Reylo in TLJ & Literary Analysis

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Re: Reylo in TLJ & Literary Analysis

Post by lauvamp on Tue 09 Jan 2018, 7:01 pm

@rey09

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Re: Reylo in TLJ & Literary Analysis

Post by britomartis on Sat 13 Jan 2018, 5:11 am

@Kylo Rey Thank you for this analysis. Comparing Kylo Ren and Raskolnikov allows insight into how and why Kylo Ren set himself on his path. The two of them consciously damn themselves (they both commit terrible crimes knowing they are evil but also believing them necessary) out of a desperate need to commit to a nihilistic ideology which itself is born out of a loss on both their parts of their previous identities and roles in the world/galaxy. Through Sonia's questioning of him Raskalnikov was forced to face the truth of what he had done and seek redemption. I don't think Rey will have such a guiding angel role for Kylo Ren but she has been and will be a catalyst for his final development. So thank you for your post. Both characters typify how feelings of moral/intellectual abandonment, suffering, confusion and lack of direction and a strong need to overcome them can lead people down mistaken paths.

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Re: Reylo in TLJ & Literary Analysis

Post by orangedelamer on Sat 13 Jan 2018, 5:51 am

Have you seen this video? It is more about art than litterature but they talk about the romantic era, adam and eve, Pride and Prejudice, Jane Eyre :




I am a big fan of Jane Eyre. I know it has been mentioned by a lot of Reylo fans and in this forum. But I wanted to insist that Kylo and Rey's relationship is very similar to Rochester and Jane's. I am fascinating about these two relationships because they are about two misfits, who had very painful experiences in their life and who can relate to each other more than they could with anyone else. Personally, it affects me very much because I can very much relate to the fact of longing for meeting someone I can have a deep connection with.






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Re: Reylo in TLJ & Literary Analysis

Post by Good-olio Raeh on Fri 16 Mar 2018, 12:35 pm

I have been in discussion regarding PRide and Prejudice and King Athur legends on other threads because they all connect!  One thought just leads to another...they alll connect.  So this is a bliblical oberservation in terms of a reading of PRide and PRejudice. We know that Elizabeth’s made DArcy a man and took him for entilement to the true gentlemen by the very fact that his arrogant proposal reveal that he wasn’t the gentlemen he thought he was. I was thinking this in terms of the book of Ruth in the Bible. Another story of a lesser woman who gathers the leftovers (scavenger) of the wheat of the fields. You might even say the great mental exchange and bridge of the interrogation scene that so many are finding “dumb.” Oh, please....people. Only boys mock romance and intimacy. They just want sex and cookies. Boaz was Ruth’s provider, and she had to go to him because she needed a provider. Kylo has been asking to train Rey from the beginning, and because she has severed the connection, she has severed some of her power. I think part of the story line will be Rey coming to Kylo’s feet, and then Kylo become her Boaz, her kinsmen redeemer (title of my family becomes your family becomes my family) and blood avenger (I will fight and protect you and your family. I will avenge their blood) aka the knights of Ren, the vision of the future. We will turn and stand with each other. Jane was R.’s Boaz’s. It is in this forging and reforging of a house, a tree, a line, etc....
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Re: Reylo in TLJ & Literary Analysis

Post by SheLitAFire on Fri 16 Mar 2018, 3:04 pm

@Good-olio Raeh

Ohhhhhh I love the Boaz and Ruth analogy. I think that's very fitting! Rey & Ruth have this same kind of patient approach, which is perfect for someone who is of the brooding type.
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Re: Reylo in TLJ & Literary Analysis

Post by Good-olio Raeh on Fri 16 Mar 2018, 4:56 pm

@SheLitAFire Brings on a whole new Reylo meaning to bringing in the sheaves...bringing the new Kingdom. Wink
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Re: Reylo in TLJ & Literary Analysis

Post by tukicarreno on Fri 16 Mar 2018, 9:07 pm

@thescavenger wrote:
@rey09 wrote:
@rey09

You know this was only the first proposal - middle of the book. I know what I'm waiting for in 9.

Waiting for Kylo to get Lydia/Wickham married, Jane and Bingley together, and Rey finding out what he did for her.
@thescavenger

That is exactly what I am waiting for in IX. To me Kylo is totally Mr Darcy and Rey is Lizzie and all the angst in their scenes together! I love you
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Re: Reylo in TLJ & Literary Analysis

Post by special_cases on Fri 16 Mar 2018, 11:13 pm

So I have been thinking a lot about slightly unusual structure for ST because Rey is protag and Kylo is the main character - or vice versa, it really doesn't matter. And ST being an epic but nuanced love story but with complicated themes around it and around Rey's and Kylo's coming of age stories.

The best example I can think about when it comes to such structure for love story is Bulgakov's Master and Margarita. Hear me out, I know that themes seem very different, but the way story works for their personal arcs is quite similar. In the heart of story is Margarita's journey - to defeat injustice, find freedom for herself and freedom for Master.




Master's tragedy and her love for him becomes a main catalyst for her actions. She was searching for justice and freedom before meeting him but made a deal with Satan only for Master. And we see Master's story, which is much bigger that it seems and connected to ancient times, through her eyes.

Master doesn't have coming of age element in his story but Margarita is going through sexual awakening and becomes free and strong after her journey to Hell.



Master plays more passive role, when we meet him he is already the victim, destroyed by injustice because of his talents. And Margarita is a fighter who won't let cruelty win.

Both Master and Margarita are extremely lonely, wronged by society and this is the reason they fell in love immediately.



"She had a look of suffering and I was struck less by her beauty than by the extraordinary loneliness in her eyes."


Funny that in MaM it is Satan who is able to bring them together but he is doing this because he believes in true love. Mirror and contrast to Snoke\Snake.

Of course, themes are very different and Master and Margarita are fighting an outside world, not an inner world as it happens with Ben. I mean, Bulgakov wrote it as a hate letter to Stalin but it became much more than this. He gave power to Margarita, to lonely woman, - to save Master, avenge him and find new beginning for herself and her lover.



And in the end the main theme of MaM is closer to this:

There are no evil people in the world, only unhappiness disguised as evil.


I see MaM as an example of unusual structure for love story because it's not central to narrative but all subplots and themes of the past\present come together when Master and Margarita find resolution for their personal story and finally can be together.



I'm sorry that this is definitely not in a direct parallel with Rey and Kylo story, just some elements are similar. I was thinking about it for a long time after TLJ and decided to share.


Last edited by special_cases on Fri 16 Mar 2018, 11:16 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Reylo in TLJ & Literary Analysis

Post by DeeBee on Fri 16 Mar 2018, 11:14 pm

@tukicarreno wrote:
@thescavenger wrote:
@rey09 wrote:
@rey09

You know this was only the first proposal - middle of the book. I know what I'm waiting for in 9.

Waiting for Kylo to get Lydia/Wickham married, Jane and Bingley together, and Rey finding out what he did for her.
@thescavenger

That is exactly what  I am waiting for in IX. To me Kylo is totally Mr Darcy and Rey is Lizzie and all the angst in their scenes together! I love you
@tukicarreno

Don't you just love it that TLJ headed in this direction? it's so utterly fabulous!
For me, I don't see 'join me' as the same as a marriage proposal - but it is a parallel to P&P and the tone deaf, oh so wrong proposal of Mr Darcy!

I noticed in the empire podcast where RJ spoke of the throne room - he called the whole 'join me' not a proposal.. he called it an 'appeal' - I think this is super interesting.. For me, I find 'proposal' is a step further than where the movie went, YMMV maybe depending on how you view use of the word 'proposal' as opposed to 'appeal'. Appeal is less of a declaration for me that a proposal. Us all being reylos we are inclined to already be down that path because we believe this is where the story is headed. I've pulled myself back a bit in my thinking here... and I'm all for happily ever after here! The offer was very significant and said much, but at the same time - it was not a proposal of marriage, nor an explicit declaration of love. It was genuine, raw, emotional and a massive step for Kylo/Ben! but, we are not quite there yet - IMHO of course! I bet I'm in the minority here, I'm thinking we don't get an actual proposal until IX. But I think the P&P comparison still works regardless of the variation.
Yes! bring on the secretly helping Rey for the sake of Rey - or as Darcy would say it was because he thought only of Rey. Awhhhhh...

Full RJ quote on the 'Appeal' :
Full RJ quote:
"To write these characters, I always have to get inside their heads. I tend to step inside and have the most generous reading of any character's motivation possible," says Johnson. "I'll say this – the moment when Kylo makes his appeal for her to join him, and Adam captured it so well in his little please, it was important to me that it wasn't a chess game, it wasn't just a manipulation. It's unhealthy, and there's much that is awful about the way that he is manipulative. From his point of view, it's a very naked, open, emotional appeal. It's his version of, 'I'm just a girl standing in front of a guy'... The same way as when he tells his version of the story with Luke, that's his experience of his moment.”
Source: https://www.empireonline.com/movies/features/star-wars-last-jedi-10-revelations-director-rian-johnson/
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Re: Reylo in TLJ & Literary Analysis

Post by Good-olio Raeh on Fri 23 Mar 2018, 9:07 am

I had a thought. I have always been drawn to the Kylo's red saber with the hilt...well, because I love the knightly code, Arthurian legends, and English history.  And this inspired this literary, historical,mythic, and religious icon of the cross of St. George.

It is the red cross of St. George (like Kylo's saber) who killed the snake dragon, who snake has hypnotic powers (Snoke "snake), in order to free the maiden and her country. And then marries her.... The red cross on the white flag, the cross of England, the cross of St. George and the whole idea of the knight in Medieval Romance.    

History and Mythos of St. George in regards to the symbol of the red cross on white: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iLjyPqYfZxQ
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Re: Reylo in TLJ & Literary Analysis

Post by Dar-ren19 on Fri 23 Mar 2018, 5:00 pm

@DeeBee wrote:
@tukicarreno wrote:
@thescavenger wrote:
@rey09 wrote:
@rey09

You know this was only the first proposal - middle of the book. I know what I'm waiting for in 9.

Waiting for Kylo to get Lydia/Wickham married, Jane and Bingley together, and Rey finding out what he did for her.
@thescavenger

That is exactly what  I am waiting for in IX. To me Kylo is totally Mr Darcy and Rey is Lizzie and all the angst in their scenes together! I love you
@tukicarreno

Don't you just love it that TLJ headed in this direction? it's so utterly fabulous!
For me, I don't see 'join me' as the same as a marriage proposal - but it is a parallel to P&P and the tone deaf, oh so wrong proposal of Mr Darcy!

I noticed in the empire podcast where RJ spoke of the throne room - he called the whole 'join me' not a proposal.. he called it an 'appeal' - I think this is super interesting.. For me, I find 'proposal' is a step further than where the movie went, YMMV maybe depending on how you view use of the word 'proposal' as opposed to 'appeal'. Appeal is less of a declaration for me that a proposal. Us all being reylos we are inclined to already be down that path because we believe this is where the story is headed. I've pulled myself back a bit in my thinking here... and I'm all for happily ever after here! The offer was very significant and said much, but at the same time - it was not a proposal of marriage, nor an explicit declaration of love. It was genuine, raw, emotional and a massive step for Kylo/Ben! but, we are not quite there yet - IMHO of course! I bet I'm in the minority here, I'm thinking we don't get an actual proposal until IX. But I think the P&P comparison still works regardless of the variation.
Yes! bring on the secretly helping Rey for the sake of Rey - or as Darcy would say it was because he thought only of Rey. Awhhhhh...

Full RJ quote on the 'Appeal' :
Full RJ quote:
"To write these characters, I always have to get inside their heads. I tend to step inside and have the most generous reading of any character's motivation possible," says Johnson. "I'll say this – the moment when Kylo makes his appeal for her to join him, and Adam captured it so well in his little please, it was important to me that it wasn't a chess game, it wasn't just a manipulation. It's unhealthy, and there's much that is awful about the way that he is manipulative. From his point of view, it's a very naked, open, emotional appeal. It's his version of, 'I'm just a girl standing in front of a guy'... The same way as when he tells his version of the story with Luke, that's his experience of his moment.”
Source: https://www.empireonline.com/movies/features/star-wars-last-jedi-10-revelations-director-rian-johnson/
@DeeBee

I don’t understand what he’s saying here. It seems to me he’s contradicting himself?

“...it was important to me that it wasn't a chess game, it wasn't just a manipulation. It's unhealthy, and there's much that is awful about the way that he is manipulative.”

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Re: Reylo in TLJ & Literary Analysis

Post by Good-olio Raeh on Fri 23 Mar 2018, 5:22 pm

How I interpreted this is Johnson saying Kylo heart is not manipulative here. He truly wants Rey to rule with him, to be with him. He is not trying to trick her. However, he is using unfair, toxic leverage to begin with; in expressing love you never start by insulting the one you love. This is similar to how Darcy first proposes to Elizabeth telling her that he struggled to love her, that he loves her despite himself, that there is so much wrong with her and her family....that if she married him, HE would be doing her a favor, because she and her family are so beneath him.

Darcy and Kylo mean to speak, to communicate that these social truths of Rey's "inferiority" of status doesn't quench their admiration and love, that they love these woman so much that the social constraints and barriers mean nothing to them, that they have mounted over such restrictions in ardency for the connection. They are not trying to insult. They are trying to proclaim that I love you DESPITE THESE THINGS. They see it NO LONGER as a boundary to expressing it.

But in the terms of love to first trash the one you love and then speak of romance, it feel manipulative to the listener; it closes their ears because of the insult and infliction it causes. The audience first heard Ren speak one insult after an insult to Rey, and they become more upset at Kylo for her...that they don't hear the switch of meaning, ("not to me," and "please") that both these entitled men are essentially saying, 'YOU MEAN EVERYTHING TO ME. Please, join me and end my misery of our parting." Essentially, they are using social restrictions to break down the woman, so they can elevate themselves and they woman will see them as a superior match...like I must say yes, now, because this man who is so above me, that has this lineage, he chose me, and I am a nobody...that's the manipulation.

Darcy comes back and tells Elizabeth. YOU made me a better man. And I believe Ben will say the same to Rey, and the next proposal will be, "I need you..." not "you need me."

I don’t understand what he’s saying here. It seems to me he’s contradicting himself?

“...it was important to me that it wasn't a chess game, it wasn't just a manipulation. It's unhealthy, and there's much that is awful about the way that he is manipulative.”

[/quote]
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Re: Reylo in TLJ & Literary Analysis

Post by ZioRen on Fri 23 Mar 2018, 5:25 pm

I always saw it as what Kylo is saying is inherently manipulative because it's lowering Rey's confidence and preying on her biggest weakness, but it's not Kylo's intention and is not what he is actively trying to do in that moment. He sees it as a raw, true, emotional appeal and just telling her the truth, but he's still in a bad place mentally and is saying it in a horrible way without realizing it. It's an extension of Kylo being stuck in a toxic place and worldview in general, for himself and those around him, but not letting himself acknowledge that yet even if he knows it deep down.
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Re: Reylo in TLJ & Literary Analysis

Post by Teo oswald on Fri 23 Mar 2018, 5:31 pm

Rey has made the complete tour of the Skywalker / Solo family
first Han

  then Leia

then Luke

and finally face to face with him


certainly they would approve of their future union Smile
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Re: Reylo in TLJ & Literary Analysis

Post by DeeBee on Sat 24 Mar 2018, 9:16 pm

@Dar-ren19 -Hello! sorry for my delay in responding...
@Dar-ren19 wrote:
@DeeBee
I don’t understand what he’s saying here. It seems to me he’s contradicting himself?
“...it was important to me that it wasn't a chess game, it wasn't just a manipulation. It's unhealthy, and there's much that is awful about the way that he is manipulative.”
@Dar-ren19 - This is a great question. So interesting!
I'll head over to the Kylo thread, quote your comment there and I'll respond there. Hope that's okay bye!
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