The Last Jedi: Professional Reviews, Articles

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Re: The Last Jedi: Professional Reviews, Articles

Post by guardienne on Fri 13 Apr 2018, 4:56 pm

@Dar-ren19 wrote:
@Saracene wrote:
@Dar-ren19 wrote:@Saracene I've never seen any of John Boyega's other work. What kind of an actor is he? Is he able to carry a dramatic role? If so, I don't see why JJ would sideline his "story" like that, and just make him pretty much sidekick/comic relief (as he was in TFA with some minor forays into dramatics) and pretty much Rose's sidekick in TLJ. A backstory like his -- with such buttressing capability to the main story (Rey/Kylo/FO/Hux) -- should've been on a path to fruition by now, even if via hints.
@Dar-ren19

I haven't seen John's other work either, but he got good response for his role in Detroit last year (and that couldn't have been a bag of laughs). I can't see any reason why he couldn't have carried a more dramatic role. It's more that TFA mostly cared about making Finn likeable and funny above everything else, and that cost the character in the long run. It's like, we're two movies in and Finn has shown zero concern for his fellow brainwashed stormtroopers after the opening scene in TFA where he's supposedly shocked by the death of one of them.

@Saracene

Exactly the bolded, especially the last line, which is when and how we first encounter Finn. I'll give Detroit and his earlier movie a watch, but even watching him in TFA, I can tell that he's an actor who can carry more demanding roles. I'm hoping JJ is giving some thought to Finn and his arc separate from Rose. Sure, Rose is a great character with an interesting backstory that could be explored in some ways, but NOT in IX. Whereas if they don't explore OR exploit Finn's story in IX, they'll be doing a disservice to Kylo's arc where the FO is concerned, especially if Hux becomes the main villain.
@Dar-ren19

detroit is an excellent movie by the wonderful kathryn bigelow and boyega has a small part in it, as does anthony mackie (she also cast him in the hurt locker), and he is ok. it's essentially an ensemble real life historical horror story, it's a great visceral experience, not sure boyega stands out in it tbh.
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Re: The Last Jedi: Professional Reviews, Articles

Post by Dar-ren19 on Sat 14 Apr 2018, 4:23 am

@guardienne wrote:
@Dar-ren19 wrote:
@Saracene wrote:
@Dar-ren19 wrote:@Saracene I've never seen any of John Boyega's other work. What kind of an actor is he? Is he able to carry a dramatic role? If so, I don't see why JJ would sideline his "story" like that, and just make him pretty much sidekick/comic relief (as he was in TFA with some minor forays into dramatics) and pretty much Rose's sidekick in TLJ. A backstory like his -- with such buttressing capability to the main story (Rey/Kylo/FO/Hux) -- should've been on a path to fruition by now, even if via hints.
@Dar-ren19

I haven't seen John's other work either, but he got good response for his role in Detroit last year (and that couldn't have been a bag of laughs). I can't see any reason why he couldn't have carried a more dramatic role. It's more that TFA mostly cared about making Finn likeable and funny above everything else, and that cost the character in the long run. It's like, we're two movies in and Finn has shown zero concern for his fellow brainwashed stormtroopers after the opening scene in TFA where he's supposedly shocked by the death of one of them.

@Saracene

Exactly the bolded, especially the last line, which is when and how we first encounter Finn. I'll give Detroit and his earlier movie a watch, but even watching him in TFA, I can tell that he's an actor who can carry more demanding roles. I'm hoping JJ is giving some thought to Finn and his arc separate from Rose. Sure, Rose is a great character with an interesting backstory that could be explored in some ways, but NOT in IX. Whereas if they don't explore OR exploit Finn's story in IX, they'll be doing a disservice to Kylo's arc where the FO is concerned, especially if Hux becomes the main villain.
@Dar-ren19

detroit is an excellent movie by the wonderful kathryn bigelow and boyega has a small part in it, as does anthony mackie (she also cast him in the hurt locker), and he is ok. it's essentially an ensemble real life historical horror story, it's a great visceral experience, not sure boyega stands out in it tbh.
Thanks much for the rec @guardienne. Will check it out.

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Re: The Last Jedi: Professional Reviews, Articles

Post by Riri on Mon 23 Apr 2018, 12:32 pm

New article! https://www.cbr.com/star-wars-kylo-ren-rey-couple/

Star Wars: 17 Reasons Why Rey And Kylo Ren Are The Most Powerful Couple In the Galaxy

Star Wars: 17 Reasons Why Rey And Kylo Ren Are The Most Powerful Couple In the Galaxy
Two of the standout stars of the new Star Wars saga have sparked some of the most intriguing fan theories to date. The most fascinating of these theories centers around dark side warrior Kylo Ren and Jedi-in-training Rey becoming a romantic couple. If they did, they would join the ranks of the high profile love stories that anchored both the prequels and the original trilogy, and give the final chapter of the saga its greatest pairing. While both Rey and Kylo Ren come from vastly different origins, their connection over feelings of loss, abandonment, and betrayal cannot be denied. They have palpable on-screen chemistry, and the scenes involving just the two of them crackle with dramatic tension.

The notion that opposites attract has been explored in several Star Wars films, providing much needed passion and emotional depth. Both the pairings of the smuggler Han Solo and the willful Princess Leia, as well as the distinguished Senator Padme Amidala and the wildcard Jedi Anakin Skywalker, sought to showcase the risk involved in partnering with someone that altered the landscape of the film narrative. That risk provided meaning to the characters’ sacrifice, and highlights the core themes of the Star Wars films; your destiny is your own.

17. THEY HAVE A POWERFUL FORCE BOND

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In The Last Jedi, Kylo Ren and Rey are able to communicate with each other across the galaxy, indicating a Force bond unlike anything we’ve ever seen before. In Rey’s case, her attunement with the Force allows her to see Kylo Ren’s surroundings, and at one point while she is on Ahch-To, it’s implied she could very well reach out and touch him.

There have been several notable Force connections throughout the Star Wars films, all of them centered around the Skywalker family.

As twins, Luke and Leia had something akin to a Force bond, and Darth Vader had a Force connection with his son, but like bad cell reception, seemed to drop bars the further away from each other they were. The fact that Ren and Rey’s can transcend the physical realm indicates a bond that is more intimate than any a Sith or Jedi have experienced.

16. THEY HAVE A LOT OF CHEMISTRY

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So far, every Star Wars episode has been influenced by a romantic subplot. Even Rogue One: A Star Wars Story featured two main protagonists falling in love. And while the pithy banter exchanged between Han Solo and Leia, or Padme and Anakin may pass for “chemistry”, it’s nothing compared to what Kylo Ren and Rey have together (even if Anakin was shirtless in a few scenes).

Take for instance on Takodana in The Force Awakens, where he uses the Force to make her swoon into his waiting arms, before carrying her bridal-style to his ship. Or during their intimate interrogation scene, when he wanted to get to find out Resistance intel. Or when he has his shirt off during one of their Force bonding moments in The Last Jedi, quite sure she’ll be able to see him. Their chemistry is palpable, intimate, and more intense than any other couple.

15. THEY BRING “BALANCE TO THE FORCE”

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It was once prophesied in the Jedi Order that a Chosen One would bring “Balance to the Force”. At one time they believed that person to be Anakin Skywalker, a young boy from Tatooine created by the midichlorians themselves inside a slave woman. Anakin fell to the Dark Side, and so it was hoped that it was in fact his son, Luke Skywalker, that would bring about the balance. But was it?

Luke failed in the teaching of Ben Solo, his nephew and a quarter Skywalker, and so the galaxy saw the rise of  potentially its greatest Dark Side warrior since Darth Vader.

The prophecy may in fact not be on the shoulders of one Jedi, but in the pairing of them with the greatest potential Sith. Ony through these two opposites can the fabled balance be achieved. Kylo Ren and Rey may hold the key to its enduring success.

14. THEY’RE THE ULTIMATE ‘POWER COUPLE’ IN THE GALAXY

Though their backgrounds couldn’t be more different, Rey and Kylo Ren have forged their own unique paths to potentially becoming one of Star Wars’ greatest power couples. Rey comes from humble beginnings as the daughter of junkers on Jakku, and Kylo Ren comes from Star Wars royalty, aka being the son of Resistance General Leia Organa as well as the infamous smuggler and Resistance leader Han Solo. Being brought up on different sides of the galaxy didn’t change how powerful they were in the Force.

Rey has become a symbol of the Resistance, an impressive pilot, and well on her way to becoming a mighty Jedi. Kylo Ren has become a symbol of the First Order, a maverick with a lightsaber, and could be a more powerful Sith than Darth Vader. Together, their influence would be unstoppable.

13. THEY VALUE DEEP CONVERSATION

In The Last Jedi, during intense moments of their Force bond, Kylo Ren and Rey have a number of conversations focused on deep topics, including loss, grief, their futures, and what it means to fight on opposite sides of a galactic war.

“You’re not alone” he tells her at one point, indicating compassion. “Neither are you” she responds, indicating empathy.

When they are in Snoke’s throne room, at the conclusion of a furious battle, he confronts her with an illuminating point, “The Empire, your parents, the Resistance, the Sith, the Jedi…let the past die.” He is interested in finding out who she is without the trappings of her surroundings and her allies, and surprisingly includes himself in this revelation. Together, they can be more for each other than for anyone else they have served or fought alongside.

12. THEY COMBINE A HERO AND A VILLAIN

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While Han Solo may have never thought of himself as a hero, his pairing with Princess Leia wasn’t exactly shocking in Return of the Jedi because he’d proved himself loyal and valiant. While Star Wars Legends presented the marriage of Luke Skywalker to the Emperor’s Hand Mara Jade (who would have just as soon seen him dead once upon a time), she was never the monster her master was. And Padme recoiled from Anakin Skywalker the moment he turned to the Dark Side.

Kylo Ren is as villainous as they come in the Star Wars Universe. He ordered the destruction of entire villages of people on Jakku, Takodana, and murdered his own father. Rey being with him would be monumental, because she would be looking past his “destiny”, choosing him for who he is, not for who he has become, while simultaneously offering redemption.

11. THEY BOTH GO TO EXTREMES TO REACH THEIR GOALS
Kylo Ren Kills Han Solo
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Determination and commitment are both words to describe Kylo Ren and Rey, who director Rian Johnson of The Last Jedi has been quoted as saying are “two sides of the same protagonist”. This makes a certain amount of sense when you figure that they share the same goals (to locate Luke Skywalker, to “show their true nature” to one another), and will do just about anything to attain them.

Kylo Ren will kill anyone in his path, and Rey will join anyone in her path.

Kylo Ren might kill his own father to spite his mentor Luke Skywalker, yet Rey will trust an ex-stormtrooper and a smuggler to try to protect him. If they both focused their energies for the same purpose, their goals wouldn’t matter.

10. THEY’RE BOTH EAGER TO GET OVER THEIR PASTS

One of the most striking similarities between Kylo Ren and Rey is their desire to forget their pasts and forge their own destinies. Kylo Ren decided his parents were holding him back from realizing his full potential as a Jedi, and that Snoke was holding him back from realizing his full potential as a Sith. Rey, while very much invested in her past and the mysterious origins of her parents, is held captive by it and prevented from turning her thoughts to her future pursuits.

In Snoke’s throne room, Kylo gives her a choice to leave her past behind and not let it define her. “Kill it if you have to” he declares, executing his mentor Snoke so that he can be free to make his own choices. She is intrigued by his offer, acknowledging the freedom of forging their own paths, with each other for support.

9. KYLO REN CAN HELP REY DISCOVER HER TRUE FORCE POTENTIAL

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While some fans were busy complaining that Rey had too many Force abilities too fast in The Force Awakens, Kylo Ren was busy eyeballing the meaning behind her raw strength. Like Darth Vader did with Luke Skywalker, Kylo Ren correctly deduced that if Rey could be turned to the Dark Side, she would be a powerful ally for him and the regime he served.

Luke finally agreed to teach her once she found him on Ach-To, but he was afraid of her gifts.

There was much he didn’t teach her, for fear that she would end up like his former pupil, Ben Solo. Kylo Ren, while occasionally a wild card with his own Force use, could help Rey realize her true potential by relating to her and coaching her in the ways that worked best for him

8. THEY BOTH BOND OVER FEELING BROKEN

Kylo Ren and Rey both know that perfection is a myth, and that people are inherently flawed. Rey just happens to believe that people are ultimately good, while Kylo believes they are ultimately bad. Most people tend to fall somewhere in the middle, their actions derived from the experiences in their lives that make them who they are.

Both Kylo and Rey feel like their position in the galaxy is unsure, and that their parents do not ultimately care about what happens to them. They know they’ve also hurt people with their actions. They accept this and ultimately are able to see the strengths in each other’s characters where others see weaknesses. Rey may not know who her family is, but it frees her from the expectations of living up to a famous family name, for instance.

7. REY CAN HELP KYLO REN FIND REDEMPTION
Kylo Ren Holding Mask
Even after Darth Vader brought Luke Skywalker before the Emperor in Return of the Jedi in an attempt to persuade him to join the Dark Side, Luke stated “I feel the conflict within you”. Since the intimate torture scenes in which Kylo Ren attempted to glean Luke’s whereabouts from Rey, he offered her a window into his own inner workings. Rey sensed a conflict in the young Dark Side user.

Feeling betrayed by both his mentor and his family, Kylo Ren nevertheless cannot completely sever the link to them.

Even though he is now an agent of Supreme Leader Snoke’s in the First Order, he is emotionally pulled from his duties whenever the small part of him that values the light side is active. Rey never stops searching to exploit that side, and pull it further forward so he will see he doesn’t have to be a monster.

6. THEY’RE EMOTIONALLY HONEST WITH EACH OTHER

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Luke and Vader had a tendency to probe each other’s minds, often detecting the secrets that dwelled in the innermost corners. It is often a tactic of the Sith to reach out and expose weakness in an opponent, and Vader’s grandson was no stranger to this practice, often preying on Rey’s greatest insecurities. He never anticipated she would counter his methods, and probe his mind in return, causing him to question the very foundation of Supreme Leader Snoke’s teachings.

From The Force Awakens to The Last Jedi, Kylo Ren and Rey become more emotionally honest with one another. They go from trying to expose each other’s insecurities to discussing each other’s strengths. Rey believes Kylo Ren would make a powerful ally of the light, while he feels that the Dark Side could give her access to even more power than she has ever experienced under Luke’s tutelage.

5. THEY’RE VERY PASSIONATE PEOPLE

Though Rey may have began her journey in The Force Awakens as an isolated, emotionless loner out in the desert wastelands of Jakku, her passion and verve blossomed when she encountered the young ex-stormtrooper Finn. His posing as a member of the Resistance sucked her into an altruistic battle that gave her life a purpose and a new mission: to find Luke Skywalker and learn the true nature of her innate Force powers.

From the very first moment we see Kylo Ren becoming frustrated with a subordinate, taking his lightsaber to a console bay, we know how impassioned he can become.

His barely contained rage, fueled by feelings of betrayal and remorse, feed the Sith doctrine of encouraging emotional release. If he became romantically involved with Rey, it would be a fiery love affair not seen in any Star Wars film.

4. THEY BOTH KNOW WHAT IT’S LIKE TO FEEL ABANDONED

Experiencing feelings of loss and abandonment leave an indelible mark on a person’s psyche. Never knowing her parents and feeling abjured on a remote and hostile world rendered Rey almost incapable of forming close attachments to any other person. Feeling abandoned by both his parents to their causes, and his Jedi Master turning on him, scarred a young Ben Solo. It threw him into the waiting arms of Supreme Leader Snoke, where the merciless Kylo Ren could be reborn.

Though the reasons for their abandonment issues are vastly different, they both carry a great amount of resentment and anger towards their parents. For one reason or another, they felt neglected and cast aside, which means they can find great solace in one another life experiences.

3. THEY DON’T HAVE A GIANT AGE GAP

The great romance of the Star Wars prequels involved Anakin Skywalker and Padme Amidala. When they first meet, Anakin is nine and Padme is 14 which, while not seeming like a large age gap, makes for some truly awkward moments when the seeds of romance are supposed to be sown. Later, when he is a mewling teenager, she is a respectable senator with little time for flirtations.

When Han Solo first encounters Princess Leia, she is barely into her 20s, and he is at least a decade older, if not more.

Kylo Ren and Rey meet when they are of an appropriate age, with appropriate chemistry, as young adults both discovering their self worth as they find their self reliance. This allows them to grow comfortably together, without any of the awkwardness of a large age gap.

2. THEY MEAN SOMETHING IMPORTANT TO EACH OTHER

Though Rey may have felt that Kylo Ren was a “monster”, by The Last Jedi she has begun to view him differently. Though she still refers to him as such in certain moments, she also claims to have seen a future where his villainy does not take precedent. It doesn’t have complete clarity, but it is a future that can be changed if he wills it. She begins to understand that their destinies will most likely be intertwined, depending on the choice he makes, and the conflict within him.

When Kylo Ren later mocks her for the fact that her parents were junk traders on Jakku, who most likely sold her for “drinking money”, he calls her “nothing”. “You’re nothing” he admits, “But not to me.” It is then that he admits she is as important to him as he is becoming to her and her destiny with the Force.

1. THEY UNDERSTAND EACH OTHER’S PERSPECTIVES
Rey and Kylo Ren in The Last Jedi
Through the begrudging tutelage of Luke Skywalker, Rey learned a great deal about Kylo Ren when he was known to his family as Ben Solo. A powerful Force user, she learned that from her mentor’s perspective, he was lustful for power and could become even more formidable than Darth Vader. Kylo Ren counters the story, informing her that he was betrayed by his mentor and almost killed for a destiny of evil that wasn’t certain.

Rey’s destiny on Jakku would have been sealed had she not been swept up with the Resistance, but it was allowed to evolve, especially under Luke’s guidance. Kylo Ren learned he needed to end Snoke’s control of him if he was to ever forge his own destiny. They both know the necessity of breaking free from the chains of their fate and make their own will a reality

Just dont agree with the age thing lol since they probs dont realise Leia and Han had the same age diff

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Re: The Last Jedi: Professional Reviews, Articles

Post by Lily Snape on Tue 24 Apr 2018, 8:40 am

@Riri

Rey is 19 and Kylo is 29 in TFA (and presumably TLJ, since it occurs like a week later), which is not much less than the Han/Leia age gap, so I agree with you there. And one more thing—a technicality—Kylo is not a Sith. I cannot believe how nerdy I am. Smile
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Re: The Last Jedi: Professional Reviews, Articles

Post by SoloSideCousin on Sun 06 May 2018, 8:06 am

This is an interesting article comparing TLJ to Infinity War. The writer finds TLJ to be much braver and much more well done. There are some spoilers for IW, so if you want to see IW and haven't seen it yet, you might want to wait on this article or skip it.

http://amp.slate.com/culture/2018/05/avengers-infinity-war-and-the-last-jedi-take-very-different-approaches-to-long-running-franchises.html
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Re: The Last Jedi: Professional Reviews, Articles

Post by Riri on Tue 03 Jul 2018, 8:31 am

This is a really long article/essay by Film Crit Hulk.

"The Beautiful, Ugly, and Possessive Hearts of Star Wars
http://observer.com/2018/07/film-crit-hulk-the-beautiful-ugly-and-possessive-hearts-of-star-wars/

The author says TLJ rekindled his love for SW and analyses characters/storytelling/tone etc. It's a very worthwhile read. He also thinks Reylo is obvious. Here's an excerpt re Kylo's arc:

"Kylo: So Kylo Ren is my favorite part of the new trilogy, which is probably because his characterization was also my favorite part of The Force Awakens. I love that the big bad of Star Wars is now imagined to be a moody, impetuous and entitled young man. In the opening scene of The Last Jedi, Snoke dramatizes his failure in the last film and calls out his impetuous, raging, juvenile nature. He laughs at him for trying to be a posturing bad***, even calls him “a boy in a mask” and a wannabe like Vader (yes, there strikes Dark Side fandom in a very specific place). Kylo can only react by smashing that same mask in the elevator. I’m not hiding! Let me prove it! Smash smash smash! By smashing it, he’s of course only treating the symptom, not the problem. Kylo does not understand his own lingering wounds. Sure, he has the courage to kill his father, but in the space battle in the opening act, he cannot bring himself to shoot down his mother (while another ship does it in his place). Beyond the anger of Kylo Ren, there is an immense pain.

But then a mysterious thing starts happening: Kylo starts force connecting to Rey. Neither understands what is happening or why. (For the logic obsessed people, we’ve seen that people can force communicate across distances, we have no reason to not extend the logic a little further, but even getting into this is not the point because it’s a great dramatic choice). But so many of Kylo’s feelings start coming into play: fear, anger, empathy, even (gulp) attraction.

All their scenes get to the heart of his anger at Luke Skywalker, the one who was supposed to look after him, but who ended up merely trying to murder him. The pain of this knows no bounds, and is all part of the confusion of an angry young man who does not understand the catch-22 of why people fear his anger and can only lash out in turn. But it also makes us understand Kylo’s humanity, and wonder, “is he capable of turning back toward good?”

Nope. At least not right now. Rey goes to Kylo and we realize it was all part of Snoke’s masterminding to try turn her bad. Kylo watches his master speak smugly to her in his chair. He feels used. And he clearly feels something for Rey, too. And as she denies Snoke from moral conviction, his anger seethes. All it takes is Snoke finally belittling him and boom, enfant terrible strikes with a turn of the light saber and he kills his master. Cue a bad a** fight scene where Rey and Kylo take on the imperial guards. Gasp! Has Kylo realized the error of his ways? Of course not. He’s just as impetuous as ever. So sick of being belittled, he is also as impatient as ever. He has no regard for his worship of elders, telling her “burn the past, kill it if you have to.” Sure he has feelings for Rey, but they are the toxic feelings of a boy who doesn’t understand the difference between a crush and love, possessiveness and partnership. She denies him, and so she becomes just another person he must put against the wall. The boy emperor is assuming his place the top, certain this will surely give him the sense of control he desperately craves. Falsely believing this too will fix his feeling of powerlessness, he only becomes more and more out of control. In the final sequence, he forgoes all reason to concentrate on killing Luke Skywalker, who he believes is the source of his pain, only to be duped at the end.

This articulation behind Kylo’s continued fall is brilliant. He has clear issues of abandonment, which feed his anger. And when Luke feared his anger, he saw this as yet another betrayal. We so clearly see what Kylo wants. He wants love. He wants a feeling of control. But like so many toxic young men, he does not realize that comes from the peace inside, and not in the reflection of the world around him. If anything, when we rage inside, we only see the rage in the world. And so Kylo will fight it, burn it, kill it all the way down with no regard for anyone, thinking this will save him. It is his flawed adaption. Being a Sith lord makes him feel powerful. Being the head of the empire makes him feel powerful. But in the end, he only feels the powerlessness of that which he does not possess. Whoa. I cannot wait to see how this journey concludes, and whether it will consume him, or whether he will finally be able to undo the pain deep in his heart"

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Re: The Last Jedi: Professional Reviews, Articles

Post by Saracene on Tue 03 Jul 2018, 9:21 am

@Riri I liked his assessment of Kylo's arc, but if he sees Reylo he seems to only see it as a one-sided thing. Like many others, he kinda bypasses Rey and Kylo's relationship in the film from Rey's point of view, other than briefly saying that she cares about Kylo's pain.

I also really can't agree with him re: Finn and Rey's character arcs at all.
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Re: The Last Jedi: Professional Reviews, Articles

Post by Riri on Tue 03 Jul 2018, 9:48 am

@Saracene

I admit i only read Luke/Rey/Kylo's assessment and missed out Finn. I noticed his Rey assessment mostly consists of her abandonment issues and doesn't mention Ben as much, i'm not sure if it's because he wants to focus on her family issues or because he thinks it's one-sided Reylo. Interesting a lot of people think Ben's feelings are way more explicit and Rey's are still rather ambiguous. Hopefully 9 will change that.

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Re: The Last Jedi: Professional Reviews, Articles

Post by californiagirl on Tue 03 Jul 2018, 10:25 am

@Riri @Saracene  Came here because I also saw this, and goodness it took me a long time to get through. He does seem to see Rey's emotions as very platonic. And none of the more sexual elements or imagery are mentioned. He focuses on the Luke angle, which while not untrue, is a bit one-sided. At least he saw Kylo's attraction to Rey, and in a non-manipulative way. That's a whole lot more more observant than many viewers. Nor has he shut himself out to the possibility of redemption.

I practically grinned when I read what he says about Finn's arc because we've complained about it so much over here.  Smile   I think it's a matter of execution rather than intent. The way author describes it is how it appears Rian views that storyline and arc as well. Whether it hit home for viewers or not is an entirely separate matter.

What bugged me about this article was the way he described TFA. Yes it was indulgent. Yes it was overly-nostalgic. Yes it was very fast-paced. We could go on about its issues all day. But one of the reasons I slowly acquired whatever obsession with the ST I did was because I realized the discussion around TFA was very shallow and equally limited in its talking points (ANH rehash, Mary Sue, Kylo the wuss). There was an unidentified something to it I couldn't quite put my finger on. Plus the fact I would have practically bet money Rey and Kylo would have some kind of connection and/or teamup by the end of the next movie. And I frankly already expected Episode VIII to blow everything we knew up. TFA already told us that Luke was guilty over his failures and ran off. That Rey's parents were not crucial to the plot or her character development shouldn't be some grand surprise either.

But the author makes it sound as if every great thing he loved in TLJ came into being in TLJ and was not set up at all in the previous film. That TFA was just an incoherent, indulgent, theme-less mess about nothing of substance and that had no point (except Kylo) other than to delight the audience and introduce some new characters. On some level it absolutely was that, but it isn't limited to being only that. It's the whole narrative about how the two movies are completely different standalone films with completely unrelated purposes. It's such a common refrain that it annoys me to no end now, and I always find this surprising when the person in question has the amount of intellect and insight as this author.
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Re: The Last Jedi: Professional Reviews, Articles

Post by Saracene on Tue 03 Jul 2018, 10:57 am

@californiagirl I could be wrong, but my purely "gut" reading is that he's one of the people who's basically uncomfortable with the idea of the good and pure Rey having any romantic feelings/attraction towards Kylo. Like, it's fine if Rey feels platonic compassion, but anything more than this, er no. I'm really curious as to what his response to the Episode IX is going to be, if it plays out the way we think it will.

What annoyed me was his statement that every character arc in TLJ is executed with perfect clarity, when a lot of what he's written is his own interpretations that aren't really stated anywhere in the film. Finn sees himself in the abused animals? Possible interpretation, but there's nowhere in the film where that's explicit; he just mostly tags along with Rose who makes all the decisions about freeing them and doesn't seem particularly angry. Rey wants to be a Jedi just like Luke? Erm, if that's what she wanted wouldn't she have said so when Luke asks her why she's on the island? And don't get me started on the "Rey wished for her parents to be special". Um, when?
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Re: The Last Jedi: Professional Reviews, Articles

Post by Riri on Tue 03 Jul 2018, 11:34 am

@Saracene @californiagirl

Seems like he's a bit too wary of a certain trope, he should really trust the storytellers.



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Re: The Last Jedi: Professional Reviews, Articles

Post by Saracene on Tue 03 Jul 2018, 11:49 am

@Riri wrote:@Saracene @californiagirl

Seems like he's a bit too wary of a certain trope, he should really trust the storytellers.
@Riri

I would have thought it was pretty obvious that TLJ closed the door on that particular trope. But this is still often a knee-jerk response, even when one says nothing about Rey turning Kylo around with her love.
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Re: The Last Jedi: Professional Reviews, Articles

Post by californiagirl on Tue 03 Jul 2018, 5:15 pm

@Saracene He didn't strike me as being too paranoid. I was sort of impressed he picked up on Kylo's attraction towards Rey and his desire for love without seeming creeped out or alarmed about it. He does point out that Kylo is still kind of posessive and unhealthy about it, but he doesn't shut down all hope of the possibility. And he sounds sort of open in the tweet above. Like I said the other day, Rey's no longer going do all the work for him, nor has she been treated as a prize for him, which is the concern many, including this guy, have about their arcs. I think we're already safe from all that. I'll take any non-aggression from reviewers as potential.

I've noticed a trend though many reactions to TLJ, in not seeing Rey's attraction towards Kylo. I know the movies are vaguer about her feelings than Kylo's sometimes, but it's still weird for the basic motivations and feelings of the protagonist to have such a wide range of interpretations, and at this late stage no less. It should ideally not be myterious at the two thirds mark of the trilogy.
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Re: The Last Jedi: Professional Reviews, Articles

Post by Riri on Tue 03 Jul 2018, 6:48 pm

So Rian tweeted the article


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Re: The Last Jedi: Professional Reviews, Articles

Post by Birdwoman on Tue 03 Jul 2018, 7:21 pm

I am reading the above article right now. Boy, the author really disliked TFA. I don't agree with him. I enjoyed TFA and I feel that JJ did set up the basic story of the new characters. Was TFA perfect? No, but it helped relaunch the ST and Rian took the reins and moved the story along.

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Re: The Last Jedi: Professional Reviews, Articles

Post by whisperingwillow on Tue 03 Jul 2018, 8:27 pm

@californiagirl wrote:I've noticed a trend though many reactions to TLJ, in not seeing Rey's attraction towards Kylo. I know the movies are vaguer about her feelings than Kylo's sometimes, but it's still weird for the basic motivations and feelings of the protagonist to have such a wide range of interpretations, and at this late stage no less. It should ideally not be myterious at the two thirds mark of the trilogy.
@californiagirl

I think beacuse Kylo and Rey start the movie in very different places in their feelings towards one another Kylo's feelings are far easier to see because he doesn't begin the movie hating Rey. For Rey to begin to develop feelings for Kylo (which she does but I contend she doesn't yet have any idea that she is tbh) she has to move a really long way from the rage she feels towards him at the beginning. I know this isn't a one to one comparison but Luke's feeling towards Vader at the end of ESB weren't fleshed out either. At the end of ESB you had this story where a young man has found out Vader is his father setting up the third dramatic act but it isn't till ROTJ where we learn about Luke's desire to save his father. At the end of TLJ, we have a young woman who now has complicated feelings (where she doesn't even know what those are) towards the the villain setting up the third act to the story where whatever Rey feels begins to come to light and plays a role in how the third act will unfold.
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Re: The Last Jedi: Professional Reviews, Articles

Post by MaddieDove on Tue 03 Jul 2018, 8:53 pm

I like to read Film Crit Hulk when I have time, because I always learn something new about film storytelling, so I enjoyed this article as well (I also checked the links to his posts on Marvel movies). I wouldn't be so harsh on some of his points, especially on Reylo, because I don't think that was the point of this particular text. It seemed to me he wanted to provide here a clear summary of key characters' motivations and arcs, and not a deep analysis (he admitted he saw the movie only once, six months ago). On the other side, he took time to unpack the negative response to TLJ, which is something interests me as well. It seems that the lack of emotional maturity of the audience is what he sees as one of important factors in hostility towards the movie that some people exhibit. Indulging in juvenile power fantasies is quite on spot observation - I like he mentioned the Vader scene from Rogue One, and how some fans are cheering on Vader being bad***. Yes, it was nice, but ultimatelly an indulging scene and not in the spirit of Star Wars mythology and legacy. Once I visited a Star Wars exhibition in Paris, and when entering the room where the original Darth Vader costume was exhibited, with suggestive lighting and sound effects of his breathing under the mask, I felt really scared - the flashbacks of my childhood emotions towards Darth Vader got instantly through me. It was eerie, and completely Star Wars. The dark side is supposed to be dark and unsettling, not a cheep celebration of violence.

Sometime we can indulge in fantasies of our own, romantic fantasies on Reylo included (like in fanfiction, or just plain daydreaming about the characters and their relationship beyond that which is shown on screen). Some people have other kind of fantasies (Finnrey...), which is ok (and stops being ok when they nonsensically trash the character of Kylo and the real life fans of other persuasions). Of course, I do believe that two movies support Reylo and that our extra enthusiasm will be richly rewarded in the third film, because that is part of the trilogy conceptualization. But, as I said, I wouldn't be too harsh on anyone who is reserved in this moment - we still have only two acts of the story told. I liked his positive evaluation of the whole Luke case in TLJ. And I like that Rian read this article, because Crit Hulk does praise him a lot.
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Re: The Last Jedi: Professional Reviews, Articles

Post by californiagirl on Tue 03 Jul 2018, 8:58 pm

@whisperingwillow wrote:
@californiagirl wrote:I've noticed a trend though many reactions to TLJ, in not seeing Rey's attraction towards Kylo. I know the movies are vaguer about her feelings than Kylo's sometimes, but it's still weird for the basic motivations and feelings of the protagonist to have such a wide range of interpretations, and at this late stage no less. It should ideally not be myterious at the two thirds mark of the trilogy.
@californiagirl

I think beacuse Kylo and Rey start the movie in very different places in their feelings towards one another Kylo's feelings are far easier to see because he doesn't begin the movie hating Rey. For Rey to begin to develop feelings for Kylo (which she does but I contend she doesn't yet have any idea that she is tbh) she has to move a really long way from the rage she feels towards him at the beginning. I know this isn't a one to one comparison but Luke's feeling towards Vader at the end of ESB weren't fleshed out either. At the end of ESB you had this story where a young man has found out Vader is his father setting up the third dramatic act but it isn't till ROTJ where we learn about Luke's desire to save his father. At the end of TLJ, we have a young woman who now has complicated feelings (where she doesn't even know what those are) towards the the villain setting up the third act to the story where whatever Rey feels begins to come to light and plays a role in how the third act will unfold.
@whisperingwillow

Agreed, it's just interesting on how some viewers see Rey in some ways and a whole other group of people see her in a completely opposite light. And I'm unclear if Rian wanted everyone to be on the same page or if he wanted to spark this debate with a variety of interpretations.
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Re: The Last Jedi: Professional Reviews, Articles

Post by Kylo Rey on Tue 03 Jul 2018, 9:40 pm

@whisperingwillow wrote:
@californiagirl wrote:I've noticed a trend though many reactions to TLJ, in not seeing Rey's attraction towards Kylo. I know the movies are vaguer about her feelings than Kylo's sometimes, but it's still weird for the basic motivations and feelings of the protagonist to have such a wide range of interpretations, and at this late stage no less. It should ideally not be myterious at the two thirds mark of the trilogy.
@californiagirl

I think beacuse Kylo and Rey start the movie in very different places in their feelings towards one another Kylo's feelings are far easier to see because he doesn't begin the movie hating Rey. For Rey to begin to develop feelings for Kylo (which she does but I contend she doesn't yet have any idea that she is tbh) she has to move a really long way from the rage she feels towards him at the beginning. I know this isn't a one to one comparison but Luke's feeling towards Vader at the end of ESB weren't fleshed out either. At the end of ESB you had this story where a young man has found out Vader is his father setting up the third dramatic act but it isn't till ROTJ where we learn about Luke's desire to save his father. At the end of TLJ, we have a young woman who now has complicated feelings (where she doesn't even know what those are) towards the the villain setting up the third act to the story where whatever Rey feels begins to come to light and plays a role in how the third act will unfold.
@whisperingwillow

This is a really good point. We have the benefit of hindsight now and Luke redeeming his father is so embedded in the public consciousness but it's true, we don't really see clearly defined feelings from him until ROTJ. His reaction to the infamous father reveal is of course denial and that iconic Skywalker "NOOOOO" (lol) so the most you would have had to go on from TESB was some mixed feelings at best. Only until ROTJ does Luke come to accept this revelation and has that desire to save his father (and even though he is his father, he wasn't under any obligation to do that, I mean, he didn't even grow up knowing him). So for Rey, it won't be until IX where her feelings become actualised (to borrow a word from that article).

@californiagirl I thought TLJ made Rey's attraction to Kylo obvious, but I guess it still must be ambiguous or vague for a lot of people. There's the whole 'she's doing it for the Resistance' thing that seems to cloud people's judgement too (which is funny because Luke calls her out on that in the movie). TBH, Kylo's attraction to her is a lot more obvious. If you think about it, Rey's extreme reactions of hate in the early scenes only seem to reinforce his soft, *heart eyes emoji* behaviour. She's spitting at him, all righteous and hateful in her indignation while he's just curious and inquisitive about the FB and doesn't seem to bear any grudge against her for the scar on his face. At the end of the day, we did get a confession of Kylo's feelings towards Rey and it was a twisted love confession (as some critics called it). It might not have been worded in the best of ways, but he made it clear that she was of at least some importance to him and that he wanted her by his side. That is canon. You can think it's problematic or whatever but you can still apply that reading and come to the conclusion that he desires her on *some* level, even if it's purely superficial lust/sexual desire. After all, he's the one who's making overtures and offered her the galaxy (coded like a marriage proposal).

@MaddieDove Your point about how two movies support Reylo reminded me of an argument I was reading on another forum. One of the fans was a FinnRey who is adamant that because JJ is coming back, he'll make Rey & Finn canon in IX. The other fan (who wasn't even a Reylo, but loves both Rey and Kylo as characters) brought up the John Boyega quotes about how it's a friendship, the next to zero interaction in TLJ and of course how JJ was the one who made Rey friendzone Finn in TFA. He was like it's time to let it die, it's not happening and pointed out that even though Rey closed the door on Kylo, at least Reylos could take comfort in the fact that two movies have built up their relationship. So even non-Reylos can see that, it's not purely bias. Which highlights the fact that because of the structure of the trilogy, Rey and Finn literally don't make sense as a couple as they missed the important interactions in the middle chapter. Fin wasn't even shoved into a love triangle with Rey and Kylo, he was simply excised from that plot completely as the other two had intimate interactions with each other and helped each other develop. Not to mention Finn has his own LI in Rose.

The article itself was great, I thought, even if I don't agree with everything and I'm glad Rian read it. His summary/analysis of the movie was interesting but the more fascinating thing to me was the exploration of why people didn't like it etc. It's a pretty deep dive into the fandom aspect of it and he completely nailed the 'indulgence' of movies in the modern era and why the MCU irritates me so much (nearly all their films fit that story structure mentioned in the article to a tee).
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Re: The Last Jedi: Professional Reviews, Articles

Post by special_cases on Tue 03 Jul 2018, 9:52 pm

Cinema Sins may have been just a "joke" but they created and support internet-culture where thousands of viewers think that there are 50+ plotholes in every movie and the most basic "I don't like" = "bAd WriTing!1!1"

My fave "plothole" in TLJ always will be the Bombs Away moment. Before Pablo explained every fricking detail, we had soooooo many Nobel laureates in Physics in SW fandom. With complaints like these, what should we expect from story\arcs\execution analysis? "Luke said that Snoke have already turned his heart!!! It was OVER!!! Nothing makes SENSE!" Very Happy Very Happy

Edit: This's my reaction after reading Hulk's article and replies in RJ's tweet.
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Re: The Last Jedi: Professional Reviews, Articles

Post by Mila95 on Tue 03 Jul 2018, 11:07 pm

That's a good article.It really gets into why people have such a intense reaction to TLJ and it's basically what I've been able to see since getting into the SW fandom.Especially the stuff about how SW is so tied into some people's childhoods that it's pretty much impossible to perfectly achieve that Star Wars feeling that so many talk about because it's not something that can be replicated and it's different for everyone.And I like the observation that picking apart the logic like why didn't Holdo tell Poe apart from being explained in the movie,also means that you erase the conflict and are pretty much left with no story there.


I am surprised it doesn't get more into Rey's feelings for Kylo because the rest of the article is very familiar with storytelling methods and analyzed the movie deeper.I thought scenes like seeing Kylo shirtless and getting flustered or getting all up in his personal space in the elevator was a standard way of conveying attraction in movies.And there's her opening up to Kylo and accepting his sympathy and comfort,like that's pretty big sign as well.And there's her whole reaction to a vision of him redeemed which was pretty emotional for just someone she can see as a valuable ally.Same with her very emotional reaction when he didn't turn as she believed he would.TLJ is more subtle with the romance than a lot of other movies and definitely more than previous SW trilogies but it's not really that subtle imo.

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Re: The Last Jedi: Professional Reviews, Articles

Post by rey09 on Tue 03 Jul 2018, 11:35 pm

@Riri wrote:So Rian tweeted the article

@Riri

Lol is there a reason why he tagged the pres?
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Re: The Last Jedi: Professional Reviews, Articles

Post by Kylo Rey on Tue 03 Jul 2018, 11:53 pm

@rey09 wrote:
@Riri wrote:So Rian tweeted the article

@Riri

Lol is there a reason why he tagged the pres?
@rey09

He was having a convo with fellow colleague and film director Christopher McQuarrie when TLJ haters started hijacking it and sending RJ hate. As McQuarrie was tagged in the conversation he basically got caught in the crossfire. That's why he tagged Trump lol. Reason #245772 why RJ is the best.
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Re: The Last Jedi: Professional Reviews, Articles

Post by rey09 on Wed 04 Jul 2018, 12:04 am

@Kylo Rey wrote:
@rey09 wrote:
@Riri wrote:So Rian tweeted the article

@Riri

Lol is there a reason why he tagged the pres?
@rey09

He was having a convo with fellow colleague and film director Christopher McQuarrie when TLJ haters started hijacking it and sending RJ hate. As McQuarrie was tagged in the conversation he basically got caught in the crossfire. That's why he tagged Trump lol. Reason #245772 why RJ is the best.
@Kylo Rey

ooo loll
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Re: The Last Jedi: Professional Reviews, Articles

Post by Saracene on Wed 04 Jul 2018, 12:05 am

@californiagirl Rey's feelings and motivations in TLJ are just obscured more than normal when it comes to a protagonist. We don't get to see or know about her vision, which is what motivated her to do the most radical thing in the series. I've noticed that some pieces omit the vision entirely and just attribute Rey's actions to her sensing conflict in Kylo. Then the movie skips the entire immediate emotional aftermath of the throne room and has Rey revert to her upbeat heroic persona after keeping her offscreen for most of the third act. A scene where Rey stands over Kylo's unconscious body, uncertain what to do, practically begs to be written, but then it would have to deal with Rey's feelings about him and the movie doesn't want to go there. Sure there are slight hints at the very end that Rey's reunion with the Resistance is not all happy times, but I'm certain that they went unnoticed by like 99% of the audience.

Re: conflict with Holdo, sure you need conflict in the story, but that's not to say that it can't be poorly executed or can't be expected to make sense to people? It seems unfair to shut down the criticism by saying, well you'd remove the conflict from the story otherwise.

Honestly, I think much of the audience wouldn't have had this reaction if Holdo's reasons for not telling the plan were better articulated in the movie. I've seen people come up with all sorts of sensible reasons, but all we really have in the movie is Holdo saying some wishy-washy stuff about hope being like the sun or something. But I guess because Rian wanted to keep some ambiguity re: who the audience should side with, Holdo wasn't allowed to say anything more clearly pragmatic.
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