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Post by Piper Maru on Mon 15 Jan 2018, 7:44 pm

@MyOnlyHope -- I really like the bit about Snoke, because one of the reasons I never got invested in the theories surrounding him is because he had absolutely no relationship with Rey, the heroine. Yes, he was crucial for Kylo's story, but apart from the "bring her to me" foreshadowing and all his dirty old man behavior in the throne room, he really had nothing to do with Rey or her story. It was always about Kylo and being a plot device to put him in the right narrative place anyone behind the scenes trying to take his agency away.
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Post by IoJovi on Mon 15 Jan 2018, 7:54 pm

@Piper Maru wrote:@MyOnlyHope -- I really like the bit about Snoke, because one of the reasons I never got invested in the theories surrounding him is because he had absolutely no relationship with Rey, the heroine. Yes, he was crucial for Kylo's story, but apart from the "bring her to me" foreshadowing and all his dirty old man behavior in the throne room, he really had nothing to do with Rey or her story. It was always about Kylo and being a plot device to put him in the right narrative place anyone behind the scenes trying to take his agency away.
@Piper Maru

Yeah count me in as one of those who wasn’t upset with no Snoke backstory. We didn’t get one for Palpatine in the OT, so why is it necessary for Snoke, who essentially fills the same role? I personally thought the entire throne room scene was fantastic from start to finish, including him being taken out in the most spectacular way possible.

The main conflict now for IX is TRULY Rey and Ben. Both their masters been taken out of the equation which can only mean more screen time for them together. That is NEVER a bad thing!!! Laughing
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Post by SoloSideCousin on Mon 15 Jan 2018, 7:55 pm

@Piper Maru wrote:The manipulation doesn't bother me because Rian gives context to it -- it's not a romantic manipulation, he's not trying to gaslight her. He's trying to make her see his side by being brutally honest.

About Rey "coming back to her shell": I agree with this interpretation and it's 100% valid but at the end of the day, it's a movie, a visual media, and I need to see it on screen. Telling me that she feels bad doesn't really help.
@Piper Maru

Yeah, her coming from the throne room being all cheery about shooting TIE fighters was really off-putting. I came out of my first viewing thinking that she barely gave a sith about him at all, that basically she was hot for him, but essentially just wanted to use him for the Resistance's purposes and that she just bolted when she didn't get everything she wanted.  I came out of the movie not wanting Reylo. I wanted somebody like Rooney Mara cast as Kylo's childhood KoR friend who he realizes he always loved, while Rey gets stuck with Poe, and eventually realizes what she threw away.

I was that mad, and I think a lot of it came down to the acting. I am very into acting and wanted to be an actor when I was younger,  so acting is a primary thing for me when I watch movies.

So I think two things happened on that first viewing.  (1) Adam Driver completely blew me away with performance so much that I became completely engrossed in Kylo and barely noticed Rey, and (2) she really didn't look like she gave a damn about him after the throne room. To this day I think Daisy's acting at the top of the ramp was either weak or purposely opaque, and honestly when she talks about the Resistance while holding the broken lightsaber,  while talking to his mother, and never says a word about him kind of makes me sick. I shouldn't have to rely on essays about how she is returning to form. They needed to give something more concrete than her looking sadly at Finn.  By not doing that they are playing mystery box again and not being authentic.  Rey has not been written well enough nor has she had enough screentime for the audience to see her phony cheery layer without significantly analyzing the movie.
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Post by FrolickingFizzgig on Mon 15 Jan 2018, 8:02 pm

It's not even funny how much I don't care about the opinions of Annes who see things in one-dimensional, black and white terms and block out any interpretation that doesn't match theirs -- even the f***ing directors'.

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I love this interview. It's so good, from the Snoke stuff to the Luke stuff to the Kylo and Rey stuff. Given what's in TLJ I certainly didn't expect to hear only positive things about the relationship, but Rian always approaches their scenes with care. He really respects both characters and it shows.
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Post by Cowgirlsamurai on Mon 15 Jan 2018, 8:02 pm

@SoloSideCousin

I understand your feelings in regards to Rey at the end because I got “Reylo is over” vibes after first watch. I felt like Rey had given Kylo a chance, decided she was wrong about Ben Solo returning, and bailed. I think that’s Rian leaving the possibilities open for Episode 9. The writer could continue with Rey’s feelings for him, or decide that he’s back to an enemy in her eyes. Rian trolled all of the other fan theories in the movie so I felt trolled as well. You want Reylo? Here’s your Reylo. Now let’s move on. Evil or Very Mad I was mad.
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Post by Saracene on Mon 15 Jan 2018, 8:24 pm

@Piper Maru wrote:The manipulation doesn't bother me because Rian gives context to it -- it's not a romantic manipulation, he's not trying to gaslight her. He's trying to make her see his side by being brutally honest.

About Rey "coming back to her shell": I agree with this interpretation and it's 100% valid but at the end of the day, it's a movie, a visual media, and I need to see it on screen. Telling me that she feels bad doesn't really help.
@Piper Maru

Even though I love the movie, the way Rey is handled in the end bugs the sith out of me. You absolutely need an in-between scene bridging "hero's darkest moment" and "hero bounces back". Luke gets it with his Yoda scene, but with Rey I just feel this total disconnect and she's supposed to be the friggin' protagonist.

I do actually think though that this lack of emotional clarity from Rey bodes very well for Reylo going into Episode IX. There'd be no need to skip over Rey's emotions if it was a simple case of, it's all over. Like, in their final scene Rey could have said something truly final and withering, but she doesn't and her expression is more like someone who's trying to suppress their emotions.

Also, while I can see where Rian is coming from re: Rey's parentage and the challenge it presents, I'm not sure if it really works to be honest. Thing is, I never got the sense that Rey was somehow counting on her parentage to give her a sense of purpose, or that she hoped that her parents were someone important. She was very clearly counting on *Luke* to give her a sense of how she fits into all of this - she in fact states this. So for her to be then suddenly heartbroken in the throne room because her parents were nobody feels like it's coming from nowhere (or rather that it's coming from the real world where Rey's parentage was made into the huge issue that never existed in the films). Also, comparing it to the Vader reveal makes no sense when the movie indicates that Rey herself always knew the truth and chose to bury it. It's not a scene where the hero learns some devastating truth - it's a scene where the hero is forced to confront the truth she's always known - the fact that her parents were scumbags who threw her away.
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Post by Cowgirlsamurai on Mon 15 Jan 2018, 8:34 pm

@Saracene

Yes. There was a lot of, what I felt was unnecessary build up to the “nobodies” reveal. That’s what I mean by Rian trolling the fans. “You want to know who her parents are? Really? She does too! Oh what? Kylo knows? The magic mirror’s going to show her? Nope! Kylo saw them in his vision. Guess what? She knew they were randoms all along, and that info didn’t matter!”
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Post by whisperingwillow on Mon 15 Jan 2018, 8:38 pm

@Cowgirlsamurai wrote:@Saracene

Yes. There was a lot of, what I felt was unnecessary build up to the “nobodies” reveal. That’s what I mean by Rian trolling the fans. “You want to know who her parents are? Really? She does too! Oh what? Kylo knows? The magic mirror’s going to show her? Nope! Kylo saw them in his vision. Guess what? She knew they were randoms all along, and that info didn’t matter!”
@Cowgirlsamurai

The problem with that is he wrote the story before TFA came out. Maybe he had some idea that the parents would be an issue (and maybe LF was fine with that because it kept somethings hidden) but I don't think he went out with the purpose of trolling fans because he had already completed the script. The problem is people got so invested in who her parents were that they missed the fact that the question of Rey's parents had already been answered (they didn't matter).
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Post by snufkin on Mon 15 Jan 2018, 8:44 pm

He's said that he wrote the story and was working with Carrie Fisher before TFA even came out into theaters. So there's breaking 4th wall stuff, but he had no idea what fan theories would come up about Rey's origins.
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Post by Cowgirlsamurai on Mon 15 Jan 2018, 8:48 pm

@whisperingwillow wrote:
@Cowgirlsamurai wrote:@Saracene

Yes. There was a lot of, what I felt was unnecessary build up to the “nobodies” reveal. That’s what I mean by Rian trolling the fans. “You want to know who her parents are? Really? She does too! Oh what? Kylo knows? The magic mirror’s going to show her? Nope! Kylo saw them in his vision. Guess what? She knew they were randoms all along, and that info didn’t matter!”
@Cowgirlsamurai

The problem with that is he wrote the story before TFA came out. Maybe he had some idea that the parents would be an issue (and maybe LF was fine with that because it kept somethings hidden) but I don't think he went out with the purpose of trolling fans because he had already completed the script. The problem is people got so invested in who her parents were that they missed the fact that the question of Rey's parents had already been answered (they didn't matter).
@whisperingwillow

I think he predicted what people were going to expect and wanted to do the opposite of that and it came off as fan trolling. It’s genius in a way. Luke? Not Rey’s dad and not a Jedi anymore. Snoke? Gone. Reylo? It’d never work out, but here was a taste. That’s just how I felt after one viewing...
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Post by tukicarreno on Mon 15 Jan 2018, 8:56 pm

@IoJovi wrote:
@Piper Maru wrote:@MyOnlyHope -- I really like the bit about Snoke, because one of the reasons I never got invested in the theories surrounding him is because he had absolutely no relationship with Rey, the heroine. Yes, he was crucial for Kylo's story, but apart from the "bring her to me" foreshadowing and all his dirty old man behavior in the throne room, he really had nothing to do with Rey or her story. It was always about Kylo and being a plot device to put him in the right narrative place anyone behind the scenes trying to take his agency away.
@Piper Maru

Yeah count me in as one of those who wasn’t upset with no Snoke backstory. We didn’t get one for Palpatine in the OT, so why is it necessary for Snoke, who essentially fills the same role? I personally thought the entire throne room scene was fantastic from start to finish, including him being taken out in the most spectacular way possible.

The main conflict now for IX is TRULY Rey and Ben. Both their masters been taken out of the equation which can only mean more screen time for them together. That is NEVER a bad thing!!! Laughing
@IoJovi

Do you think their screen time together in IX will also happen via force bond moments? Or will they meet each other towards the second/ third act? I am hoping it's combination of both . Maybe the force bond is rekindled by Leia's death..
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Post by Saracene on Mon 15 Jan 2018, 9:00 pm

@Cowgirlsamurai wrote:@Saracene

Yes. There was a lot of, what I felt was unnecessary build up to the “nobodies” reveal. That’s what I mean by Rian trolling the fans. “You want to know who her parents are? Really? She does too! Oh what? Kylo knows? The magic mirror’s going to show her? Nope! Kylo saw them in his vision. Guess what? She knew they were randoms all along, and that info didn’t matter!”
@Cowgirlsamurai

It wouldn't be a problem if the "nobody" reveal was actually meaningful to Rey. But this writing with the fanbase/outside world dictating, rather than the internal story/character, never really works. It has to work on both levels, internal and external.

Like, I thought that both of the major nods to the OT - Leia's hologram message and Yoda's cameo - worked beautifully as fanservice *and* something that makes perfect sense within the story.
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Post by whisperingwillow on Mon 15 Jan 2018, 9:01 pm

@Cowgirlsamurai wrote:
@whisperingwillow wrote:
@Cowgirlsamurai wrote:@Saracene

Yes. There was a lot of, what I felt was unnecessary build up to the “nobodies” reveal. That’s what I mean by Rian trolling the fans. “You want to know who her parents are? Really? She does too! Oh what? Kylo knows? The magic mirror’s going to show her? Nope! Kylo saw them in his vision. Guess what? She knew they were randoms all along, and that info didn’t matter!”
@Cowgirlsamurai

The problem with that is he wrote the story before TFA came out. Maybe he had some idea that the parents would be an issue (and maybe LF was fine with that because it kept somethings hidden) but I don't think he went out with the purpose of trolling fans because he had already completed the script. The problem is people got so invested in who her parents were that they missed the fact that the question of Rey's parents had already been answered (they didn't matter).
@whisperingwillow

I think he predicted what people were going to expect and wanted to do the opposite of that and it came off as fan trolling. It’s genius in a way. Luke? Not Rey’s dad and not a Jedi anymore. Snoke? Gone. Reylo? It’d never work out, but here was a taste. That’s just how I felt after one viewing...
@Cowgirlsamurai

I can see that. I went in with spoilers so I knew what to expect somewhat but it took me two viewings fully form my opinion on it. But I actually never thought it would be the end of Reylo because where is the drama and suspense of the last episode if not for that? I took issues with some things but I never worried about that.
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Post by FrolickingFizzgig on Mon 15 Jan 2018, 9:01 pm

I got the sense Rian actually wanted to inverse what Empire did. In Empire the parentage reveal comes out of nowhere and catches you off-guard, while in TLJ Rey is actively seeking out this information despite knowing it deep down already. It's painfully obvious in retrospect. Lots of lines in TFA pointed to Rey Orphan as the most poignant and impactful reveal for the character and the story. It also adds new weight to why she couldn't sell BB-8 for portions. She was severely traumatized by what happened and became the poster child for denial as she wasted 14 years waiting for a family she already knew was dead.

TFA and TLJ flow well in the "Rey's parentage" department. Rey wants to belong. That is her driving motive in TLJ in many ways and being surrounded by all these legends makes her question that even more. She has always thought that her parents would give her that belonging, even after Maz's speech to her on Takodana, and in TLJ she is forced to accept that Maz was right. She can't rely on Han, Luke, Leia, Kylo or anybody else for her belonging. She has to write her own story, so to speak. That was my takeaway.

And that's not to say Ben won't provide her with belonging. In many ways he already has, but Kylo is still as in denial as Rey once was about his past. Ironically Rey is the one who gets over that hurdle in TLJ. Kylo goes on and on about "killing" the past, but he's as obsessed with it as ever when the movie ends while Rey is looking toward the future for the first time ever thanks to their interactions. Had they not shared what they did Rey may never have been able to accept the truth. They are both characters who were ruled by childhood trauma and handled it in different ways, but Rey couldn't rot away in the darkness of her trauma with him.

Of course, the story isn't over and we have a whole other movie to tackle the mess that is their connection. Very Happy
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Post by nickandnora on Mon 15 Jan 2018, 9:08 pm

I think he predicted what people were going to expect and wanted to do the opposite of that and it came off as fan trolling. It’s genius in a way. Luke? Not Rey’s dad and not a Jedi anymore. Snoke? Gone. Reylo? It’d never work out, but here was a taste. That’s just how I felt after one viewing...

@Cowgirlsamurai This is just personal opinion, but while there were hints in TFA regarding Reylo in retrospect, it was too much of a wisp of an idea, too much in the subtext for Rian to preemptively know that the audience was going to want it, and that he should tease it and snatch it away. I can totally buy him flipping expectations about Luke and Snoke on their heads, because the expectations regarding them were pretty transparent, but to me, Reylo IS the subverted expectation. They're *slooowwwwly* revealing something surprising with Rey/Kylo, not teasing what is expected and then subverting it. That's the difference between Luke, Snoke, and Reylo in the scenario you just mentioned, and why I don't think Rian went into TLJ trying to mess with Reylo fans; I think he was just telling the Rey/Kylo story the way they always intended to tell it.

I have no idea if that made a lick of sense, lol. But as always, I know what I was trying to say.

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Post by Cowgirlsamurai on Mon 15 Jan 2018, 9:16 pm

@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:I got the sense Rian actually wanted to inverse what Empire did. In Empire the parentage reveal comes out of nowhere and catches you off-guard, while in TLJ Rey is actively seeking out this information despite knowing it deep down already. It's painfully obvious in retrospect. Lots of lines in TFA pointed to Rey Orphan as the most poignant and impactful reveal for the character and the story. It also adds new weight to why she couldn't sell for portions. She was severely traumatized by what happened and became the poster child for denial as she wasted 14 years waiting for a family she already knew was dead.

TFA and TLJ flow well in the "Rey's parentage" department. Rey wants to belong. That is her driving motive in TLJ in many ways and being surrounded by all these legends makes her question that even more. She has always thought that her parents would give her that belonging, even after Maz's speech to her on Takodana, and in TLJ she is forced to accept that Maz was right. She can't rely on Han, Luke, Leia, Kylo or anybody else for her belonging. She has to writer her own story, so to speak. That was my takeaway, anyway.
@FrolickingFizzgig

Maybe that’s why the over the top “nobodies” reveal felt off to me. WE were already expecting it based on what we interpreted from TFA, so it was like, why all the added drama over the parentage thing again? Then Rey decides to leave and is shown with her happy mask on in the Falcon. There’s a big disconnect there for me. Whether she’s traumatized by Ben not turning, or him making her feel like “nothing,” or both, in the previous scene, it could’ve been shown more than the sad look at the very end. Couldn’t we have gotten a shot of her escaping the Supremacy in tears? Or getting a comforting hug from Chewie on the Falcon before heading down to kick butt on Crait?

@nickandnora

That’s where my thinking is NOW (and I actually said several times leading up to TLJ that Reylo would probably be the “shock” we were in for) but after seeing the stark way Rey changes from very emotional scene, to enjoying herself on the Falcon, it had me worried that she’d “washed that man outta her hair,” lol. They could have softened the blow a bit, IMO. Now they’re going to tease “is it or isn’t it” in regards to the romance so “Reylo” still kind of is the surprise that’s coming in a way.


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Post by Saracene on Mon 15 Jan 2018, 9:16 pm

I kinda think that TLJ reimagines Rey in a way that I don't know if the series wants to truly grapple with. It's one thing to wait for your parents to return, but to actually bury the truth about them, that they sold you for drinking money? That can't be chalked down to some admirable optimism and hopefulness, that's pretty damn dark. I just don't know if the series really want to embrace this aspect of Rey and truly acknowledge that her sunny cheerful exterior - the same thing that makes her a Role Model for Little Girls - is a mask in many ways. It's not something I can remember anyone involved with the movies ever acknowledging.
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Post by MyOnlyHope on Mon 15 Jan 2018, 9:19 pm

@Cowgirlsamurai wrote:
@whisperingwillow wrote:
@Cowgirlsamurai wrote:@Saracene

Yes. There was a lot of, what I felt was unnecessary build up to the “nobodies” reveal. That’s what I mean by Rian trolling the fans. “You want to know who her parents are? Really? She does too! Oh what? Kylo knows? The magic mirror’s going to show her? Nope! Kylo saw them in his vision. Guess what? She knew they were randoms all along, and that info didn’t matter!”
@Cowgirlsamurai

The problem with that is he wrote the story before TFA came out. Maybe he had some idea that the parents would be an issue (and maybe LF was fine with that because it kept somethings hidden) but I don't think he went out with the purpose of trolling fans because he had already completed the script. The problem is people got so invested in who her parents were that they missed the fact that the question of Rey's parents had already been answered (they didn't matter).
@whisperingwillow

I think he predicted what people were going to expect and wanted to do the opposite of that and it came off as fan trolling. It’s genius in a way. Luke? Not Rey’s dad and not a Jedi anymore. Snoke? Gone. Reylo? It’d never work out, but here was a taste. That’s just how I felt after one viewing...
@Cowgirlsamurai
I'm sorry you felt that way at first, but I hope you and others see now that TLJ is the darker middle chapter and all that. You could make the same case against Empire. Luke? Regresses as a character, handless, has no answers, can't be a Jedi anymore because he abandoned his training. Like the movie literally tells you that. Yoda and Obi-Wan? Unhelpful and have possibly given up on Luke. It's all cool tho because there is another. Luke doesn't matter. *shrug* Hanleia? Nope! Rip in carbonite, but at least you got a taste. Sorry about the nice Luke/Leia embrace at the end there.

As the middle act in a three act story, we don't get resolutions. Not providing resolutions isn't fan trolling. It's the point of a middle chapter.


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Post by snufkin on Mon 15 Jan 2018, 9:20 pm

@FrolickingFizzgig "They are both characters who were ruled by childhood trauma and handled it in different ways, but Rey couldn't rot away in the darkness of her trauma with him." - that was my takeaway at the end of movie. And it's the film critic Priscilla Page's comment, that it was a story about two adult survivors of childhood trauma, how that connects the two of them, and the different ways they're coping with it.
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Post by FrolickingFizzgig on Mon 15 Jan 2018, 9:22 pm

@Saracene wrote:I kinda think that TLJ reimagines Rey in a way that I don't know if the series wants to truly grapple with. It's one thing to wait for your parents to return, but to actually bury the truth about them, that they sold you for drinking money? That can't be chalked down to some admirable optimism and hopefulness, that's pretty damn dark. I just don't know if the series really want to embrace this aspect of Rey and truly acknowledge that her sunny cheerful exterior - the same thing that makes her a Role Model for Little Girls - is a mask in many ways. It's not something I can remember anyone involved with the movies ever acknowledging.
@Saracene
It's like the "Ben as a groomed and abused child" undertones in the Kylo and Snoke dynamic. The movie can't really acknowledge it but when you think about the way Snoke interacts with Rey (touching her face, bringing her close to him, playing with her), his simultaneous goading and praise of Kylo's "mighty blood" and his creepy bathrobe and slippers... just ewww.

I like thinking about this stuff whether production remembers acknowledge it or not. Rey and Kylo's backgrounds are horrifically dark and while the movies may always tiptoe around certain things, the interpretations are always there when you get down to it.


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Post by Cowgirlsamurai on Mon 15 Jan 2018, 9:30 pm

@MyOnlyHope wrote:
@Cowgirlsamurai wrote:
@whisperingwillow wrote:
@Cowgirlsamurai wrote:@Saracene

Yes. There was a lot of, what I felt was unnecessary build up to the “nobodies” reveal. That’s what I mean by Rian trolling the fans. “You want to know who her parents are? Really? She does too! Oh what? Kylo knows? The magic mirror’s going to show her? Nope! Kylo saw them in his vision. Guess what? She knew they were randoms all along, and that info didn’t matter!”
@Cowgirlsamurai

The problem with that is he wrote the story before TFA came out. Maybe he had some idea that the parents would be an issue (and maybe LF was fine with that because it kept somethings hidden) but I don't think he went out with the purpose of trolling fans because he had already completed the script. The problem is people got so invested in who her parents were that they missed the fact that the question of Rey's parents had already been answered (they didn't matter).
@whisperingwillow

I think he predicted what people were going to expect and wanted to do the opposite of that and it came off as fan trolling. It’s genius in a way. Luke? Not Rey’s dad and not a Jedi anymore. Snoke? Gone. Reylo? It’d never work out, but here was a taste. That’s just how I felt after one viewing...
@Cowgirlsamurai
I'm sorry you felt that way at first, but I hope you see now that TLJ is the darker middle chapter and all that. You could make the same case against Empire. Luke? Regresses as a character, handless, has no answers, can't be a Jedi anymore because he abandoned his training. Yoda and Obi-Wan? Unhelpful and have possibly given up on Luke. It's all cool tho because there is another. Luke doesn't matter. *shrug* Hanleia? Nope! Rip in carbonite, but at least you got a taste. Sorry about the nice Luke/Leia embrace at the end there.

As the middle act in a three act story, we don't get resolutions. Not providing resolutions isn't fan trolling. It's the point of a middle chapter.
@MyOnlyHope

I didn’t say that it was.

Ugh, I’m tired of trying to explain myself. I was expressing my feelings after ONE viewing. I’ve seen it several more times now and I get where Rian was going with all of this, but some of the GA does not. I think an additional scene showing Rey’s emotional fallout after the throne room scene would’ve been helpful for people who only see the movie once and/or don’t analyze it the way we might to understand that Rey and Kylo’s dynamic isn’t over. I know it’s the darker, middle chapter, and that Rian wrote the script before TFA came out so he wasn’t “technically” trolling fan theories.

Good night!
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Post by MyOnlyHope on Mon 15 Jan 2018, 9:45 pm

@Cowgirlsamurai wrote:
@MyOnlyHope wrote:
@Cowgirlsamurai wrote:
@whisperingwillow wrote:
@Cowgirlsamurai wrote:@Saracene

Yes. There was a lot of, what I felt was unnecessary build up to the “nobodies” reveal. That’s what I mean by Rian trolling the fans. “You want to know who her parents are? Really? She does too! Oh what? Kylo knows? The magic mirror’s going to show her? Nope! Kylo saw them in his vision. Guess what? She knew they were randoms all along, and that info didn’t matter!”
@Cowgirlsamurai

The problem with that is he wrote the story before TFA came out. Maybe he had some idea that the parents would be an issue (and maybe LF was fine with that because it kept somethings hidden) but I don't think he went out with the purpose of trolling fans because he had already completed the script. The problem is people got so invested in who her parents were that they missed the fact that the question of Rey's parents had already been answered (they didn't matter).
@whisperingwillow

I think he predicted what people were going to expect and wanted to do the opposite of that and it came off as fan trolling. It’s genius in a way. Luke? Not Rey’s dad and not a Jedi anymore. Snoke? Gone. Reylo? It’d never work out, but here was a taste. That’s just how I felt after one viewing...
@Cowgirlsamurai
I'm sorry you felt that way at first, but I hope you see now that TLJ is the darker middle chapter and all that. You could make the same case against Empire. Luke? Regresses as a character, handless, has no answers, can't be a Jedi anymore because he abandoned his training. Yoda and Obi-Wan? Unhelpful and have possibly given up on Luke. It's all cool tho because there is another. Luke doesn't matter. *shrug* Hanleia? Nope! Rip in carbonite, but at least you got a taste. Sorry about the nice Luke/Leia embrace at the end there.

As the middle act in a three act story, we don't get resolutions. Not providing resolutions isn't fan trolling. It's the point of a middle chapter.
@MyOnlyHope

I didn’t say that it was.

Ugh, I’m tired of trying to explain myself. I was expressing my feelings after ONE viewing. I’ve seen it several more times now and I get where Rian was going with all of this, but some of the GA does not. I think an additional scene showing Rey’s emotional fallout after the throne room scene would’ve been helpful for people who only see the movie once and/or don’t analyze it the way we might to understand that Rey and Kylo’s dynamic isn’t over. I know it’s the darker, middle chapter, and that Rian wrote the script before TFA came out so he wasn’t “technically” trolling fan theories.

Good night!
@Cowgirlsamurai
Sorry, I think I was just a little annoyed because it felt like I was reading the Salt thread for a second. I like that most threads tend to stay so positive around here.

As for convincing fanboys or uninformed GA members of something, it just really... doesn't matter. All one should really need to "get" is that there's another movie left to "get" that Rey and Kylo's journey isn't over. It's not our job to teach people how to count to three.
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Post by Saracene on Mon 15 Jan 2018, 10:12 pm

@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:It's like the "Ben as a groomed and abused child" undertones in the Kylo and Snoke dynamic. The movie can't really acknowledge it but when you think about the way Snoke interacts with Rey (touching her face, bringing her close to him, playing with her), his simultaneous goading and praise of Kylo's "mighty blood" and his creepy bathrobe and slippers... just ewww.

I like thinking about this stuff whether production remembers acknowledge it or not. Rey and Kylo's backgrounds are horrifically dark and while the movies may always tiptoe around certain things, the interpretations are always there when you get down to it.
@FrolickingFizzgig

I still think there's a difference. There are some very sinister undertones in the Kylo and Snoke's dynamic yes, but no actual information. The movies don't say anything about when and how Snoke corrupted Ben Solo, just that he corrupted him. But Rey's abandonment by her no-good parents is not about undertones, we're explicitly *told* that information in the film.
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Post by FrolickingFizzgig on Mon 15 Jan 2018, 10:31 pm

@Saracene wrote:
@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:It's like the "Ben as a groomed and abused child" undertones in the Kylo and Snoke dynamic. The movie can't really acknowledge it but when you think about the way Snoke interacts with Rey (touching her face, bringing her close to him, playing with her), his simultaneous goading and praise of Kylo's "mighty blood" and his creepy bathrobe and slippers... just ewww.

I like thinking about this stuff whether production remembers acknowledge it or not. Rey and Kylo's backgrounds are horrifically dark and while the movies may always tiptoe around certain things, the interpretations are always there when you get down to it.
@FrolickingFizzgig

I still think there's a difference. There are some very sinister undertones in the Kylo and Snoke's dynamic yes, but no actual information. The movies don't say anything about when and how Snoke corrupted Ben Solo, just that he corrupted him. But Rey's abandonment by her no-good parents is not about undertones, we're explicitly *told* that information in the film.
@Saracene
Yeah, I definitely see where you're coming from, but I'm just not really bothered by the fact that they'll probably never dig that deep into Rey. While it's very tragic that she lied to herself for 14 years I would never expect Star Wars to spend too much time exploring it. It's about suspension of disbelief for me, something I have to exercise a f*** ton of with Star Wars. I mean, we're talking about a franchise that previously featured the adoptive parents Luke spent 19 years with getting torched to laughably minimal reaction from their adoptive son. Luke's big emotional reaction in ANH is all about Obi-Wan's death because that was the relationship that mattered to the audience/story. Same goes for Rey's reaction to Ben going the wrong way in the throne room.

We got enough for me. Her whole identity journey in the cave and subsequent conversation with Kylo is very touching.

And as for Rey's characterization at the end of TLJ... I honestly think Rian didn't know what to do with her because he had to keep her separated from Kylo. His solution was to stick her in the Falcon and have her look for the Resistance on Crait, anything to keep her away from the main battlefield. We still get to see her reaction to Kylo at the end and her sad expression as she holds the lightsaber, and those are the scenes that stay with you, not the blink-and-you'll-miss-it shot of her shooting the Falcon's guns for the first time.
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Post by Saracene on Mon 15 Jan 2018, 11:03 pm

I know I sound very critical of Rey's characterisation, but I did think that the uniquely feminine part of her journey/growing up was wonderfully done, with the sensitivity you never really see in a big blockbuster movie.

I agree that Rey had to be kept away from the big final battle, but there's no reason why there couldn't be some kind of bridging scene where Rey deals with the emotional aftermath of the throne room, and decides to pick herself up and help the Resistance or something. Instead it keeps her at arm's length. It's just an utterly bizarre way to treat your main character.
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