Force Bond Logistics & Implications

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Force Bond Logistics & Implications

Post by thescavenger on Tue 19 Dec 2017, 5:33 am

I keep having mini conversations over in different threads on the nature of the Rey/Kylo force bond sessions in TLJ that maybe it would be better to put it all in one thread?

I think the points that come up the most are these:

- The origins of the Force Bond: who formed it, was it truly Snoke, or are they naturally bound together by the force  
- How did it work: Do they see each other only, not the surroundings?
- The physicality of it: Kylo having water on his gloves, but was not actually shot in the first session. Also them being able to touch hands and see the future.
- Luke's part in all these session: He wasn't able to see Kylo the first time around, but saw him in the hut scene.
- What the force bond implies on a bigger level: red thread, twin flames, yin yang and all that. I'm sure many of you are able to draw more than I have in this regard.

- Oh! Also, is the Forcetime communication the only thing special about the bond OR does it represent one of the things that link Kylo and Rey.


Last edited by thescavenger on Tue 19 Dec 2017, 8:09 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Force Bond Logistics & Implications

Post by MrsWindu on Tue 19 Dec 2017, 7:06 am

@thescavenger

Some great points with considering.
I was wondering to what extent they can control 'incoming ForceSkype' sessions? To begin with both were oblivious to it and Kylo thought it was projection. And Rey says at the beginning of that infamous scene “I’d rather not do this right now,”  to with Kylo answers “Yeah, me too,” which implies they had no say on when Force Skype is open. However after the Cave of Mirrors it looks like Rey had purposely speed dialled ( or hit recents) Kylo because she really needed to talk to some one about her experience. So are we to assume by that stage they have a semblance of command over Skype, and it will evolve over time ? And will JJ use it to greater effect in IX
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Re: Force Bond Logistics & Implications

Post by Kessel on Tue 19 Dec 2017, 7:23 am

@MrsWindu wrote:@thescavenger

Some great points with considering.
I was wondering to what extent they can control 'incoming ForceSkype' sessions? To begin with both were oblivious to it and Kylo thought it was projection. And Rey says at the beginning of that infamous scene “I’d rather not do this right now,”  to with Kylo answers “Yeah, me too,” which implies they had no say on when Force Skype is open. However after the Cave of Mirrors it looks like Rey had purposely speed dialled Kylo because she really needed to talk to some one about her experience. So are we to assume by that stage they have a semblance of command over Skype, and it will evolve over time ? And will JJ use it to greater effect in IX


@MrsWindu

Omg, if Snoke was manipulating the bond, he did that one on purpose. He wanted Rey to see Kylo's pecs! Shocked So Snoke was the biggest Reylo, but for nefarious reasons. I see why he comes across as such a creeper and why they put him in a gold Heff robe and gave him gold slippers.

As for the bond, I think it evolved over time. It seems like they were able to better control it the more they connected to each other.  I wonder if that last scene of Kylo kneeling and staring plaintively up at Rey was him trying to connect to her and her shutting him off (hanging up the call)?

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Re: Force Bond Logistics & Implications

Post by Darth_marshmallow on Tue 19 Dec 2017, 7:59 am

@Kessel wrote:
@MrsWindu wrote:@thescavenger

Some great points with considering.
I was wondering to what extent they can control 'incoming ForceSkype' sessions? To begin with both were oblivious to it and Kylo thought it was projection. And Rey says at the beginning of that infamous scene “I’d rather not do this right now,”  to with Kylo answers “Yeah, me too,” which implies they had no say on when Force Skype is open. However after the Cave of Mirrors it looks like Rey had purposely speed dialled Kylo because she really needed to talk to some one about her experience. So are we to assume by that stage they have a semblance of command over Skype, and it will evolve over time ? And will JJ use it to greater effect in IX


@MrsWindu

Omg, if Snoke was manipulating the bond, he did that one on purpose. He wanted Rey to see Kylo's pecs! Shocked So Snoke was the biggest Reylo, but for nefarious reasons. I see why he comes across as such a creeper and why they put him in a gold Heff robe and gave him gold slippers.

As for the bond, I think it evolved over time. It seems like they were able to better control it the more they connected to each other.  I wonder if that last scene of Kylo kneeling and staring plaintively up at Rey was him trying to connect to her and her shutting him off (hanging up the call)?
@Kessel
I've almost choked on my coffie ROFL
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Re: Force Bond Logistics & Implications

Post by thescavenger on Tue 19 Dec 2017, 8:13 am

@Darth_marshmallow wrote:
@Kessel wrote:
@MrsWindu wrote:@thescavenger

Some great points with considering.
I was wondering to what extent they can control 'incoming ForceSkype' sessions? To begin with both were oblivious to it and Kylo thought it was projection. And Rey says at the beginning of that infamous scene “I’d rather not do this right now,”  to with Kylo answers “Yeah, me too,” which implies they had no say on when Force Skype is open. However after the Cave of Mirrors it looks like Rey had purposely speed dialled Kylo because she really needed to talk to some one about her experience. So are we to assume by that stage they have a semblance of command over Skype, and it will evolve over time ? And will JJ use it to greater effect in IX


@MrsWindu

Omg, if Snoke was manipulating the bond, he did that one on purpose. He wanted Rey to see Kylo's pecs! Shocked So Snoke was the biggest Reylo, but for nefarious reasons. I see why he comes across as such a creeper and why they put him in a gold Heff robe and gave him gold slippers.

As for the bond, I think it evolved over time. It seems like they were able to better control it the more they connected to each other.  I wonder if that last scene of Kylo kneeling and staring plaintively up at Rey was him trying to connect to her and her shutting him off (hanging up the call)?
@Kessel
I've almost choked on my coffie ROFL
@Darth_marshmallow

What's creepier is that that means he's been watching both Kylo and Rey the entire time.. hopefully not through that evil giant spyglass of his.
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Re: Force Bond Logistics & Implications

Post by SheLitAFire on Tue 19 Dec 2017, 9:03 am

@thescavenger

Great thread, thanks for starting it!
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Re: Force Bond Logistics & Implications

Post by colibri on Tue 19 Dec 2017, 10:32 am

@thescavenger wrote:
- The physicality of it: Kylo having water on his gloves, but was not actually shot in the first session.
@thescavenger

Killing the Force Bond "partner" through the bond would also destroy the bond itself. So the bond responds with "Error" to Rey's attempt Laughing
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Re: Force Bond Logistics & Implications

Post by Darth Dementor on Tue 19 Dec 2017, 11:53 am

@colibri wrote:
@thescavenger wrote:
- The physicality of it: Kylo having water on his gloves, but was not actually shot in the first session.
@thescavenger

Killing the Force Bond "partner" through the bond would also destroy the bond itself. So the bond responds with "Error" to Rey's attempt Laughing
@colibri

It looked like Kylo felt the shot when Rey fired though?

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Re: Force Bond Logistics & Implications

Post by lauvamp on Tue 19 Dec 2017, 12:17 pm

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Re: Force Bond Logistics & Implications

Post by LadyHa on Tue 19 Dec 2017, 1:02 pm

@Kessel wrote:

Omg, if Snoke was manipulating the bond, he did that one on purpose. He wanted Rey to see Kylo's pecs! Shocked So Snoke was the biggest Reylo, but for nefarious reasons. I see why he comes across as such a creeper and why they put him in a gold Heff robe and gave him gold slippers.

@Kessel

Wow, I hadn't quite drawn this connection. Andy Serkis was really interesting on the press circuit. You could see he wanted to get political and bring up the Trump administration several times, but would bite his tongue at the last minute. (Perhaps he was asked to not talk about it during interviews). But, he was so delighted to openly compare Snoke to Hefner, because he was playing dirty matchmaker with his young bunnies. Serkis also mentioned Snoke's fear of a "feminine force" and this turned out to not just be Rey, but also Leia and Holdo.

Also, Holdo is my Hero.
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Re: Force Bond Logistics & Implications

Post by thescavenger on Tue 19 Dec 2017, 1:18 pm

@LadyHa wrote:
@Kessel wrote:

Omg, if Snoke was manipulating the bond, he did that one on purpose. He wanted Rey to see Kylo's pecs! Shocked So Snoke was the biggest Reylo, but for nefarious reasons. I see why he comes across as such a creeper and why they put him in a gold Heff robe and gave him gold slippers.

@Kessel

Wow, I hadn't quite drawn this connection. Andy Serkis was really interesting on the press circuit. You could see he wanted to get political and bring up the Trump administration several times, but would bite his tongue at the last minute. (Perhaps he was asked to not talk about it during interviews). But, he was so delighted to openly compare Snoke to Hefner, because he was playing dirty matchmaker with his young bunnies. Serkis also mentioned Snoke's fear of a "feminine force" and this turned out to not just be Rey, but also Leia and Holdo.

Also, Holdo is my Hero.
@LadyHa

I really appreciate your take on Snoke. At first impression, you see him as an all-powerful evil figure, à la Palpatine. But really, he's just that gross misogynistic old man with a fetish for Force users. I'm just really sad for Ben at this point.
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Re: Force Bond Logistics & Implications

Post by thescavenger on Tue 19 Dec 2017, 1:23 pm

@Darth Dementor wrote:
@colibri wrote:
@thescavenger wrote:
- The physicality of it: Kylo having water on his gloves, but was not actually shot in the first session.
@thescavenger

Killing the Force Bond "partner" through the bond would also destroy the bond itself. So the bond responds with "Error" to Rey's attempt Laughing
@colibri

It looked like Kylo felt the shot when Rey fired though?
@Darth Dementor

Yeah, it was weird. He felt it, but he wasn't actually 'shot' shot. Even now, I still don't understand what that meant.
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Re: Force Bond Logistics & Implications

Post by LadyHa on Tue 19 Dec 2017, 1:50 pm

I am trying to sort through the cinematography for these scenes. All of the force bond scenes start from Rey's perspective except the one at the very end. This makes it seem more like Ben is on Ahch-To than she is in his quarters.  

Also, Rey remains pretty stationary in the scenes.  In contrast, Ben's camera shots are more active. During the first one, the camera gradually zooms in on Ben.  During the next two, he walks towards the camera, getting very close.  Even during hand sex, Rey holds her hand out and keeps it still, while Ben slowly extends his forward. Finally, in the last scene, Rey remains distant in the doorway, but every time we see Ben, the camera has moved closer until it's so close we are pretty much looking right up his nose.

Not sure what this means - as a viewer are we supposed to relate to Rey and feel like Ben is invading our space? Do the extreme closeups indicate that Ben is feeling more intimacy in the bond than Rey? Did the filmmakers apply some heterosexual dynamic of having the man be more active and the woman more passive?
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Re: Force Bond Logistics & Implications

Post by colibri on Tue 19 Dec 2017, 2:18 pm

@thescavenger wrote:
@Darth Dementor wrote:
@colibri wrote:
@thescavenger wrote:
- The physicality of it: Kylo having water on his gloves, but was not actually shot in the first session.
@thescavenger

Killing the Force Bond "partner" through the bond would also destroy the bond itself. So the bond responds with "Error" to Rey's attempt Laughing
@colibri

It looked like Kylo felt the shot when Rey fired though?
@Darth Dementor

Yeah, it was weird. He felt it, but he wasn't actually 'shot' shot. Even now, I still don't understand what that meant.
@thescavenger

Yes, it is a bit weird... Maybe they just aren't able to physically hurt each other through the bond? Because they aren't supposed to? I don't know. We've had this conversation several times about how the Force doesn't want them to fight against each other, which results in the ground breaking between them on Starkiller Base and the lightsaber breaking during their fight in the throne room.

Just a thought, though.
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Re: Force Bond Logistics & Implications

Post by ZioRen on Tue 19 Dec 2017, 2:47 pm

@thescavenger wrote:
@Darth Dementor wrote:
@colibri wrote:
@thescavenger wrote:
- The physicality of it: Kylo having water on his gloves, but was not actually shot in the first session.
@thescavenger

Killing the Force Bond "partner" through the bond would also destroy the bond itself. So the bond responds with "Error" to Rey's attempt Laughing
@colibri

It looked like Kylo felt the shot when Rey fired though?
@Darth Dementor

Yeah, it was weird. He felt it, but he wasn't actually 'shot' shot. Even now, I still don't understand what that meant.
@thescavenger

I saw it as just reflex. His brain told his body to react like it was shot because he really thought he'd gotten shot. So he flinched and covered the area with his arms, then only realized afterwards that nothing had happened. But then you have him with the rain on his glove and such, so the whole thing gets confusing.
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Re: Force Bond Logistics & Implications

Post by Kessel on Tue 19 Dec 2017, 3:09 pm

@thescavenger wrote:
@LadyHa wrote:
@Kessel wrote:

Omg, if Snoke was manipulating the bond, he did that one on purpose. He wanted Rey to see Kylo's pecs! Shocked So Snoke was the biggest Reylo, but for nefarious reasons. I see why he comes across as such a creeper and why they put him in a gold Heff robe and gave him gold slippers.

@Kessel

Wow, I hadn't quite drawn this connection.  Andy Serkis was really interesting on the press circuit.  You could see he wanted to get political and bring up the Trump administration several times, but would bite his tongue at the last minute.  (Perhaps he was asked to not talk about it during interviews). But, he was so delighted to openly compare Snoke to Hefner, because he was playing dirty matchmaker with his young bunnies.  Serkis also mentioned Snoke's fear of a "feminine force" and this turned out to not just be Rey, but also Leia and Holdo.

Also, Holdo is my Hero.
@LadyHa

I really appreciate your take on Snoke. At first impression, you see him as an all-powerful evil figure, à la Palpatine. But really, he's just that gross misogynistic old man with a fetish for Force users. I'm just really sad for Ben at this point.
@thescavenger

Another thing I was reminded of that fits with his predator/creeper vibe is the fact that the FO is supposedly composed of relatively young people (a younger version of the Empire), like Hux, a 34-year-old general, etc...they're younger of than their counterparts in the OT. I can just imagine Snoke preying on all these young people, gross.

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Re: Force Bond Logistics & Implications

Post by PalmettoBlue on Tue 19 Dec 2017, 3:34 pm

@colibri wrote:
@thescavenger wrote:
@Darth Dementor wrote:
@colibri wrote:
@thescavenger wrote:
- The physicality of it: Kylo having water on his gloves, but was not actually shot in the first session.
@thescavenger

Killing the Force Bond "partner" through the bond would also destroy the bond itself. So the bond responds with "Error" to Rey's attempt Laughing
@colibri

It looked like Kylo felt the shot when Rey fired though?
@Darth Dementor

Yeah, it was weird. He felt it, but he wasn't actually 'shot' shot. Even now, I still don't understand what that meant.
@thescavenger

Yes, it is a bit weird... Maybe they just aren't able to physically hurt each other through the bond? Because they aren't supposed to? I don't know. We've had this conversation several times about how the Force doesn't want them to fight against each other, which results in the ground breaking between them on Starkiller Base and the lightsaber breaking during their fight in the throne room.

Just a thought, though.
@colibri

That's exactly it, isn't it?
The Force has chosen its champions...and it will not allow them to destroy one another. It needs them both for balance, for them both to accept the duality of their natures. I remember on one SWC podcast, the speaker was saying that the Force was "in a bad way" after RotJ because there was only one active Force user out there, and he was very much a light side user. The Force, I don't think, sees anger as a necessarily bad thing. It's nature.
I started down this tangent the other day with a friend but never finished. Now I'm going to torture y'all!
In all seriousness, the Force is a natural entity, correct? And nature works to maintain a balance. It looks brutal and even cruel (lion kills the gazelle - poor gazelle, right? But that kill allows the lion pride to live. And they don't kill off an entire herd, just the one.) The Force was making do with users who practiced primarily on one side (Sith v Jedi) and the destruction of the last Sith completely threw that out of whack - but I think the optimum condition is the condition of balance within each Force user.
Kylo/Ben is dangerously unbalanced on several levels right now, and Rey is much more stable, but together they are like magic - perfectly balancing off one another. Yin and yang....
So no - the Force has had about enough of this sith. They will never destroy each other. And together, with the help of the old books that Luke should have probably read a bit more closely, they will find that "refined Jedi sight" that will lead to balance going forward.

At least, that's my outrageously optimistic head canon and I'm going with it.
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Re: Force Bond Logistics & Implications

Post by Aphelionna on Tue 19 Dec 2017, 3:36 pm

I don't know if anyone here has watched the Netflix show Sense8 (if you haven't please check it out, it's fantastic!), but the premise is that separate people from various countries in the world suddenly form a telepathic link to strangers and begin to explore those relationships through that link. In the show the process is called 'visiting', and they usually have no control over when they visit each other. It mostly happens at a time when one character is in emotional distress or needs physical help.

It's represented visually by having both characters seemingly in each others spaces simultaneously (like in this clip [x], the characters are talking while being on a rooftop in sunny Mumbai, but also getting soaked by rain in Berlin).

I found it interesting that Rian chose to do the opposite with the force bond in TLJ, he showed us Rey and Kylo in their respective environments but never together. At first, after being used to the fluid editing of a telepathic link in Sense8, it felt jarring to me. But then we were given the campfire hand holding reveal and we see both Rey and Kylo on Ach-To, showing just how closely they are now linked. He withheld the union of them on screen until they were finally joined together emotionally, and it only served to heighten the intimacy between them.

As you can imagine in Sense8, the relationships for certain pairings become intimate very quickly. They have heart to heart discussions that allow them to evaluate their current situations and feelings. They can touch each other (and yes, the can make out and have sex) and experience the other persons emotions and pain. Another bonus to the 'visiting'? They can share skills. It reminds me of those discussions around how Rey knew how to read Kylo's mind, and how to use the Jedi mind trick. I'm still certain that there was always a force bond there waiting to spring in to action, and Snoke just took used it for his own gain. I mean, Snoke had no idea who Rey was until the end of TFA, right?

What I find the most interesting is that the philosophy of Sense8 is that compassion and empathy for others, no matter what people have done, or where they come from is key to peace, happiness and a deeper understanding of the human race. Heck, my favourite ship in the show, Kala and Wolfgang (in the clip above) have similarities to Rey and Kylo. Wolfgang is a thief and murderer, a poster boy for the criminal underworld who sees himself as irredeemable. He also wears a lot of black Wink. Kala on the other hand is and incredibly hopeful person, who consistently tries to do the right thing and tries to save Wolfgang from himself.

I feel like there's a full on meta that could come out of this but I've never been good at writing that stuff. I just thought some of the similarities and differences are interesting Smile
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Re: Force Bond Logistics & Implications

Post by Gemini on Tue 19 Dec 2017, 7:56 pm

My take is:

Reylo have  been bonded since birth and snoke saw rey the second he got kylo at 15 "I saw raw powah and beyond that something  truly special". (Trailer cuts to rey here) Rey would have been 5 years old.. Just around the time she was abandoned and her memories ambiguous ... Has snoke been messing with them both all this time?

Crack theory^^^
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Re: Force Bond Logistics & Implications

Post by snufkin on Tue 19 Dec 2017, 11:21 pm

Snoke may have figured out (because he's a nosy creep who keeps tabs on Kylo) that something sparked up between those two kids. Likely from the beginning when they have their first Force Off and get into each other's minds. So Snoke boosted the signal because he wanted to lure Rey in and then murder her, but he didn't create it. And it's still there at the very end after he's gone, so somebody was lying/exaggerating to Ben. And the villain monologuing at that moment (Snoke apparently never saw The Incredibles) of being snide about what Ben clearly feels is a private and special part of his life, helped seal his death.
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Re: Force Bond Logistics & Implications

Post by IoJovi on Tue 19 Dec 2017, 11:30 pm

@snufkin wrote:Snoke may have figured out (because he's a nosy creep who keeps tabs on Kylo) that something sparked up between those two kids. Likely from the beginning when they have their first Force Off and get into each other's minds. So Snoke boosted the signal because he wanted to lure Rey in and then murder her, but he didn't create it. And it's still there at the very end after he's gone, so somebody was lying/exaggerating to Ben. And the villain monologuing at that moment (Snoke apparently never saw The Incredibles) of being snide about what Ben clearly feels is a private and special part of his life, helped seal his death.
@snufkin

I’m willing to bet Snoke didn’t create the bond to the point I’d put it on my Episode IX bingo card.  I think he discovered it, knew of his apprentice’s weakness for the scavenger, and exploited it with a goal to minimize it, causing both of them to doubt each other and themselves.  Snoke is dead and gone, yet the Bond remains.
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Re: Force Bond Logistics & Implications

Post by SoloSideCousin on Tue 19 Dec 2017, 11:43 pm

@snufkin wrote:Snoke may have figured out (because he's a nosy creep who keeps tabs on Kylo) that something sparked up between those two kids. Likely from the beginning when they have their first Force Off and get into each other's minds. So Snoke boosted the signal because he wanted to lure Rey in and then murder her, but he didn't create it. And it's still there at the very end after he's gone, so somebody was lying/exaggerating to Ben. And the villain monologuing at that moment (Snoke apparently never saw The Incredibles) of being snide about what Ben clearly feels is a private and special part of his life, helped seal his death.
@snufkin

I agree with all of this. The bond formed in the interrogation, but then Snoke read Kylo's mind and "boosted the signal." He probably was watching everything, and the fact that he got everything out of Rey in a matter of minutes when he has her up in the air, just goes to show how incredibly powerful and disgusting he is. You know that he pulled that kind of "give me everything " terribleness on Kylo/Ben. You can actually see the effects of this abuse in Adam Driver's performance in the beginning of that scene. He is passive at first.  He actually moves his head slightly to the side when the lightsaber is flying around, and doesn't even look up when it eventually hits Rey in the head. This is very much long-term abuse victim behavior, like he basically thinks that "this is the way it is and has to be". It takes hearing of the Snoke showing off about the bond for Kylo even to start to wake up. That part shows how absolutely traumatized he is *and* how it was such a massive thing for him to defy Snoke.


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Re: Force Bond Logistics & Implications

Post by rey09 on Tue 19 Dec 2017, 11:45 pm

The 10 year age difference bugs me. It would make more since if they were born around the same time, but o wells. I'm still holding on to tiny hope that inconsequential Jakku has something to do with Rey- perhaps her mother was exposed to some ancient Jakku force thing lol idk. They still haven't explained why she's so powerful. Like can the little boy at the end also dream of Ach-to? Why her? And it's interesting that both Luke and Kylo bring up Jakku as nowhere and nothing. Maybe it is just nothing...but I feel there's so much potential there. She just kind of the left the place in a hurry. 

I would love to see this force bond just grow more powerful as their emotions run higher. I think the hand touching is the first step. What if they would be able to embrace one another? I love the imagery of Rey putting her forehead on a sad Kylo. 

And yes, my mind has been in the gutter- if we can get hand sex...maybe the real deal too?  XD
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Force Ghost

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Re: Force Bond Logistics & Implications

Post by thescavenger on Tue 19 Dec 2017, 11:51 pm

@rey09 wrote:The 10 year age difference bugs me. It would make more since if they were born around the same time, but o wells. I'm still holding on to tiny hope that inconsequential Jakku has something to do with Rey- perhaps her mother was exposed to some ancient Jakku force thing lol idk. They still haven't explained why she's so powerful. Like can the little boy at the end also dream of Ach-to? Why her? And it's interesting that both Luke and Kylo bring up Jakku as nowhere and nothing. Maybe it is just nothing...but I feel there's so much potential there. She just kind of the left the place in a hurry. 

I would love to see this force bond just grow more powerful as their emotions run higher. I think the hand touching is the first step. What if they would be able to embrace one another? I love the imagery of Rey putting her forehead on a sad Kylo. 

And yes, my mind has been in the gutter- if we can get hand sex...maybe the real deal too?  XD
@rey09

I don't know. When Snoke said something along the lines of "... when the darkness rises, there would be light to meet it.." (oh god, I'm awful at remembering quotes), I thought maybe at age 10, Ben maybe had stirrings for the Dark Side, so Rey was born and their fates were intertwined or something like that. Even Snoke thought it was Luke who presented the Light against Kylo's Darkness, so that almost confirms that he didn't connect them.

If their hands touched and they saw each other's futures, and if they split the lightsaber in half and the room exploded.. I couldn't even begin to imagine what would happen if they have sex. Like yes Kylo, you will destroy everything - the Sith, Snoke, Skywalker, the Rebellion, etc. - without even having to try.
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thescavenger
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Jedi Padawan

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Re: Force Bond Logistics & Implications

Post by SheLitAFire on Wed 20 Dec 2017, 12:16 am

@SoloSideCousin wrote:

I agree with all of this. The bond formed in the interrogation, but then Snoke read Kylo's mind and "boosted the signal."
@SoloSideCousin

I still want to know why he flips the eff out when he hears about Rey & BB-8 "girl?! what girl?!"
And the "it is you" significance. (I think that's even more significant than my previous comment)
So the bond was formed during the interrogation, but he knew something beforehand? I think that's one of the things JJ thought might get discussed more in VIII.


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SheLitAFire
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