The Renperor thread

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Re: The Renperor thread

Post by PalmettoBlue on Mon 01 Jan 2018, 2:18 pm

Given how little information we have, I reserve the right to change my mind, but I think renperor.
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Re: The Renperor thread

Post by FrolickingFizzgig on Mon 01 Jan 2018, 2:22 pm

@rey09 wrote:I can't see this Renperor thing getting that deep. At the end of the day, he leads the FO. He has lost lost everything, will be nihilistic about everything and will be on cruise control when it comes to taking down the resistance/new rebellion. It will be a repeat of ROTJ politically with an evolved reylo dynamic.
@rey09
I'm already not a fan of Benperor. I just don't find it interesting, personally. I've always been a big supporter of Kylo actually being largely wrong in his mission. His backstory works wonders but ultimately he's still wrong. He's still on the dark side, he's still trying to sever all his ties and destroy everything from his past. His delusions were partly shattered in TLJ but he's got a way to go. Suddenly becoming a benevolent ruler clashes with his character arc, IMHO. Like, what about his whole "let it die" thing? Benperor doesn't work with the narrative I've experienced or the character I've interpreted. Not that I don't think it could be a good story, but I'm just not seeing it.

I'm absolutely willing to see whatever, though.
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Re: The Renperor thread

Post by MeadowofAshes on Mon 01 Jan 2018, 2:34 pm

FWIW I can see both sides as equally valid story directions JJ could take. I am planting myself firmly on Team Benperor as a matter of personal taste, so my arguments will center around why I find it more narratively satisfying.

Thematically: Balance. The Force says on some level they were both wrong because the saber wouldn't choose a side. This implies Ben is right in some manner. In what way was he right if not in rulership of the galaxy? Ben might be wrong in his methods, but it remains to be seen what changes he wants to make in the galaxy. They may just align more with something Rey may want to see (better living conditions for people like her and Rose, for instance) than Rey realizes, and usurping the throne puts him in a unique position to right all the wrongs of the galaxy as he sees fit.

Raising the Stakes on Personal Choice: If Ben is a benevolent Renperor, it raises the stakes for his choice to abdicate the throne to be with Rey. This also raises the stakes in her choice to be with him -- she has to give up her attachment to the Resistance.

Character Development: Ben needs to mature on his own, away from Rey, just as she needs to mature away from him, before they can have a successful romance. We assume Rey will mature on her own, but if Ben is simply the Renperor no one wants, how does this mature him as a character? Choosing to be the best leader that is within possibility for him would force Ben to grow up.

Fairy Tale Motifs: The Supreme Leader and the Scavenger stays in alignment with The Prince and the Pauper/ Royalty and Commoner motifs.

Where We Left Off in TLJ: Although Hux is already plotting to kill Ren, Ren does not end the movie in the same Raging Renperor position he was in when he usurped the throne. TLJ leaves our Supreme Leader on his knees, crying and begging with his eyes for the scavenger girl to take him back. Then the chance at being a pair disappears, leaving him humbled and broken. He is not left in a position to bounce back and destroy the Rebellion. Being truly alone would either have him wallowing in depression or forced to step up and make something of himself, perhaps the pair in sequence.
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Re: The Renperor thread

Post by ZioRen on Mon 01 Jan 2018, 3:49 pm

I honestly don't see them making Kylo a good or benevolent leader. It would be interesting, but I highly doubt it's going to get that deep. I think he's going to start IX thoroughly in the wrong and needing to be stopped. Preferably he'll end up stopping himself and maybe in the process, Hux's coup will gain strength.

I hope I'm wrong, but I'm seriously not holding my breath after being so wrong on Kylo starting his redemption early, in TLJ.
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Re: The Renperor thread

Post by rawpowah on Mon 01 Jan 2018, 4:15 pm

If TFA was childhood and TLJ was adolescence, then IX should be adulthood. This implies maturity and learning from one's failures. TLJ was all about failure and basically all the characters failed in their mission, so in order for them to grow they have to show that they have learned. In his last scene, Kylo seems to be realizing he has failed because he has lost Rey. So, logically, IX should be about Kylo growing up, realizing what he did wrong and attempting to make reparations.

Taking all of that into consideration, I'd be in favor of a Benperor scenario, where Ben genuinely tries to be a good leader, with really mixed results due to Hux's interference and the FO being against whatever measures Ben would choose to implement. This would cause the FO to split and the Resistance to capitalize on the division. Ben might have good intentions, but using the FO to apply his measures would be a bad decision.

As for what Ben might do as a leader, that's ultimately up to JJ. We know from TFA that he is skeptical of Hux's stormtrooper program and prefers a clone army. So discontinuing the stormtrooper program could be something he might want to do, not only because he disapproves of the program itself, but also because it would weaken Hux's position. A stormtrooper storyline would also tie in nicely with Finn, as we're all expecting a stormtrooper rebellion of sorts (which would also spare us many boring scenes of the Resistance hopping from planet to planet in search of allies, and it would not require a huge time jump for the Resistance to get its sith together). Furthermore, if Rey finds out that Ben actually has good intentions when he talks about ruling the galaxy, she would change her opinion about him. His intentions might be good, but he's going about them the wrong way.

Btw, do we know what Ben means when he says he wants to finish what his grandfather started? Does he want to do what Anakin said in Attack of the Clones , or is he talking strictly about the Force? Or maybe Ben realized he will never be Vader, so he will have to figure himself out and what he wants to do with his power, which could work well if we're talking about a redemption arc (as he would be using his power in an attempt to atone).

But idk if JJ "Ashes of his enemies" Abrams is willing to go this deep.
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Re: The Renperor thread

Post by Night Huntress on Mon 01 Jan 2018, 4:16 pm

@ZioRen wrote:I honestly don't see them making Kylo a good or benevolent leader. It would be interesting, but I highly doubt it's going to get that deep. I think he's going to start IX thoroughly in the wrong and needing to be stopped. Preferably he'll end up stopping himself and maybe in the process, Hux's coup will gain strength.

I hope I'm wrong, but I'm seriously not holding my breath after being so wrong on Kylo starting his redemption early, in TLJ.
@ZioRen

I was wrong about his early redemption in TLJ as well- and of course I can be wrong again... but IF they go with the bad vengeful violent Renperor Kylo in IX they must do something pretty early in the movie to change his course. Late act I or early act II to - either throw him of his throne or him abandoning it willingly. His character needs to mature and evolve- if he stays like at the end of TLJ for the most of the next movie I'm not even sure I want him redeemed anymore. They can just freaking kill him off or sacrificing himself and then- sorry to say this-  I really see no point in the whole ST. Nope

Maybe it will be something completely different or they do something in the middle. Like Ben/Kylo wants to change things, but fails because the FO is a far to corrupted organization to be changed into a peaceful government. Who knows - but in my opinion we saw enough of evil emo anger-tantrum Kylo Ren... it's time they show us his good heart and compassion - not just for Rey but for other beings in general.
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Re: The Renperor thread

Post by ZioRen on Mon 01 Jan 2018, 4:41 pm

@Night Huntress wrote:
@ZioRen wrote:I honestly don't see them making Kylo a good or benevolent leader. It would be interesting, but I highly doubt it's going to get that deep. I think he's going to start IX thoroughly in the wrong and needing to be stopped. Preferably he'll end up stopping himself and maybe in the process, Hux's coup will gain strength.

I hope I'm wrong, but I'm seriously not holding my breath after being so wrong on Kylo starting his redemption early, in TLJ.
@ZioRen

I was wrong about his early redemption in TLJ as well- and of course I can be wrong again... but IF they go with the bad vengeful violent Renperor Kylo in IX they must do something pretty early in the movie to change his course. Late act I or early act II to - either throw him of his throne or him abandoning it willingly. His character needs to mature and evolve- if he stays like at the end of TLJ for the most of the next movie I'm not even sure I want him redeemed anymore. They can just freaking kill him off or sacrificing himself and then- sorry to say this-  I really see no point in the whole ST. Nope

Maybe it will be something completely different or they do something in the middle. Like Ben/Kylo wants to change things, but fails because the FO is a far to corrupted organization to be changed into a peaceful government. Who knows - but in my opinion we saw enough of evil emo anger-tantrum Kylo Ren... it's time they show us his good heart and compassion - not just for Rey but for other beings in general.
@Night Huntress

Considerations like this are the reason I'm incredibly wary of a long timeskip. The more they pile on Kylo, the more "redemption by death" looks like a possibility. I don't question his redemption at all, it's going to happen, but I still question whether he'll survive. Just because I think it makes no sense thematically or for Kylo's arc to kill him doesn't mean they won't do it. I also thought they'd never kill Luke, but here we are.
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Re: The Renperor thread

Post by DeeBee on Mon 01 Jan 2018, 5:15 pm

@MeadowofAshes wrote:The time has come to choose a side. You must choose: Team Renperor or Team Benperor?

Renperor: Kylo Ren will be a #Terrible Renperor who is hated by everyone the galaxy over. Hux and Poe will both be batting to bring him down. It won't last 5 minutes before Reylo becomes an Us Against the Galaxy situation.
Benperor: Kylo Ren will mature and become a #Benevolent Renperor for a time, still despised by Hux and the Resistance equally, but with the rest of the galaxy's backing, now he has more to lose by choosing to give up all he ever thought he wanted to be with the woman he loves.
@MeadowofAshes

Love this MeadowofAshes! Tough to pick a team though!
I am leaning toward a combination of the two!
I’d like to see Ben be miserable/lonely as SL. But, I’d also like to see evidence he is wanting to rule with his humanity and heart. Not with vengeance and cruelty.
So, IX could start with him ruling, trying to rule and reform the FO alone. Missing Rey Feeling more alone than ever.. The FO leadership hates what he is trying to do – and plots to get rid of him.. I lean toward the FO being too rotten to be reformed.. ironically- here is where Ben’s tactic of destroying and starting over might be a good plan ..
I would like to see Ben make a choice to leave the position – even if the FO leadership gives him a good shove at the same time..

@Night Huntress wrote: I'll choose team Benperor. Not sure how realistic it is.. but it would make a much more interesting story in my opinion.

I read a FF yesterday with kind of that scenario. And it was so well written that I can actually see that happening. A conversation between Ben and Hux is still fresh in my memory."General Hux what causes rebellions?" Hux answers with: "Ignorance, Savagery and Lies spread by enemies." Ben contradicts him: "No, Rebellions are born from fear and suffering. They rise out of starvation not having the tools and income you need to put a roof over your head and that of your family. We will not force their loyalty thru fear, history has shown such methods only work for a short time and soon you have to fight an uprising. We'll have to make them trust us to keep them fed and save..."

It would be a great opportunity to show Ben really wants to start something new- make things better and not just being power-hungry.
He IS Leia's son and the grandson of Padmé - he should have inherited some of those political skills and not just the Skywalker/Solo temper.
It would also show his offer to Rey in a totally different light.
@Night Huntress

I agree! What he tries to do once he is in leadership is a great opportunity to show Ben’s path toward redemption – the end of TLJ saw him go ballistic.. with just that final moment showing us he is broken – I’ve seen the movie with a number of different people who are all convinced there is no redeeming him. I think early IX needs to spell it out for the GA who don’t maybe analyse things so much as someone like me eek.

What Ben intends to do with the FO leadership is at this point IMHO lacking in detail.. we know he wanted to finish what vader started.. rule the galaxy.. create something new.. and he wanted to use the FO resources to destroy the past (wipe out the resistance, and all who had hurt him in the past). But at the end of TLJ – this all seems to have come crashing down around him. I don’t know how I’m gonna wait two years to find out what happens! Grrr.. Hopefully TLJ novelisation and commentary will shed some light on things..
I was able to do with this LOTR for a year between movies – but we knew how that story ended!! Gah!!

@Night Huntress wrote:
@SkyStar wrote:
@Saracene wrote:I can't really pick either team, because it doesn't matter how well-intentioned Kylo is. If you're in charge of a Plain Evil organization like the FO you have to dismantle it completely to have any chance of a truly benevolent rulership. And I don't see that happening.
@Saracene

Right. The thing that doesn't sit right with me is the stormtrooper program. He needs to get rid off it, otherwise how is that good. At the same time, who will fight for the FO?
@SkyStar

either Clones or he will make it appealing with other incentives...I can really see him do this. The question is: will he be able to access the same resources Snoke had? We still don't really now how the FO were funded.
@Night Huntress
I’m thinking the FO is not unlike the roman empire; when expanding, they gain resources by consuming the resources of the conquered, and this funds continued expansion and domination. Rose described her mining planet’s resources being exploited by the FO and then bombed to test the weapons..
This form of exploitative expansion would seem to be in direct contradiction to the force – and the cycles of life… which indicates the FO is indeed a dark side dominated corporation that exploits and does not respect the force. Spells doom IMHO for the FO!


Last edited by DeeBee on Mon 01 Jan 2018, 5:17 pm; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : comments were cut off :( again.. and again.. and again..)
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Re: The Renperor thread

Post by Rei of Sunshine on Mon 01 Jan 2018, 11:20 pm

For me the problem with Renperor is it shows Kylo hasn't learned his lesson at all. He'll just remain the sad sob poor whiny brat who everybody will have to kill because he's gotten annoying already. No growth in a character as important as the last Skywalker is just sad.

Going the Renperor route would make redemption more difficult. Sure he could change his ways and views halfway, but that brings us closer to Redemption by Death and let's be honest, we don't want that.

As Benperor he may still make decisions that reflect his previous turmoil, but he'll mostly try to be a different person. And it's not like being Benperor he won't have hurdles. Hux is still there to question all his decisions and I doubt Hux will let Benperor always have his way.
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Re: The Renperor thread

Post by ISeeAnIsland on Mon 01 Jan 2018, 11:23 pm

@Rei of Sunshine wrote:For me the problem with Renperor is it shows Kylo hasn't learned his lesson at all. He'll just remain the sad sob poor whiny brat who everybody will have to kill because he's gotten annoying already. No growth in a character as important as the last Skywalker is just sad.

Going the Renperor route would make redemption more difficult. Sure he could change his ways and views halfway, but that brings us closer to Redemption by Death and let's be honest, we don't want that.

As Benperor he may still make decisions that reflect his previous turmoil, but he'll mostly try to be a different person. And it's not like being Benperor he won't have hurdles. Hux is still there to question all his decisions and I doubt Hux will let Benperor always have his way.
@Rei of Sunshine

This is the biggest issue that I see with Renporer, unless he's usurped relatively early in Episode IX. He looked completely broken at the end of TLJ; Episode IX should reflect the fallout from that.
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Re: The Renperor thread

Post by CienaRee on Tue 02 Jan 2018, 2:33 am

@ISeeAnIsland wrote:
@Rei of Sunshine wrote:For me the problem with Renperor is it shows Kylo hasn't learned his lesson at all. He'll just remain the sad sob poor whiny brat who everybody will have to kill because he's gotten annoying already. No growth in a character as important as the last Skywalker is just sad.

Going the Renperor route would make redemption more difficult. Sure he could change his ways and views halfway, but that brings us closer to Redemption by Death and let's be honest, we don't want that.

As Benperor he may still make decisions that reflect his previous turmoil, but he'll mostly try to be a different person. And it's not like being Benperor he won't have hurdles. Hux is still there to question all his decisions and I doubt Hux will let Benperor always have his way.
@Rei of Sunshine

This is the biggest issue that I see with Renporer, unless he's usurped relatively early in Episode IX. He looked completely broken at the end of TLJ; Episode IX should reflect the fallout from that.
@ISeeAnIsland

I'm team Benperor as well I think it's a more interesting possibility story wise.I mean we keep saying Kylo has to save himself and I think him trying to be a somewhat benevolent Supreme Leader is an excellent opportunity to show that.Not only would it serve as a contrast to Snoke and Hux but also Kylo trying to do the right thing while clashing with Hux could make him realize how corrupted the FO is and serve as part of his redemption.
I'm not trying to make a headcanon or something I'm just looking at it from a storytelling's POV: Kylo's already had his biggest breakdown at the end of TLK and both movies have shown him having tantrums and being unbalanced.It's time for him to grow and change so the audience can root for him just like they did when he teamed up with Rey.It will be even more important now that he'll be the last Skywalker in the saga that's about the Skywalkers.

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Re: The Renperor thread

Post by Night Huntress on Tue 02 Jan 2018, 3:51 am

I think it would be a great opportunity for him to change himself... for Rey but also for his own sake.

I don't think Benperor would need a big time-jump... it's not about him succeeding in making the galaxy a better place- more about his intention to try (and most likely fail)... without Snoke to poison his mind and all the bad triggers from his past gone, I just can't see him as a cruel, merciless ruler.  Nope

like DeeBee mentioned the FO most likely exploit their conquered systems and profit from slavery. Kylo wanting to change that and get rid of the Stormtrooper program would make him a target within the higher ranks of the FO like Hux.

Maybe Kylo/Ben will intention or unintentionally destroy the FO from within by causing conflict and separate faction. It's also possible the FO will fall apart like the Empire after Palpatine/Vader died because they just can't settle on who should be their rightful new leader.Confus

I know SW isn't realistic but without a huge time jump I can't see how the resistance can be any match for the FO... at least not after what it was shown us by the end of TLJ. They are barely anyone left and their allies haven't answered to the sent emergency call from Crait. So how should they recruit groups or Systems so quickly? Ok, we have the possibility of a Stormtrooper uprising or an uprising in several Systems under the control of the FO but even with that scenario I can't see how they could win.

That's why I hope we don't get a RotJ ending in IX - It's totally unrealistic even for SW (and would be lame Razz )
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Re: The Renperor thread

Post by Starliteprism on Tue 02 Jan 2018, 4:20 am

@MeadowofAshes wrote:FWIW I can see both sides as equally valid story directions JJ could take. I am planting myself firmly on Team Benperor as a matter of personal taste, so my arguments will center around why I find it more narratively satisfying.

Thematically: Balance. The Force says on some level they were both wrong because the saber wouldn't choose a side. This implies Ben is right in some manner. In what way was he right if not in rulership of the galaxy? Ben might be wrong in his methods, but it remains to be seen what changes he wants to make in the galaxy. They may just align more with something Rey may want to see (better living conditions for people like her and Rose, for instance) than Rey realizes, and usurping the throne puts him in a unique position to right all the wrongs of the galaxy as he sees fit.

Raising the Stakes on Personal Choice: If Ben is a benevolent Renperor, it raises the stakes for his choice to abdicate the throne to be with Rey. This also raises the stakes in her choice to be with him -- she has to give up her attachment to the Resistance.

Character Development: Ben needs to mature on his own, away from Rey, just as she needs to mature away from him, before they can have a successful romance. We assume Rey will mature on her own, but if Ben is simply the Renperor no one wants, how does this mature him as a character? Choosing to be the best leader that is within possibility for him would force Ben to grow up.

Fairy Tale Motifs: The Supreme Leader and the Scavenger stays in alignment with The Prince and the Pauper/ Royalty and Commoner motifs.

Where We Left Off in TLJ: Although Hux is already plotting to kill Ren, Ren does not end the movie in the same Raging Renperor position he was in when he usurped the throne. TLJ leaves our Supreme Leader on his knees, crying and begging with his eyes for the scavenger girl to take him back. Then the chance at being a pair disappears, leaving him humbled and broken. He is not left in a position to bounce back and destroy the Rebellion. Being truly alone would either have him wallowing in depression or forced to step up and make something of himself, perhaps the pair in sequence.
@MeadowofAshes

In essence, at least my take on it, is that the (force projected) dice represent not a chance that could be taken (since both Kylo/Ben and Rey were both in the wrong in their intentions on the Supremacy), but maybe if/when Ben comes across the real dice, real deal, that is the REAL chance taken. It was more of a signpost on the side of the road, highlighting the fact that, through good choices and actions, he can be on the right track to get where he feels he belongs. I am assuming the real dice are still on the Falcon, with Rey.

I love how the two dice are connected together, they have to "roll" together, they are on their journey of chance together. ;-)
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Re: The Renperor thread

Post by Cowgirlsamurai on Tue 02 Jan 2018, 9:54 am

I can't make up my mind about Benperor vs. Renperor, but now that we've seen Darth Darcy, I really want Kylo to do something kind for Rey (like saving a friend or assisting them in a mission) behind her back.
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Re: The Renperor thread

Post by Rei of Sunshine on Tue 02 Jan 2018, 10:27 am

I really want Ep IX to be the "Lydia and Wickham marriage" part of Darth Darcy's arc.

Please Ben, don't screw this up!
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Re: The Renperor thread

Post by lauvamp on Tue 02 Jan 2018, 10:33 am

I do like Renperor concept, I find it sexy and Kylo Ren deserves a majestic position, but I have no idea how this role is gonna work. I mean, Rencraziness against the rebels...again? I think he reached his anger highest point, and after that, void and loneliness.
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Re: The Renperor thread

Post by FrolickingFizzgig on Tue 02 Jan 2018, 10:49 am

Renperor doesn't make redemption more difficult or redemption by death more likely at all. I'm not sure why anybody just assume that. Narrative details like that all depend on what kind of redemption story IX goes into. There are too many unforeseen variables right now, but I'm struggling to understand how Kylo could undergo huge chunks of character development off-screen, shift his goals entirely and become a great Emperor. Going into IX his intentions should still revolve around destroying everything from the past.
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Re: The Renperor thread

Post by ZioRen on Tue 02 Jan 2018, 11:02 am

@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:Renperor doesn't make redemption more difficult or redemption by death more likely at all. I'm not sure why anybody just assume that. Narrative details like that all depend on what kind of redemption story IX goes into. There are too many unforeseen variables right now, but I'm struggling to understand how Kylo could undergo huge chunks of character development off-screen, shift his goals entirely and become a great Emperor. Going into IX his intentions should still revolve around destroying everything from the past.
@FrolickingFizzgig

Kylo might think he'll build something benevolent and great AFTER he's "destroyed it all" but yeah, he has to get through part one first. I think his focus will be on wiping out opposition.

As Matt Martin said, Kylo stated his intentions at the end of TLJ. They're not going to have him grow past them off-screen. I think we'll start off IX with him firmly in that mode still.
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Re: The Renperor thread

Post by Tex on Tue 02 Jan 2018, 11:04 am

@Cowgirlsamurai wrote:I can't make up my mind about Benperor vs. Renperor, but now that we've seen Darth Darcy, I really want Kylo to do something kind for Rey (like saving a friend or assisting them in a mission) behind her back.
@Cowgirlsamurai

This has been on my mind. Darth Darcy needs to secretly do something kind for Rey and a "surely you know it was all for you" moment. Right now I'm leaning towards Benperor, only because I think the audience will expect for Kylo to be a horrible leader. With everything we just got in TLJ why not surprise us and show that Kylo actually does have some leadership skills. He is Leia's son after all, but quickly have any progress he's made snuffed out by Hux.



This probably belongs over in the predictions thread, but I kind of want Hux to shoot Kylo/Ben in the back when he's finally reunited with Rey. I crave the drama of it all Cool

I also would love if they had Rey being confronted about the proposal she received from Supreme Leader Kylo and their Force Skyping, similar to Elizabeth being confronted by Lady Catherine.
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Re: The Renperor thread

Post by MindAndMagic on Tue 02 Jan 2018, 11:31 am

It really depends on what kind of approach JJ wants to take with Kylo’s redemption. Technically, it has already started. He is finally free from Snoke’s poisonous influence and mental torture and now it’s up to him to choose his path. Nobody else can do that for him. TLJ got both Rey and Kylo to a place of greater maturity where they will have to rely on their own strength and judgment to guide them forward. It’s clear from multiple hints scattered through the movie starting with Snoke’s taunting remark “You have too much of your father’s heart in you” and ending with his final scene where Ben is completely emotionally broken after failing to get closure with his uncle and being rejected by Rey (seemingly for good, obviously not, but that’s what he probably believes at the moment): he has achieved everything, but is more miserable than ever before. It’s even worse than the end of TFA because he was so close to achieving both salvation and love, but his obsessive desire to erase the past by destroying it failed him. He still cant let go of those destructive feelings that eat him up inside.

The way I see it, a redemption arc normally involves a character realising he’s been wrong in his beliefs or actions and doing something (eg a meaningful sacrifice) to make amends/purify his soul. This is why in my mind, the more wrong and misguided Kylo is, the better. The eventual realisation and emotional catharsis would be that much more impactful. I honestly expect him to cry in Rey’s arms at some point in IX. I remember my first thought when I watched the scene whee he says to Luke (voice cracking, betraying his insecurity) “I’ll destroy her and you, and all of it.” I thought: he is going to crack so hard in IX. And sure enough, as if it confirm that, we see the look he gives Rey at the end. Murderous intent right there (!) He is pretty much halfway there in terms of redemption, but there’s more growing up to go through since TLJ is not the end of the story. If it was, he would have been redeemed already, but you can clearly see it in his angry outbursts and hasty, passionate offer to Rey that he is not quite ready yet. They both aren’t regardless of their growing feelings and intense connection, which will only get stronger with time. In this line of thought, as I said, it’s all about how they choose to approach it, but as of right now, I don’t really think a benevolent Supreme Leader scenario works based on what we’ve been given. He still wants to destroy it all, that’s the way to get closure in his mind right now, the only possibility he currently sees. There’s also anger at failing yet again: to win Rey over and to stand up to his uncle. Becoming Supreme Leader is a Pyrrhic victory, it wasn’t his original intention, but after being left all alone he might fall back into this dark place and act out to cope with the pain (“I’m a monster, so I’ll behave like a monster”).

Hux is certainly more genuinely blood thirsty than Kylo is and I do expect clashes to happen there, but I also think it’s very likely Kylo will appear quite angry and determined at least outwardly for a portion of the movie. I see him switching back and forth between anger and grief over Rey’s rejection, but ultimately he won’t be able to hurt her, especially after what happened between them. He killed his master for her. They’re bound forever and they both know it. One thing is for sure, the Force bond will feature again now that it’s been established and it’s also possible that one or both sides might want to use it to their advantage (if others find out about it) and inadvertently drive the two of them to each other, ie “nobody else understands what’s this thing between us.” There are so many possibilities, but alas we have to wait a while before we find out. Smile
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Re: The Renperor thread

Post by lauvamp on Tue 02 Jan 2018, 11:52 am

@MindAndMagic

Bravo! Claps it all makes sense. I hope this would be a prediction
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Re: The Renperor thread

Post by snufkin on Tue 02 Jan 2018, 11:55 am

We'll see if he learns his lesson from Crait at least and manages to keep his emotions in check going forward. Because the whole point of offing Snoke was that he had mastery of himself in that moment and was able to save Rey. Otherwise, I'd love to see either Mad Bad and Dangerous to Know mode, a la Heathcliffe after he's gained control of Thrushcross Grange. Or he'll be like another famous nerdy fictional Ben, who bombed utterly as a leader



Otherwise LOL at nearly every single review or hot take which summarizes him as becoming a villain par excellence with this move. Like have you guys seen him in action? He needs a technocrat like Hux, who's going to back stab him the first chance he gets (I'm torn between the chance to see ugly office politics between the two of them versus how really the ST works best when he's 1 on 1 with Rey).
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Re: The Renperor thread

Post by FrolickingFizzgig on Tue 02 Jan 2018, 12:09 pm

Exactly @MindAndMagic. Writers go into stories with goals and in well told stories foreshadowing for those goals can be seen throughout. It's like building a house of cards. Look at VIII for example. Kylo is very sad and emotionally distraught throughout 2/3 of the film and takes his developmental shift toward the end of Act II, when he steps up, kills his master and confesses his desires to Rey. As the story was foreshadowing he goes full #Revolution (there are tons of hints throughout TLJ). That was the natural development for a more vulnerable "puppy eyes" Kylo.

Now, I expect to see something quite different in IX, with an angrier, more vengeful Kylo leading to a genuine shattering of delusions and a noble sacrifice. The more wrong and misguided he is the better. Two films of development and a lifetime of abuse and suffering are going to come crashing down on him. There is absolutely no need to complicate the narrative with Kylo becoming Benperor. It takes the focus off what matters: the conflict between Rey and Kylo and the FO/Rebellion. Kylo losing his focus on Rey and the Rebellion was just be... blah (at least to me). He's an emotionally high-strung character who is on the last leg of his redemption arc. Rian navigated the character through a sympathetic backstory and patricide and developed his relationship with Rey. Now we're entering IX with a "star crossed lovers" backdrop that is absolutely perfect for the conclusive chapter. JJ does not have his work cut out for him.
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Re: The Renperor thread

Post by Cowgirlsamurai on Tue 02 Jan 2018, 12:17 pm

@MindAndMagic wrote:Hux is certainly more genuinely blood thirsty than Kylo is and I do expect clashes to happen there, but I also think it’s very likely Kylo will appear quite angry and determined at least outwardly for a portion of the movie. I see him switching back and forth between anger and grief over Rey’s rejection, but ultimately he won’t be able to hurt her, especially after what happened between them. He killed his master for her. They’re bound forever and they both know it. One thing is for sure, the Force bond will feature again now that it’s been established and it’s also possible that one or both sides might want to use it to their advantage (if others find out about it) and inadvertently drive the two of them to each other, ie “nobody else understands what’s this thing between us.” There are so many possibilities, but alas we have to wait a while before we find out.

So what's going to finally crack him? His feelings for Rey will melt him with time?

Rey already tried the intervention thing and it didn't completely work. I keep thinking that animosity with Hux, general unhappiness with the FO, and further interactions with Rey will work on his dark heart, but there has to be a turning point. I would say something to do with his mom, but...?
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Re: The Renperor thread

Post by Night Huntress on Tue 02 Jan 2018, 12:17 pm

@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:Renperor doesn't make redemption more difficult or redemption by death more likely at all. I'm not sure why anybody just assume that. Narrative details like that all depend on what kind of redemption story IX goes into. There are too many unforeseen variables right now, but I'm struggling to understand how Kylo could undergo huge chunks of character development off-screen, shift his goals entirely and become a great Emperor. Going into IX his intentions should still revolve around destroying everything from the past.
@FrolickingFizzgig

And who exactly should he want to destroy? There is nothing/nobody left from his past. Han, Snoke, Luke & Leia will die most likely at the beginning of IX. Chasing and destroying the handful of resistance survivors as his only goal??? really? Nope

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