Light, Darkness, and Balance. But how?

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Re: Light, Darkness, and Balance. But how?

Post by PalmettoBlue on Fri 29 Dec 2017, 8:13 pm

@snufkin wrote:@SheLitAFire I've posted a couple times, but you have a writer/director who's spoken openly (there's an old podcast he did with Kevin Smith) about being raised Evangelical and how that informs the films he's made, plus all 3 lead male actors (and the 2 who are the main trio are both preacher's kids) also come from that background. Essentially I got the impression that the message Luke was trying to convey about ending the Jedi almost made him like John Luther and the Protestant Reformation. If you can look at the PT era and before as being the Holy Roman Empire for the position the Jedi held in society. The message about how the Force belongs to everybody is very much Luther's "Every man a minister" - having clergy be more egalitarian and how egalitarian depending on whether you're a mainline or Evangelical/charismatic Protestant. That's the message at the end with Rey realizing that she doesn't need Luke or Ben to save her friends, she can do that herself by performing an act which is like Moses parting the Red Sea. Which again, the shot is of two of the three actors who come from that religious upbringing, you think they didn't notice that? The final bit with Rey and Leia about starting a new Resistance/Rebellion and Leia says, "We have all we need here," I very much read that as the start of a new congregation/family of man.

The other thing with people arguing pro and con about what happens to Ben, I still very much see that as the scenario where nobody is too far down the Dark Path to not deserve grace and redemption. Which is a big part of the training I got as a Methodist, especially the history of John Wesley's time here in the Colonies. Anytime I read somebody saying that's it, he's going to die, I'm like did you read the Parable of the Prodigal Son? Because that's not the message in it and you sound like the Elder Son.
@snufkin
^^^ All of this. And I keep harping on the Jedi monastic thought as being unnatural. That was also one of Luther’s things, that sex was a natural thing. And I understand that the Jedi mostly forbade attachments, not necessarily physical connections, but in the film saga world, sex wasn’t a thing outside of the context of marriage. Luther, of course, said that sex should be within the confines of marriage as well - mostly for reproduction, but I don’t think we need a deep dive into Protestant theology here.
And I didn’t miss that holding hands over fire...and I know my husband and I held hands during our wedding ceremony. This is ancient symbolism of marriage here...but I’ve strayed from my point.
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Re: Light, Darkness, and Balance. But how?

Post by snufkin on Fri 29 Dec 2017, 10:07 pm

@PalmettoBlue Wasn't there some MH quote about how it's all about the hands? Hands you say, where have we seen that before in the franchise?


Spoiler:













Yeah I'm thinking that they turned Luke into the Martin Luther of the Jedi by the end of the film/franchise with his speech to Rey about the hubris of confusing the Jedi with Force Users. They even sort of show that with Leia's Mary Poppins moment and Rey parting a Red Sea of boulders.
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Re: Light, Darkness, and Balance. But how?

Post by PalmettoBlue on Sat 30 Dec 2017, 6:36 am

@snufkin I wonder if the hand on the hip in the midst of an intricate dance (fight) counts....
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Re: Light, Darkness, and Balance. But how?

Post by PalmettoBlue on Sat 30 Dec 2017, 6:59 pm

I’m re-watching R1....Would they use the concept of Guardians of the Whills? Chirrut is a Force user, but he’s not drawing on any particular ideology as near as I can tell. He seems pretty balanced to me. And he was the last of his kind, right? Nothing left to guard.
So, not guardians, not exactly...but perhaps bring some of that mythology for the future?
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Re: Light, Darkness, and Balance. But how?

Post by SheLitAFire on Sun 31 Dec 2017, 11:17 am

@PalmettoBlue

I'd actually really enjoy that. I feel like some things from these stand alone movies have to play out/be important to the trilogy saga overall.
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Re: Light, Darkness, and Balance. But how?

Post by rawpowah on Sun 31 Dec 2017, 4:06 pm

I'm hoping for a refined Jedi sight that doesn't encourage the suppression of one's emotions and the elimination of attachments.

To me it seems like one should learn how to accept both the darkness and light inside of you and balance it and use it for good instead of evil. Even Rey taps into the dark side, but uses it for good. Even the island on which the first Jedi temple was located had the dark cave. Darkness isn't something you can completely eradicate. It's part of you and you have to learn how to balance it.
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Re: Light, Darkness, and Balance. But how?

Post by PalmettoBlue on Sun 31 Dec 2017, 7:39 pm

@rawpowah I think that’s the point - I think refined Jedi sight looks to the nature of the Force. There is no light without dark...literally.

Where is the storyline about the Bendu? Doesn’t he say there’s the light and the dark and he’s the one in the middle? There’s a whole discussion about the Nature of the Force over in the romantic Reylo thread, but I’m not wading over there. Suffice it to say, I think we are going to see more Force users like Chirrut. It’s egalitarian and fits in with my understanding of the Force as portrayed in the new canon.

As I’ve said before, I think Ben is going to have to find balance within himself...and that’s going to be a challenge.
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Discussion: The Balance of the Force

Post by DeeBee on Fri 05 Jan 2018, 5:18 pm

Hi Everyone!
I thought I'd get this thread created so we have a place for our collective thoughts on the balance of the force and what it all means.. [edited to add 1feb2018: this thread has since been merged with another thread..]

Now we have seen 8 of the 9 movies - what do you think it means for the force to have 'balance'?
If anyone is interested, I'm curious to dig a little deeper here.. I don't believe I have any answers.. but I'd like this thread to be a space to explore and throw out ideas..or questions Smile
How does the way balance and the force is portrayed in previous movies fit?
Can there be balance without both the light and the dark?
Or should there be no light or dark? only balance?
How are you viewing things at the moment?

I'll dig into things more as we discuss so I won't start this thread by sharing all my current thoughts.. [that could get a little scary Wink ]

I'll just say that for me, the vibe I'm getting his: it seems much of what we learned about the force from the Jedi in the PT and OT is turning out to be faulty thinking.. so there is a question of what knowledge to keep and what to throw away.
It seems the paradigm of:
Jedi = good =  light & Sith = evil = dark
is being shown to be too simplistic and not accurate.

Rey keeps talking about Kylo 'turning' - but what does that even mean?
What does it mean for someone from the dark side to be redeemed?
I look forward to discussing these ideas over the next 2 years! lol! Smile


Last edited by DeeBee on Thu 01 Feb 2018, 2:30 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : added comment)
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Re: Light, Darkness, and Balance. But how?

Post by PalmettoBlue on Fri 05 Jan 2018, 5:29 pm

I just re-watched the Mortis Arc today as I was going through mounds of clothes (okay, not relevant, but hellish nonetheless.) I mention this because of this...
In the "scrolls" before the episodes, it says: "Balance is found in the one who faces his guilt." Another episode said: "Nothing ever really dies." That latter one gives me the heebee jeebees because Snoke, but that's for a different thread.
But for this thread, the former is particularly relevant.
Also, these three episodes really emphasize the fact that you don't have the light without the dark and vice versa. The key is to not to fall too deeply into the dark and become completely corrupted by it.
I think that's the thing they are going for in this whole trilogy: Balance is to avoid extremism, to find equilibrium within oneself...and above all - no one's ever really gone.
#savebensolo
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Re: Light, Darkness, and Balance. But how?

Post by DeeBee on Fri 05 Jan 2018, 6:14 pm

@PalmettoBlue wrote:I just re-watched the Mortis Arc today as I was going through mounds of clothes (okay, not relevant, but hellish nonetheless.) I mention this because of this...
In the "scrolls" before the episodes, it says: "Balance is found in the one who faces his guilt." Another episode said: "Nothing ever really dies." That latter one gives me the heebee jeebees because Snoke, but that's for a different thread.
But for this thread, the former is particularly relevant.
Also, these three episodes really emphasize the fact that you don't have the light without the dark and vice versa. The key is to not to fall too deeply into the dark and become completely corrupted by it.
I think that's the thing they are going for in this whole trilogy: Balance is to avoid extremism, to find equilibrium within oneself...and above all - no one's ever really gone.
#savebensolo
@PalmettoBlue

Whoooooo I have flagged that clone wars ep to watch! I'm going to aim to watch it and come back here to reply to you soon.
Thanks for the reminder PalmettoBlue. I don't have time to watch all clone wars, but I can at least watch the eps full of force/balance info!

edited to add: I finished watching the Mortis Arc of the clone wars.. there are three episodes that this article [url=http://www.syfy.com/syfywire/connecting-the-star-wars-animated-series-to-the-last-jedi[/url] suggests watching in season 3: episode 15 (overlords), episode 16 (altar of Mortis) and episode 17 (ghosts of Mortis).

The Father, Son and Daughter of Mortis are new to me! Phew.. intense!!

Over this three episode arc there is a big focus on knowing yourself... facing your demons/guilt.. saving the universe.. but also on choices and the future not being set. Soooo I'm not sure what conclusions I can draw from this! I'm not sure how much of this was symbolism and a vision.. or whether it actually took place?!

When the father says to his son 'You and I are tied together' - and then the father kills the son, and they both die???!!!! [gah noooooooo... please don't let this be the fate of Rey and Kylo!!!] Anyway.. Anakin brought balance to Mortis because the Father, the son and the daughter were all dead. lol. here's hoping that balance in IX will not be through similar means!!! lol.

Anyone know this content well and care to share? Smile


Last edited by DeeBee on Fri 05 Jan 2018, 11:16 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : comment updated...)
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Re: Light, Darkness, and Balance. But how?

Post by thescavenger on Fri 05 Jan 2018, 6:30 pm

I've been having this conversation debate with my brother since TFA, but he insists that they have retconned the idea of 'balance' in the ST. So his line of thinking goes that in the PT and OT, the idea of balance meant the light or the good side whereas the Dark meant imbalance. But then he did also say that ST is trying to move towards the grey and the fact that there is such thing as a Light side of the Force and Dark side of the Force which are two opposing poles.

I'm not quite sure yet, personally, but what do you think?
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Re: Light, Darkness, and Balance. But how?

Post by snufkin on Fri 05 Jan 2018, 9:20 pm

It's a bit of a meta-theme, but the Balance between holding on to the past and looking towards the future is a be a big one for this film, this trilogy, and the franchise. Especially with Ben and Rey's arcs, but also the director's statement about learning to appreciate/make the best use of the past while not letting it rule you. Which um, again seems to be a big theme for these two characters. Rey learns that she may be nobody from nowhere, but that doesn't mean that she can't be the heroine of her own story and rise to help others/do great things. Ben finally achieves the status and power he believes (in part because of Luke and Snoke's influence as his Masters) that he's entitled to by his bloodline. Except he ends up lost and alone at the end, still very much feeling the tug of the 'lesser' side of his Bloodline, Han's. And very much without the support and understanding he found with Rey. Question will be both the balancing of the Light and the Dark with the balancing of the past and the present/future.

In terms of the Balance between the past and the future, that's also where the Canto Bight and kid with a broom part comes in. That the cycle starts over again with new FS individuals, such as a young stable hand or a young woman who was an orphan/indentured servant, but who was more than that. And the new trilogy they're talking about, with new characters, will likely be a furthering of this theme.
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Re: Light, Darkness, and Balance. But how?

Post by DeeBee on Fri 05 Jan 2018, 10:47 pm

hi all!
I've been digging into the force a little..  If I come across anything of interest I'll share.. but do please share anything you find too Smile

Here's an interesting GL quote related to the force.
source: https://www.flickeringmyth.com/2011/07/hot-rods-droids-george-lucas-profile/

“The overriding philosophy in Episode I – and in all the Star Wars movies for that matter, is the balance between good and evil. The Force itself breaks into two sides: the living Force and the greater, cosmic Force. The living Force makes you sensitive to other living things, makes you intuitive, and makes you able to read other people’s minds. But the greater Force has to do with destiny. In working with the Force, you can find your destiny and you can chose to follow it, or not.”

There is a philosophy of balance between good and evil - but does that mean balancing the force means there must be a balance between good and evil? I'm thinking this isn't necessarily the same thing.. but 'balance' is being used differently here in this quote.
What I find interesting is the two sides of the force mentioned by GL! and the talk of destiny and choosing to follow it or not.


Looking for credible sources...
I've found this blurb on the starwars database about the force priestesses (who live on the force planet):
"Dwelling on an unnamed planet in the heart of the galaxy, these five mysterious beings embodied the connection between the living Force present in lifeforms big and small, and the larger, timeless cosmic Force. Mutable in form, the Priestesses manifested as Serenity, Joy, Anger, Confusion, and Sadness. They tested Master Yoda on their homeworld, helping him attain a larger understanding of the Force and learn to preserve his identity after death." http://www.starwars.com/databank/force-priestesses
This seems to confirm the force as being made up of both the living force and the cosmic force.
Interesting..  No wonder this all feels so opaque Wink

Is balancing 'the force' referring to the living force? or the cosmic force? or both?! lol maybe it doesn't even matter Wink
As a thought experiment, I'm going to guess that if the cosmic force is 'timeless',  it is what is always working to bring the living force back into balance... so when discussing bringing balance - it is referring to the living force.
If there is the timeless force that is overseeing things (which has a 'will') this would be distinct from the force that is needing to be brought back into balance.  
Thus, it could be the cosmic force that is at work in Rey and Kylo's 'intertwined destinies'. I'm guessing it would be the cosmic force that either created their force bond, or ensured the force bond continued once Snoke was toast. lol.
What do you all think?

No pressure to dig into this.. I'm guessing over the next two years the appetite for digging deeper into things will fluctuate.. so if the mood strikes you - and you wish to explore the balance of the force- here is a spot to do so! Smile
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Re: Light, Darkness, and Balance. But how?

Post by DeeBee on Fri 05 Jan 2018, 11:44 pm

@thescavenger wrote:I've been having this conversation debate with my brother since TFA, but he insists that they have retconned the idea of 'balance' in the ST. So his line of thinking goes that in the PT and OT, the idea of balance meant the light or the good side whereas the Dark meant imbalance. But then he did also say that ST is trying to move towards the grey and the fact that there is such thing as a Light side of the Force and Dark side of the Force which are two opposing poles.

I'm not quite sure yet, personally, but what do you think?
@thescavenger

Oh for sure I'm not quite sure yet either. lol. and probably won't have put the puzzle together even after watching episode IX Wink
I resist the idea of viewing the idea of balance being retconned.
Instead, I view it as a story unfolding over the 9 episodes as a whole - and what is known about bringing balance over the course of the story changes.. the story itself is about figuring this out IMHO of course.
The unfolding story itself teaches us about what balance is and is not I think.
If we can look back on what we are told about the balance, we can test whether it is supported by the story that has unfolded, or if it is an error.. or if maybe it is unknowable at this point.  
Too much of the light was not balance. We were being told by the jedi that eliminating darkness was the goal but it doesn't seem to be what the force wanted or needed to be in balance if looking at the story overall..

In TLJ Yoda and Luke have seen that the Jedi order was flawed in it's thinking and understanding of balance..
This for me opens up the question of how they were flawed in their understanding of both the dark and the light sides of the force..

I'm trying to keep an open mind and just explore it. The story is still unfolding..  

At this point all I can feel confident in is that the force is always working to bring itself back into an equilibrium between both the dark and the light. The extremes of the Jedi order and the Sith brought about imbalances in the force over millenia.. and therefore the paradigm of extreme light being 'good' needs to be reconsidered.
I keep catching myself thinking that light = good.. and for peace to exist there can be no darkness - however, from how the story has unfolded and the force's need to balance dark and light - I'm thinking somehow, in a way I don't understand, the darkness is needed for there to be peace and balance. Mind bending..
This suggests darkness is not = to evil. Which makes sense- passion is not in itself a bad thing.. nor is anger or fear - there can be righteous anger, and fear is a basis for courage.. maybe darkness is only 'evil' when taken to extremes...

Okay. my head hurts. I'm off to give my brain a rest. bye!
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Re: Light, Darkness, and Balance. But how?

Post by DeeBee on Fri 05 Jan 2018, 11:47 pm

@snufkin wrote:It's a bit of a meta-theme, but the Balance between holding on to the past and looking towards the future is a be a big one for this film, this trilogy, and the franchise. Especially with Ben and Rey's arcs, but also the director's statement about learning to appreciate/make the best use of the past while not letting it rule you. Which um, again seems to be a big theme for these two characters. Rey learns that she may be nobody from nowhere, but that doesn't mean that she can't be the heroine of her own story and rise to help others/do great things. Ben finally achieves the status and power he believes (in part because of Luke and Snoke's influence as his Masters) that he's entitled to by his bloodline. Except he ends up lost and alone at the end, still very much feeling the tug of the 'lesser' side of his Bloodline, Han's. And very much without the support and understanding he found with Rey. Question will be both the balancing of the Light and the Dark with the balancing of the past and the present/future.

In terms of the Balance between the past and the future, that's also where the Canto Bight and kid with a broom part comes in. That the cycle starts over again with new FS individuals, such as a young stable hand or a young woman who was an orphan/indentured servant, but who was more than that. And the new trilogy they're talking about, with new characters, will likely be a furthering of this theme.
@snufkin

Great catch snufkin! 'Balance' as a general theme is pervasive it's true.. even if not related directly to the balancing of the force.
Heading into TLJ I thought maybe balance was going to be no force users in future.. but given broom boy and Rey's mission to reform and grow the jedi- this seems to not be where the future of the franchise is headed...
There will be force users.. but different.. ?
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Re: Light, Darkness, and Balance. But how?

Post by snufkin on Sat 06 Jan 2018, 12:25 am

@DeeBee - I think it's meant to be similar to the theme of one of my favorite novels, Jonathan Strange and Mr Norrell, where magic has been absent from the world for 200 years. And even then it's been the purview of people in the highest echelons of that society. But the course of the novel is about how it starts coming back and is a more wild, natural, and democratic force (pun intended) which all different members of society have access to. That seems to be the point going forward, both with Luke's line about thinking that ending the Jedi means that the Force goes away is nonsense. And we see it with Rey (and they have to hit the audience over the head with "you have no place in this story," which is the story of how in the past it was reserved for a privileged few) and the kid with the broom.

Also in terms of Balance, between the past/legacy and the present, that's something the director has stressed over and over again for Ben/Kylo
One of the more interesting for me was Kylo Ren, especially his notion of moving forward cutting off his past. That’s something that all of us can relate to. As you get older you realize that behavior might feel appealing and cathartic, but if you think that’s progressing—by throwing away what came before—you’re probably fooling yourself. The past is there, and it’s always going to be there. That’s the lesson.
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Re: Light, Darkness, and Balance. But how?

Post by PalmettoBlue on Sat 06 Jan 2018, 6:14 am

One of the things they say straight out in the Mortis Arc is that there is no dark without the light and no light without the dark. That’s why I think Luke was mistaken when he says that there was balance after the Battle of Endor.
It was also confirmed that Anakin was indeed the Chosen One, so there’s that.
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Re: Light, Darkness, and Balance. But how?

Post by DeeBee on Sun 07 Jan 2018, 8:24 pm

@PalmettoBlue wrote:One of the things they say straight out in the Mortis Arc is that there is no dark without the light and no light without the dark. That’s why I think Luke was mistaken when he says that there was balance after the Battle of Endor.
It was also confirmed that Anakin was indeed the Chosen One, so there’s that.
@PalmettoBlue

Yes!!! that whole idea of just pursuing the light seems faulty!

So I find it curious when we hear Rey talking of turning Kylo back - I find it curious.. what does she have in mind?
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Re: Light, Darkness, and Balance. But how?

Post by DeeBee on Sun 07 Jan 2018, 8:42 pm

I'll include here the dialogue I transcribed from Rey's first lesson with Luke about the force and balance (not beta'd but fairly confident Wink ):
R: Master Skywalker, we need you to bring the Jedi back because Kylo Ren is strong in the dark side of the force. Without the Jedi we won’t stand a chance against him.
L: what do you know about the force?
R: it’s a power that Jedi have that lets them control people and... make things... float.
L: Impressive. Every word in that sentence is wrong.
Lesson 1! Sit here, legs crossed, (Rey sits). The force is not a power that you have. It’s not about lifting rocks. It’s the energy between all things. A tension, a balance that binds the universe together.
R: Okay. But.. what is it?
L: Close your eyes. Breathe. Now. Reach out.
(she reaches out physically.. and Luke teases her with the plant..)
R: Oh I feel something!!
L: oh it’s really strong here!!
R: ow!! You meant reach out like…..I’ll try again.
L: Breathe. Just breathe. Reach out with your feelings. What do you see?
R: The island, life, death and decay and it feeds new life. Warm, cold. Peace. Violence.
L: And between it all…
R: Balance. Energy. A force.
L: And inside you?
R: Inside me, that same force.
L: and this is the lesson. That force does not belong to the Jedi. To say if the Jedi die the light dies is vanity, can you feel that?
R: there’s something else. Beneath the island. A place. A dark place.
L: Balance. Powerful light. Powerful darkness.
R: it’s cold.
R: it’s calling me!
L: Resist it Rey! Rey! Reeeeeeyyyy!!!!
(She snaps out of it. Gasping.)
L: you went straight to the dark.
R: it was trying to show me something.
L: it offered you something you needed. You didn’t even try to stop yourself.
R: I didn’t see you. Nothing from you. You’ve closed yourself off from the force. Of course you have.
L: I’ve seen this raw strength only once before, in Ben Solo. It didn’t scare me enough then, it does now.
-scene ends-

If the darkness was offering her something she needed - why did she need to try and stop herself?
Interesting that Rey's description of balance includes both peace and violence. Hmm..
I remember the visual with it was waves crashing over some porg eggs or something..
Was the visual with peace a happy porg family all huddled together happily? I can't remember..

How does this peace and violence fit in with wars in the galaxy?
I wonder if we can't take a direct 1-1 comparison between this peace and violence and peace and war in the galaxy..

Anyway - aside from that.. Luke seems to confirm he sees balance as the equal existence of light and dark. I think. lol.
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Re: Light, Darkness, and Balance. But how?

Post by ISeeAnIsland on Sun 07 Jan 2018, 10:35 pm

@DeeBee wrote:I'll include here the dialogue I transcribed from Rey's first lesson with Luke about the force and balance (not beta'd but fairly confident Wink ):
R: Master Skywalker, we need you to bring the Jedi back because Kylo Ren is strong in the dark side of the force. Without the Jedi we won’t stand a chance against him.
L: what do you know about the force?
R: it’s a power that Jedi have that lets them control people and... make things... float.
L: Impressive. Every word in that sentence is wrong.
Lesson 1! Sit here, legs crossed, (Rey sits). The force is not a power that you have. It’s not about lifting rocks. It’s the energy between all things. A tension, a balance that binds the universe together.
R: Okay. But.. what is it?
L: Close your eyes. Breathe. Now. Reach out.
(she reaches out physically.. and Luke teases her with the plant..)
R: Oh I feel something!!
L: oh it’s really strong here!!
R: ow!! You meant reach out like…..I’ll try again.
L: Breathe. Just breathe. Reach out with your feelings. What do you see?
R: The island, life, death and decay and it feeds new life. Warm, cold. Peace. Violence.
L: And between it all…
R: Balance. Energy. A force.
L: And inside you?
R: Inside me, that same force.
L: and this is the lesson. That force does not belong to the Jedi. To say if the Jedi die the light dies is vanity, can you feel that?
R: there’s something else. Beneath the island. A place. A dark place.
L: Balance. Powerful light. Powerful darkness.
R: it’s cold.
R: it’s calling me!
L: Resist it Rey! Rey! Reeeeeeyyyy!!!!
(She snaps out of it. Gasping.)
L: you went straight to the dark.
R: it was trying to show me something.
L: it offered you something you needed. You didn’t even try to stop yourself.
R: I didn’t see you. Nothing from you. You’ve closed yourself off from the force. Of course you have.
L: I’ve seen this raw strength only once before, in Ben Solo. It didn’t scare me enough then, it does now.
-scene ends-

If the darkness was offering her something she needed - why did she need to try and stop herself?
Interesting that Rey's description of balance includes both peace and violence. Hmm..
I remember the visual with it was waves crashing over some porg eggs or something..
Was the visual with peace a happy porg family all huddled together happily? I can't remember..

How does this peace and violence fit in with wars in the galaxy?
I wonder if we can't take a direct 1-1 comparison between this peace and violence and peace and war in the galaxy..

Anyway - aside from that.. Luke seems to confirm he sees balance as the equal existence of light and dark. I think. lol.
@DeeBee

And interesting in that "showing her something she needed"... It shows her endless copies of herself...and a shadow of Ben.
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Re: Light, Darkness, and Balance. But how?

Post by DeeBee on Sun 07 Jan 2018, 11:24 pm

@ISeeAnIsland wrote:

And interesting in that "showing her something she needed"... It shows her endless copies of herself...and a shadow of Ben.
@ISeeAnIsland

Warm fuzzies right there ISeeAnIsland ! Smile Yep I thought the shadow hinted at Ben too!

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Re: Light, Darkness, and Balance. But how?

Post by DeeBee on Tue 09 Jan 2018, 12:09 am

This Balance thing continues to fester for me Wink
Is Balance something that is within individuals or universe wide? or both?

I'm thinking balance can't be fully dark Kylo and fully light Rey balancing each other. that sort of thing would just perpetuate the whole Jedi/Sith extremes. Maybe Kylo needs to turn back to the light - in terms of letting in more light.. but not fully extinguishing the dark either. Maybe this would be 'turning'? Although the language in TLJ is the same as previous films, the goal is to return to balance - not just return to the light?
maybe Rey needs to let in more dark - more passion and emotions.. but also retain the light. But then, she is not well trained in the Jedi ways at this point so she is probably naturally quite well balanced..

I'm also thinking however, that balance is likely not dependent on Kylo and Rey each being internally balanced. As this would be something that would change moment to moment. Balance would be the ideal - the default they would constantly return to if they are to live with balance.

Rey's new reformed Jedi need to incorporate the light and the dark - Gee if only she had someone she knew who had been like you know. umm trained in like um both the Light and the Dark who could support her in this quest of hers. Oh dear. where oh where could she find someone like that?! haaaaa

The whole throne room sequence seems to illustrate what Balance can be - when the dark and the light work together united. And it was when experiencing this balance that Kylo felt no internal conflict. This has something to do with the answers here, but I also think we don't know enough yet. So I don't expect to be able to form definitive answers!

I keep thinking of the time before the Jedi and Sith split.. anyone knowledgeable about this stuff? Me no. I'm a real beginner here! but I'd be interested in learning more about it.. the canon stuff.
I've seen a holocron said the Jedi and Sith were once 'brothers' before the hundred year darkness in a comic I  came across  - [I love the Jedi relics idea and was reading about Grakkus the Hutt - there is even a line about Luke being the Last Jedi.. whoooo]

Also, Lor San Tekka, who studied both the dark and the light sides and knew a thing or two, said that both sides are 'in many ways the same' [see on the next page my comment where I've shared this comic strip if you are interested..]

I can't shake the thought in the back of my mind that somehow Snoke was aware of balance also.. but not sure what to do with him and lol we may not need to think about him anymore anyway. haaaa.. I'll wait till I hear news that Andy Serkis is in IX again or something before I truly give myself a brain strain. TFA visual dictionary says about Kylo: "The Supreme Leader believes Ren to be the ideal embodiment of the Force, a focal point of both light and dark side ability." - maybe Snoke was right.. but he had nefarious plans..

Anyway, getting back to the internal/external balance thought - having some kind of external relic -like the Kazerath Device [see next page for info if you are interested..] that needs to be operated by both the light and the darkness together seems a pretty simple way to illustrate the balance being achieved in the living force throughout the galaxy. Very significant as who could have guessed there would ever be a time or place that a Jedi and Sith would work together to operate something and bring about balance?

Plus, the internal balance of force users will be better placed to be maintained once the living force is balanced..
If the Kazerath is a red herring, I can certainly see some other kind of holy site or relic having a role to play.
Okay enough rambles..
Am I making any sense at all here? lol! Smile


Last edited by DeeBee on Tue 13 Feb 2018, 4:50 pm; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : updated where to find comic)
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Re: Light, Darkness, and Balance. But how?

Post by DeeBee on Fri 12 Jan 2018, 8:37 pm

Hi All..
Just thought I'd share a few clips of the new Vader comic..
Vader is fighting Jocasta Nu here..
I thought what she said was interesting..








Seems to me the message is- as long as life exists there will always be light and darkness - because the force is eternal.

It's on youtube if you are interested https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HpPmanD_f5E
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Re: Light, Darkness, and Balance. But how?

Post by DeeBee on Thu 18 Jan 2018, 6:05 pm

Hi all,
Anytime balance comes up.. my ears prick up! Very Happy
I thought I'd share this little tidbit about Maz from the Force Awakens Visual dictionary..


the reference to 'cosmic balance' is super interesting - especially as I've been learning about the cosmic force and the living force. To me, this implies that balance may have a number of different dimensions.
Here we have mention of the blend combination of ancient and current, and of technology and nature.. and 'contrast'.

This is consistent with balance being not just an internal condition intrinsic to an individual force user referring to their balance of light and dark.. but also referring to the condition of the universe as a whole, beyond the individual.

I tell ya.. I may be way off track here, but I'm finding thinking more about the force and balance to be really enjoyable and helpful Smile

edited to add: this idea of 'contrast' is really interesting.
I've wondered why some in LF are opposed to the idea of grey jedi.. I've gotten the vibe that grey is not where things are headed but I have been pondering why. The idea of contrast might provide an answer.
When things are grey - there is no contrast it is just grey (or gray depending on your version of english!).
Balance seems to imply the co-existence of contrasts - rather than the merging of two contrasts to become something different and unidimensional. When taking into consideration the yin/yang symbol this makes sense! At least.. it does to me.. lol..


Last edited by DeeBee on Thu 18 Jan 2018, 6:16 pm; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : added thought..)
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Force Lore - Canon Sequel Trilogy Discussion..

Post by DeeBee on Fri 19 Jan 2018, 7:39 pm

Hi Everyone,
I've been looking for a place to discuss force related topics and the ST.
I see threads about the force bond, and about balance and the nature of the force.. but I'm not seeing anywhere to discuss force abilities, the jedi texts, force artifacts, Luke's quest etc.. so I'll start this thread for it, and if I've overlooked a thread I'll trust the mods will incorporate this thread in time..

I've bitten the bullet because I'm super intrigued by some RJ twitter posts that @KyloRey shared in the general discussion topic.
I'll quote this here:
@Kylo Rey wrote:






How to destroy your haters without a single word: A Thread by Rian Johnson.
@Kylo Rey - thanks again for sharing!

This is super interesting! Does anyone have these books? Looking at Amazon it seems to be a box set of some kind..
What really caught my attention was the entry about the advanced force technique 'Art of the Small' - a Jedi can shrink themselves down to the size of a single atom??!!! how cool is that!!! 'Allowing for an unprecedented degree of stealth' - I love this!!!

So who here is as excited about this as I am???!!!!

A few thoughts come to mind in light of this..
The TLJ says not much about the jedi texts, but it seems they are set up to play a central role in the plot of IX. Would you agree?

I haven't found much info about the texts.. they are still quite mysterious.
But I did find this reference in TLJ visual dictionary:  “Luke’s travels have allowed him to collect and assemble ancient scriptures containing lost Jedi wisdom and abilities. Actual books such as these are a true primitive rarity.”
So far this is all I can find on their contents.. The books contain lost Jedi wisdom and abilities – that sounds super intriguing!!! What lost abilities??!!!! I want to know!!!!

I'll stick this info here so I can find it later also:
The SW databank describes the jedi texts too: “The fabled founding texts of the Jedi Order are sheltered from Ahch-To’s weather by the huge trunk of a once-mighty uneti tree. This collection of ancient tomes was painstakingly assembled by Luke Skywalker, but has now become a burden and a torment.”
-I like to check if the databank gets added to from time to time.. this is the only place I've found so far that refers to them as 'founding' texts of the Jedi order.

Do you think Snoke would know Jedi training?
Okay gotta run!


Last edited by DeeBee on Fri 19 Jan 2018, 8:28 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : typo)
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