Anything you see anew in The Force Awakens after watching The Last Jedi?

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Re: Anything you see anew in The Force Awakens after watching The Last Jedi?

Post by nickandnora on Fri 2 Feb - 0:25

I'm probably preaching to the choir here, but I happened to stumble upon a few comments about Rey and Kylo's interrogation scene from before TLJ came out (it's not important which ones - some were on reddit, and some were on youtube). They had to do with Kylo saying "You imagine an ocean; I see it. I see the island." So most of the comments are basically like:

"Rey had premonitions of Luke's island!"
"Kylo was seeing Luke's island and didn't even realize it, lol!"
"The island at the end was the island Rey has pictured her whole life, OMG."

But... isn't this in the same vein as Maz's "There's someone who still could (come back)"? The story rather coyly wants you to think "it's Luke!" Similarly the story kind of wants you to think "Ahch-To is THE island she used to imagine!" But... it's probably not. I mean, maybe in some ways, but not really. (Which is kind of similar to Luke returning... he kind of does, but... not really).

Also: I took those lines about the island to mean that it's something that Rey pictures to escape from the dreary reality of her life on Jakku. Just like she projects "father figure" onto Han and then onto Luke, she later might be projecting "this is my island" onto Ahch-To when she first sees it... but it's not.

My point: we haven't encountered the actual person who comes back in the narrative yet, and we haven't encountered Rey's island yet. Does everyone agree, or was I just reading the island thing wrong?

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Re: Anything you see anew in The Force Awakens after watching The Last Jedi?

Post by ISeeAnIsland on Fri 2 Feb - 0:43

@nickandnora wrote:I'm probably preaching to the choir here, but I happened to stumble upon a few comments about Rey and Kylo's interrogation scene from before TLJ came out (it's not important which ones - some were on reddit, and some were on youtube). They had to do with Kylo saying "You imagine an ocean; I see it. I see the island." So most of the comments are basically like:

"Rey had premonitions of Luke's island!"
"Kylo was seeing Luke's island and didn't even realize it, lol!"
"The island at the end was the island Rey has pictured her whole life, OMG."

But... isn't this in the same vein as Maz's "There's someone who still could (come back)"? The story rather coyly wants you to think "it's Luke!" Similarly the story kind of wants you to think "Ahch-To is THE island she used to imagine!" But... it's probably not. I mean, maybe in some ways, but not really. (Which is kind of similar to Luke returning... he kind of does, but... not really).

Also: I took those lines about the island to mean that it's something that Rey pictures to escape from the dreary reality of her life on Jakku. Just like she projects "father figure" onto Han and then onto Luke, she later might be projecting "this is my island" onto Ahch-To when she first sees it... but it's not.

My point: we haven't encountered the actual person who comes back in the narrative yet, and we haven't encountered Rey's island yet. Does everyone agree, or was I just reading the island thing wrong?
@nickandnora

Popular opinion here is that "Ben Solo" is the person who comes back. I certainly think that's more likely than Luke at this point, since Rey didn't really bring Luke "back".

As far as whether we've seen "the island" yet, I think it's very possible that we haven't. On the other hand, Rey did say in TLJ that she'd seen the Jedi library "in dreams" before. So, we know that she's dreamt about Ahch-To on some level before.
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Re: Anything you see anew in The Force Awakens after watching The Last Jedi?

Post by nickandnora on Fri 2 Feb - 1:48

@ISeeAnIsland wrote:
@nickandnora wrote:I'm probably preaching to the choir here, but I happened to stumble upon a few comments about Rey and Kylo's interrogation scene from before TLJ came out (it's not important which ones - some were on reddit, and some were on youtube). They had to do with Kylo saying "You imagine an ocean; I see it. I see the island." So most of the comments are basically like:

"Rey had premonitions of Luke's island!"
"Kylo was seeing Luke's island and didn't even realize it, lol!"
"The island at the end was the island Rey has pictured her whole life, OMG."

But... isn't this in the same vein as Maz's "There's someone who still could (come back)"? The story rather coyly wants you to think "it's Luke!" Similarly the story kind of wants you to think "Ahch-To is THE island she used to imagine!" But... it's probably not. I mean, maybe in some ways, but not really. (Which is kind of similar to Luke returning... he kind of does, but... not really).

Also: I took those lines about the island to mean that it's something that Rey pictures to escape from the dreary reality of her life on Jakku. Just like she projects "father figure" onto Han and then onto Luke, she later might be projecting "this is my island" onto Ahch-To when she first sees it... but it's not.

My point: we haven't encountered the actual person who comes back in the narrative yet, and we haven't encountered Rey's island yet. Does everyone agree, or was I just reading the island thing wrong?
@nickandnora

Popular opinion here is that "Ben Solo" is the person who comes back.  I certainly think that's more likely than Luke at this point, since Rey didn't really bring Luke "back".  

As far as whether we've seen "the island" yet, I think it's very possible that we haven't.  On the other hand, Rey did say in TLJ that she'd seen the Jedi library "in dreams" before. So, we know that she's dreamt about Ahch-To on some level before.
@ISeeAnIsland

I'm actually even skeptical of her seeing the Jedi library before. I'm skeptical of all of it that references Luke, and Ahch-To because something about it isn't narratively satisfying (probably because it's Act II and Luke's story is over, and I doubt she's going to return to Ahch-To in IX, so I don't see the significance). The Jedi texts could in and of themselves be significant, but Yoda all but scoffs at that.

It's like... all of these films play heavily on the theme of duality, right? The book of TFA says that she had seen "this man" before, in a dream, in a nightmare. What if that applies to everything else? What she's seen so far (Luke, Ahch-To, the library) isn't "the dream"... it's "the nightmare" just like we can suppose Kylo is the nightmare and Ben is the dream. Basically: she hasn't seen the "good dream" version of these things yet.

(Hope that made some sense. It was my roundabout way of saying that I think we're going to see a lot of things happen twice.)

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Re: Anything you see anew in The Force Awakens after watching The Last Jedi?

Post by snufkin on Fri 2 Feb - 16:10

One detail that panned out was the whole "you're my guest" line. Which at the time it was like, ok weirdo. You sincerely think that you chivalrously separated Rey from the friends you think are a bad influence on her? And that she'll be so flattered by your attention that she'll turn over the map and then the two of you will go hang out together? Like that ended about as well as it could have. Because if Rey hadn't Jedi Mind Tricked James Bond, the Throne Room scene would've happened as the finale of TFA. Except that Ben would've followed orders and killed Rey instead of Han. She's continually the wild card the Force throws into situations to upend the predictable outcome (which also works on a meta level when it comes to fan expectations).

But the interesting thing about revisiting that scenario was the use of that specific word, Guest. Because its traditional implication goes back to more dangerous times when travelers had to depend on the goodwill and patronage of their hosts. Somebody being your meant that they are your responsibility and under your protection. So when Rey arrive there and was threatened by Snoke, Ben responded accordingly.
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Re: Anything you see anew in The Force Awakens after watching The Last Jedi?

Post by giaciak2 on Mon 5 Feb - 12:03

Oh my God, in the Italian version. The voice, "but there is someone who can still come back", followed by the vision of "Kylo with the knights of Ren". It makes me think of "Ben". there are also words. I'll come back, honey, I promise. He does not look like a father voice ... he seems like a lover who says. "If someone has not returned before. I will do it for you". Or at least I interpreted it like that.
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Re: Anything you see anew in The Force Awakens after watching The Last Jedi?

Post by JustMe on Tue 6 Feb - 15:38

In TFA, when Rey first meets BB8, she asks BB8 where he/she comes from, BB8 says something (I don't speak that language) and Rey says "Classified? Me, too. Big Secret." Now when I see this, I think of all the hoopla about who are Rey's parents, what is her backstory. But she says, "Big Secret".

Another thing I notice is how much I like BB8 in TFA. In TLJ, BB8 is used in a gimicky way, just for some laughs. BUt in TFA, BB8 is so expressive, showing so many emotions, with a drooping head, or backing up in alarm, or the variety of sounds.

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Re: Anything you see anew in The Force Awakens after watching The Last Jedi?

Post by snufkin on Wed 21 Feb - 23:02

It's occurred to me after Poe's "arc" in TLJ how completely not suited he was for the mission to find and persuade Luke to help out. If he'd just got the map from LST w/out Kylo, Finn, Phasma, and Company showing up and instead headed off to Ache-to, he would've just tossed a chair and yelled at Luke for not cooperating like his tantrum with Holdo. At least with Rey, she's both FS and completely stubborn in terms of sticking around and patiently pestering Luke.
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Re: Anything you see anew in The Force Awakens after watching The Last Jedi?

Post by Dar-ren19 on Fri 23 Feb - 0:37

@snufkin wrote:It's occurred to me after Poe's "arc" in TLJ how completely not suited he was for the mission to find and persuade Luke to help out. If he'd just got the map from LST w/out Kylo, Finn, Phasma, and Company showing up and instead headed off to Ache-to, he would've just tossed a chair and yelled at Luke for not cooperating like his tantrum with Holdo. At least with Rey, she's both FS and completely stubborn in terms of sticking around and patiently pestering Luke.

@snufkin

True, but she didn't really finish the job. Yoda did it in the end.
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Re: Anything you see anew in The Force Awakens after watching The Last Jedi?

Post by snufkin on Fri 23 Feb - 1:50

@Dar-ren19 Still did a better job than Poe would've done!
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Re: Anything you see anew in The Force Awakens after watching The Last Jedi?

Post by Dar-ren19 on Fri 23 Feb - 2:03

@snufkin wrote:@Dar-ren19 Still did a better job than Poe would've done!
@snufkin

true, true Razz Laughing
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Re: Anything you see anew in The Force Awakens after watching The Last Jedi?

Post by MrsWindu on Fri 23 Feb - 18:51

I rewatched The Cinematic Journey in the bonus video earlier and never noticed part of dialogue that was shot at the Resistance base between Han and Leia (part of the ‘I never should have sent him to Luke’ scene I’m assuming) but must have eventually ended up being cut-
Leia : You could always see him clearer than I did.
Han : I don’t know what I saw.

Im sure they’re talking about Ben, so I don’t know what I never spotted this before? I realise it was cut but it seems to imply Han may have understood Ben a little better according to Leia? Idk
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Re: Anything you see anew in The Force Awakens after watching The Last Jedi?

Post by snufkin on Fri 23 Feb - 19:35

@MrsWindu I think they're working on a theme of how much father and son really were like each other and that deep down, the force powers are the only trait Ben really inherited from his mother's side of the family. That if he does survive the ST, it'll be about coming to terms with his father and how he's more like that side of his family.
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Re: Anything you see anew in The Force Awakens after watching The Last Jedi?

Post by Teo oswald on Fri 23 Feb - 19:37

if you take away the impossible what remains for how much
  unlikely must be the truth
everyone believed that the one who would come back was Luke. in the last Jedi we see Luke die so it is clear that the only person left is the one that not everyone would have expected. and in fact many Reylo fans said that it was Ben Solo who would return. I believe it Smile
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Re: Anything you see anew in The Force Awakens after watching The Last Jedi?

Post by MrsWindu on Fri 23 Feb - 19:45

@snufkin wrote:@MrsWindu I think they're working on a theme of how much father and son really were like each other and that deep down, the force powers are the only trait Ben really inherited from his mother's side of the family. That if he does survive the ST, it'll be about coming to terms with his father and how he's more like that side of his family.
@snufkin

I can see from recent discussions here, how this will be the case. I might have teared up a bit reading that - It’s been an emotional week. Ben had better darned well survive the ST.
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Re: Anything you see anew in The Force Awakens after watching The Last Jedi?

Post by DeeBee on Fri 23 Feb - 22:59

@MrsWindu wrote:I rewatched The Cinematic Journey in the bonus video earlier and never noticed part of dialogue that was shot at the Resistance base between Han and Leia (part of the ‘I never should have sent him to Luke’ scene I’m assuming) but must have eventually ended up being cut-
Leia : You could always see him clearer than I did.
Han : I don’t know what I saw.

Im sure they’re talking about Ben, so I don’t know what I never spotted this before? I realise it was cut but it seems to imply Han may have understood Ben a little better according to Leia? Idk
@MrsWindu

Whoooo this is wonderful! thanks for sharing MrsWindu!

I've never seen TFA bonus materials.. but I don't have a blu-ray player.. can I still watch them? anyone?
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Re: Anything you see anew in The Force Awakens after watching The Last Jedi?

Post by cherrylipstick on Sat 24 Feb - 3:48

@MrsWindu wrote:I rewatched The Cinematic Journey in the bonus video earlier and never noticed part of dialogue that was shot at the Resistance base between Han and Leia (part of the ‘I never should have sent him to Luke’ scene I’m assuming) but must have eventually ended up being cut-
Leia : You could always see him clearer than I did.
Han : I don’t know what I saw.

Im sure they’re talking about Ben, so I don’t know what I never spotted this before? I realise it was cut but it seems to imply Han may have understood Ben a little better according to Leia? Idk


@MrsWindu

I had not seen that part either, but it definitely looks interesting!
I think that it is linked with this idea expressed in TLJ, where the bond and a certain resemblance between Ben and his father are stated several times, by Snoke at the beginning but also with the dice at the end. I think that they want to emphasize the idea that Ben is not so much a Skywalker (despite his powers and the mighty lineage) but rather a young Solo. And I honestly like it very much!

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Re: Anything you see anew in The Force Awakens after watching The Last Jedi?

Post by BB-Rey on Thu 1 Mar - 17:58

We also have Kylo say his son is gone and was weak and foolish like his Father. So, I really wonder what it was that made him feel this way? Apart from Snoke. As I don't think Snoke is the only reason. Maybe he is.

I was just watching a bit of TFA and noticed how Hux and Kylo discuss his personal interests getting in the way of orders from Snoke when it comes to Luke. It immediately made me think of the confrontation between Kylo and Luke where Kylo tells Luke that he sure he is sorry. That really stings even more now than before. Han's "Yeah I knew him, I knew Luke" has the same effect.


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Re: Anything you see anew in The Force Awakens after watching The Last Jedi?

Post by Ramblingrose on Mon 5 Mar - 5:32

@snufkin wrote:@Piper Maru It also kind of explains why he lashed out at LST like that, because the reference to his family was "yeah they tried to murder me. think I'll be like Vader instead."

He's 2 for 2 now with endings, humiliated and dumped by Rey.
@snufkin

My thought is that LST is a grizzled, tough old warrior who purposefully goaded Kylo so he will get a quick death, not be captured and interrogated to give up what he knows about the map. At that point in the movie, he thinks Poe has escaped. He is talking to Kylo to buy time for Poe too.
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Re: Anything you see anew in The Force Awakens after watching The Last Jedi?

Post by DeeBee on Mon 5 Mar - 21:29

@Ramblingrose wrote:
@snufkin wrote:
It also kind of explains why he lashed out at LST like that, because the reference to his family was "yeah they tried to murder me. think I'll be like Vader instead."

He's 2 for 2 now with endings, humiliated and dumped by Rey.
@snufkin

My thought is that LST is a grizzled, tough old warrior who purposefully goaded Kylo so he will get a quick death, not be captured and interrogated to give up what he knows about the map. At that point in the movie, he thinks Poe has escaped. He is talking to Kylo to buy time for Poe too.
@Ramblingrose

Whooo I like this Ramblingrose! A bit of foreshadowing for Luke in TLJ.

Also snufkin - good point. I agree! Ouchie.. yeah I can't deny my family tried to kill me!
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Re: Anything you see anew in The Force Awakens after watching The Last Jedi?

Post by nickandnora on Thu 22 Mar - 14:13

I don't know what made me think of this today, but at the time that The Force Awakens came out did any of you ever have a discussion about the theory that maybe Kylo didn't technically kill Han? What I mean is, is there the slightest possibility that Han actually pressed the "trigger" or whatever on that lightsaber himself? I know it's doesn't *look* like it from the scene, but it doesn't *not* look like it either, if that makes sense, lol.

Connected to this, it's a curious thing that we're two movies in and we still haven't been shown for certain the exact moment that Ben Solo decided: "OK, I'm going to give into Snoke." Add to this the emphasis by Adam and Daisy that "Kylo thinks he's doing the right thing" and I'm just wondering if it's possible that Ben initially gave into the darkside by choice and for almost heroic reasons, thinking that by doing so he could somehow save the galaxy. And his appeal to his grandfather's helmet and Rey's reading of his deepest fear ("You'll never be as strong as Darth Vader") is a little more complex than: "Help me be evil like you grandfather." Could "what you started" actually be: "dismantling the Empire from the inside, once and for all"? And his deepest fear about not being strong like Vader is, on some level, fear that he's not strong enough to journey into the Underworld and then make his way out again once he's finished? Of course, the road to hell is paved with good intentions and at some point one becomes the monster they were hunting all along. If this was his undertaking, he was doomed to fail perhaps because of some inability to address how resentful he was of his parents and Luke, and it was this anger that consumed him along the way and created the "monster" he is today.

But yeah anyway, I just wonder if we're going to find out that there was some ambiguity about what actually happened on that bridge with Han. Dare I say it... did Han shoot first so that Ben wouldn't have to? It's a curious thing that Ben looks so damn hurt every single time Rey insinuates that he's a monster/murderer. The writing of their third force bond session was very tricky as well, with Ben not being the one to say that he killed his father, getting Rey to say it instead, and then never answering her damn question to begin with. Hmmm.

It would be very Pride and Prejudice. Just saying.

Anyway, I guess my main purpose in posting was to see if these discussions had already been had.

(ETA: If it were true, it might actually mean that Ben's lowest point, like his lowest of the low points was not actually the moment he killed his father, or gave into Snoke, or any other moment. It was in fact, Crait, where at the precipice of "what needed to be done" for the greater good in his mind, he almost kills Luke (had he been there), and Leia, and Rey, and destroys "all of it" in the process. It would explain why Rian contrasted that moment of Kylo seeing Rey on the Falcon as that moment just before Anakin goes into the helmet. At that moment, Kylo is actually in a hell of his own making, "greater good" or not. The difference is, it's not too late for him because the irreversible still hasn't happened.)

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Re: Anything you see anew in The Force Awakens after watching The Last Jedi?

Post by Dar-ren19 on Thu 22 Mar - 18:47

@nickandnora I get where you’re going with the Han death, but to me, the horrified surprise on Han’s face seemed to point in the direction of Ben pulling the trigger, no?
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Re: Anything you see anew in The Force Awakens after watching The Last Jedi?

Post by snufkin on Thu 22 Mar - 20:33

Yeah I don't think that it'll turn out Han pulled the trigger on himself. More that his sacrifice was finally stepping up and putting himself out there as Ben's father, the man who should've lead him in his moral education and understanding of being the right type of man as part of his arc of finally overcoming his own selfish nature (which isn't there a quote about that from Leia's PoV in the TLJ novel). That he sacrifices himself and in turn, the fallout is that it starts to free Ben from Snoke's control and when the actual moment comes to complete his training (Snoke's order to execute Rey), he's able to save her and break free from Snoke. Story isn't complete yet, but Leia's line to him in TFA is that "we can save him" and Han starts that process. Rest is up to Ben.
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Re: Anything you see anew in The Force Awakens after watching The Last Jedi?

Post by nickandnora on Thu 22 Mar - 20:44

@Dar-ren19 wrote:@nickandnora I get where you’re going with the Han death, but to me, the horrified surprise on Han’s face seemed to point in the direction of Ben pulling the trigger, no?
@Dar-ren19

I thought so too, though to be fair, even if a person was like, "I'm going to stab myself with this lightsaber now" the shock of how it actually feels could also elicit that surprise on one's face. Smile

I just thought it was an interesting idea, that there was more meaning to that conversation and situation b/w Han and Ben than meets the eye from Rey/Finn/Chewy's perspective.

If nothing else, the fact that the scene has Han's hand directly gripping the lightsaber is an interesting choice.

Definitely more interesting to me though is the idea that the moment Ben finally surrendered to the dark side didn't have to do with Luke, or Leia, or Han, or anything that on the face of it involved turning out of anger or abandonment. I like the idea that it was an extremely altruistic (or misguided, depending on how you look at it) act of heroism (and hubris at the same time) thinking that he could sacrifice himself and save the world. I would like it because they keep hinting at reasons or moment when/why he turned, but I think it would be neat if as it turns out, those moments were only what ate away at him once he'd already turned, if that makes sense. Kind of like, "No, I can do this, the dark side won't consume me, I don't have enough fear or anger to let it" and it turns out he was wrong.

It would also be another neat inverse-Anakin thing; Anakin turned because he thought it could save one person, so perhaps Ben turned because he thought it could save the galaxy.

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Re: Anything you see anew in The Force Awakens after watching The Last Jedi?

Post by nickandnora on Sat 24 Mar - 11:00

Sorry, I know we're not supposed to double post, but I just wanted to add to a possibility above. ^

I agree the reason that the "Han activated the lightsaber" theory is really interesting but doesn't *quite* work is because it requires a level of foresight that I don't think Han has, nor did he EVER possess. Han is a character who acts on pure instinct; I find it extremely hard to believe that in the space of 10 seconds he was able to reason out that Snoke wanted Ben to kill him, so they had to make it look like Ben killed him, so he could go back to Snoke and... etc. etc. Doesn't work. If one wants to believe the "Han killed himself" theory, then there has to be another reason for it, one that involves pure reaction, not thinking...

And you know, there is a possibility that makes sense (if we just look at movie context alone):

Strip away the background of the scene. Remove it from space, and Jedi, and Sith, and Star Wars and everything. Make it about a father, a son, and what Ben actually says to Han. What does he say: "I want to be free of this pain."

Transfer that line to a modern day adolescent (and we know that Kylo is supposed to represent this). If a kid came to an adult and said this, what is one interpretation we might have of their mental state? That they were suicidal.

So... what if...Kylo/Ben meant to actually end himself there on that bridge, so he wouldn't have to make that choice of killing his father (and possibly other reasons)? He activated the saber, (maybe intending to pierce his own chest with one of the crosshilts), but because Han had his own hand on the hilt and he saw at the very last second what Ben intended to do, in a moment of pure instinct (because that's Han), he pulled the saber towards himself. Thus Ben's surprise, his "thank you," and Han's touching of Ben's face.

And look, I know a lot of material contradicts this (like the novelization, and director interviews about that scene, etc.) but if it's like THE twist of the series (and it's really a very simple one) then they're obviously going to protect it.

I'm not trying to excuse Ben at all costs or anything, because they can redeem him and have him with Rey even if it turns out he DID kill Han (which is what we all assume anyway), but I guess from the perspective of someone who analyzes literature for a living, the blocking of that scene, the dialogue, the deliberate placement of Han's hand, and some possible trickiness in how they wrote TLJ, I'm interested in this other possibility.

For instance, Kylo loses it at Luke when he says: "Strike me down in anger and I'll always be with you - just like you're father." An interesting interpretation of that scene might be that Kylo is blinded by rage in that moment because he knows he didn't strike him down in anger... but he's going to become the monster everyone thinks he is. He might as well, right?

*shrug* I thought it was interesting anyway. It's Disney, right? Anything's possible if Ben Solo is really their space prince.

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Re: Anything you see anew in The Force Awakens after watching The Last Jedi?

Post by snufkin on Sat 24 Mar - 14:28

My most shallow interpretation of Han's murder and the aftermath is that Kasdan wanted to have it demonstrate his entire arc through the franchise from somebody who wrestled between his two sides, the selfish scoundrel versus the selfless person who would do anything to help/protect the people he loved. Hence his death literally being piercing his heart and Snoke sneering at Ben (with extra snideness calling him "young Solo") that he had too much of Han's heart in him. So his death is Han finally committing himself to a side and being willing to sacrifice himself for both his wife and his child, to carry out Leia's belief that they can save their child. The aftermath is that even though Ben asserts that he didn't hesistate and Snoke calls him out on his bullshit, when the actual moment of truth comes, when Snoke wants him to execute Rey. He doesn't hesistate to take out Snoke to protect her because he's already "given everything to the Darkside" and knows via Han's death what the price is for sacrificing somebody you love to your own ambitions. The lesson isn't complete yet, though - having too much of his father in him, he's still grappling with his conflicting impulses. So killing Snoke is because his loyalties and emotions are firmly on Rey's side, but it's also revenge for his treatment, Han's death (and final warning), and his own ambitions.
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