Light, Darkness, and Balance. But how?

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Re: Light, Darkness, and Balance. But how?

Post by BB-Rey on Tue 27 Feb 2018, 10:42 am

@Teo oswald

Exactly! Smile

It could also work with the unity of the First Order and Resistance. Instead of  having the risk of them return yet again, the sides will have to learn to coexist as one of the same.
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Re: Light, Darkness, and Balance. But how?

Post by DeeBee on Sun 04 Mar 2018, 12:13 am

I found the other day that there was a thread a while back - where someone else (Back in april 2016 - now labelled 'guest' ) wrote about the Jeidaii also..
http://reylo.skyforum.net/t139p25-return-of-the-je-daii?highlight=Je+daii

Heading into IX, I've been pondering what the force plot could be - yeah related to the balance.. but I've also been wondering about the sources of knowledge that Rey and/or Kylo could draw on in IX. anyone else curious about this?

-Snoke-
I guess Snoke would have been a potential (though dangerous lol) source of force knowledge too.. though lol not a shame he was killed in TLJ Wink  
Here is info about this on the SW databank:

-'seeker of arcane lore' sounds pretty active..
I'm wondering what resources/archives/artifacts etc. Snoke could have compiled over his long life...  do we have any information about this at this stage?
Kylo said something about having access to the Imperial archives during the interrogation with Rey..
anything else?

-LST-
I also wonder what led LST to the Kazerath device... if it plays a role in IX, someone else will maybe follow the same trail....

There is also this entry in the TFA visual dictionary that tells us more about LST and what he got up to..

I keep thinking it's such a shame LST was killed in TFA (Kylo- did you have to?!) - he would have been a great source of information!

-Jedi Texts-
Here's what I've found about the Jedi texts so far... if anyone has more or new info please share! At this stage, we don't know much...
We have this dialogue describing them in TLJ: Luke describes them to Rey: “(the tree library was…) Built a thousand generations ago. To keep these. The original jedi texts. Just like me they’re the last of the jedi religion.”
And this conversation with Yoda:
Y: time it is….for you to look past a pile of old books.
L: the sacred Jedi texts!!!!
Y: Huuhhhh read them have you?
L: well I….
Y: page turners they were not. Yes yes yes. Wisdom they held. But that library contained nothing that the girl Rey does not already possess.
-interesting Luke describes them as ‘original’ Jedi texts.. but what does that mean.. they are not copies? or texts of the original Jedi?!

The SW databank describes them more clearly I think in the 'Ach-to Library' entry:

-here we learn they are ‘founding’ texts of the Jedi order. That for me means they were around when the Jedi order started.. and maybe that is what ‘original’ meant.

The SW databank says this in Rey's bio:


TLJ visual dictionary says about the texts: [pg 47]
“Luke’s travels have allowed him to collect and assemble ancient scriptures containing lost Jedi wisdom and abilities.
Actual books such as these are a true primitive rarity.”
-so the books contain lost Jedi wisdom and abilities – Whoa! what lost abilities??!!!! I want to know!!!!
This is the only place where I've found any specific description of their contents.. anyone else found anything?
Do we know what language they are in? is it Aurbesh? Anyone know?


Last edited by DeeBee on Sat 24 Mar 2018, 11:54 pm; edited 3 times in total (Reason for editing : edited to account for the post having been moved to a new thread.)
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Re: Light, Darkness, and Balance. But how?

Post by SoloSideCousin on Sun 04 Mar 2018, 12:19 am

@DeeBee wrote:hiya! Ah I rarely come into this section of the forum I forget it's here! So I'll give this thread a little love...
I found the other day that there was a thread a while back - where someone else (Back in april 2016 - now labelled 'guest' ) wrote about the Jeidaii also..
http://reylo.skyforum.net/t139p25-return-of-the-je-daii?highlight=Je+daii
A really great thread - Mods -can we incorporate that thread into this one?

I guess this thread is a good place to collect thoughts on force lore - sources of knowledge, info on artifacts etc. There's a thread on the balance in the IX section, but it is specifically about balance in the force only.
There have been great conversations about Snoke, Luke's quest etc. but the threads get archived, can't be quoted and can be hard to find in future...
So if anyone finds anything about this topic - please share here?

Heading into IX, I've been pondering what the force plot could be - yeah related to the balance.. but I've also been wondering about the sources of knowledge that Rey and/or Kylo could draw on in IX. anyone else curious about this?

-Snoke-
I guess Snoke would have been a potential (though dangerous lol) source of force knowledge too.. though lol not a shame he was killed in TLJ Wink  
Here is info about this on the SW databank:

-'seeker of arcane lore' sounds pretty active..
I'm wondering what resources/archives/artifacts etc. Snoke could have compiled over his long life...  do we have any information about this at this stage?
Kylo said something about having access to the Imperial archives during the interrogation with Rey..
anything else?

-LST-
I also wonder what led LST to the Kazerath device... if it plays a role in IX, someone else will maybe follow the same trail....

There is also this entry in the TFA visual dictionary that tells us more about LST and what he got up to..

I keep thinking it's such a shame LST was killed in TFA (Kylo- did you have to?!) - he would have been a great source of information!

-Jedi Texts-
Here's what I've found about the Jedi texts so far... if anyone has more or new info please share! At this stage, we don't know much...
We have this dialogue describing them in TLJ: Luke describes them to Rey: “(the tree library was…) Built a thousand generations ago. To keep these. The original jedi texts. Just like me they’re the last of the jedi religion.”
And this conversation with Yoda:
Y: time it is….for you to look past a pile of old books.
L: the sacred Jedi texts!!!!
Y: Huuhhhh read them have you?
L: well I….
Y: page turners they were not. Yes yes yes. Wisdom they held. But that library contained nothing that the girl Rey does not already possess.
-interesting Luke describes them as ‘original’ Jedi texts.. but what does that mean.. they are not copies? or texts of the original Jedi?!

The SW databank describes them more clearly I think in the 'Ach-to Library' entry:

-here we learn they are ‘founding’ texts of the Jedi order. That for me means they were around when the Jedi order started.. and maybe that is what ‘original’ meant.

The SW databank says this in Rey's bio:


TLJ visual dictionary says about the texts: [pg 47]
“Luke’s travels have allowed him to collect and assemble ancient scriptures containing lost Jedi wisdom and abilities.
Actual books such as these are a true primitive rarity.”
-so the books contain lost Jedi wisdom and abilities – Whoa! what lost abilities??!!!! I want to know!!!!
This is the only place where I've found any specific description of their contents.. anyone else found anything?
Do we know what language they are in? is it Aurbesh? Anyone know?

If I'm in the mood, I'll compile what we know of Luke's quest eventually.. but... If someone else wants to do this go for it lol.
@DeeBee

The "lost abilities" part is going to serve as canon for the "new to the audience" abilities people like Luke and Kylo/Ben and Rey display in the ST. The abilities were always out there, but the deteriorating Jedi just "forgot" them.
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Re: Light, Darkness, and Balance. But how?

Post by DeeBee on Sun 04 Mar 2018, 12:22 am

@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@DeeBee

The "lost abilities" part is going to serve as canon for the "new to the audience" abilities people like Luke and Kylo/Ben and Rey display in the ST. The abilities were always out there, but the deteriorating Jedi just "forgot" them.
@SoloSideCousin

Indeed! what is old is new again!
[from a certain point of view haaaa]
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Re: Light, Darkness, and Balance. But how?

Post by DeeBee on Sun 25 Mar 2018, 12:57 am

Hi All, Poe Dameron Comic #25, Legend Found was recently published (21 March 2018) and yet again - it is the gift that keeps on giving!!! I'm super excited by this latest edition - especially considering what the comic series has told us so far about Lor San Tekka. There is no specific mention of Balance but I think it's relevant as it's talking about how the force works, and about LST's unique insights into understanding it...
If you'd like to read it on you tube here it is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9Tj0Ix3XCw

Don't read on if you don't want to be spoiled!

Basically, the comic starts with LST floating in space - a bad guy set him free with a space suit - then told the FO and the resistance where LST was and it's a race to see who gets to him first.

The exciting part about the force is what LST does while he is floating in space, thinking he is about to die. He sets about recording onto a voice recorder in the suit, who he is and what he has learned about the force over the years.. To me this stuff is gold!

We see him record this dialogue (i'll transcribe it):
"Suit recorder activated. My name…

…. Is Lor San Tekka. I am an explorer. A searcher, an archaeologist of the greatest mystery of the universe – the force that binds us all. I have lived a long time, and I have learned much. I always thought I would have an opportunity to set my conclusions down somewhere. A lifetime of study distilled. Others could learn from such a work… Perhaps use it to solve their own mysteries. There are always more mysteries.

But unless I am mistaken, there will be no great scholarly record from me. Just this meagre testament, spoken into a spacesuit data recorder as I drift, alone in the immensity of the cosmos. Against it, I am as nothing. But yet… Here I am, Still I am Lor San Tekka.

These are my last words…

[For a close up of this section check out the youtube clip.. too many images for me to include here sorry - but I'll continue to transcribe it here]
I must begin by admitting that I cannot touch the force. I can only study it. And so, all of my conclusions might be wrong. But I think, in some ways that distance has helped me move toward understanding. I see the force differently than a jedi might.

Even if I cannot touch it, I can certainly say that the force touches me… as it does all beings. It moves like a sea. It has tides, sometimes it recedes from the galaxy, and its influence can barely be felt. And then it rushes back, and the great certainties become uncertain, and all is change.

It is as if when the force is prominent, those who seize it can reshape the galaxy as they choose. I believe we are about to re-enter such a period now force-related sites across the galaxy have become active…expectant. Something is coming.

Light and Dark will battle yet again.



And I have lived long enough to know this…

Either side can win."


At this point the story cuts back to the resistance and we don't hear if LST records anymore..

So exciting to see LST sharing further insights with us through the comics - and to hear that he had intended to record his learnings!
This makes me wonder if in IX we will find that he has indeed between this comic and TFA recorded his force insights - or if maybe he recorded a lot more on this suit than we see.
"Others could learn from such a work… Perhaps use it to solve their own mysteries." - Seems like foreshadowing to me!!
Either way, I'm hopeful that as a source of information LST can contribute to IX posthumously.

Also, the timing of this being right before The force awakens it's super interesting to hear him talk about how the force seems to be coming out of it's slumber and he can see the signs...
I love how he can see he has a bigger picture view that the Jedi can't see because they are too close to it I think.. this fits right in with the events of TLJ and hints of what is ahead for Rey and Kylo.

"And then it rushes back, and the great certainties become uncertain, and all is change." - this lines up well with TLJ's events and where knowledge of the force/ the jedi is left...

"It is as if when the force is prominent, those who seize it can reshape the galaxy as they choose. I believe we are about to re-enter such a period now force-related sites across the galaxy have become active…expectant. Something is coming."
-wow!!! reshaping the galaxy - sound familiar???!! hmm sounds like what Kylo/Ben was hoping to achieve. Maybe the force is on board with that, and is fostering this desire within Kylo/Ben - he just hasn't yet worked out how this is all going to happen yet...


The comic finishes with LST talking to Leia and then Poe before he leaves the resistance - yes they end up rescuing him Smile

Along with the mention above that: "Even if I cannot touch it, I can certainly say that the force touches me… as it does all beings." - There is a really interesting conversation between Poe and LST, about Luke, and the force throughout the galaxy...
I think the old 'future of force users' thread is now a part of this thread, so this would be the place for me to share it. But this comment is massive already.. soooo I might aim to get back here and share it another day. Bye!
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Re: Light, Darkness, and Balance. But how?

Post by DeeBee on Sun 01 Apr 2018, 9:58 pm

Hi Everyone. Finally, I'll share the Poe/LST/ the force content that was published about a week ago in the new Poe Dameron comic series 'Legend Found, Part V' - comic 25.
I'll jump straight into it.. LST is rescued by the resistance and brought to Leia, who asks him to help her find Luke.. LST doesn't know for sure where he is but he says he will research to try and find out -
(explains for me how LST had the info at the start of TFA to give to Poe).
The comic frame about searching for Luke:
This conversation is straight after LST's recording his last words about how  "Even if I cannot touch it, I can certainly say that the force touches me… as it does all beings."
LST goes to make his departure, but on his way he finds Poe (watching his friend's wedding party from a distance, looking all alone and wistful with trusty BB-8 by his side lol. there is a story in that. Yes there is a SW wedding - presided over by Leia no less!... but I digress! ).

Here is the conversation between Poe and LST:
New LST content about the force:

"LST: I'm sorry to take you away from the party, but I have to leave soon. General Organa has given me an important task and I do not wish to delay.
PD: Luke.
LST: Just so. but everything does not hinge on Luke Skywalker, despite his sister's beliefs...


...Oh, The Jedi is certainly important, certainly, but he is not everything. Fate does not revolve entirely around lightsabers and those who wield them.
PD: Was there anything in particular or...
LST: Oh, no. Not really. But you've saved my life a number of times, and it seemed strange to just leave without taking the time to chat...
...It all seems so enormous, no? Immense, unending. But it's not. The trick is not to think about the void...


...think about the lights...

...do you know what binds all those lights together?

PD: Don't have to be a Jedi to know the answer to that. The force.
LST: In a way. But I've come to see it differently, over time. Look again
[Poe looks again.]
PD: Us. The force is all of us.


LST: Very good, Mr Dameron. Until we meet again, My friend.
..may the force be with you.

[Bolded words are bolded in the comic]

Is it just me or is this fabulous? It seems to me LST sought out Poe because he knows the force is awakening and Poe has a role to play in the battle between light and dark.
That 'the force is all of us' - not just 'binding all of us' is a slightly different take on it - and gives new deeper meaning to 'may the force be with you'.
The force in a sense is a part of you, not just around you. It is all of 'us' in the SW universe.

Where there is life, there is the force.

I see this new content as another hint that the understanding of the force in the galaxy is changing and this new understanding is being revealed across the ST. [it's not a retcon of the PT and OT]
This is what LST was referring to when he said the force is tidal- retreating and then.. 'it rushes back, and the great certainties become uncertain, and all is change.' - I think this is a description of what is known about the force after ROTJ and into the ST. And LST also sees he understands the force differently to how the Jedi might - because he can step back from it in a way a Jedi cannot, he can see a bigger picture.  
Luke's own journey seems to illustrate all this... What was 'known' in the PT and the OT becoming uncertain..

I think the Jedi view that force users deal with the force stuff and non force users deal with the battle/military/political stuff may be about to change. I think force users have a unique contribution to make, but they are maybe not going to be the sole instruments of the force - or as LST says they are not everything, and fate does not revolve entirely around lightsaber wielders. Does that make sense?
This could relate to the idea that maybe Finn broke from his conditioning because the force had awakened and had plans for him.. super interesting to play around with.. but at this point it's not clear.

I also think it's super interesting that a sage about the force leading into the ST and with media like this is not a force user. I think this is part of the story - the Jedi don't hold all the knowledge about the force! [though admittedly Snoke was no jedi and he knew plenty too]

What does all this mean for the future of the Jedi? I guess they have a unique role to play but exactly what will that role be? What do you all think?
I think Rey and Kylo/Ben being instrumental in bringing balance to the force seems to be where these two force users are headed by the end of IX.
But beyond that - the future role of Jedi, who are balanced in the force, is unclear... other than maybe being maintainers of the balance maybe?

The finale of A New Hope saw the story of the force/the resistance/luke/defeating the empire/vader - all tied up together and that is why it worked oh sooo well. Luke utilised the force and trusted it to help him evade Vader's attack (the force is strong with this one!), fire that shot and destroy the death star. And we had non force user Han Solo (with his 'simple tricks and nonsense' - not to mention his courage and big heart) contribute by surprise blasting Vader and his wingmen out of the way to give Luke the clear shot. The force users can't do it alone. Come on Galaxy! Razz Force users and non force users worked together to defeat the empire. It all seemed so simple.. but really I think it was just plain genius! There is genius in simplicity.
I originally thought the force users would have a side task in IX that's force related.. that Rey would have a force plot separate to the resistance - but now I'm not so sure.. I think it may be more interwoven that I first thought.
Because of this - I hope for a scenario where Hux turns imbalance of the force into some kind of weapon - like a planet becoming unbalanced so much it because a weapon or threatens surrounding planets - because this ties the FO, the force, the resistance/ force users (Rey and Kylo/Ben) all together into one final battle that would bring the story of the force finding balance/ the galaxy finding peace... Maybe this is too out there for the GA. Don't be afraid. I feel it too! Smile  but lol.... I think it's not as out there as Mortis! lol.  
Ahhh that's all my SW time for today! ha. bye all!
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Re: Light, Darkness, and Balance. But how?

Post by Let The Past Die on Mon 02 Apr 2018, 7:32 am

Fabulous post @DeeBee

"The force is all of us. "

I've enjoyed reading the snippets of the Poe Dameron comic and LST's part in it. There have been some subtle and not so subtle hints in them about the force.
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Re: Light, Darkness, and Balance. But how?

Post by SkyStar on Mon 02 Apr 2018, 7:56 am

Thank you for putting it together @DeeBee ! Smile
They really do seem to move on from the force being something an elite circle of people can possess. I know history has these circle kind of movements where there is elite after that comes some kind of democratization of the privilege, but then it comes to a different kind of elite forming.
I like this new concept of force and that it's something everyone feels, but it may not be everyone's cup of tea. I don't really like the idea of a new Jedi order (or closed orders with only special people chosen to be in), but they made it clear that Jedi are not really going away by what Luke said, so I guess it should mean something in the future as well. Probably the form will change though.
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Re: Light, Darkness, and Balance. But how?

Post by DeeBee on Sat 14 Apr 2018, 7:57 pm

@Let The Past Die - thanks!

@SkyStar - You are very welcome - I too love this idea of stopping the 'force elite'. Great way to describe it!
I see the Skywalkers as a cautionary tale - how dangerous it is to put such power into one lineage..  It's just too dangerous and leads to them being targets -  'tools' potentially able to be 'ensnared' and manipulated toward evil ends. It made Anakin the target of Palpatine, and Ben the target of Snoke. This state of affairs needs to end!
Though how I'm not sure, but with the continuation of the skywalker lineage I hope the strong force connection will be reduce or eliminated - returning to randomness! thoughts anyone? I kind of hope once Rey and Ben work together to bring balance (however that happens lol) their future offspring will no longer inherit the crazy raw powah!

Yeah I don't like the idea of a new Jedi order either. I don't think we'll get it, but we will still have 'Jedi'. Sounds like a contradiction but I keep going back to the original Je'daii in legends (aka potential future canon!). There were 'Je'daii' before there was any Jedi order.
Snoke's musings in the expanded novelisation caught my eye: (pages 217-218)



Luke seeking to understand the origins of the faith, and the larger truths behind it? Whoa..
Seems he didn't quite get there in gaining that understanding, because Snoke somehow manipulated him into moving his focus back to the rebuilding of the jedi order. gah!
Is it just me, or does this sound like Luke (possibly with Ben along for the ride- thus why Ben had the compass on his bedside table) was getting close to uncovering the origins of the Jedi faith - and the Je'daii? The original balanced Jedi. Luke got close, but wasn't quite able to put the pieces together...  Maybe Ben and Rey can finish what he started! Very Happy

Anyone watched the dvd special feature documentary 'balance of the force'? I watched it yesterday and I was a tad underwhelmed. It really didn't tell me anything new. I should not have gotten my hopes up! However seeing RJ describe the Jedi order needing to end or the whole Jedi/Sith conflict will just start up again was cool as it's not explicitly stated like that in the movie. But.. then again this isn't new information. Mrs Windu shared these RJ quotes from the art of TLJ book (which I guess much of the GA wouldn't read), back in December 2017.
@MrsWindu wrote:This was part of a whole of a page from The Art of but here’s a close up of what Rian had to say about the Jedi in the past. Note Rian uses the same line as Yoda to Luke - missing the thing that’s right in front of your nose (as the Force tree burns)

@MrsWindu - thanks again for sharing this! I wonder if this book's quote was taken from that documentary!
Curiously noooo real mention of Rey or Kylo/Ben and balance. A glaring omission me thinks - which speaks volumes!! It's coming up in IX!!! cheers
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Re: Light, Darkness, and Balance. But how?

Post by MeadowofAshes on Sat 21 Apr 2018, 10:18 am

Hello there. Why have I not made it to this thread before? I know we talked balance and what the New Jedi will look like before TLJ came out. So I'm going to reiterate here if you have not seen The Dark Crystal, I would highly recommend a watch. Not only is it a delightful children's fantasy, it's a perfect representation of the Jedi and Sith in the Mystics and Skeksis, who literally split a crystal to split their light and dark selves into two factions. That's when the crystal becomes dark and only when it is put back together and accepted as a whole is it healed and turned white again, and the Ur'Skeks joined together once again. Bonus: It also has an Adam and Eve allusion with Jen and Kira being the last and first of their kind , and the two of them touching hands to share visions.

Anyway, Rey and Ben got a taste of balance on the island when they were in the moment, reaching out with their feelings to each other in compassion and presence. The dark and light that Luke instructs Rey to feel are always going to exist in the external world. Death, life, peace, violence, cold, warmth, etc. The balance is, in my opinion, going to be a largely internal endeavor for the New Jedi. Balance is being able to reach through all that and maintain equanimity, connection, and compassion.

Kylo's saber is corrupted and the legacy saber is split. Their crystals need healing, and just like in The Dark Crystal we can extend this metaphor to Rey and Ben. Accepting both light and dark as the inherent Dual Nature of Man and learning to remain connected and compassionate is what will heal our dual protagonists and the New Jedi.
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Re: Light, Darkness, and Balance. But how?

Post by DeeBee on Sun 22 Apr 2018, 1:36 am

@MeadowofAshes - hiya! Glad you found your way here!
Yeah the dark crystal may be a big clue for where all this is headed. Thanks for this reminder!
I also am on board with your thoughts on healing both Rey and Kylo's kyber crystals in IX. I do hope they go with that!!
@MeadowofAshes wrote: ...Anyway, Rey and Ben got a taste of balance on the island when they were in the moment, reaching out with their feelings to each other in compassion and presence. The dark and light that Luke instructs Rey to feel are always going to exist in the external world. Death, life, peace, violence, cold, warmth, etc. The balance is, in my opinion, going to be a largely internal endeavor for the New Jedi. Balance is being able to reach through all that and maintain equanimity, connection, and compassion.
I hadn't really stopped to think about how the smut hut moment is a moment of balance. that's a lovely idea. It certainly seems like a culmination of something the force had been working towards - and which would have pleased the force - if that is possible? I guess it would have been what the force willed. I can say that at least.
I agree balance is going to be an internal endeavour in the new jedi. Though I do think there is also a wider balance in the galaxy which is involved - but I can't really know for sure how all this works.. I also think there are hints that non force users also have a role to play in bringing balance to the cosmic force - and peace to the galaxy..  but we'll see!
@MeadowofAshes

There is a new article on StarWars.com by Zehr (2018), interviewing the Poe Dameron comics author Charles Soule.
See here:
https://www.starwars.com/news/charles-soule-on-the-resistances-best-pilot-and-whats-next-in-marvel-poe-dameron
A really interesting part of this interview refers to the conversation between Poe and LST I shared snippets of earlier in this thread.
Zehr (2018) wrote: StarWars.com: The “Legend Found” arc features a poignant conversation between Poe and Lor San Tekka in which they discuss the nature of the Force. It’s a great way to see the Force from the perspective of non-Jedi characters, but also teaches us a bit more about this mystical energy field. What do we learn from this conversation?

Charles Soule: The biggest thing, I think, is the way a character like Lor San Tekka who’s been studying the Force his whole life views the “hero Force-wielders.” Jedi and Sith, essentially. Lor understands why they get all the attention, as agents of the Cosmic Force, but he knows they’re just a small part of the immense whole that is the Living Force. For Lor, and for the vast majority of beings in the galaxy, it’s all about the Living Force. I hadn’t seen The Last Jedi yet when I wrote that sequence, but now that I have, I think it’s pretty fair to say that Luke Skywalker would probably agree with Lor San Tekka’s point of view, at least in part.
-very interesting!
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Re: Light, Darkness, and Balance. But how?

Post by BB-Rey on Thu 17 May 2018, 9:20 am




The Daughter and Son share a very visual parallel with Rey and Kylo. I have no doubt now that she's the Light to his Dark and he's the Dark to her Light and together they'll find Balance of the Force.
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New Poe Dameron Comic #27 content related to the force

Post by DeeBee on Sun 20 May 2018, 12:58 am

@BB-Rey -Nice one BB-Rey! yeah I was thinking the lightsaber tug of war was similar to this daughter/son battle - but the hut moment works too! Oh boy. What does it all mean? I found the official star wars galactic atlas on sale the other day - so of course I bought it. lol. I was curious to see Mortis is there on the map.. and is covered in detail. Sooooo umm this would suggest that it is real no? I am really not sure what to do with Mortis. [I'd be happy to share anything if anyone is interested]
Anakin brought about balance by the end of ROTJ - but there was no Mortis.. so I am thinking Rey and Kylo/Ben can bring balance without Mortis, but I guess we shall see!

I came to give this thread a little love - thanks to new content in the latest Poe Dameron comic (#27).
Poe recounts to Finn and Rey what he experienced when he fought above Takodana..
"That battle on Takodana was something else. It was the first time the Resistance had gone up against the first order for real. I mean...I'd shot down my share of ties before that - I have a special missions team, Black Squadron, and we'd had some tangles... But this felt different. We were out in the open where everyone could see. Everyone at Maz Kanata's castle watching the Resistance protect them from those first order goons. It gave us us all this energy, I think, yes.... Oomph. I took down nine ties in one run, Nine. and a bunch of ground targets too. It felt amazing. Like I was really tapping into something."
[note: the bold words are bolded in the comic. Leaving aside how Poe sounds a bit braggy lol. I didn't know this was the first real confrontation between the resistance and the first order.]
This next slide is the response to Poe's story:


So interesting.. Rey would know about the force Poe. Why don't you try listening! lol.
We see Poe mention growing up with the force tree- cool!! but I think Poe is resistant to listening to Rey because he hasn't noticed he has any particular connection to the force up till now.
I'm thinking this may be because the force was slumbering - but now at the start of TFA it has awoken... so now he is starting to sense this 'energy'. And lol maybe that's why you can shoot nine, it's not because you are that good Poe haaa without the force you couldn't do it maybe haaa..
Anyone across the content on force trees and would like to share? I'm new to it!

Anyway, Leia interrupts this little conversation on the MF.. and I'll share what happens next:

Listen to Leia Poe.

So here again we have reference to how everyone can have the force. As really it's not something they all 'have' it is in all living things. I'm seeing this crop up time and again now - so regularly I am getting more confident that this is not a red herring but actually relevant to IX. lol.

So interesting to see hints that maybe Poe will be able to utilise the force more in IX... and lol at Finn being so baffled by all this force stuff - just wait till he finds out what happened with Rey and Kylo/Ben haaaa.. I love Finn's line about the conflicting reports - I think this is a cool throw back to the gag with Han in TFA!
I also love how prominent the broken lightsaber and kyber crystal are through all this artwork (even if I'm not a fan of the artwork!).

I'm wondering if the big picture with the force is that there are a select few it chooses as instruments of the cosmic force - like Luke, Snoke, Kylo/Ben and Rey... and then also everyone shares a connection with the living force, to varying degrees (due to exposure to force trees, numbers of midichlori-whatsies)... and at varying amounts (due to the ebb and flow of the force in the galaxy). All people can have some role to play in the will of the force though too I think. So many references to destiny... Anway, this is my current picture I have forming... fun to play with..
I've seen a few new mentions of the cosmic force and living force lately.. Luke reconnecting to the force in the novelisation described the sensation of reconnecting with the living force, and then distinctly different- reconnecting to the cosmic force. Anyone else been noticing this?

One last comment - the recent starwars.com databank had reference to the force reconnecting Rey and Kylo/Ben at the end of TLJ with their force bond moment.. (which I guess would be the cosmic force) - so the cosmic force is still at work between these two working somehow to bring about the balance it needs... these two together are going to be it's instruments! bye!
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Re: Light, Darkness, and Balance. But how?

Post by olyer on Sun 20 May 2018, 9:12 am

I wonder if they're going to pull a Buffy in the ST. In the last episode of BTVS (sorry, spoilers, but the show has been over since 2003), Willow did a spell that activated all the potential slayers and gave them all slayer powers. The thematic turn away from the "special people" to the nobodies seems to suggest this as well. You don't need to be special to use the Force. The Force Awakening may refer to the Force awakening in everyone.

Personally, I hate the whole midichlorians thing and hope it will be debunked in EpIX.
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Re: Light, Darkness, and Balance. But how?

Post by DeeBee on Thu 24 May 2018, 2:23 am

@olyer - Hi olyer! Maybe anything is possible.. though from what we have learned so far I think that while all living beings have the force, not all can access it to the same degree - I think we will continue to see some being especially gifted and the rest...

A bit of random force stuff.. about balance - maybe or maybe not..
A conversation came up on the resistance thread about the hints in the recent Poe comic - about Poe possibly using the force, and Poe mentioning he grew up next to a tree. My interest was sparked, so I have been doing a little exploring about these trees. I don't know if they are related to balance, but 'the great tree' in the Jedi temple at Coruscant was special in some force related way.

Sidious takes the great tree from the Jedi temple.. in the shattered empire comics we learn Sidious has two seedlings of the tree growing in an imperial lab. Luke, with the help of Poe's mama (Shara Bey) steals them back.

Luke gives one to Shara Bey to plant and give it a good home.. she is about to leave the rebellion and build a home for herself with her husband and her son (Poe). The comic ends with Shara Bey being seen planting the tree next to her family's new home which is on Yavin 4. here's a taste (and Poe's childhood home!) FYI mamma and papa Dameron are mighty attractive.. and even get a bedroom scene! (there's hope for Reylo haaa):

I couldn't find what sort of tree this was.. but Luke says the force is 'with them'.

In TLj the uneti tree housed the Ahch-to library..  is this the same type of tree as the Jedi temple tree and it's seedlings? TLJ visual dictionary says the Uneti tree is force -sensitive 'in it's own way' - whatever that means.

I wasn't sure if the great tree and the uneti were the same.. Thought I'd share that I've found the answer in TLJ novelisation.. Yes they are!
It says "...Poe had grown up on Yavin 4, playing in the shade of an uneti tree his mother had been given by Skywalker himself, and which he'd told her was a seedling of one that had grown at Coruscant's Jedi Temple" (page 300  I think).

What does it mean if you grew up with one of these special uneti force trees that are force sensitive? Can it impact those around them? the Poe comic seems to be hinting maybe.. but I'm thinking at this point we don't really know. lol. Also.. do these trees contribute to or manifest balance in some way? curious about these trees..

I like to think if Poe has some kind of additional force sensitivity that is awakening (nothing like Rey mind you) he could be a more interesting character lol.
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Re: Light, Darkness, and Balance. But how?

Post by DeeBee on Sat 02 Jun 2018, 8:03 pm

Hi all, I watched A New Hope yesterday for the first time in a very long time! Obi-Wan's quote about the force caught my eye: [this is when Luke and Obi-wan are in Obi-wan's home on Tatooine]

Luke Skywalker: The Force?
Ben Kenobi: The Force is what gives a Jedi his powers. It's an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us, penetrates us, it binds the galaxy together.

-surrounds us, penetrates us and binds - this grabbed my attention. It is not until recently that it finally clicked for me that the force is within- as well as around all living beings. lol. In canon lately, we've seen more references to this - and emphasis on how the force is not for a select group (the Jedi do not own the force). and as @Olyer and I were just discussing - there seems to be hints that the force can be accessed at different levels.
I came across an RJ quote from the empire podcast that speaks directly to this. I had not seen the full significance of this at the time - it's only since the Poe comics have released more content about the force and how all people 'have' the force that this comment stuck out for me, where RJ shares something that Kathleen Kennedy had said to him about force powers:
White, 2018 wrote: The likes of Leia, Luke and Snoke all display incredible Force powers in the film. Johnson acknowledges that this was something he wanted to tackle. "It was twofold," Johnson explains. "First of all, it's tough, because at this point between The Force Awakens and even the video games, the level of Force powers has slowly come up. I feel like we still offered a modicum of restraint, because we didn't have anyone pulling Star Destroyers out of the sky. And believe me, it came up when Luke came out on to the field, I was, like, 'should he wave his hand and all the walkers blow off like dust?' The things that are in there that are Force moments largely came out of the dramatic moments. But the Leia thing is an interesting example. It's something that Kathy kept bringing up, which I thought was interesting. She said, 'I've always been intrigued by what Luke says to Leia in Jedi in that she has the power inside her also, and why haven't we seen that?' And the idea behind Leia's big moment was that it was not incredibly powerful, because she's in space and that doesn't offer much resistance, it doesn't take much to pull her back in. But also, that it's instinctual. It's like when you hear parents that have a toddler trapped under a car, and they lift the car up with Hulk strength. The idea that it's not going to end today, that she's not finished yet."
source: https://www.empireonline.com/movies/features/star-wars-last-jedi-10-revelations-director-rian-johnson/

"The level of Force powers has slowly come up" - wow this is exactly what we were just speculating about! And we are not imagining that this is slowly being revealed. RJ seems to confirm this..

This parent suddenly having incredible strength to save their child is extremely intriguing to me.. it suggests that there is hidden potential to do something extraordinary in all people in SW universe... if the situation arises.. and the force is on board with it I think.
I like this, it suggests - but is not prescriptive in any way.. we aren't going to see all people using the force all over the place - but there are many possibilities for how force will manifest in events in IX!

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Re: Light, Darkness, and Balance. But how?

Post by DeeBee on Thu 21 Jun 2018, 1:50 am

Hellooooooo! How are we all?!  
There has been new content of late related to the force! I'll share!

In TLJ comic adaptation there was this little gem:
[In issue 2 of 6]

I do love this - a little moment of Poe close to realising there may be lots about the force that he doesn't know! And.. I love how Finn is such a novice to it that he can readily accept it as the force and how the force works! lol.

The whole of the comic adaptation starts with these two images:


A reminder that the force is mysterious and tricky to understand! Which I find encouraging! lol.
This sequence goes on to cover Luke and the cosmic force - but I might come back to this another day. I've had a big SW day today on my day off..

There is some new force related content in the Poe Dameron #28 comic that I'll share here.
C3P0 reads from a Jedi text to Rey:


Hmm this is pretty vague!!! and.. really doesn't tell me much about what the books say - then again, it seems unlikely I'd learn anything more about this in great detail before IX. but.. I still wish for it lol.

We already have heard that the force is light and the force is dark, and that the Jedi chose the light.
Because of what it reveals I guess is new, but I don't yet know what this means.
We also learn that the Jedi Prime - the founding texts are acknowledging the force is both dark and Light - this confirms what Lor San Tekka's years of study had revealed - I suspect LST had read these texts. I remember he helped Luke to track down these rare books..
Makes sense he would have read them before Luke took them away to Ahch-to!

So, the question remains - did Kylo/Ben have the opportunity to read these books? Was he even able to - if he didn't have C3P0 to translate?
Even if the scenario of Rey needing Kylo/Ben to read the texts is no longer in play - it could be she needs him to understand them, or once he learns of them he may wish to read them and need Rey to do so.. sooooo some romance over Jedi text collaboration is not out of the question here. tee hee.
How did I get onto that? haaaa..

great to see Rey is digging into the texts - and she appears optimistic. I think that is fantastic!
Any thoughts about this new content guys? sunny
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Re: Light, Darkness, and Balance. But how?

Post by SoloSideCousin on Thu 21 Jun 2018, 2:30 am

@DeeBee wrote:Hellooooooo! How are we all?!  
There has been new content of late related to the force! I'll share!

In TLJ comic adaptation there was this little gem:
[In issue 2 of 6]

I do love this - a little moment of Poe close to realising there may be lots about the force that he doesn't know! And.. I love how Finn is such a novice to it that he can readily accept it as the force and how the force works! lol.

The whole of the comic adaptation starts with these two images:


A reminder that the force is mysterious and tricky to understand! Which I find encouraging! lol.
This sequence goes on to cover Luke and the cosmic force - but I might come back to this another day. I've had a big SW day today on my day off..

There is some new force related content in the Poe Dameron #28 comic that I'll share here.
C3P0 reads from a Jedi text to Rey:


Hmm this is pretty vague!!! and.. really doesn't tell me much about what the books say - then again, it seems unlikely I'd learn anything more about this in great detail before IX. but.. I still wish for it lol.

We already have heard that the force is light and the force is dark, and that the Jedi chose the light.
Because of what it reveals I guess is new, but I don't yet know what this means.
We also learn that the Jedi Prime - the founding texts are acknowledging the force is both dark and Light - this confirms what Lor San Tekka's years of study had revealed - I suspect LST had read these texts. I remember he helped Luke to track down these rare books..
Makes sense he would have read them before Luke took them away to Ahch-to!

So, the question remains - did Kylo/Ben have the opportunity to read these books? Was he even able to - if he didn't have C3P0 to translate?
Even if the scenario of Rey needing Kylo/Ben to read the texts is no longer in play - it could be she needs him to understand them, or once he learns of them he may wish to read them and need Rey to do so.. sooooo some romance over Jedi text collaboration is not out of the question here. tee hee.
How did I get onto that? haaaa..

great to see Rey is digging into the texts - and she appears optimistic. I think that is fantastic!
Any thoughts about this new content guys? sunny
@DeeBee

There is some hinting that Threepio may not be entirely accurate in his translation. What if Ben actually can fluently read that language after all those years with Luke? The calligraphy bit and the small huts really bring to mind the Irish monks who saved knowledge from the ancient world during the dark ages.  Those same monks also illuminated those texts beautifully, part of said illumination including calligraphy. :-)

So imagine a scene where Rey says that the book says X, and Ben counters, "Threepio didn't spend years reading this stuff. It doesn't mean that at all! Look at these words! It says Y." It's a long shot, but there is still hope he might teach Rey something about those books.

Also, I am surprised how that comic flat out says the Jedi were arrogant and didn't "get " the Force like they thought they did. It just comes across as an extra blunt criticism of the Jedi.
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Re: Light, Darkness, and Balance. But how?

Post by DeeBee on Thu 21 Jun 2018, 2:35 am

@SoloSideCousin - whooooo SoloSideCousin I like the way you think! cheers
Yeah.. Kylo/Ben needs to be C3P0's beta! haaa..

the criticism of the Jedi I shared was Luke's POV - his inner dialogue that opens the issue (1 of 6) - sorry if I didn't make that clear!
Sooo much good SW content today I am finding it hard to pull myself away! teee hee..
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Re: Light, Darkness, and Balance. But how?

Post by Night Huntress on Thu 21 Jun 2018, 3:55 am

I was thinking about the whole "balance" stuff lately- and I'm not sure if or how they will ever explain this in canon.

So this is just my personal interpretation of what it could mean... nothing from official sources or canon material backs it up, but I like to share it anyway.

Based on what we see in TLJ when Luke teaches Rey about the force, my understanding is that the force is kind of a meta for nature or the natural circle of life  . How can a few force sensitive beings possibly bring it out of balance? Having the same amount of dark-side users and light side users being THE BALANCE? That's kind of lame and very fragile if you think about it- and it would never ever be constantly in balance because one being can easily switch sides or dying and than everything would be out of balance again? I don't think so.  Confus   To quote Luke "It's so much bigger"

If we see the force as a stand-in for nature, the balance would be the natural circle of life without anything interrupting it from the outside.
In our real world that would be humanity disturbing nature by causing extinction of certain species.
For example the Bees - their extinction will cause a big impact on nature and our economy. Without their involvement many plants won't be able to reproduce- animals eating those plants will starve and so on. (very simplified but I hope you understand what I mean)

In the SW- Universe I don't think the mere existence of a force-sensitive dark or lightsider could disturb the balance. BUT if they start to influence the natural circle of life on a big scale. Like wiping out planets or whole systems...even if it's not them personally doing this- it was their influence or manipulation (Palpatine/Snoke) that caused the chain that led to all this unnatural death and destruction.
Life & death are both part of the force - but if you have all this unnatural death & destruction it could cause the circle to be "out of balance". You have more death than new life so to speak. Does that make sense?

That's when the so called "cosmic force" comes in- wanting to bring balance again by removing the cause for all those destructive influences (the Empire / First Order)  by using these force-sensitive individuals (Rey / Ben) as his "instruments" to do so.

Look at the title "The Force awakens" - it awoke because the First Order started to disturbed the natural balance of life/nature.

It also makes sense if you think about TLJ and Luke's decision to remove himself from the conflict. In his mind his involvement made everything worse- and not just his personal one but the involvement of the Jedi in general. He made a mistake that led to Ben's fall which added to the "destructive influence" because Ben joined Snoke and the First Order. It's not that simple of course...the force sometimes needs "help" from the outside to righten what went wrong. I guess that's what Luke realizes by the end- you can't just ignore your mistakes and hope the consequences go away with time.

I personally hope that in IX they will touch more on this "balance" being so much bigger than a few petulant force-users. And bringing balance means letting nature do his thing...maybe even throwing the concept of one big galactic government out of the window because nothing good came out of it so far.

Also on the smaller scale- balance meaning that light and dark are both part of your nature and repression one or the other is what causes suffering and pain.

Puh- sorry for the long rant...hope to hear your thoughts on this.
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Re: Light, Darkness, and Balance. But how?

Post by Saracene on Thu 21 Jun 2018, 6:03 am

My understanding from Luke's explanation in TLJ is that the force is like an ocean - a balanced eco-system where life and death, creation and destruction are a part of a natural cycle. Whereas the dark side is something like an oil spill, and the very notion of the balance between the dark side and the light side makes no sense.

On a more personal level, it can get a bit confusing, but I don't get an impression that emotions like fear, anger, etc. are expressions of the dark side, necessarily. You don't automatically tap into the dark side when you burn your fingers and swear your head off. There's also no indication, for instance, that when Obi-Wan got really angry and fired up during his fight with Darth Maul he was channeling the dark side. It's more that perhaps these emotions were seen as something that can lead you to the dark side.
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Re: Light, Darkness, and Balance. But how?

Post by Night Huntress on Thu 21 Jun 2018, 6:27 am

@Saracene

you mean the balance- or "cycle of life" is the force but only what we understand as "the light side" and the dark side is corruption and it should be "destroyed" ?

not saying your understanding is wrong- but I disagree of this concept. Because you will never be able to fully "destroy" dark feelings- and if you can have this dark feelings but still be on the light side, why were the Jedi so keen on forbidding it in the first place?
In my opinion oppressing these feelings is what ultimately led Anakin and Ben to fall to the dark side.
It's like when you constantly keep calm and not saying or acting out on your anger and than one day you'll explode because all those contained negative energy.

I'm still on the "the force does not take sides" train- means it's only your intentions that could be dark...not the force itself.
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Re: Light, Darkness, and Balance. But how?

Post by Saracene on Thu 21 Jun 2018, 6:51 am

@Night Huntress I found it significant that Luke described the years after the end of RotJ as, "for a time, there was balance" (or something to that effect). That's right after the two powerful dark-siders, Vader and Palpatine, were both destroyed. So to me it seems that the lack of dark side *is* balance.

The Jedi weren't just iffy about the "dark" emotions, they were wary of love and attachment as well, which I doubt can be described as dark. Their idea of personal balance seems to have been a sort of serene detachment, where a person is not ruled by either positive or negative emotions. It's all pretty confusing, which I guess is what happens when you make things up as you go along?
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Re: Light, Darkness, and Balance. But how?

Post by Night Huntress on Thu 21 Jun 2018, 7:05 am

@Saracene wrote:@Night Huntress I found it significant that Luke described the years after the end of RotJ as, "for a time, there was balance" (or something to that effect). That's right after the two powerful dark-siders, Vader and Palpatine, were both destroyed. So to me it seems that the lack of dark side *is* balance.
@Saracene

Yes- but first of all...we don't know if what Luke said was really the case. He assumed there was balance- but was there really?

Let's say he was right. I go back to my statement in the other post that I don't think the mere existence of a dark sider causes "unbalance".
Vader & Palpatine dying could have brought balance- but not because there was 2 dark-siders dead, but because they caused a massive destruction and disturbed the natural cycle of life. Palpatine had caused so much death and misery while he was ruling and so was Vader as his enforcer.

But we know Snoke is ancient and while he wasn't in the picture by RotJ he definitely were looming around from somewhere. So if balance means ALL dark-siders dead there was never balance and they never will be. Because some greedy force-sensitive baddie can pop-up every time ruining it.
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Re: Light, Darkness, and Balance. But how?

Post by Saracene on Thu 21 Jun 2018, 7:28 am

@Night Huntress Unless Luke's statements are explicitly disproved I see no reason not to take them as true? I mean, if the filmmakers want the audience to get certain facts, there has to be reliability to what the characters say unless they are shown to be wrong or lying.

It's true that Palpatine caused massive destruction, but isn't it possible to cause massive destruction regardless of whether you have special powers or not? When you get down to it, Palpatine could just have been a regular non-force sensitive who patiently worked his way up the political ladder and became an Emperor. Snoke could just have been any rich dude who raised an army. If you can disrupt the balance without being a dark-sider and it's just about how many people you kill, then why the stress on the dark side users at all?
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