Snoke is a Child Predator and the Skywalker-Solos Failed to Protect Ben: Canon

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Post by DarthRen on Sat 16 Dec 2017, 8:48 am

@motherofpearl1 wrote:
@DarthRen wrote:
@MeadowofAshes wrote:Han needed to reach down and see if he could find the balls to stand up to Leia and actually protect their son.
@MeadowofAshes

Han had more courage than Luke and Leia combined. I know, not saying much because he still failed Ben. Han was at least willing to die and he realized his mistakes, was honest about it, forgive Kylo/Ben for his death and Kylo/Ben almost went with him. Compare that with smug matrix Jesus like figure Luke contronting Kylo/Ben.
@DarthRen

If there was a Jesus like figure, it was Han. As a tumblr poster said (forgive me, I've forgotten who) he even died on a cross. Luke is more like Judas.
@motherofpearl1

They way it was shot and how Luke looked, it had Jesus like vibes to it but yeahas far is significance goes and narrative sense han is more like Jesus and Luke Judas who bertrayed him.
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Post by MeadowofAshes on Sat 16 Dec 2017, 8:53 am

@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:Snoke was the creepiest s*** ever and I was so glad when Kylo bisected him. The way he Force pulled Rey and touched her face and called her "CHILD" over and over. NOPE!!!

Snoke was actually one of the things I liked most about this film. He had more scenes and he made a real impact. Of course he's gone now (RIP Sney) but he was quite he presence when he was around.
@FrolickingFizzgig

Right? It made me sick to my stomach. They were not subtle with that metaphor.
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Post by Darth Dingbat on Sat 16 Dec 2017, 9:06 am

Btw, if they went this far with Luke's character - which I never thought they would - I'm starting to believe the plan was always to make Leia and Han ultimately responsible for failing to protect their child.

Think about it. The pattern is already clear. Han's arc is about what happened to Ben; Luke's arc is about what happened to Ben. We already know Leia knew about Snoke and she regretted sending her son away. Luke was the final catalyst that pushed him over the edge but Snoke's early involvement - for which Leia feels guilty - is the root of the problem. And it's the final mystery. We don't know how exactly Snoke abused Ben and influenced his mind, and how his parents failed to help.

There's no way that's not going to be addressed. After seeing TLJ I think that was meant to be the crux of Leia's arc in IX.
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Post by MeadowofAshes on Sat 16 Dec 2017, 9:26 am

@Darth Dingbat wrote:Btw, if they went this far with Luke's character - which I never thought they would - I'm starting to believe the plan was always to make Leia and Han ultimately responsible for failing to protect their child.

Think about it. The pattern is already clear. Han's arc is about what happened to Ben; Luke's arc is about what happened to Ben. We already know Leia knew about Snoke and she regretted sending her son away. Luke was the final catalyst that pushed him over the edge but Snoke's early involvement - for which Leia feels guilty - is the root of the problem. And it's the final mystery. We don't know how exactly Snoke abused Ben and influenced his mind, and how his parents failed to help.

There's no way that's not going to be addressed. After seeing TLJ I think that was meant to be the crux of Leia's arc in IX.
@Darth Dingbat

It's already canon Snoke was preying on Ben in his mother's womb (that puts me in full fight mode btw). Leia just didn't realize it until it was too late. I'm eager to hear in IX how she figured it out and why she decided to send Ben away rather than take on Snoke. We know from interviews Snoke targeted Ben because he's vengeful so that'll be interesting too.

I love this story. I hate it at the same time, but I love it because it's an all too real representation of what happens to abuse victims. We as humans need this story.


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Post by thescavenger on Sat 16 Dec 2017, 9:29 am

@MeadowofAshes wrote:
@Darth Dingbat wrote:Btw, if they went this far with Luke's character - which I never thought they would - I'm starting to believe the plan was always to make Leia and Han ultimately responsible for failing to protect their child.

Think about it. The pattern is already clear. Han's arc is about what happened to Ben; Luke's arc is about what happened to Ben. We already know Leia knew about Snoke and she regretted sending her son away. Luke was the final catalyst that pushed him over the edge but Snoke's early involvement - for which Leia feels guilty - is the root of the problem. And it's the final mystery. We don't know how exactly Snoke abused Ben and influenced his mind, and how his parents failed to help.

There's no way that's not going to be addressed. After seeing TLJ I think that was meant to be the crux of Leia's arc in IX.
@Darth Dingbat

It's already canon Snoke was preying on Ben in his mother's womb (that puts me in full fight mode btw). Leia just didn't realize it until it was too late. I'm eager to hear in IX how she figured it out and why she decided to send Ben away rather than take on Snoke. We know from interviews Snoke targeted Ben because he's vengeful so that'll be interesting too.
@MeadowofAshes

Even with Snoke's gone, do you think we'll get more out of his background and involvement in turning Ben in IX? It seemed like a missed opportunity by not discussing what he exactly did before he died in TLJ.
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Post by MeadowofAshes on Sat 16 Dec 2017, 9:34 am

@thescavenger wrote:
@MeadowofAshes wrote:
@Darth Dingbat wrote:Btw, if they went this far with Luke's character - which I never thought they would - I'm starting to believe the plan was always to make Leia and Han ultimately responsible for failing to protect their child.

Think about it. The pattern is already clear. Han's arc is about what happened to Ben; Luke's arc is about what happened to Ben. We already know Leia knew about Snoke and she regretted sending her son away. Luke was the final catalyst that pushed him over the edge but Snoke's early involvement - for which Leia feels guilty - is the root of the problem. And it's the final mystery. We don't know how exactly Snoke abused Ben and influenced his mind, and how his parents failed to help.

There's no way that's not going to be addressed. After seeing TLJ I think that was meant to be the crux of Leia's arc in IX.
@Darth Dingbat

It's already canon Snoke was preying on Ben in his mother's womb (that puts me in full fight mode btw). Leia just didn't realize it until it was too late. I'm eager to hear in IX how she figured it out and why she decided to send Ben away rather than take on Snoke. We know from interviews Snoke targeted Ben because he's vengeful so that'll be interesting too.
@MeadowofAshes

Even with Snoke's gone, do you think we'll get more out of his background and involvement in turning Ben in IX? It seemed like a missed opportunity by not discussing what he exactly did before he died in TLJ.
@thescavenger
I don't necessarily know that Snoke is gone. We'll see. Could have been a hologram like Luke. I hope he is gone, because I found his death incredibly satisfying.

If he is gone, there's always the possibility of Leia making amends with Ben and explaining it for his benefit and the audience's.
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Post by Darth Dingbat on Sat 16 Dec 2017, 9:37 am

Well, we had a Forceback in TFA. Just as easily Rey's dark night of the soul could be experiencing what young Ben went through.
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Post by motherofpearl1 on Sat 16 Dec 2017, 10:20 am

@MeadowofAshes wrote:
@Darth Dingbat wrote:Btw, if they went this far with Luke's character - which I never thought they would - I'm starting to believe the plan was always to make Leia and Han ultimately responsible for failing to protect their child.

Think about it. The pattern is already clear. Han's arc is about what happened to Ben; Luke's arc is about what happened to Ben. We already know Leia knew about Snoke and she regretted sending her son away. Luke was the final catalyst that pushed him over the edge but Snoke's early involvement - for which Leia feels guilty - is the root of the problem. And it's the final mystery. We don't know how exactly Snoke abused Ben and influenced his mind, and how his parents failed to help.

There's no way that's not going to be addressed. After seeing TLJ I think that was meant to be the crux of Leia's arc in IX.
@Darth Dingbat

It's already canon Snoke was preying on Ben in his mother's womb (that puts me in full fight mode btw). Leia just didn't realize it until it was too late. I'm eager to hear in IX how she figured it out and why she decided to send Ben away rather than take on Snoke. We know from interviews Snoke targeted Ben because he's vengeful so that'll be interesting too.

I love this story. I hate it at the same time, but I love it because it's an all too real representation of what happens to abuse victims. We as humans need this story.
@MeadowofAshes

Absolutely. I watched a couple of vintage Special Victims Unit recently and two episodes dealt with psychological grooming. I was stunned to see how much it reminded me of Kylo and Snoke. I want Rey to see through the Force Bond just exactly what he did to Kylo. It will be a revelation for her.
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Post by thescavenger on Sat 16 Dec 2017, 10:28 am

@motherofpearl1 wrote:
@MeadowofAshes wrote:
@Darth Dingbat wrote:Btw, if they went this far with Luke's character - which I never thought they would - I'm starting to believe the plan was always to make Leia and Han ultimately responsible for failing to protect their child.

Think about it. The pattern is already clear. Han's arc is about what happened to Ben; Luke's arc is about what happened to Ben. We already know Leia knew about Snoke and she regretted sending her son away. Luke was the final catalyst that pushed him over the edge but Snoke's early involvement - for which Leia feels guilty - is the root of the problem. And it's the final mystery. We don't know how exactly Snoke abused Ben and influenced his mind, and how his parents failed to help.

There's no way that's not going to be addressed. After seeing TLJ I think that was meant to be the crux of Leia's arc in IX.
@Darth Dingbat

It's already canon Snoke was preying on Ben in his mother's womb (that puts me in full fight mode btw). Leia just didn't realize it until it was too late. I'm eager to hear in IX how she figured it out and why she decided to send Ben away rather than take on Snoke. We know from interviews Snoke targeted Ben because he's vengeful so that'll be interesting too.

I love this story. I hate it at the same time, but I love it because it's an all too real representation of what happens to abuse victims. We as humans need this story.
@MeadowofAshes

Absolutely. I watched a couple of vintage Special Victims Unit recently and two episodes dealt with psychological grooming. I was stunned to see how much it reminded me of Kylo and Snoke. I want Rey to see through the Force Bond just exactly what he did to Kylo. It will be a revelation for her.
@motherofpearl1

Yep, this. I think their force bond sessions this time round were centred on Rey's past and abandonment. I think Rey looking into Ben's past, being manipulated by Snoke and all that led up to Luke's betrayal, could be what gives her complete sympathy for and faith in Ben Solo.
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Post by motherofpearl1 on Sat 16 Dec 2017, 10:34 am

Let's petition JJ!
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Post by Ynqve on Sat 16 Dec 2017, 10:40 am

All of this makes me more and more convinced that they have to redeem Ben and keep him alive. Otherwise Ben's story will be the most depressing thing since Sansa's season 5 arc on GoT and they would have ruined three beloved characters in the process.

SW is about the power of love, redemption and compassion. A story about how an abuse victim is let down by everyone and is then punished by the heroes doesn't fit with the franchise. It's not the kind of message that you want to send to children.
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Post by Darth Dingbat on Sat 16 Dec 2017, 11:03 am

I'm thinking about the way they're telling the story of this trilogy as it seems a bit jarring. I mean, either haphazard or jarring OR something else that we don't yet know - take your pick. You basically have this character who was canonically failed, as a child and youth, by the adults close to him. The very point of the second film is his uncle's failure. But the trajectory they're doing with this is so weird. This failure and the childhood abuse he went through, which SHOULD be game-changing information, is downplayed to the point that a large chunk of the audience doesn't even see it. And this film was like, "Okay, there's more to this character... there's still a Ben beneath Kylo Ren... *gasp* And his uncle Luke contemplated killing him! But wait, he's Renperor now. Nevermind. Perhaps his uncle should have killed him when he had the chance, eh? But wait, look, now he's crying..."

None of this really makes sense unless they finally delve properly into this in IX and no longer try to downplay it or undercut it with his unpredictable villainy.

If, by any chance, Kylo were simply the villain now, and these details were there just to give him "complexity" which ultimately doesn't amount to anything significant... wow. Poor taste and tone-deaf to the extreme.

But like I said, I don't think that's the case. Both OT characters' arcs have been about Ben now. That's a pattern. This story is about Ben, I just have a hard time grasping how exactly they're telling it.
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Post by motherofpearl1 on Sat 16 Dec 2017, 11:09 am

@guardienne wrote:i don't think the story delves into any of this at all, except in a tokenistic fashion? i mean, i think the relationship between kylo and snoke was more fleshed out in TFA, in less screen time? it felt like that?

i'm sorry i have so many problems with that movie, it doesn't bear thinking about it.

luke positively looked like a maniac in the flashback that ben narrates. does this mean he dehumanises luke or something?

basically i think the takeaway is that snoke was in his mind basically forever, can read it inside out and so ... introduces him to the darkness? or something? luke senses the darkness, then thinks to end him (d**** move but hey) and that night, bend destroys everything, and kills a bunch of people because ... talking about it is too much??



@guardienne

Because that was how Ben saw him. A maniac who was trying to kill him.
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Post by panki on Sat 16 Dec 2017, 11:22 am

@Darth Dingbat wrote:I'm thinking about the way they're telling the story of this trilogy as it seems a bit jarring. I mean, either haphazard or jarring OR something else that we don't yet know - take your pick. You basically have this character who was canonically failed, as a child and youth, by the adults close to him. The very point of the second film is his uncle's failure. But the trajectory they're doing with this is so weird. This failure and the childhood abuse he went through, which SHOULD be game-changing information, is downplayed to the point that a large chunk of the audience doesn't even see it. And this film was like, "Okay, there's more to this character... there's still a Ben beneath Kylo Ren... *gasp* And his uncle Luke contemplated killing him! But wait, he's Renperor now. Nevermind. Perhaps his uncle should have killed him when he had the chance, eh? But wait, look, now he's crying..."

None of this really makes sense unless they finally delve properly into this in IX and no longer try to downplay it or undercut it with his unpredictable villainy.

If, by any chance, Kylo were simply the villain now, and these details were there just to give him "complexity" which ultimately doesn't amount to anything significant... wow. Poor taste and tone-deaf to the extreme.

But like I said, I don't think that's the case. Both OT characters' arcs have been about Ben now. That's a pattern. This story is about Ben, I just have a hard time grasping how exactly they're telling it.
@Darth Dingbat

I think you might understand this, but Ben somewhat reminded me of Arcann from the EU (I could be way off with this)....I just wish the movie had given us a lttle more to go with in our understanding of Ben Solo.

- Was he being preyed upon by Snoke but holding it off until Luke looming over him frightened him + Vader lineage set him down a dark path?
- Were he and the students who left with him already planning a massacre instigated by Snoke, and did Luke want to kill him because he saw that but finally could not?

I think it is the first option but I really wish they had cleared that up because it makes a big difference to how the audience sees Kylo's redemption. I hope the novelisation clears it up.


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Post by MeadowofAshes on Sat 16 Dec 2017, 11:25 am

@panki wrote:
@Darth Dingbat wrote:I'm thinking about the way they're telling the story of this trilogy as it seems a bit jarring. I mean, either haphazard or jarring OR something else that we don't yet know - take your pick. You basically have this character who was canonically failed, as a child and youth, by the adults close to him. The very point of the second film is his uncle's failure. But the trajectory they're doing with this is so weird. This failure and the childhood abuse he went through, which SHOULD be game-changing information, is downplayed to the point that a large chunk of the audience doesn't even see it. And this film was like, "Okay, there's more to this character... there's still a Ben beneath Kylo Ren... *gasp* And his uncle Luke contemplated killing him! But wait, he's Renperor now. Nevermind. Perhaps his uncle should have killed him when he had the chance, eh? But wait, look, now he's crying..."

None of this really makes sense unless they finally delve properly into this in IX and no longer try to downplay it or undercut it with his unpredictable villainy.

If, by any chance, Kylo were simply the villain now, and these details were there just to give him "complexity" which ultimately doesn't amount to anything significant... wow. Poor taste and tone-deaf to the extreme.

But like I said, I don't think that's the case. Both OT characters' arcs have been about Ben now. That's a pattern. This story is about Ben, I just have a hard time grasping how exactly they're telling it.
@Darth Dingbat

I think you might understand this, but Ben somewhat reminded me of Arcann from the EU (I could be way off with this)....I just wish the movie had given us a lttle more to go with in our understanding of Ben Solo.

- Was he being preyed upon by Snoke but holding it off until Luke looming over him frightened him + Vader lineage set him down a dark path?
- Were he and the students who left with him already planning a massacre instigated by Snoke, and did Luke want to kill him because he saw that but finally could not?

I think it is the first option but I really wish they had cleared that up because it makes a big difference to how the audience sees Kylo's redemption. I hope the novelisation clears it up.

@panki

IMO yes to your first question and no to your second. I got the impression Ben had darkness (Snoke's influence) inside and was making poor choices, but wasn't planning a takeover or anything like that. Could totally be my headcanon but it read to me that Ben panicked and ran in for help but half the students didn't believe him and half did.
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Post by panki on Sat 16 Dec 2017, 11:30 am

@MeadowofAshes wrote:
@panki wrote:
@Darth Dingbat wrote:I'm thinking about the way they're telling the story of this trilogy as it seems a bit jarring. I mean, either haphazard or jarring OR something else that we don't yet know - take your pick. You basically have this character who was canonically failed, as a child and youth, by the adults close to him. The very point of the second film is his uncle's failure. But the trajectory they're doing with this is so weird. This failure and the childhood abuse he went through, which SHOULD be game-changing information, is downplayed to the point that a large chunk of the audience doesn't even see it. And this film was like, "Okay, there's more to this character... there's still a Ben beneath Kylo Ren... *gasp* And his uncle Luke contemplated killing him! But wait, he's Renperor now. Nevermind. Perhaps his uncle should have killed him when he had the chance, eh? But wait, look, now he's crying..."

None of this really makes sense unless they finally delve properly into this in IX and no longer try to downplay it or undercut it with his unpredictable villainy.

If, by any chance, Kylo were simply the villain now, and these details were there just to give him "complexity" which ultimately doesn't amount to anything significant... wow. Poor taste and tone-deaf to the extreme.

But like I said, I don't think that's the case. Both OT characters' arcs have been about Ben now. That's a pattern. This story is about Ben, I just have a hard time grasping how exactly they're telling it.
@Darth Dingbat

I think you might understand this, but Ben somewhat reminded me of Arcann from the EU (I could be way off with this)....I just wish the movie had given us a lttle more to go with in our understanding of Ben Solo.

- Was he being preyed upon by Snoke but holding it off until Luke looming over him frightened him + Vader lineage set him down a dark path?
- Were he and the students who left with him already planning a massacre instigated by Snoke, and did Luke want to kill him because he saw that but finally could not?

I think it is the first option but I really wish they had cleared that up because it makes a big difference to how the audience sees Kylo's redemption. I hope the novelisation clears it up.

@panki

IMO yes to your first question and no to your second. I got the impression Ben had darkness (Snoke's influence) inside and was making poor choices, but wasn't planning a takeover or anything like that. Could totally be my headcanon but it read to me that Ben panicked and ran in for help but half the students didn't believe him and half did.
@MeadowofAshes

I hope you are right....hopefully the novel will clear up what what exactly happened.

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Post by rey09 on Sat 16 Dec 2017, 11:38 am

Soo just came back from watching the movie. Lots of thoughts...the Snoke Ben thing was a miss. Like it was too rused and didn't even tell you much about it!! All you see is that Luke sensed lots of darkness, it was too late Snoke already got him and he tried to kill him. And then they just all this mopey Kylo is actually manipulative Kylo? I mean I think Kylo is still in the denial phase. He knows he has good on him but he hasn't come to terms. People who vouch for Evil Kylo are happy...I have no doubt he will become good again though.

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Post by Darth Dingbat on Sat 16 Dec 2017, 11:38 am

@panki wrote:
@Darth Dingbat wrote:I'm thinking about the way they're telling the story of this trilogy as it seems a bit jarring. I mean, either haphazard or jarring OR something else that we don't yet know - take your pick. You basically have this character who was canonically failed, as a child and youth, by the adults close to him. The very point of the second film is his uncle's failure. But the trajectory they're doing with this is so weird. This failure and the childhood abuse he went through, which SHOULD be game-changing information, is downplayed to the point that a large chunk of the audience doesn't even see it. And this film was like, "Okay, there's more to this character... there's still a Ben beneath Kylo Ren... *gasp* And his uncle Luke contemplated killing him! But wait, he's Renperor now. Nevermind. Perhaps his uncle should have killed him when he had the chance, eh? But wait, look, now he's crying..."

None of this really makes sense unless they finally delve properly into this in IX and no longer try to downplay it or undercut it with his unpredictable villainy.

If, by any chance, Kylo were simply the villain now, and these details were there just to give him "complexity" which ultimately doesn't amount to anything significant... wow. Poor taste and tone-deaf to the extreme.

But like I said, I don't think that's the case. Both OT characters' arcs have been about Ben now. That's a pattern. This story is about Ben, I just have a hard time grasping how exactly they're telling it.
@Darth Dingbat

I think you might understand this, but Ben somewhat reminded me of Arcann from the EU (I could be way off with this)....I just wish the movie had given us a lttle more to go with in our understanding of Ben Solo.

- Was he being preyed upon by Snoke but holding it off until Luke looming over him frightened him + Vader lineage set him down a dark path?
- Were he and the students who left with him already planning a massacre instigated by Snoke, and did Luke want to kill him because he saw that but finally could not?

I think it is the first option but I really wish they had cleared that up because it makes a big difference to how the audience sees Kylo's redemption. I hope the novelisation clears it up.

@panki

Yes, I understand the Arcann comparison! Though more vulnerable, I'd say.

We're still no closer to understanding how the temple massacre or "massacre" even went down. Luke creeps up on Ben, Ben Force-pushes (?) him away, and the next thing you know Luke is digging himself out from under a pile of debris? Did Ben run straight to slaughter everybody, or did his fear and shock push him to the Dark Side with a literal BOOM of raw powah that caused death and destruction all around him?

Ben doesn't stay to finish off his uncle, and if Luke was knocked out under debris, looks like even he didn't know what exactly happened in the aftermath of their altercation.

It's either a mystery or not important to the story. I don't know.
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Post by Ynqve on Sat 16 Dec 2017, 11:44 am

@Darth Dingbat wrote:
@panki wrote:
@Darth Dingbat wrote:I'm thinking about the way they're telling the story of this trilogy as it seems a bit jarring. I mean, either haphazard or jarring OR something else that we don't yet know - take your pick. You basically have this character who was canonically failed, as a child and youth, by the adults close to him. The very point of the second film is his uncle's failure. But the trajectory they're doing with this is so weird. This failure and the childhood abuse he went through, which SHOULD be game-changing information, is downplayed to the point that a large chunk of the audience doesn't even see it. And this film was like, "Okay, there's more to this character... there's still a Ben beneath Kylo Ren... *gasp* And his uncle Luke contemplated killing him! But wait, he's Renperor now. Nevermind. Perhaps his uncle should have killed him when he had the chance, eh? But wait, look, now he's crying..."

None of this really makes sense unless they finally delve properly into this in IX and no longer try to downplay it or undercut it with his unpredictable villainy.

If, by any chance, Kylo were simply the villain now, and these details were there just to give him "complexity" which ultimately doesn't amount to anything significant... wow. Poor taste and tone-deaf to the extreme.

But like I said, I don't think that's the case. Both OT characters' arcs have been about Ben now. That's a pattern. This story is about Ben, I just have a hard time grasping how exactly they're telling it.
@Darth Dingbat

I think you might understand this, but Ben somewhat reminded me of Arcann from the EU (I could be way off with this)....I just wish the movie had given us a lttle more to go with in our understanding of Ben Solo.

- Was he being preyed upon by Snoke but holding it off until Luke looming over him frightened him + Vader lineage set him down a dark path?
- Were he and the students who left with him already planning a massacre instigated by Snoke, and did Luke want to kill him because he saw that but finally could not?

I think it is the first option but I really wish they had cleared that up because it makes a big difference to how the audience sees Kylo's redemption. I hope the novelisation clears it up.

@panki

Yes, I understand the Arcann comparison! Though more vulnerable, I'd say.

We're still no closer to understanding how the temple massacre or "massacre" even went down. Luke creeps up on Ben, Ben Force-pushes (?) him away, and the next thing you know Luke is digging himself out from under a pile of debris? Did Ben run straight to slaughter everybody, or did his fear and shock push him to the Dark Side with a literal BOOM of raw powah that caused death and destruction all around him?

Ben doesn't stay to finish off his uncle, and if Luke was knocked out under debris, looks like even he didn't know what exactly happened in the aftermath of their altercation.

It's either a mystery or not important to the story. I don't know.
@Darth Dingbat

It's very important to know wth happened to the dead students. We need to know if Ben killed them and if he did murder them, we need to know why he did so. Force-pushing Luke is 100 % justified, killing the students is (probably) not. It's very important to his redemption.
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Post by Darth Dingbat on Sat 16 Dec 2017, 11:45 am

@Ynqve wrote:
@Darth Dingbat wrote:
@panki wrote:
@Darth Dingbat wrote:I'm thinking about the way they're telling the story of this trilogy as it seems a bit jarring. I mean, either haphazard or jarring OR something else that we don't yet know - take your pick. You basically have this character who was canonically failed, as a child and youth, by the adults close to him. The very point of the second film is his uncle's failure. But the trajectory they're doing with this is so weird. This failure and the childhood abuse he went through, which SHOULD be game-changing information, is downplayed to the point that a large chunk of the audience doesn't even see it. And this film was like, "Okay, there's more to this character... there's still a Ben beneath Kylo Ren... *gasp* And his uncle Luke contemplated killing him! But wait, he's Renperor now. Nevermind. Perhaps his uncle should have killed him when he had the chance, eh? But wait, look, now he's crying..."

None of this really makes sense unless they finally delve properly into this in IX and no longer try to downplay it or undercut it with his unpredictable villainy.

If, by any chance, Kylo were simply the villain now, and these details were there just to give him "complexity" which ultimately doesn't amount to anything significant... wow. Poor taste and tone-deaf to the extreme.

But like I said, I don't think that's the case. Both OT characters' arcs have been about Ben now. That's a pattern. This story is about Ben, I just have a hard time grasping how exactly they're telling it.
@Darth Dingbat

I think you might understand this, but Ben somewhat reminded me of Arcann from the EU (I could be way off with this)....I just wish the movie had given us a lttle more to go with in our understanding of Ben Solo.

- Was he being preyed upon by Snoke but holding it off until Luke looming over him frightened him + Vader lineage set him down a dark path?
- Were he and the students who left with him already planning a massacre instigated by Snoke, and did Luke want to kill him because he saw that but finally could not?

I think it is the first option but I really wish they had cleared that up because it makes a big difference to how the audience sees Kylo's redemption. I hope the novelisation clears it up.

@panki

Yes, I understand the Arcann comparison! Though more vulnerable, I'd say.

We're still no closer to understanding how the temple massacre or "massacre" even went down. Luke creeps up on Ben, Ben Force-pushes (?) him away, and the next thing you know Luke is digging himself out from under a pile of debris? Did Ben run straight to slaughter everybody, or did his fear and shock push him to the Dark Side with a literal BOOM of raw powah that caused death and destruction all around him?

Ben doesn't stay to finish off his uncle, and if Luke was knocked out under debris, looks like even he didn't know what exactly happened in the aftermath of their altercation.

It's either a mystery or not important to the story. I don't know.
@Darth Dingbat

It's very important to know wth happened to the dead students. We need to know if Ben killed them and if he did murder them, we need to know why he did so. Force-pushing Luke is 100 % justified, killing the students is (probably) not. It's very important to his redemption.
@Ynqve

Oh, agreed. But after all the threads they seemed to drop with TLJ I'm kind of unsure what to expect answers for.
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Post by SoloSideCousin on Sat 16 Dec 2017, 11:46 am

@MeadowofAshes wrote:
@panki wrote:
@Darth Dingbat wrote:I'm thinking about the way they're telling the story of this trilogy as it seems a bit jarring. I mean, either haphazard or jarring OR something else that we don't yet know - take your pick. You basically have this character who was canonically failed, as a child and youth, by the adults close to him. The very point of the second film is his uncle's failure. But the trajectory they're doing with this is so weird. This failure and the childhood abuse he went through, which SHOULD be game-changing information, is downplayed to the point that a large chunk of the audience doesn't even see it. And this film was like, "Okay, there's more to this character... there's still a Ben beneath Kylo Ren... *gasp* And his uncle Luke contemplated killing him! But wait, he's Renperor now. Nevermind. Perhaps his uncle should have killed him when he had the chance, eh? But wait, look, now he's crying..."

None of this really makes sense unless they finally delve properly into this in IX and no longer try to downplay it or undercut it with his unpredictable villainy.

If, by any chance, Kylo were simply the villain now, and these details were there just to give him "complexity" which ultimately doesn't amount to anything significant... wow. Poor taste and tone-deaf to the extreme.

But like I said, I don't think that's the case. Both OT characters' arcs have been about Ben now. That's a pattern. This story is about Ben, I just have a hard time grasping how exactly they're telling it.
@Darth Dingbat

I think you might understand this, but Ben somewhat reminded me of Arcann from the EU (I could be way off with this)....I just wish the movie had given us a lttle more to go with in our understanding of Ben Solo.

- Was he being preyed upon by Snoke but holding it off until Luke looming over him frightened him + Vader lineage set him down a dark path?
- Were he and the students who left with him already planning a massacre instigated by Snoke, and did Luke want to kill him because he saw that but finally could not?

I think it is the first option but I really wish they had cleared that up because it makes a big difference to how the audience sees Kylo's redemption. I hope the novelisation clears it up.

@panki

IMO yes to your first question and no to your second. I got the impression Ben had darkness (Snoke's influence) inside and was making poor choices, but wasn't planning a takeover or anything like that. Could totally be my headcanon but it read to me that Ben panicked and ran in for help but half the students didn't believe him and half did.
@MeadowofAshes

I agree with you. Look how young he looked. Look at how devastated and surprised his eyes were. Even Luke admitted that there was nothing evil in Ben when he woke up, that he saw nothing but a boy whose master had failed him. Snoke might have been torturing Ben all along, but Ben was holding on, because Ben still thought he had someone who loved him.  But then Luke stood over him with a lightsaber and didn't turn it off. Ben needed to defend himself even in Luke's "truthful" version.  Luke made Kylo Ren.
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Post by SoloSideCousin on Sat 16 Dec 2017, 11:50 am

@Darth Dingbat wrote:
@panki wrote:
@Darth Dingbat wrote:I'm thinking about the way they're telling the story of this trilogy as it seems a bit jarring. I mean, either haphazard or jarring OR something else that we don't yet know - take your pick. You basically have this character who was canonically failed, as a child and youth, by the adults close to him. The very point of the second film is his uncle's failure. But the trajectory they're doing with this is so weird. This failure and the childhood abuse he went through, which SHOULD be game-changing information, is downplayed to the point that a large chunk of the audience doesn't even see it. And this film was like, "Okay, there's more to this character... there's still a Ben beneath Kylo Ren... *gasp* And his uncle Luke contemplated killing him! But wait, he's Renperor now. Nevermind. Perhaps his uncle should have killed him when he had the chance, eh? But wait, look, now he's crying..."

None of this really makes sense unless they finally delve properly into this in IX and no longer try to downplay it or undercut it with his unpredictable villainy.

If, by any chance, Kylo were simply the villain now, and these details were there just to give him "complexity" which ultimately doesn't amount to anything significant... wow. Poor taste and tone-deaf to the extreme.

But like I said, I don't think that's the case. Both OT characters' arcs have been about Ben now. That's a pattern. This story is about Ben, I just have a hard time grasping how exactly they're telling it.
@Darth Dingbat

I think you might understand this, but Ben somewhat reminded me of Arcann from the EU (I could be way off with this)....I just wish the movie had given us a lttle more to go with in our understanding of Ben Solo.

- Was he being preyed upon by Snoke but holding it off until Luke looming over him frightened him + Vader lineage set him down a dark path?
- Were he and the students who left with him already planning a massacre instigated by Snoke, and did Luke want to kill him because he saw that but finally could not?

I think it is the first option but I really wish they had cleared that up because it makes a big difference to how the audience sees Kylo's redemption. I hope the novelisation clears it up.

@panki

Yes, I understand the Arcann comparison! Though more vulnerable, I'd say.

We're still no closer to understanding how the temple massacre or "massacre" even went down. Luke creeps up on Ben, Ben Force-pushes (?) him away, and the next thing you know Luke is digging himself out from under a pile of debris? Did Ben run straight to slaughter everybody, or did his fear and shock push him to the Dark Side with a literal BOOM of raw powah that caused death and destruction all around him?

Ben doesn't stay to finish off his uncle, and if Luke was knocked out under debris, looks like even he didn't know what exactly happened in the aftermath of their altercation.

It's either a mystery or not important to the story. I don't know.
@Darth Dingbat

Actually that is huge. Ben didn't kill Luke when he had the chance. I imagine the students got in a fight with each other and it was an armed battle. That's not murder. That's war. People would be armed.
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Post by Ynqve on Sat 16 Dec 2017, 11:54 am

@Darth Dingbat wrote:
@Ynqve wrote:
@Darth Dingbat wrote:
@panki wrote:
@Darth Dingbat wrote:I'm thinking about the way they're telling the story of this trilogy as it seems a bit jarring. I mean, either haphazard or jarring OR something else that we don't yet know - take your pick. You basically have this character who was canonically failed, as a child and youth, by the adults close to him. The very point of the second film is his uncle's failure. But the trajectory they're doing with this is so weird. This failure and the childhood abuse he went through, which SHOULD be game-changing information, is downplayed to the point that a large chunk of the audience doesn't even see it. And this film was like, "Okay, there's more to this character... there's still a Ben beneath Kylo Ren... *gasp* And his uncle Luke contemplated killing him! But wait, he's Renperor now. Nevermind. Perhaps his uncle should have killed him when he had the chance, eh? But wait, look, now he's crying..."

None of this really makes sense unless they finally delve properly into this in IX and no longer try to downplay it or undercut it with his unpredictable villainy.

If, by any chance, Kylo were simply the villain now, and these details were there just to give him "complexity" which ultimately doesn't amount to anything significant... wow. Poor taste and tone-deaf to the extreme.

But like I said, I don't think that's the case. Both OT characters' arcs have been about Ben now. That's a pattern. This story is about Ben, I just have a hard time grasping how exactly they're telling it.
@Darth Dingbat

I think you might understand this, but Ben somewhat reminded me of Arcann from the EU (I could be way off with this)....I just wish the movie had given us a lttle more to go with in our understanding of Ben Solo.

- Was he being preyed upon by Snoke but holding it off until Luke looming over him frightened him + Vader lineage set him down a dark path?
- Were he and the students who left with him already planning a massacre instigated by Snoke, and did Luke want to kill him because he saw that but finally could not?

I think it is the first option but I really wish they had cleared that up because it makes a big difference to how the audience sees Kylo's redemption. I hope the novelisation clears it up.

@panki

Yes, I understand the Arcann comparison! Though more vulnerable, I'd say.

We're still no closer to understanding how the temple massacre or "massacre" even went down. Luke creeps up on Ben, Ben Force-pushes (?) him away, and the next thing you know Luke is digging himself out from under a pile of debris? Did Ben run straight to slaughter everybody, or did his fear and shock push him to the Dark Side with a literal BOOM of raw powah that caused death and destruction all around him?

Ben doesn't stay to finish off his uncle, and if Luke was knocked out under debris, looks like even he didn't know what exactly happened in the aftermath of their altercation.

It's either a mystery or not important to the story. I don't know.
@Darth Dingbat

It's very important to know wth happened to the dead students. We need to know if Ben killed them and if he did murder them, we need to know why he did so. Force-pushing Luke is 100 % justified, killing the students is (probably) not. It's very important to his redemption.
@Ynqve

Oh, agreed. But after all the threads they seemed to drop with TLJ I'm kind of unsure what to expect answers for.
@Darth Dingbat

They better answer it or I'm going to have the exact same reaction to IX as you've had to TLJ. But they need to include the KoR in IX and because of that I think there's a very good chance that they explain what happened at the academy since I assume that the students who went with Ben is the KoR.

I just hope that JJ can pull it off.
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Post by MeadowofAshes on Sat 16 Dec 2017, 11:54 am

@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@MeadowofAshes wrote:
@panki wrote:
@Darth Dingbat wrote:I'm thinking about the way they're telling the story of this trilogy as it seems a bit jarring. I mean, either haphazard or jarring OR something else that we don't yet know - take your pick. You basically have this character who was canonically failed, as a child and youth, by the adults close to him. The very point of the second film is his uncle's failure. But the trajectory they're doing with this is so weird. This failure and the childhood abuse he went through, which SHOULD be game-changing information, is downplayed to the point that a large chunk of the audience doesn't even see it. And this film was like, "Okay, there's more to this character... there's still a Ben beneath Kylo Ren... *gasp* And his uncle Luke contemplated killing him! But wait, he's Renperor now. Nevermind. Perhaps his uncle should have killed him when he had the chance, eh? But wait, look, now he's crying..."

None of this really makes sense unless they finally delve properly into this in IX and no longer try to downplay it or undercut it with his unpredictable villainy.

If, by any chance, Kylo were simply the villain now, and these details were there just to give him "complexity" which ultimately doesn't amount to anything significant... wow. Poor taste and tone-deaf to the extreme.

But like I said, I don't think that's the case. Both OT characters' arcs have been about Ben now. That's a pattern. This story is about Ben, I just have a hard time grasping how exactly they're telling it.
@Darth Dingbat

I think you might understand this, but Ben somewhat reminded me of Arcann from the EU (I could be way off with this)....I just wish the movie had given us a lttle more to go with in our understanding of Ben Solo.

- Was he being preyed upon by Snoke but holding it off until Luke looming over him frightened him + Vader lineage set him down a dark path?
- Were he and the students who left with him already planning a massacre instigated by Snoke, and did Luke want to kill him because he saw that but finally could not?

I think it is the first option but I really wish they had cleared that up because it makes a big difference to how the audience sees Kylo's redemption. I hope the novelisation clears it up.

@panki

IMO yes to your first question and no to your second. I got the impression Ben had darkness (Snoke's influence) inside and was making poor choices, but wasn't planning a takeover or anything like that. Could totally be my headcanon but it read to me that Ben panicked and ran in for help but half the students didn't believe him and half did.
@MeadowofAshes

I agree with you. Look how young he looked. Look at how devastated and surprised his eyes were. Even Luke admitted that there was nothing evil in Ben when he woke up, that he saw nothing but a boy whose master had failed him. Snoke might have been torturing Ben all along, but Ben was holding on, because Ben still thought he had someone who loved him.  But then Luke stood over him with a lightsaber and didn't turn it off. Ben needed to defend himself even in Luke's "truthful" version.  Luke made Kylo Ren.
@SoloSideCousin

Amen sister. Kylo Ren is Skywalker's monster.
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Post by ISeeAnIsland on Sat 16 Dec 2017, 12:05 pm

Regardless of what happens with the KoR (or if they're ever seen again), I think it's important that they threw in that half the students went with Ben. I think that heavily implies that half the students believed Ben and half didn't. And for all of the buildup of the temple "massacre", it sounds like only 6 students were killed...likely students that either wouldn't help Ben or were possibly even attacking him.
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