Anything you see anew in The Force Awakens after watching The Last Jedi?

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Re: Anything you see anew in The Force Awakens after watching The Last Jedi?

Post by DeeBee on Sat 24 Mar 2018, 11:36 pm

@nickandnora - it's always great to explore different points of view. When we do- sometimes we change our views.. or sometimes we just come to understand how we experience the story at a deeper level - because we actually have to stop and ask ourselves - why did I see it like this and not like that? I guess it's a form of socratic questioning!

I agree with how @snufkin is seeing things - I never thought Han activated Kylo/Ben's saber (I know people played with this idea though)
- but after TLJ I'm even more convinced he did not, and that the story is telling us Kylo/Ben made a choice. An awful, heart breaking, wrong choice..
I love the Kylo/Ben character, so I can be tempted at times to minimise his crimes, his evil actions.. [not saying anyone is doing that, only that I identify a desire to do this in myself]

For me - for it to not be murder would take away one of my favourite aspects of the way the scene plays out - Han's reaction of tenderly touching Kylo/Ben's cheek like that after he stabbed him, and the expression that went along with it - I saw it as a non verbal offering of unconditional love - and forgiveness. This truly is the greatest gift Han could have given to Kylo/Ben - it seems this is what Kylo/Ben needs the most - and I suspect Han didn't really expression this to Kylo/Ben as he was growing up.. Very understandable given how Han's character is... and I'm glad he was able to do that for his son in his final moments.
Love and forgiveness from Han is IMHO going to be central to Kylo's being redeemed and finding a way to move beyond his past crimes and build a future for himself - honouring his dad's sacrifice... I think I'll go have a cry now! lol..
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Re: Anything you see anew in The Force Awakens after watching The Last Jedi?

Post by Dar-ren19 on Sun 25 Mar 2018, 12:51 am

@DeeBee wrote:@nickandnora - it's always great to explore different points of view. When we do- sometimes we change our views.. or sometimes we just come to understand how we experience the story at a deeper level - because we actually have to stop and ask ourselves - why did I see it like this and not like that? I guess it's a form of socratic questioning!

I agree with how @snufkin is seeing things - I never thought Han activated Kylo/Ben's saber (I know people played with this idea though)
- but after TLJ I'm even more convinced he did not, and that the story is telling us Kylo/Ben made a choice. An awful, heart breaking, wrong choice..
I love the Kylo/Ben character, so I can be tempted at times to minimise his crimes, his evil actions.. [not saying anyone is doing that, only that I identify a desire to do this in myself]

For me - for it to not be murder would take away one of my favourite aspects of the way the scene plays out - Han's reaction of tenderly touching Kylo/Ben's cheek like that after he stabbed him, and the expression that went along with it - I saw it as a non verbal offering of unconditional love - and forgiveness. This truly is the greatest gift Han could have given to Kylo/Ben - it seems this is what Kylo/Ben needs the most - and I suspect Han didn't really expression this to Kylo/Ben as he was growing up.. Very understandable given how Han's character is... and I'm glad he was able to do that for his son in his final moments.
Love and forgiveness from Han is IMHO going to be central to Kylo's being redeemed and finding a way to move beyond his past crimes and build a future for himself - honouring his dad's sacrifice... I think I'll go have a cry now! lol..

@DeeBee
I'm going to take some time to read your other post in the Kylo/Ben thread, but just wanted to respond to what you wrote above. I'm totally with you (and @snufkin) re Han's death and the fallout from it for Ben. Paired with Ben's own reaction just moments after Han falls off the bridge, is the idea I've wondered about for a while... as a sort of touch empath, exactly what did Kylo/Ben read in his father's mind in his last moments? Something that not only made him gasp in agony, but also affected him to the extent of tears in front of Snoke. This wasn't just the fact of killing his father, it was an act of pushing himself to lose the last vestiges of his soul...

If JJ does bring Han back in some way -- whether in a dream sequence or something else -- it would have to be written as something that's taken a piece out of Kylo and wrung it out to dry.
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Re: Anything you see anew in The Force Awakens after watching The Last Jedi?

Post by californiagirl on Sun 25 Mar 2018, 4:22 am

Perhaps this has been discussed here before, but given how controversial some of the creative choices in TLJ were, it might be worth bringing up the supposed "mystery boxes" JJ is so notorious for in TFA.

Were there actually boxes? Unanswered questions, sure. But it's like fans want to imagine there are more problems than there are, so they have something to figure out so they can look clever while doing it. If we don't have a certain piece of information, it must be a huge secret of the utmost importance to have a dramatic reveal and major place in the story at a later point!

It's funny that we are actually told more about Luke's parents in ANH, that his father was a Jedi, than we do about Rey's, and it's only because GL hadn't decided on the Vader revel until ESB. With the prequels, we are told everything we need to know about Anakin's heritage in the first movie because Shmi is right there, and we are told she had the Force-conceived pregnancy. Yet there is this unbreakable belief that there must be a big reveal in TLJ or Ep. IX, despite all evidence to the contrary.

But Rey's parentage in particular has little bearing on the plot of TFA, its main appearance being in that Rey was waiting for her family on Jakku. She gets taken away from that very early on because she needs to, you know, move past that and get on with her life, as Maz so bluntly tells her. That character development continues into TLJ, especially the mirror cave scene.

I think TFA pushed a few too many nostalgia buttons a little too long and hard, so fan expectation became that both the movie and what would happen going forward from there would be just like the OT before it. It still seems like an extreme leap from what the film actually conveys, though. TFA was not 100% rehash, and it wasn't claiming to be setting up the exact the same things as other SW movies. It's not even just the OT/EU fanboys or Luke stans that were convinced of this. What was there that still convinces so many people that TFA set up some grand lineage for Rey?

Oh, and Snoke barely had any screen time and no one was hinting at or questioning his origins. It's fine to be curious about something, but audiences made it so central to the film when it wasn't. Why is it that people almost try tricking themselves, then go into outrage and blame someone else for it?

I for one find the hand touching/vision scene from TLJ to be much more of a mystery box. The results of this encounter has a profound impact on the plot, with Rey abandoning her quest to retrieve Luke and instead go to help turn Kylo. Snoke dies, there is the Reylo fighting teamup against the Praetorian guards, Kylo proposes galactic rule with Rey, they make Anakin's lightsaber break in half, Kylo is Supreme Leader now, Rey is a Resistance hero. The effects of that hand-touching scene have a massive impact on the remainder of the movie and potentially the next one, yet no one talks about this, including what the two characters might have seen to convince them that certain actions would yield the other coming to their side.

But no, let's all sit around and argue about how Rian destroyed the Rey's parents "mystery box" that had basically no effect on anything in the story up until that point.
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Re: Anything you see anew in The Force Awakens after watching The Last Jedi?

Post by special_cases on Sun 25 Mar 2018, 3:00 pm

@californiagirl I agree with you.

I personally didn't see any mystery box about Rey parents in the cinema, when I watched TFA for the first time. And I heard that she is Solo before!

I was shocked about all theories. I kind of always wanted some hint on her being Kenobi but I was sure it won't happen.

Now I can imagine only that there can be some dramatic element connected to her uncaring parents. For example, she killed them with the Force and this is what Kylo actually saw in the vision and that's why he was so sure that she will turn (mirroring his patricide). And Kylo decided not to tell her in the end when he understood that she didn't remember it. You know, something like this.

(It's unlikely, I'm just saying that this is max we can get about her parents)

And I see hand scene more like mystery, like you said.
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Re: Anything you see anew in The Force Awakens after watching The Last Jedi?

Post by Birdwoman on Mon 26 Mar 2018, 9:37 pm

I am watching TFA now. Maz is pretty clear...the belonging you seek is ahead....
After watching TLJ, her belonging was not Luke but Kylo. It is so fascinating that so many fans, have missed that nugget. It isn't that big of a mystery now that we have two movies out in the ST.

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Re: Anything you see anew in The Force Awakens after watching The Last Jedi?

Post by snufkin on Tue 03 Apr 2018, 1:09 am

I finally caught TFA on basic cable here in the States and it hit me, the moment when Han tells Rey and Finn about whatever went wrong at Uncle Luke's Bible Camp (sorry Han, turns out your brother in law thought about murdering your son, that's what happened), the Force theme plays behind his speech. Same music which plays when Rey catches the sword and during the "closest thing we'll have to a sex scene" smut hut moment when they clasp hands. Like that's *not* a coincidence that the same piece of music plays at all 3 moments.
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Re: Anything you see anew in The Force Awakens after watching The Last Jedi?

Post by Lily Snape on Thu 05 Apr 2018, 1:29 am

I’m not sure why I didn’t notice this before, but in addition to fulfilling his promise to Leia, Han had another reason to call out to his son on SKB when he could have just done his job and left: he and Chewie had just put bombs all over the place and were about to detonate them, and then Han saw his own child in the very place he was about to blow to smithereens.

@PalmettoBlue — love your podcast, but I have to disagree with Frankie about Han’s death and its meaning. I’m with you. Smile Frankie said that even in the unlikely event that Kylo isn’t redeeemed, Han's death would still have meaning because he had fulfilled his mission for the Resistance. Yes and no, in my opinion. I think he would have died a hero, sure, if something had happened to him on SKB, but in the context of the actual events of the film, Han was about to get out of there until he called out to Ben. He was as safe as Rey, Finn and Chewbacca, all of whom escaped SKB with their lives—but he chose to give up a safe exit for a cause that meant more to him, his own son. Han died because he tried to help his son, not because he tried to help the Resistance. The purpose of his final act wasn’t to blow up Starkiller Base— they had already set that up and just needed to press a button. Actually, he basically put his companions’ escape plans in danger in order to try to save his son. It’s not like he was distracting Kylo so they could get away (I think Kylo was trying to ignore him and avoid the inevitable, but either way, he was walking away from our little crew. They didn’t need a distraction to escape like the one Luke provided in TLJ).

I’m too much of an English major not to love the fact that the character who starts out as cynical and selfish gives his life in a final act of love and faith. Touching Ben’s face makes abundantly clear where he stands. As an end to the four-film (so far) arc of Han Solo’s life, it’s beautifully done.
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Re: Anything you see anew in The Force Awakens after watching The Last Jedi?

Post by snufkin on Fri 06 Apr 2018, 8:51 pm

Small detail I noticed watching TFA in HD from TNT's recent broadcast of it, the moment when Han and Leia are reunited and Threepio c**k blocks them yet again - Leia does this small eye roll that's straight out of her expressions from ESB.
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Re: Anything you see anew in The Force Awakens after watching The Last Jedi?

Post by Dar-ren19 on Fri 06 Apr 2018, 11:11 pm

@Birdwoman wrote:I am watching TFA now. Maz is pretty clear...the belonging you seek is ahead....
After watching TLJ, her belonging was not Luke but Kylo. It is so fascinating that so many fans, have missed that nugget. It isn't that big of a mystery now that we have two movies out in the ST.
@Birdwoman

That "Luke" from Rey was a pretty deliberate misdirection, though. I'm kinda tired of JJ's misdirections... makes me wary of IX.
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Re: Anything you see anew in The Force Awakens after watching The Last Jedi?

Post by rey09 on Sat 07 Apr 2018, 8:50 am

@Dar-ren19 wrote:
@Birdwoman wrote:I am watching TFA now. Maz is pretty clear...the belonging you seek is ahead....
After watching TLJ, her belonging was not Luke but Kylo. It is so fascinating that so many fans, have missed that nugget. It isn't that big of a mystery now that we have two movies out in the ST.
@Birdwoman

That "Luke" from Rey was a pretty deliberate misdirection, though. I'm kinda tired of JJ's misdirections... makes me wary of IX.
@Dar-ren19

Yeah..that whole lightsaber moment was the main Rey Skywalker proof. Even coming out of the theater as a reylo, I thought based on the "Luke" he would become a father figure to her. What's so hilarious now in retrospect is that Luke did literally nothing for her. It is clear as day now where her belonging lies.
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Re: Anything you see anew in The Force Awakens after watching The Last Jedi?

Post by Dar-ren19 on Sat 07 Apr 2018, 8:58 am

@rey09 wrote:
@Dar-ren19 wrote:
@Birdwoman wrote:I am watching TFA now. Maz is pretty clear...the belonging you seek is ahead....
After watching TLJ, her belonging was not Luke but Kylo. It is so fascinating that so many fans, have missed that nugget. It isn't that big of a mystery now that we have two movies out in the ST.
@Birdwoman

That "Luke" from Rey was a pretty deliberate misdirection, though. I'm kinda tired of JJ's misdirections... makes me wary of IX.
@Dar-ren19

Yeah..that whole lightsaber moment was the main Rey Skywalker proof. Even coming out of the theater as a reylo, I thought based on the "Luke" he would become a father figure to her. What's so hilarious now in retrospect is that Luke did literally nothing for her. It is clear as day now where her belonging lies.
@rey09

That's the main reason I thought they were cousins! And stupid me decided to ignore ALL of the OTHER pointers in the opposite direction simply because of that "Luke". It actually kinda makes me angry. Because if I'd not paid heed to that, I'd have been on this board much earlier with all of you and not waited until I saw TLJ... it was AFTER I saw TLJ that I came out of the theater with my head all dizzy and then I ran home to rewatch TFA... and BOOM!

JJ and his fckign misdirections! Evil or Very Mad
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Re: Anything you see anew in The Force Awakens after watching The Last Jedi?

Post by Night Huntress on Sat 07 Apr 2018, 10:24 am

@Dar-ren19

since IX will be the last Episode I hope we won't get new mystery boxes or misdirections anymore in the movie (the marketing will be something different- but that's expected).

I don't remember where I heard the joke about JJ creating all this mystery boxes in TFA and then RJ looked into those boxes and they were all empty so he thought wtf???  scratch   and threw them over his shoulder just like Luke with his lightsaber in TLJ... Laughing
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Re: Anything you see anew in The Force Awakens after watching The Last Jedi?

Post by Dar-ren19 on Sat 07 Apr 2018, 12:06 pm

@Night Huntress wrote:@Dar-ren19

since IX will be the last Episode I hope we won't get new mystery boxes or misdirections anymore in the movie (the marketing will be something different- but that's expected).

I don't remember where I heard the joke about JJ creating all this mystery boxes in TFA and then RJ looked into those boxes and they were all empty so he thought wtf???  scratch   and threw them over his shoulder just like Luke with his lightsaber in TLJ... Laughing
@Night Huntress

lmao! LOve it! Very Happy
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