Snoke is a Child Predator and the Skywalker-Solos Failed to Protect Ben: Canon

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Post by MeadowofAshes on Fri 15 Dec - 15:24

Can we please discuss this because I am hopping mad about it and it's killing me. No wonder Ben turned to the damn dark side. I was cheering for Renperor to blow them all, including Broom Kid, to hell at the end.
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Post by special_cases on Fri 15 Dec - 15:47

I think one of the reasons they killed Snoke is to show Kylo without his influence in IX. This can be part of Kylo's redemption - trying to find who he is without Snoke. Maybe he will really let the past die. I hope.
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Post by reylo1992 on Fri 15 Dec - 15:58

Good thread!
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Post by Ynqve on Fri 15 Dec - 16:20

I liked TLJ but I will never not be bothered by this.

Shmi is the only Skywalker with decent parenting skills and she still allowed her kid to participate in extremely dangerous races before she gave him up to a cult of warrior monks.

I'm so disappointed in Luke and Leia. At least Han kind of tried to help Ben.
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Post by MeadowofAshes on Fri 15 Dec - 16:28

Han needed to reach down and see if he could find the balls to stand up to Leia and actually protect their son.
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Post by Kessel on Fri 15 Dec - 16:32

I agree 100% that the title of this thread is canon.  I'm upset that the story is still not adequately addressing these points.

Also, when Luke discovered that Snoke was influencing Ben, why didn't he go after Snoke instead of trying to kill Ben?

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Post by MeadowofAshes on Fri 15 Dec - 16:46

@Kessel wrote:I agree 100% that the title of this thread is canon.  I'm upset that the story is still not adequately addressing these points.

Also, when Luke discovered that Snoke was influencing Ben, why didn't he go after Snoke instead of trying to kill Ben?
@Kessel

Exactly. Everyone in that family blamed the victim. Eff that noise.
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Post by cherrylipstick on Fri 15 Dec - 17:18

@Ynqve wrote:

I'm so disappointed in Luke and Leia. At least Han kind of tried to help Ben.
@Ynqve

Me too. I found Han's final attempt to save his son much more emotional.
Leia did nothing during the entire movie and she basically didn't care about Ben, or so it seemed. I expected more hope and determination from her. I'm so sad because it was the last chance now that Carrie is no longer with us.

@Kessel wrote:
I agree 100% that the title of this thread is canon.  I'm upset that the story is still not adequately addressing these points.

Also, when Luke discovered that Snoke was influencing Ben, why didn't he go after Snoke instead of trying to kill Ben?

Yes exactly. Why didn't he do anything to help his nephew against Snoke and the dark side? Nope, Master Luke thought that it was just easier to kill the boy. And while he was sleeping, such a coward! No, that wasn't the Luke I knew, the hopeful naive Luke that always believed in redemption.
Now I understand why Mark was doubtful.
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Post by motherofpearl1 on Fri 15 Dec - 17:38

@MeadowofAshes wrote:Can we please discuss this because I am hopping mad about it and it's killing me. No wonder Ben turned to the damn dark side. I was cheering for Renperor to blow them all, including Broom Kid, to hell at the end.
@MeadowofAshes

Yep. Out of all the characters in TLJ it's Kylo I felt for. I was actually mad at Rey for rejecting him!!
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Post by motherofpearl1 on Fri 15 Dec - 17:48

@Meomeo wrote:What I dislike is they didn’t give much of screen time to show how Snoke corrupted baby Ben Solo’s mind. Maybe they will have some scenes in the next one? We really need that. The last Jedi gave us some context how it happened. To be honest I don’t blame Luke for being scared of the young Ben’s mentality and had a moment of weakness. Yes it did push Ben into the dark side but surely Snoke’s influence was crawling into Ben’s mind from very early age.
I do hope the next episode will spend more time on Ben’s childhood and how Snoke became his imaginary friend and eventually corrupted Ben. Audience deserve to understand more about the monster. Maybe the force bond will work that way. So Rey can see more of the journey that pushed Ben to the current state. I do hope they will have more flashbacks to the past of Ben Solo.
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I am firmly convinced that's exactly what they are going to do. Rey has gone waltzing back to the Resistance; something has to make her realise just exactly what Ben went through. She still sees the world in black and white, and she is going to learn a hard lesson. Kylo is already realising ruling the FO isn't what he needs. Rey, I think, will find the Resistance equally disappointing.
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Post by ZioRen on Fri 15 Dec - 21:23

@Kessel wrote:I agree 100% that the title of this thread is canon.  I'm upset that the story is still not adequately addressing these points.

Also, when Luke discovered that Snoke was influencing Ben, why didn't he go after Snoke instead of trying to kill Ben?
@Kessel

The characterization of Luke still bugs me for this reason. He knew Snoke was influencing Ben, and I get that he lit his lightsaber in a moment of instinct while sensing the darkness. But after everything went to hell in a handbasket, why was Luke's instinct not to immediately go after Snoke? 

As for Ben Solo's background with Snoke, sadly I'm not sure we're going to get much more. The movie mentions that he'd been in Ben's head for years; does that really need more explanation on screen? We all know how toxic and cloying the dark side is, and Ben had someone powerful in the dark side literally corrupting him for a long time. That's not like typical manipulation, which can be powerful on its own even IF its victim has a "perfect life" and loving family. So I'm not sure much more needs to be explained there, though it'd be nice if we got more insight into his feelings of abandonment toward his parents which probably allowed Snoke to take root in the first place.

It'd be nice if we got a lot of things to flesh out the characters, but there's just way too much going on in the movies to give everyone ample enough attention that way.
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Post by Piper Maru on Fri 15 Dec - 21:42

Snoke was so disgusting. Really, I know we all make fun of him being an ugly dude in golden robes trying to relax but GODDAMNIT, he's one manipulative bastard/child predator/dirty old man. I hated him calling Kylo and Rey "childs", sniffing Rey, hurting them and laughing, it's really horrible and he f****ing deserved to die. I'm so glad Kylo was the one to kill him and I loved how he didn't give a f**** about it by the end.
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Post by MeadowofAshes on Fri 15 Dec - 21:46

@Piper Maru wrote:Snoke was so disgusting. Really, I know we all make fun of him being an ugly dude in golden robes trying to relax but GODDAMNIT, he's one manipulative bastard/child predator/dirty old man. I hated him calling Kylo and Rey "childs", sniffing Rey, hurting them and laughing, it's really horrible and he f****ing deserved to die. I'm so glad Kylo was the one to kill him and I loved how he didn't give a f**** about it by the end.
@Piper Maru

Snoke hurt his woman. That crossed the line. He'll let Snoke torture himself but not Rey. Crying or Very sad
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Post by snufkin on Fri 15 Dec - 22:12

Snoke was a horrible predator, but Luke straight-up f**ked up. That's what he's finally forced to admit to Rey. He wanted Ben the same way Snoke did, to 'train' his power for his own hubris and convinced Leia to hand him over. So the moment when he contemplates murdering him for his darkness is straight out of The Searchers - Ethan believes he should murder his niece for being corrupted. Which is why I was sitting in the theater last night thinking to myself:

1. "This may as painful a film about the breakdown of parent-child relationships as Ladybird. Because Luke and Leia come off as bad as Marion in how they handled Ben and pushed him over issues which had more to do with them, than with her (just like how Marion picks at Ladybird/Christine)."

2. The confrontation between Ben and Luke was meant to keep the fanboys happy. Which sure, I enjoyed him channeling Lee Marvin. But also LMAO over it being the equivalent to an ugly family argument at a gathering being shown in a movie meant for family viewing at Christmas.
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Post by guardienne on Sat 16 Dec - 10:36

i don't think the story delves into any of this at all, except in a tokenistic fashion? i mean, i think the relationship between kylo and snoke was more fleshed out in TFA, in less screen time? it felt like that?

i'm sorry i have so many problems with that movie, it doesn't bear thinking about it.

luke positively looked like a maniac in the flashback that ben narrates. does this mean he dehumanises luke or something?

basically i think the takeaway is that snoke was in his mind basically forever, can read it inside out and so ... introduces him to the darkness? or something? luke senses the darkness, then thinks to end him (d**** move but hey) and that night, bend destroys everything, and kills a bunch of people because ... talking about it is too much??



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Post by Darth Dingbat on Sat 16 Dec - 11:01

I think IX will pretty much have to go back to "I will finish what you started" and why and how Snoke corrupted young Ben and made him believe the FO was the right way in the first place. But that's just me.

TLJ made something very clear to me, though. Rey as the main character was a bait and switch. Sorry, but that's what I think, and it disappointed me because I saw this trilogy as a heroine's journey and now that was yet another thing for me to readjust my brain about. The trilogy is really about Ben Solo, and I could kick myself for not seeing the writing on the wall earlier: of course the only young Skywalker is the main character in the Skywalker saga.

We know TFA was Han's film, and Han's arc was about Ben and redeeming himself as a father. TLJ was Luke's film, and Luke's arc was about Ben and redeeming himself for being such a horrid uncle (however poorly, IMO, the film handled that redemption).

IX was meant to be Leia's film. Not much of a stretch to see now that it was meant to be about Leia redeeming herself as a mother. I'm very sure that Ben's childhood and corruption by predator Snoke - and digging his way out of that dark hole now that he's finally free of Snoke's influence - will play into the story.

Whether it's done well is another matter, but I believe that's the gist of it.
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Post by DarthRen on Sat 16 Dec - 11:37

@MeadowofAshes wrote:Han needed to reach down and see if he could find the balls to stand up to Leia and actually protect their son.
@MeadowofAshes

Han had more courage than Luke and Leia combined. I know, not saying much because he still failed Ben. Han was at least willing to die and he realized his mistakes, was honest about it, forgive Kylo/Ben for his death and Kylo/Ben almost went with him. Compare that with smug matrix Jesus like figure Luke contronting Kylo/Ben.
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Post by cherrylipstick on Sat 16 Dec - 13:52

@DarthRen wrote:
@MeadowofAshes wrote:Han needed to reach down and see if he could find the balls to stand up to Leia and actually protect their son.
@MeadowofAshes

Han had more courage than Luke and Leia combined. I know, not saying much because he still failed Ben. Han was at least willing to die and he realized his mistakes, was honest about it, forgive Kylo/Ben for his death and Kylo/Ben almost went with him. Compare that with smug matrix Jesus like figure Luke contronting Kylo/Ben.
@DarthRen
Perfectly said.
The last scene with Han and Ben/Kylo was really touching, realistic and intense. This one one with Luke on the contrary... I really don't know why they decided to use that mocking tone, I found it annoying and it made the scene less powerful.
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Post by Piper Maru on Sat 16 Dec - 13:58

@DarthRen wrote:
@MeadowofAshes wrote:Han needed to reach down and see if he could find the balls to stand up to Leia and actually protect their son.
@MeadowofAshes

Han had more courage than Luke and Leia combined. I know, not saying much because he still failed Ben. Han was at least willing to die and he realized his mistakes, was honest about it, forgive Kylo/Ben for his death and Kylo/Ben almost went with him. Compare that with smug matrix Jesus like figure Luke contronting Kylo/Ben.
@DarthRen

"Smug matrix Jesus like figure" lmaooooooo it's so true.
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Post by DarthRen on Sat 16 Dec - 14:16

@cherrylipstick wrote:
@DarthRen wrote:
@MeadowofAshes wrote:Han needed to reach down and see if he could find the balls to stand up to Leia and actually protect their son.
@MeadowofAshes

Han had more courage than Luke and Leia combined. I know, not saying much because he still failed Ben. Han was at least willing to die and he realized his mistakes, was honest about it, forgive Kylo/Ben for his death and Kylo/Ben almost went with him. Compare that with smug matrix Jesus like figure Luke contronting Kylo/Ben.
@DarthRen
Perfectly said.
The last scene with Han and Ben/Kylo was really touching, realistic and intense. This one one with Luke on the contrary... I really don't know why they decided to use that mocking tone, I found it annoying and it made the scene less powerful.
@cherrylipstick

If it wasn't for the temple disaster, I'd understand of Luke trying to teach him a lesson but that was distasteful, dissapointing and I bet Mark Hamill would agree.
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Post by motherofpearl1 on Sat 16 Dec - 14:21

@DarthRen wrote:
@MeadowofAshes wrote:Han needed to reach down and see if he could find the balls to stand up to Leia and actually protect their son.
@MeadowofAshes

Han had more courage than Luke and Leia combined. I know, not saying much because he still failed Ben. Han was at least willing to die and he realized his mistakes, was honest about it, forgive Kylo/Ben for his death and Kylo/Ben almost went with him. Compare that with smug matrix Jesus like figure Luke contronting Kylo/Ben.
@DarthRen

If there was a Jesus like figure, it was Han. As a tumblr poster said (forgive me, I've forgotten who) he even died on a cross. Luke is more like Judas.
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Post by MeadowofAshes on Sat 16 Dec - 14:32

@motherofpearl1 wrote:
@DarthRen wrote:
@MeadowofAshes wrote:Han needed to reach down and see if he could find the balls to stand up to Leia and actually protect their son.
@MeadowofAshes

Han had more courage than Luke and Leia combined. I know, not saying much because he still failed Ben. Han was at least willing to die and he realized his mistakes, was honest about it, forgive Kylo/Ben for his death and Kylo/Ben almost went with him. Compare that with smug matrix Jesus like figure Luke contronting Kylo/Ben.
@DarthRen

If there was a Jesus like figure, it was Han. As a tumblr poster said (forgive me, I've forgotten who) he even died on a cross. Luke is more like Judas.
@motherofpearl1

I couldn't agree more about Han as Jesus figure. I've always said that scene is a not subtle allusion to the crucifixion. I'm just so disappointed and frustrated with everyone in Ben's family -- every adult who was supposed to protect him from that nasty old f*** -- thought BEN was the problem and gave up on him. It makes me sick.
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Post by FrolickingFizzgig on Sat 16 Dec - 14:35

Snoke was the creepiest s*** ever and I was so glad when Kylo bisected him. The way he Force pulled Rey and touched her face and called her "CHILD" over and over. NOPE!!!

Snoke was actually one of the things I liked most about this film. He had more scenes and he made a real impact. Of course he's gone now (RIP Sney) but he was quite he presence when he was around.
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Post by SoloSideCousin on Sat 16 Dec - 15:09

@Darth Dingbat wrote:I think IX will pretty much have to go back to "I will finish what you started" and why and how Snoke corrupted young Ben and made him believe the FO was the right way in the first place. But that's just me.

TLJ made something very clear to me, though. Rey as the main character was a bait and switch. Sorry, but that's what I think, and it disappointed me because I saw this trilogy as a heroine's journey and now that was yet another thing for me to readjust my brain about. The trilogy is really about Ben Solo, and I could kick myself for not seeing the writing on the wall earlier: of course the only young Skywalker is the main character in the Skywalker saga.

We know TFA was Han's film, and Han's arc was about Ben and redeeming himself as a father. TLJ was Luke's film, and Luke's arc was about Ben and redeeming himself for being such a horrid uncle (however poorly, IMO, the film handled that redemption).

IX was meant to be Leia's film. Not much of a stretch to see now that it was meant to be about Leia redeeming herself as a mother. I'm very sure that Ben's childhood and corruption by predator Snoke - and digging his way out of that dark hole now that he's finally free of Snoke's influence - will play into the story.

Whether it's done well is another matter, but I believe that's the gist of it.
@Darth Dingbat

Yes! All of this! And on Ben digging himself out of that hole ... Remember what Adam said ... it's *rehabilitation*. Very Happy
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