Snoke is a Child Predator and the Skywalker-Solos Failed to Protect Ben: Canon

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Post by Darth Dingbat on Sat 16 Dec 2017, 12:10 pm

@ISeeAnIsland wrote:Regardless of what happens with the KoR (or if they're ever seen again), I think it's important that they threw in that half the students went with Ben. I think that heavily implies that half the students believed Ben and half didn't. And for all of the buildup of the temple "massacre", it sounds like only 6 students were killed...likely students that either wouldn't help Ben or were possibly even attacking him.
@ISeeAnIsland

I thought it was interesting that it was literally half and half.
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Post by MeadowofAshes on Sat 16 Dec 2017, 12:41 pm

@ISeeAnIsland wrote:Regardless of what happens with the KoR (or if they're ever seen again), I think it's important that they threw in that half the students went with Ben. I think that heavily implies that half the students believed Ben and half didn't. And for all of the buildup of the temple "massacre", it sounds like only 6 students were killed...likely students that either wouldn't help Ben or were possibly even attacking him.
@ISeeAnIsland

I very much agree. And I'm inclined to think Ben ran for help and half the students didn't believe his story and attacked.

I like that Luke had 12 disciples BTW.
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Post by motherofpearl1 on Sat 16 Dec 2017, 12:58 pm

@rey09 wrote:Soo just came back from watching the movie. Lots of thoughts...the Snoke Ben thing was a miss. Like it was too rused and didn't even tell you much about it!! All you see is that Luke sensed lots of darkness, it was too late Snoke already got him and he tried to kill him. And then they just all this mopey Kylo is actually manipulative Kylo? I mean I think Kylo is still in the denial phase. He knows he has good on him but he hasn't come to terms. People who vouch for Evil Kylo are happy...I have no doubt he will become good again though.
@rey09

Actually I see Hux as evil...but not Kylo. He's hurting. And unlike Hux he has a conscience.
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Post by Chris24601 on Sat 16 Dec 2017, 1:08 pm

@ISeeAnIsland wrote:Regardless of what happens with the KoR (or if they're ever seen again), I think it's important that they threw in that half the students went with Ben. I think that heavily implies that half the students believed Ben and half didn't. And for all of the buildup of the temple "massacre", it sounds like only 6 students were killed...likely students that either wouldn't help Ben or were possibly even attacking him.
What I find horrifying/fascinating is that apparently there is a quote from RJ in the "Art of The Last Jedi" book stating that Ben's version of events (i.e. Luke actually attacking him) is the TRUE version and that Luke's explanation afterwards was the lie. Then throw in that it was Luke continually prodding Leia to let him train Ben because of his potential (i.e. basically the same motivation as Snoke) and his parents thinking that was a great idea.

When I heard that I went from thinking Ben made the mistake with Rey in the end to thinking Rey made the mistake in not standing with Ben in the end. Poor Ben probably just wanted to fly around the galaxy with his father, but instead he gets shipped off to an uncle who wanted to "channel his greatness" and ended up trying to murder him in his sleep.

The one thing I can kinda take solace in is, ironically, the Knights of Ren.

From what we know of the "massacre" right now, Luke probably had about a dozen students in addition to Ben and the "massacre" began when Luke tried to murder Ben in his sleep because he sensed Snoke's darkness in him. Ben awoke at the last moment and lashed out to defend himself and blew up part of the academy and buried Luke in the debris.

My hunch is that six of the students acted without even waiting for an explanation and attacked Ben because he "attacked" Luke and Ben killed them in self-defense. So now he's been abandoned by his parents and turned on by his beloved uncle/mentor AND his peers as well. If a lightsaber crystal mirrors its master no wonder Ben's is cracked and tortured until it bled... its literally the mirror of his own soul; shattered and tortured.

The one bright spot is that the other half of the students apparently actually listened to Ben and believed him and left Luke's academy with him. THEY actually had Ben's back. Who knew the frakking Knights OF Ren were actually the GOOD GUYS!?!

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Post by rey09 on Sat 16 Dec 2017, 1:16 pm

@motherofpearl1 wrote:
@rey09 wrote:Soo just came back from watching the movie. Lots of thoughts...the Snoke Ben thing was a miss. Like it was too rused and didn't even tell you much about it!! All you see is that Luke sensed lots of darkness, it was too late Snoke already got him and he tried to kill him. And then they just all this mopey Kylo is actually manipulative Kylo? I mean I think Kylo is still in the denial phase. He knows he has good on him but he hasn't come to terms. People who vouch for Evil Kylo are happy...I have no doubt he will become good again though.
@rey09

Actually I see Hux as evil...but not Kylo. He's hurting. And unlike Hux he has a conscience.
@motherofpearl1 I found Hux actually pretty damn hilarious. Could not take him seriously. Kylo though...breaking my heart left and right. I do think he will turn good. I like what people are saying- it's a love triangle with Rey Ben and Kylo loll. Rey loves Ben, but not Kylo. I fully expect a reylo kiss by the end of it. after all that...to not have a kiss is utter madness.

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Post by ZioRen on Sat 16 Dec 2017, 1:22 pm

@cherrylipstick wrote:
@DarthRen wrote:
@MeadowofAshes wrote:Han needed to reach down and see if he could find the balls to stand up to Leia and actually protect their son.
@MeadowofAshes

Han had more courage than Luke and Leia combined. I know, not saying much because he still failed Ben. Han was at least willing to die and he realized his mistakes, was honest about it, forgive Kylo/Ben for his death and Kylo/Ben almost went with him. Compare that with smug matrix Jesus like figure Luke contronting Kylo/Ben.
@DarthRen
Perfectly said.
The last scene with Han and Ben/Kylo was really touching, realistic and intense. This one one with Luke on the contrary... I really don't know why they decided to use that mocking tone, I found it annoying and it made the scene less powerful.
@cherrylipstick

This continues to bother me too. Maybe they plan to do more legwork between Kylo and Force ghost Luke in IX, but the tone felt entirely off in the final battle considering the revelation we had earlier. So did Luke's reunion with Leia. It's like everything was tainted by that reveal, especially since it's unclear whether Leia knows the truth as she writes her son off for good.

In that final showdown, Luke is facing the full extent of his failure, seeing how wrecked Kylo is, knowing how decimated the Resistance is and how hopeless a situation his sister is in, and what he cries over is the fact that he's not the last Jedi? He's crying over Rey? It feels like so many aspects of this story don't come to the emotional conclusion they should, second chapter or not.


Last edited by ZioRen on Sat 16 Dec 2017, 1:42 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by ZioRen on Sat 16 Dec 2017, 1:28 pm

@Chris24601 wrote:
@ISeeAnIsland wrote:Regardless of what happens with the KoR (or if they're ever seen again), I think it's important that they threw in that half the students went with Ben. I think that heavily implies that half the students believed Ben and half didn't. And for all of the buildup of the temple "massacre", it sounds like only 6 students were killed...likely students that either wouldn't help Ben or were possibly even attacking him.
What I find horrifying/fascinating is that apparently there is a quote from RJ in the "Art of The Last Jedi" book stating that Ben's version of events (i.e. Luke actually attacking him) is the TRUE version and that Luke's explanation afterwards was the lie. Then throw in that it was Luke continually prodding Leia to let him train Ben because of his potential (i.e. basically the same motivation as Snoke) and his parents thinking that was a great idea.

When I heard that I went from thinking Ben made the mistake with Rey in the end to thinking Rey made the mistake in not standing with Ben in the end. Poor Ben probably just wanted to fly around the galaxy with his father, but instead he gets shipped off to an uncle who wanted to "channel his greatness" and ended up trying to murder him in his sleep.

The one thing I can kinda take solace in is, ironically, the Knights of Ren.

From what we know of the "massacre" right now, Luke probably had about a dozen students in addition to Ben and the "massacre" began when Luke tried to murder Ben in his sleep because he sensed Snoke's darkness in him. Ben awoke at the last moment and lashed out to defend himself and blew up part of the academy and buried Luke in the debris.

My hunch is that six of the students acted without even waiting for an explanation and attacked Ben because he "attacked" Luke and Ben killed them in self-defense. So now he's been abandoned by his parents and turned on by his beloved uncle/mentor AND his peers as well. If a lightsaber crystal mirrors its master no wonder Ben's is cracked and tortured until it bled... its literally the mirror of his own soul; shattered and tortured.

The one bright spot is that the other half of the students apparently actually listened to Ben and believed him and left Luke's academy with him. THEY actually had Ben's back. Who knew the frakking Knights OF Ren were actually the GOOD GUYS!?!
@Chris24601

The only lie was the first version Luke told Rey. Both Kylo and Luke's final telling of the event are correct. Luke is telling the full truth, Kylo is telling the truth from his point of view. Neither is lying about it by the end.
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Post by MeadowofAshes on Sat 16 Dec 2017, 1:37 pm

@Chris24601 wrote:
@ISeeAnIsland wrote:Regardless of what happens with the KoR (or if they're ever seen again), I think it's important that they threw in that half the students went with Ben. I think that heavily implies that half the students believed Ben and half didn't. And for all of the buildup of the temple "massacre", it sounds like only 6 students were killed...likely students that either wouldn't help Ben or were possibly even attacking him.
What I find horrifying/fascinating is that apparently there is a quote from RJ in the "Art of The Last Jedi" book stating that Ben's version of events (i.e. Luke actually attacking him) is the TRUE version and that Luke's explanation afterwards was the lie. Then throw in that it was Luke continually prodding Leia to let him train Ben because of his potential (i.e. basically the same motivation as Snoke) and his parents thinking that was a great idea.

When I heard that I went from thinking Ben made the mistake with Rey in the end to thinking Rey made the mistake in not standing with Ben in the end. Poor Ben probably just wanted to fly around the galaxy with his father, but instead he gets shipped off to an uncle who wanted to "channel his greatness" and ended up trying to murder him in his sleep.

The one thing I can kinda take solace in is, ironically, the Knights of Ren.

From what we know of the "massacre" right now, Luke probably had about a dozen students in addition to Ben and the "massacre" began when Luke tried to murder Ben in his sleep because he sensed Snoke's darkness in him. Ben awoke at the last moment and lashed out to defend himself and blew up part of the academy and buried Luke in the debris.

My hunch is that six of the students acted without even waiting for an explanation and attacked Ben because he "attacked" Luke and Ben killed them in self-defense. So now he's been abandoned by his parents and turned on by his beloved uncle/mentor AND his peers as well. If a lightsaber crystal mirrors its master no wonder Ben's is cracked and tortured until it bled... its literally the mirror of his own soul; shattered and tortured.

The one bright spot is that the other half of the students apparently actually listened to Ben and believed him and left Luke's academy with him. THEY actually had Ben's back. Who knew the frakking Knights OF Ren were actually the GOOD GUYS!?!
@Chris24601

Sure explains why Ben "didn't hate" (aka he adored) his father but found him to be weak, foolish, and a disappointment. He needed his father to stand up for him and Han didn't until it was too late.
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Post by DarthRen on Sun 17 Dec 2017, 4:41 am

@ZioRen wrote:
@cherrylipstick wrote:
@DarthRen wrote:
@MeadowofAshes wrote:Han needed to reach down and see if he could find the balls to stand up to Leia and actually protect their son.
@MeadowofAshes

Han had more courage than Luke and Leia combined. I know, not saying much because he still failed Ben. Han was at least willing to die and he realized his mistakes, was honest about it, forgive Kylo/Ben for his death and Kylo/Ben almost went with him. Compare that with smug matrix Jesus like figure Luke contronting Kylo/Ben.
@DarthRen
Perfectly said.
The last scene with Han and Ben/Kylo was really touching, realistic and intense. This one one with Luke on the contrary... I really don't know why they decided to use that mocking tone, I found it annoying and it made the scene less powerful.
@cherrylipstick

This continues to bother me too. Maybe they plan to do more legwork between Kylo and Force ghost Luke in IX, but the tone felt entirely off in the final battle considering the revelation we had earlier. So did Luke's reunion with Leia. It's like everything was tainted by that reveal, especially since it's unclear whether Leia knows the truth as she writes her son off for good.

In that final showdown, Luke is facing the full extent of his failure, seeing how wrecked Kylo is, knowing how decimated the Resistance is and how hopeless a situation his sister is in, and what he cries over is the fact that he's not the last Jedi? He's crying over Rey? It feels like so many aspects of this story don't come to the emotional conclusion they should, second chapter or not.
@ZioRen

Luke cried over the fact he failed Ben, the Jedi, the Ressistance and his sister by letting to come to that point but also showed us there is a hope for the Rebellion, the jedi and Ben. At least that is my interpretation but could be wrong.

@ISeeAnIsland wrote:Regardless of what happens with the KoR (or if they're ever seen again), I think it's important that they threw in that half the students went with Ben. I think that heavily implies that half the students believed Ben and half didn't. And for all of the buildup of the temple "massacre", it sounds like only 6 students were killed...likely students that either wouldn't help Ben or were possibly even attacking him.
@ISeeAnIsland

Knight of Ren would be only fitting to guard Supereme Leader Ren.
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Post by SoloSideCousin on Sun 17 Dec 2017, 8:32 am

@DarthRen wrote:
@ZioRen wrote:
@cherrylipstick wrote:
@DarthRen wrote:
@MeadowofAshes wrote:Han needed to reach down and see if he could find the balls to stand up to Leia and actually protect their son.
@MeadowofAshes

Han had more courage than Luke and Leia combined. I know, not saying much because he still failed Ben. Han was at least willing to die and he realized his mistakes, was honest about it, forgive Kylo/Ben for his death and Kylo/Ben almost went with him. Compare that with smug matrix Jesus like figure Luke contronting Kylo/Ben.
@DarthRen
Perfectly said.
The last scene with Han and Ben/Kylo was really touching, realistic and intense. This one one with Luke on the contrary... I really don't know why they decided to use that mocking tone, I found it annoying and it made the scene less powerful.
@cherrylipstick

This continues to bother me too. Maybe they plan to do more legwork between Kylo and Force ghost Luke in IX, but the tone felt entirely off in the final battle considering the revelation we had earlier. So did Luke's reunion with Leia. It's like everything was tainted by that reveal, especially since it's unclear whether Leia knows the truth as she writes her son off for good.

In that final showdown, Luke is facing the full extent of his failure, seeing how wrecked Kylo is, knowing how decimated the Resistance is and how hopeless a situation his sister is in, and what he cries over is the fact that he's not the last Jedi? He's crying over Rey? It feels like so many aspects of this story don't come to the emotional conclusion they should, second chapter or not.
@ZioRen

Luke cried over the fact he failed Ben, the Jedi, the Ressistance and his sister by letting to come to that point but also showed us there is a hope for the Rebellion, the jedi and Ben. At least that is my interpretation but could be wrong.

@ISeeAnIsland wrote:Regardless of what happens with the KoR (or if they're ever seen again), I think it's important that they threw in that half the students went with Ben. I think that heavily implies that half the students believed Ben and half didn't. And for all of the buildup of the temple "massacre", it sounds like only 6 students were killed...likely students that either wouldn't help Ben or were possibly even attacking him.
@ISeeAnIsland

Knight of Ren would be only fitting to guard Supereme Leader Ren.
@DarthRen

Yes!!!! The KoR will be Kylo's guys. If not, it will be a missed opportunity.  Actually if they are, Hux's coup may not go so well and there could be a civil war between Kylo and Hux with the Resistance thrown in. The Rebellion and Republic of old are dead. The Empire/FO will be destroyed because they will go into civil war. The grassroots uprising will create the new thing. Kylo/Ben is actually right. Let the past die. Kill it if you have to. (The old galaxy politics). That's the only way that you can be one what you are meant to be.
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Post by DarthRen on Sun 17 Dec 2017, 10:54 am

@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@DarthRen wrote:
@ZioRen wrote:
@cherrylipstick wrote:
@DarthRen wrote:
@MeadowofAshes wrote:Han needed to reach down and see if he could find the balls to stand up to Leia and actually protect their son.
@MeadowofAshes

Han had more courage than Luke and Leia combined. I know, not saying much because he still failed Ben. Han was at least willing to die and he realized his mistakes, was honest about it, forgive Kylo/Ben for his death and Kylo/Ben almost went with him. Compare that with smug matrix Jesus like figure Luke contronting Kylo/Ben.
@DarthRen
Perfectly said.
The last scene with Han and Ben/Kylo was really touching, realistic and intense. This one one with Luke on the contrary... I really don't know why they decided to use that mocking tone, I found it annoying and it made the scene less powerful.
@cherrylipstick

This continues to bother me too. Maybe they plan to do more legwork between Kylo and Force ghost Luke in IX, but the tone felt entirely off in the final battle considering the revelation we had earlier. So did Luke's reunion with Leia. It's like everything was tainted by that reveal, especially since it's unclear whether Leia knows the truth as she writes her son off for good.

In that final showdown, Luke is facing the full extent of his failure, seeing how wrecked Kylo is, knowing how decimated the Resistance is and how hopeless a situation his sister is in, and what he cries over is the fact that he's not the last Jedi? He's crying over Rey? It feels like so many aspects of this story don't come to the emotional conclusion they should, second chapter or not.
@ZioRen

Luke cried over the fact he failed Ben, the Jedi, the Ressistance and his sister by letting to come to that point but also showed us there is a hope for the Rebellion, the jedi and Ben. At least that is my interpretation but could be wrong.

@ISeeAnIsland wrote:Regardless of what happens with the KoR (or if they're ever seen again), I think it's important that they threw in that half the students went with Ben. I think that heavily implies that half the students believed Ben and half didn't. And for all of the buildup of the temple "massacre", it sounds like only 6 students were killed...likely students that either wouldn't help Ben or were possibly even attacking him.
@ISeeAnIsland

Knight of Ren would be only fitting to guard Supereme Leader Ren.
@DarthRen

Yes!!!! The KoR will be Kylo's guys. If not, it will be a missed opportunity.  Actually if they are, Hux's coup may not go so well and there could be a civil war between Kylo and Hux with the Resistance thrown in. The Rebellion and Republic of old are dead. The Empire/FO will be destroyed because they will go into civil war. The grassroots uprising will create the new thing. Kylo/Ben is actually right. Let the past die. Kill it if you have to. (The old galaxy politics). That's the only way that you can be one what you are meant to be.
@SoloSideCousin

Remember JJ is huge fan of Knights of Ren and wanted to make a film about them, they'll be there. Wink

IMO Knights of Ren might the only thing come the end of IX that Kylo has, Hux might usurp FO from under his nose. Things simply will not go smoothly because Hux is equally influental as Kylo or will be. No matter if Kylo is Supreme Leader, I bet there will be difficulties and he'll get bertayed, its a theme of his arc. If it goes like just that Rey needs to kill Kylo, then it would be boring. It'll get much more complicated and I can see Kylo going rogue asa result of this.
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Post by motherofpearl1 on Sun 17 Dec 2017, 11:02 am

I wonder if they both will......that scene where DJ tells Finn the Resistance used arms dealers were creepy. I feel sorry for Rose, she devoted her life to the Resistance little realising the were as responsible for the ravaging of her home planet as the FO. Oooh....I have a headcanon where Rey, Kylo, Finn AND Rose team up together!
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