The Last Jedi: Our Reviews and Reactions

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Re: The Last Jedi: Our Reviews and Reactions

Post by AnneNeville on Fri 22 Dec 2017, 9:54 pm

Just got back from my second viewing. This time, I took my husband and my mother.

I LOVED it this time.

My husband was disappointed and felt it was underwhelming and like every other movie of the last ten years.

My mom came out and immediately said, "Oh, sorry, honey that your theory was wrong. He's never going to be redeemed after killing that many people."

My head hurts.
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Re: The Last Jedi: Our Reviews and Reactions

Post by FrolickingFizzgig on Fri 22 Dec 2017, 10:03 pm

@AnneNeville wrote:Just got back from my second viewing. This time, I took my husband and my mother.

I LOVED it this time.

My husband was disappointed and felt it was underwhelming and like every other movie of the last ten years.

My mom came out and immediately said, "Oh, sorry, honey that your theory was wrong. He's never going to be redeemed after killing that many people."

My head hurts.
@AnneNeville
Yikes! Haha.

Though Supreme "Rey left me" Kylo is not the outcome I would have gravitated to initially, I can't help but see it as the ideal twist now. I came to that conclusion on my second viewing. As much as "ronin" Kylo was cool in theory, there's not as much dramatic potential in it. Rian's twists allow the Force narrative to focus entirely on Rey and Kylo's light/dark drama and romantic coming-of-age going into IX. They are the story. Ronin Kylo would have relied a lot more heavily on a Snoke and Rey/Kylo villain dynamic, which, IMO, is not as interesting, engaging or exciting as the Rey and Kylo dynamic in its simplest form.

Furthermore it sets up the narrative for a solid and optimistic conclusion. Rey and Kylo ending VIII together would have made it unlikely for them to end IX the same way. Rian's story direction is very poetic and concise.

As far as I'm concerned this film goes huge lengths in making Kylo relatable and encouraging the audience to root for him to turn it around. That is redemption, at least in my eyes. He comes across as very human and sympathetic, even if he does ultimately f*** up again. He makes a few very honourable choices and develops his bond with Rey just enough to get the message across and define what their connection will be going forward.
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Re: The Last Jedi: Our Reviews and Reactions

Post by AnneNeville on Fri 22 Dec 2017, 10:38 pm

@FrolickingFizzgig

I agree. I'm just surprised by how different our reactions were.
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Re: The Last Jedi: Our Reviews and Reactions

Post by ISeeAnIsland on Fri 22 Dec 2017, 10:50 pm

@AnneNeville wrote:Just got back from my second viewing. This time, I took my husband and my mother.

I LOVED it this time.

My husband was disappointed and felt it was underwhelming and like every other movie of the last ten years.

My mom came out and immediately said, "Oh, sorry, honey that your theory was wrong. He's never going to be redeemed after killing that many people."

My head hurts.
@AnneNeville

How many people does he actually kill in TLJ, though? Outside of declaring himself Renporer, I thought that his "evil deeds" were far worse in TFA.

In TLJ, he blows up a hangar (killing a few Resistance members), kills his evil master and a few guards, and launches a highly unsuccessful attack on the Resistance where, as far as I could tell, few Resistance members were actually killed.

There's nothing on the level of the village slaughter or killing Han in TLJ.
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Re: The Last Jedi: Our Reviews and Reactions

Post by Saracene on Sat 23 Dec 2017, 3:37 am

Wow what a difference the second viewing makes! cheers I absolutely LOVED the movie and I would go so far as to say that it's overtaken ESB as my favourite SW film, though I will readily admit that ESB is a better and more consistent film overall. But hell, the stuff that I loved on the first viewing I loved even more, and things I was lukewarm on have improved so so dramatically.

- Canto Bight is still my least favourite part of the film, but I can live with it and Benicio del Toro's performance surprisingly won me over second time around. I still think that it could have ended after Rose, Finn and DJ escape the prison, without the stupid chase and the stable kids. You don't really need to set up the broomboi earlier in the film to show how Luke's last hurrah has inspired the downtrodden.

- I really really enjoyed Poe, his character arc and his clashes with Holdo; I look forward to him as the inevitable leader of the Resistance in Episode IX. After my first viewing, I was annoyed with the way his mutiny just ended with Leia and Holdo going, awww aren't these hotheaded young men precious, but I get it this time - they're just not interested in any kind of severe punishment. They see the potential in Poe and want to nurture it and knock some sense into him.

- I'd like to give a shoutout to the FO fleet commanders, who are played by some solid British character actors and feel like real grizzled war dogs who know their sith. You can tell they can't stand Hux lol.

- Paige makes such a strong impression in the little screentime she has - kudos to the actress.

- On my first viewing I felt like the Reylo scenes were too abrupt and the dynamic shift too sudden, but this issue has disappeared. I of course would still have loved more Force Skype scenes with our kids, but I do feel that all of their exchanges build upon each other. Also, I didn't realise the first time that when Rey suddenly starts to narrate the Endless Rey sequence, she's in fact talking to Kylo about it, I just thought, huh that's weird. And Rey is so obviously rattled by Kylo's topless look, tee hee. Platonic my a**.

- I did note that their scenes are very one-sided in terms of emotional openness, which I guess suits the characters. Rey is just all wear-my-heart-on-the-sleeve, while Kylo is a weird mix of emotionally unstable and emotionally constipated, and doesn't really give back much in terms of soul-baring. His vulnerable moments are all non-verbal except when he says that Rey is not a nobody to him, which is stilted and awkward in an almost Vulcan kind of way Laughing

- I'm a bit confused about the vision Kylo had; I would have presumed that it was a vision of Rey's parents, but in their earlier exchange he already says that her parents treated her like garbage. Was that just a lucky stab or did he already see her parents back when he was sifting through her mind in TFA? scratch I don't get it.

- Noticed a lot more of the little details, like Luke not leaving red traces on the salt surface, the way Kylo's glance turns to Snoke's body and the throne after the guards fight, the way he clenches his fist while giving orders to unleash everything they have on Luke.

- I know he needs to grow out of these eventually, but I'm sorry I do love it when our boy goes on his mega-tantrums because they're just so much fun Laughing BLOW THAT PIECE OF JUNK OUTTA THE SKY!!!!!

- I'm going to sound like a total cynic here, but I kinda rolled my eyes at Rose's "saving those we love, not destroying what we hate", thematic importance or not. Um sorry Rose, but have you by any chance read the script and known that everything is going to work out? Yes yes it's a beautiful message, but I bet my everything the Resistance is in fact going to spend a large chunk of the next film destroying what they hate. In fact, doesn't saving what you love often come down to destroying what you hate, like, I don't know, that lightspeed jump Holdo did just a short time ago? Sorry but not a fan of muddled pacifist messages.

Can't wait to watch the movie again next week, and then maybe in IMAX, and then maybe a couple more times Smile
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Re: The Last Jedi: Our Reviews and Reactions

Post by Reynak on Sat 23 Dec 2017, 4:08 am

I totally agree with you. I don’t usually like sentences spelling out what we as viewers should conclude after watching a scene, I only like this kind of sentences said by characters when they are subtle and less direct and not said immediately after the action that porvoqued them. This felt heavy handed and contradictory when you think of Holdo and Paige. Aren’t we meant to see their actions as heroic?

If she hadn’t said that, the message against acting like Poe did most of the movie would stll be there. I saw that sentence as very cheesy and didn’t like the kiss either because it lacked everything. It didn’t have to be passionate but it could have been shy, tentative and/full of promise. It was like a kiss from a little girl to a little boy in the playground. I don’t know if this was intentional but even if it was I didn’t like it because it fell flat. A kiss must have an effect on screen and this didn’t have any, I think it would have been better if she recovered consciousness later without the sentence and the kiss.


Last edited by Reynak on Sat 23 Dec 2017, 10:04 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: The Last Jedi: Our Reviews and Reactions

Post by Saracene on Sat 23 Dec 2017, 4:43 am

@Reynak wrote:I saw that sentence as verry cheesy and didn’t like the kiss either because it lacked everything. It didn’t have to be passionate but it could have been shy, tentative and/full of promise. It was like a kiss from a little girl to a little boy in the playground. I don’t know if this was intentional but even if it was I didn’t like it because it fell flat. A kiss must have an effect on screen and this didn’t have any, I think it would have been better if she recovered consciousness later without the sentence and the kiss.

@Reynak

I think that Finn and Rose are well-matched and have potential as a couple, but IMO that kiss was the sort of perfunctory blockbuster kiss that makes people roll their eyes at the mention of onscreen romance. Did absolutely nothing for me.
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Re: The Last Jedi: Our Reviews and Reactions

Post by Sacrebleu on Sat 23 Dec 2017, 5:03 am

@Saracene wrote:- Noticed a lot more of the little details, like Luke not leaving red traces on the salt surface, the way Kylo's glance turns to Snoke's body and the throne after the guards fight, the way he clenches his fist while giving orders to unleash everything they have on Luke.

- I know he needs to grow out of these eventually, but I'm sorry I do love it when our boy goes on his mega-tantrums because they're just so much fun Laughing BLOW THAT PIECE OF JUNK OUTTA THE SKY!!!!!

- I'm going to sound like a total cynic here, but I kinda rolled my eyes at Rose's "saving those we love, not destroying what we hate", thematic importance or not. Um sorry Rose, but have you by any chance read the script and known that everything is going to work out? Yes yes it's a beautiful message, but I bet my everything the Resistance is in fact going to spend a large chunk of the next film destroying what they hate. In fact, doesn't saving what you love often come down to destroying what you hate, like, I don't know, that lightspeed jump Holdo did just a short time ago? Sorry but not a fan of muddled pacifist messages.

Can't wait to watch the movie again next week, and then maybe in IMAX, and then maybe a couple more times Smile
@Saracene

I actually did notice Luke not leaving traces in the salt the first time I saw it.  I grabbed my cousin's arm and said, "Did you see that??"  But I did pick up things I missed at my second viewing.  I'm thinking of seeing it a third time this weekend in 3D IMAX.

I wanted to like Kelly Marie Tran's performance more than I did.  IMO Paige conveyed more, and conveyed it more effectively, in her limited screen time.  I wanted to like Canto Bight more than I did, though I liked D.J.'s character.

"Blow that piece of junk OUT OF THE SKY!" might be my favorite moment in all of Star Wars.  I'm shallow, I know.  Lolilol
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Re: The Last Jedi: Our Reviews and Reactions

Post by SkyStar on Sat 23 Dec 2017, 5:37 am

"Blow that piece of junk..." is also my favorite moment, as well as "DESTROY THAT LAST BOMBER!!!" I have been yelling these two for the past days and I think everyone is already tired of it. RIP Captain Canady, you competent man!!!!1
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Re: The Last Jedi: Our Reviews and Reactions

Post by Saracene on Sat 23 Dec 2017, 5:46 am

@SkyStar wrote:"Blow that piece of junk..." is also my favorite moment, as well as "DESTROY THAT LAST BOMBER!!!" I have been yelling these two for the past days and I think everyone is already tired of it. RIP Captain Canady, you competent man!!!!1
@SkyStar

I know right? I loved him Very Happy
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Re: The Last Jedi: Our Reviews and Reactions

Post by SkyStar on Sat 23 Dec 2017, 5:52 am

@Saracene wrote:
@SkyStar wrote:"Blow that piece of junk..." is also my favorite moment, as well as "DESTROY THAT LAST BOMBER!!!" I have been yelling these two for the past days and I think everyone is already tired of it. RIP Captain Canady, you competent man!!!!1
@SkyStar

I know right? I loved him Very Happy
@Saracene

He was too smart, so he had to go. Sad
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Re: The Last Jedi: Our Reviews and Reactions

Post by Darth_Awakened on Sat 23 Dec 2017, 5:55 am

@SkyStar wrote:"Blow that piece of junk..." is also my favorite moment, as well as "DESTROY THAT LAST BOMBER!!!" I have been yelling these two for the past days and I think everyone is already tired of it. RIP Captain Canady, you competent man!!!!1
@SkyStar

LOL at this.

There's this topic in TLJ hidden below the surface of "pew pew" and Force about young ambitious people in the workplace environment.

Not only with the obvious example with Canady and Hux, but it's more prominent with Poe and his two female bosses.

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Re: The Last Jedi: Our Reviews and Reactions

Post by motherofpearl1 on Sat 23 Dec 2017, 6:04 am

@ISeeAnIsland wrote:
@AnneNeville wrote:Just got back from my second viewing. This time, I took my husband and my mother.

I LOVED it this time.

My husband was disappointed and felt it was underwhelming and like every other movie of the last ten years.

My mom came out and immediately said, "Oh, sorry, honey that your theory was wrong. He's never going to be redeemed after killing that many people."

My head hurts.
@AnneNeville

How many people does he actually kill in TLJ, though? Outside of declaring himself Renporer, I thought that his "evil deeds" were far worse in TFA.

In TLJ, he blows up a hangar (killing a few Resistance members), kills his evil master and a few guards, and launches a highly unsuccessful attack on the Resistance where, as far as I could tell, few Resistance members were actually killed.

There's nothing on the level of the village slaughter or killing Han in TLJ.
@ISeeAnIsland

No, actually what he did was simply war, ugly and brutal, but the Resistance could be seen as the same, suicide bombing the dreadnought and so on. Even although having the villagers executed in TFA was terrible I still think that in Kylo's mind they were terrorists or insurgents, and he executed them as an example. I actually remember thinking, although not condoninig his actions, that they were supposed to be a peaceful settlement yet carried weapons. At the end of TLJ it was war - them or us. Kylo's behaviour was also that of someone who was both mentally ill and terribly hurt. The real sociopath and cold blooded murderer was Hux.
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Re: The Last Jedi: Our Reviews and Reactions

Post by SkyStar on Sat 23 Dec 2017, 6:28 am

@motherofpearl1 wrote:
@ISeeAnIsland wrote:
@AnneNeville wrote:Just got back from my second viewing. This time, I took my husband and my mother.

I LOVED it this time.

My husband was disappointed and felt it was underwhelming and like every other movie of the last ten years.

My mom came out and immediately said, "Oh, sorry, honey that your theory was wrong. He's never going to be redeemed after killing that many people."

My head hurts.
@AnneNeville

How many people does he actually kill in TLJ, though?  Outside of declaring himself Renporer, I thought that his "evil deeds" were far worse in TFA.

In TLJ, he blows up a hangar (killing a few Resistance members), kills his evil master and a few guards, and launches a highly unsuccessful attack on the Resistance where, as far as I could tell, few Resistance members were actually killed.

There's nothing on the level of the village slaughter or killing Han in TLJ.
@ISeeAnIsland

No, actually what he did was simply war, ugly and brutal, but the Resistance could be seen as the same, suicide bombing the dreadnought and so on. Even although having the villagers executed in TFA was terrible I still think that in Kylo's mind they were terrorists or insurgents, and he executed them as an example. I actually remember thinking, although not condoninig his actions, that they were supposed to be a peaceful settlement yet carried weapons. At the end of TLJ it was war - them or us. Kylo's behaviour was also that of someone who was both mentally ill and terribly hurt. The real sociopath and cold blooded murderer was Hux.
@motherofpearl1

I think it's not a coincidence that the throne room and Kylo helping Rey was at the same time when Hux slaps Finn, DJ is revealed to sell them out and Phasma orders to execute Finn and Rose. Where Hux and Phasma ar obviously behaving entitled and evil, Kylo with his act is something reversed and he wants Rey to join him. Here you can spot how different is Kylo from the other baddies in FO.
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Re: The Last Jedi: Our Reviews and Reactions

Post by FrolickingFizzgig on Sat 23 Dec 2017, 7:13 am

@Saracene wrote:Wow what a difference the second viewing makes! cheers I absolutely LOVED the movie and I would go so far as to say that it's overtaken ESB as my favourite SW film, though I will readily admit that ESB is a better and more consistent film overall. But hell, the stuff that I loved on the first viewing I loved even more, and things I was lukewarm on have improved so so dramatically.
@Saracene
Funny, this was exactly my experience with the film. I liked it the first time around but there was just so much going on that I couldn't take in everything and immerse myself in the story. Second viewing, though? It became one of my favourite films and will probably settle as my favourite SW film. There's just something about it. Everything clicked, right down to my own realization that Rey was talking to Kylo during her "voiceover" segment (I missed that the first time, too)!

I love the coming-of-age theme, I love the scenery and planets, I LOVE the romantic/sexual awakening theme (NEVER thought I'd see it done so blatantly and powerfully in SW of all places), the Rey and Kylo "hand" and Praetorian scenes are movie magic, jilted-lover Renperor is way too much fun and I even adore Rose and Canto Bight, and obviously Holdo. I'm lukewarm on Poe but Holdo saves his sequences for me.

As a 23-year-old I wasn't alive when Empire came out, but this film feels like my Empire. Goes to show how much Rian succeeded in my eyes.
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Re: The Last Jedi: Our Reviews and Reactions

Post by Saracene on Sat 23 Dec 2017, 7:24 am

A few other things I've noticed and didn't mention:

- They really toned down the Nazi parallels with the FO compared to TFA. I guess because Kylo has now taken over they don't want that association sticking around.

- I thought it was wonderful how, when Luke first sees R2, his voice gets more high-pitched for a second and it's like young Luke is peeking through.

- I could tell Kylo's voice was shaking just a tad when he was saying "I'll destroy her", like he's not just saying it in cold fury.

- Did they have that Resistance guy taste salt so that the audience knows it's salt and not snow? LOL

- I was pretty meh about the red guards before the release, but they won me over and I bought them as a serious threat. Plus, they're so striking in motion. I just love the amount of red in this movie. Loved Rey's primal roar during the fight.

- The battering ram thing they used to break the wall looks like a giant camera Smile

- Kylo's initial response to the force bond is such a guy response; Rey is fuming at him while he's trying to figure out the mechanics of how it all works.
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Re: The Last Jedi: Our Reviews and Reactions

Post by FrolickingFizzgig on Sat 23 Dec 2017, 8:40 am

@SkyStar
Your Avatar made me make a concept art connection.

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Re: The Last Jedi: Our Reviews and Reactions

Post by kassadin on Sat 23 Dec 2017, 8:56 am

@FrolickingFizzgig
That's a reference image, all concept artists use them Smile
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Re: The Last Jedi: Our Reviews and Reactions

Post by FrolickingFizzgig on Sat 23 Dec 2017, 9:01 am

@kassadin wrote:@FrolickingFizzgig
That's a reference image, all concept artists use them Smile
@kassadin
I know. I just thought it was cool because Adam compared Kylo to princess Yuki and there's concept art comparing Rey to that character too.
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Re: The Last Jedi: Our Reviews and Reactions

Post by motherofpearl1 on Sat 23 Dec 2017, 10:04 am

TLJ is my favourite SW film - and I'm an old OT fan. The more you watch it the more you appreciate it. The performances are top notch,the cinematography stunning - loved those distance shots of Skellig Island - and the pacing first rate. If there is anything I didn't like it's how Rey left Kylo without a backward glance after he killed his mentor for her. Fine if they are going to address the callousness of that in IX, but not if they thinks it's a sign of how noble Rolling Eyes Rey is. Personally I think it will be the former,because I vividly remember Daisy saying she 'doesn't think Rey will be a Jedi'.
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Re: The Last Jedi: Our Reviews and Reactions

Post by IoJovi on Sat 23 Dec 2017, 10:49 am

@motherofpearl1 wrote:TLJ is my favourite SW film - and I'm an old OT fan. The more you watch it the more you appreciate it. The performances are top notch,the cinematography stunning - loved those distance shots of Skellig Island - and the pacing first rate. If there is anything I didn't like it's how Rey left Kylo without a backward glance after he killed his mentor for her. Fine if they are going to address the callousness of that in IX, but not if they thinks it's a sign of how noble Rolling Eyes Rey is. Personally I think it will be the former,because I vividly remember Daisy saying she 'doesn't think Rey will be a Jedi'.
@motherofpearl1

I keep thinking back to how Rian talked about ambiguity and nuance in this film. If this movie were Transformers as in STTAIGHT UP GOOD VS EVIL, Kylo Ren would solely be in the wrong in that scene and we’d be hoping for Rey and the Resistance to finish him off. That isn’t what we’re getting though. On a deeper dive, his emotional breakdown is completely understandable - he killed his master and abuser to save her life, which she herself gave him the strength to do. He thought he had finally found someone who he could share a common ground with, and she then chooses the Resistance over him without a seeming second glance. That’s not to say Rey doesn’t have feelings for him - she clearly does but as of now they’re a jumbled mess. Ben also chose the throne over Rey in that moment, so neither one is without blame.
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Re: The Last Jedi: Our Reviews and Reactions

Post by Jakku on Sat 23 Dec 2017, 1:13 pm

I disagree about Ben's motivations when he killed Snoke. I don't think he did it wholly to save Rey - I think he had always wanted to usurp Snoke and at this point he knew he would have Rey's help to overcome the Praetorian Guards. But the Visual Dictionary makes clear that Kylo is ambitious and feels entitled to rule. He always intended to become Supreme Leader and take control of this mighty force that Snoke had assembled. And I think he thought the sudden arrival of Rey in his life was a sign that this was the right moment.

He wanted Rey to stay with him for more than one reason. Yes, she eases his loneliness and vice-versa. But she would also be a major power in opposition to him in future. He knew her weakness was her longing to belong and to matter to someone. He wasn't interested in calling off the pursuit of the Resistance, because if all those people were destroyed, Rey would be entirely alone and isolated. Except for him. It was cruel but cunning.

They both have different goals. He wants to impose order and tight control on the galaxy, and she wants the people she loves to be safe. Her mistake was to assume he'd want what she wanted once Snoke was gone, and his mistake was to assume that she'd be desperate enough to join him if he asked nicely.


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Re: The Last Jedi: Our Reviews and Reactions

Post by ISeeAnIsland on Sat 23 Dec 2017, 1:25 pm

@Saracene wrote:A few other things I've noticed and didn't mention:

- They really toned down the Nazi parallels with the FO compared to TFA. I guess because Kylo has now taken over they don't want that association sticking around.

- I thought it was wonderful how, when Luke first sees R2, his voice gets more high-pitched for a second and it's like young Luke is peeking through.

- I could tell Kylo's voice was shaking just a tad when he was saying "I'll destroy her", like he's not just saying it in cold fury.

- Did they have that Resistance guy taste salt so that the audience knows it's salt and not snow? LOL

- I was pretty meh about the red guards before the release, but they won me over and I bought them as a serious threat. Plus, they're so striking in motion. I just love the amount of red in this movie. Loved Rey's primal roar during the fight.

- The battering ram thing they used to break the wall looks like a giant camera Smile

- Kylo's initial response to the force bond is such a guy response; Rey is fuming at him while he's trying to figure out the mechanics of how it all works.
@Saracene

I love this observations, but especially the bolded. I couldn't put my finger on why I found that initial reaction so hilarious at first, but you nailed it.
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Re: The Last Jedi: Our Reviews and Reactions

Post by ZioRen on Sat 23 Dec 2017, 1:27 pm

@Jakku wrote:I disagree about Ben's motivations when he killed Snoke.  I don't think he did it wholly to save Rey - I think he had always wanted to usurp Snoke and at this point he knew he would have Rey's help to overcome the Praetorian Guards.  But the Visual Dictionary makes clear that Kylo is ambitious and feels entitled to rule. He always intended to become Supreme Leader and take control of this mighty force that Snoke had assembled.  And I think he thought the sudden arrival of Rey in his life was a sign that this was the right moment.

He wanted Rey to stay with him for more than one reason.  Yes, she eases his loneliness and vice-versa.  But she would also be a major power in opposition to him in future.  He knew her weakness was her longing to belong and to matter to someone.  He wasn't interested in calling off the pursuit of the Resistance, because if all those people were destroyed, Rey would be entirely alone and isolated.  Except for him.  It was cruel but cunning.

They both have different goals.  He wants to impose order and tight control on the galaxy, and she wants the people she loves to be safe.  Her mistake was to assume he'd want what she wanted once Snoke was gone, and his mistake was to assume that she'd be desperate enough to join him if he asked nicely.


@Jakku

I suppose that's an interpretation. It's certainly how antis see it (not calling you an anti, just saying it's an interpretation that isn't very flattering toward Kylo that can easily be made, so they make it) as well as audience members who came out thinking Kylo wasn't redeemable.

And I'm sure an element of this is true. But underneath the surface, I think that 'please' and that look Kylo gives Rey on his knees at the ending speak absolute volumes. Stronger than the cruel and ambitious elements of his motivations.

I will completely disagree about going after the Resistance being about isolating Rey. Kylo's issues with them extend far past anything with Rey. And I think he genuinely thought that when Rey learned the truth about her awful past, she would feel like him and want to burn it all to the ground. He thought their thoughts on the world would be in alignment.


Last edited by ZioRen on Sat 23 Dec 2017, 1:29 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: The Last Jedi: Our Reviews and Reactions

Post by FrolickingFizzgig on Sat 23 Dec 2017, 1:29 pm

@Jakku wrote:I disagree about Ben's motivations when he killed Snoke.  I don't think he did it wholly to save Rey - I think he had always wanted to usurp Snoke and at this point he knew he would have Rey's help to overcome the Praetorian Guards.  But the Visual Dictionary makes clear that Kylo is ambitious and feels entitled to rule. He always intended to become Supreme Leader and take control of this mighty force that Snoke had assembled.  And I think he thought the sudden arrival of Rey in his life was a sign that this was the right moment.

He wanted Rey to stay with him for more than one reason.  Yes, she eases his loneliness and vice-versa.  But she would also be a major power in opposition to him in future.  He knew her weakness was her longing to belong and to matter to someone.  He wasn't interested in calling off the pursuit of the Resistance, because if all those people were destroyed, Rey would be entirely alone and isolated.  Except for him.  It was cruel but cunning.

They both have different goals.  He wants to impose order and tight control on the galaxy, and she wants the people she loves to be safe.  Her mistake was to assume he'd want what she wanted once Snoke was gone, and his mistake was to assume that she'd be desperate enough to join him if he asked nicely.


@Jakku
IMO, the text doesn't really support Kylo wanting Rey for her powers. If they had a conversation about it, sure, but all we get is Kylo at the beginning of the film trying to look his best before Snoke, bowing and going on about how he gave everything to the dark side. We get Han telling Kylo that Snoke is only using him and Kylo backing away in denial. That denial seems to continue well into TLJ. There's no scene involving Kylo contemplating rulership or usurping Snoke. There's no scene of Kylo talking about Rey's powers. Instead, they comfort each other based on shared loneliness.

Kylo saw Rey's past in his vision and believed that she would want to destroy everything that caused the old world to crumble just like him. From his perspective they were both thrown away by the people who were meant to protect them. He wanted her to turn and stand with him, but he wasn't outright trying to manipulate her. It wasn't intentional cruelty. He genuinely believed that his vision would come true just as much as Rey believed hers would. It's likely all mixed up in his mind. Does he want power, doe she want Rey, does he want both?

Kylo is a very impetuous character. He was becoming disenfranchised with Snoke's teachings, but he really isn't all that cunning. Having ambition and engaging in strategic planning are not the same thing. Kylo has the former in spades and feels entitled to rule as a result of his birthright and Snoke's grooming, but his first reaction upon killing Snoke wasn't even to become Supreme Leader. He never wanted to actually replace Snoke, that happened in a fit of rage after he woke up. Instead he wanted to wipe out everything from the old world and build something new.

If the intention here was to portray Kylo's desire to usurp Snoke, take over the FO and become Supreme Leader all along (and he used Rey as a means to an end) they failed pretty miserably.

Also, if that was their intention you would think Rian and others would be talking about that and not about how they wanted the audience to relate to Rey and Kylo equally because they're both so lonely and found a means of easing that a little when they were together. They have different outlooks on life, but there was no element of Kylo using Rey in TLJ. There was no elaborate plan from Kylo. Did you see his reaction when Snoke tells him that he manipulated both of them? Yeah, no. The text, director and actors are all telling a different story and I'm going to have to side with them on this one.


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