The Last Jedi: Our Reviews and Reactions

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Re: The Last Jedi: Our Reviews and Reactions

Post by Kessel on Wed 20 Dec 2017, 3:41 pm

@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@Cowgirlsamurai wrote:
@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@Cowgirlsamurai wrote:I can't stay away. I saw it a fourth time last night Shocked

The day after opening night was traumatic for me. I was so broken hearted. I figured that might be the case, but this movie really affected me. I wish I had bought Battlefront II after all, so that I could kick some a** as Kylo. I felt so bad that sympathy is built up for Ben in this story, only for Kylo to have to go ballistic on everyone at the end. It was painful to watch the first time around, but subsequent viewing allowed me to find the humor in it, as well as the hope sprinkled around in the film.

When I heard him say "I'll destroy her," this time, the tone in his voice made me think "Aww...ReyRey still matters to him."


@Cowgirlsamurai

That's the thing. Kylo/Ben goes *that nuts* because he still loves these people very much, including Luke. Every time I see him when he has all the guns on Luke and he says "again", I want to cry my eyes out.  Every bit of that is unbelievable hurt. He knows that he is a monster. He knows that a person that he loved and trusted helped put him on that road.  He loves these people, but they hurt him so much that it's like he care barely bear to even look at them or to even know they exist somewhere. Crait is like a metaphor for Ben. Kylo is the thin veneer of sand, but brush it aside and you get the raw burning wound that is Ben Solo.
@SoloSideCousin

I know! I've yet to feel anger at Kylo, but I'm still feeling a bit bitter toward Rey at the end, lol. In a way, her actions set him on an even darker path. I just want to yell at the screen, "You should've just given him a hug!"

@Cowgirlsamurai

Yes! Anything! A "thank you". A "You killed you master for me." Or "please just think about this."

Actually I think her reaction is foreshadowed in the scene where he says, "You think you know everything about me?" And she's says, "I know everything I need to know!" And he answers, "You do? ... You doooo ... you have the same look in your eyes ... etc."

There is so much more to him than she realizes.

Also, I think @motherofpearl1 made the comment that she didn't go for him. She went there so he could stop the war. She loves him, but more subconsciously than consciously,  and she is rather clueless about it. He loves her consciously and actually understands her better than she does him ... and so when he realizes that the Resistance is going to be her priority over her love for him (just like his mother), especially after he literally begs her and after she grabs the lightsaber and leaves him to Hux, his whole brain and heart explodes and chaos ensues and all the brilliant and thoughtful aspects of him go out the window.

I think in IX there so be a series of events that lead to her to realizing she loves him. She will go after him for him and nothing else. He has already made two proposals to her. She rejected them both. She needs to make the third. He has asked for love all his life, now she will ask him ... not because she needs to beg him like he begged her, but because given how wrecked he is, I don't think that he will chase her. I think he will be too emotionally shocked or numb for that.
@SoloSideCousin

Yes, Rey wanted to go to Ben because she thought he would turn because of her vision and help the Resistance, but she also made a real connection with him. My impression was she already cared about him and there was potential for her to fall in love with Ben Solo had things not gone pear shaped with Kylo Ren getting in the way. Angry I think he's already in love with her, but it's currently a selfish love.

What I found interesting during the throne scene is how she says, "Ben?" when he's holding his saber pointed at her, while actually getting ready to kill Snoke. It's like he was Ben during that moment.

I wonder what attitude he'll have towards her at the beginning of Episode IX? Based on how sad and pitiful he looked at the end of of TLJ, I guess he'll either try to bury his feelings and try to convince himself he hates her or continue to act out. Will he try to hunt her down? He's never been enraged with her before, but maybe he'll initially act this way? Whatever happens, his true feelings for her will rise up to the surface though.

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Re: The Last Jedi: Our Reviews and Reactions

Post by reylo1992 on Wed 20 Dec 2017, 5:05 pm

@Kessel wrote:
@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@Cowgirlsamurai wrote:
@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@Cowgirlsamurai wrote:I can't stay away. I saw it a fourth time last night Shocked

The day after opening night was traumatic for me. I was so broken hearted. I figured that might be the case, but this movie really affected me. I wish I had bought Battlefront II after all, so that I could kick some a** as Kylo. I felt so bad that sympathy is built up for Ben in this story, only for Kylo to have to go ballistic on everyone at the end. It was painful to watch the first time around, but subsequent viewing allowed me to find the humor in it, as well as the hope sprinkled around in the film.

When I heard him say "I'll destroy her," this time, the tone in his voice made me think "Aww...ReyRey still matters to him."


@Cowgirlsamurai

That's the thing. Kylo/Ben goes *that nuts* because he still loves these people very much, including Luke. Every time I see him when he has all the guns on Luke and he says "again", I want to cry my eyes out.  Every bit of that is unbelievable hurt. He knows that he is a monster. He knows that a person that he loved and trusted helped put him on that road.  He loves these people, but they hurt him so much that it's like he care barely bear to even look at them or to even know they exist somewhere. Crait is like a metaphor for Ben. Kylo is the thin veneer of sand, but brush it aside and you get the raw burning wound that is Ben Solo.
@SoloSideCousin

I know! I've yet to feel anger at Kylo, but I'm still feeling a bit bitter toward Rey at the end, lol. In a way, her actions set him on an even darker path. I just want to yell at the screen, "You should've just given him a hug!"

@Cowgirlsamurai

Yes! Anything! A "thank you". A "You killed you master for me." Or "please just think about this."

Actually I think her reaction is foreshadowed in the scene where he says, "You think you know everything about me?" And she's says, "I know everything I need to know!" And he answers, "You do? ... You doooo ... you have the same look in your eyes ... etc."

There is so much more to him than she realizes.

Also, I think @motherofpearl1 made the comment that she didn't go for him. She went there so he could stop the war. She loves him, but more subconsciously than consciously,  and she is rather clueless about it. He loves her consciously and actually understands her better than she does him ... and so when he realizes that the Resistance is going to be her priority over her love for him (just like his mother), especially after he literally begs her and after she grabs the lightsaber and leaves him to Hux, his whole brain and heart explodes and chaos ensues and all the brilliant and thoughtful aspects of him go out the window.

I think in IX there so be a series of events that lead to her to realizing she loves him. She will go after him for him and nothing else. He has already made two proposals to her. She rejected them both. She needs to make the third. He has asked for love all his life, now she will ask him ... not because she needs to beg him like he begged her, but because given how wrecked he is, I don't think that he will chase her. I think he will be too emotionally shocked or numb for that.
@SoloSideCousin

Yes, Rey wanted to go to Ben because she thought he would turn because of her vision and help the Resistance, but she also made a real connection with him. My impression was she already cared about him and there was potential for her to fall in love with Ben Solo had things not gone pear shaped with Kylo Ren getting in the way. Angry  I think he's already in love with her, but it's currently a selfish love.

What I found interesting during the throne scene is how she says, "Ben?" when he's holding his saber pointed at her, while actually getting ready to kill Snoke. It's like he was Ben during that moment.

I wonder what attitude he'll have towards her at the beginning of Episode IX? Based on how sad and pitiful he looked at the end of of TLJ, I guess he'll either try to bury his feelings and try to convince himself he hates her or continue to act out. Will he try to hunt her down? He's never been enraged with her before, but maybe he'll initially act this way? Whatever happens, his true feelings for her will rise up to the surface though.
@Kessel

IMO, it will be the first option. She is the one who will be after him this time. I already expected him to be kinda angry toward her, i.e. for scaring his face. But it never came into picture: there was no resentment toward for that. I think that he was so pleased to discover the bond and get in touch with her regularly that it overcame whatever resentment he could have had toward her.

However, I maintain what I have been thinking for a couple of days. I think that the dramatic turning point in their relationship happened from the moment Rey tried to fool him, grabbing his legacy lightsaber by surprise after making him believe that she would take his hand. And I believe that this already had grave repercussion on their relationship and it will impact their dynamic at the beginning of Episode 9.

I think that if there is one thing that really matters to Ben in a relationship with other people is trust. And if  the legacy lightsaber is meant to represent Ben, I agree with @Reynak - see in - that Ben is thrown like garbage the same way Luke throws the lightsaber like garbage. The way everybody behaved with Ben - his parents, his uncle, Snoke - shows how little trust they have toward him because he never fulfilled their expectations although the boy desperately craves to be trusted. And it strikes how much he puts efforts to show Rey he is trustworthy from their very first interactions, i.e.:

"Where are the others? The ones who were fighting with me?"

He sniffed disdainfully. "You mean the traitors, murderers, and thieves you call friends? Consider carefully now: I could easily tell you they were killed, righteously slain in battle. But I would prefer to be honest with you from the beginning. You will be relieved to hear that as far as their current status and well-being is concerned - I have no idea."


So I think that Ben is craves for people who can trust but also for people he can trust and I think that what happens with the legacy lightsaber in the end of the movie is no coincidence.

In TFA, Kylo is drawn to Rey, not making many efforts to resist the temptation. His legacy lightsaber flies without any effort in Rey's hand, leaving Kylo in awe:



In TLJ, Kylo confesses his feelings to Rey and yet the legacy lightsaber doesn't fly in her hand when she calls it this time. She seems herself very surprised by this. And I think this is no coincidence because she did the very last thing to do with him: making him believe she would take his hand and instead grabbing the lightsaber by surprise to attack him. If trust is really something that matters much to Ben, it must have represented for him an act of betrayal.

And IMO, he will have much more difficulty to forgive an act of betrayal than an impulsive gesture. He may have looked at her with puppy eyes during their last interaction, I think that he was primiraly shaken to discover that the connection was real no matter what Snoke said about it. But thinking about what happened, I think that his anger toward Rey will rise for several legitimate reasons. Plus, let's keep in mind that TLJ made Kylo stand on his feets to become a grown man. In the next episode, he will be finally the master of his own destiny: no Snoke, no uncle, no parents he must prove he is trustworthy in fulfilling their expectations.  So I guess that for all these reasons he won't be  willing like before to slide in the corridors after Rey, craving to show her he is trustworthy. So I think that there will be a change in their dynamic at the beginning of Episode 9. I completely expect him to be a sharp tongue.
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Re: The Last Jedi: Our Reviews and Reactions

Post by Night Huntress on Thu 21 Dec 2017, 1:03 am

@reylo1992: I completely agree with you!

the way Rey turned down his offer was betrayal in his eyes (rightfully) - she didn't even try to have a normal conversation with him. No, she deceived him by reaching out her hand und than going for the lightsaber. *facepalm*

I know some argue she didn't want to risk Ben forcing her to stay against her will - but I don't buy that.

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Re: The Last Jedi: Our Reviews and Reactions

Post by Darth_Awakened on Thu 21 Dec 2017, 1:17 am

@fuhry wrote:After 6 days of mulling it over, this is where I am:

There were things about the execution of the movie that I didn't like.  I thought it went for cheap laughs too much.  I thought the introduction of Holdo was kind of bizarre (Poe has never met her? wha?).  I thought it was kind of too jam packed.  Some characters that I liked got relegated to cameos.

That said, after thinking about it, and imagining and conjecturing where they might go in IX, I really love where Rian took the story.  When we were introduced to the OT, there was this romantic "Good guys vs. Bad guys" thing that was really compelling, and in the end, the good guys won.  Then we went to the PT, and we see that the Clone Wars were created by a Sith lord who was playing both sides to destroy the Jedi order and create an Empire.   Now, in the ST, we see that the efforts to vanquish the Empire have failed.  We see Finn and Rose coming face to face with those making huge sums from War.  We see Luke wisely explaining that the Jedi's use of the force as some kind of superpower to fight wars. We see the force sensitive protagonists on both sides reaching out to each other.

Rian is setting up a way to end this war - a third direction.
@fuhry

I very much agree on everything you've said - it's the new direction they're heading with it. I grew up with the OT as well, and I needed a bit more time to digest everything I saw in TLJ - but now after my second viewing it seems everything is falling in the right places.
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Re: The Last Jedi: Our Reviews and Reactions

Post by fuhry on Thu 21 Dec 2017, 10:35 am

@Night Huntress wrote:@reylo1992: I completely agree with you!

the way Rey turned down his offer was betrayal in his eyes (rightfully) - she didn't even try to have a normal conversation with him. No, she deceived him by reaching out her hand und than going for the lightsaber. *facepalm*

I know some argue she didn't want to risk Ben forcing her to stay against her will - but I don't buy that.

@Night Huntress

I guess I have to see the movie again, but doesn't Rey mention that there's still time to call off the attack on the Resistance ships? And doesn't Kylo respond that they should let the past die? I mean, they just had this great fight together, then he says he's just going to continue to let the First Order kill her friends. And.. he has both the sabers when he says it. Then he begs her to join him?

NUH-UH.

Rey was right to go for her saber. Did he offer to call off the attack if she agreed to join him? I don't think he did. NO DEAL, GOTH-BOY. You're going to have to do better than that.
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Re: The Last Jedi: Our Reviews and Reactions

Post by Guest on Thu 21 Dec 2017, 10:46 am

@fuhry wrote:
@Night Huntress wrote:@reylo1992: I completely agree with you!

the way Rey turned down his offer was betrayal in his eyes (rightfully) - she didn't even try to have a normal conversation with him. No, she deceived him by reaching out her hand und than going for the lightsaber. *facepalm*

I know some argue she didn't want to risk Ben forcing her to stay against her will - but I don't buy that.

@Night Huntress

I guess I have to see the movie again, but doesn't Rey mention that there's still time to call off the attack on the Resistance ships? And doesn't Kylo respond that they should let the past die? I mean, they just had this great fight together, then he says he's just going to continue to let the First Order kill her friends. And.. he has both the sabers when he says it. Then he begs her to join him?

NUH-UH.

Rey was right to go for her saber. Did he offer to call off the attack if she agreed to join him? I don't think he did. NO DEAL, GOTH-BOY. You're going to have to do better than that.
@fuhry

Rey was totally right to reject him. He was hell bent on destruction and ruling over the galaxy. She wasn’t going to let her friends die and she had to try and save them. The moment was way too emotionally charged to stop for a chat. Kylo had just yelled at her to let go of the past and told her she was nothing to anyone but him. Kylo wants power and is driven by the dark side, Rey is not to blame for that. He made his choice and she made hers.

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Re: The Last Jedi: Our Reviews and Reactions

Post by SoloSideCousin on Thu 21 Dec 2017, 12:43 pm

The thing is that Rey didn't appeal to him on behalf of her friends. She appealed to him on behalf of the Resistance. In fact, she didn't even go there to save him for him. She went there so that she could co-op him as a fighter for the Resistance. The second she ran to that monitor instead of acknowledging how he saved her life or the breakthrough he had, he knew that. He knew she had come primarily to bring him to the Resistance. That's why he even thinks about Snoke, and that's why he goes all Mr. Darcy on her. But in the end, despite how clumsy he was, we never got an equivalent of "not to me" out of her.  We never even got her asking for him to come with her. She just assumed it and demanded it. And even with all this signaling that he, as himself, was not her top priority,  he still begged her to be with him, making himself vulnerable in a way she never did.

You say that she had to go, but how much time was wasted and how many Resistance people were killed while she escaped the FO ship? Had she asked him to save her friends, he would have crumbled. So, IMO, it doesn't matter that he had both lightsabers.  He could have killed her when he had the chance. Instead, he turned on his master and made himself a traitor to the state. He had to know that, so his request that she "join him" was actually probably not about her joining him in the FO. He said that they should let Snoke die. Snoke is the FO. He doesn't care about the FO. He is looking for revolution. He had already turned on the FO when he killed Snoke.

And speaking of turning on Snoke, he became a traitor at that moment ... and Hux is in charge of a brainwashed army. How exactly was he supposed to stop the attack without Hux getting wind of it and having all the stormtroopers turn on him and Rey as a result?
He couldn't and Rey was entirely too naive to understand any of that.

He wasn't trying to be the Supreme Leader.  He wanted something new. She could have argued with him about saving her friends, but her expectation that he jump to the Resistance was plain wrongheaded.

Ren only became the Supreme Leader *after* she grabbed the lightsaber, left him unconscious and vulnerable and after Hux thought about killing him in his sleep (deja vu for Kylo/Ben there). He still wanted her when she just wanted to co-opt him for the Resistance.  Just like Luke made Kylo Ren,  she made the Supreme Leader.  She didn't mean to, but her actions had some bad unintended consequences when she was trying to softly manipulate a guy who is as damaged and needy as him. I don't think she has a clue of his level of damage,  but will find out in IX. And it was that unseen damage that to his full Renperor mental breakdown.
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Re: The Last Jedi: Our Reviews and Reactions

Post by Darth_Awakened on Thu 21 Dec 2017, 12:54 pm

The thing is that Rian broke some rules with TLJ. The fact is that things don't appear to be that black vs. white.

Hence the general confusion as the dominant reaction for many of us after the first viewing.

The "break up" in the Throne room happened because love and compassion in SW are  presented as the unconditional things - and both characters failed at that, if you analyze it on the level of the mutual dynamics and not on the level of good vs. bad guys conflict.


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Re: The Last Jedi: Our Reviews and Reactions

Post by Cowgirlsamurai on Thu 21 Dec 2017, 12:58 pm

@SoloSideCousin

I think her turning him down makes sense, because like you say, she was there to turn him more for the Resistance's purposes rather than her own personal desires. (Which is interesting because Kylo keeps doing things for personal reasons rather than for the FO). But I don't agree that if she'd asked him to save her friends he would've. She says, "There's still time to save the fleet!" but realizes he's not listening and is instead intently staring at Snoke's body on the floor. So to me, she DID ask him, and he ignored her and starts going on about letting things (like her allies out there on those ships) die so they could start anew. This is why she couldn't take his hand in that moment, from a rational point of view Razz
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Re: The Last Jedi: Our Reviews and Reactions

Post by Night Huntress on Thu 21 Dec 2017, 1:03 pm

@SoloSideCousin wrote:The thing is that Rey didn't appeal to him on behalf of her friends. She appealed to him on behalf of the Resistance. In fact, she didn't even go there to save him for him. She went there so that she could co-op him as a fighter for the Resistance. The second she ran to that monitor instead of acknowledging how he saved her life or the breakthrough he had, he knew that. He knew she had come primarily to bring him to the Resistance. That's why he even thinks about Snoke, and that's why he goes all Mr. Darcy on her. But in the end, despite how clumsy he was, we never got an equivalent of "not to me" out of her.  We never even got her asking for him to come with her. She just assumed it and demanded it. And even with all this signaling that he, as himself, was not her top priority,  he still begged her to be with him, making himself vulnerable in a way she never did.

Yes- exactly. She didn't went there for Ben Solo as a person- to save the lost boy from the darkness and miserable life. No, she even tells Luke when leaving Ahch-to that they could win the war if they could win Ben/Kylo to their side.

@SoloSideCousin wrote:
And speaking of turning on Snoke, he became a traitor at that moment ... and Hux is in charge of a brainwashed army. How exactly was he supposed to stop the attack without Hux getting wind of it and having all the stormtroopers turn on him and Rey as a result?
He couldn't and Rey was entirely too naive to understand any of that.

I agree- I mentioned the same thing a few posts ago... Ben isn't in charge of the military in the FO. He committed high treason by killing the Supreme Leader. How should he command the the attack without being arrested or executed himself immediately ?

@SoloSideCousin wrote:
He wasn't trying to be the Supreme Leader.  He wanted something new. She could have argued with him about saving her friends, but her expectation that he jump to the Resistance was plain wrongheaded.

Thumbs up

@SoloSideCousin wrote:
Ren only became the Supreme Leader *after* she grabbed the lightsaber, left him unconscious and vulnerable and after Hux thought about killing him in his sleep (deja vu for Kylo/Ben there). He still wanted her when she just wanted to co-opt him for the Resistance.  Just like Luke made Kylo Ren,  she made the Supreme Leader.  She didn't mean to, but her actions had some bad unintended consequences when she was trying to softly manipulate a guy who is as damaged and needy as him. I don't think she has a clue of his level of damage,  but will find out in IX. And it was that unseen damage that to his full Renperor mental breakdown.
@SoloSideCousin

Yes, I don't think he even wanted to be Supreme leader after waking up. He just wanted to leash out at the resistance- the "rebel scum" that Rey choose over him. And that was wrong of him- no doubt. But it was Hux that called him "Supreme Leader" he never said. "I am the new Supreme Leader now..." It just sort of happens because of circumstance.
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Re: The Last Jedi: Our Reviews and Reactions

Post by Kessel on Thu 21 Dec 2017, 1:10 pm

I think Rey took it for granted that Ben would be willing to help the Resistance because she thought her vision of him had come true when he killed Snoke. She naively thought that the act of killing Snoke meant he had now returned to the light which equaled helped the Resistance. What she didn't realize is it isn't as simple as light vs. dark and Resistance vs. FO. When Kylo killed Snoke, he was getting rid of his own enemy, not the Resistance's enemy. He still hates the Resistance.

I don't know if Kylo intended to get rid of the FO after killing Snoke. I think he probably intended to use it to get rid of the Resistance, but he hadnt thought too far ahead on that point. I don't think he's particularly loyal to them. I believe his loyalty is to whatever path he thinks he's on as Vader's heir (something Snoke stoked obviously). I still wonder what he expected to do had Rey accepted his offer. How was he going to explain Snoke's death?  Was he going to kill Hux too? Would the rest of the FO just accept that?

I agree it's quite ironic that Rey helped create Supreme Leader Kylo. And Kylo guaranteed the continuation of the Jedi when he refused to kill Rey.

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Re: The Last Jedi: Our Reviews and Reactions

Post by IoJovi on Thu 21 Dec 2017, 1:15 pm

@Cowgirlsamurai wrote:@SoloSideCousin

I think her turning him down makes sense, because like you say, she was there to turn him more for the Resistance's purposes rather than her own personal desires. (Which is interesting because Kylo keeps doing things for personal reasons rather than for the FO). But I don't agree that if she'd asked him to save her friends he would've. She says, "There's still time to save the fleet!" but realizes he's not listening and is instead intently staring at Snoke's body on the floor. So to me, she DID ask him, and he ignored her and starts going on about letting things (like her allies out there on those ships) die so they could start anew. This is why she couldn't take his hand in that moment, from a rational point of view Razz
@Cowgirlsamurai

From my perspective, they both share 50% of the blame for what happened afterwards in Snoke's throne room.  Ben has internal pain of his own mother choosing the Resistance or her political work over him as a child.   Rey did the same thing to him in that moment.  On the flip side, I also don't think it's accurate that Rey is ONLY there to get Ben to turn to save the Resistance.  She clearly has feelings for him, and I wouldn't expect her to tell Luke she has the hots for him as a valid reason for her leaving.  Therefore, her telling Luke that Ben Solo was their last hope was completely in character and true to the story.   I think there might be a little bit of lying to herself about those suppressed by clearly romantic feelings for him.  Whatever it is, Rey's feelings are jumbled mess, which is to be expected in this type of romance.
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Re: The Last Jedi: Our Reviews and Reactions

Post by SoloSideCousin on Thu 21 Dec 2017, 1:15 pm

@Cowgirlsamurai wrote:@SoloSideCousin

I think her turning him down makes sense, because like you say, she was there to turn him more for the Resistance's purposes rather than her own personal desires. (Which is interesting because Kylo keeps doing things for personal reasons rather than for the FO). But I don't agree that if she'd asked him to save her friends he would've. She says, "There's still time to save the fleet!" but realizes he's not listening and is instead intently staring at Snoke's body on the floor. So to me, she DID ask him, and he ignored her and starts going on about letting things (like her allies out there on those ships) die so they could start anew. This is why she couldn't take his hand in that moment, from a rational point of view Razz
@Cowgirlsamurai

I hear you. I still think that there was a possibility that she could have "worked him" some more, because like you say, he does everything for personal reasons. That said,  I do think that right after the fight was the prime moment when they could have come together and the whole world would have changed. They were in perfect sync until she looked away from him and looked to the monitor. It was only then that he looked to Snoke. Like @"Darth Awakened" just said above, their love is not unconditional yet, so little things can set off bad chain reactions,  as was foreshadowed in a the beginning when a random TIE fighter part takes down 4 bombers. It seems minor in the whole scope of things, but like Rian said ... He wanted to do a grand romance in TLJ, but the characters were not quite ready yet. They will be in IX. She needs to get her naive, magical thinking and hasty, "I know everything I need to know" mindset under control, and he plain just need a to starts digging his way out of the erratic,  pain and turmoil ridden mental hell that Snoke and his experience with Luke put him in.  It's like his whole brain has been on fire for years. When he is calm and not feeling hurt, he can be pretty rational and insightful. He needs to get past the hurt so he can lower the temperature of his brain so he can think clearly and maturely.


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Re: The Last Jedi: Our Reviews and Reactions

Post by Guest on Thu 21 Dec 2017, 1:23 pm

@SoloSideCousin I really don’t think Rey pleading on behalf of her friends would have made a difference. It probably would have made things worse given that they include Poe Dameron and Finn. Kylo paused to look at Snoke’s body but he’d already decided he wanted the throne. His attention went to it straight after the fight. Yes, he wanted Rey too but he didn’t care about what was important to her.

Kylo said right at the start that he’d given everything to Snoke and the dark side. He has spent the last six years furthering the First Order’s agenda. Yes, there is more to it than that but he couldn’t leave for his father, in fact he killed Han in the hope of ending his turmoil and committing himself fully to his dark side ambitions. Rey believed the vision she had, she wanted it, she put herself in a box and mailed herself to the First Order on the strength of it, for goodness sake! Not even her belief in him was enough, Kylo's couldn’t walk away from his chance to rule over the galaxy for her nor did he ever consider it an option. It’s all there in the Visual Dictionary, his hunger for power won out in the end. It’s not the end of the story though, so there is time for him to realise what he thought he wanted isn’t what he really wants at all.

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Re: The Last Jedi: Our Reviews and Reactions

Post by vaderito on Thu 21 Dec 2017, 1:24 pm

@Darth_Awakened wrote:The thing is that Rian broke some rules with TLJ. The fact is that things don't appear to be that black vs. white.

Hence the general confusion as the dominant reaction for may of us after the first viewing.

The "break up" in the Throne room happened because love and compassion in SW are  presented as the unconditional things - and both characters failed at that, if you analyze it on the level of the mutual dynamics and not on the level of good vs. bad guys conflict.  
@Darth_Awakened

This. Their love hasn't reached unconditional point yet. neither had Vader's for Luke or Luke's for Vader in ESB. And to reylo advantage, they have much more development in that regard than Luke and Vader ever had, for them to love each other unconditionally in IX.
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Re: The Last Jedi: Our Reviews and Reactions

Post by SoloSideCousin on Thu 21 Dec 2017, 1:26 pm

@IoJovi wrote:
@Cowgirlsamurai wrote:@SoloSideCousin

I think her turning him down makes sense, because like you say, she was there to turn him more for the Resistance's purposes rather than her own personal desires. (Which is interesting because Kylo keeps doing things for personal reasons rather than for the FO). But I don't agree that if she'd asked him to save her friends he would've. She says, "There's still time to save the fleet!" but realizes he's not listening and is instead intently staring at Snoke's body on the floor. So to me, she DID ask him, and he ignored her and starts going on about letting things (like her allies out there on those ships) die so they could start anew. This is why she couldn't take his hand in that moment, from a rational point of view Razz
@Cowgirlsamurai

From my perspective, they both share 50% of the blame for what happened afterwards in Snoke's throne room.  Ben has internal pain of his own mother choosing the Resistance or her political work over him as a child.   Rey did the same thing to him in that moment.  On the flip side, I also don't think it's accurate that Rey is ONLY there to get Ben to turn to save the Resistance.  She clearly has feelings for him, and I wouldn't expect her to tell Luke she has the hots for him as a valid reason for her leaving.  Therefore, her telling Luke that Ben Solo was their last hope was completely in character and true to the story.   I think there might be a little bit of lying to herself about those suppressed by clearly romantic feelings for him.  Whatever it is, Rey's feelings are jumbled mess, which is to be expected in this type of romance.
@IoJovi

I agree. Rey definitely has feelings for him. If I didn't make that clear, I am sorry about that. But I do think her feelings might be a little more under the surface than his ... which actually fits for her. Logically, she doesn't want to love him. It's really inconvenient... And she is a master of denial if there ever was one. He can see that. That's why he is always telling her to say things out loud. That's why it's actually easier for her to think of the Resistance first and it's easier to close the door in his face, because the thought of loving him is really hard.  But then she ends up rather isolated on the Resistance ship until Leia comes over. Her answer,  joining both sides of the lightsaber, are in her hands. She asks that dumb-sounding question,  "What about the Resistance?", but now that I think about it, that might be another Rian nuance. It's easy for her to talk about the Resistance and to act he doesn't exist ... but she is not entirely present with that question ... it's like when she keeps rotely telling Luke about the Resistance,  when she really wants help for herself. She talks about the Resistance again at the end with that same slightly off tone, when she really wants to ask "How can Ben and I ever straighten this out?"
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Re: The Last Jedi: Our Reviews and Reactions

Post by Cowgirlsamurai on Thu 21 Dec 2017, 1:26 pm

@IoJovi wrote:
@Cowgirlsamurai wrote:@SoloSideCousin

I think her turning him down makes sense, because like you say, she was there to turn him more for the Resistance's purposes rather than her own personal desires. (Which is interesting because Kylo keeps doing things for personal reasons rather than for the FO). But I don't agree that if she'd asked him to save her friends he would've. She says, "There's still time to save the fleet!" but realizes he's not listening and is instead intently staring at Snoke's body on the floor. So to me, she DID ask him, and he ignored her and starts going on about letting things (like her allies out there on those ships) die so they could start anew. This is why she couldn't take his hand in that moment, from a rational point of view Razz
@Cowgirlsamurai

From my perspective, they both share 50% of the blame for what happened afterwards in Snoke's throne room.  Ben has internal pain of his own mother choosing the Resistance or her political work over him as a child.   Rey did the same thing to him in that moment.  On the flip side, I also don't think it's accurate that Rey is ONLY there to get Ben to turn to save the Resistance.  She clearly has feelings for him, and I wouldn't expect her to tell Luke she has the hots for him as a valid reason for her leaving.  Therefore, her telling Luke that Ben Solo was their last hope was completely in character and true to the story.   I think there might be a little bit of lying to herself about those suppressed by clearly romantic feelings for him.  Whatever it is, Rey's feelings are jumbled mess, which is to be expected in this type of romance.
@IoJovi

I think her feelings for him could've been made a little clearer to the audience then. Because, for example, in the hut scene they tell each other that the other is not alone, but then when she reaches out, her face is terrified and pained (until they actually touch and she sees her vision of "light side" Ben)  which conveys that she is truly "flirting with the dark side." Then it's like she gets the idea that Kylo has softened to her in a way and she presents her "Resistance" plans to Luke. In the elevator to Snoke's throne room, the way she gets right up close to him and whispers "I'll help you," is quite suggestive, but it's like he doesn't exactly take the bait when he's like "You'll be the one to turn," and she looks panicked for a moment (like "Oops, maybe I shouldn't have come here"). It's comes across as he's turned on by the idea of her going dark, and she's turned on by the idea of him helping the Resistance, thought I think the romantic subtext is there.
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Re: The Last Jedi: Our Reviews and Reactions

Post by IoJovi on Thu 21 Dec 2017, 1:43 pm

@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@Cowgirlsamurai wrote:@SoloSideCousin

I think her turning him down makes sense, because like you say, she was there to turn him more for the Resistance's purposes rather than her own personal desires. (Which is interesting because Kylo keeps doing things for personal reasons rather than for the FO). But I don't agree that if she'd asked him to save her friends he would've. She says, "There's still time to save the fleet!" but realizes he's not listening and is instead intently staring at Snoke's body on the floor. So to me, she DID ask him, and he ignored her and starts going on about letting things (like her allies out there on those ships) die so they could start anew. This is why she couldn't take his hand in that moment, from a rational point of view Razz
@Cowgirlsamurai

I hear you. I still think that there was a possibility that she could have "worked him" some more, because like you say, he does everything for personal reasons. That said,  I do think that right after the fight was the prime moment when they could have come together and the whole world would have changed. They were in perfect sync until she looked away from him and looked to the monitor. It was only then that he looked to Snoke. Like @"Darth Awakened" just said above, their love is not unconditional yet, so little things can set off bad chain reactions,  as was foreshadowed in a the beginning when a random TIE fighter part takes down 4 bombers. It seems minor in the whole scope of things, but like Rian said ... He wanted to do a grand romance in TLJ, but the characters were not quite ready yet. They will be in IX. She needs to get her naive, magical thinking and hasty, "I know everything I need to know" mindset under control, and he plain just need a to starts digging his way out of the erratic,  pain and turmoil ridden mental hell that Snoke and his experience with Luke put him in.  It's like his whole brain has been on fire for years. When he is calm and not feeling hurt, he can be pretty rational and insightful. He needs to get past the hurt so he can lower the temperature of his brain so he can think clearly and maturely.
@SoloSideCousin

Rey's denial of her feelings for Ben really do fall in line with her character, don't they!  I mean, this is the same girl who lied to herself to the point where she would have wasted her entire life as a scavenger on Jakku had she not run into BB8 followed by Finn because of that same type of denial.  

I also love the contrast between them.  He's all about letting the past burn and die (much to his detriment) while she's so bloody optimistic it would have ruined her life had fate not stepped in.  

I can't wait for them to finally meet in the middle and put an end to each other's misery.

@CowgirlSamurai I think it's a bit clearer than that.  Rey initiated every single contact with him once they got past the I HATE YOU/I HATE YOU TOO stage.  From the hand touch to her going to find him on the Supremacy to her stepping towards him in the elevator, that was all Rey.  She has feelings for him even if she won't admit that to herself.
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Re: The Last Jedi: Our Reviews and Reactions

Post by Kessel on Thu 21 Dec 2017, 1:46 pm

@Cowgirlsamurai wrote:
@IoJovi wrote:
@Cowgirlsamurai wrote:@SoloSideCousin

I think her turning him down makes sense, because like you say, she was there to turn him more for the Resistance's purposes rather than her own personal desires. (Which is interesting because Kylo keeps doing things for personal reasons rather than for the FO). But I don't agree that if she'd asked him to save her friends he would've. She says, "There's still time to save the fleet!" but realizes he's not listening and is instead intently staring at Snoke's body on the floor. So to me, she DID ask him, and he ignored her and starts going on about letting things (like her allies out there on those ships) die so they could start anew. This is why she couldn't take his hand in that moment, from a rational point of view Razz
@Cowgirlsamurai

From my perspective, they both share 50% of the blame for what happened afterwards in Snoke's throne room.  Ben has internal pain of his own mother choosing the Resistance or her political work over him as a child.   Rey did the same thing to him in that moment.  On the flip side, I also don't think it's accurate that Rey is ONLY there to get Ben to turn to save the Resistance.  She clearly has feelings for him, and I wouldn't expect her to tell Luke she has the hots for him as a valid reason for her leaving.  Therefore, her telling Luke that Ben Solo was their last hope was completely in character and true to the story.   I think there might be a little bit of lying to herself about those suppressed by clearly romantic feelings for him.  Whatever it is, Rey's feelings are jumbled mess, which is to be expected in this type of romance.
@IoJovi

I think her feelings for him could've been made a little clearer to the audience then. Because, for example, in the hut scene they tell each other that the other is not alone, but then when she reaches out, her face is terrified and pained (until they actually touch and she sees her vision of "light side" Ben)  which conveys that she is truly "flirting with the dark side." Then it's like she gets the idea that Kylo has softened to her in a way and she presents her "Resistance" plans to Luke. In the elevator to Snoke's throne room, the way she gets right up close to him and whispers "I'll help you," is quite suggestive, but it's like he doesn't exactly take the bait when he's like "You'll be the one to turn," and she looks panicked for a moment (like "Oops, maybe I shouldn't have come here"). It's comes across as he's turned on by the idea of her going dark, and she's turned on by the idea of him helping the Resistance, thought I think the romantic subtext is there.
@Cowgirlsamurai

Yes, I saw it that way too, especially the bolded. Before the visions, they had formed a bond full of potential, but they were still dangerous to each other (because she's on the light and he's on the dark). Once they had their visions, the potential looked like it could be truly realized. Rey got really enthused because it was all fitting together. I don't think she's analyzing her feelings though, so she may not consciously realize any of this. She's thinking of the immediate benefit of Ben turning to help the Resistance, but underneath that there's this undercurrent of feelings. Him turning and helping the Resistance would make the development of those feelings easier to realize.  I think if Ben had turned and helped the Resistance, she would fall in love with him. The way she looked at him in the elevator reenforces that.

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Re: The Last Jedi: Our Reviews and Reactions

Post by Cowgirlsamurai on Thu 21 Dec 2017, 1:56 pm

@IoJovi

Yes, I believe there’s a denial of feelings too. It’s visible in their final look when she shuts the Falcon door on him. I just wish that it wasn’t all portrayed so ambiguously, lol.

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Re: The Last Jedi: Our Reviews and Reactions

Post by FrolickingFizzgig on Thu 21 Dec 2017, 2:13 pm

Rey's feelings aren't that ambiguous IMO, she just doesn't want to be feeling them at all. All the observations above are astute examples of indirect characterization. What she's experiencing is new and confusing and muddled with her awakening Force powers. But no matter what she never would have reached out to touch him if there wasn't something there. There was no reason for her to do that. She wasn't thinking about the war or the light side or the dark side, just about seeing him as more than something to hate. They were alone and in that one selfless, unguarded moment they felt the balance.
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Re: The Last Jedi: Our Reviews and Reactions

Post by Cowgirlsamurai on Thu 21 Dec 2017, 2:37 pm

@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:Rey's feelings aren't that ambiguous IMO, she just doesn't want to be feeling them at all. All the observations above are astute examples of indirect characterization. What she's experiencing is new and confusing and muddled with her awakening Force powers. But no matter what she never would have reached out to touch him if there wasn't something there. There was no reason for her to do that. She wasn't thinking about the war or the light side or the dark side, just about seeing him as more than something to hate. They were alone and in that one selfless, unguarded moment they felt the balance.
@FrolickingFizzgig

The hand scene reads as a kindred spirits thing to me until Luke bursts in like angry, “Get off my daughter” dad Laughing
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Re: The Last Jedi: Our Reviews and Reactions

Post by IoJovi on Thu 21 Dec 2017, 2:41 pm

@Cowgirlsamurai wrote:
@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:Rey's feelings aren't that ambiguous IMO, she just doesn't want to be feeling them at all. All the observations above are astute examples of indirect characterization. What she's experiencing is new and confusing and muddled with her awakening Force powers. But no matter what she never would have reached out to touch him if there wasn't something there. There was no reason for her to do that. She wasn't thinking about the war or the light side or the dark side, just about seeing him as more than something to hate. They were alone and in that one selfless, unguarded moment they felt the balance.
@FrolickingFizzgig

The hand scene reads as a kindred spirits thing to me until Luke bursts in like angry, “Get off my daughter” dad Laughing
@Cowgirlsamurai

The subtext in that scene is hilarious.  Angry Not-Dad with his shotgun catching not-daughter sneaking a boy from the wrong side of the tracks into her room...  Laughing
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Re: The Last Jedi: Our Reviews and Reactions

Post by Birdwoman on Thu 21 Dec 2017, 3:00 pm

The hand touching scene reminded me of myself and my parents when I started to date. My family was so conservative and sexually prudish. I was to wait until marriage to have sex....then as I had boyfriends, they were so hypervigilant that I remain 'pure.' Luke busting into the cottage reminded me of that. LOL!

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Re: The Last Jedi: Our Reviews and Reactions

Post by ZioRen on Thu 21 Dec 2017, 3:03 pm

I also think that it was easier for Rey, after seeing that vision, to turn her feelings into a tool instead. Like "Oh, I can bring him back to the light and that'll be how we win the war!" The underlier is: "I feel a connection with Ben and want him back" but, still in denial, she layers it under "This is the key to winning the war." There's definitely an element of that even in that elevator scene. Something about that moment seemed sort of calculated, especially when after Kylo turned around on her with his version of the vision, she stepped away and backed down and looked disappointed like "Oh, well that didn't work. Darn." 

They're both still muddling true feelings with their own ambitions, and that's why it falls apart. I get why people have a kneejerk "no" reaction to the idea of them 'sharing the blame', because they're thinking in terms of "But Rey is in the right and Kylo is still in murder mode and was mean". And that's not incorrect in the least, but it doesn't change the fact that the fallout between them falls on them both. Basic cause and effect in storytelling still applies even if you argue that "she's not responsible for his bad behavior, etc etc". The simple fact is that both of them not expressing themselves correctly and refusing to budge resulted in everything that went down on Crait. The split lightsaber probably symbolizes that, among other things.
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