The Last Jedi: Professional Reviews, Articles

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Re: The Last Jedi: Professional Reviews, Articles

Post by Lily Snape on Sun 11 Mar 2018, 12:43 am

@Dar-ren19 wrote:
@snufkin wrote:This is a great review because it hits on several critical points, both about the film itself and the ST:

1. The story pivots around the relationship (Platonic Force Buddies? Enemies But It's Complicated)  Rey and Ben/Kylo
2. Luke is a secondary/supporting character who is there to be part of Rey and Ben/Kylo's story. Regardless of fans who insist that the rules and logic of the fictional universe mean that Rey "should" be a legacy child or that the central character/themes that the ST will help resolve and play out in symmetry is Luke's story. He has an arc and backstory in this film. But the OT was his trilogy and how the ST resolves its story as well as the overall 3 trilogies, it is not about centering his character.
3. Having Rey be a nobody, "frees up possibilities and expands boundaries" both for the franchise and future installments. But that doesn't really mean the next logical arc in IX is "he's going to die and resolve the family arc." It's the fandom conspiracy theory du jour which replaced "Rey is Luke's daughter." It's merely the pivot of an entrenched fandom/mindset (part of the meta-themes discussed in the reviewed) that everything has to be about Luke because of expectations about history/legacy. Which TLJ makes a point of dismantling.

I Don't Know What The Hell People Are Complaining About. 'The Last Jedi' Restored My Faith in 'Star Wars'

In so many ways The Last Jedi is, of course, a meta-commentary on its own existence. On its values and goals, as well as those of the series as a whole. Kylo Ren hits it on the nose perhaps a tad too much when he says, ‘Let the past die. Kill it if you have to,’ but that is exactly what this series needs to do if it is to be saved from a fate similar to that of a nostalgic travelling sideshow, wheeling out old surnames and legacies in exchange for the cheap buzz of recognition. We need new stories in this saga, and one of the best parts of The Last Jedi—which was also one of the most hated by some (but more on that later)—was the revelation of Rey’s parents. What a gloriously perfect touch, to have our main hero’s lineage be that of dust, instead of starlight.

It is powerful (and scary, sure) from a storytelling standpoint, because it frees up possibilities and expands boundaries; it is powerful from a philosophical point of view, because it’s announcing to us that this movie has decided to tell a story in which literally anyone can be a hero, never mind what special family they happened to be born into or not; and it is powerful on a small, character scale, because the moment between Kylo and Rey feels so true to them as people—both are clinging to the past and desperately trying to escape it at the same time, and in this moment their nuanced, layered bond resonates the loudest and foreshadows the repercussions it will have for the galaxy. Rey and Kylo, already quite good characters in The Force Awakens, here become great. In isolation they are both interesting and layered, but it’s in the space between them, in the interplay of darkness and light within the two, where everything sings. Rian Johnson understands: Write great characters like this, have them clash, and the rest almost takes care of itself.

Rey and Kylo’s bond (and the fantastic space-Skype innovation facilitating it) is what everything pivots around in The Last Jedi. And that’s a great move. Because going in you would expect the focus to be on Luke, and Leia, and the shadow of their father. But that would be looking backwards. The movie knows where to train its eye. Luckily it also knows how to balance things, and the two Skywalkers are anything but ignored. In fact its treatment of the two Skywalkers is another of the movie’s strongest suits (though, again, something that has attracted much internet ire). The multiple layers added to Luke’s personality are especially praiseworthy. Here is a character who was once basically a cipher, a blank slate. He was our hero many decades ago, sure, but let’s be honest: He wasn’t exactly the most interesting of personalities. Now, wracked with guilt in a self-imposed exile both from humanity and The Force, he lives out his days, awaiting death. He tried to do good, and he failed. Perhaps, he thinks, it is best to leave things to develop as they will. He has no interest in getting involved anymore. That is, until Rey comes along. Little unknown Rey, who comes from nowhere and nothing, and yet who carries inside of her a power and a conviction that terrifies Luke and forces him to reckon with his past and with his mistakes. Initially turning away from the challenge and abandoning Rey and the galaxy to their fates, he finds the strength to rise up, to assist the struggling Resistance, and to give hope to the galaxy before finally finding peace within himself.

Thanks @snufkin. An excellent read. I can't praise the bolded enough. The writer gets it. He gets good writing.
@Dar-ren19

I completely agree—especially about Luke. I’ve never found the character as interesting in any of the other films, in which he was The Hero. And not much else. Great for people to project themselves onto, which might explain a lot about the fandom, but not much there as a character in the OT. In the ST, he’s felt his own temptation to the Darker part of his nature, and it has split his spirit to the bone, to paraphrase Snoke. For me, Luke finally became an interesting character in this film—much like (also to the dismay of some of the fandom) Han finally fully became a grownup in TFA, sacrificing his own life to try to save his son.

I’m sorry we don’t get to see the arc Leia would have had in IX. She burst onto the scene in IV as such a self-assured, mature figure despite her youth. She knew who she was and what she stood for and how to go about achieving her goals. I think her Achilles heel would have been the Darth Vader legacy that she spent all those years trying to hide—and trying to hide the darkness in her son.
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Re: The Last Jedi: Professional Reviews, Articles

Post by Dar-ren19 on Sun 11 Mar 2018, 1:21 am

@snufkin
@Lily Snape
yes, it's really sad we won't see Leia concluding her character arc. I'm really saddened by that. Even more so because Ben/Kylo would have been a part of it and brought it to full flower because, more than anything else, we needed to see this powerful, self-sufficient character (Leia) face her ultimate test as a woman and mother.
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Re: The Last Jedi: Professional Reviews, Articles

Post by snufkin on Sun 11 Mar 2018, 1:26 am

@Dar-ren19 Agreed. As much as I'm curious about the whole potential underlying theme of "he has too much of his father in him" with Kasdan's involvement, it also really bothers me that we won't finally get to have an actual mother-child relationship where the mother is alive instead of being dead under tragic circumstances to serve the protagonist's tragic backstory. I'm pretty sure that's part of what irritates me about the Luke fan worship, everything in the narrative is discussed in terms of how it examines or supports his character arc, which he had an entire trilogy and 40 years worth of fan worship already. Step aside and give the mike to Leia, who's done even more with far less hagiography.
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Re: The Last Jedi: Professional Reviews, Articles

Post by Dar-ren19 on Sun 11 Mar 2018, 1:29 am

@snufkin wrote:@Dar-ren19 Agreed. As much as I'm curious about the whole potential underlying theme of "he has too much of his father in him" with Kasdan's involvement, it also really bothers me that we won't finally get to have an actual mother-child relationship where the mother is alive instead of being dead under tragic circumstances to serve the protagonist's tragic backstory. I'm pretty sure that's part of what irritates me about the Luke fan worship, everything in the narrative is discussed in terms of how it examines or supports his character arc, which he had an entire trilogy and 40 years worth of fan worship already. Step aside and give the mike to Leia, who's done even more with far less hagiography.
@snufkin

I cannot convey how much I agree with you on this.
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Re: The Last Jedi: Professional Reviews, Articles

Post by snufkin on Sun 11 Mar 2018, 1:35 am

@Dar-ren19 I think it's at the heart of some of the anger for fans who want her to the legacy child or insisting that JJ can still make her somebody important. One of the many sh*tty things SW has done when it comes to including/depicting female characters is showing the ins and outs of mother-child relationships. Wanting Rey to be Leia's daughter (or assuming it after the initial photos/press release about TFA going into production) was in wanting them to finally show that type of overdue story, mothers and their children. I mean, I love Kasdan as a writer and love hearing him talk about the stories and characters he comes up with, because he's written so many iconic and interesting characters, both male and female. But the heart of the parent-child relationship and theme in the ST (and likely Solo will have connections) is about Han and Ben.
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Re: The Last Jedi: Professional Reviews, Articles

Post by Night Huntress on Sun 11 Mar 2018, 1:39 am

@Dar-ren19 wrote:
@snufkin wrote:@Dar-ren19 Agreed. As much as I'm curious about the whole potential underlying theme of "he has too much of his father in him" with Kasdan's involvement, it also really bothers me that we won't finally get to have an actual mother-child relationship where the mother is alive instead of being dead under tragic circumstances to serve the protagonist's tragic backstory. I'm pretty sure that's part of what irritates me about the Luke fan worship, everything in the narrative is discussed in terms of how it examines or supports his character arc, which he had an entire trilogy and 40 years worth of fan worship already. Step aside and give the mike to Leia, who's done even more with far less hagiography.
@snufkin

I cannot convey how much I agree with you on this.
@Dar-ren19

Yeah, me too. All that speak about Ben having too much of his father in him...I don't really see it??? scratch
Yes, he has his father's heart but otherwise??? He is nothing like Han in my opinion and it annoys me that they always talk about his father and grandfather but never about his MOTHER! Yeah, I know she would've played a big part in IX but anyway!
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Re: The Last Jedi: Professional Reviews, Articles

Post by Saracene on Sun 11 Mar 2018, 3:19 am

I definitely agree with the article above on the way TLJ made Luke interesting. I don't get the claim though that Rey having nobodies for parents expands boundaries; I mean sure, telling a family story through the eyes of an outsider is a different approach we haven't seen before, but this is still very much Skywalker family saga (unless the writer doesn't include Kylo into the Skywalker clan and only accepts Leia and Luke). TLJ I think made it painfully obvious by shoving Rey out of the story after the throne room and transferring the emotional weight to the Skywalker family drama and Luke's redemptive conclusion.

I'm sad that we won't get Leia in Episode IX, but to be honest I don't think they'd take any chances with her the way they did with Luke and Han. Luke and Han's stories in the ST are interesting because they were both broken by what happened with Ben, but Leia is just a strong capable coper who gets along with the job. Which is admirable, sure, but not as dramatically interesting as the characters who give up and walk away.
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Re: The Last Jedi: Professional Reviews, Articles

Post by californiagirl on Sun 11 Mar 2018, 3:34 pm

@Saracene wrote:I definitely agree with the article above on the way TLJ made Luke interesting. I don't get the claim though that Rey having nobodies for parents expands boundaries; I mean sure, telling a family story through the eyes of an outsider is a different approach we haven't seen before, but this is still very much Skywalker family saga (unless the writer doesn't include Kylo into the Skywalker clan and only accepts Leia and Luke). TLJ I think made it painfully obvious by shoving Rey out of the story after the throne room and transferring the emotional weight to the Skywalker family drama and Luke's redemptive conclusion.

I'm sad that we won't get Leia in Episode IX, but to be honest I don't think they'd take any chances with her the way they did with Luke and Han. Luke and Han's stories in the ST are interesting because they were both broken by what happened with Ben, but Leia is just a strong capable coper who gets along with the job. Which is admirable, sure, but not as dramatically interesting as the characters who give up and walk away.
@Saracene

Given that she was said to have had a large role in IX originally, it reminds me of how Han had a major role in TFA and Luke had a major role in TLJ. I'm not sure how that would work if they didn't take chances with Leia. We see that she and Kylo hadn't come to terms with each other yet, and I got the strong impression they had set her up to have their arcs intermingle, as Kylo's did with Han's and Luke's. They all had to face him again in the end, and so would Leia. I suspect there would be more of an immediate effect, given how we know/have seen that Kylo is closer to his mother than the other two. Plus the accumulating guilt/depression could come to a peak.

I can see how Leia would have been pivotal in IX, and I'm still holding out hope that they can keep her alive further into the movie than most of the audience expects, just writing her off screen. It would be awkward, but handling Leia with Carrie gone is going to be awkward no matter what LF/JJ does.
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Re: The Last Jedi: Professional Reviews, Articles

Post by ISeeAnIsland on Sun 11 Mar 2018, 3:54 pm

@californiagirl wrote:
@Saracene wrote:I definitely agree with the article above on the way TLJ made Luke interesting. I don't get the claim though that Rey having nobodies for parents expands boundaries; I mean sure, telling a family story through the eyes of an outsider is a different approach we haven't seen before, but this is still very much Skywalker family saga (unless the writer doesn't include Kylo into the Skywalker clan and only accepts Leia and Luke). TLJ I think made it painfully obvious by shoving Rey out of the story after the throne room and transferring the emotional weight to the Skywalker family drama and Luke's redemptive conclusion.

I'm sad that we won't get Leia in Episode IX, but to be honest I don't think they'd take any chances with her the way they did with Luke and Han. Luke and Han's stories in the ST are interesting because they were both broken by what happened with Ben, but Leia is just a strong capable coper who gets along with the job. Which is admirable, sure, but not as dramatically interesting as the characters who give up and walk away.
@Saracene

Given that she was said to have had a large role in IX originally, it reminds me of how Han had a major role in TFA and Luke had a major role in TLJ. I'm not sure how that would work if they didn't take chances with Leia. We see that she and Kylo hadn't come to terms with each other yet, and I got the strong impression they had set her up to have their arcs intermingle, as Kylo's did with Han's and Luke's. They all had to face him again in the end, and so would Leia. I suspect there would be more of an immediate effect, given how we know/have seen that Kylo is closer to his mother than the other two. Plus the accumulating guilt/depression could come to a peak.

I can see how Leia would have been pivotal in IX, and I'm still holding out hope that they can keep her alive further into the movie than most of the audience expects, just writing her off screen. It would be awkward, but handling Leia with Carrie gone is going to be awkward no matter what LF/JJ does.
@californiagirl

They have a really easy way to keep her alive offscreen if they choose... Just have her visiting her surviving colleagues from her political days to try to drum up support for the Resistance. It fits perfectly well with what was set up in TLJ. Who knows what JJ will do, though.
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Re: The Last Jedi: Professional Reviews, Articles

Post by snufkin on Sun 11 Mar 2018, 5:21 pm

I really wanted something between the two of them like Postcards from the Edge because you know Carrie would've written their scene together



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Re: The Last Jedi: Professional Reviews, Articles

Post by twilekempire on Mon 12 Mar 2018, 4:47 pm

@Saracene wrote:I definitely agree with the article above on the way TLJ made Luke interesting. I don't get the claim though that Rey having nobodies for parents expands boundaries; I mean sure, telling a family story through the eyes of an outsider is a different approach we haven't seen before, but this is still very much Skywalker family saga (unless the writer doesn't include Kylo into the Skywalker clan and only accepts Leia and Luke). TLJ I think made it painfully obvious by shoving Rey out of the story after the throne room and transferring the emotional weight to the Skywalker family drama and Luke's redemptive conclusion.

I'm sad that we won't get Leia in Episode IX, but to be honest I don't think they'd take any chances with her the way they did with Luke and Han. Luke and Han's stories in the ST are interesting because they were both broken by what happened with Ben, but Leia is just a strong capable coper who gets along with the job. Which is admirable, sure, but not as dramatically interesting as the characters who give up and walk away.
@Saracene

I think Leia just hides her damage better. As a politician, she's great at fronting and concealing. In the novelization Snoke, in his pov, thinks about how he manipulated her guilt which I think relates to her fear of her family's darkness and incapacity to save her son from it/control/conceal it. I think IX could have been powerful if it were about her having to confront those long buried fears - the Anakin Skywalker in herself and in her son. The first two showed us that Ben has something of his father in him but IX could have shown us how Ben also takes after his mother and that has always terrified her. IMO Ben doesn't have her political acumen, but there's a capacity for darkness in her that's closer to him than Han.

Scratch the surface, and Han is a total sweetheart. Leia, otoh, while a deeply moral woman and she puts limits on herself, is a far grittier person, far more capable of going for the throat. She controls her own darkness, but she has way more of it.

And, in a sense, Ben is like a terrifying mirror for that part of her. All of that Skywalker power and darkness, completely unconcealed and uncontrolled, just wreaking havoc. Her facing that and loving her son and finding catharsis over these issues and her own buried trauma/fear re: her bio dad could have been amazing, I think.
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Re: The Last Jedi: Professional Reviews, Articles

Post by MrsWindu on Wed 14 Mar 2018, 8:34 am

I'm now slightly better at filtering articles and who's opinions are being showcased. In this one it starts with the practical special effects supervisor and whoever wrote the piece said what he wanted to say at the end which again is just an opinion and doesn't mean JJ will necessarily go there. We just don't know at this stage.

He worked closely with both Abrams and Johnson, getting a clear distinction between how the two operated:

“Both J.J. and Rian had their own style on each film. J.J. is a livewire of a guy – million miles an hour, you know? All ideas stream out of his head every minute of the day. Spontaneity is a big part of working with J.J. I think that reflected in Force Awakens. Rian is a slightly different character. He is very quiet, he’s a very sweet man. He’s methodical, he wrote the script and we pretty much shot the script, which is pretty uncommon these days. So very different styles and I think that reflected in the separate films. But both great to work with – amazing times.”

https://screenrant.com/star-wars-directors-jj-abrams-rian-johnson-comparison/
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Re: The Last Jedi: Professional Reviews, Articles

Post by twilekempire on Tue 20 Mar 2018, 4:24 pm

The Mary Sue has recently done two negative articles on TLJ - one blaming Reylo for Finn's story not getting adequate screen time and the other calling TLJ an "inclusive illusion" and going through the standard list of facile readings of Rey's story in TLJ, mostly focused on the idea that she was just there to serve Luke and Kylo's stories. Having become a shipper and big fan of TLJ, I've really become sick of that site and noticed how facile their "more progressive than thou" points are in other cases too.

Admittedly, I think the article on Finn is better written and contains some good critiques of how Finn's story was underserved in TLJ. I wanted to see more for him. But then the writer feels compelled to lay blame at the feet of Reylo instead of, say, Poe for being a major time suck in that movie. The "Inclusive Illusion" one is just garbage, though.

Knowledge of US politics is not actually sufficient for analyzing all genre stories. It works when a story is deliberately intended to be a metaphorical or direct reference to US politics--as often happens with Marvel movies, frex--but SW is doing mythology/fairy tales and family drama stories, not political metaphors. And that is a legitimate form of storytelling.

I wish professional reviewers would do a little research and broaden their horizons. I've really enjoyed doing that, since I haven't really been a fan of mythology and fairy tales before this. Realizing those gaps in my own knowledge, I've had a lot of fun getting some of the books Reylo meta pieces cite as sources and reading up on this stuff. I think it's made me a smarter viewer; I'm seeing things in stories I wouldn't have been able to before. Like thinking of Michael Burnham on Star Trek Discovery in light of the "heroine's journey."

People who write articles professionally should be telling me something new or digging deeper than I can, not regurgitating the same old hot takes. And as far as SW is concerned, Reylo shippers are the only people telling me something new. Even if I didn't ship it, I think I'd really appreciate that.
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Re: The Last Jedi: Professional Reviews, Articles

Post by californiagirl on Tue 20 Mar 2018, 4:43 pm

@twilekempire wrote:The Mary Sue has recently done two negative articles on TLJ - one blaming Reylo for Finn's story not getting adequate screen time and the other calling TLJ an "inclusive illusion" and going through the standard list of facile readings of Rey's story in TLJ, mostly focused on the idea that she was just there to serve Luke and Kylo's stories. Having become a shipper and big fan of TLJ, I've really become sick of that site and noticed how facile their "more progressive than thou" points are in other cases too.

Admittedly, I think the article on Finn is better written and contains some good critiques of how Finn's story was underserved in TLJ. I wanted to see more for him. But then the writer feels compelled to lay blame at the feet of Reylo instead of, say, Poe for being a major time suck in that movie. The "Inclusive Illusion" one is just garbage, though.

Knowledge of US politics is not actually sufficient for analyzing all genre stories. It works when a story is deliberately intended to be a metaphorical or direct reference to US politics--as often happens with Marvel movies, frex--but SW is doing mythology/fairy tales and family drama stories, not political metaphors. And that is a legitimate form of storytelling.

I wish professional reviewers would do a little research and broaden their horizons. I've really enjoyed doing that, since I haven't really been a fan of mythology and fairy tales before this. Realizing those gaps in my own knowledge, I've had a lot of fun getting some of the books Reylo meta pieces cite as sources and reading up on this stuff. I think it's made me a smarter viewer; I'm seeing things in stories I wouldn't have been able to before. Like thinking of Michael Burnham on Star Trek Discovery in light of the "heroine's journey."

People who write articles professionally should be telling me something new or digging deeper than I can, not regurgitating the same old hot takes. And as far as SW is concerned, Reylo shippers are the only people telling me something new. Even if I didn't ship it, I think I'd really appreciate that.
@twilekempire

I read the one about how Rey's arc was sacrificed so the male characters could have their stories supported instead back in December and it really irritated me. Among the many fairly basic things audiences and even some critics seem to have trouble understanding in TLJ is Rey's arc/story/character development. In addition to Reylo/Force Bond, there is the whole element of not letting one's past, or the generations before you, control your life and sense of purpose. It's not about Luke the legendary demigod Jedi master, it's not about Rey's parents being special, it's about Rey herself being special. It's actually very empowering, but some of the "woke feminist" articles actually just take away female characters' agency and make them less awesome, which is the opposite of what they're supposed to do.

Agree about the Reylo fans having a greater understanding of SW. No wonder they were right about so many things in TLJ (outside of fake spoilers the entire fandom fell for) and 95% of everyone else was so wrong.
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Re: The Last Jedi: Professional Reviews, Articles

Post by Starliteprism on Tue 20 Mar 2018, 4:45 pm

@Dar-ren19 wrote:@snufkin
@Lily Snape
yes, it's really sad we won't see Leia concluding her character arc. I'm really saddened by that. Even more so because Ben/Kylo would have been a part of it and brought it to full flower because, more than anything else, we needed to see this powerful, self-sufficient character (Leia) face her ultimate test as a woman and mother.
@Dar-ren19

Not that it was entirely purposeful, but it's almost kind of Disney-esque, the mother or parents not being in the picture for the main character/s...
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Re: The Last Jedi: Professional Reviews, Articles

Post by Saracene on Tue 20 Mar 2018, 6:37 pm

The problem with Finn's arc in TLJ has nothing to do with another characters taking up screen time; the problem is that it's a dull watered-down arc with no real tension, challenge, temptation etc. Once Finn is onboard with the codebreaker plan, there are no bumps in his character journey, he just has to sit back and listen to Rose.
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Re: The Last Jedi: Professional Reviews, Articles

Post by MrsWindu on Tue 20 Mar 2018, 6:39 pm

I have a real soft spot for Frank Oz and it was a delight to see Yoda FG in TLJ. This is a really great interview with Oz including how he created a backstory for Yoda. And if there’s ever a spin off Yoda he couldn’t go down the puppet route again

http://m.uk.ign.com/articles/2018/03/20/star-wars-frank-oz-explains-how-yoda-wound-up-in-the-last-jedi

We spoke to Oz recently about all things Yoda -- past, present and potential future. Because, as you know, always in motion is the future...

Returning to That Galaxy Far, Far Away

“Several years ago I had lunch with Rian [Johnson], and Rian asked if I could do Yoda in the next Star Wars, and I said ‘Sure,’ because I thought it was just CGI. And then [Lucasfilm president] Kathy Kennedy, who I’ve known for quite a while, who’s fantastic, she called me about it and then I realized that it wasn’t CGI, that it was actually the character,” Frank Oz told IGN.

“I said, ‘Kathy, do you have any idea what’s going to happen here? This is tough!’ and she said ‘That’s okay, let’s do it.’ So, you know, the workshop made him and everything, and did a fantastic job,” Oz continued.

But keeping his appearance a secret was tricky. Fortunately, Oz had a cover story.

“I was told that that was going to be the surprise of the movie, so when I went to Pinewood I had to be a secret there. Although if people saw me… people DID see me, but if they questioned me it would have been fine because I shot Little Shop of Horrors ... there, and could have just said I had some meetings for movies.”

“But the idea was to keep me off the credits,” Oz added. “I was asked, ‘Could you have your name off the poster?’ and I said ‘Sure.’ So the idea was that that would be the surprise.”

But it was not always so easy, and creating a character like Yoda for Empire took preparation. According to Oz, “Yoda was fully formed as a written character and he was fully formed as a designed character, but the internal part of him was not created. He was a wise person, and a powerful person, but that’s kind of all that was given to me. So I had to create a whole backstory for him inside me to make him come alive and be transcendent.”

It’s a detailed backstory that Oz still has written down, but if you wanted to read it, you’d have to rummage through his closets: “Yeah, I have it somewhere, a couple pages in my storage. Just talking about when [Yoda] was younger, even the food he ate."

But what of Yoda’s future? Ever since Disney took over the Star Wars franchise, rumors have been circulating about a potential spin-off featuring Yoda as the main character, but Oz is quick to distance himself from those reports.

“You know what, I keep hearing that and I know nothing about it,” Oz quickly explains.

But there’s one thing Oz knows for certain: If Lucasfilm ever makes a movie with Yoda as the protagonist, “It won’t be a puppet.”

“Believe me. That’s way too difficult for me. I rehearse a long time just to do one line of dialogue [as a puppeteer],” Oz explains. “It would have to be [CGI], yeah. It would have to be. It’s far, far too difficult because I’m doing it with three other people. So it’s four people and you can’t just wing it. You’ve got to study every single word with four people."
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Re: The Last Jedi: Professional Reviews, Articles

Post by snufkin on Tue 20 Mar 2018, 6:49 pm

@MrsWindu Aw he's the best! He was born in England b/c he and his families were refugees during the war but grew up here in Northern California. He's up there with Tom Hanks and Ryan Coogler as proud Oakland natives. And I'm so stoked about his new documentary on the web about the Muppets* that sounds delightful (Rian Johnson is a backer). Jim Henson sound like he was a one of kind guy and shaped a lot of how Oz approached his work. Not coincidentally, I like TLJ Yoda the best because he feels the most muppety out of all his incarnations

*hence changing my avatar to the best ever episode of The Muppet Show.


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Re: The Last Jedi: Professional Reviews, Articles

Post by rawpowah on Tue 20 Mar 2018, 7:30 pm

@Saracene wrote:The problem with Finn's arc in TLJ has nothing to do with another characters taking up screen time; the problem is that it's a dull watered-down arc with no real tension, challenge, temptation etc. Once Finn is onboard with the codebreaker plan, there are no bumps in his character journey, he just has to sit back and listen to Rose.
@Saracene

Honestly, I felt like Finn was given that arc precisely to make room for Poe in the Resistance. If Poe had died in TFA, then Finn would have probably been the one getting lessons for Leia and rising through the Resistance ranks.
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Re: The Last Jedi: Professional Reviews, Articles

Post by Saracene on Tue 20 Mar 2018, 7:42 pm

@rawpowah wrote:
@Saracene wrote:The problem with Finn's arc in TLJ has nothing to do with another characters taking up screen time; the problem is that it's a dull watered-down arc with no real tension, challenge, temptation etc. Once Finn is onboard with the codebreaker plan, there are no bumps in his character journey, he just has to sit back and listen to Rose.
@Saracene

Honestly, I felt like Finn was given that arc precisely to make room for Poe in the Resistance. If Poe had died in TFA, then Finn would have probably been the one getting lessons for Leia and rising through the Resistance ranks.
@rawpowah

Didn't Rian say that originally he started out writing an adventure for Poe and Finn, and then decided to pair Finn with another character?

I think that a storyline involving Finn going on a quest away from the Resistance would still be there; all Poe really does is stay in one place for most of the film until Crait. If Finn did this instead, and we had no characters go elsewhere and try to break onto Snoke's ship, that's a very limiting perspective.
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Re: The Last Jedi: Professional Reviews, Articles

Post by twilekempire on Tue 20 Mar 2018, 8:01 pm

@rawpowah wrote:
@Saracene wrote:The problem with Finn's arc in TLJ has nothing to do with another characters taking up screen time; the problem is that it's a dull watered-down arc with no real tension, challenge, temptation etc. Once Finn is onboard with the codebreaker plan, there are no bumps in his character journey, he just has to sit back and listen to Rose.
@Saracene

Honestly, I felt like Finn was given that arc precisely to make room for Poe in the Resistance. If Poe had died in TFA, then Finn would have probably been the one getting lessons for Leia and rising through the Resistance ranks.
@rawpowah

I would love that. But partly that's because I just subjectively find Poe's personality annoying and have since TFA.

Putting that aside, just watching some of the deleted scenes made me wish for a Finn storyline that hinted at a Stormtrooper rebellion idea for IX - there's the scene in the elevator where he has a humorous moment with a former comrade. I'd up the pathos in that moment and then do a version of Finn standing up to Phasma and trying to get the other Stormtroopers to turn on her. And then follow that with him trying to turn Stormtroopers against the FO in IX as Hux and Kylo fight amongst each other at the top.

IMO I'd love it if TLJ set up Finn stealing underlings from the FO at the bottom of the hierarchy while Rey + Kylo's connection from TLJ means she's undercutting/stealing him away from the top of the hierarchy. The FO could believably collapse with those two forces at work. Hux would be so focused on getting rid of Kylo and replacing him that he doesn't notice the Stormtroopers are being inspired to revolt while his attention is elsewhere... Sounds like a good way to win without a lot of Resistance members; steal some of their own people for your side!

It would be a nice way for Finn to follow Rose's advice to not destroy what you hate but rather "save what you love" by saving other people kidnapped and brainwashed by the FO while Rey saves the person she loves. There could be some paralleling of the Stormtrooper "lost boys" (as Rose calls them in the TLJ novelization) and Kylo too that would reinforce a redemption arc.

I want the Reylo to dovetail thematically in some way, you know? So there's multiple kinds of love, multiple levels of cutting the FO apart with love... and we could have a reason why Finn ultimately comes around on Kylo, if he's advocating for rebel Stormtroopers who've also committed crimes under FO direction?

As it is, I have no idea how they're going to make Finn's arc in IX work based on what we got in TLJ and it makes me kind of sad.

I'm not stuck on any particular outcome! But I want Reylo and I want Finn to have a stronger story and for everything to come together well in IX. And watching the deleted scenes this was just one option that occurred to me.

I thought about it more after reading the article on TMS and feeling like - well, if anyone's material should be cut for Finn, it should be Poe. Why cut Reylo, the most widely appreciated part of the darn movie, instead of making something where Finn's story is stronger and works better with the themes they're using somehow? Both him and Rey on the big ship at the same time, trying to steal away people they care about, and failing but set up to succeed in IX.


Last edited by twilekempire on Tue 20 Mar 2018, 8:40 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Re: The Last Jedi: Professional Reviews, Articles

Post by Mila95 on Tue 20 Mar 2018, 8:20 pm

I really don't know how someone gets to the conclusion reylo is the reason for Finn having less story or screentime.reylo and Finn's storyline had nothing in common,they're just totally separate. even if Kylo and Rey didn't share scenes in TLJ Finn still wouldn't have gotten that time because it would have gone to something Rey related and there never would have been much of a chance for Finn to be around Rey while she's on the island with Luke because there's no reason for that really.Everyone got a bit less screentime because the movie had a lot of characters,imo too many.I think Finn got enough screentime tbh,he had his own plot with two characters who were mostly there to support him and help him learn his lessons,he got his own action scenes and big hero moments.So it was all there it was just done in a way that wasn't very interesting or exciting imo.Poe did take away a bit from Finn,not so much in screentime as much in that they now share the resistance hero spot and are pretty similar in a lot of ways.I really do agree as great as the actor is and despite liking the character,that Poe should have died in TFA and Finn should have been the resistance hero who raises in the ranks and becomes a leader.This way they just split that role for both of them.

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Re: The Last Jedi: Professional Reviews, Articles

Post by Dar-ren19 on Tue 20 Mar 2018, 8:25 pm

@rawpowah wrote:
@Saracene wrote:The problem with Finn's arc in TLJ has nothing to do with another characters taking up screen time; the problem is that it's a dull watered-down arc with no real tension, challenge, temptation etc. Once Finn is onboard with the codebreaker plan, there are no bumps in his character journey, he just has to sit back and listen to Rose.
@Saracene

Honestly, I felt like Finn was given that arc precisely to make room for Poe in the Resistance. If Poe had died in TFA, then Finn would have probably been the one getting lessons for Leia and rising through the Resistance ranks.
@rawpowah

Which would make story sense because, to me, Poe is like Peavy... there's no depth to him save for what we see onscreen. He has no real story. Finn, on the other hand, has the heft and the past that promises rich fruition if plumbed in IX. I like Rose, but Finn's story in TLJ wasn't eclipsed by reylo, it was overtaken by Rose's. Which is fine, but not completely okay, at least for what they may be planning for IX. He deserves to have HIS story supported by Rose, because it feeds directly into the FO/Resistance/Kylo/Rey angles.
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Re: The Last Jedi: Professional Reviews, Articles

Post by nickandnora on Tue 20 Mar 2018, 8:40 pm

@twilekempire

I agree with just about everything you said.

The thing about Poe's actual story itself in TLJ was that I found it subjectively more interesting than Finn's, but Finn is the character who needs more development and, as you say, dovetailing with Reylo's story. If this was originally meant to be a story about trios, then Rey, Kylo and Finn are the trio, and Poe wasn't supposed to figure in. The other problem is that Oscar Isaac has, for some reason that I can't quite pinpoint, not been his usual charismatic self in these films, and that drags things down (and I seriously never thought I would say that about him).

Hopefully J.J. is cautious about how he uses him (Poe) in IX. I think I'd like to see him situated as leader (as TLJ set up) but not so much have a super clearly defined *arc* if that makes sense. He can lead the Resistance, come into conflict with Rey and Finn when the plot demands the need for conflict, support them when the plot needs there to be support, etc. Like... relegate him to the role of propping up the other stories and the other character development. They need to make sure IX isn't four hours long.

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Re: The Last Jedi: Professional Reviews, Articles

Post by Saracene on Tue 20 Mar 2018, 8:50 pm

To be fair, I can see how Finn's character kinda stumped Rian, because the dramatic potential of the character got pretty much wasted back in TFA. That movie was so anxious for the audience to looooove Finn, it played him like a charming funny likeable everyman instead of a damaged, stunted person he should have been with his background.

I like Rose, but I don't know, maybe I'd have preferred a simple fun Finn/Poe buddy adventure that at least could have drawn on their chemistry and John's charm.
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