Kylo vs Hux as Leaders/The First Order thread

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Re: Kylo vs Hux as Leaders/The First Order thread

Post by SoloSideCousin on Thu 25 Jan 2018, 12:25 pm

@ISeeAnIsland wrote:
@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@nickandnora wrote:
I actually like Poe's arc in TLJ, but now that he's apparently grown into a good responsible leader and Finn has become a good Rebel Scum, and Rose is a good earnest Resistance girl, it's hard to see what growth or drama is left to do.
I don't know, Poe misquoting Holdo at the end there when he was having his big revelation (the spark that will "burn the First Order" versus "restore the Republic" contrasted with Rose's "not killing what we hate, but saving what we love") was pretty damn subversive and sneaky and basically tells me everything I need to know about how the conflict *within* the Resistance is going to play out next film. Whether Poe actually continues to learn in the next film as a result of whatever conflict ensues, or is taken down because of it remains to be seen, but I think there's a lot of potential there.
@nickandnora

I am holding onto that bit for dear life as a sign that the Kumbaya MF is a subversion, because if not Rian effed up mightily and completely negated all the awesome reality and groundbreaking nature of the first 2/3 of the movie. And even worse, he genuinely thinks we should sympathize with no remorse Poe and those Kumbaya idiots on the Falcon. But worst of all, it says that making the long-term abused kid, whose uncle came this close to killing the only whipping boy and the only one to face consequences to be right and good, when it is not at all.
@SoloSideCousin

I don't know that we'll get an outright subversion of Kumbaya MF, but I don't think there's any evidence whatsoever that Poe will react in a positive/constructive way to finding out about the Force Bond between Rey and Ben...especially if that bond is still active (and why wouldn't it be?) and word spreads that Kylo is now Supreme Leader. Poe is either going to be p***** and won't trust Rey, he'll want to exploit that bond (and I think him wanting to exploit the bond is going to be more likely). I can't see Rey going for that...she's not going to want to be used as a tool against Kylo/Ben.

I mean if there's any sort of a significant time jump, JJ could just push everything that happened in the throne room under the rug for IX, but there's a lot more dramatic potential in Poe, et al, finding out about what happened in the Throne Room and Rey's role in it. Being Rey, I suspect that she'll keep quiet about it at first, but if word gets out that the FO think that Rey was the one who killed Snoke, of course, the Resistance will have questions about that.
@ISeeAnIsland

I could definitely see something like that happening, but I am really start to question Rian's perception of who you should sympathize with, as I think I just read someone this morning that Rian wanted Luke to "hand Kylo his lunch" in some recent podcast. If that's how Rian looked at that scene ... Well, (1) the dude didn't hit that mark with me and is probably even more of a Luke Stan than we thought and a lot more of a traditionalist than we thought, and (2) here's hoping JJ gets it better!
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Re: Kylo vs Hux as Leaders/The First Order thread

Post by nickandnora on Thu 25 Jan 2018, 12:34 pm

The way I see it, there are four main players they set up to be at the forefront of the next generation of the FO/Resistance: Kylo, Rey, Finn, and Poe. I think, this past film being about failure, each main player was given the tools to learn from their failure and move forward. The mistake I think people are making (not people here, just in general) when critiquing the ending is assuming that we've actually SEEN the moments when these four characters *apply* what they learned in this movie and move forward. That's really going to be in the next film. They were just given the material of which to chew on at the end of this film.

Kylo's ending is the most obviously tortured and in limbo. And Rey has a lot of fans pissed because it seems like she just reverted back to the status quo, but that was likely a coping mechanism to deal with the earth shattering nature of what happened in the throne room and we'll see the fallout of that next film.

Poe's story DEFINITELY has all the appearances of being something that was "resolved" ("Hey look, he made mistakes, learned from them and is moving forward as a leader!!!11!!) But I don't actually see him as any different than the other three. He *thinks* he's learned, but he messes up the wording of the actual lesson... not significant if this was real life, but almost certainly significant because this was something that Rian Johnson wrote into the script. I refuse to believe it was accidental. Poe is a great example of what can happen when someone with pure charisma and charm are allowed to go virtually unchecked. I imagine they will continue exploring that next film, to some degree (as I've said, it's up in the air as to how far they'll go with it, but I definitely think it will continue to be a theme).

Finn... well, Finn is the most complicated and the most simple at the same time. When you look at him at the end of the film, he's the one (aside from Kylo) who actually seems to still be processing things (what Rose said to him, how he feels about her, what his place in all this is, etc.) But the "lessons" he learned seem to be the most disconnected to where he probably has to go moving forward. Basically, I think Finn's probably the film's most poorly written character, which is a shame. Luckily there's lots of time to course correct next film.

Hopefully that made some sense. Smile

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Re: Kylo vs Hux as Leaders/The First Order thread

Post by snufkin on Thu 25 Jan 2018, 2:32 pm

@SoloSideCousin - I know! I mean, I still can't believe they went for it with Carrie Fisher's old crack about having the villain and the heroine having an affair and all the blatant (WTF are the people claiming they could still be reylated or that it's just platonic smoking?) sexual references/imagery. But I'll be surprised if we get more than just DeGrassi Junior High in Space when it comes to the Resistance (who inspired the name of a real life movement that's 100 times more interesting to follow and feel affiliated with than its name source). Or if they make actual use of Oscar Isaac's ability to play Poe as the type of well-meaning but weird, conflicted, shifty characters like he did in Show Me a Hero or A Most Dangerous Year. Or even just like how Diego Luna walked off with Rogue One by playing Cassian as somebody committed to a cause to the point that he was willing to get blood on his hands and sacrifice his own humanity. I mean, maybe that's my version of "JJ will fix everything that Rian screwed up!" God, I at least hope they get something like the different factions showed in Rogue One because that was one of the parts which made it worth sitting through. And we already have a situation set up between Kylo and Hux where you know they're not going to be golf buddies, so somebody somewhere show more to the story than boring good guys versus boring bad guys.

@ISeeAnIsland - yeah I want ALLLLLL the fallout from that. Especially because as far as the Resistance knows, Rey was with Luke Skywalker on their behalf. Not off having tete-a-tetes and hand holding sessions with their enemy while making heart eyes at one another and helping him take over as Supreme Ruler of the Galaxy.
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Re: Kylo vs Hux as Leaders/The First Order thread

Post by CienaRee on Thu 25 Jan 2018, 3:10 pm

@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@ISeeAnIsland wrote:
@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@nickandnora wrote:
I actually like Poe's arc in TLJ, but now that he's apparently grown into a good responsible leader and Finn has become a good Rebel Scum, and Rose is a good earnest Resistance girl, it's hard to see what growth or drama is left to do.
I don't know, Poe misquoting Holdo at the end there when he was having his big revelation (the spark that will "burn the First Order" versus "restore the Republic" contrasted with Rose's "not killing what we hate, but saving what we love") was pretty damn subversive and sneaky and basically tells me everything I need to know about how the conflict *within* the Resistance is going to play out next film. Whether Poe actually continues to learn in the next film as a result of whatever conflict ensues, or is taken down because of it remains to be seen, but I think there's a lot of potential there.
@nickandnora

I am holding onto that bit for dear life as a sign that the Kumbaya MF is a subversion, because if not Rian effed up mightily and completely negated all the awesome reality and groundbreaking nature of the first 2/3 of the movie. And even worse, he genuinely thinks we should sympathize with no remorse Poe and those Kumbaya idiots on the Falcon. But worst of all, it says that making the long-term abused kid, whose uncle came this close to killing the only whipping boy and the only one to face consequences to be right and good, when it is not at all.
@SoloSideCousin

I don't know that we'll get an outright subversion of Kumbaya MF, but I don't think there's any evidence whatsoever that Poe will react in a positive/constructive way to finding out about the Force Bond between Rey and Ben...especially if that bond is still active (and why wouldn't it be?) and word spreads that Kylo is now Supreme Leader. Poe is either going to be p***** and won't trust Rey, he'll want to exploit that bond (and I think him wanting to exploit the bond is going to be more likely). I can't see Rey going for that...she's not going to want to be used as a tool against Kylo/Ben.

I mean if there's any sort of a significant time jump, JJ could just push everything that happened in the throne room under the rug for IX, but there's a lot more dramatic potential in Poe, et al, finding out about what happened in the Throne Room and Rey's role in it. Being Rey, I suspect that she'll keep quiet about it at first, but if word gets out that the FO think that Rey was the one who killed Snoke, of course, the Resistance will have questions about that.
@ISeeAnIsland

I could definitely see something like that happening, but I am really start to question Rian's perception of who you should sympathize with, as I think I just read someone this morning that Rian wanted Luke to "hand Kylo his lunch" in some recent podcast. If that's how Rian looked at that scene ... Well, (1) the dude didn't hit that mark with me and is probably even more of a Luke Stan than we thought and a lot more of a traditionalist than we thought, and (2) here's hoping JJ gets it better!
@SoloSideCousin

Yeah,nothing against Rian personally but I get the impression that while he does seem to love Kylo he's a major Luke stan while in JJ's case it's obvious that Kylo's his baby and he loves the Solo man more than Luke,not saying he hates him or anything but that's how I'm reading his comments.
I'm sorry but I find it very troubling that Kylo who's an abused victim is being painted as someone who got his ''lunch served''by the uncle who tried to murder him,it's like saying that he deserves what he's getting and he's the one at fault when he was prayed by Snoke since he was a baby and used by Luke for his might Skywalker blood.Yes,Luke was regretful and he admitted to having failed Ben but that doesn't negate the fact that Ben will probably be traumatized by that for the rest of his life.
I just hate it when writers write these metaphors for serious issues like abuse in RL then sweep it under the rug/don't take responsibility for having written it that way.I don't want to think that applies to Rian because he's super nice guy and most of TLJ was written in a very complex way but yeah not a fan of those comments at all. You can still root for Luke becoming a hero again without implying that it's right for Kylo to be punished for the lasting trauma he has and for feeling his family let him down.
In retrospect seeing how Luke and Ben's confrontation played out makes Han's death even more heartbreaking because while Han wasn't the best father he could have been to Ben and did give up on him for a while at the end he sacrificed his life in order to bring his son back and died loving him without any judgment(seriously Han's final thoughts in TFA junior novelization aways break my heart because he does realize how much he failed his son and was hoping he would forgive him some day).

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Re: Kylo vs Hux as Leaders/The First Order thread

Post by ZioRen on Thu 25 Jan 2018, 3:18 pm

@CienaRee wrote:
@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@ISeeAnIsland wrote:
@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@nickandnora wrote:
I actually like Poe's arc in TLJ, but now that he's apparently grown into a good responsible leader and Finn has become a good Rebel Scum, and Rose is a good earnest Resistance girl, it's hard to see what growth or drama is left to do.
I don't know, Poe misquoting Holdo at the end there when he was having his big revelation (the spark that will "burn the First Order" versus "restore the Republic" contrasted with Rose's "not killing what we hate, but saving what we love") was pretty damn subversive and sneaky and basically tells me everything I need to know about how the conflict *within* the Resistance is going to play out next film. Whether Poe actually continues to learn in the next film as a result of whatever conflict ensues, or is taken down because of it remains to be seen, but I think there's a lot of potential there.
@nickandnora

I am holding onto that bit for dear life as a sign that the Kumbaya MF is a subversion, because if not Rian effed up mightily and completely negated all the awesome reality and groundbreaking nature of the first 2/3 of the movie. And even worse, he genuinely thinks we should sympathize with no remorse Poe and those Kumbaya idiots on the Falcon. But worst of all, it says that making the long-term abused kid, whose uncle came this close to killing the only whipping boy and the only one to face consequences to be right and good, when it is not at all.
@SoloSideCousin

I don't know that we'll get an outright subversion of Kumbaya MF, but I don't think there's any evidence whatsoever that Poe will react in a positive/constructive way to finding out about the Force Bond between Rey and Ben...especially if that bond is still active (and why wouldn't it be?) and word spreads that Kylo is now Supreme Leader. Poe is either going to be p***** and won't trust Rey, he'll want to exploit that bond (and I think him wanting to exploit the bond is going to be more likely). I can't see Rey going for that...she's not going to want to be used as a tool against Kylo/Ben.

I mean if there's any sort of a significant time jump, JJ could just push everything that happened in the throne room under the rug for IX, but there's a lot more dramatic potential in Poe, et al, finding out about what happened in the Throne Room and Rey's role in it. Being Rey, I suspect that she'll keep quiet about it at first, but if word gets out that the FO think that Rey was the one who killed Snoke, of course, the Resistance will have questions about that.
@ISeeAnIsland

I could definitely see something like that happening, but I am really start to question Rian's perception of who you should sympathize with, as I think I just read someone this morning that Rian wanted Luke to "hand Kylo his lunch" in some recent podcast. If that's how Rian looked at that scene ... Well, (1) the dude didn't hit that mark with me and is probably even more of a Luke Stan than we thought and a lot more of a traditionalist than we thought, and (2) here's hoping JJ gets it better!
@SoloSideCousin

Yeah,nothing against Rian personally but I get the impression that while he does seem to love Kylo he's a major Luke stan while in JJ's case it's obvious that Kylo's his baby and he loves the Solo man more than Luke,not saying he hates him or anything but that's how I'm reading his comments.
I'm sorry but I find it very troubling that Kylo who's an abused victim is being painted as someone who got his ''lunch served''by the uncle who tried to murder him,it's like saying that he deserves what he's getting and he's the one at fault when he was prayed by Snoke since he was a baby and used by Luke for his might Skywalker blood.Yes,Luke was regretful and he admitted to having failed Ben but that doesn't negate the fact that Ben will probably be traumatized by that for the rest of his life.
I just hate it when writers write these metaphors for serious issues like abuse in RL then sweep it under the rug/don't take responsibility for having written it that way.I don't want to think that applies to Rian because he's super nice guy and most of TLJ was written in a very complex way but yeah not a fan of those comments at all. You can still root for Luke becoming a hero again without implying that it's right for Kylo to be punished for the lasting trauma he has and for feeling his family let him down.
In retrospect seeing how Luke and Ben's confrontation played out makes Han's death even more heartbreaking because while Han wasn't the best father he could have been to Ben and did give up on him for a while at the end he sacrificed his life in order to bring his son back and died loving him without any judgment(seriously Han's final thoughts in TFA junior novelization aways break my heart because he does realize how much he failed his son and was hoping he would forgive him some day).
@CienaRee

I was sort of vaguing on this in another thread but agreed with nearly all of these points. I think out of anything, Luke comparing himself to Han in the "If you strike me down in anger, I'll always be with you, just like your father" line rubs me strongest the wrong way. Like dude, how is what happened to Han in any way comparable to you? I'm sure Kylo takes lots of comfort in his would-be murderer (in his sleep, before he'd done anything, and it doesn't matter from Kylo's end that Luke wasn't going to actually do it even if he knew that) promising that he'll stay with him and "see him around". I still feel like Rian created a very disturbing background for Kylo and then proceeded to act like it wasn't really a big deal in that final confrontation scene, where Luke is supposed to be the big western-style hero.

Luke has a place in teaching Kylo the lesson of failure possibly more than anyone, but in absolutely no way does he have any right to "serve Kylo his lunch" after what went down back then.
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Re: Kylo vs Hux as Leaders/The First Order thread

Post by SkyStar on Thu 25 Jan 2018, 4:18 pm

@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@nickandnora wrote:
I actually like Poe's arc in TLJ, but now that he's apparently grown into a good responsible leader and Finn has become a good Rebel Scum, and Rose is a good earnest Resistance girl, it's hard to see what growth or drama is left to do.
I don't know, Poe misquoting Holdo at the end there when he was having his big revelation (the spark that will "burn the First Order" versus "restore the Republic" contrasted with Rose's "not killing what we hate, but saving what we love") was pretty damn subversive and sneaky and basically tells me everything I need to know about how the conflict *within* the Resistance is going to play out next film. Whether Poe actually continues to learn in the next film as a result of whatever conflict ensues, or is taken down because of it remains to be seen, but I think there's a lot of potential there.
@nickandnora

I am holding onto that bit for dear life as a sign that the Kumbaya MF is a subversion, because if not Rian effed up mightily and completely negated all the awesome reality and groundbreaking nature of the first 2/3 of the movie. And even worse, he genuinely thinks we should sympathize with no remorse Poe and those Kumbaya idiots on the Falcon. But worst of all, it says that making the long-term abused kid, whose uncle came this close to killing the only whipping boy and the only one to face consequences to be right and good, when it is not at all.
@SoloSideCousin

I was reading an essay about how pop culture is obsessed with the good vs evil battles and it just feels like with TLJ Rian tried to have a cake and eat it too.
There are two groups that are divided by their virtue and values as usual (Resistance - helping the animals, the poor, oppressed vs FO - enslaving, brainwashing, feeling of entitlement).
We should root for the good guys, but this time something is wrong. I believe that Kylo is the reason. He is an individuality whose values serve only to him, not to the sides of evil or good which are classified by their values. Like the value of the good is usually accepting of the weak and minorities - well Kylo helps Rey and he doesn't kill his underlings. Evil is usually entitled, and Kylo is also that with becoming the Supreme Leader. 
The funny thing it feels like until the 2/3 part of the movie everyone was about the individuality, also Rey, Finn, Poe, but in the end, the three of them just becomes this group of a shared virtue. The FO is in their place of being the evil ones. But Kylo still stays individual by looking crushed in front of Rey. 

The one thing the good guys teach us is that people on the other team aren’t like us. In fact, they’re so bad, and the stakes are so high, that we have to forgive every transgression by our own team in order to win.

So to buy the story we have to demonize the other side in order to forgive the good side. But I find it really hard to demonize Kylo, so forgiving the "good group" also falls flat.


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Re: Kylo vs Hux as Leaders/The First Order thread

Post by Kylo Rey on Thu 25 Jan 2018, 4:38 pm

The Rian comments don't really bother me as JJ is coming back and like has been said many times, Kylo is essentially his baby. He (and Kasdan) have a great affinity for the Solo men. Just like Luke was Rian's favourite from the OT3 (which still didn't prevent him from tearing down the legendary Luke Skywalker image btw), Han is JJ's. That would naturally engender an investment in writing his son. And that Kasdan was involved in writing Rey and Kylo's dynamic is pretty significant too, as we only found that out recently. He helped craft his father's iconic love story in the OT and is now involved in writing the son's. And I mean didn't Rian go on record in one of his many pre-TLJ interviews and named Kylo his favourite from the new characters? It's obvious to see from the film anyway imo. Thank god Trevorrow is gone. Imagine if he was still doing IX. Yikes.
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Re: Kylo vs Hux as Leaders/The First Order thread

Post by rawpowah on Thu 25 Jan 2018, 5:46 pm

Kasdan isn't writing IX though. If I'm not mistaken, it's Chris Terrio who is writing it with JJ and we don't know how much input he has or what preferences.
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Re: Kylo vs Hux as Leaders/The First Order thread

Post by Saracene on Thu 25 Jan 2018, 6:05 pm

@rawpowah wrote:Kasdan isn't writing IX though. If I'm not mistaken, it's Chris Terrio who is writing it with JJ and we don't know how much input he has or what preferences.
@rawpowah

I think any writer would naturally gravitate to Kylo to be honest, because he's an utter gift of a character with the most inherent draaamaaah.

Don't want to sound harsh, but IMO if Kylo's ultimate story is about growing up, it can't be all about "poor Ben who got traumatised forever because of his family's bad choices". He can't be treated like some helpless victim - he needs to move on beyond his family grudge and take responsibility for his own poor choices. Otherwise he'll never reach functioning adulthood.
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Re: Kylo vs Hux as Leaders/The First Order thread

Post by snufkin on Thu 25 Jan 2018, 6:14 pm

JJ<3s Kylo and he <3s Rey, plus we know Kasdan is somewhere in the background. So I don't think it'll be as well written a screenplay b/c Carrie Fisher's not around to edit it, but I'm pretty amused as the continual chorus of "JJ will fix it!" Like these people could save themselves the stress and jump to the inevitable next stage of grief in yelling that "We should've known that was going to happen because of what JJ did to Khan!"
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Re: Kylo vs Hux as Leaders/The First Order thread

Post by californiagirl on Thu 25 Jan 2018, 6:41 pm

I know many people don't like Rose's line about saving what you love, not destroying what you hate, especially in context. However, it was so in your face, like Yoda's message about failure, that I think it might actually come back and put to better effect in Episode 9. I put this here because the Resistance could defend and rebuild itself, rather than immediately focusing on destroying the FO even if it kills them all (the point of Poe's arc). The FO is clearly painted as a very eeeevil entity, and will surely be defeated by the end of the trilogy. However, I am wondering if the more interesting take here would be to have a situation in which you either have a FO civil war as some have suggested, whether by stormtrooper rebellion, Kylo taking it down from within, etc., or perhaps, a situation in which Hux's hubris/blind rage/incompetence dooms them all. I have this weirdly certain feeling that it would be more satisfying for Hux to be responsible for his and the First Order's demise than to have a "good" character make him go boom. Which goes back to the concept that destroying everything is not the only way to solve problems. Someone needs to end the near 70-year cycle of violence and give a more positive message than "let's make the bad guys explode and the world will be fine again" (re:the Poe arc and Rose quote).
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Re: Kylo vs Hux as Leaders/The First Order thread

Post by FrolickingFizzgig on Thu 25 Jan 2018, 7:00 pm

Luke did what he had to do, IMO. I feel for Kylo at the end. Dude's my favourite character in SW by a huge margin and if he doesn't get a satisfying end after all this I'm going to punch a metaphorical wall, but he's a mess. Luke had to attract his attention otherwise he would have destroyed everything. He trolled Kylo hard/served Kylo his lunch, sure. To pass on what he learned.

Ultimately you have to remember that Rian's a confessed redemption stan who is really sympathetic toward Kylo. He has said multiple times that he sees no reason to get behind the mask (i.e. his whole movie) if the end-goal here is just to kill him. You have to see TLJ through that lens or it makes no sense.
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Re: Kylo vs Hux as Leaders/The First Order thread

Post by Kylo Men on Thu 25 Jan 2018, 8:01 pm

Rian's Kylo isn't as funny. Isn't as light. Isn't as unpredictable.

I wouldn't say he ruined the character. He just was more interested in dark and conflicted and not wilda$$ and sweet.

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Re: Kylo vs Hux as Leaders/The First Order thread

Post by nickandnora on Thu 25 Jan 2018, 9:34 pm

The funny thing it feels like until the 2/3 part of the movie everyone was about the individuality, also Rey, Finn, Poe, but in the end, the three of them just becomes this group of a shared virtue.
Again, just personal opinion, but I really feel that the place to address the individuality of each of the three characters you mentioned (possibly in conflict with each other) is the final film. The last act of this movie wasn't the place. Yes, they *could* have tipped their hand to it a bit more, but I think the seeds are already there. They were really only back in each other's company for a total of five minutes, hardly long enough for the ramifications of their individual experiences to buck up against each other.

I think I'm just in strong disagreement about the future lack of conflict thing. There *will* be conflict among the key main players of the Resistance. The very basics of writing tells me this. They've listed the ingredients, they've written the recipe, and they're *just* in the process of throwing everything in the bowl. They'll stir and bake Episode IX, I'm sure of it (wow, I really ran with that cooking metaphor... Laughing) I think it's wrong to expect the Resistance to devolve into a complete gong show of in-fighting that ultimately leaves the galaxy without a lifeline, nor do I think it's going to be as straightforward as: "It turns out they were the bad guys all along!!1!" But conflict? Yeah, there will be that for sure. In spades.

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Re: Kylo vs Hux as Leaders/The First Order thread

Post by Night Huntress on Fri 26 Jan 2018, 1:21 am

@Saracene wrote:
@rawpowah wrote:Kasdan isn't writing IX though. If I'm not mistaken, it's Chris Terrio who is writing it with JJ and we don't know how much input he has or what preferences.
@rawpowah

I think any writer would naturally gravitate to Kylo to be honest, because he's an utter gift of a character with the most inherent draaamaaah.

Don't want to sound harsh, but IMO if Kylo's ultimate story is about growing up, it can't be all about "poor Ben who got traumatised forever because of his family's bad choices". He can't be treated like some helpless victim - he needs to move on beyond his family grudge and take responsibility for his own poor choices. Otherwise he'll never reach functioning adulthood.
@Saracene

yes, exactly EXACTLY! Thumbs up

being a victim explains some of his actions/bad choices... but it's time for him to overcome his hurt and self-pity/self-hatered. Being a victim shouldn't be a excuse for every horrible decision he makes.
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Re: Kylo vs Hux as Leaders/The First Order thread

Post by SoloSideCousin on Fri 26 Jan 2018, 8:03 pm

@ZioRen wrote:
@CienaRee wrote:
@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@ISeeAnIsland wrote:
@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@nickandnora wrote:
I actually like Poe's arc in TLJ, but now that he's apparently grown into a good responsible leader and Finn has become a good Rebel Scum, and Rose is a good earnest Resistance girl, it's hard to see what growth or drama is left to do.
I don't know, Poe misquoting Holdo at the end there when he was having his big revelation (the spark that will "burn the First Order" versus "restore the Republic" contrasted with Rose's "not killing what we hate, but saving what we love") was pretty damn subversive and sneaky and basically tells me everything I need to know about how the conflict *within* the Resistance is going to play out next film. Whether Poe actually continues to learn in the next film as a result of whatever conflict ensues, or is taken down because of it remains to be seen, but I think there's a lot of potential there.
@nickandnora

I am holding onto that bit for dear life as a sign that the Kumbaya MF is a subversion, because if not Rian effed up mightily and completely negated all the awesome reality and groundbreaking nature of the first 2/3 of the movie. And even worse, he genuinely thinks we should sympathize with no remorse Poe and those Kumbaya idiots on the Falcon. But worst of all, it says that making the long-term abused kid, whose uncle came this close to killing the only whipping boy and the only one to face consequences to be right and good, when it is not at all.
@SoloSideCousin

I don't know that we'll get an outright subversion of Kumbaya MF, but I don't think there's any evidence whatsoever that Poe will react in a positive/constructive way to finding out about the Force Bond between Rey and Ben...especially if that bond is still active (and why wouldn't it be?) and word spreads that Kylo is now Supreme Leader. Poe is either going to be p***** and won't trust Rey, he'll want to exploit that bond (and I think him wanting to exploit the bond is going to be more likely). I can't see Rey going for that...she's not going to want to be used as a tool against Kylo/Ben.

I mean if there's any sort of a significant time jump, JJ could just push everything that happened in the throne room under the rug for IX, but there's a lot more dramatic potential in Poe, et al, finding out about what happened in the Throne Room and Rey's role in it. Being Rey, I suspect that she'll keep quiet about it at first, but if word gets out that the FO think that Rey was the one who killed Snoke, of course, the Resistance will have questions about that.
@ISeeAnIsland

I could definitely see something like that happening, but I am really start to question Rian's perception of who you should sympathize with, as I think I just read someone this morning that Rian wanted Luke to "hand Kylo his lunch" in some recent podcast. If that's how Rian looked at that scene ... Well, (1) the dude didn't hit that mark with me and is probably even more of a Luke Stan than we thought and a lot more of a traditionalist than we thought, and (2) here's hoping JJ gets it better!
@SoloSideCousin

Yeah,nothing against Rian personally but I get the impression that while he does seem to love Kylo he's a major Luke stan while in JJ's case it's obvious that Kylo's his baby and he loves the Solo man more than Luke,not saying he hates him or anything but that's how I'm reading his comments.
I'm sorry but I find it very troubling that Kylo who's an abused victim is being painted as someone who got his ''lunch served''by the uncle who tried to murder him,it's like saying that he deserves what he's getting and he's the one at fault when he was prayed by Snoke since he was a baby and used by Luke for his might Skywalker blood.Yes,Luke was regretful and he admitted to having failed Ben but that doesn't negate the fact that Ben will probably be traumatized by that for the rest of his life.
I just hate it when writers write these metaphors for serious issues like abuse in RL then sweep it under the rug/don't take responsibility for having written it that way.I don't want to think that applies to Rian because he's super nice guy and most of TLJ was written in a very complex way but yeah not a fan of those comments at all. You can still root for Luke becoming a hero again without implying that it's right for Kylo to be punished for the lasting trauma he has and for feeling his family let him down.
In retrospect seeing how Luke and Ben's confrontation played out makes Han's death even more heartbreaking because while Han wasn't the best father he could have been to Ben and did give up on him for a while at the end he sacrificed his life in order to bring his son back and died loving him without any judgment(seriously Han's final thoughts in TFA junior novelization aways break my heart because he does realize how much he failed his son and was hoping he would forgive him some day).
@CienaRee

I was sort of vaguing on this in another thread but agreed with nearly all of these points. I think out of anything, Luke comparing himself to Han in the "If you strike me down in anger, I'll always be with you, just like your father" line rubs me strongest the wrong way. Like dude, how is what happened to Han in any way comparable to you? I'm sure Kylo takes lots of comfort in his would-be murderer (in his sleep, before he'd done anything, and it doesn't matter from Kylo's end that Luke wasn't going to actually do it even if he knew that) promising that he'll stay with him and "see him around". I still feel like Rian created a very disturbing background for Kylo and then proceeded to act like it wasn't really a big deal in that final confrontation scene, where Luke is supposed to be the big western-style hero.

Luke has a place in teaching Kylo the lesson of failure possibly more than anyone, but in absolutely no way does he have any right to "serve Kylo his lunch" after what went down back then.
@ZioRen

Yeah, I have aggravated by this "handing his lunch to him" sith since it came out. And frankly, IMO, Rian sent the wrong person out there. The fact that Luke of all people should be the one to give Kylo his lunch when Luke bears *tremendous* responsibility over how absolutely f***ed up and out-of-control his nephew is.

People keep saying that Ben needs to pull it together so he can be an adult. Pray tell where he has actually learned or acquired those skills, or who can he learn them from in the future? Kylo is not some drug-addicted kid who was basically given a decent upbringing who just needs tough love. This is insane trauma and long-term victimization and abandonment. People say he needs to ask for help. I'm sorry but this guy is so damaged that wouldn't know what asking for help would be. It's not like Luke or the FO EAP program ever sent him pamphlets about the 12 steps.

I mean look at the history. Ben was handed over by his parents to Luke. So they didn't break their neck to teach him anything did they? Luke would so it, right?

However, Luke wasn't taking in Ben because he was so loving and because he was excited about making him a man. Luke was excited about cultivating his powers. He was into using him as a tool. He also did a pisspoor job of protecting his nephew from outside influences. And lo and behold, when he feels the darkness in his nephew, a kid he is raising, his *first freaking thought* was to kill him. It doesn't matter that he didn't go through with it. It matters that Luke's mind went there *first*.

Somehow, Luke wanted to save the thoroughly terrible Vader the second he found out he was his father, but the boy in his care? The first thought is that he needs to die. This shows that Ben was more tool/vessel than nephew/son. Hence Luke wasn't teaching Ben anything remotely helpful in terms of coping skills or how to become a man. Because you know what? Luke ain't the best example of a man either. Look how stupidly he handled the Ben incident.

So unsurprisingly, Ben would have deteriorated terribly as a result of the Luke betrayal, so once he gets to Snoke he is just a mushy mess. And of course Snoke, heavily coded has a child predator, has absolutely no interest in Ben learning coping skills or becoming an independent man at all. And then Ben spends several years in that immaturity-enhancing/devolution/cult-like environment for a few years.

Well then people will say he got his chance with Han. And I say what chance was that exactly? Han didn't grow up until he walked out on that catwalk. Han acted like an immature dude Ben's whole life. Why should a long-term Snoke mindf***ing victim suddenly have some trust in Han? That kid didn't know sith. Han was real at that moment, but he was also a "Johnny come lately" and didn't seem to bothered about his kid for years.

Then Rey says she will help him when she doesn't even know what she is doing, and that ends with her tricking for the lightsaber and him being under Hux's gun.

It's all nice to say that Ben needs to grow up, but would anybody be saying that to somebody with a similar history in real life? Would Luke, his traumatizer and the nightmare who terrified him into running to a cult leader, said leader screwing him up even more, really be the designated person to give him that humiliating kick up the a**? I don't think so. For Luke to play that role in Ben's healing is disgusting. It's like having the dad who abandoned you on the side of the road yelling at you in a school assembly and telling you to get your a** in gear, while the whole school applauds for your deadbeat dad.

But then the question is, well who else could have done it?

Well @"Irina Dr France" answered that question beautifully. His mother could have done it.

Imagine how absolutely powerful it would have been had Leia walked out there alone. Ben couldn't kill her before. He couldn't kill her now. In fact, he may have been thrilled she was alive.

And the scene would have been beautifully quiet, like Sally Field holding up the "union" sign in Norma Rae. It would have been a replay of him meeting his father and an example of how he had changed and how much he regretted killing his father. His could have tried to shoot them and it might have ended with him in no man's land, or a cliffhanger or who lived or died, but it would have been incredible and psychologically powerful.

But no ... Luke had to horn in there. Why? Because no matter what effed up sith Luke did, he was going to go out like a boss. Full stop. F*** Leia, f*** psychological realism, f*** Ben's abuse history. No, the guy who put Ben on the road to hell gets to f*** him over one last time.

This was fanservice and Luke stanning pure and simple, and it was a major mistake. But God forbid Luke being screwed up stretch over to another movie. God forbid Leia actually be the big strong one in the Skywalker family. God forbid Leia kick Luke up the a** for what he did. No instead we have Luke being the big wise advisor to Leia about how not to give up her son.

Rian talks a good game about women, but notice how Leia's and Holdo's inherent power gets undermined by Poe for both, and by Luke for Leia.


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Re: Kylo vs Hux as Leaders/The First Order thread

Post by Irina de France on Fri 26 Jan 2018, 8:47 pm

@SoloSideCousin I don't agree with everything you saod, but... I agree with you about Luke and Poe. :/
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Re: Kylo vs Hux as Leaders/The First Order thread

Post by californiagirl on Fri 26 Jan 2018, 9:10 pm

@SoloSideCousin I get that it may have been Luke stanning on fanboy Rian's part, but this was the last shot for Luke to complete his arc, as we likely will not see more of him aside from a few posthumous Force ghost cameos. I like the idea of offing a member of the OT3 in each movie. It sounds like the IX was meant to be Leia's movie, as TLJ was Luke's and TFA was Han's. Otherwise the legacy characters would overwhelm what is supposed to be the new generation's trilogy. The whole ST appears to be about letting go of the past, so Luke inevitably had to make a big grand sacrifice to go out on in VIII, for fear of taking over an entire second movie trilogy when it isn't really about him anymore, even if it doesn't absolve him of his mistakes.
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Re: Kylo vs Hux as Leaders/The First Order thread

Post by 12 Parsnips on Sat 27 Jan 2018, 6:10 am

The Crait scene with Luke is meant to accomplish a number of things, I think, in layers. First, there’s the obvious ploy to stall the FO until the Resistance survivors can escape. Then there’s the part where the audience gets to vent their nasty feelings on Ben with Luke’s smart@ssness, the same way Ben is venting his nasty feelings on Luke. There’s the part where Ben has a catharsis in the process and comes to the end of himself and realizes what he’s lost through his actions by the end. And in the middle of all this there’s a shift, once the Resistance is actually escaping, in the way Luke is talking to Ben. He says he’s sorry and he failed him. The tears in his eyes are not simply for himself and his hope for the next Jedi, Rey, but for Ben. In my opinion, even the words (“The rebellion is reborn today. The war is just beginning. And I will not be the last Jedi”) themselves are focused on Ben, the boy he loves, since I think Luke has been given, along with the twin sunsets later, a Force “beautific vision” of sorts about Ben’s future.

Amidst all this is the metaphor of Crait as Ben. (In TFA we had the metaphor of SKB as a natural thing weaponized, like Ben, which eventually turns into a glorious son/sun.) Here the bleeding wounds of the red surface of Crait are all too obviously pointing to Ben’s tortured soul, which was covered over in such a thin skin of salt. As the battle ends, snow begins to fall and cover the landscape which was so hideously damaged, changing and “healing” the wounds. (See the Slashfilm podcast at about the 1 hour, 29 minute mark where RJ says, “As Luke comes out and is…coming back into the legend he that needs to be and kind of healing the world, the salt-snow falls and turns everything back into its pristine state.”) So we are meant to believe that Luke is doing some kind of galactic reverse-Fisher King thing for Crait/Ben as he encounters Ben.

The problem though, I think, is that the tonal shift from Luke goading his nephew to Luke the nephew’s healer doesn’t work. It took me literally five viewings to see this intended shift because I was so angry at Luke for treating his nephew whom he set on this path and who had a predator eating at his soul this way that I simply could not get past it.

I know in my head that Luke is intending good by the end. But it is very hard to recognize, and especially to believe. Maybe what’s in my head and in my heart will meet up eventually, but they still aren’t there yet.

I think and hope that when Ben is redeemed in IX, we will be able to go back and revisit this scene in TLJ, and maybe then we will see Luke’s heart and vision for Ben more clearly (since the vision will--I hope--have been fulfilled), and be able to see past all that makes the shift difficult now.
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Re: Kylo vs Hux as Leaders/The First Order thread

Post by SkyStar on Sat 27 Jan 2018, 7:18 am

Kylo's wounds never really healed properly, they are like that wound you have and you just keep peeling it all the time and it never heals because you don't let it. And then Luke poured some salt onto them and they probably hurt like hell.
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Re: Kylo vs Hux as Leaders/The First Order thread

Post by ISeeAnIsland on Sat 27 Jan 2018, 11:08 am

@12 Parsnips wrote:The Crait scene with Luke is meant to accomplish a number of things, I think, in layers. First, there’s the obvious ploy to stall the FO until the Resistance survivors can escape. Then there’s the part where the audience gets to vent their nasty feelings on Ben with Luke’s smart@ssness, the same way Ben is venting his nasty feelings on Luke. There’s the part where Ben has a catharsis in the process and comes to the end of himself and realizes what he’s lost through his actions by the end. And in the middle of all this there’s a shift, once the Resistance is actually escaping, in the way Luke is talking to Ben. He says he’s sorry and he failed him. The tears in his eyes are not simply for himself and his hope for the next Jedi, Rey, but for Ben. In my opinion, even the words (“The rebellion is reborn today. The war is just beginning. And I will not be the last Jedi”) themselves are focused on Ben, the boy he loves, since I think Luke has been given, along with the twin sunsets later, a Force “beautific vision” of sorts about Ben’s future.

Amidst all this is the metaphor of Crait as Ben. (In TFA we had the metaphor of SKB as a natural thing weaponized, like Ben, which eventually turns into a glorious son/sun.) Here the bleeding wounds of the red surface of Crait are all too obviously pointing to Ben’s tortured soul, which was covered over in such a thin skin of salt. As the battle ends, snow begins to fall and cover the landscape which was so hideously damaged, changing and “healing” the wounds. (See the Slashfilm podcast at about the 1 hour, 29 minute mark where RJ says, “As Luke comes out and is…coming back into the legend he that needs to be and kind of healing the world, the salt-snow falls and turns everything back into its pristine state.”) So we are meant to believe that Luke is doing some kind of galactic reverse-Fisher King thing for Crait/Ben as he encounters Ben.

The problem though, I think, is that the tonal shift from Luke goading his nephew to Luke the nephew’s healer doesn’t work. It took me literally five viewings to see this intended shift because I was so angry at Luke for treating his nephew whom he set on this path and who had a predator eating at his soul this way that I simply could not get past it.

I know in my head that Luke is intending good by the end. But it is very hard to recognize, and especially to believe. Maybe what’s in my head and in my heart will meet up eventually, but they still aren’t there yet.

I think and hope that when Ben is redeemed in IX, we will be able to go back and revisit this scene in TLJ, and maybe then we will see Luke’s heart and vision for Ben more clearly (since the vision will--I hope--have been fulfilled), and be able to see past all that makes the shift difficult now.
@12 Parsnips

I'd like this post 100 times if I could--you really put into words how I feel about that ending. I know what Rian was trying to get across, and I know how I am supposed to feel, but my head and my emotions really disconnect here, especially knowing where Ben's psyche is at at this point.
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Re: Kylo vs Hux as Leaders/The First Order thread

Post by 12 Parsnips on Sat 27 Jan 2018, 11:51 am

@ISeeAnIsland wrote:
@12 Parsnips wrote:The Crait scene with Luke is meant to accomplish a number of things, I think, in layers. First, there’s the obvious ploy to stall the FO until the Resistance survivors can escape. Then there’s the part where the audience gets to vent their nasty feelings on Ben with Luke’s smart@ssness, the same way Ben is venting his nasty feelings on Luke. There’s the part where Ben has a catharsis in the process and comes to the end of himself and realizes what he’s lost through his actions by the end. And in the middle of all this there’s a shift, once the Resistance is actually escaping, in the way Luke is talking to Ben. He says he’s sorry and he failed him. The tears in his eyes are not simply for himself and his hope for the next Jedi, Rey, but for Ben. In my opinion, even the words (“The rebellion is reborn today. The war is just beginning. And I will not be the last Jedi”) themselves are focused on Ben, the boy he loves, since I think Luke has been given, along with the twin sunsets later, a Force “beautific vision” of sorts about Ben’s future.

Amidst all this is the metaphor of Crait as Ben. (In TFA we had the metaphor of SKB as a natural thing weaponized, like Ben, which eventually turns into a glorious son/sun.) Here the bleeding wounds of the red surface of Crait are all too obviously pointing to Ben’s tortured soul, which was covered over in such a thin skin of salt. As the battle ends, snow begins to fall and cover the landscape which was so hideously damaged, changing and “healing” the wounds. (See the Slashfilm podcast at about the 1 hour, 29 minute mark where RJ says, “As Luke comes out and is…coming back into the legend he that needs to be and kind of healing the world, the salt-snow falls and turns everything back into its pristine state.”) So we are meant to believe that Luke is doing some kind of galactic reverse-Fisher King thing for Crait/Ben as he encounters Ben.

The problem though, I think, is that the tonal shift from Luke goading his nephew to Luke the nephew’s healer doesn’t work. It took me literally five viewings to see this intended shift because I was so angry at Luke for treating his nephew whom he set on this path and who had a predator eating at his soul this way that I simply could not get past it.

I know in my head that Luke is intending good by the end. But it is very hard to recognize, and especially to believe. Maybe what’s in my head and in my heart will meet up eventually, but they still aren’t there yet.

I think and hope that when Ben is redeemed in IX, we will be able to go back and revisit this scene in TLJ, and maybe then we will see Luke’s heart and vision for Ben more clearly (since the vision will--I hope--have been fulfilled), and be able to see past all that makes the shift difficult now.
@12 Parsnips

I'd like this post 100 times if I could--you really put into words how I feel about that ending.  I know what Rian was trying to get across, and I know how I am supposed to feel, but my head and my emotions really disconnect here, especially knowing where Ben's psyche is at at this point.
@ISeeAnIsland

Thank you! Smile I actually feel a similar disconnect with Resistance Rey at the end too. In my head I know that RJ has to come up with kind of a cheerfulish ending, and that Rey's default defense mechanism is optimistic denial (just as Ben's is almost mindless rage). I see the glimpse of sadness as Rey sits alone with her broken heartlightsaber on the Falcon. But it's the tonal shift from teary "don't do this, Ben" to "Woo, I like shooting stuff!" that my heart won't cozy up to.
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Re: Kylo vs Hux as Leaders/The First Order thread

Post by SoloSideCousin on Sat 27 Jan 2018, 12:24 pm

@12 Parsnips wrote:The Crait scene with Luke is meant to accomplish a number of things, I think, in layers. First, there’s the obvious ploy to stall the FO until the Resistance survivors can escape. Then there’s the part where the audience gets to vent their nasty feelings on Ben with Luke’s smart@ssness, the same way Ben is venting his nasty feelings on Luke. There’s the part where Ben has a catharsis in the process and comes to the end of himself and realizes what he’s lost through his actions by the end. And in the middle of all this there’s a shift, once the Resistance is actually escaping, in the way Luke is talking to Ben. He says he’s sorry and he failed him. The tears in his eyes are not simply for himself and his hope for the next Jedi, Rey, but for Ben. In my opinion, even the words (“The rebellion is reborn today. The war is just beginning. And I will not be the last Jedi”) themselves are focused on Ben, the boy he loves, since I think Luke has been given, along with the twin sunsets later, a Force “beautific vision” of sorts about Ben’s future.

Amidst all this is the metaphor of Crait as Ben. (In TFA we had the metaphor of SKB as a natural thing weaponized, like Ben, which eventually turns into a glorious son/sun.) Here the bleeding wounds of the red surface of Crait are all too obviously pointing to Ben’s tortured soul, which was covered over in such a thin skin of salt. As the battle ends, snow begins to fall and cover the landscape which was so hideously damaged, changing and “healing” the wounds. (See the Slashfilm podcast at about the 1 hour, 29 minute mark where RJ says, “As Luke comes out and is…coming back into the legend he that needs to be and kind of healing the world, the salt-snow falls and turns everything back into its pristine state.”) So we are meant to believe that Luke is doing some kind of galactic reverse-Fisher King thing for Crait/Ben as he encounters Ben.

The problem though, I think, is that the tonal shift from Luke goading his nephew to Luke the nephew’s healer doesn’t work. It took me literally five viewings to see this intended shift because I was so angry at Luke for treating his nephew whom he set on this path and who had a predator eating at his soul this way that I simply could not get past it.

I know in my head that Luke is intending good by the end. But it is very hard to recognize, and especially to believe. Maybe what’s in my head and in my heart will meet up eventually, but they still aren’t there yet.

I think and hope that when Ben is redeemed in IX, we will be able to go back and revisit this scene in TLJ, and maybe then we will see Luke’s heart and vision for Ben more clearly (since the vision will--I hope--have been fulfilled), and be able to see past all that makes the shift difficult now.
@12 Parsnips

Thank you for this post.  I have been so aggravated since Rian said "hand him his lunch" that I didn't even want to listen to that whole podcast. But what you say makes a lot of sense. Stylistically it works beautifully and I also can see the need for the "he killed Han" segment to need that smackdown.  And I like the part about the salt becoming pristine. There is definitely an almost Biblical kind of purification happening here, which though painful beyond belief, will help save Ben.

But you have pinpointed where the moment fails.  The tonal shift from goading to healing *is* poorly done, and that is a huge failing in the scene, because Luke basically still largely comes across as a smarta** to the very end.  As a result, even the "healing" parts come across, even as Luke has tears in his eyes, as scolding and mocking, which makes the whole "healing/tender/apology" part come across as insincere and just as a lesser or gentler version of "jerking around". And that is just galling beyond belief considering Luke's share of the responsibility of the absolute wrecked mess that Ben is.

I had actually forced myself mentally to believe that Luke was actually trying to help Ben because Mark does have tears in his eyes, etc. However, then I heard the "hand him his lunch" bit, and I was like, "FFS, Rian, is that what you really wanted to get across?" It sounded so vengeful and fanboyish "Let's have Luke kick Kylo's a**", that along with that Kumbaya MF ending, I really started to question Rian's judgment and to a certain extent I still do. But now I can narrow my annoyance to the poor execution of that shift.

In many ways Rian is a superior director in terms of symbolism and layering and depth to JJ, but I actually think  in many ways that JJ "gets people" much better than Rian does. The emotional execution of the catwalk scene with Han and Ben was so superbly done. I think that JJ would have handled this Ben and Luke scene so much better acting-wise.
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Re: Kylo vs Hux as Leaders/The First Order thread

Post by ZioRen on Sat 27 Jan 2018, 12:53 pm

@ISeeAnIsland wrote:
@12 Parsnips wrote:The Crait scene with Luke is meant to accomplish a number of things, I think, in layers. First, there’s the obvious ploy to stall the FO until the Resistance survivors can escape. Then there’s the part where the audience gets to vent their nasty feelings on Ben with Luke’s smart@ssness, the same way Ben is venting his nasty feelings on Luke. There’s the part where Ben has a catharsis in the process and comes to the end of himself and realizes what he’s lost through his actions by the end. And in the middle of all this there’s a shift, once the Resistance is actually escaping, in the way Luke is talking to Ben. He says he’s sorry and he failed him. The tears in his eyes are not simply for himself and his hope for the next Jedi, Rey, but for Ben. In my opinion, even the words (“The rebellion is reborn today. The war is just beginning. And I will not be the last Jedi”) themselves are focused on Ben, the boy he loves, since I think Luke has been given, along with the twin sunsets later, a Force “beautific vision” of sorts about Ben’s future.

Amidst all this is the metaphor of Crait as Ben. (In TFA we had the metaphor of SKB as a natural thing weaponized, like Ben, which eventually turns into a glorious son/sun.) Here the bleeding wounds of the red surface of Crait are all too obviously pointing to Ben’s tortured soul, which was covered over in such a thin skin of salt. As the battle ends, snow begins to fall and cover the landscape which was so hideously damaged, changing and “healing” the wounds. (See the Slashfilm podcast at about the 1 hour, 29 minute mark where RJ says, “As Luke comes out and is…coming back into the legend he that needs to be and kind of healing the world, the salt-snow falls and turns everything back into its pristine state.”) So we are meant to believe that Luke is doing some kind of galactic reverse-Fisher King thing for Crait/Ben as he encounters Ben.

The problem though, I think, is that the tonal shift from Luke goading his nephew to Luke the nephew’s healer doesn’t work. It took me literally five viewings to see this intended shift because I was so angry at Luke for treating his nephew whom he set on this path and who had a predator eating at his soul this way that I simply could not get past it.

I know in my head that Luke is intending good by the end. But it is very hard to recognize, and especially to believe. Maybe what’s in my head and in my heart will meet up eventually, but they still aren’t there yet.

I think and hope that when Ben is redeemed in IX, we will be able to go back and revisit this scene in TLJ, and maybe then we will see Luke’s heart and vision for Ben more clearly (since the vision will--I hope--have been fulfilled), and be able to see past all that makes the shift difficult now.
@12 Parsnips

I'd like this post 100 times if I could--you really put into words how I feel about that ending.  I know what Rian was trying to get across, and I know how I am supposed to feel, but my head and my emotions really disconnect here, especially knowing where Ben's psyche is at at this point.
@ISeeAnIsland

This is all I was trying to say with my arguments too. I get what Rian was going for, I promise I do, but the execution just failed for me. The triumphant "eat your lunch, kid", western hero vibe was just all wrong knowing the history between Ben and Luke and how Kylo felt at that moment. I get why that attitude served a purpose at the start of the scene, but there wasn't enough of a proper tonal shift toward the end of their confrontation. I disagree on catharsis, though, because I don't see how Kylo could get anything at all cathartic out of the man he is terrified of and who he thinks tried to murder him showing up and making himself literally untouchable.

There is a middle ground in tone between what happened and "well, Luke can't just fall on his knees and beg for forgiveness because it wouldn't work!" All it did was make me dislike Luke and think he had no right to be telling Kylo he'll be with him "like his father" or think that "see you around, kid" would come out as anything but threatening to Kylo at that point. Of all the people with a right to humiliate Kylo and have me support it and cheer, Luke is just about the least of them and it was Rian himself who did that, which makes the disconnect more jarring. It's not like this is some emotional thread from TFA that Rian put his own spin on, it was an emotional thread that he created himself.

It felt like trying to give Luke a triumphant, bad*** last moment as much as possible without having him actually fight even if it had an emotional disconnect with the feelings built in Kylo toward Luke. The way Rian describes it in the aftermath with "handing him his lunch" makes me feel the same as well. And considering the backstory Rian gave them, it all just feels amazingly disingenuous. I don't think I'll ever like that scene and how it was tonally handled. If I was supposed to get warmth in Luke's feelings toward Kylo, well, I didn't get it even at the end even if I logically know it's there.
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Re: Kylo vs Hux as Leaders/The First Order thread

Post by 12 Parsnips on Sat 27 Jan 2018, 1:09 pm

@SoloSideCousin wrote:@12 Parsnips

Thank you for this post.  I have been so aggravated since Rian said "hand him his lunch" that I didn't even want to listen to that whole podcast. But what you say makes a lot of sense. Stylistically it works beautifully and I also can see the need for the "he killed Han" segment to need that smackdown.  And I like the part about the salt becoming pristine. There is definitely an almost Biblical kind of purification happening here, which though painful beyond belief, will help save Ben.

But you have pinpointed where the moment fails.  The tonal shift from goading to healing *is* poorly done, and that is a huge failing in the scene, because Luke basically still largely comes across as a smarta** to the very end.  As a result, even the "healing" parts come across, even as Luke has tears in his eyes, as scolding and mocking, which makes the whole "healing/tender/apology" part come across as insincere and just as a lesser or gentler version of "jerking around". And that is just galling beyond belief considering Luke's share of the responsibility of the absolute wrecked mess that Ben is.

I had actually forced myself mentally to believe that Luke was actually trying to help Ben because Mark does have tears in his eyes, etc. However, then I heard the "hand him his lunch" bit, and I was like, "FFS, Rian, is that what you really wanted to get across?" It sounded so vengeful and fanboyish "Let's have Luke kick Kylo's a**", that along with that Kumbaya MF ending, I really started to question Rian's judgment and to a certain extent I still do. But now I can narrow my annoyance to the poor execution of that shift.

In many ways Rian is a superior director in terms of symbolism and layering and depth to JJ, but I actually think  in many ways that JJ "gets people" much better than Rian does. The emotional execution of the catwalk scene with Han and Ben was so superbly done. I think that JJ would have handled this Ben and Luke scene so much better acting-wise.
@SoloSideCousin
You're welcome.   Smile They seem to be juggling trying to telegraph forgiveness/healing/redemption/tough love or something of that ilk with Luke, while at the same time trying to make us believe things look black for Ben, while at the same time trying to tell us Rey is fine there with her friends, thanks, nothing to see here, while at the same time trying to tell us Rey is more alone than ever. And with all those parts in motion, stuff is getting dropped on the emotional level, unfortunately.

I don't want to come off as down on the movie--I reeeeeeeally like it on the whole. It's this Crait part I struggle with, but with the hope that once we have a complete picture after IX this all will fall more into place with the overall tone of the trilogy. (And it won't hurt so much in hindsight!)
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