The Last Jedi: Our Reviews and Reactions

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Re: The Last Jedi: Our Reviews and Reactions

Post by shii405 on Thu 21 Dec 2017, 9:19 pm

Basically Harrison and Mark have their own headcanon about Han and Luke, respectively. Harrison was not happy by the end of ROTJ, but he got what he wants and very, very happy by the end of TFA. Mark was happy by the end of ROTJ but not happy about TLJ. The irony.

I am really glad and kind of impressed that Adam refuse to have his own headcanon on Kylo/Ben. Anyone remember what he said about this, the reason why he doesn't want to decide Kylo Ren's fate himself?
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Re: The Last Jedi: Our Reviews and Reactions

Post by SheLitAFire on Thu 21 Dec 2017, 9:21 pm

@ISeeAnIsland wrote:
@snufkin wrote:@Moonjump05 - We'll never know, just like how Poe managed to survive the crash on Jakku and get back to the Resistance is never shown. But I LOL'd because she did it to him again, just like SKB.
@snufkin

In the novelization, Poe literally gets picked up by a Jakku resident who takes him to somewhere that he can get a transport. I distinctly remember the Jakku person telling Poe, "I'd like to scavenge you."
@ISeeAnIsland

Oh, so I should tell my husband to read the novelization so he'll stop b****ing about how the eff Poe got off Jakku? He seriously brings that up every single time SW is mentioned lol Eh bien
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Re: The Last Jedi: Our Reviews and Reactions

Post by MyOnlyHope on Thu 21 Dec 2017, 9:27 pm

@FrolickingFizzgig Definitely. Why do we think he reiterates in almost every interview he does that "It's not his story anymore. [He] had [his] beginning, middle and end." He probably wants to convince himself of that fact just as much as anyone watching.

I found Rian's exploration of Luke to be absolutely perfect. What was it Rian said? Something about how Luke has never been great at fighting but has always been great at saving people? I couldn't agree more. Sorry Luke fans, but it's the truth. His scene with Yoda is incredible. He still feels exactly like the Luke I love from the OT, even down to the little traces of whininess and resignation. His death scene is one of the most poetic images I've ever witnessed. He dies staring out at the horizon, as much the dreamer in that moment as he always has been. Most importantly, he dies defying Yoda's words about concentrating on what's in front of him to the very end lmfao.


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Re: The Last Jedi: Our Reviews and Reactions

Post by SoloSideCousin on Thu 21 Dec 2017, 9:28 pm

@shii405 wrote:Basically Harrison and Mark have their own headcanon about Han and Luke, respectively. Harrison was not happy by the end of ROTJ, but he got what he wants and very, very happy by the end of TFA. Mark was happy by the end of ROTJ but not happy about TLJ. The irony.

I am really glad and kind of impressed that Adam refuse to have his own headcanon on Kylo/Ben. Anyone remember what he said about this, the reason why he doesn't want to decide Kylo Ren's fate himself?
@shii405

Adam worked for Lena Dunham for years. He knows what it is like to be in a very unpredictable writing environment. I don't say that to necessarily bash Lena Dunham. A lot of her stuff worked, and a good amount of it didn't,  but there was always a lot of zig-zagging around in her plots.

I saw that interview that you were talking about. It's a junket interview.  In the same interview he also largely debunks PlotGate, at least for Kylo, because he knows how Kylo ends up, but not how he gets there.
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Re: The Last Jedi: Our Reviews and Reactions

Post by shii405 on Thu 21 Dec 2017, 9:32 pm

@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:@Rei of Sunshine
Someone on another forum made an astute observation that made me laugh. Mark suffered from what they called PPD (post-protagonist disorder) going into TLJ. That said, a lot of his statements have been taken out of context or blown out of proportion. It's all word-of-mouth and that's never a good thing. Like, at all.
@FrolickingFizzgig

I wonder what will Carrie say to Mark when he said "Its not my Luke Skywalker"
I mean, when Mark tried to make his filmography vague by mentioning space film instead of SW titles, Carrie just went ahead "wtf is this? Let me tell you, you are Luke Skywalker, I am Princess Leia, thats gonna stuck with us forever!" or smth like that. Just thinking Carrie might respond to "its not my Luke" too. I miss Carrie T_T
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Re: The Last Jedi: Our Reviews and Reactions

Post by LadyHa on Thu 21 Dec 2017, 9:52 pm

@SheLitAFire wrote:

Similar. My favorite in TLJ were 1. Kylo, 2. Hux, 3. Rey, 4. The caretakers lol
@SheLitAFire

These are my favorites too!  Glad to see some caretaker love here.  I read that there is an extended deleted scene with them, so we have that to look forward to. Wink

I amuse myself by imaging that if I was in the FO, Hux would totally be my "work husband."  We would smugly believe that we did the lion's share of the work, and share irritated glances with one another whenever one of our coworkers wasted our time by going on and on about their weekend plans or their silly family tales. Laughing
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Re: The Last Jedi: Our Reviews and Reactions

Post by SoloSideCousin on Thu 21 Dec 2017, 10:04 pm

@LadyHa wrote:
@SheLitAFire wrote:

Similar. My favorite in TLJ were 1. Kylo, 2. Hux, 3. Rey, 4. The caretakers lol
@SheLitAFire

These are my favorites too!  Glad to see some caretaker love here.  I read that there is an extended deleted scene with them, so we have that to look forward to. Wink

I amuse myself by imaging that if I was in the FO, Hux would totally be my "work husband."  We would smugly believe that we did the lion's share of the work, and share irritated glances with one another whenever one of our coworkers wasted our time by going on and on about their weekend plans or their silly family tales. Laughing
@LadyHa

I actually love how thr caretakers are pissed at Rey because she keeps messing stuff up. I get the impression that they are all about balance on the island, and they have enough imbalance with depressed Luke, they don't need hers too, lol.
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Re: The Last Jedi: Our Reviews and Reactions

Post by ISeeAnIsland on Thu 21 Dec 2017, 10:13 pm

I don't see how any Luke fan can be upset with how he died. (I get the ones being upset about him having thoughts of murdering his nephew.) To me, the defining thing about Luke in the OT was that he grew to have these amazing Force powers by the end, but his defining moment was one of pacificism.  I thought that his final scene reflected that beautifully.

@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@LadyHa wrote:
@SheLitAFire wrote:

Similar. My favorite in TLJ were 1. Kylo, 2. Hux, 3. Rey, 4. The caretakers lol
@SheLitAFire

These are my favorites too! Glad to see some caretaker love here. I read that there is an extended deleted scene with them, so we have that to look forward to. Wink

I amuse myself by imaging that if I was in the FO, Hux would totally be my "work husband." We would smugly believe that we did the lion's share of the work, and share irritated glances with one another whenever one of our coworkers wasted our time by going on and on about their weekend plans or their silly family tales. Laughing
@LadyHa

I actually love how thr caretakers are pissed at Rey because she keeps messing stuff up. I get the impression that they are all about balance on the island, and they have enough imbalance with depressed Luke, they don't need hers too, lol.
@SoloSideCousin

I loved the caretakers, too. I know some people found their interactions with Rey as too comedic, but I thought they worked quite well. And I'm very glad that contrary to some rumors, Kylo didn't show up with the Kor and slaughter a bunch of them. And I am really looking forward to how that Caretaker rave/fertility festival turns out in the deleted scenes.
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Re: The Last Jedi: Our Reviews and Reactions

Post by SoloSideCousin on Thu 21 Dec 2017, 10:38 pm

@ISeeAnIsland wrote:I don't see how any Luke fan can be upset with how he died. (I get the ones being upset about him having thoughts of murdering his nephew.) To me, the defining thing about Luke in the OT was that he grew to have these amazing Force powers by the end, but his defining moment was one of pacificism.  I thought that his final scene reflected that beautifully.

@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@LadyHa wrote:
@SheLitAFire wrote:

Similar. My favorite in TLJ were 1. Kylo, 2. Hux, 3. Rey, 4. The caretakers lol
@SheLitAFire

These are my favorites too! Glad to see some caretaker love here. I read that there is an extended deleted scene with them, so we have that to look forward to. Wink

I amuse myself by imaging that if I was in the FO, Hux would totally be my "work husband." We would smugly believe that we did the lion's share of the work, and share irritated glances with one another whenever one of our coworkers wasted our time by going on and on about their weekend plans or their silly family tales. Laughing
@LadyHa

I actually love how thr caretakers are pissed at Rey because she keeps messing stuff up. I get the impression that they are all about balance on the island, and they have enough imbalance with depressed Luke, they don't need hers too, lol.
@SoloSideCousin

I loved the caretakers, too. I know some people found their interactions with Rey as too comedic, but I thought they worked quite well. And I'm very glad that contrary to some rumors, Kylo didn't show up with the Kor and slaughter a bunch of them. And I am really looking forward to how that Caretaker rave/fertility festival turns out in the deleted scenes.
@ISeeAnIsland

I agree with all this. Luke is brutal in his "final lesson" to his nephew, but what Luke did was like a baptism by fire for Ben. Maybe Luke doesn't save him-save him with Ben, but dammit, he cleared the deck of enough with Ben that Ben might actually be able to save himself. I don't know if he would have been capable of that had Luke not admitted he failed him, because Ben was probably so horrifically blindsided by Luke that he could never get his footing again.

Rian said in an interview that the intent to kill was an absolute dark side moment. And that moment had terrible consequences. But Rian said it just showed that anyone can fall into darkness, even Luke. And I would say especially Luke. Skywalker men are very volatile people. Luke doesn't get to get away totally clean like that. And holy crap, Luke went out like a legend. Dying to give everyone a chance for another day, dying to give his nephew the chance to save himself at all.
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Re: The Last Jedi: Our Reviews and Reactions

Post by Kessel on Thu 21 Dec 2017, 10:55 pm

I can't wait for the TLJ novelization. Not that I think it'll be the final authority on everything since things always differ a bit between the novel and the movie, but I think it'll help clarify some things. Probably even more so than the TFA novel did for TFA because it looks like many more changes were made to that script than were made to the TLJ script.

As far as reviews, a lot of them seem to focus around the treatment of Luke's character. From what I can tell, it's not about Rey and Kylo (which most people found was the highlight of the movie).  Irl, I've heard mostly good things from people. Only one person I know IRL truly disliked it and said Luke was too  "depressed" and shouldn't have just "disappeared" at the end.  Rolling Eyes My husband thought the Resistance part had plot holes, but he generally liked the movie. He's totally GA though.

@ISeeAnIsland - I thought the caretakers were rather amusing. I also liked that they defied the general expectation that Rey would just automatically be accepted on Ahch-to like she was with everyone in TFA. TLJ actually made me feel the weight of Rey's abandonment and past issues in a way TFA never did. While I loved TFA, a lot of Rey's scenes made it hard for me to reconcile that she was an abandoned/unwanted girl; most of her interactions were more light and fun adaventure with everyone immediately drawn to her like Finn.

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Re: The Last Jedi: Our Reviews and Reactions

Post by LadyHa on Thu 21 Dec 2017, 11:38 pm

@Kessel wrote:

@ISeeAnIsland - I thought the caretakers were rather amusing. I also liked that they defied the general expectation that Rey would just automatically be accepted on Ahch-to like she was with everyone in TFA. TLJ actually made me feel the weight of Rey's abandonment and past issues in a way TFA never did. While I loved TFA, a lot of Rey's scenes made it hard for me to reconcile that she was an abandoned/unwanted girl; most of her interactions were more light and fun adaventure with everyone immediately drawn to her like Finn.
@Kessel

I had thought there might be more metaphor in the film about the caretakers as a feminine symbol. There's a backstory in the VD about them, but we don't really see them enough in the film to glean any of that.  I was surprised that Rey had an antagonistic relationship with them.  When she first sees them, she says something dismissive like What are those things? After her sweetness towards BB8, I expected she would be more charmed by the creatures on the island.  Maybe her strained relationship with the caretakers signifies the beginning of a heroine's journey of separating from the feminine?
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Re: The Last Jedi: Our Reviews and Reactions

Post by snufkin on Thu 21 Dec 2017, 11:50 pm

Oh damn just thought of something else, if Ben/Kylo turned to Snoke after thinking Luke was going to murder him, no wonder Han's warning kept eating away at him. He already had one master attempt to kill him, so that likely fueled part of the reason why he finally did in Snoke (besides being power hungry and protecting Rey).
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Re: The Last Jedi: Our Reviews and Reactions

Post by MyOnlyHope on Fri 22 Dec 2017, 12:04 am

@LadyHa wrote:
@Kessel wrote:

@ISeeAnIsland - I thought the caretakers were rather amusing. I also liked that they defied the general expectation that Rey would just automatically be accepted on Ahch-to like she was with everyone in TFA. TLJ actually made me feel the weight of Rey's abandonment and past issues in a way TFA never did. While I loved TFA, a lot of Rey's scenes made it hard for me to reconcile that she was an abandoned/unwanted girl; most of her interactions were more light and fun adaventure with everyone immediately drawn to her like Finn.
@Kessel

I had thought there might be more metaphor in the film about the caretakers as a feminine symbol. There's a backstory in the VD about them, but we don't really see them enough in the film to glean any of that.  I was surprised that Rey had an antagonistic relationship with them.  When she first sees them, she says something dismissive like What are those things? After her sweetness towards BB8, I expected she would be more charmed by the creatures on the island.  Maybe her strained relationship with the caretakers signifies the beginning of a heroine's journey of separating from the feminine?
@LadyHa
There was a whole scene about the Lanai (caretaker species) cut from the movie. They're really not what they appear on the outside at all in that they're not nuns but rather a symbol of the unity of masculine and feminine. The females of the species, dressed in white, upkeep the structures on the island. The black clad males travel around on boats fishing for weeks at a time. The visual dictionary nicknames male Lanai "the visitors" since they only visit their females once a month. The longest deleted sequence in the movie involved Rey running in on one of their monthly celebrations. Part of the subtext of the scene is that these celebrations are really just procreation parties. Obviously some parallels can be drawn between the caretakers and their "visitors" and Rey and the black clad man "visiting" her.
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Re: The Last Jedi: Our Reviews and Reactions

Post by Reynak on Fri 22 Dec 2017, 12:33 am

I saw the movie again yesterday and liked it much more than the first time, it has flaws but I think it’s very good on the whole.

I guess the problem with fans is that we have expectations and this movie crushed some of them, perhaps too many. This is not Rian’s fault in general but ours. Instead of going there with an open mind and see what he had to offer storywise, we went there burdened with our expectatios, which prevented me from enjoying the movie fully the first time I saw it. At least this happened to me.

There are still things I don’t like but the movie improves dramatically on a second viewing, IMO.
I still have problems with the lack of continuity between TFA and TLJ because TFA set up several questions creating anticipation that TLJ jedi didn’t give a satisfying answer to, maybe because they mattered more to JJ than they did to Rian. For instance, when I fist saw TFA I thought Rey was a nobody and I told my son this and how poetic I thought it was. After more viewings I saw cinematographic language that hinted at Rey Kenoby or at DS origins, there were even hints at Rey Skywalker but her story with Kylo belied the latter. The problem is that movies are expected to surprise you and not being predictable and sometimes they go to far too achieve this. The effect of surprise is overvalued and very often it works against constructing a good story.

If these hints weren’t in TFA Rey nobody would have been a beautiful answer (the prince falling for a scavenger and adoring her) but if the movies must be seen as a whole it’s underwhelming. Too much fuss (encouraged by TFA and subsequent marketing) for an answer that works in TLJ but contradicts imagery present in TFA. TlJ works great in isolation but not so well if you see it as a continuation of the other movies. For me, this is the main problem.

It’s also a coral movie, not just focused on three main characters like the OT or TFA. This is fine in itself but it comes after TFA, which established three main protagonists. So raising Poe to protagonist status doesn’t feel satisfying to me, not because it doesn’t work in TLJ but because I don’t like a protagonist added in the second act of the trilogy. This isn’t how I’m used to having my stories told, I’m in for continuity in structure and didn’t feel comfortable with this change, I still don’t. I’d preferred having him as a secondary character and have Finn’s more developed because TFA manged to create that interest in Finn. Poe was no more than a plot device in TFA and that was fine, why chage it?

Anyway, as an independent movie, on it’s own, TLJ is damn good. I’m in for cohesion anyway, that’s why I have issues with it as a second episode in a trilogy and part of SW as a whole. I’d also liked the Force part of the story to be given more time because it was poignant and deep and the three actors involved gave fantastic performances. It’s no secret how good AD is, but Mark Hamill was incredible as Luke. And Daisy was only a few steps behind them because they are so damn good. She was really good for a younger actress.

By the way, the fight scene against Snoke can be seen as a metaphor for sex at least as regards subtext and yesterday I noticed how Kylo was lying on the floor after the explosion, on his side, as if he was sleeping. It was a bit strange for me the first time I saw it but now I think he was like a man who’s made love with a woman who made his world rock and when he wakes up from his sleep he’s alone in his bed. The girl went away without saying good bye or leaving him a note. He was furious after that, like a spurned lover. The visuals may suggest that.

He’s beyond himself after he wakes up all alone and wants to destroy the ungrateful lover ( blow that piece of junk out of the sky) in a fit of rage. When the rage abates he’s broken, though, yearning for her despite himself. He wants to hate her because he feels used and abandoned but he’s got it bad for her. He’s the image of heartbreak and crushed romantic feelings.

I also noticed how Hux looks at Kylo several times, that’s sheer hate in his eyes and his gaze looks chilling, nothing to do with his hilarious interactions with Poe, Snoke or Kylo himself. Kylo’d better beware but he won’t, because he is so lost in his own personal turmoil. This suggests Hux can take Snoke’s place as seriously bad guy and Domnall can pull it off. I don’t think Kylo will be the villain, he doesn’t give that vibe, his body language never suggests that and Driver is a fine actor. If he was really evil we’d have felt it. I never had that impression, with Hux I did. He tried to shoot Kylo when he was unconscious and he’ll try to destroy him again, no doubt. And he’s a cur, like Snoke said, a cur who hates Kylo in a cold way, as cold as his intent to destroy the Resistance.

I loved those dice that passed from one Skywalker to another, the three of them, Han’s dice and that Snoke called Kylo young Solo and told him he had his father’s heart. I think this may be foreshadowing. He’s his father’s son, not only Vader’s spawn. And he may not be strong enough for the DS because, unlike Anakin, he’s got a soft heart like Han did. In the OT Han Solo saved Luke and made it possible for the Resistance to win. Also, Rey said to Luke Ben was their only hope if Luke didn’t want to come back. This should mean he will be crucial to save the day in lX if there’s continuity.


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Re: The Last Jedi: Our Reviews and Reactions

Post by motherofpearl1 on Fri 22 Dec 2017, 12:54 am

@MyOnlyHope wrote:@FrolickingFizzgig Definitely. Why do we think he reiterates in almost every interview he does that "It's not his story anymore. [He] had [his] beginning, middle and end." He probably wants to convince himself of that fact just as much as anyone watching.

I found Rian's exploration of Luke to be absolutely perfect. What was it Rian said? Something about how Luke has never been great at fighting but has always been great at saving people? I couldn't agree more. Sorry Luke fans, but it's the truth. His scene with Yoda is incredible. He still feels exactly like the Luke I love from the OT, even down to the little traces of whininess and resignation. His death scene is one of the most poetic images I've ever witnessed. He dies staring out at the horizon, as much the dreamer in that moment as he always has been. Most importantly, he dies defying Yoda's words about concentrating on what's in front of him to the very end lmfao.
@MyOnlyHope

Couldn't put it better myself. As a fan of the OT, although their fate is bittersweet, I'm not sorry, because they all lived lives to the full, and ultimately Han and Luke went out the heroes they always were. I'm disappointed at long time fans and their anger, because TLJ features Mark's finest performance, and it's a shame they aren't enjoying it.
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Re: The Last Jedi: Our Reviews and Reactions

Post by shii405 on Fri 22 Dec 2017, 1:00 am

@Reynak wrote:I guess the problem with fans is that we have expectations and this movie crushed some of them, perhaps too many. This is not Rian’s fault in general but ours. Instead of going there with an open mind and see what he had to offer storywise, we went there budened with our expectstios, which prevented me to enjoy the movie fully the first time I saw it. At least this happened to me.

@Reynak

ITA. I went into the theater with full-Reylo mode on, lol. That was really bad. I tried to erase my Reylo expectation and make it zero, to no avail. Because I have been reading Reylo for two years. Unless I stay away from this fandom for two years, I am destined for not enjoying IX too, I think. I'm doomed, lol
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Re: The Last Jedi: Our Reviews and Reactions

Post by ISeeAnIsland on Fri 22 Dec 2017, 1:17 am

I'll throw this out there...

I wonder if there would have been fewer issues with the film being so divisive if LF hadn't been so secretive about TLJ all along. I get wanting to protect their big twists, but in hindsight, we knew very very little about the plot of the movie going into it. I know that for some of us, it was fun being completely surprised, but perhaps marketing could have done a better job to set the expectations of the traditional fanboys? e.g. They could have started with outright debunking Reywalker...
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Re: The Last Jedi: Our Reviews and Reactions

Post by Kessel on Fri 22 Dec 2017, 1:19 am

@MyOnlyHope wrote:
@LadyHa wrote:
@Kessel wrote:

@ISeeAnIsland - I thought the caretakers were rather amusing. I also liked that they defied the general expectation that Rey would just automatically be accepted on Ahch-to like she was with everyone in TFA. TLJ actually made me feel the weight of Rey's abandonment and past issues in a way TFA never did. While I loved TFA, a lot of Rey's scenes made it hard for me to reconcile that she was an abandoned/unwanted girl; most of her interactions were more light and fun adaventure with everyone immediately drawn to her like Finn.
@Kessel

I had thought there might be more metaphor in the film about the caretakers as a feminine symbol. There's a backstory in the VD about them, but we don't really see them enough in the film to glean any of that.  I was surprised that Rey had an antagonistic relationship with them.  When she first sees them, she says something dismissive like What are those things? After her sweetness towards BB8, I expected she would be more charmed by the creatures on the island.  Maybe her strained relationship with the caretakers signifies the beginning of a heroine's journey of separating from the feminine?
@LadyHa
There was a whole scene about the Lanai (caretaker species) cut from the movie. They're really not what they appear on the outside at all in that they're not nuns but rather a symbol of the unity of masculine and feminine. The females of the species, dressed in white, upkeep the structures on the island. The black clad males travel around on boats fishing for weeks at a time. The visual dictionary nicknames male Lanai "the visitors" since they only visit their females once a month. The longest deleted sequence in the movie involved Rey running in on one of their monthly celebrations. Part of the subtext of the scene is that these celebrations are really just procreation parties. Obviously some parallels can be drawn between the caretakers and their "visitors" and Rey and the black clad man "visiting" her.
@MyOnlyHope

That is such fascinating symbolism. It really shows what Rian was going for in the development of Rey's character. I can't wait to hear more of his commentary.

It's a shame so much of the fandom is unable to appreciate, much less recognize so many of these things.

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Re: The Last Jedi: Our Reviews and Reactions

Post by shii405 on Fri 22 Dec 2017, 1:24 am

@ISeeAnIsland wrote:I'll throw this out there...

I wonder if there would have been fewer issues with the film being so divisive if LF hadn't been so secretive about TLJ all along.  I get wanting to protect their big twists, but in hindsight, we knew very very little about the plot of the movie going into it.  I know that for some of us, it was fun being completely surprised, but perhaps marketing could have done a better job to set the expectations of the traditional fanboys?  e.g. They could have started with outright debunking Reywalker...
@ISeeAnIsland

I dont think it will make a difference at all. Remember that fanboy asking Pablo why the marketing is baiting Reylo? The marketing can go all the way screaming Rey is a nobody, and the fanboys would still be stubborn enough to refuse to acknowledge that.

It is inevitable. Rian can go make what the fanboys want, and he would still be criticized by the critics for not bringing something new to the franchise. Either way, its not a perfect world. No movie can satisfy every people who watch it.

All everyone need right now is time. Time to cool down and think it over. Because its a very emotional piece for every SW fan. It took time for people to realize TPM suck despite all the hype and excitement of Star Wars Return. It took time for people to realize that ESB is the best movie in SW history. I don't know which one TLJ will be, we'll find out in a few years after IX, Solo, and more Star Wars movies come out and people will start comparing them with TLJ.
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Re: The Last Jedi: Our Reviews and Reactions

Post by Night Huntress on Fri 22 Dec 2017, 1:48 am

@ISeeAnIsland wrote:I'll throw this out there...

I wonder if there would have been fewer issues with the film being so divisive if LF hadn't been so secretive about TLJ all along.  I get wanting to protect their big twists, but in hindsight, we knew very very little about the plot of the movie going into it.  I know that for some of us, it was fun being completely surprised, but perhaps marketing could have done a better job to set the expectations of the traditional fanboys?  e.g. They could have started with outright debunking Reywalker...
@ISeeAnIsland

Yes, I agree- the problem is they made this huge mystery out of Rey's origins and in the end it wasn't important - at least not how many fans expected... her being related to any legacy character like Obi-Wan. Many still can't let go of that idea... I' never saw her in that way, but I can understand where they're coming from.

I was thinking for a while why so many fans had an issue with TLJ. I think the main problem is, they wanted to make it too unpredictable... not to mock the fandom like many saying, but to surprise even the most smart, invested theorizers among us.
So you have this huge fandom with millions of imaginative people theorizing and discussing for 2 years all kind of plots and possibilities - and you want to outsmart them all somehow.... Confus
Not easy and only possible if you give away next to nothing and gently lead them to the wrong conclusions... or at least never really openly debunk them.

They succeed in surprise the most of as all right- but it backfired because all those secrets and mysteries made the expectations unbelievable high. Everyone wanted their own headcanon to be confirmed - and even the Reylos weren't happy because through we got what we hoped for (Rey randon- obvious, romantic connection to Kylo) it didn't go the way we expected.
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Re: The Last Jedi: Our Reviews and Reactions

Post by Lily Snape on Fri 22 Dec 2017, 1:50 am

My daughter (15) finally saw it-- hopped into the car and announced, "I have a new favorite Star Wars movie." Smile She's a smart cookie, and not much got past her and her friend-- particularly Rey looking at Ben's lips or grabbing his thigh during the lightsaber battle.  The Luke stuff didn't surprise her or strike her as OOC the way it did me-- but I grew up with Star Wars, with Luke as the ultimate hero, so there's that.  She and her friends loved the hand touching scene.  And she's beyond ready for Rey and Ben to finally get together in IX.  The whole thing was so much more Reylo than she ever dreamed, and the "Hi, I'm Poe" thing annoyed her because she realized she will have two years of trying to convince people that Rey and Poe are not a thing.  It was cute seeing her excitement.  Smile

Editing to add: she went to the theater with a group of girls, and they all got each other Star Wars swag for Christmas.  T-shirts, Funko Pop toys, you name it.  LucasFilm has to be aware of this.  Star Wars was for girls too back in 1980 when I saw ESB in the theater, but they have a devoted young female audience now, and I don't think they're going to ignore the women just to appease the old guys.  And I'm married to one of the old guys, but unlike some of his peers, he's happy to see the story develop.   Wink


Last edited by Lily Snape on Fri 22 Dec 2017, 1:56 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: The Last Jedi: Our Reviews and Reactions

Post by Darth_Awakened on Fri 22 Dec 2017, 1:52 am

@ISeeAnIsland wrote:I'll throw this out there...

I wonder if there would have been fewer issues with the film being so divisive if LF hadn't been so secretive about TLJ all along. I get wanting to protect their big twists, but in hindsight, we knew very very little about the plot of the movie going into it. I know that for some of us, it was fun being completely surprised, but perhaps marketing could have done a better job to set the expectations of the traditional fanboys? e.g. They could have started with outright debunking Reywalker...
@ISeeAnIsland

I can answer it with YES and NO. lol!
YES when it comes to various SW fanbases - but I'am not sure if that YES can be applicable for the GA - which, given the first reactions and Box Office numbers really doesn't care about many things we do.
On the other hand I can agree -on Reywalker debunk as a possible option to prepare traditional fanboys in advance - which wouldn't effect the GA opinion at all.
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Re: The Last Jedi: Our Reviews and Reactions

Post by Ynqve on Fri 22 Dec 2017, 3:18 am

@ISeeAnIsland wrote:I'll throw this out there...

I wonder if there would have been fewer issues with the film being so divisive if LF hadn't been so secretive about TLJ all along. I get wanting to protect their big twists, but in hindsight, we knew very very little about the plot of the movie going into it. I know that for some of us, it was fun being completely surprised, but perhaps marketing could have done a better job to set the expectations of the traditional fanboys? e.g. They could have started with outright debunking Reywalker...
@ISeeAnIsland

I agree that they could have debunked more (or at least tried to manage fan expectations for Snoke and Reywalker). But even if LF and J.J. begin to debunk popular fan theories no one is going to believe them after the whole "Benedict Cumberbatch isn't playing Khan" thing.
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Re: The Last Jedi: Our Reviews and Reactions

Post by AnneNeville on Fri 22 Dec 2017, 5:24 am

@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:
@vaderito wrote:@Rimfaxe96

54% audience score rating on Rotten Tomatoes and still falling strongly (yesterday it was 55%) - I find it hard to believe that all those 133000+ ratings are done by bots..

They are real. Studio may try to spin it as that it's bots but boxoffice is falling too, though part of the problem is that holidays fall on unfavorable days. But based on feedback from RL that I'm receiving, people thought that tone was off, jokes lame, 80% of the movie pointless ("nothing ever happens"), too many pointless characters, languid pacing. They loved the fight with the Guards, enjoyed Rey, Kylo and Luke scenes, didn't care for the rest cause they thought it was pure filler. pretty much what negative reviews that aren't about destroyed headcanons or feminism are saying.

IMO, people don't like it that much. It's a movie that's made more for critics sensibilities than broader audience (relatively speaking cause any movie passing 1 billion worldwide and opening with over 200M is clearly for broader audience).
@vaderito
This hasn't been my experience at all. Everybody I've talked to loved it.

Saying this RT audience score is "real" is like saying 85% or whatever Justice League/Suicice Squad have are "real". Audience scores are going to be massively skewed no matter what for a film like this. They always illicit strong reactions, be that positive or negative, and the negativity is always louder.
@FrolickingFizzgig

People I've talked to really liked it, too.
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Re: The Last Jedi: Our Reviews and Reactions

Post by AnneNeville on Fri 22 Dec 2017, 5:48 am

@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:
@vaderito wrote:@Rimfaxe96

54% audience score rating on Rotten Tomatoes and still falling strongly (yesterday it was 55%) - I find it hard to believe that all those 133000+ ratings are done by bots..

They are real. Studio may try to spin it as that it's bots but boxoffice is falling too, though part of the problem is that holidays fall on unfavorable days. But based on feedback from RL that I'm receiving, people thought that tone was off, jokes lame, 80% of the movie pointless ("nothing ever happens"), too many pointless characters, languid pacing. They loved the fight with the Guards, enjoyed Rey, Kylo and Luke scenes, didn't care for the rest cause they thought it was pure filler. pretty much what negative reviews that aren't about destroyed headcanons or feminism are saying.

IMO, people don't like it that much. It's a movie that's made more for critics sensibilities than broader audience (relatively speaking cause any movie passing 1 billion worldwide and opening with over 200M is clearly for broader audience).
@vaderito
This hasn't been my experience at all. Everybody I've talked to loved it.

Saying this RT audience score is "real" is like saying 85% or whatever Justice League/Suicice Squad have are "real". Audience scores are going to be massively skewed no matter what for a film like this. They always illicit strong reactions, be that positive or negative, and the negativity is always louder.
@FrolickingFizzgig

People I've talked to really liked it, too.
@Rei of Sunshine wrote:My beef with this whole "audience doesn't like TLJ" is that it was practically spurned by Mark Hamill.

He basically gave them permission to dislike the movie. most, if not all, of those who probably rated TLJ a low score are likely Luke fans who took to Mark's words that he did not like how Luke was written.

Honestly, I like the guy, but everytime I encounter an interview of him talking about how 'this is not my Luke Skywalker' I get annoyed. Because it's as if Mark also doesn't get the point why or how Luke got to that state. It's not his story anymore. It's Rey's and Kylo's. and all this sourgraping and backtracking is confusing fans. Heck, Carrie complained too, but the way she does it, she doesn't undersell Star Wars. She shows that her problems lies with real world problems, such as portrayal of women, or better characterization for women, or opportunities for actresses. Meanwhile, Mark's problems all feel self centered about Luke. "Luke wouldn't do this do that." He's pretty much like Luke who loves to complain.

If Mark refrained from complaining so much, fanboys would be less critical and biased on their opinions.
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I'm not a Luke fanboy, but his turn to bitterness makes sense to me. Idealists become the greatest cynics.
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