, to feel human again, since he said himself he is a monster?



"I've Got Something I Want To Protect Now. It's You."
Sophie: Don't go! Let's runaway. Don't fight them, Howl!
Howl: I've had enough of running away. I've got something I want to protect now. It's you.

There isn't anything similar, so far. But maybe just maybe... Ben will say something like this in IX?

"Find me in the future!" , "It's you...!!"
There was a scene where Sophie walked through the castle's portal door and find herself back to the past. She sees child Howl making a pact with the fire demon. She tries to tell him don't do it, but then she falls into a hole of darkness, but before that child Howl sees her before she falls and she screamed, "I know how to break your curse! Find me in the future!!"
What if this is the direction JJ was going for, before? The TFA novel has Kylo saying "It's you...!" and we were thinking, if they have met before in childhood, or if Kylo has seen her before in his dreams or Force visions? Then, another possibility is present Rey back to the past for a moment, through a mystery Force vision or Force bond, and meet young Ben? This part might have been erased completely from the final story for IX, at the end. But who knows...

Love Inspires and Supports All
What I love is that the theme is not "Love Conquers All" like Beauty and The Beast where love was what broken the curse. Love is just a supporting element in "Howl's Moving Castle." I like the fact that Sophie going back and forth in being old and young ever since she entered the castle, and it is clear that the curse was broken not because of her love for Howl, but something else. Some opinions says that Sophie turns young everytime she has full confidence and determination about something. Howl got her heart back also not because of his love for Sophie, but simply because they need a third person to be able to crack open their contract mystery and that third person just happen to be Sophie. In the end, Howl finds courage because he feel the need to protect Sophie now. It's not Sophie who changes him. Sophie also becomes more confident in herself once she knows she is capable of taking control of things in Howl's castle. And I hope Reylo will end like this in IX, they will change not for each other, but for themselves, while being together in the process.
@shii405

Again, I LOVE your post, and Howl´s Moving Castle is my favourite Miyazaki movie to date =__)
Recently, I have been reading another manga series titled "Tokyo Ghoul: Re". It is a seinen manga, so it contains explicit violence and sexuality, BUT the introspection of the characters is one of its virtues. One of them is called Tooru Mutsuki, a former victim of abuse who, in a fit of rage, killed his parents (his father was the one who abused him) and began his career as an investigator of ghouls (the "ghouls" are something like vampires mixed with zombies, more or less). There he knows inspector Haise Sasaki and another colleagues as Kuki Urie. At the beginning, Urie and him are not in the best terms, cause the first is moody and brooding and only thinks about promotion and revenge for something that happened with his father in the past. However, it changes as time passes and they work together in missions, where Urie ends discovering the biggest secret of Mutsuki (that he is in fact a she) and he realizes that he is not alone in part because of him.




One ghoul called Torso gets obsessed with Mutsuki and he kidnaps him, abusing her (yeah, Torso discovers that, too) again, worsening Mutsuki´s state of mind and killing Torso. At this point, Mutsuki looses it and he begins to act erratically, killing inocent people and threatening a pregnant Touka, the beloved of Sasaki/Kaneki. In the most recent chapters, Urie has reached Mutsuki and they are fighting (Mutsuki even wants him to kill her), but Urie rejects and, I believe, is going to confess his true feelings to her in the next chapter (we will see...).

A lot of Tokyo Ghouls fans believe that, at this point, Mutsuki is irredeemable, and yeah, he has done REALLY bad things, but at the same time I think she is a victim of abuse since her childhood and she has had some terrible experiences. Urie, on the other hand, is actually a very calm, composed guy, who has learnt (in part thanks to Mutsuki) that he is not really alone since the departure of his father. His affection for Mutsuki grew because of that and I think he really REALLY cares about him/her (in fact, I think he loves her). They remember me a lot to Reylo, but with the gender in reverse, and I hope Mutsuki is going to find some peace, after all.

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Re: Reylo in TLJ & Literary Analysis

Post by Atenais on Thu 04 Jan 2018, 9:13 pm

I don't really know where to post these gorgeous fanarts, but since we agree that TLJ has some influence from P&P, I think it's appropriate to share these pics, where the characters are portrayed in Regency style.






Credit: therealmcgee
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Re: Reylo in TLJ & Literary Analysis

Post by SheLitAFire on Thu 04 Jan 2018, 9:22 pm

The one of Hux gives me life. ^

@Nite0wl29

Kylo: "but Hux has a cat!"
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Re: Reylo in TLJ & Literary Analysis

Post by thescavenger on Fri 05 Jan 2018, 4:05 am

@Atenais wrote:I don't really know where to post these gorgeous fanarts, but since we agree that TLJ has some influence from P&P, I think it's appropriate to share these pics, where the characters are portrayed in Regency style.






Credit: therealmcgee
@Atenais

These are stunning.

Poe is definitely a Mr. Wickham.
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Re: Reylo in TLJ & Literary Analysis

Post by Irina de France on Fri 05 Jan 2018, 8:50 am

@thescavenger wrote:
@Atenais wrote:I don't really know where to post these gorgeous fanarts, but since we agree that TLJ has some influence from P&P, I think it's appropriate to share these pics, where the characters are portrayed in Regency style.






Credit: therealmcgee
@Atenais

These are stunning.

Poe is definitely a Mr. Wickham.
@thescavenger

I love these to bits as well. I hope we'll get a Rose one one of these days.
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Re: Reylo in TLJ & Literary Analysis

Post by MrsWindu on Fri 05 Jan 2018, 2:34 pm

@shii405

Loved reading your Ghibli thoughts

I love Howl's Moving Castle too and watched it over the hols with the kids. The  And now that you have bought up the possible inspiration I wanted to add a few thoughts I had that in relation to Kylo and Rey.

When Sophie first meets Howl to rescue her from the soldiers he calls her 'sweetheart' and uses what my kids thought looked like Jedi mind tricks, and also the way he moves his fingers. The deal Howl struck with Calcifer gave him access to his power. In return, Calcifer took possession of Howl's heart. Towards the end, Califer mentions 'It's still the heart of a child'. My interpretation was always Sophie broke their deal by giving Howl back his heart and I assume he would have lost much of his magical abilities had Califer not decided to stay of his own accord. I'm wondering if this sort of scenario could happen in IX with Kylo losing most of his Force abilities in order to stay alive? Who knows.

One last thing was when Sophie sees a snippet of Howl's past...he has a calligraphy set too!

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Re: Reylo in TLJ & Literary Analysis

Post by shii405 on Fri 05 Jan 2018, 5:11 pm

@MrsWindu wrote:@shii405

Loved reading your Ghibli thoughts

I love Howl's Moving Castle too and watched it over the hols with the kids. The  And now that you have bought up the possible inspiration I wanted to add a few thoughts I had that in relation to Kylo and Rey.

When Sophie first meets Howl to rescue her from the soldiers he calls her 'sweetheart' and uses what my kids thought looked like Jedi mind tricks, and also the way he moves his fingers. The deal Howl struck with Calcifer gave him access to his power. In return, Calcifer took possession of Howl's heart. Towards the end, Califer mentions 'It's still the heart of a child'. My interpretation was always Sophie broke their deal by giving Howl back his heart and I assume he would have lost much of his magical abilities had Califer not decided to stay of his own accord. I'm wondering if this sort of scenario could happen in IX with Kylo losing most of his Force abilities in order to stay alive? Who knows.

One last thing was when Sophie sees a snippet of Howl's past...he has a calligraphy set too!

@MrsWindu

I noticed the calligraphy set too! And when Howl said his uncle, a wizard built this small house for him for his private study, it gives me the impression that Howl's uncle isolated him from other kids/people.

Then, I wonder (aside from the coincidence of howl-uncle, kylo-uncle similarities!) if Luke isolated Ben from the other kids too, back then?

We will never know if Howl still have magic power or not by the end of the movie, but the book has 2 more books as sequel and Howl, after married to Sophie, is still very much a powerful wizard.
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Re: Reylo in TLJ & Literary Analysis

Post by Kylo Rey on Sat 06 Jan 2018, 11:07 am

The P&P/Wuthering Heights/Jane Eyre influence is obvious, but I also believe you can apply Russian Literature too. I drew this comparison before in one of my previous posts, but here is a great Reddit post comparing Kylo to one of my favourite characters ever: Rodion Romanovich Raskolnikov from Crime and Punishment

Crime and Punishment and Kylo Ren's Throne Room Rant

When I first saw The Force Awakens, Ben Solo / Kylo Ren and his arc immediately reminded me of Rodion Raskolnikov in Fyodor Dostoevsky's Crime and Punishment. Both characters are shown to be conflicted and behave erratically, have something of a split personality, and want to emulate historical overlords. They commit murder in order to further their self-perception of specialness in their chosen worldview (although Raskolnikov did not have any Snoke figure pressuring him to do it, and was not related to his victim). To their dismay, the act of murder does not strengthen them, but weakens them like it would for any non-psychopathic person. Their actions continue to haunt them, which of course continued into The Last Jedi.

I assumed Rey would end up being his long-lost sister or cousin, so I was surprised with the direction they took with their interactions in TLJ. There are loose similarities between the way Ben confides in Rey and the way Rodion confides in Sonia. Rey and Sonia had a rough life and had to work a stigmatized low-class job (scavenging and prostitution, respectively) while young due to the neglect of awful parents who prioritize drinking money over taking care of their kids. I went back and started re-reading some of their interactions and started geeking out over a specific scene in Part 4, Chapter 4 that I had forgotten about. Fans have already posted parallels between the controversial "You're nothing, but not to me, join me please" speech and similar proposal fails in Jane Eyre and Pride and Prejudice. Well here's another one, and I think it sheds light on what Kylo Ren was thinking at the time.

First off, I have a mundane interpretation of what Ben claimed he saw in the elevator scene. Unlike Rey, he does not specifically say he saw the future and there is no indication that his powers include future visions. I believe his exact dialogue is: "I saw something too. Because of what I saw, I know when the moment comes, you'll be the one to turn. You'll stand with me. Rey, I saw who your parents are." Basically, he knows Rey is in denial and can't fathom that she would stay with the light side when she faced the truth.

This is the exact mindset with how Rodion confronts Sonia. From the translation that can be found on Project Gutenberg:

"...you have destroyed and betrayed yourself for nothing. Isn’t that fearful? Isn’t it fearful that you are living in this filth which you loathe so, and at the same time you know yourself (you’ve only to open your eyes) that you are not helping anyone by it, not saving anyone from anything? Tell me," he went on almost in a frenzy, "how this shame and degradation can exist in you side by side with other, opposite, holy feelings?"

Compare to the TLJ dialogue:

BEN: (getting agitated) "No, no. You're still holding on! Let go! Do you want to know the truth about your parents? Or have you always known? And you've just hidden it away. You know the truth. Say it. Say it."

REY: "They were nobody."

BEN: "They were filthy junk traders who sold you off for drinking money. They're dead in a paupers' grave in the Jakku desert. You have no place in this story. You come from nothing. You're nothing."

In Crime and Punishment, Rodion met Sonia to begin with because he witnessed her father essentially drink himself to death, leaving their family in an even more dire position. He assumed only delusion and denial could make her hold on to her faith, and -- knowing her life experiences have been objectively worse than his -- he is dumbfounded that her awareness doesn't bring her to despair, insanity, or the dark side:

But he saw how monstrously the thought of her disgraceful, shameful position was torturing her and had long tortured her. ... "There are three ways before her," he thought, "the canal, the madhouse, or... at last to sink into depravity which obscures the mind and turns the heart to stone." The last idea was the most revolting, but he was a sceptic, he was young, abstract, and therefore cruel, and so he could not help believing that the last end was the most likely.

Rodion is into Sonia and wants to start over and have her join him, but like Kylo he is being impulsive and doesn't appear to have a specific plan:

"I have only you now," he added. "Let us go together.... I’ve come to you, we are both accursed, let us go our way together!"

His eyes glittered "as though he were mad," Sonia thought, in her turn.

"Go where?" she asked in alarm and she involuntarily stepped back.

"How do I know? I only know it’s the same road, I know that and nothing more. It’s the same goal!"

She looked at him and understood nothing. She knew only that he was terribly, infinitely unhappy.

"No one of them will understand, if you tell them, but I have understood. I need you, that is why I have come to you."

"I don’t understand," whispered Sonia.

"You’ll understand later. Haven’t you done the same? You, too, have transgressed... have had the strength to transgress. You have laid hands on yourself, you have destroyed a life... your own (it’s all the same!). You might have lived in spirit and understanding, but you’ll end in the Hay Market.... But you won’t be able to stand it, and if you remain alone you’ll go out of your mind like me. You are like a mad creature already. So we must go together on the same road! Let us go! ... Freedom and power, and above all, power! Over all trembling creation and all the ant-heap!"

Again, similar to Kylo Ren's thought process:

"It's time to let old things die. Snoke, Skywalker. The Sith, the Jedi, the Rebels, let it all die. Rey. I want you to join me. We can rule together and bring a new order to the galaxy."

and then

"You're nothing, but not to me. Join me. Please."

In the BBC adaptation of Crime and Punishment, Part 2 opens with a voiceover of Rodion Raskolnikov's thoughts:

"Great men smash laws, smash old ways in order to create new ones. Great men are not afraid to be criminals."

About 21.5 minutes in, it shows a shortened version of the scene with the "join me for nothing specific" part cut out. He's wearing something close to black and she's wearing off-white.

In a crucial part of this chapter, between the "nothing" rant and the "join me" rant, Rodion asks Sonia to read him the specific Bible passage where Jesus brings the dead man Lazarus back to life. The foreshadowing is intentional in Crime and Punishment, and I'm hoping Episode IX will also have Ben Solo metaphorically brought back from the dead.

https://www.reddit.com/r/starwarsspeculation/comments/7od72v/crime_and_punishment_and_kylo_rens_throne_room/
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Re: Reylo in TLJ & Literary Analysis

Post by lauvamp on Tue 09 Jan 2018, 6:01 pm

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Re: Reylo in TLJ & Literary Analysis

Post by rey09 on Tue 09 Jan 2018, 6:49 pm

@lauvamp

YASS. Jane Eyre in Space!!! Jane Eyre is my favorite classic romance *ever*, so taking it up a notch in the SW realm is just beyond epic!!
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