Kylo vs Hux as Leaders/The First Order thread

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Re: Kylo vs Hux as Leaders/The First Order thread

Post by Teo oswald on Sat 27 Jan 2018, 1:45 pm

Rian in this film showed to the public, to us the true human feelings, the imperfect human being. He showed us that not only in the first order
there is chaos but also in the Resistance. The Resistance is imperfect as a human being. Smile
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Re: Kylo vs Hux as Leaders/The First Order thread

Post by DeeBee on Sat 27 Jan 2018, 8:53 pm

Ah! I see this thread has been updated from a Kylo vs Hux as Leaders thread - to now include the first order in general. Awesome. We need a thread for first order discussion - thanks Mods.

Just so I can find it in a year's time.. lol.. here is a thread where the ideology of the first order was discussed if anyone is interested..
http://reylo.skyforum.net/t742-tlj-ideology-discussion
I found this discussion really helpful in trying to get a clearer picture of just what the FO is and stands for.

While I think it was a little obscured at the end of TLJ- I think we are supposed to view the FO as an extremely evil organisation...
[while the resistance and the FO both buy their ships from the same people and feed the war machine: they are in no way equivalent in their faults IMHO].

I've been thinking about Kylo/Ben and how he views his leadership...

I've seen suggested the idea that Kylo/Ben never wanted to become Supreme Leader - and that it was, in a sense, foisted on him by the necessity of removing Snoke, and saving Rey. What do you think?

TLJ visual dictionary states: "Now the First Order campaign to retake the galaxy is truly underway, Kylo plots his future through uncertain times. With ambition fuelled by the dark side, Kylo prioritises his own survival and ultimate ascension." (pg. 28)

I think his being aligned with the dark side plays a role in his wanting to be Supreme leader.
And, his balance of dark and light is going to impact what kind of Leader he could be moving forward..

For me the impact on Kylo of the whole experience of the final confrontation with Luke and the turning down of the offer from Rey is yet to be revealed..
However - the final shot of Kylo has him:  kneeling, head bowed, shoulders slumped, all his anger and rage gone, and bathed in light shining down on him.
This suggests that he is shifting from fully dark and more toward the light at the end of TLJ - IMHO.
If this is the case, it could influence how we will see him trying to lead at the start of IX.

Up till now we've seen Kylo/Ben drawing his power from the dark side. [but conflicted]
The dark side emotions clouding his tactical reasoning.. Snoke kept Kylo/Ben in a state of emotional turmoil - by continually opening Kylo/Ben's emotional wounds and preventing him from healing them.  (TLJ visual dictionary, pg 28 & 29)
With Snoke out of the picture, the healing can begin.
If Kylo/Ben starts to shift back more toward the light at the start of IX - this means he will be leading smarter. He likely won't continue to lead as he did in Crait.

I think at this point, it's a bit tricky to fully understand what are Kylo/Ben's goals for the galaxy, if he is leading smarter - what will he actually be working toward? When he's not clouded by his emotions - what does he actually want? - What do you all think?

What does Kylo/Ben actually want? Maybe part of this answer is found in the one thing I think which Kylo/Ben values and remains constant in TFA and TLJ - Kylo/Ben's view of the force as an entity, and his relationship with it.
I think we see moments of wonder and awe from Kylo/Ben at the working of the force. And understandably, he sees his family lineage as closely tied to it.. it's at the heart of how he views himself..

In TLJ, he questioned (because of the force bond) just what did the force want from him?
I think he concludes the force wants him to rule with Rey by his side..
I think he thinks the force wanted him to be supreme leader. [whether I agree or not is another discussion]
He happily accepts this as his destiny- it's compatible with his dark side ambitions anyway, and he shows no desire to fight the will of the force, when this is it's will! Smile

So, unless Kylo/Ben sees things differently - at the start of IX he is going to embrace being Supreme Leader as the will of the force.
[And continue to work on getting Rey to join him]

Anyway, so all this is set up nicely as Hux and Kylo/Ben both believing it is their destiny to rule.. I love this set up Smile
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Re: Kylo vs Hux as Leaders/The First Order thread

Post by Night Huntress on Sun 28 Jan 2018, 1:52 am

@DeeBee wrote:

I've been thinking about Kylo/Ben and how he views his leadership...

I've seen suggested the idea that Kylo/Ben never wanted to become Supreme Leader - and that it was, in a sense, foisted on him by the necessity of removing Snoke, and saving Rey. What do you think?

Hm, I do think he had his own agenda from the beginning. He wasn't as devoted to Snoke and the FO as for example Vader was to the Emperor in my opinion.

He knew Snoke was using him and I don't think he wanted to be his apprentice and subordinate his whole life.

But I think killing Snoke in that moment was foisted by necessity - he may have attempted to kill him someday but not like that and not this early.

@DeeBee wrote:
I think at this point, it's a bit tricky to fully understand what are Kylo/Ben's goals for the galaxy, if he is leading smarter - what will he actually be working toward? When he's not clouded by his emotions - what does he actually want? - What do you all think?

What does Kylo/Ben actually want? Maybe part of this answer is found in the one thing I think which Kylo/Ben values and remains constant in TFA and TLJ - Kylo/Ben's view of the force as an entity, and his relationship with it.
I think we see moments of wonder and awe from Kylo/Ben at the working of the force. And understandably, he sees his family lineage as closely tied to it.. it's at the heart of how he views himself..

In TLJ, he questioned (because of the force bond) just what did the force want from him?
I think he concludes the force wants him to rule with Rey by his side..
I think he thinks the force wanted him to be supreme leader. [whether I agree or not is another discussion]
He happily accepts this as his destiny- it's compatible with his dark side ambitions anyway, and he shows no desire to fight the will of the force, when this is it's will! Smile

So, unless Kylo/Ben sees things differently - at the start of IX he is going to embrace being Supreme Leader as the will of the force.
[And continue to work on getting Rey to join him]

Anyway, so all this is set up nicely as Hux and Kylo/Ben both believing it is their destiny to rule.. I love this set up Smile
@DeeBee

My impression was Kylo/Ben didn't plan taking over in that moment- he didn't use Rey for that. You know like "Oh, she shipped herself to me- how convenient. Now I bring her to Snoke so we can kill him and rule together..." I don't know what he expected would happen once he brought her to Snoke- but his expression reveal he wasn't happy at all about the outcome. So he acted out of instinct - protecting Rey and also getting rid of his abuser...after they finished fighting the PG he saw the opportunity and took it.

Now what kind of Leader will he be?
That's a very difficult question since we didn't get much intel from the movies about his political or ethical motivations.
As a child he experienced the chaos of rebuilding the Republic- the constant arguments that never seemed to be solved...his mother always working on solutions butter never really getting anywhere. Kind of the same issues the Old Republic had. That's why I think he doesn't believe in democracy.
But he also grew up among people who witnessed the cruelty of the Empire under Palpatine.
I have the impression even if he did awful things he do have some kind of honor and he wants to make things better.
And being a force- elitist he do believes that's his destiny.

Hux on the other hand... well I don't think he cares much about other people. He is all about power and prestige.

Many believe he will be the smarter one- I don't think so. He likes to bark orders and appear to be important. I don't think he will outsmart Kylo in being more clever, BUT in contrast to Ben he has no scruple and that he can use to his advantage.
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Re: Kylo vs Hux as Leaders/The First Order thread

Post by EchoBase on Sun 28 Jan 2018, 5:35 am

Now this is interesting. Apparently Hux wanted to kill Kylo in TFA?

https://twitter.com/sleemo_/status/957571504660795394
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Re: Kylo vs Hux as Leaders/The First Order thread

Post by Night Huntress on Sun 28 Jan 2018, 5:56 am

@EchoBase wrote:Now this is interesting. Apparently Hux wanted to kill Kylo in TFA?

https://twitter.com/sleemo_/status/957571504660795394
@EchoBase

yeah, what a sneaky evil little weasel... now I enjoy the scenes where Kylo chocks and smacks him around even more. Twisted Evil

Is Kylo aware of this? I personally think he suspects or even knows from reading it in his mind? Confus
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Re: Kylo vs Hux as Leaders/The First Order thread

Post by Teo oswald on Sun 28 Jan 2018, 10:44 am

@DeeBee

as you said, Kylo / Ben did not want to become a supreme leader, the old creed of the Sith is dead. The student must kill the teacher. He wants to destroy what is old and create something new. In my opinion he is tired of this millennial war between the two factions, he has had a bad adolescence caused also from the war. What hurts us we want to make it disappear. But Kylo does not want to rule alone, he wants Rey as his equal. However, eliminating everything is a bad choice, as Padme said: the path of negotiation is an excellent compromise. now I do not remember who said maybe Rian, Kylo thinks everything he does is right, according to his point of view. Why did Rey not ally with him? because that way of thinking is wrong.

In the end we see him again troubled, sad because he did not get what he wanted. He is a supreme leader, the most powerful man, but without the thing he wants more ....
just like a king with a great kingdom, but without the queen what do you do with it?
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Re: Kylo vs Hux as Leaders/The First Order thread

Post by ISeeAnIsland on Sun 28 Jan 2018, 1:20 pm

@EchoBase wrote:Now this is interesting. Apparently Hux wanted to kill Kylo in TFA?

https://twitter.com/sleemo_/status/957571504660795394
@EchoBase

Interesting! I wonder if that scene was where they got the inspiration for Hux starting to pull his blaster on the unconscious Kylo in the throne room.
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Re: Kylo vs Hux as Leaders/The First Order thread

Post by SkyStar on Sun 28 Jan 2018, 1:27 pm

There were so many chances someone could have killed Kylo though - I guess force doesn't want it though because something always happens to interrupt it.
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Re: Kylo vs Hux as Leaders/The First Order thread

Post by nickandnora on Sun 28 Jan 2018, 1:43 pm

@EchoBase wrote:Now this is interesting. Apparently Hux wanted to kill Kylo in TFA?

https://twitter.com/sleemo_/status/957571504660795394
@EchoBase

*lets out delighted squeal*

To me, this signifies something that I've mentioned before, that as far back as TFA they were looking to position Hux as the main "bad guy" in IX, and the means by which he does this is overthrowing/trapping Kylo Ren. Well this deleted scene definitely shows J.J. wanting to plant that seed early on, and then Rian and Domhnall were just piggybacking off of that (because they both obviously knew about the deleted scene in TFA) with their little "last minute editions of Hux being sketchy towards Kylo" in TLJ. Ahhhh, I'm so excited! Hux gaining the upper hand on Kylo is my most favourite overall dramatic plot scenario - by which the rest of the story will enfold on both sides - for IX! Very Happy There's just SO much potential there.

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Re: Kylo vs Hux as Leaders/The First Order thread

Post by Kylo Rey on Sun 28 Jan 2018, 1:55 pm

@nickandnora wrote:
@EchoBase wrote:Now this is interesting. Apparently Hux wanted to kill Kylo in TFA?

https://twitter.com/sleemo_/status/957571504660795394
@EchoBase

*lets out delighted squeal*

To me, this signifies something that I've mentioned before, that as far back as TFA they were looking to position Hux as the main "bad guy" in IX, and the means by which he does this is overthrowing/trapping Kylo Ren. Well this deleted scene definitely shows J.J. wanting to plant that seed early on, and then Rian and Domhnall were just piggybacking off of that (because they both obviously knew about the deleted scene in TFA) with their little "last minute editions of Hux being sketchy towards Kylo" in TLJ. Ahhhh, I'm so excited! Hux gaining the upper hand on Kylo is my most favourite overall dramatic plot scenario - by which the rest of the story will enfold on both sides - for IX! Very Happy There's just SO much potential there.
@nickandnora

Yeah this is a great piece of info and may be highly relevant to IX now JJ is back writing and directing. I had my doubts that he would pick this plot thread up but the fact that this was a deleted scene (and wasn't included in the official deleted scenes on the Blu ray) solidifies that he will probably be itching to continue this into IX.

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Re: Kylo vs Hux as Leaders/The First Order thread

Post by DeeBee on Sun 28 Jan 2018, 5:17 pm

Hello everyone!
@Teo oswald wrote: Rian in this film showed to the public, to us the true human feelings, the imperfect human being. He showed us that not only in the first order
there is chaos but also in the Resistance. The Resistance is imperfect as a human being.  
@”Teo oswald”
Indeed! The resistance are not perfect.. however I think the imperfections of the FO are worse. They may both be flawed, but there is no equivalency here IMHO. Also, I find it interesting that so far they haven’t really shown anyone in the FO trying to save anything they love – other than Kylo/Ben saving Rey.. [I'd say Hux just loves himself!]

@Night Huntress wrote: Hm, I do think he had his own agenda from the beginning. He wasn't as devoted to Snoke and the FO as for example Vader was to the Emperor in my opinion.

He knew Snoke was using him and I don't think he wanted to be his apprentice and subordinate his whole life.
@Night Huntress

Whooo. Interesting.. yes if we think he wanted to rule –  when did he decide he would act on it?
I agree Kylo/Ben had his own agenda.. though I’d say the same is true of Vader and the Emperor. Vader was keeping things from the emperor and had his own side agenda going on.. and when the opportunity came, Vader tried to recruit his son to take down the emperor. There are similarities between Kylo and Vader’s grab for power which I think are deliberate (though they are not identical).

@Night Huntress wrote: My impression was Kylo/Ben didn't plan taking over in that moment- he didn't use Rey for that. You know like "Oh, she shipped herself to me- how convenient. Now I bring her to Snoke so we can kill him and rule together..." I don't know what he expected would happen once he brought her to Snoke- but his expression reveal he wasn't happy at all about the outcome. So he acted out of instinct - protecting Rey and also getting rid of his abuser...after they finished fighting the PG he saw the opportunity and took it.

I share this thinking – the timing and the decision to act was influenced by Rey’s arrival. But, at the same time, Kylo/Ben was not the puppetmaster here just using her to gain power.

It’s interesting… between Rey awaking in the throne room and her shooting at the FO on crait – there is a gap in her story we are left to surmise.. So too with Kylo/Ben – from when Luke blows up the hut, to Rey’s arrival by special delivery on the Supremacy, we aren’t shown what’s happening with Kylo/Ben. Curious.
He was there to meet her. I’m going to guess because of the bond he knew she was coming.
Also, because he believes the force wants him to lead with Rey at his side, I think he sees her arrival as being a sign that this is going to happen!
But.. I think how it’s going to happen is not fully formed.. but nor is it only an instinctual in the moment act.
From the moment Rey arrives I think he is carefully steeling his thoughts to prepare for what is ahead, but he can’t have a fully formed plan or Snoke could have read his thoughts.
I think he knows it’s about to happen also because he knows Snoke will likely want to kill Rey. And he’s not going to stand for that – when he ‘knows’ he and Rey are destined to rule together. (Aside from his romantic feelings for her).


@Night Huntress wrote: Now what kind of Leader will he be?
That's a very difficult question since we didn't get much intel from the movies about his political or ethical motivations.
As a child he experienced the chaos of rebuilding the Republic- the constant arguments that never seemed to be solved...his mother always working on solutions butter never really getting anywhere. Kind of the same issues the Old Republic had. That's why I think he doesn't believe in democracy.
But he also grew up among people who witnessed the cruelty of the Empire under Palpatine.
I have the impression even if he did awful things he do have some kind of honor and he wants to make things better.
And being a force- elitist he do believes that's his destiny.

Hux on the other hand... well I don't think he cares much about other people. He is all about power and prestige.

Many believe he will be the smarter one- I don't think so. He likes to bark orders and appear to be important. I don't think he will outsmart Kylo in being more clever, BUT in contrast to Ben he has no scruple and that he can use to his advantage.

I agree it is a very difficult question to answer  Smile  glad you gave it a go, as I enjoy hearing ideas!
Yes Kylo/Ben is a real mixed bag at the moment..
‘force-elitist’ is a great description! It’s so curious to me though that he could have been working for years toward identifying and killing force sensitives while he himself is gifted in this area. It is one aspect of his history that really turns my stomach.
Where did I pick up this information from? maybe I'm wrong!! Oh well.. Hopefully this will be addressed in IX with the KoR.

Yes! No confusion when it comes to Hux! Lol.. he is a clear cut bad guy with bad motives!  Evil or Very Mad
He is an utter snob!

I agree about Kylo being underestimated and Hux being considered smarter.
If we look at Kylo/Ben’s leadership on crait alone, I can see why this would be how he is viewed.
But as I detailed previously there are signs he could lead smart:
-his shift more toward the light, being less clouded by strong emotions,
-Snoke no longer keeping his emotional wounds open on purpose to manipulate him,
-his faith in the force and his destiny,
-his non conflicted, intelligent, self-controlled dispatching of Snoke

I agree Night Huntress - This could work to Kylo/Ben’s advantage… if he is only seen as an emotional mess – Hux may underestimate him and what he can achieve..[just like Snoke did!]..  if Kylo/Ben can stay non-conflicted and determine a clear path for himself!

@Teo oswald wrote:
@DeeBee

as you said, Kylo / Ben did not want to become a supreme leader, the old creed of the Sith is dead. The student must kill the teacher. He wants to destroy what is old and create something new. In my opinion he is tired of this millennial war between the two factions, he has had a bad adolescence caused also from the war. What hurts us we want to make it disappear. But Kylo does not want to rule alone, he wants Rey as his equal. However, eliminating everything is a bad choice, as Padme said: the path of negotiation is an excellent compromise. now I do not remember who said maybe Rian, Kylo thinks everything he does is right, according to his point of view. Why did Rey not ally with him? because that way of thinking is wrong….
@Teo oswald

Maybe this is a typo here, I’ll just give a little clarification – I did not say that I thought Kylo/Ben did not want to become supreme leader.
I did say others have shared that opinion though. I went on to share my own ideas that support that he did want to be supreme leader. Hope that makes sense..

It's fascinating to look back on the Sith view of leadership – indeed! Kylo killing his master was very Sith, but he didn’t then want to just take over – he wanted to create something new. Also, another difference between Kylo and the Sith is that he wanted to rule with Rey. No Sith would have wanted that. A Sith would have held his hand out and offered for Rey to be his apprentice. How interesting.
I’ve never really stopped to think about this before – in TFA he is offering to be her teacher.. and in TLJ she is now elevated to rule by his side.. Sooooo not a Sith thing to do! this could be a clue that Kylo is not completely taken over by the dark side...

I agree Kylo/Ben is tired of war.. I think he will want to bring an end to the conflict. What is not clear is how he will try to do that.. by increasing the intensity of the conflict to bring it to a close? Or by finding another way? I think we don’t know yet.  

So true! Kylo/Ben is half way to being right – but killing the past is not the answer. Rey was right to not join him IMHO.

@Teo oswald wrote: …In the end we see him again troubled, sad because he did not get what he wanted. He is a supreme leader, the most powerful man, but without the thing he wants more ....
just like a king with a great kingdom, but without the queen what do you do with it?

Oh yes so true. I hope we cut straight to sad and troubled and skip cruel and vengeful! I hope TLJ ended with him turning a corner.. but.. I’m preparing for IX to open with cruel vengeful Kylo/Ben! lol

Kylo/Ben as supreme leader is very powerful so true.. and yet he couldn’t force Rey to join him to really get all that he wants. I don’t know if he would have tried to force her had she not grabbed the saber.. it’s possible, but I think he would have preferred she join willingly.. but we’ll never know..

As Supreme Leader Kylo/Ben is the most powerful person in the galaxy, in a sense..
And with the dynamic that has been set up with Tech Head Hux moving forward, I keep being reminded of what Darth Vader said in A New Hope to an Imperial officer who wants to use the death star:
“Don’t be too proud of this technological terror you’ve constructed. The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the force…
(insert insult at vader.. then vader gives him a force choke)
… I find your lack of faith disturbing. ”

Being Supreme Leader and constructing technological terrors are both insignificant compared to the power of the force. I think being confronted with this truth is inevitable for both Hux and Kylo as leaders in IX!!!!
[here is the clip on youtube..

I don’t think the force choking use in TLJ on Hux is coincidental – I think it’s calling back to this scene because similar themes are playing out..]


@”Echo Base” – thanks for sharing the info about Hux wanting to kill Kylo/Ben on starkiller. Makes total sense!  
A Hux Vs Kylo showdown in IX is going to be super intense and personal.

You know, I kinda like the idea of a non-force sensitive being a big bad, I think it can be done and that without the force, Hux can be a legit threat.  This turns everything on it’s head if this is where it goes.. I love the force users in SW, but the non-force users are also able to act in the galaxy and make a difference – this ties back to Han Solo being a non-force user.. He didn’t use the force and he kicked butt anyway.

@SkyStar wrote: There were so many chances someone could have killed Kylo though - I guess force doesn't want it though because something always happens to interrupt it.
@SkyStar

Totally! I think the force has big plans for Kylo/Ben  Smile I can't wait to find out how things unfold in IX!
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Re: Kylo vs Hux as Leaders/The First Order thread

Post by ISeeAnIsland on Sun 28 Jan 2018, 8:33 pm

@Kylo Rey wrote:
@nickandnora wrote:
@EchoBase wrote:Now this is interesting. Apparently Hux wanted to kill Kylo in TFA?

https://twitter.com/sleemo_/status/957571504660795394
@EchoBase

*lets out delighted squeal*

To me, this signifies something that I've mentioned before, that as far back as TFA they were looking to position Hux as the main "bad guy" in IX, and the means by which he does this is overthrowing/trapping Kylo Ren. Well this deleted scene definitely shows J.J. wanting to plant that seed early on, and then Rian and Domhnall were just piggybacking off of that (because they both obviously knew about the deleted scene in TFA) with their little "last minute editions of Hux being sketchy towards Kylo" in TLJ. Ahhhh, I'm so excited! Hux gaining the upper hand on Kylo is my most favourite overall dramatic plot scenario - by which the rest of the story will enfold on both sides - for IX! Very Happy There's just SO much potential there.
@nickandnora

Yeah this is a great piece of info and may be highly relevant to IX now JJ is back writing and directing. I had my doubts that he would pick this plot thread up but the fact that this was a deleted scene (and wasn't included in the official deleted scenes on the Blu ray) solidifies that he will probably be itching to continue this into IX.

@Kylo Rey

I've been rewatching Breaking Bad during the AMC marathons, and something struck me about the setup for IX with Hux potentially being the "big bad".

Gus Fring (one of my favorite "villain" characters of all time) really felt like the "ultimate big bad" in Seasons 3-4, but Walter is able to have Gus killed in the season 4 finale. (At the time, it wasn't clear if Breaking Bad was even returning for a 5th/final season.) Anyway, it was sort of a similar setup to TLJ/IX going from season 4 to 5 of BB; Walter White had clearly "broken bad" at that point, and there was no clear "big bad" successor to Gus. I remember wondering, "Wow, so I guess Walt is the big bad now?"

And Walt was bad and did many more bad things in the first half of season 5, but in his hubris, he got tangled up with a gang of white supremacists who did end up being the Big Bad. The white supremacists, unlike Gus, had no moral code and killed anyone who might end up being any sort of obstacle, including children, among other things.

So no, we didn't get a "super villain" in the last season of Breaking Bad, but the antagonists that we did have were pretty formidable and did ultimately become catalysts for Walt's redemption at the end.

To tie this back to episode IX, if Hux is corrupt/ruthless enough and if he's got numbers on his side, I think he can prove to be a worthy Big Bad without us having some super Force user like Snoke or Palpatine.
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Re: Kylo vs Hux as Leaders/The First Order thread

Post by DeeBee on Mon 29 Jan 2018, 1:41 am

So are we all thinking Phasma will come back in IX?
Random FO related thought thought:
I came across this in TLJ visual dictionary: 'Phasma and Hux have conspired in the elimination of mutual political rivals'
- uh oh.. If SL Kylo/Ben challenges her stormtrooper program she is not going to just rollover!
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Re: Kylo vs Hux as Leaders/The First Order thread

Post by DeeBee on Sat 03 Feb 2018, 8:32 pm

Hi All, in the 'Snoke in Episode IX' thread - I've suggested Snoke return - take over Hux's body and take back control of the FO! lol...
If they bring him back they may as well go for it haaaaaa.. [ just not taking over Kylo's body please the guy has been through enough.. but General Hugs I'd be happy to see go down this road haaaa]
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Re: Kylo vs Hux as Leaders/The First Order thread

Post by Night Huntress on Sun 04 Feb 2018, 1:20 am

@DeeBee wrote:Hi All, in the 'Snoke in Episode IX' thread - I've suggested Snoke return - take over Hux's body and take back control of the FO! lol...
If they bring him back they may as well go for it haaaaaa.. [ just not taking over Kylo's body please the guy has been through enough.. but General Hugs I'd be happy to see go down this road haaaa]
@DeeBee

Ehm- I don't know about that... I mean everything is possible but I like Hux as Hux to be honest. I know that this kind of dark-side power existed in the old canon but Snoke death is very sudden- I imagine transferring your "soul" into another body even Snoke has to be mentally preparing for. And wouldn't we already see signs of that immediately after his death? I mean Hux seemed very much himself after Snokes death. Nope

Sorry, don't want to lessen your ideas.

It's just that I want Snoke to be permanently out of the way for Ben (and the other characters) to develop without some "big bad" in the background. Not having a big bad Dark-Sider at the last episode is new to Star Wars and l like it very much...

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Re: Kylo vs Hux as Leaders/The First Order thread

Post by DeeBee on Sun 04 Feb 2018, 1:43 am

@Night Huntress wrote:
@DeeBee wrote:Hi All, in the 'Snoke in Episode IX' thread - I've suggested Snoke return - take over Hux's body and take back control of the FO! lol...
If they bring him back they may as well go for it haaaaaa.. [ just not taking over Kylo's body please the guy has been through enough.. but General Hugs I'd be happy to see go down this road haaaa]
@DeeBee

Ehm- I don't know about that... I mean everything is possible but I like Hux as Hux to be honest. I know that this kind of dark-side power existed in the old canon but Snoke death is very sudden- I imagine transferring your "soul" into another body even Snoke has to be mentally preparing for. And wouldn't we already see signs of that immediately after his death? I mean Hux seemed very much himself after Snokes death. Nope

Sorry, don't want to lessen your ideas.

It's just that I want Snoke to be permanently out of the way for Ben (and the other characters) to develop without some "big bad" in the background. Not having a big bad Dark-Sider at the last episode is new to Star Wars and l like it very much...

@Night Huntress

lol that's cool Smile I think I prefer Hux as Hux too Smile
If Snoke came back I'd prefer he be a clone of his younger self. lol.
I realise I sound like a crazy SW fan haaaaa.. I'm just having fun exploring wild what ifs. Thanks for your thoughtful reply Smile

I don't mind if there is a big bad or not in the background - I think there has to be some kind of massive threat in IX - if it is Hux at the helm of the FO and they can pull it off- I'd be happy with that.. but with the whole balancing of the force thing yet to play out maybe, I think the force would need to be central to things and bringing peace, and this could be harder to pull of if the big bad is not a force user, but it is still possible to do. lol I'm sure JJ will come up with something amazing Smile

yeah true, no big bad dark-sider would be new! Some would say this is Kylo/Ben...

Snoke's other hidden apprentice or Knights of Ren as force users could also work as that force element to the antagonists..
Do we know if the KoR are force users? I'm thinking they are not but maybe I'm way off track. anyone?

lol I do like to have lightsaber battles in SW.. and I don't want Rey and Kylo/Ben fighting anymore! lol!
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Re: Kylo vs Hux as Leaders/The First Order thread

Post by Night Huntress on Sun 04 Feb 2018, 1:59 am

@DeeBee

no, you're not crazy. To be fair- I never thought the "Renperor scenario" will be canon for TLJ either- and I hated even the idea before the first real spoilers confirmed this is how things will go. And now I think it was the best possible ending for the story. Laughing

It's possible we will get a new main villain for IX - if it's well done...bring it on. But I please make it more deep- not like those boring villains from the prequels *cough* General Grievous *cough* L-puke

I would like it more if they're using Hux and some of his sympathizers to conspire against Kylo/Ben.
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Re: Kylo vs Hux as Leaders/The First Order thread

Post by DeeBee on Sun 04 Feb 2018, 2:27 am

@Night Huntress wrote:@DeeBee

no, you're not crazy. To be fair- I never thought the "Renperor scenario" will be canon for TLJ either- and I hated even the idea before the first real spoilers confirmed this is how things will go. And now I think it was the best possible ending for the story. Laughing

It's possible we will get a new main villain for IX - if it's well done...bring it on. But I please make it more deep- not like those boring villains from the prequels *cough* General Grievous *cough* L-puke

I would like it more if they're using Hux and some of his sympathizers to conspire against Kylo/Ben.
@Night Huntress

So true! Renperor I didn't see coming either! At this point anything is possible lol! Though lol. maybe not likely and maybe not preferable..

rofl at the general grievous cough haaaa! good one!
You can't get anymore person than your childhood abuser - so there is a plus with Snoke returning in some capacity.
It is also plenty personal between Kylo and Hux huh. every time Kylo force chokes him Hux has got to be plotting revenge!

I can't remember where I said it but I'd like to see the FO try and infiltrate the rebellion with at least one spy. And.. how cool would it be if the spy was a Knight of Ren.. or Snoke's second best apprentice haaa..

Do people think there can be peace in the galaxy if the FO is not destroyed?
Or is their destruction/defeat/demolition kind of obligatory?
Thoughts anyone?
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Re: Kylo vs Hux as Leaders/The First Order thread

Post by Night Huntress on Sun 04 Feb 2018, 4:19 am

@DeeBee wrote:

Do people think there can be peace in the galaxy if the FO is not destroyed?
Or is their destruction/defeat/demolition kind of obligatory?
Thoughts anyone?
@DeeBee

Yeah, I think it has to be destroyed- I just hope they make it more original this time.
My favorite headcanon is that the FO falls apart or will be destroyed from the inside and Ben playing a big role in making that happen.

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Re: Kylo vs Hux as Leaders/The First Order thread

Post by californiagirl on Sun 04 Feb 2018, 1:10 pm

@Night Huntress wrote:
@DeeBee wrote:

Do people think there can be peace in the galaxy if the FO is not destroyed?
Or is their destruction/defeat/demolition kind of obligatory?
Thoughts anyone?
@DeeBee

Yeah, I think it has to be destroyed- I just hope they make it more original this time.
My favorite headcanon is that the FO falls apart or will be destroyed from the inside and Ben playing a big role in making that happen.

@Night Huntress

That is actually my biggest hope after Reylo/Rendemption. By the time Rey starts talking to Kylo again, she is convinced when she sees him in the midst of plotting to bring the First Order down.

Talk about a surprise twist for the audience! The overarching belief is that he is big evil very bad guy now. I'm sure JJ will be accused of undermining Rian's movie, even though it was JJ's TFA that ended with him murdering Han Solo. It would be a nice way to tie both the Force plot/Reylo bond and the political/military plot together. The whole galaxy and its characters can move on and leave the past behind together.
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Re: Kylo vs Hux as Leaders/The First Order thread

Post by Teo oswald on Sun 04 Feb 2018, 2:22 pm

@californiagirl wrote:
@Night Huntress wrote:
@DeeBee wrote:

Do people think there can be peace in the galaxy if the FO is not destroyed?
Or is their destruction/defeat/demolition kind of obligatory?
Thoughts anyone?
@DeeBee

Yeah, I think it has to be destroyed- I just hope they make it more original this time.
My favorite headcanon is that the FO falls apart or will be destroyed from the inside and Ben playing a big role in making that happen.

@Night Huntress

That is actually my biggest hope after Reylo/Rendemption. By the time Rey starts talking to Kylo again, she is convinced when she sees him in the midst of plotting to bring the First Order down.

Talk about a surprise twist for the audience! The overarching belief is that he is big evil very bad guy now. I'm sure JJ will be accused of undermining Rian's movie, even though it was JJ's TFA that ended with him murdering Han Solo. It would be a nice way to tie both the Force plot/Reylo bond and the political/military plot together. The whole galaxy and its characters can move on and leave the past behind together.
@californiagirl

exactly, people think ok kylo is the new supreme leader, the Resistance will win against the first order and Rey will kill Kylo Ren.

We have already seen this kind of ending in the OT. although Luke said that the rebellion was reborn (Poe), that the war has just begun (Finn) and that he will not be the last of the jedi (Rey) this trilogy is a continues to surprise us. The last chapter will not be like the return of the jedi. It would make no sense to constantly repeat the finals, the war between the empire and the rebels.
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Re: Kylo vs Hux as Leaders/The First Order thread

Post by giaciak2 on Mon 05 Feb 2018, 6:43 am

@DeeBee wrote:
@Night Huntress wrote:@DeeBee

no, you're not crazy. To be fair- I never thought the "Renperor scenario" will be canon for TLJ either- and I hated even the idea before the first real spoilers confirmed this is how things will go. And now I think it was the best possible ending for the story. Laughing

It's possible we will get a new main villain for IX - if it's well done...bring it on. But I please make it more deep- not like those boring villains from the prequels *cough* General Grievous *cough* L-puke

I would like it more if they're using Hux and some of his sympathizers to conspire against Kylo/Ben.
@Night Huntress

So true! Renperor I didn't see coming either! At this point anything is possible lol! Though lol. maybe not likely and maybe not preferable..

rofl at the general grievous cough haaaa! good one!
You can't get anymore person than your childhood abuser - so there is a plus with Snoke returning in some capacity.
It is also plenty personal between Kylo and Hux huh. every time Kylo force chokes him Hux has got to be plotting revenge!

I can't remember where I said it but I'd like to see the FO try and infiltrate the rebellion with at least one spy. And.. how cool would it be if the spy was a Knight of Ren.. or Snoke's second best apprentice haaa..

Do people think there can be peace in the galaxy if the FO is not destroyed?
Or is their destruction/defeat/demolition kind of obligatory?
Thoughts anyone?
@DeeBee

What an original idea. Beautiful !
Guys I have an idea .... we give the script to Disney. So 'I will be sure of the happy ending. For me, Rey and Ben must die of old age.
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Re: Kylo vs Hux as Leaders/The First Order thread

Post by snufkin on Mon 05 Feb 2018, 6:55 pm

The Peter Rabbit comedy sounds awful the way Dr Seuss's widow sold out his works for horrible movies because she wanted out spend Joan Croc (Ray Croc of McDonalds' widow) for San Diego area philanthropy (no seriously, they were like Lucille Bluth and Lucille Two in Arrested Development). At least we get these choice Hux quotes from the press tour. The last line points towards him thinking that there will finally be some type of confrontation between Rey and Hux.

But as feared and fussy General Hux in Star Wars: The Force Awakens and The Last Jedi, Gleeson is even more dastardly. In terms of most evil and most deaths caused, you have to go with General Hux," says Gleeson. "He obliterated an entire planet, possibly a solar system. Hux had a pretty messed-up childhood; he's damaged."

But Gleeson jumped at the chance to give his hair a sharp part and play Hux, the ambitious First Order officer engaged in a power struggle with Kylo Ren (Adam Driver) under Supreme Leader Snoke (Andy Serkis) in The Force Awakens.

"I’ve done a lot of characters who seem, at least, to be the good guy," says Gleeson. "So when someone asks you to play something different, you’re like, 'Absolutely.' How would I not do that?"

Hux used his Starkiller base to obliterate several planets of the Galactic Republic before returning for more malicious mayhem against the Resistance in The Last Jedi.

His dark side rival got the better of him as Kylo used the Force to choke Hux, a scene performed with relish by Gleeson. "Normally when people say you choked, it's a bad thing," he says.

It paid off comedically, even if McGregor loses his screen skirmishes to Peter Rabbit and his sister, Cotton-tail — a rabbit voiced by none other than Gleeson's Star Wars rebel nemesis Daisy Ridley. Having Ridley escape his clutches again hurts a little.

"It would've been great if I'd executed Daisy Ridley’s character like (Hux) wanted to in The Last Jedi," Gleeson jokes, still hopeful that evil will prosper in future films. "You never know, there’s a whole other Star Wars to go (in the trilogy)."
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Re: Kylo vs Hux as Leaders/The First Order thread

Post by Teo oswald on Wed 07 Feb 2018, 1:23 am

@snufkin wrote:The Peter Rabbit comedy sounds awful the way Dr Seuss's widow sold out his works for horrible movies because she wanted out spend Joan Croc (Ray Croc of McDonalds' widow) for San Diego area philanthropy (no seriously, they were like Lucille Bluth and Lucille Two in Arrested Development). At least we get these choice Hux quotes from the press tour. The last line points towards him thinking that there will finally be some type of confrontation between Rey and Hux.

But as feared and fussy General Hux in Star Wars: The Force Awakens and The Last Jedi, Gleeson is even more dastardly. In terms of most evil and most deaths caused, you have to go with General Hux," says Gleeson. "He obliterated an entire planet, possibly a solar system. Hux had a pretty messed-up childhood; he's damaged."

But Gleeson jumped at the chance to give his hair a sharp part and play Hux, the ambitious First Order officer engaged in a power struggle with Kylo Ren (Adam Driver) under Supreme Leader Snoke (Andy Serkis) in The Force Awakens.

"I’ve done a lot of characters who seem, at least, to be the good guy," says Gleeson. "So when someone asks you to play something different, you’re like, 'Absolutely.' How would I not do that?"

Hux used his Starkiller base to obliterate several planets of the Galactic Republic before returning for more malicious mayhem against the Resistance in The Last Jedi.

His dark side rival got the better of him as Kylo used the Force to choke Hux, a scene performed with relish by Gleeson. "Normally when people say you choked, it's a bad thing," he says.

It paid off comedically, even if McGregor loses his screen skirmishes to Peter Rabbit and his sister, Cotton-tail — a rabbit voiced by none other than Gleeson's Star Wars rebel nemesis Daisy Ridley. Having Ridley escape his clutches again hurts a little.

"It would've been great if I'd executed Daisy Ridley’s character like (Hux) wanted to in The Last Jedi," Gleeson jokes, still hopeful that evil will prosper in future films. "You never know, there’s a whole other Star Wars to go (in the trilogy)."
@Snufkin

He's been indoctrinated just as much as Kylo has since childhood, but the thing about Hux is that he enjoyed doling out pain, unlike Kylo. He loves power more than anything else. If finding redemption for Kylo Ren may seem like an uphill battle Smile , finding it for Hux is nearly impossible. there subtext in the TFA adjacent novels that his father abused him though?
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Re: Kylo vs Hux as Leaders/The First Order thread

Post by DeeBee on Fri 27 Apr 2018, 2:05 am

Hi All, with plenty of time between now and episode IX, I'm finding myself digging deeper into random SW content..
I've finally gotten my hands on TLJ expanded edition novelisation.. I think I could dig into it till episode IX very happily! This is what I think of on my long commute.. random SW stuff. lol.

Anyway, a random moment caught my eye the other day.. I'm not usually one for knowing all the storm troopers or anything, but when I learn something curious that could be part of the story my interest is sparked!
On page 250 of the novelisation it says:
"The second he heard the tramp of boots, Finn knew what Phasma had ordered for him and Rose. Every stormtrooper battalion had a small number of soldiers assigned to execution duty. But there was no special executioner unit - rather, the assignment was random, and any trooper could draw it. They did so anonymously - executioners' armor never transmitted the number of the trooper beneath it. Unquestioning obedience was the duty of every First Order stormtrooper, and so was enforcing that obedience."

Playing with the idea of a future infiltration of the FO as a stormtrooper - A few things were interesting...
Firstly - I didn't know storm troopers all transmit a number that is their identifier.
Secondly - executioner stormtroopers are assigned randomly, and they are anonymous - this sounds to me like something that can be exploited to infiltrate the FO! Finn would know how this all works!
The visual dictionary says these executioner troopers are assigned on a daily basis to any standard stormtrooper.

A quick look at the starwars databank - and this anonymity seems to be front and centre in their information about these special troopers!


Oh just saw in another part of the visual dictionary that the commanding officer can see their serial number. drat. okay I'm sure there's a way around that! Wink
Well that's cool! may be nothing.. may be something.. but fun to play with anyway  Wink
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