The Last Jedi: Our Reviews and Reactions

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Re: The Last Jedi: Our Reviews and Reactions

Post by unicorn on Tue 26 Dec 2017, 4:29 pm

@LesCousinsDangereux The fact is, plotwise does probably nothing else work as same as good for the direction in which this trilogy goes, anyway. If Luke had maybe tried to talk with his nephew in time and BEFORE he had the short moment considering of beheading him (I see nothing in this direction, from nobody. Only that everyone watched this poor guy for years and thought "oooh, there´s darkness, everyone be cautious, maybe he will become Vader 2.0. Of course he feels betrayed from everyone at the end and of course the Sh*t will hit teh fan) - and imagine Luke or someone else would have been successfull: no drama, No ST.
So I understand at least the director´s decision for Luke´s behaviour at this point.


Last edited by unicorn on Tue 26 Dec 2017, 4:56 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: The Last Jedi: Our Reviews and Reactions

Post by unicorn on Tue 26 Dec 2017, 4:34 pm

@snufkin wrote:@unicorn - my first experience watching a movie (age 4) was seeing a French film with an English overdub. It was such a terrible dub, very broad slapstick comedy, that the experience stuck with me for life. Even in English and between those two actors, who speak different dialects of English from two very different parts of the world, they probably had to make adjustments for the meanings.
@snufkin

I´m not a fan of subtitles, it distracts me. I can eihter watch the movie or read the text. No abilty for multi-tasking. And normally I´m not that picky. But this thing is a no-go.
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Re: The Last Jedi: Our Reviews and Reactions

Post by LesCousinsDangereux on Tue 26 Dec 2017, 5:06 pm

@unicorn wrote:@LesCousinsDagereux The fact is, plotwise does probably nothing else work as same as good for the direction in which this trilogy goes. If he had maybe tried to talk with his nephew BEFORE he had the short moment considering of beheading him - and imagine he would have been successfull: no drama, No ST.
@unicorn

Erm, but he did. What would we think Luke was doing during the years he was teaching Ben and his other apprentices?! He would have talked to them repeatedly about the dark side and light, the dangers of the dark side, how and why they should avoid it, etc. ie all those things/lectures/advice that Obi-Wan and Yoda taught him (and add much more, as he had so much more time with them, than Luke himself did with either Obi-Wan or Yoda). But Ben did not listen (or rather, Snoke's influence was stronger). So what was Luke supposed to do? Tell him yet again "No Ben, dark side is bad. You should not want to become evil. Do not give in to anger, it leads to the dark side.Think how disappointed your father and mother would be" and Ben would be "Ok uncle, since you say so". That would not work. Sure, you could have the scenario where none of Luke's students is tempted (or even pushed by Snoke) to the dark side. But then we would not have a story. But once an apprentice starts falling to the dark side despite his master's teaching and advice, then that teacher cannot help him turn back to the light. As it seems he has very little influence (And Snoke has much more). And after considering killing him - and Ben catching him in the act - that was the point of no return, for Ben-Luke relationship.

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Re: The Last Jedi: Our Reviews and Reactions

Post by Moonjump05 on Tue 26 Dec 2017, 8:32 pm

So, I know I brought it up before that I am not sure if Kylo knows Leia survived her trip out to space, but I just was thinking that on the flip side does Leia know Kylo didn't shoot at her?

Kylo's wingmen fire and Leia almost had this... Defeated look. It would put her later conversation with Luke into context- she held out hope for so long, then Ben fired on her.

Maybe the novelization will expand on it.
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Re: The Last Jedi: Our Reviews and Reactions

Post by naberrie93 on Tue 26 Dec 2017, 10:37 pm

Hi guys! So nice to share my thoughts with you.

My review about this movie is simple: I love it. It was a step forward for Star Wars because we finally have something new, new capabilities with the Force, the development of new characters and beautiful moments that we are not going to see in other movie . And because is a good bye to Luke Skywalker too.

I had issues with TFA, it was a ANH rehash and so much nostalgy factor and mistery box. When I got out to the teather I was upset because I feel that in terms of storytelling, the NEW storytelling, it was leaving too much behind. Maybe for that reason people fell in a lot of red herrings. ReySky/ReySolo/FinnRey/SnokeBigBad/LukeTheShiningHero and go on...

I, like a lot of fanboys out there right now, I was mad about the "degradation" of Luke character, because what are the reasons to go hiding in a forsaken planet when the galaxy is falling apart? It has to be something BIG, because its send off the son of Anakin Skywalker into exile.

But now, that I know the reasons, I feel fine with it. I know why people are upset, I know... but we have to moving forward. For me, the arc of Luke, works very well and it is very human. He is not a kind of God, or Super Hero, he is human and he make mistakes. He is a heir of a mighty bloodline, son of Darth Vader/Anakin S, responsible of the risen of the new Jedi Order and the peace and justice in the galaxy... how much burden this boy took all his life? Maybe people are used to a idea of a heroe, flat characters that are always too good, perfects, who always take the right decisions and didn't have failures. I respect Rian's decision about Luke, he gave us a multilayered and deeply human character. Also, we had a redemption arc for Luke too in this movie. His last moments with Leia and his nephew are one of the best of the Star Wars Saga. It was amazing.

I wish people were more receptive about it, but its subjetive I guess. The Last Jedi is very profound and different from the others SW movie, maybe in the future people are going to appreciate it more? My only issues with the movie is its pacing, Phasma and some Poe lines.

Now, about the new characters, I saw something coming with Kylo and Rey, lol. Their dynamic is so powerful and they are so interesting together that they would carry this trilogy.

I love Kylo/Ben more, no wonder why Disney marketing keeps selling to us like a magnificent and unique character. He is the natural embodiment of the Skywalker legacy and the conflict of the family. His struggles between the dark and the light are like poetry! I was satisfased when I get Renperor, it feel natural that finally some Skywalker get what he wants in terms of power. It was about time. Course, only to realize that the only thing he needs is love. I'm looking forward for his redemption, really hoping he can survive this s*** and live happily with Rey.

I love Rey so much too, she is like a normal girl living a big adventure, and is very relatable too, because her past, her loneliness, she felt lost and she is looking for her place in this galaxy. I like how much different she is from Ben because her background, her personality... She is so feminine too. Some many things that become her dear to me.

I still can't believe how much Reylo we get in this movie, all of you guys were on the money. Their scenes are precious ... Looking forward for Episode IX.

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Re: The Last Jedi: Our Reviews and Reactions

Post by SoloSideCousin on Wed 27 Dec 2017, 12:49 am

@Moonjump05 wrote:So, I know I brought it up before that I am not sure if Kylo knows Leia survived her trip out to space, but I just was thinking that on the flip side does Leia know Kylo didn't shoot at her?

Kylo's wingmen fire and Leia almost had this... Defeated look. It would put her later conversation with Luke into context- she held out hope for so long, then Ben fired on her.

Maybe the novelization will expand on it.
@Moonjump05

I think that Leia thinks he shot her, and I think he thinks that Leia is dead.

He couldn't kill her before. Why would he suddenly be able to kill her on Crait? I know that he was having a breakdown on Crait, but he seemed upset when the Tie fighter shot the bridge. I also think that after Kylo killed Han and then after she thought he shot her, her bond with him was pretty messed up.

I think the realization that he did not try to kill her would have had some kind of effect for the planned Kylo/Leia scenes in IX.
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Re: The Last Jedi: Our Reviews and Reactions

Post by ISeeAnIsland on Wed 27 Dec 2017, 1:24 am

@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@Moonjump05 wrote:So, I know I brought it up before that I am not sure if Kylo knows Leia survived her trip out to space, but I just was thinking that on the flip side does Leia know Kylo didn't shoot at her?

Kylo's wingmen fire and Leia almost had this... Defeated look. It would put her later conversation with Luke into context- she held out hope for so long, then Ben fired on her.

Maybe the novelization will expand on it.
@Moonjump05

I think that Leia thinks he shot her, and I think he thinks that Leia is dead.

He couldn't kill her before. Why would he suddenly be able to kill her on Crait? I know that he was having a breakdown on Crait, but he seemed upset when the Tie fighter shot the bridge. I also think that after Kylo killed Han and then after she thought he shot her, her bond with him was pretty messed up.

I think the realization that he did not try to kill her would have had some kind of effect for the planned Kylo/Leia scenes in IX.
@SoloSideCousin

I'm also leaning towards him thinking that Leia was killed on the Raddus, and that seems to be the general consensus most places. I wish they would have included another shot of Kylo looking forlorn afterwards to drive that point home, but they didn't. I do think that had he been sure that his mother survived, we wouldn't have gotten that "No prisoners, no quarter!" line during the attack on Crait.

Did Leia think that Kylo fired on her? It makes absolute sense in her resignment on Crait, although I can't say that it occurred to me at all that she thought it was Kylo until that point. Again, this is where a shot/line or two of dialogue to clarify things would have gone a long way.
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Re: The Last Jedi: Our Reviews and Reactions

Post by Night Huntress on Wed 27 Dec 2017, 1:35 am

@SoloSideCousin wrote:
I think that Leia thinks he shot her, and I think he thinks that Leia is dead.


I agree- of course you can argue he should've felt through the force that she survived but so should he be able to feel Luke wasn't really on Crait- but he didn't. He is too distracted and conflicted to think straight. That's what I think...

@SoloSideCousin wrote:
He couldn't kill her before. Why would he suddenly be able to kill her on Crait? I know that he was having a breakdown on Crait,  but he seemed upset when the Tie fighter shot the bridge. I also think that after Kylo killed Han and then after she thought he shot her,  her bond with him was pretty messed up.

I think the realization that he did not try to kill her would have had some kind of effect for the planned Kylo/Leia scenes in IX.
@SoloSideCousin

Yes, exactly - I'm so curious how the handle Leia's character after Carrie passed away. I hope they recast her for the stories sake- but I think she will die off-screen. Crying or Very sad
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Re: The Last Jedi: Our Reviews and Reactions

Post by SoloSideCousin on Wed 27 Dec 2017, 1:50 am

@ISeeAnIsland wrote:
@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@Moonjump05 wrote:So, I know I brought it up before that I am not sure if Kylo knows Leia survived her trip out to space, but I just was thinking that on the flip side does Leia know Kylo didn't shoot at her?

Kylo's wingmen fire and Leia almost had this... Defeated look.  It would put her later conversation with Luke into context- she held out hope for so long, then Ben fired on her.

Maybe the novelization will expand on it.
@Moonjump05

I think that Leia thinks he shot her, and I think he thinks that Leia is dead.

He couldn't kill her before. Why would he suddenly be able to kill her on Crait? I know that he was having a breakdown on Crait,  but he seemed upset when the Tie fighter shot the bridge. I also think that after Kylo killed Han and then after she thought he shot her,  her bond with him was pretty messed up.

I think the realization that he did not try to kill her would have had some kind of effect for the planned Kylo/Leia scenes in IX.
@SoloSideCousin

I'm also leaning towards him thinking that Leia was killed on the Raddus, and that seems to be the general consensus most places. I wish they would have included another shot of Kylo looking forlorn afterwards to drive that point home, but they didn't.  I do think that had he been sure that his mother survived, we wouldn't have gotten that "No prisoners, no quarter!" line during the attack on Crait.

Did Leia think that Kylo fired on her?  It makes absolute sense in her resignment on Crait, although I can't say that it occurred to me at all that she thought it was Kylo until that point.  Again, this is where a shot/line or two of dialogue to clarify things would have gone a long way.
@ISeeAnIsland

I agree. But I think the lack of obvious reactions was probably intentional for both this Leia business and with Rey on the MF on the end. We definitely got hints (i.e. Leia looking upset right before the strike hits the bridge; Rey breathing quickly when she first sees Ben from the MF, but blink and she goes steely; Rey looking forlorn and by herself on the bench on the MF, but then Leia sits down and the look is gone.)

I am really starting to think that these are the little hints that they will build on in Episode IX. Like remember how JJ quickly cut from Kylo looking horrified that he killed Han, or how Rey's elevator eyes in the interrogation only lasted a second, or how Kylo's almost awestruck,  slight smiling "I see the island" quickly becomes moody because Han Solo comes up, the close ups and color changes on the cliff side, the quick stare across the ravine.

Moments like these completely telegraphed what was going to happen with Rey and Ben in VIII, but you needed to pay attention to see them.

People are saying Ben is irredeemable as he is kneeling like a penitent man at the end with seemingly "divine" light shining behind him. People think it's over for Ben and Rey when Leia says "We have everything we need," Kylo's exact line from TFA when he takes Rey.

On the "no quarter, no prisoners," I also totally agree. I don't think he thought Leia was in there, and he may have thought Rey was in the Falcon and off the scene and basically safe because he'd probably think she could handle TIEs.  So as far as he is concerned he is just going to take out a bunch of Poe Damerons and he doesn't have any qualms about that because he really does this the Resistance is as destructive as sith.
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Re: The Last Jedi: Our Reviews and Reactions

Post by ISeeAnIsland on Wed 27 Dec 2017, 1:54 am

@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@ISeeAnIsland wrote:
@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@Moonjump05 wrote:So, I know I brought it up before that I am not sure if Kylo knows Leia survived her trip out to space, but I just was thinking that on the flip side does Leia know Kylo didn't shoot at her?

Kylo's wingmen fire and Leia almost had this... Defeated look.  It would put her later conversation with Luke into context- she held out hope for so long, then Ben fired on her.

Maybe the novelization will expand on it.
@Moonjump05

I think that Leia thinks he shot her, and I think he thinks that Leia is dead.

He couldn't kill her before. Why would he suddenly be able to kill her on Crait? I know that he was having a breakdown on Crait,  but he seemed upset when the Tie fighter shot the bridge. I also think that after Kylo killed Han and then after she thought he shot her,  her bond with him was pretty messed up.

I think the realization that he did not try to kill her would have had some kind of effect for the planned Kylo/Leia scenes in IX.
@SoloSideCousin

I'm also leaning towards him thinking that Leia was killed on the Raddus, and that seems to be the general consensus most places. I wish they would have included another shot of Kylo looking forlorn afterwards to drive that point home, but they didn't.  I do think that had he been sure that his mother survived, we wouldn't have gotten that "No prisoners, no quarter!" line during the attack on Crait.

Did Leia think that Kylo fired on her?  It makes absolute sense in her resignment on Crait, although I can't say that it occurred to me at all that she thought it was Kylo until that point.  Again, this is where a shot/line or two of dialogue to clarify things would have gone a long way.
@ISeeAnIsland

I agree. But I think the lack of obvious reactions was probably intentional for both this Leia business and with Rey on the MF on the end. We definitely got hints (i.e. Leia looking upset right before the strike hits the bridge; Rey breathing quickly when she first sees Ben from the MF, but blink and she goes steely; Rey looking forlorn and by herself on the bench on the MF, but then Leia sits down and the look is gone.)

I am really starting to think that these are the little hints that they will build on in Episode IX. Like remember how JJ quickly cut from Kylo looking horrified that he killed Han, or how Rey's elevator eyes in the interrogation only lasted a second, or how Kylo's almost awestruck,  slight smiling "I see the island" quickly becomes moody because Han Solo comes up, the close ups and color changes on the cliff side, the quick stare across the ravine.

Moments like these completely telegraphed what was going to happen with Rey and Ben in VIII, but you needed to pay attention to see them.

People are saying Ben is irredeemable as he is kneeling like a penitent man at the end with seemingly "divine" light shining behind him. People think it's over for Ben and Rey when Leia says "We have everything we need," Kylo's exact line from TFA when he takes Rey.

On the "no quarter, no prisoners," I also totally agree. I don't think he thought Leia was in there, and he may have thought Rey was in the Falcon and off the scene and basically safe because he'd probably think she could handle TIEs.  So as far as he is concerned he is just going to take out a bunch of Poe Damerons and he doesn't have any qualms about that because he really does this the Resistance is as destructive as sith.
@SoloSideCousin

I don't know that Kylo had any idea where Rey was during the attack on Crait. The last he'd heard, Hux had told him that she'd stolen Snoke's shuttle (TFA callback: "She's going to steal a ship") and left the Supremacy. I'm not sure that he'd known that she'd hooked back up with Chewie and was in the Falcon at that point.
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Re: The Last Jedi: Our Reviews and Reactions

Post by Starliteprism on Wed 27 Dec 2017, 2:02 am

@Night Huntress wrote:
@SoloSideCousin wrote:
I think that Leia thinks he shot her, and I think he thinks that Leia is dead.


I agree- of course you can argue he should've felt through the force that she survived but so should he be able to feel Luke wasn't really on Crait- but he didn't. He is too distracted and conflicted to think straight. That's what I think...

@SoloSideCousin wrote:
He couldn't kill her before. Why would he suddenly be able to kill her on Crait? I know that he was having a breakdown on Crait,  but he seemed upset when the Tie fighter shot the bridge. I also think that after Kylo killed Han and then after she thought he shot her,  her bond with him was pretty messed up.

I think the realization that he did not try to kill her would have had some kind of effect for the planned Kylo/Leia scenes in IX.
@SoloSideCousin

Yes, exactly - I'm so curious how the handle Leia's character after Carrie passed away. I hope they recast her for the stories sake- but I think she will die off-screen. Crying or Very sad
@Night Huntress

Yes, definitely his emotions cloud his connections with family. I mean, he didn't even notice that Luke was the same as when he saw him last and what lightsaber Luke was using at the time. Then again, first time watch, I only remarked on his hair and that it appeared he had a haircut. Funny how Leia mentioned something about her hair. A sort of acknowledgement of the situation, which initially went over my head.

I can see the next movie doing a sort of scene in which Kylo Ren/Ben is all of a sudden aware of Leia and her passing, maybe she calls his name/says sorry, moves off to the next dimension, and then that prompts him to reach out/or opens a moment of vulnerability in either him and or Rey as a result and connection is up and running.
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Re: The Last Jedi: Our Reviews and Reactions

Post by Cowgirlsamurai on Wed 27 Dec 2017, 6:34 am

@ISeeAnIsland wrote:
@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@ISeeAnIsland wrote:
@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@Moonjump05 wrote:So, I know I brought it up before that I am not sure if Kylo knows Leia survived her trip out to space, but I just was thinking that on the flip side does Leia know Kylo didn't shoot at her?

Kylo's wingmen fire and Leia almost had this... Defeated look.  It would put her later conversation with Luke into context- she held out hope for so long, then Ben fired on her.

Maybe the novelization will expand on it.
@Moonjump05

I think that Leia thinks he shot her, and I think he thinks that Leia is dead.

He couldn't kill her before. Why would he suddenly be able to kill her on Crait? I know that he was having a breakdown on Crait,  but he seemed upset when the Tie fighter shot the bridge. I also think that after Kylo killed Han and then after she thought he shot her,  her bond with him was pretty messed up.

I think the realization that he did not try to kill her would have had some kind of effect for the planned Kylo/Leia scenes in IX.
@SoloSideCousin

I'm also leaning towards him thinking that Leia was killed on the Raddus, and that seems to be the general consensus most places. I wish they would have included another shot of Kylo looking forlorn afterwards to drive that point home, but they didn't.  I do think that had he been sure that his mother survived, we wouldn't have gotten that "No prisoners, no quarter!" line during the attack on Crait.

Did Leia think that Kylo fired on her?  It makes absolute sense in her resignment on Crait, although I can't say that it occurred to me at all that she thought it was Kylo until that point.  Again, this is where a shot/line or two of dialogue to clarify things would have gone a long way.
@ISeeAnIsland

I agree. But I think the lack of obvious reactions was probably intentional for both this Leia business and with Rey on the MF on the end. We definitely got hints (i.e. Leia looking upset right before the strike hits the bridge; Rey breathing quickly when she first sees Ben from the MF, but blink and she goes steely; Rey looking forlorn and by herself on the bench on the MF, but then Leia sits down and the look is gone.)

I am really starting to think that these are the little hints that they will build on in Episode IX. Like remember how JJ quickly cut from Kylo looking horrified that he killed Han, or how Rey's elevator eyes in the interrogation only lasted a second, or how Kylo's almost awestruck,  slight smiling "I see the island" quickly becomes moody because Han Solo comes up, the close ups and color changes on the cliff side, the quick stare across the ravine.

Moments like these completely telegraphed what was going to happen with Rey and Ben in VIII, but you needed to pay attention to see them.

People are saying Ben is irredeemable as he is kneeling like a penitent man at the end with seemingly "divine" light shining behind him. People think it's over for Ben and Rey when Leia says "We have everything we need," Kylo's exact line from TFA when he takes Rey.

On the "no quarter, no prisoners," I also totally agree. I don't think he thought Leia was in there, and he may have thought Rey was in the Falcon and off the scene and basically safe because he'd probably think she could handle TIEs.  So as far as he is concerned he is just going to take out a bunch of Poe Damerons and he doesn't have any qualms about that because he really does this the Resistance is as destructive as sith.
@SoloSideCousin

I don't know that Kylo had any idea where Rey was during the attack on Crait. The last he'd heard, Hux had told him that she'd stolen Snoke's shuttle (TFA callback: "She's going to steal a ship") and left the Supremacy. I'm not sure that he'd known that she'd hooked back up with Chewie and was in the Falcon at that point.
@ISeeAnIsland

Except that he tells Hux in the throne room, “We know where she’s going,” and then they head to Crait. I don’t know if he thinks she’s in the base (“Push through” “No prisoners”) or on the Falcon (Blow that piece of junk out of the sky!”), but either way, he seems ok with killing her during the attack. It’s not until he sees her boarding the Falcon that the puppy eyes return. It all still kind of bothers me when I watch that scene.
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Re: The Last Jedi: Our Reviews and Reactions

Post by Rei of Sunshine on Wed 27 Dec 2017, 7:18 am

@Cowgirlsamurai wrote:
@ISeeAnIsland wrote:
@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@ISeeAnIsland wrote:
@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@Moonjump05 wrote:So, I know I brought it up before that I am not sure if Kylo knows Leia survived her trip out to space, but I just was thinking that on the flip side does Leia know Kylo didn't shoot at her?

Kylo's wingmen fire and Leia almost had this... Defeated look.  It would put her later conversation with Luke into context- she held out hope for so long, then Ben fired on her.

Maybe the novelization will expand on it.
@Moonjump05

I think that Leia thinks he shot her, and I think he thinks that Leia is dead.

He couldn't kill her before. Why would he suddenly be able to kill her on Crait? I know that he was having a breakdown on Crait,  but he seemed upset when the Tie fighter shot the bridge. I also think that after Kylo killed Han and then after she thought he shot her,  her bond with him was pretty messed up.

I think the realization that he did not try to kill her would have had some kind of effect for the planned Kylo/Leia scenes in IX.
@SoloSideCousin

I'm also leaning towards him thinking that Leia was killed on the Raddus, and that seems to be the general consensus most places. I wish they would have included another shot of Kylo looking forlorn afterwards to drive that point home, but they didn't.  I do think that had he been sure that his mother survived, we wouldn't have gotten that "No prisoners, no quarter!" line during the attack on Crait.

Did Leia think that Kylo fired on her?  It makes absolute sense in her resignment on Crait, although I can't say that it occurred to me at all that she thought it was Kylo until that point.  Again, this is where a shot/line or two of dialogue to clarify things would have gone a long way.
@ISeeAnIsland

I agree. But I think the lack of obvious reactions was probably intentional for both this Leia business and with Rey on the MF on the end. We definitely got hints (i.e. Leia looking upset right before the strike hits the bridge; Rey breathing quickly when she first sees Ben from the MF, but blink and she goes steely; Rey looking forlorn and by herself on the bench on the MF, but then Leia sits down and the look is gone.)

I am really starting to think that these are the little hints that they will build on in Episode IX. Like remember how JJ quickly cut from Kylo looking horrified that he killed Han, or how Rey's elevator eyes in the interrogation only lasted a second, or how Kylo's almost awestruck,  slight smiling "I see the island" quickly becomes moody because Han Solo comes up, the close ups and color changes on the cliff side, the quick stare across the ravine.

Moments like these completely telegraphed what was going to happen with Rey and Ben in VIII, but you needed to pay attention to see them.

People are saying Ben is irredeemable as he is kneeling like a penitent man at the end with seemingly "divine" light shining behind him. People think it's over for Ben and Rey when Leia says "We have everything we need," Kylo's exact line from TFA when he takes Rey.

On the "no quarter, no prisoners," I also totally agree. I don't think he thought Leia was in there, and he may have thought Rey was in the Falcon and off the scene and basically safe because he'd probably think she could handle TIEs.  So as far as he is concerned he is just going to take out a bunch of Poe Damerons and he doesn't have any qualms about that because he really does this the Resistance is as destructive as sith.
@SoloSideCousin

I don't know that Kylo had any idea where Rey was during the attack on Crait. The last he'd heard, Hux had told him that she'd stolen Snoke's shuttle (TFA callback: "She's going to steal a ship") and left the Supremacy. I'm not sure that he'd known that she'd hooked back up with Chewie and was in the Falcon at that point.
@ISeeAnIsland

Except that he tells Hux in the throne room, “We know where she’s going,” and then they head to Crait. I don’t know if he thinks she’s in the base (“Push through” “No prisoners”) or on the Falcon (Blow that piece of junk out of the sky!”), but either way, he seems ok with killing her during the attack. It’s not until he sees her boarding the Falcon that the puppy eyes return. It all still kind of bothers me when I watch that scene.
@Cowgirlsamurai

When my boyfriend cheated on me back when I was 17 I threatened to run him over and burn his house down.

Now considering I was a teenager and Ben's mental age is also probably a teen, then I can get why he did that.
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Re: The Last Jedi: Our Reviews and Reactions

Post by Cowgirlsamurai on Wed 27 Dec 2017, 7:53 am

@Rei of Sunshine wrote:
@Cowgirlsamurai wrote:
@ISeeAnIsland wrote:
@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@ISeeAnIsland wrote:
@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@Moonjump05 wrote:So, I know I brought it up before that I am not sure if Kylo knows Leia survived her trip out to space, but I just was thinking that on the flip side does Leia know Kylo didn't shoot at her?

Kylo's wingmen fire and Leia almost had this... Defeated look.  It would put her later conversation with Luke into context- she held out hope for so long, then Ben fired on her.

Maybe the novelization will expand on it.
@Moonjump05

I think that Leia thinks he shot her, and I think he thinks that Leia is dead.

He couldn't kill her before. Why would he suddenly be able to kill her on Crait? I know that he was having a breakdown on Crait,  but he seemed upset when the Tie fighter shot the bridge. I also think that after Kylo killed Han and then after she thought he shot her,  her bond with him was pretty messed up.

I think the realization that he did not try to kill her would have had some kind of effect for the planned Kylo/Leia scenes in IX.
@SoloSideCousin

I'm also leaning towards him thinking that Leia was killed on the Raddus, and that seems to be the general consensus most places. I wish they would have included another shot of Kylo looking forlorn afterwards to drive that point home, but they didn't.  I do think that had he been sure that his mother survived, we wouldn't have gotten that "No prisoners, no quarter!" line during the attack on Crait.

Did Leia think that Kylo fired on her?  It makes absolute sense in her resignment on Crait, although I can't say that it occurred to me at all that she thought it was Kylo until that point.  Again, this is where a shot/line or two of dialogue to clarify things would have gone a long way.
@ISeeAnIsland

I agree. But I think the lack of obvious reactions was probably intentional for both this Leia business and with Rey on the MF on the end. We definitely got hints (i.e. Leia looking upset right before the strike hits the bridge; Rey breathing quickly when she first sees Ben from the MF, but blink and she goes steely; Rey looking forlorn and by herself on the bench on the MF, but then Leia sits down and the look is gone.)

I am really starting to think that these are the little hints that they will build on in Episode IX. Like remember how JJ quickly cut from Kylo looking horrified that he killed Han, or how Rey's elevator eyes in the interrogation only lasted a second, or how Kylo's almost awestruck,  slight smiling "I see the island" quickly becomes moody because Han Solo comes up, the close ups and color changes on the cliff side, the quick stare across the ravine.

Moments like these completely telegraphed what was going to happen with Rey and Ben in VIII, but you needed to pay attention to see them.

People are saying Ben is irredeemable as he is kneeling like a penitent man at the end with seemingly "divine" light shining behind him. People think it's over for Ben and Rey when Leia says "We have everything we need," Kylo's exact line from TFA when he takes Rey.

On the "no quarter, no prisoners," I also totally agree. I don't think he thought Leia was in there, and he may have thought Rey was in the Falcon and off the scene and basically safe because he'd probably think she could handle TIEs.  So as far as he is concerned he is just going to take out a bunch of Poe Damerons and he doesn't have any qualms about that because he really does this the Resistance is as destructive as sith.
@SoloSideCousin

I don't know that Kylo had any idea where Rey was during the attack on Crait. The last he'd heard, Hux had told him that she'd stolen Snoke's shuttle (TFA callback: "She's going to steal a ship") and left the Supremacy. I'm not sure that he'd known that she'd hooked back up with Chewie and was in the Falcon at that point.
@ISeeAnIsland

Except that he tells Hux in the throne room, “We know where she’s going,” and then they head to Crait. I don’t know if he thinks she’s in the base (“Push through” “No prisoners”) or on the Falcon (Blow that piece of junk out of the sky!”), but either way, he seems ok with killing her during the attack. It’s not until he sees her boarding the Falcon that the puppy eyes return. It all still kind of bothers me when I watch that scene.
@Cowgirlsamurai

When my boyfriend cheated on me back when I was 17 I threatened to run him over and burn his house down.

Now considering I was a teenager and Ben's mental age is also probably a teen, then I can get why he did that.
@Rei of Sunshine

He’s definitely the rejected lover hell bent on taking out his ex and her new man (the Resistance). It’s hard to watch.


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Re: The Last Jedi: Our Reviews and Reactions

Post by Rei of Sunshine on Wed 27 Dec 2017, 7:59 am

@Cowgirlsamurai wrote:
@Rei of Sunshine wrote:
@Cowgirlsamurai wrote:
@ISeeAnIsland wrote:
@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@ISeeAnIsland wrote:
@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@Moonjump05 wrote:So, I know I brought it up before that I am not sure if Kylo knows Leia survived her trip out to space, but I just was thinking that on the flip side does Leia know Kylo didn't shoot at her?

Kylo's wingmen fire and Leia almost had this... Defeated look.  It would put her later conversation with Luke into context- she held out hope for so long, then Ben fired on her.

Maybe the novelization will expand on it.
@Moonjump05

I think that Leia thinks he shot her, and I think he thinks that Leia is dead.

He couldn't kill her before. Why would he suddenly be able to kill her on Crait? I know that he was having a breakdown on Crait,  but he seemed upset when the Tie fighter shot the bridge. I also think that after Kylo killed Han and then after she thought he shot her,  her bond with him was pretty messed up.

I think the realization that he did not try to kill her would have had some kind of effect for the planned Kylo/Leia scenes in IX.
@SoloSideCousin

I'm also leaning towards him thinking that Leia was killed on the Raddus, and that seems to be the general consensus most places. I wish they would have included another shot of Kylo looking forlorn afterwards to drive that point home, but they didn't.  I do think that had he been sure that his mother survived, we wouldn't have gotten that "No prisoners, no quarter!" line during the attack on Crait.

Did Leia think that Kylo fired on her?  It makes absolute sense in her resignment on Crait, although I can't say that it occurred to me at all that she thought it was Kylo until that point.  Again, this is where a shot/line or two of dialogue to clarify things would have gone a long way.
@ISeeAnIsland

I agree. But I think the lack of obvious reactions was probably intentional for both this Leia business and with Rey on the MF on the end. We definitely got hints (i.e. Leia looking upset right before the strike hits the bridge; Rey breathing quickly when she first sees Ben from the MF, but blink and she goes steely; Rey looking forlorn and by herself on the bench on the MF, but then Leia sits down and the look is gone.)

I am really starting to think that these are the little hints that they will build on in Episode IX. Like remember how JJ quickly cut from Kylo looking horrified that he killed Han, or how Rey's elevator eyes in the interrogation only lasted a second, or how Kylo's almost awestruck,  slight smiling "I see the island" quickly becomes moody because Han Solo comes up, the close ups and color changes on the cliff side, the quick stare across the ravine.

Moments like these completely telegraphed what was going to happen with Rey and Ben in VIII, but you needed to pay attention to see them.

People are saying Ben is irredeemable as he is kneeling like a penitent man at the end with seemingly "divine" light shining behind him. People think it's over for Ben and Rey when Leia says "We have everything we need," Kylo's exact line from TFA when he takes Rey.

On the "no quarter, no prisoners," I also totally agree. I don't think he thought Leia was in there, and he may have thought Rey was in the Falcon and off the scene and basically safe because he'd probably think she could handle TIEs.  So as far as he is concerned he is just going to take out a bunch of Poe Damerons and he doesn't have any qualms about that because he really does this the Resistance is as destructive as sith.
@SoloSideCousin

I don't know that Kylo had any idea where Rey was during the attack on Crait. The last he'd heard, Hux had told him that she'd stolen Snoke's shuttle (TFA callback: "She's going to steal a ship") and left the Supremacy. I'm not sure that he'd known that she'd hooked back up with Chewie and was in the Falcon at that point.
@ISeeAnIsland

Except that he tells Hux in the throne room, “We know where she’s going,” and then they head to Crait. I don’t know if he thinks she’s in the base (“Push through” “No prisoners”) or on the Falcon (Blow that piece of junk out of the sky!”), but either way, he seems ok with killing her during the attack. It’s not until he sees her boarding the Falcon that the puppy eyes return. It all still kind of bothers me when I watch that scene.
@Cowgirlsamurai

When my boyfriend cheated on me back when I was 17 I threatened to run him over and burn his house down.

Now considering I was a teenager and Ben's mental age is also probably a teen, then I can get why he did that.
@Rei of Sunshine

He’s definitely the rejected lover hell bent on taking out his ex and her new man (the Resistance). It’s hard to watch.


@Cowgirlsamurai

When Rian said that we'd relate to Ben, I didn't think he'd mean like this.

Honestly tho. I was so pissed back then. I stalked the new girl through her FB account. I found out where she lived, where she went to school, her course program, her clubs, and where he parents worked. I also found out that she was adopted from her parents relatives. And without even following them, I found out where she and my boyfriend go on dates. I also found out that she was cheating on him. hahah

Long story short, he went back to me and I didn't have to live up to my threats.

See if 17 yr old me was this crazy, imagine poor lil Ben.

Also if Poe makes a move on Rey, consider it done that his home planet will probably get blown up. Or that he'll get castrated with the crossguard saber.
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Re: The Last Jedi: Our Reviews and Reactions

Post by ISeeAnIsland on Wed 27 Dec 2017, 1:25 pm

@Cowgirlsamurai wrote:
@ISeeAnIsland wrote:

I don't know that Kylo had any idea where Rey was during the attack on Crait. The last he'd heard, Hux had told him that she'd stolen Snoke's shuttle (TFA callback: "She's going to steal a ship") and left the Supremacy.  I'm not sure that he'd known that she'd hooked back up with Chewie and was in the Falcon at that point.
@ISeeAnIsland

Except that he tells Hux in the throne room, “We know where she’s going,” and then they head to Crait. I don’t know if he thinks she’s in the base (“Push through” “No prisoners”) or on the Falcon (Blow that piece of junk out of the sky!”), but either way, he seems ok with killing her during the attack. It’s not until he sees her boarding the Falcon that the puppy eyes return. It all still kind of bothers me when I watch that scene.
@Cowgirlsamurai

That's a fair point. I did flinch a little at that bit the first time that I watched the movie, although overall, I took it as more of a vague threat stated in  moment of pure rage.  I had in my head that if they had gotten through the door and Kylo saw Rey inside with the rest of the Resistance, he'd never be able to actually hurt her (or Leia).

ETA: Remember, a lot of us were expecting Kylo to show up on Ahch-To raging like a spurned lover, after Rey's rejection at the end of TFA. I look at Kylo's rage in the Crait battle as similar (and marginally more warranted) to what we were already expecting, before we got all of the "broken puppy" Kylo marketing and back when most of us were still thinking that Kylo would physically go to Ahch-To.
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Re: The Last Jedi: Our Reviews and Reactions

Post by FrolickingFizzgig on Wed 27 Dec 2017, 1:44 pm

@ISeeAnIsland wrote:
@Cowgirlsamurai wrote:
@ISeeAnIsland wrote:

I don't know that Kylo had any idea where Rey was during the attack on Crait. The last he'd heard, Hux had told him that she'd stolen Snoke's shuttle (TFA callback: "She's going to steal a ship") and left the Supremacy.  I'm not sure that he'd known that she'd hooked back up with Chewie and was in the Falcon at that point.
@ISeeAnIsland

Except that he tells Hux in the throne room, “We know where she’s going,” and then they head to Crait. I don’t know if he thinks she’s in the base (“Push through” “No prisoners”) or on the Falcon (Blow that piece of junk out of the sky!”), but either way, he seems ok with killing her during the attack. It’s not until he sees her boarding the Falcon that the puppy eyes return. It all still kind of bothers me when I watch that scene.
@Cowgirlsamurai

That's a fair point. I did flinch a little at that bit the first time that I watched the movie, although overall, I took it as more of a vague threat stated in  moment of pure rage.  I had in my head that if they had gotten through the door and Kylo saw Rey inside with the rest of the Resistance, he'd never be able to actually hurt her (or Leia).  
@ISeeAnIsland
I mostly find it amusing because Kylo's so extra. In another story it would be even more ridiculous, but it's perfect for SW and for Kylo. They play him off Hux so you don't take what he does or says too seriously. Hux questions him and tries to get around him because he isn't thinking clearly at all, just screeching orders, making threats, wasting artillery and losing his mind. He's like a cat with a wand toy, completely fixated on destroying the source of his hurt at all costs. That's what Kylo does when he cares too much about something (see: the snow fight for another example).

Kylo's all talk in the end anyway. Luke makes sure of that. After he screams for several minutes he's back on the floor regretting everything but unable to admit it.

I'm more with @Snufkin because it's all a crazy family reunion with everybody watching like ???
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Re: The Last Jedi: Our Reviews and Reactions

Post by Cowgirlsamurai on Wed 27 Dec 2017, 1:50 pm

@ISeeAnIsland wrote:
@Cowgirlsamurai wrote:
@ISeeAnIsland wrote:

I don't know that Kylo had any idea where Rey was during the attack on Crait. The last he'd heard, Hux had told him that she'd stolen Snoke's shuttle (TFA callback: "She's going to steal a ship") and left the Supremacy.  I'm not sure that he'd known that she'd hooked back up with Chewie and was in the Falcon at that point.
@ISeeAnIsland

Except that he tells Hux in the throne room, “We know where she’s going,” and then they head to Crait. I don’t know if he thinks she’s in the base (“Push through” “No prisoners”) or on the Falcon (Blow that piece of junk out of the sky!”), but either way, he seems ok with killing her during the attack. It’s not until he sees her boarding the Falcon that the puppy eyes return. It all still kind of bothers me when I watch that scene.
@Cowgirlsamurai

That's a fair point. I did flinch a little at that bit the first time that I watched the movie, although overall, I took it as more of a vague threat stated in  moment of pure rage.  I had in my head that if they had gotten through the door and Kylo saw Rey inside with the rest of the Resistance, he'd never be able to actually hurt her (or Leia).  
@ISeeAnIsland

Well, when he says, “We know where she’s going,” my first thought was that he’d try to kidnap her again, so I was kinda shocked that he went for the kill everyone approach. But I think it was kind of an “out of sight, out of mind,” thing where he wouldn’t do it himself, but didn’t care if she got caught up in the general attack... I mean “no prisoners” means he wants the military to go in and destroy everyone, right?

Maybe at the end when he gives her the sad eyes, he’s over the rage and relieved that she’s alive? She has a right to be pissed, I guess, because she could’ve just been killed. She not only left him alive in the throne room, but I don’t recall the Falcon firing on his shuttle during the battle... Whenever I think about it like that, I’m not so mad at Rey in the end.

Sorry for the rambling, most of this is just my thought process. And yes, there’s definitely humor to Kylo’s actions in that scene that I love, so i guess we aren’t meant to think too much about his evil intentions Laughing
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Re: The Last Jedi: Our Reviews and Reactions

Post by snufkin on Wed 27 Dec 2017, 3:22 pm

@FrolickingFizzgig - I had my fingers over my eyes for part of it because it was so painful to watch. Like the scene in Ladybird where the mother is upset about the father getting laid off and the family finances. So she takes it out on the daughter by yelling at her for not hanging up her school uniform. That's how I felt watching it, especially after we learn what Luke did to Ben

And yes, during the first screening I saw, I remembered how ESB and the assault on Hoth is basically two kids trying to ditch their a**hole biological father. Who's determined to connect with them and have a relationship whether they like it or not. In this scenario, Ben's gone off the deep end because his girlfriend breaks up with him because she's not down with where he thinks their relationship should go. And then goes to talk to his mother, who he's on the outs with. And then the showdown with Luke? Both sides have to be sitting there watching them and realizing on some level they're just backup for an ugly family get together.

The VD does mention that the Battle of Crait was lost due to his inability to handle his emotions. So that's something to keep an eye on at the beginning of IX, when they first show him post-Crait and post-Rey breaking up with him.
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Re: The Last Jedi: Our Reviews and Reactions

Post by Night Huntress on Wed 27 Dec 2017, 5:37 pm

@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:
I mostly find it amusing because Kylo's so extra. In another story it would be even more ridiculous, but it's perfect for SW and for Kylo. They play him off Hux so you don't take what he does or says too seriously. Hux questions him and tries to get around him because he isn't thinking clearly at all, just screeching orders, making threats, wasting artillery and losing his mind. He's like a cat with a wand toy, completely fixated on destroying the source of his hurt at all costs. That's what Kylo does when he cares too much about something (see: the snow fight for another example).

Kylo's all talk in the end anyway. Luke makes sure of that. After he screams for several minutes he's back on the floor regretting everything but unable to admit it.

I'm more with @Snufkin because it's all a crazy family reunion with everybody watching like ???
@FrolickingFizzgig

Maybe it's just me reading too much into it- but I have the feeling Ben has issues with feelings like love and affection in general and absolutely can't deal with heart ache- he can't deal with it to the point where he want's to destroy it's source. Just like with Han in TFA and now Rey in TLJ (maybe even that creepy Snoke figure)... they caused him pain and the only solution he knows is to kill them. Something in his mind is just twisted and he must learn that pain & heart ache are part of the deal. If you care for people you can get hurt... you make yourself vulnerable.
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Re: The Last Jedi: Our Reviews and Reactions

Post by vaderito on Thu 28 Dec 2017, 10:06 am

I just want to say that, in movies, intent without a result means nothing. If you yell "blow that piece of junk out of the sky" and "no prisoners" and strike an astral projection, that has no meaning cause it doesn't result in anything bad. And that's how casual audience sees it and that's how LF sees it too. So you'll have antis hung up on that Kylo wanted to blow up MF and take no prisoners and swing his saber at Luke, but those are non-issues with LF. cause if LF wanted to make him look bad, he would have him kill Luke or Leia or Rey or all. But they didn't. In fact, Astral Luke is an invention that prevented him from killing Luke.

So there's no point to get hung up on threats without result (and no, faceless redshirts don't count cause #no1curr) since they are non-issues. All that matters is that Kylo killed Snoke (good) and is the Supremere Leader (bad-ish). And that's much better place then where he was in TFA when he killed Han (baaaaaaaaaaaaaaad).
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Re: The Last Jedi: Our Reviews and Reactions

Post by IoJovi on Thu 28 Dec 2017, 10:21 am

@vaderito wrote:I just want to say that, in movies, intent without a result means nothing. If you yell "blow that piece of junk out of the sky" and "no prisoners" and strike an astral projection, that has no meaning cause it doesn't result in anything bad. And that's how casual audience sees it and that's how LF sees it too. So you'll have antis hung up on that Kylo wanted to blow up MF and take no prisoners and swing his saber at Luke, but those are non-issues with LF. cause if LF wanted to make him look bad, he would have him kill Luke or Leia or Rey or all. But they didn't. In fact, Astral Luke is an invention that prevented him from killing Luke.

So there's no point to get hung up on threats without result (and no, faceless redshirts don't count cause #no1curr) since they are non-issues. All that matters is that Kylo killed Snoke (good) and is the Supremere Leader (bad-ish). And that's much better place then where he was in TFA when he killed Han (baaaaaaaaaaaaaaad).
@vaderito

Exactly, and that's why THE only thing that was addressed as far as Ben's crimes go was the murder of Han.  That's something that's had a lasting effect on everyone, most of all Ben himself.  The tree, Finn being incapacitated, Rey being abducted, it all means nothing because nothing permanent or truly terrible came out of it.  It was forgotten, never to be mentioned again.  The same will go with Kylo's empty threats on Crait.  What DOES matter though is his regretful and sorrowful look at the end when the Force Bond is reopened once more.
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Re: The Last Jedi: Our Reviews and Reactions

Post by vaderito on Thu 28 Dec 2017, 10:30 am

@IoJovi wrote:

Exactly, and that's why THE only thing that was addressed as far as Ben's crimes go was the murder of Han.  That's something that's had a lasting effect on everyone, most of all Ben himself.  The tree, Finn being incapacitated, Rey being abducted, it all means nothing because nothing permanent or truly terrible came out of it.  It was forgotten, never to be mentioned again.  The same will go with Kylo's empty threats on Crait.  What DOES matter though is his regretful and sorrowful look at the end when the Force Bond is reopened once more.
@IoJovi

This. If the movie doesn't bother, why should anyone else? It's something for nitpickers, sure, but majority of the audience isn't invested enough to nitpick. They are either entertained or they are not. That's all.


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Re: The Last Jedi: Our Reviews and Reactions

Post by PalmettoBlue on Thu 28 Dec 2017, 10:32 am

I thought that Leia knew he didn’t fire on her and that was, in part, her gut-level motivation to go on...to save herself. If he had fired on her, then I think she’d have just let go.
Her talk at the end was just that - talk. She was at her lowest - none of her allies cared and she was done. She needed to be reminded that hope burns eternal. And Luke did that on several levels, including telling her that “No one’s ever really gone.” Yeah, he could be referencing Han, but since that line comes immediately after a discussion about Ben...it’s mostly about Ben.
I don’t know if he realized Leia and Rey were there...but the Falcon certainly does bring out his most tortured soul.
A friend of mine is really hung up on the “Blow that piece of junk out of the sky.” She’s thinking a Joker/Harley Quinn dynamic. I’m trying to decide how best to refute that.
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Re: The Last Jedi: Our Reviews and Reactions

Post by Rei of Sunshine on Thu 28 Dec 2017, 10:40 am

@Vaderito

But how can you possibly forget that Kylo Ren threw Rey into a treeeee?! No one will ever forget that one! He should be hanged for hurting the treeeeee
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