Kylo vs Hux as Leaders/The First Order thread

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Re: Kylo vs Hux as Leaders/The First Order thread

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Re: Kylo vs Hux as Leaders/The First Order thread

Post by DeeBee on Tue 09 Jan 2018, 11:01 pm

@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@ISeeAnIsland wrote:
@Kessel wrote:
@SkyStar wrote:
@DeeBee wrote:One last one.. also from the star wars databank..

There is much emphasis on inexperience in the first order.. and how many officers are very young and inexperienced... This was discussed in TLJ visual dictionary.. which I now don't have access to..
@DeeBee

Of course he was better than others, I felt his pain. He was like an old grumpy teacher. Very Happy
@SkyStar

Omg, I loved this guy! In the short time he was on screen, you could tell he was like, "what happened to my life!?" This guy survived the Empire's fall and now he's surrounded by all these young incompetents like Hux and he knows better than all of them. His irritation was palpable.
@Kessel

One of the few threads that wasn't dropped between the new canon books and TLJ was the emphasis on the young FO officers vs. the older Imperials who had joined the FO. e.g. "The Empire needs children"....well, those children from the Aftermath books, including Armitage Hux, are all grown up now, and we know that Hux used his family connections (and murder) to get the position that he has.

I hope they go with the FO factions in IX. That would be so much more interesting of a factor than the simple "scrappy Resistance rises up again". It also gives Kylo a way to take down the FO (as a redemption move) without actively joining the Resistance.
@ISeeAnIsland

I completely agree. The Resistance/Rebellion is pretty tedious at this point unless they continue to have Poe go down the destructive warpath ... and even then, the FO are just more fun to watch. Like @skystar said, it's like a real workplace ... on steroids of course, lol. But seriously, you have all different types in a workplace. The Rebellion has everyone being all supposedly "noble" and boring. The FO is a real cast of characters. I mean I could see Gary Cole's Bill Lundberg morphing into a less articulate version of Hux lol. He'd just have a coffee cup instead of a cat, lol.

Also, unless they do some massive time jump, there is no realistic way the Rebellion could get rearmed at its previous level. I think Rian destroyed that structure for a reason. They will either become a guerrilla war (terrorist??) group or they factionate themselves and some will go with Ben.

Also, when Leia says "We have all we need," not only is she speaking Ben's line, she is also holding Ben's half of the lightsaber. I still think in the end that Ben will turn out to be "the only hope."
@SoloSideCousin

I’m with you ISeeAnIsland and SoloSideCousin!

Right now the resistance are so few… they are not terribly interesting.
I would love to see the FO get taken down from the inside out.

I’d be feeling more optimistic about this if Kylo had said he wanted to destroy the FO after killing Snoke, but he didn’t.. he pretty much listed everything else and I figure leading the FO is how he was planning to do it.

Of course everything as it currently stands in the story can be thrown out the window in the first five minutes of the movie!
But I have to agree that the resistance isn’t half as interesting right now as the FO is! Lol..

Could the resistance be portrayed as terrorists given the current climate? Phew.. that would be an interesting prospect.
Small plucky resistance shooting the FO out of the sky using a single underestimated ship is all a bit boring at the moment.
I’d love to see them secretly recruit current FO employees.. or even infiltrate the FO with double agents.
A FO split... with Kylo/Ben forming an alliance with the resistance.
A FO internal melt down due to leadership vacuum.
A storm trooper rebellion..
or even a new clone army being brought into things
- could all increase resistance numbers quickly. Any other possibilities?
King Prana has a secret cache of weapons and soldiers? Wink
[Guess I don't want a massive time jump!]
All sounds fun haaaaa.. so many interesting possibilities...

I have to agree - it seems too complicated for Kylo/Ben to officially join the resistance in IX and have that play out..
I was a little uncomfortable with Rey seeing Kylo/Ben as the last hope - and going off to help him so he could turn the tide and help win the war - Because he has been used by so many people for his power...
I'd like to see him not be used by the resistance but contribute to the fight and the freedom of the galaxy on his own terms..
and I'd like to see Rey accept that too - let him be free to choose and just want him to be happy - not for what he can do to help her cause, but because she simply cares about him and wants him to live well.. awh.

Was Leia holding the other half of the lightsabre when she said that SoloSideCousin? If she was I missed it. Can’t wait for those dvds!
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Re: Kylo vs Hux as Leaders/The First Order thread

Post by ISeeAnIsland on Tue 09 Jan 2018, 11:13 pm

@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@ISeeAnIsland wrote:
@Kessel wrote:
@SkyStar wrote:
@DeeBee wrote:One last one.. also from the star wars databank..

There is much emphasis on inexperience in the first order.. and how many officers are very young and inexperienced... This was discussed in TLJ visual dictionary.. which I now don't have access to..
@DeeBee

Of course he was better than others, I felt his pain. He was like an old grumpy teacher. Very Happy
@SkyStar

Omg, I loved this guy! In the short time he was on screen, you could tell he was like, "what happened to my life!?" This guy survived the Empire's fall and now he's surrounded by all these young incompetents like Hux and he knows better than all of them. His irritation was palpable.
@Kessel

One of the few threads that wasn't dropped between the new canon books and TLJ was the emphasis on the young FO officers vs. the older Imperials who had joined the FO. e.g. "The Empire needs children"....well, those children from the Aftermath books, including Armitage Hux, are all grown up now, and we know that Hux used his family connections (and murder) to get the position that he has.

I hope they go with the FO factions in IX.  That would be so much more interesting of a factor than the simple "scrappy Resistance rises up again". It also gives Kylo a way to take down the FO (as a redemption move) without actively joining the Resistance.
@ISeeAnIsland

I completely agree. The Resistance/Rebellion is pretty tedious at this point unless they continue to have Poe go down the destructive warpath ... and even then, the FO are just more fun to watch. Like @skystar said, it's like a real workplace ... on steroids of course, lol.  But seriously,  you have all different types in a workplace. The Rebellion has everyone being all supposedly "noble" and boring. The FO is a real cast of characters. I mean I could see Gary Cole's Bill Lundberg morphing into a less articulate version of Hux lol. He'd just have a coffee cup instead of a cat, lol.

Also, unless they do some massive time jump, there is no realistic way the Rebellion could get rearmed at its previous level. I think Rian destroyed that structure for a reason. They will either become a guerrilla war (terrorist??) group or they factionate themselves and some will go with Ben.

Also, when Leia says "We have all we need," not only is she speaking Ben's line, she is also holding Ben's half of the lightsaber.  I still think in the end that Ben will turn out to be "the only hope."
@SoloSideCousin

Same.  And really, it would make for a much more interesting story for the FO to divide into factions, and for the Resistance to possibly have to choose a side, rather than waiting for the Resistance to power up and getting Rebels vs. Imperials 2.0.

I also think it was foreshadowing about Ben being "our only hope". With Leia and the broken lightsaber, it wasn't exactly subtle.

I have a headcanon where Luke at some point saw a vision of Ben as some sort of savior figure (Mark gave that interview where he talked about seeing Ben as a "chosen one"), and when Ben began to fall, that fueled Luke's disillusionment.
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Re: Kylo vs Hux as Leaders/The First Order thread

Post by SoloSideCousin on Wed 10 Jan 2018, 3:01 am

@ISeeAnIsland wrote:
@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@ISeeAnIsland wrote:
@Kessel wrote:
@SkyStar wrote:
@DeeBee wrote:One last one.. also from the star wars databank..

There is much emphasis on inexperience in the first order.. and how many officers are very young and inexperienced... This was discussed in TLJ visual dictionary.. which I now don't have access to..
@DeeBee

Of course he was better than others, I felt his pain. He was like an old grumpy teacher. Very Happy
@SkyStar

Omg, I loved this guy! In the short time he was on screen, you could tell he was like, "what happened to my life!?" This guy survived the Empire's fall and now he's surrounded by all these young incompetents like Hux and he knows better than all of them. His irritation was palpable.
@Kessel

One of the few threads that wasn't dropped between the new canon books and TLJ was the emphasis on the young FO officers vs. the older Imperials who had joined the FO. e.g. "The Empire needs children"....well, those children from the Aftermath books, including Armitage Hux, are all grown up now, and we know that Hux used his family connections (and murder) to get the position that he has.

I hope they go with the FO factions in IX.  That would be so much more interesting of a factor than the simple "scrappy Resistance rises up again". It also gives Kylo a way to take down the FO (as a redemption move) without actively joining the Resistance.
@ISeeAnIsland

I completely agree. The Resistance/Rebellion is pretty tedious at this point unless they continue to have Poe go down the destructive warpath ... and even then, the FO are just more fun to watch. Like @skystar said, it's like a real workplace ... on steroids of course, lol.  But seriously,  you have all different types in a workplace. The Rebellion has everyone being all supposedly "noble" and boring. The FO is a real cast of characters. I mean I could see Gary Cole's Bill Lundberg morphing into a less articulate version of Hux lol. He'd just have a coffee cup instead of a cat, lol.

Also, unless they do some massive time jump, there is no realistic way the Rebellion could get rearmed at its previous level. I think Rian destroyed that structure for a reason. They will either become a guerrilla war (terrorist??) group or they factionate themselves and some will go with Ben.

Also, when Leia says "We have all we need," not only is she speaking Ben's line, she is also holding Ben's half of the lightsaber.  I still think in the end that Ben will turn out to be "the only hope."
@SoloSideCousin

Same.  And really, it would make for a much more interesting story for the FO to divide into factions, and for the Resistance to possibly have to choose a side, rather than waiting for the Resistance to power up and getting Rebels vs. Imperials 2.0.

I also think it was foreshadowing about Ben being "our only hope". With Leia and the broken lightsaber, it wasn't exactly subtle.

I have a headcanon where Luke at some point saw a vision of Ben as some sort of savior figure (Mark gave that interview where he talked about seeing Ben as a "chosen one"), and when Ben began to fall, that fueled Luke's disillusionment.
@ISeeAnIsland

Actually that is a great point about Luke. I think Mark did implynsome "chosen one" thing with Ben in the EW article. Now in TLJ it played like it was just Luke cultivating Ben's power ... But if both he and Rey had some sort of Heroic Ben vision ... and Han talks to Baby Ben about not taking a straight road to things ... there could be something there.

@deebee, yes Leia has her hand around one half of the lightsaber when she says "We have all we need."
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Re: Kylo vs Hux as Leaders/The First Order thread

Post by DeeBee on Wed 10 Jan 2018, 4:01 pm

@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@ISeeAnIsland wrote:
@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@ISeeAnIsland wrote:
@Kessel wrote:
@SkyStar wrote:
@DeeBee wrote:One last one.. also from the star wars databank..

There is much emphasis on inexperience in the first order.. and how many officers are very young and inexperienced... This was discussed in TLJ visual dictionary.. which I now don't have access to..
@DeeBee

Of course he was better than others, I felt his pain. He was like an old grumpy teacher. Very Happy
@SkyStar

Omg, I loved this guy! In the short time he was on screen, you could tell he was like, "what happened to my life!?" This guy survived the Empire's fall and now he's surrounded by all these young incompetents like Hux and he knows better than all of them. His irritation was palpable.
@Kessel

One of the few threads that wasn't dropped between the new canon books and TLJ was the emphasis on the young FO officers vs. the older Imperials who had joined the FO. e.g. "The Empire needs children"....well, those children from the Aftermath books, including Armitage Hux, are all grown up now, and we know that Hux used his family connections (and murder) to get the position that he has.

I hope they go with the FO factions in IX.  That would be so much more interesting of a factor than the simple "scrappy Resistance rises up again". It also gives Kylo a way to take down the FO (as a redemption move) without actively joining the Resistance.
@ISeeAnIsland

I completely agree. The Resistance/Rebellion is pretty tedious at this point unless they continue to have Poe go down the destructive warpath ... and even then, the FO are just more fun to watch. Like @skystar said, it's like a real workplace ... on steroids of course, lol.  But seriously,  you have all different types in a workplace. The Rebellion has everyone being all supposedly "noble" and boring. The FO is a real cast of characters. I mean I could see Gary Cole's Bill Lundberg morphing into a less articulate version of Hux lol. He'd just have a coffee cup instead of a cat, lol.

Also, unless they do some massive time jump, there is no realistic way the Rebellion could get rearmed at its previous level. I think Rian destroyed that structure for a reason. They will either become a guerrilla war (terrorist??) group or they factionate themselves and some will go with Ben.

Also, when Leia says "We have all we need," not only is she speaking Ben's line, she is also holding Ben's half of the lightsaber.  I still think in the end that Ben will turn out to be "the only hope."
@SoloSideCousin

Same.  And really, it would make for a much more interesting story for the FO to divide into factions, and for the Resistance to possibly have to choose a side, rather than waiting for the Resistance to power up and getting Rebels vs. Imperials 2.0.

I also think it was foreshadowing about Ben being "our only hope". With Leia and the broken lightsaber, it wasn't exactly subtle.

I have a headcanon where Luke at some point saw a vision of Ben as some sort of savior figure (Mark gave that interview where he talked about seeing Ben as a "chosen one"), and when Ben began to fall, that fueled Luke's disillusionment.
@ISeeAnIsland

Actually that is a great point about Luke. I think Mark did implynsome "chosen one" thing with Ben in the EW article. Now in TLJ it played like it was just Luke cultivating Ben's power ... But if both he and Rey had some sort of Heroic Ben vision ... and Han talks to Baby Ben about not taking a straight road to things ... there could be something there.

@deebee, yes Leia has her hand around one half of the lightsaber when she says "We have all we need."
@SoloSideCousin

@ISeeAnIsland - I like your idea of the vision Luke had of Ben. I guess if we had heard that in VIII it could have been too revealing about what's ahead... I think they are intentionally vague about force visions so the plot can still be left to unfold freely..
Yeah I remember reading of the MH interview where he says Luke thought he was a chosen one. But I can't find that it was mentioned at all in TLJ? This idea for me is in the 'more info to come' file I think.

@SoloSideCousin thanks for confirming regarding Leia holding one half of the broken legacy light saber. Awh.
Interesting to consider what it could be foreshadowing at this point and play with this.. Heroic Ben does seem to be involved in some way shape or form! But, I think there are many meanings we can potentially take from this moment..
It could be foreshadowing:
1) Ben being instrumental in saving the galaxy.. [the chosen one to bring balance?]
2) or it could be Ben and Rey together (my preferred option - as there is much reference to the light and dark being united/together/balanced - I lean toward Ben and Rey together being the chosen two acting as one to bring balance and save the galaxy)..
3) or it could be simply the continued existence of the Jedi that is all they need - as there is much emphasis on their existence being a hope at the end of TLJ.
4) or... it could also foreshadow the skywalker legacy still having a role to play through FG Luke, or even FG Anakin.
5) or.. a combination?! Smile
Any other possibilities? We shall see!
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Re: Kylo vs Hux as Leaders/The First Order thread

Post by DeeBee on Wed 24 Jan 2018, 5:21 pm

This thread is a bit of a First order thread. I like it. I don't know why but they are so much more interesting than the resistance at this point. lol. I'm not sure if that is the way I'm supposed to see it Wink
Why am I not rooting for the resistance more? Hmm.. maybe it's because in TLJ, they didn't show much of the first order's evilness in the galaxy.. we got told about it a few times.. but didn't really see it. And I've always thought the destruction of the Hosnian system never really sunk in as the utterly despicable act it was. I felt the destruction of Alderaan much more!
Anyway, I feel like IX needs to start with a reminder of just how evil the FO is. But.. I don't want this to be telling me how evil their new SL is! Am I making sense?

Anyway, I'll share some further random thoughts on Hux vs Kylo/Ben.. since this is the thread for it lol.
Hux may be the joke at times.. but I still find him chillingly evil anyway.
He may not be a force user - but I think it would be a mistake to write him off as no threat to powerful force user Kylo/Ben - Hux has technology and numbers (numbers of troops and guns!) on his side.. and a cunningly dangerous ambition. The hyperspace tracking is an example of this - Everyone thought it was impossible, and no one knew about.. until it was happening..

I think Hux could be a real threat to Kylo/Ben and Rey, and the resistance in IX.
Lastly, I think Hux hates force users full stop - and probably always has (because he isn't one maybe and wants power).
All of Kylo/Ben's choking of Hux, humiliation and domination of Hux, and knocking him out once snoke is dead, will be feeding Hux's fury that Kylo/Ben can do to him so easily. He isn't going to accept this. This all feeds his hate of Kylo/Ben, and force users. I think IMHO he hates all force users with a passion (especially 'the guuuurl'!). I'd even suggest he hates the force!
But, me thinks the force is eventually going to kick his butt Smile
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Re: Kylo vs Hux as Leaders/The First Order thread

Post by rawpowah on Wed 24 Jan 2018, 6:29 pm

When Rian said we'd know who to root for after TLJ, did he mean The Resistance? Because like @DeeBee I really didn't walk out of this movie caring about them. Laughing I walked out of it caring and rooting for Kylo to find happiness lol.

The FO is much interesting because they have so much potential for drama between Kylo and Hux. The Resistance is basically in the Falcon singing Kumbaya, and unless Rey clashes with them and Poe continues to act in an extreme way they're going to stay boring and with the depth of a My Little Pony episode.

I'm really curious to see how the loyalties in the FO will change now that Snoke is gone. Hux still owns the military and probably has more of an interaction with the FO officers and generals, as opposed to Kylo (who seems more into his Force stuff than whatever the FO was building and planning).
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Re: Kylo vs Hux as Leaders/The First Order thread

Post by snufkin on Wed 24 Jan 2018, 6:50 pm

@rawpowah wrote:The Resistance is basically in the Falcon singing Kumbaya, and unless Rey clashes with them and Poe continues to act in an extreme way they're going to stay boring and with the depth of a My Little Pony episode.

Oh dear God, yes! I mean, the actual real world #Resistance political movement which appropriated the name from TFA is so much more interesting, complicated, and a group I 100% identify with. Versus its original cinematic inspiration, which is zzzzzzzzz. I'm not really a fan of Rogue One, but at least they tried to show different factions and subterfuge with characters like Saw and Cassian (one of the best new characters, like I'd rather that they had him in the ST in Poe's position). Even with the OT, the Rebel Alliance at least stayed in the background instead of being center stage. Versus the ST, where I think I'm supposed to identify and care about them? Which other than Leia and Holdo, there's never really been a convincing case. And I care/identify way more with the real world Resistance and unlike a lot of fans, don't confuse the fictional one with that one.

And LOL at My Little Pony. I keep thinking that they're meant to be something bland and uplifting for children like Veggie Tales. Or at best, Degrassi Junior High at Space. Like gimme the First Order and its Mad Men level type of office politics (Hux is so Pete Campbell) if I have to watch the two groups.
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Re: Kylo vs Hux as Leaders/The First Order thread

Post by Piper Maru on Wed 24 Jan 2018, 7:17 pm

@snufkin -- Hux is SO Pete Campbell. I can't believe I've never seen anyone making this parallel in the fandom! So.. Kylo is Don Draper? And Rey is his Peggy because she's the only one who puts him in his place?

The Resistance is boring AF. Leia was the only point of interest for me in that group of characters and now... bleh. I used to think Finn had potential before TFA (the whole Stormtrooper Going Rogue was so interesting to me) but unfortunately he became a comic relief with not a lot of depth and IMO it got worse after TLJ. Poe? I don't care about him. Rose? She's cute and I appreciate the concept of the character, but I felt nothing for her. The only ones I really liked were Paige and Holdo and they're DEAD lol.

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Re: Kylo vs Hux as Leaders/The First Order thread

Post by snufkin on Wed 24 Jan 2018, 7:23 pm

@Piper Maru I was joking to @ISeeanIsland that I'd kill for a scene of Hux after the destruction of SKB or Snoke's murder/Battle of Crait where he does this to somebody like Mitaka





Kylo did get his way into the FO under an assumed name and identity because he's trying to escape who he really is and his past. Though I'd say Ben Solo is more likely to come back at the end versus d**** Whitman always being kept at bay. Rey is maybe Peggy? Or maybe given their not-platonic relationship and her no-bullshit I'm not running away with you because you're running away from who you are, Rey = Rachel Menken at least for now



Yeah I like Paige and Holdo the best and it feels like they were the wrong characters to sacrifice because they're in the same key as Cassian, layered, complicated and played by somebody who can give them an entire life history just through how they carry themselves. I do like Rose. But suspect we're stuck with Poe, a character which takes zero advantage of Oscar Isaac's ability to play weirdness and moral complications.
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Re: Kylo vs Hux as Leaders/The First Order thread

Post by Piper Maru on Wed 24 Jan 2018, 8:35 pm

@snufkin - Of all his affairs, Rachel was the only one that I rooted for Sad And oh, Rey is so Rachel now. Underestimated at the beginning, but turns the tables, impresses the guy, makes him want to run away together and has the good sense to get the hell away from him because he's a complete mess.

About Paige: that actress needs more recognition. Her acting was INCREDIBLE. She barely spoke and her eyes conveyed so much!
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Re: Kylo vs Hux as Leaders/The First Order thread

Post by snufkin on Wed 24 Jan 2018, 9:20 pm

@Piper Maru The only other woman who comes close in terms of him dropping the Don Draper persona and coming close to acknowledging who he was and coming to terms with it was Dr. Faye Miller. But Rachel is very much The One Who Got Away because he has the vision of her near the end of the series, just like Kylo and Rey. Except without Rey dying of leukemia, of course! But their visions lead to the same conclusion, how much he's lost at the conclusion of that particular relationship. Rey's is Ben Solo/Kylo Ren's The One that Got Away (and with the referencing and re-use of some of the original concept art, guess who was going to have a vision back in the OT of the woman he loved and lost?)



I hope the actress who plays Paige gets more recognition and roles because she conveyed so much with so little and in such a compressed period of time. Hopefully we'll get the scenes with her and Rose in the home video release's slate of deleted scenes along with their teased Forces of Destiny appearances. You can definitely tell where Rian's heart was in writing the characters for this film, it wasn't really Finn and Poe as much as it was Rose and Paige.


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Re: Kylo vs Hux as Leaders/The First Order thread

Post by Saracene on Wed 24 Jan 2018, 10:40 pm

Add me to the First Order over The Resistance chorus; juicy drama and bitter rivalry beats Kumbaya Gang hands down. I actually like Poe's arc in TLJ, but now that he's apparently grown into a good responsible leader and Finn has become a good Rebel Scum, and Rose is a good earnest Resistance girl, it's hard to see what growth or drama is left to do. They really need to throw in some tension over Rey's dirty little secret.

And yeah Paige rocks! She and Captain Canady are the real MVPs of the opening battle.
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Re: Kylo vs Hux as Leaders/The First Order thread

Post by nickandnora on Wed 24 Jan 2018, 10:58 pm

I actually like Poe's arc in TLJ, but now that he's apparently grown into a good responsible leader and Finn has become a good Rebel Scum, and Rose is a good earnest Resistance girl, it's hard to see what growth or drama is left to do.
I don't know, Poe misquoting Holdo at the end there when he was having his big revelation (the spark that will "burn the First Order" versus "restore the Republic" contrasted with Rose's "not killing what we hate, but saving what we love") was pretty damn subversive and sneaky and basically tells me everything I need to know about how the conflict *within* the Resistance is going to play out next film. Whether Poe actually continues to learn in the next film as a result of whatever conflict ensues, or is taken down because of it remains to be seen, but I think there's a lot of potential there.

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Re: Kylo vs Hux as Leaders/The First Order thread

Post by IoJovi on Wed 24 Jan 2018, 11:10 pm

@nickandnora wrote:
I actually like Poe's arc in TLJ, but now that he's apparently grown into a good responsible leader and Finn has become a good Rebel Scum, and Rose is a good earnest Resistance girl, it's hard to see what growth or drama is left to do.
I don't know, Poe misquoting Holdo at the end there when he was having his big revelation (the spark that will "burn the First Order" versus "restore the Republic" contrasted with Rose's "not killing what we hate, but saving what we love") was pretty damn subversive and sneaky and basically tells me everything I need to know about how the conflict *within* the Resistance is going to play out next film. Whether Poe actually continues to learn in the next film as a result of whatever conflict ensues, or is taken down because of it remains to be seen, but I think there's a lot of potential there.
@nickandnora

Excellent catch!! I really do think Poe, while not an outright villain in IX will continue to display some antagonistic traits. I could see him exploiting Rey and her Force powers (giving her yet another reason to sympathize with Ben) or worse, discovering the Force Bond and wreaking havoc for both of them.
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Re: Kylo vs Hux as Leaders/The First Order thread

Post by Saracene on Wed 24 Jan 2018, 11:12 pm

@nickandnora wrote:
I actually like Poe's arc in TLJ, but now that he's apparently grown into a good responsible leader and Finn has become a good Rebel Scum, and Rose is a good earnest Resistance girl, it's hard to see what growth or drama is left to do.
I don't know, Poe misquoting Holdo at the end there when he was having his big revelation (the spark that will "burn the First Order" versus "restore the Republic" contrasted with Rose's "not killing what we hate, but saving what we love") was pretty damn subversive and sneaky and basically tells me everything I need to know about how the conflict *within* the Resistance is going to play out next film. Whether Poe actually continues to learn in the next film as a result of whatever conflict ensues, or is taken down because of it remains to be seen, but I think there's a lot of potential there.
@nickandnora

I didn't see it that way personally; yes Poe rephrases Holdo's original quote, but the overall gist of the exchange is about Poe absorbing Holdo's lesson on the importance of the Resistance's survival, vs Finn urging for everyone to come out with guns blazing and help out Luke. And then it finishes with Leia going, "what are you looking at me for, follow him" and smiling fondly.

And despite Rose's pacifist nonsense, um yeah the FO needs to be defeated.
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Re: Kylo vs Hux as Leaders/The First Order thread

Post by nickandnora on Wed 24 Jan 2018, 11:22 pm

@Saracene wrote:
@nickandnora wrote:
I actually like Poe's arc in TLJ, but now that he's apparently grown into a good responsible leader and Finn has become a good Rebel Scum, and Rose is a good earnest Resistance girl, it's hard to see what growth or drama is left to do.
I don't know, Poe misquoting Holdo at the end there when he was having his big revelation (the spark that will "burn the First Order" versus "restore the Republic" contrasted with Rose's "not killing what we hate, but saving what we love") was pretty damn subversive and sneaky and basically tells me everything I need to know about how the conflict *within* the Resistance is going to play out next film. Whether Poe actually continues to learn in the next film as a result of whatever conflict ensues, or is taken down because of it remains to be seen, but I think there's a lot of potential there.
@nickandnora

I didn't see it that way personally; yes Poe rephrases Holdo's original quote, but the overall gist of the exchange is about Poe absorbing Holdo's lesson on the importance of the Resistance's survival, vs Finn urging for everyone to come out with guns blazing and help out Luke. And then it finishes with Leia going, "what are you looking at me for, follow him" and smiling fondly.

And despite Rose's pacifist nonsense, um yeah the FO needs to be defeated.
@Saracene

Well yes, that's exactly what it accomplishes in this film. But I do suspect that little "error" was placed there as a wink and a nod to where the conflict will lie next time around. Obviously the FO needs to be defeated, but at the very least I think they are setting up some different ideologies causing some drama in the practical application of said ideologies. For example (I'll use something not Rey/Kylo related because I'm obviously biased in that area), it might be setting up Finn orchestrating a Stormtrooper rebellion that basically helps take out the First Order, and then his good buddy Poe turning around and wanting to punish said Stormtroopers for being on the wrong side to begin with. That's just one example.

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Re: Kylo vs Hux as Leaders/The First Order thread

Post by Saracene on Wed 24 Jan 2018, 11:35 pm

@nickandnora I can't say for sure what's planned for the next episode, but personally I'm mighty sceptical about them ever rocking the Resistance boat with a genuine ideological rift. They had a chance to do it in TLJ, but in the end the Poe/Holdo conflict essentially boiled down to "characters not talking to each other" and was resolved with a bow on top with Holdo and Leia going, awww aren't these rash flyboys cute. So I really don't expect anything bold or subversive there.

As for whether the film intends for the audience to root for the Resistance, well if they finish the movie with a cute stable boy with the Resistance ring, yeah totally. It's just that the kid has a bad luck of appearing in one segment of the film most of the audience doesn't seem to care for or actively hates.
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Re: Kylo vs Hux as Leaders/The First Order thread

Post by Night Huntress on Thu 25 Jan 2018, 1:29 am

@Saracene wrote:

I didn't see it that way personally; yes Poe rephrases Holdo's original quote, but the overall gist of the exchange is about Poe absorbing Holdo's lesson on the importance of the Resistance's survival, vs Finn urging for everyone to come out with guns blazing and help out Luke. And then it finishes with Leia going, "what are you looking at me for, follow him" and smiling fondly.

And despite Rose's pacifist nonsense, um yeah the FO needs to be defeated.
@Saracene

I have to admit- I loved TLJ but that's one point that truly bothered me. After everything Poe messed up, Leia (and also Holdo before they parted ways) just shrug it off- "children- they are trouble at times but mean well..." WTF??? Don't get me wrong I like Poe- I liked him because they made him an reckless idiot and not just the shining hero without flaws. BUT why do they treat him at the end like he haven't done anything wrong??? Leia's behavior made my really mad. She gave up her own son everything and Poe did was forgiven and forgotten? Not to compare Poe's crimes with Ben's but some consequences would have been reasonable- not implying "he is your next leader" after all the lives he threw away without showing remorse.
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Re: Kylo vs Hux as Leaders/The First Order thread

Post by cherrylipstick on Thu 25 Jan 2018, 2:02 am

@Saracene wrote:@nickandnora I can't say for sure what's planned for the next episode, but personally I'm mighty sceptical about them ever rocking the Resistance boat with a genuine ideological rift. They had a chance to do it in TLJ, but in the end the Poe/Holdo conflict essentially boiled down to "characters not talking to each other" and was resolved with a bow on top with Holdo and Leia going, awww aren't these rash flyboys cute. So I really don't expect anything bold or subversive there.

As for whether the film intends for the audience to root for the Resistance, well if they finish the movie with a cute stable boy with the Resistance ring, yeah totally. It's just that the kid has a bad luck of appearing in one segment of the film most of the audience doesn't seem to care for or actively hates.
@Saracene

Yes I agree.
I don't think that we are supposed to dislike the Resistance at the end of the movie, or to root for the FO. Especially not with the movie ending with what remains of the Resistance smiling and hugging on the MF and talking about hope and reconstruction. And then broomboy and the ring... we are supposed to root for the Resistance, as always, because they are the good guys against the bad guys *yawningsmileyhere*

If they wanted to show the Resistance in a bad light, I think that they would have already done it in this movie when they had the chances.
We have seen with DJ that even the good guys rely on arms dealers, and I found it very interesting and realistic. A grey area.
And for all the drama between Holdo and Poe... it was caused by a lack of communication and not because Poe is a bad guy. Yes he makes a lot of mistakes, but that's because is a cute impulsive flyboy too eager to defeat the FO. Now he has learned the lesson and with Leia's blessing he will be the new leader Rolling Eyes  Ehem  
I didn't really appreciated this, but with Star Wars I don't expect big revolutionary developments in the war between bad and good guys.

That's why I'm a little skeptical about the Resistance plot in next movie, I would like to see something different and new. I cannot stand to see them outnumbered, hidden in some lost rebel base, hunted by the powerful FO AGAIN... we've already seen this dynamic in almost every movie. Give me something different, something surprising please!

That's why I have great expectations in Hux, he can be the destabilizing factor in the story and he can provide something interesting in the FO plot.
I hope in some kind of coup and treason against Kylo, and given his poor opinion of stormtroopers, Hux could also provide an opportunity to make Finn more important in the story. There are unfinished business between them and Finn could finally become more useful leading a stormtrooper rebellion.
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Re: Kylo vs Hux as Leaders/The First Order thread

Post by DeeBee on Thu 25 Jan 2018, 3:16 am

@rawpowah rofl. kombaya Smile

Loving reading thoughts on the blah resistance. I like them.. and I do root for their cause.. but.. meh..
yeah the resistance came off looking like a bunch of dingbats who failed.. but survived.. I know we are supposed to feel inspired by Luke's actions and all but the resistance seems deflated. Maybe its because I know Leia can't be front and centre in IX.
If I didn't know that, I'd probably be more invested.
I think as things draw to a conclusion in the war, differences amongst the cause could become more pronounced - say if Kylo/Ben as SL offers to draw up a peace treaty at some point.. or if Kylo/Ben and his splinter FO group decide they want to form an alliance. That could get interesting if some think Hell no. and others think yes please..

I think ambiguity amongst the ranks is an interesting idea but maybe too gray for the final movie.. I'd like something more dramatic.

What if they join up with some other resistance fighters and we all like them all.. rah rah.. and one of them turns out to be a spy sent to infiltrate their ranks - that could be cool. With such small numbers they are going to need to incorporate new recruits, and they won't have Leia's wisdom and years of experience.. someone who is very likeable betray them in some way that we didn't see coming..

Whoooo what if Snoke's second apprentice infiltrates the resistance/rebellion???!!! and it's a big surprise reveal?!!
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Re: Kylo vs Hux as Leaders/The First Order thread

Post by SoloSideCousin on Thu 25 Jan 2018, 11:05 am

@nickandnora wrote:
I actually like Poe's arc in TLJ, but now that he's apparently grown into a good responsible leader and Finn has become a good Rebel Scum, and Rose is a good earnest Resistance girl, it's hard to see what growth or drama is left to do.
I don't know, Poe misquoting Holdo at the end there when he was having his big revelation (the spark that will "burn the First Order" versus "restore the Republic" contrasted with Rose's "not killing what we hate, but saving what we love") was pretty damn subversive and sneaky and basically tells me everything I need to know about how the conflict *within* the Resistance is going to play out next film. Whether Poe actually continues to learn in the next film as a result of whatever conflict ensues, or is taken down because of it remains to be seen, but I think there's a lot of potential there.
@nickandnora

I am holding onto that bit for dear life as a sign that the Kumbaya MF is a subversion, because if not Rian effed up mightily and completely negated all the awesome reality and groundbreaking nature of the first 2/3 of the movie. And even worse, he genuinely thinks we should sympathize with no remorse Poe and those Kumbaya idiots on the Falcon. But worst of all, it says that making the long-term abused kid, whose uncle came this close to killing the only whipping boy and the only one to face consequences to be right and good, when it is not at all.
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Re: Kylo vs Hux as Leaders/The First Order thread

Post by snufkin on Thu 25 Jan 2018, 11:30 am

@SoloSideCousin I wish too, but I don't think we're going to get it. The Kumbaya moment and Luke f**king up but getting his moment of redemption at the end were meant to placate the traditionalists who would otherwise not be happy with the direction the ST took. We definitely didn't get any of the internecine NR space politics which made Bloodline so great and which felt like stage setting for TLJ. Hopefully we at least get some type of rift in the FO because it feels like there are multiple groups behind it which are out for their own self interests versus Kylo sort of bumbling into control of it after what happened with Snoke and Rey. And we know that he's not cool with the child soldier program for Stormtroopers and now that he's dated the type of person who's been neglected/exploited by the larger forces controlling the galaxy, he's in a position to do something about it.
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Re: Kylo vs Hux as Leaders/The First Order thread

Post by SoloSideCousin on Thu 25 Jan 2018, 12:11 pm

@snufkin wrote:@SoloSideCousin I wish too, but I don't think we're going to get it. The Kumbaya moment and Luke f**king up but getting his moment of redemption at the end were meant to placate the traditionalists who would otherwise not be happy with the direction the ST took. We definitely didn't get any of the internecine NR space politics which made Bloodline so great and which felt like stage setting for TLJ. Hopefully we at least get some type of rift in the FO because it feels like there are multiple groups behind it which are out for their own self interests versus Kylo sort of bumbling into control of it after what happened with Snoke and Rey. And we know that he's not cool with the child soldier program for Stormtroopers and now that he's dated the type of person who's been neglected/exploited by the larger forces controlling the galaxy, he's in a position to do something about it.
@snufkin

Yeah, I hear you. :-( But to quote Taylor Swift of all people, "It's like driving a Masarati down a dead-end street." So much amazing potential, just to be cut off.
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Re: Kylo vs Hux as Leaders/The First Order thread

Post by ISeeAnIsland on Thu 25 Jan 2018, 12:14 pm

@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@nickandnora wrote:
I actually like Poe's arc in TLJ, but now that he's apparently grown into a good responsible leader and Finn has become a good Rebel Scum, and Rose is a good earnest Resistance girl, it's hard to see what growth or drama is left to do.
I don't know, Poe misquoting Holdo at the end there when he was having his big revelation (the spark that will "burn the First Order" versus "restore the Republic" contrasted with Rose's "not killing what we hate, but saving what we love") was pretty damn subversive and sneaky and basically tells me everything I need to know about how the conflict *within* the Resistance is going to play out next film. Whether Poe actually continues to learn in the next film as a result of whatever conflict ensues, or is taken down because of it remains to be seen, but I think there's a lot of potential there.
@nickandnora

I am holding onto that bit for dear life as a sign that the Kumbaya MF is a subversion, because if not Rian effed up mightily and completely negated all the awesome reality and groundbreaking nature of the first 2/3 of the movie. And even worse, he genuinely thinks we should sympathize with no remorse Poe and those Kumbaya idiots on the Falcon. But worst of all, it says that making the long-term abused kid, whose uncle came this close to killing the only whipping boy and the only one to face consequences to be right and good, when it is not at all.
@SoloSideCousin

I don't know that we'll get an outright subversion of Kumbaya MF, but I don't think there's any evidence whatsoever that Poe will react in a positive/constructive way to finding out about the Force Bond between Rey and Ben...especially if that bond is still active (and why wouldn't it be?) and word spreads that Kylo is now Supreme Leader. Poe is either going to be p***** and won't trust Rey, he'll want to exploit that bond (and I think him wanting to exploit the bond is going to be more likely). I can't see Rey going for that...she's not going to want to be used as a tool against Kylo/Ben.

I mean if there's any sort of a significant time jump, JJ could just push everything that happened in the throne room under the rug for IX, but there's a lot more dramatic potential in Poe, et al, finding out about what happened in the Throne Room and Rey's role in it. Being Rey, I suspect that she'll keep quiet about it at first, but if word gets out that the FO think that Rey was the one who killed Snoke, of course, the Resistance will have questions about that.
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