Romantic Reylo AKA the Who's Your Daddy Thread

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Post by PalmettoBlue on Mon 25 Dec - 22:49

@rey09 wrote:
@Cowgirlsamurai wrote:I keep asking myself if Kylo is the focus of this trilogy and they just made the POV character a girl for the feminine gaze aspect. Rey’s character is kind of vague and unpredictable to me, especially after TLJ.
@Cowgirlsamurai  I was thinking this too, it really felt like Kylo was more of a "main" character after TLJ to me.
@rey09

I can see what y'all are saying, but I felt like Rian sorted it out for me when he said that Rey and Kylo were two halves of our protagonist. The sequel trilogy is their story.
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Post by vaderito on Mon 25 Dec - 22:53

@rey09 wrote:
@Cowgirlsamurai wrote:I keep asking myself if Kylo is the focus of this trilogy and they just made the POV character a girl for the feminine gaze aspect. Rey’s character is kind of vague and unpredictable to me, especially after TLJ.
@Cowgirlsamurai  I was thinking this too, it really felt like Kylo was more of a "main" character after TLJ to me.
@rey09

I think that they wanted TFA to be more of a Rey movie and TLJ more of a Kylo movie and then likely IX is gonna be a big Rey and Kylo movie.

Moreover, someone's story told from another character's POV is very common but maybe ST makers aren't as clever as Bronte (Rochester story, Jane POV) and Austen (Darcy story, Lizzie POV)? IMO, the problem aren't Rey and Kylo parts or only Rey or only Kylo ones, but that the movie has too many characters who dilute the "voice" of the movie. Just too many POVs.
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Post by Cowgirlsamurai on Tue 26 Dec - 1:07

@vaderito wrote:
@rey09 wrote:
@Cowgirlsamurai wrote:I keep asking myself if Kylo is the focus of this trilogy and they just made the POV character a girl for the feminine gaze aspect. Rey’s character is kind of vague and unpredictable to me, especially after TLJ.
@Cowgirlsamurai  I was thinking this too, it really felt like Kylo was more of a "main" character after TLJ to me.
@rey09

I think that they wanted TFA to be more of a Rey movie and TLJ more of a Kylo movie and then likely IX is gonna be a big Rey and Kylo movie.

Moreover, someone's story told from another character's POV is very common but maybe ST makers aren't as clever as Bronte (Rochester story, Jane POV) and Austen (Darcy story, Lizzie POV)? IMO, the problem aren't Rey and Kylo parts or only Rey or only Kylo ones, but that the movie has too many characters who dilute the "voice" of the movie. Just too many POVs.
@vaderito

I personally agree with this. There was so much going on in this movie and it kept going back and forth between the plots. I felt a little overwhelmed by it after my first viewing. And what scenes am I interested in discussing afterward? Pretty much only Rey/Kylo/Luke scenes.

I guess Kylo feels like the main to me because he’s the one connected to the OT trio. Yes, Rey comes along and interacts with them too, but she’s not the one with the history. In fact, her background story has been left incredibly vague so far. I can’t quite figure her out. Her actions in TLJ surprised and then kind of upset me Neutral
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Post by ZioRen on Tue 26 Dec - 1:27

I agree that the number and timing of cuts continues to annoy me with this movie. Sometimes they cut into scenes they should have let play out in their whole, and it's irritating and makes everything feel choppy and short. I still think the Rey and Kylo development, as much as I liked it, should have been played out longer and over more scenes. 

Personally, I can see why some people may have come out with the impression that "Reylo" was just an impulsive mistake Rey made and that it's over now. We know better because we pore over scenes and are heavily invested in Kylo and his viewpoint on the story, but not everybody looks that hard. I think the general thoughts toward Kylo as a character in TFA versus how we saw him illustrates that (and we were the ones who were correct, so I'm not too worried there).

And I also agree that Rey as a character still hasn't hit her stride in my opinion. Something about her confuses me, like something key to letting me connect or get invested in her fully is just within reach but keeps falling back and out of it. I hope IX finally gets her to really "pop" for me.
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Post by FrolickingFizzgig on Tue 26 Dec - 1:38

@ZioRen wrote:I agree that the number and timing of cuts continues to annoy me with this movie. Sometimes they cut into scenes they should have let play out in their whole, and it's irritating and makes everything feel choppy and short. I still think the Rey and Kylo development, as much as I liked it, should have been played out longer and over more scenes. 

Personally, I can see why some people may have come out with the impression that "Reylo" was just an impulsive mistake Rey made and that it's over now. We know better because we pore over scenes and are heavily invested in Kylo and his viewpoint on the story, but not everybody looks that hard. I think the general thoughts toward Kylo as a character in TFA versus how we saw him illustrates that (and we were the ones who were correct, so I'm not too worried there).

And I also agree that Rey as a character still hasn't hit her stride in my opinion. Something about her confuses me, like something key to letting me connect or get invested in her fully is just within reach but keeps falling back and out of it. I hope IX finally gets her to really "pop" for me.
@ZioRen
90% of the GA came out of TFA thinking Rey was Luke's daughter. Did that make her Luke's daughter? No. What the GA/antis interpret or believe is irrelevant to the story going forward. JJ was executive producer on TLJ and okayed everything. He loved Rian's story direction and will be creating a conclusion to that story, not the GA/anti story. Listening is the most important thing and obviously we did something right because while others have spent the past two weeks crying about their destroyed headcanons, we've been able to enjoy the film for what it is rather than what we wish it was.

I personally love the film so much and could go on about why for days, but I understand that not everybody is going to feel the same way. I just wouldn't give GA opinions too much thought because they aren't in this to think, they're really in it for a good time. For example my PHD professor grandparents who thought TLJ was a sequel to Rogue One until I told them two days later that it wasn't. Laughing
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Post by ZioRen on Tue 26 Dec - 1:47

I know. I just said in that post that the GA thoughts don't always match with ours, but that's nothing new and we were right before and probably will be again. I still think the Rey and Kylo relationship in TLJ could have used more time and slow burn, and I can easily see why many folks wouldn't come out with the same Reylo impression many of us did because of it. 

On the flip side, many more GA members and most critics came out seeing Reylo as romantic without a doubt. That's so much more than I'd ever hoped for TLJ!
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Post by FrolickingFizzgig on Tue 26 Dec - 1:49

@ZioRen wrote:I know, I just said in that post that the GA thoughts don't match with ours but that's nothing new and we were right before and probably will be again. I still think the Rey and Kylo relationship in TLJ could have used more time and slow burn, and I can easily see why many folks wouldn't come out with the same Reylo impression many of us did because of it.
@ZioRen
I guess, but I honestly love the movie as a SW film, not as a Reylo film. Obviously it's both, but I needed all the other SWsy bits too, even the Poe stuff. I truly enjoy every part of this movie, all the characters, scenes, development, everything. It's amazing (IMO, of course). I say that because I theorized about it for two years and it still came out exceeding my expectations in many departments.
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Post by Saracene on Tue 26 Dec - 2:11

@Cowgirlsamurai wrote:I keep asking myself if Kylo is the focus of this trilogy and they just made the POV character a girl for the feminine gaze aspect. Rey’s character is kind of vague and unpredictable to me, especially after TLJ.
@Cowgirlsamurai

I think that both Kylo and Rey are the focus of the trilogy, the big difference is that they're taking risks with Kylo that they never do with Rey, and both films end in a way that leave Rey somewhat opaque. Like, after TFA ended we had to wait two years to find out what Rey's motivations for going to Anch-To at the end of TFA were - she only articulates them in her conversation with Luke in TLJ. Now in TLJ we see Rey go through all sorts of heartbreaking stuff, but again we'll probably have to wait two years to find out how it all affected her, because she doesn't talk about it. It will hopefully all fit together once the trilogy is done, but going from film to film, this is just not a satisfying way to develop a character. If we never get any sense of what the throne room revelations cost Rey and how she managed to come through, how is it possible to truly connect with her? If the film wasn't so intent on obscuring her emotions, Rey would probably have had her own equivalent of Luke's talk-to-the-wise-elder - most likely Leia - and would get some advice and guidance on how to cope as well as letting her feelings out.

As for the other characters, unfortunately in this day and age we're never getting another ESB where *gasp shock* no major space battles happen after the opening sequence. Since Rey and Kylo aren't going to be involved in these, there have to be other characters who carry the big action sequences. Just how it is sadly. At least I do enjoy the Resistance stuff in TLJ for the most part and the action is way more visually interesting than your usual blockbuster fare.
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Post by Cowgirlsamurai on Tue 26 Dec - 2:48

@Saracene

The space battles are great (the poor Resistance, tho Sad ) I just don’t feel the need to analyze them too much. Same with Finn/Rose or Poe/Holdo’s scenes except in regards to the overall themes of the film.

There had better be a Rey/Ben kiss in 9, because the number of people who think that Kylo’s only interested in Rey for her power is blowing my mind, lol (including, I just found out, my own husband, the traitor Razz)

I’m pretty sad about all the Rey/Leia scenes we’re not going to see now Sad I wish they had talked about Ben at the end of TLJ, but at least Rey’s holding the broken saber and sounding forlorn in that moment.
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Post by IoJovi on Tue 26 Dec - 2:55

@Cowgirlsamurai wrote:@Saracene

The space battles are great (the poor Resistance, tho Sad ) I just don’t feel the need to analyze them too much. Same with Finn/Rose or Poe/Holdo’s scenes except in regards to the overall themes of the film.

There had better be a Rey/Ben kiss in 9, because the number of people who think that Kylo’s only interested in Rey for her power is blowing my mind, lol (including, I just found out, my own husband, the traitor Razz)

I’m pretty sad about all the Rey/Leia scenes we’re not going to see now Sad I wish they had talked about Ben at the end of TLJ, but at least Rey’s holding the broken saber and sounding forlorn in that moment.
@Cowgirlsamurai

Pretty much everyone I’ve talked to saw the clear attraction between Ben and Rey.  The problem I am running into lies in almost everyone I’ve talked to in the GA minus one thinks Ben will die in the redemption process.  Aside from reminding them again he’s NOT Vader, I point out that if that happens, Han’s death is meaningless, the romantic implications between Ben and Rey that they clearly acknowledge is pointless, and Rey is not going to get the belonging and future family she craves.  To which they’ll say well what’s wrong if she finds it with someone else?  Well that’s all fine and dandy if this were real life, and not a sweepingly epic story where Rey’s love interest is the one remaining Skywalker descendant.

I feel like we are back to square one two years ago where folks STILL don’t understand character development and story progression, and the glaring fact this is only the second movie.


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Post by Saracene on Tue 26 Dec - 2:56

@Cowgirlsamurai wrote:There had better be a Rey/Ben kiss in 9, because the number of people who think that Kylo’s only interested in Rey for her power is blowing my mind, lol (including, I just found out, my own husband, the traitor Razz)
@Cowgirlsamurai

While on the other hand, you have people insist with vehemence that Rey only wanted to redeem Kylo because he'd help them win the war. No personal interest involved whatsoever Rolling Eyes

Some people just have a very set view of Kylo and don't think he's capable of any genuine feelings. I guess he should have given a "you are in my very soul, tormenting me" soliloquy.
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Post by FrolickingFizzgig on Tue 26 Dec - 3:09

@Saracene wrote:
@Cowgirlsamurai wrote:There had better be a Rey/Ben kiss in 9, because the number of people who think that Kylo’s only interested in Rey for her power is blowing my mind, lol (including, I just found out, my own husband, the traitor Razz)
@Cowgirlsamurai

While on the other hand, you have people insist with vehemence that Rey only wanted to redeem Kylo because he'd help them win the war. No personal interest involved whatsoever Rolling Eyes

Some people just have a very set view of Kylo and don't think he's capable of any genuine feelings. I guess he should have given a "you are in my very soul, tormenting me" soliloquy.
@Saracene
The good thing is we actually listened to Rian. His intentions were clear, IMO. Dual protagonists and the audience sympathizing as much with Kylo as they do Rey -- that was his goal. It won't succeed for everybody, but the story isn't over yet and most don't think about these things even 1/10th as much as we do. Ultimately the narrative has been created to go in a certain direction whether they see it or not. It's going to happen anyway, just as TLJ happened. LF/Disney aren't in this to cater to old-school fans. They're making what they want to make.

A lot of people don't understand that the filmmakers have a much more sympathetic view of Kylo/Ben than they do. Fans can't help but project their own opinions about a story they didn't write and characters they didn't create onto the future of the saga without taking into account the filmmakers actual intentions, no matter how obvious they're made in the actual text. This is not limited to SW, either.
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Post by Cowgirlsamurai on Tue 26 Dec - 3:09

@IoJovi @Saracene

I think most of us knew that without a kiss, many people would still deny the romantic tension between these two. But judging by what we got, which is more than many of us had realistically expected, it’s still boggling my mind. My best friend finally went to see it Friday and immediately started blowing up my phone with “REY AND KYLO!!! I LOVE THEM!” messages, haha.

I’ve actually seen a lot of comments on Reylo account posts on IG saying that interpreting Kylo as a romantic character would be “ruining him” and that Reylos are the cancer of the fandom. Suspect Wow, that is extreme, and deeply rooted in denialsville.
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Post by IoJovi on Tue 26 Dec - 3:17

I also just remembered that a large percentage of the reason Colin Trevorrow was hired to direct IX was because of his film Safety Not Guarenteed.   Now we all know CT has been fired, but for anyone who has seen this movie, it deals with a very unconventional romance that has a lot of similarities to Reylo.  I saw the film a few months ago, and while I know we all had our concerns about Colin, I really loved the movie.  

It deals with a loner who seems to be either crazy or schizophrenic, and a seemingly normal girl who finds a kindred soul in him.  The end result is they end up falling in love and going on their own adventure in the end.   I realize this isn’t something the GA is going to do a deep dive on, but the fact remains Colin was hired because of this film, and the parallels can’t be denied.

@CowgirlSamurai I’m of the mind now that if people don’t want to see the romantic attraction, let them. Even without the in your face sexual tension, we have confirmation from Rian, Mark, Daisy, and Adam on multiple occasions that it’s clearly there. If I had to gauge a percentage, I’d say 90 to 95% of the GA picked up on it. If we have some stragglers, that’s their loss. Smile
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Post by Saracene on Tue 26 Dec - 3:29

@Cowgirlsamurai wrote:@IoJovi @Saracene

I think most of us knew that without a kiss, many people would still deny the romantic tension between these two. But judging by what we got, which is more than many of us had realistically expected, it’s still boggling my mind. My best friend finally went to see it Friday and immediately started blowing up my phone with “REY AND KYLO!!! I LOVE THEM!” messages, haha.
@Cowgirlsamurai

Oh it definitely blew my mind alright Very Happy I remember saying months ago that you couldn't think of a more perfect place to develop an unlikely romance than an island in a middle of nowhere. I reigned in my expectations after the RomanceGate, but I just couldn't imagine what a clever clever device Force Skype turned out to be. It made it possible to fast track the dynamic in a believable way, and brush aside the difficulties of any scenario where Kylo was physically present on Anch-To. So in a short time, Rey saw Kylo topless and held hands with him and called him Ben. Like, wooooaaaah Shocked bounce

I'm pretty certain now that the writers will come up with yet another force-related device (or a shift in their existing connection) to move the Kylo/Rey dynamic forward in a way most people wouldn't expect.
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Post by IoJovi on Tue 26 Dec - 3:44

@Saracene wrote:
@Cowgirlsamurai wrote:@IoJovi @Saracene

I think most of us knew that without a kiss, many people would still deny the romantic tension between these two. But judging by what we got, which is more than many of us had realistically expected, it’s still boggling my mind. My best friend finally went to see it Friday and immediately started blowing up my phone with “REY AND KYLO!!! I LOVE THEM!” messages, haha.
@Cowgirlsamurai

Oh it definitely blew my mind alright Very Happy I remember saying months ago that you couldn't think of a more perfect place to develop an unlikely romance than an island in a middle of nowhere. I reigned in my expectations after the RomanceGate, but I just couldn't imagine what a clever clever device Force Skype turned out to be. It made it possible to fast track the dynamic in a believable way, and brush aside the difficulties of any scenario where Kylo was physically present on Anch-To. So in a short time, Rey saw Kylo topless and held hands with him and called him Ben. Like, wooooaaaah Shocked bounce

I'm pretty certain now that the writers will come up with yet another force-related device (or a shift in their existing connection) to move the Kylo/Rey dynamic forward in a way most people wouldn't expect.
@Saracene

Keep in mind the Force bond still exists, making it just that easy to move their relationship forward. Given that, I think it’d be fairly easy to resolve TLJ’s Renperor cliffhanger in a believable and meaningful way.

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Post by rey09 on Tue 26 Dec - 4:14

[quote="IoJovi"][quote="Cowgirlsamurai"]

Pretty much everyone I’ve talked to saw the clear attraction between Ben and Rey.  The problem I am running into lies in almost everyone I’ve talked to in the GA minus one thinks Ben will die in the redemption process.  Aside from reminding them again he’s NOT Vader, I point out that if that happens, Han’s death is meaningless, the romantic implications between Ben and Rey that they clearly acknowledge is pointless, and Rey is not going to get the belonging and future family she craves.  To which they’ll say well what’s wrong if she finds it with someone else?  Well that’s all fine and dandy if this were real life, and not a sweepingly epic story where Rey’s love interest is the one remaining Skywalker descendant.

@IoJovi They are bonded BY THE FORCE. Their souls are literally linked by their cosmic god-being. Like...how is that not enough for people?? I can't help but think people are just not very in tune with the more emotional and mystical elements of love.

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Post by SheLitAFire on Tue 26 Dec - 4:16

Romantic Reylo AKA the Who's Your Daddy Thread - Page 4 Reylo112
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Post by Saracene on Tue 26 Dec - 4:22

I've re-watched Bridget Jones' Diary on the weekend and chuckled at the parallels between Reylo and Bridget's relationship with Mark Darcy, which of course itself borrows a lot from Pride & Prejudice. If you simplify it to the barest essentials, the romance hits pretty much the same main points.

Y'all have been watching a chick flick in spaaaaace Laughing Laughing
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Post by Lily Snape on Tue 26 Dec - 5:08

@Cowgirlsamurai wrote:@IoJovi @Saracene

I think most of us knew that without a kiss, many people would still deny the romantic tension between these two. But judging by what we got, which is more than many of us had realistically expected, it’s still boggling my mind. My best friend finally went to see it Friday and immediately started blowing up my phone with “REY AND KYLO!!! I LOVE THEM!” messages, haha.

I’ve actually seen a lot of comments on Reylo account posts on IG saying that interpreting Kylo as a romantic character would be “ruining him” and that Reylos are the cancer of the fandom. Suspect Wow, that is extreme, and deeply rooted in denialsville.
@Cowgirlsamurai

At first I thought, "I wish they had included a kiss so that it was clear," but then I realized that kiss or no kiss, there's an element of the fandom who will find a way to explain away everything.  If Rey and Kylo had kissed, that would have been interpreted as Kylo weaponizing his attractiveness and sex appeal and taking advantage of her loneliness to lure Rey to the Dark side.  The filmmakers have to leave some things for people to debate and ponder, and this film has a cliffhanger of relationships and emotions, but we know that Rey and Kylo will have an amazing, epic romance, and we will have had four ! years enjoying it.   Smile
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Post by ISeeAnIsland on Tue 26 Dec - 5:09

@IoJovi wrote:I also just remembered that a large percentage of the reason Colin Trevorrow was hired to direct IX was because of his film Safety Not Guarenteed.   Now we all know CT has been fired, but for anyone who has seen this movie, it deals with a very unconventional romance that has a lot of similarities to Reylo.  I saw the film a few months ago, and while I know we all had our concerns about Colin, I really loved the movie.  

It deals with a loner who seems to be either crazy or schizophrenic, and a seemingly normal girl who finds a kindred soul in him.  The end result is they end up falling in love and going on their own adventure in the end.   I realize this isn’t something the GA is going to do a deep dive on, but the fact remains Colin was hired because of this film, and the parallels can’t be denied.

@CowgirlSamurai I’m of the mind now that if people don’t want to see the romantic attraction, let them. Even without the in your face sexual tension, we have confirmation from Rian, Mark, Daisy, and Adam on multiple occasions that it’s clearly there. If I had to gauge a percentage, I’d say 90 to 95% of the GA picked up on it. If we have some stragglers, that’s their loss. Smile
@IoJovi

Stragglers? Like Brez? Rolling Eyes
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Romantic Reylo AKA the Who's Your Daddy Thread - Page 4 Empty Re: Romantic Reylo AKA the Who's Your Daddy Thread

Post by IoJovi on Tue 26 Dec - 5:15

@ISeeAnIsland wrote:
@IoJovi wrote:I also just remembered that a large percentage of the reason Colin Trevorrow was hired to direct IX was because of his film Safety Not Guarenteed.   Now we all know CT has been fired, but for anyone who has seen this movie, it deals with a very unconventional romance that has a lot of similarities to Reylo.  I saw the film a few months ago, and while I know we all had our concerns about Colin, I really loved the movie.  

It deals with a loner who seems to be either crazy or schizophrenic, and a seemingly normal girl who finds a kindred soul in him.  The end result is they end up falling in love and going on their own adventure in the end.   I realize this isn’t something the GA is going to do a deep dive on, but the fact remains Colin was hired because of this film, and the parallels can’t be denied.

@CowgirlSamurai I’m of the mind now that if people don’t want to see the romantic attraction, let them. Even without the in your face sexual tension, we have confirmation from Rian, Mark, Daisy, and Adam on multiple occasions that it’s clearly there. If I had to gauge a percentage, I’d say 90 to 95% of the GA picked up on it. If we have some stragglers, that’s their loss. Smile
@IoJovi

Stragglers? Like Brez? Rolling Eyes
@ISeeAnIsland

Looking back, I think Brez was completely pandering to that anti. If you reread the article from EW in November, there’s no way he didn’t understand there was overt sexual tension between Rey and Kylo. Personally I think his response to the ant was a meet me half way kind of thing, trying to get them to agree by taking the romance aspect out of it. Personally I wish he wouldn’t give them air time, but I think I get what he’s trying to accomplish nonetheless.
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Post by Saracene on Tue 26 Dec - 5:43

@Lily Snape wrote:
@Cowgirlsamurai wrote:@IoJovi @Saracene

I think most of us knew that without a kiss, many people would still deny the romantic tension between these two. But judging by what we got, which is more than many of us had realistically expected, it’s still boggling my mind. My best friend finally went to see it Friday and immediately started blowing up my phone with “REY AND KYLO!!! I LOVE THEM!” messages, haha.

I’ve actually seen a lot of comments on Reylo account posts on IG saying that interpreting Kylo as a romantic character would be “ruining him” and that Reylos are the cancer of the fandom. Suspect Wow, that is extreme, and deeply rooted in denialsville.
@Cowgirlsamurai

At first I thought, "I wish they had included a kiss so that it was clear," but then I realized that kiss or no kiss, there's an element of the fandom who will find a way to explain away everything.  If Rey and Kylo had kissed, that would have been interpreted as Kylo weaponizing his attractiveness and sex appeal and taking advantage of her loneliness to lure Rey to the Dark side.  The filmmakers have to leave some things for people to debate and ponder, and this film has a cliffhanger of relationships and emotions, but we know that Rey and Kylo will have an amazing, epic romance, and we will have had four ! years enjoying it.   Smile
@Lily Snape

I think that if a Reylo kiss happens in this series it makes sense for it to happen after Kylo does something 100% selfless that leaves no room whatsoever for any doubts regarding his intentions. I mean, technically he does save Rey's life in TLJ, but I genuinely can't make out at what point he decided to kill Snoke - when he sees Rey in her Snow White coffin? When Snoke explains how he created the connection? In any case there's a degree of calculation and planning involved that makes it different to Vader saving Luke in RotJ, which really was a pure selfless act done with no regard for one's own well-being.
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Post by snufkin on Tue 26 Dec - 6:30

I miss that Parks and Recreation wrapped up before the ST landed given that jokes about the PT and anticipating the ST were a big part of its humor. And you know that Donna would have comments to this effect about where she thinks Rey's relationship with Ben should go





As for the coverage by Breznican et all, at the end of the day they're super motivated fans who are an in for LF to the fan community. Which these days is both a locked in market and also another vehicle for marketing. That doesn't mean that they have any greater insight or analysis than other fans. In fact, as fans they have certain things they love and biases which come to the table. Breznican put how much time into promoting that Rey was Obi-Wan's descendant and then tells his Twitter followers that they need to chill out over the movie killing theories they made up in their minds? Or even though I mostly enjoy Joanna Robinson's writings, she's going on about how Ben's going to die and Rey will date Poe because of some anime series (I know it's one a bunch of ya'll love). Which is where I'm like, "a lot of your writing is great, but you're talking about this not as a journalist or somebody with insight into narrative/characters but on your likes/preferences as a fan." The line between what's entertainment journalism/film criticism and what's fandom gets really thin in these situations. Especially with pubs like Entertainment Weekly and Vanity Fair who do not have the same type of honest coverage (meaning actually direct and not PR mediated blow jobs) that Rolling Stone had with LF back in the OT era. And I don't think anybody here is the type of engage in magical thinking, denial, or cherry picking to support the scenarios you want to see in the story. A lot of us weren't surprised by what we saw in this movie as a result of months of thinking about it, watching the film, listening to the collateral interviews and supporting DVD release materials from the filmmakers, and even then more in-depth discussion. Meaning none of what we've thought about on this topic, which it turned out was a story Rian Johnson wrote back in 2014 long before any of use saw the previous movie, is the result of a snap judgment. I still don't take anything for granted, but I also know which people tend to have sensible and thoughtful takes on the ST. Which is this forum and critics like Priscilla Page.
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Post by snufkin on Tue 26 Dec - 6:46

As for Kylo's whole gambit in the Throne Room, boy's impulsive and I'd say the vision + Rey showing up in the Snow White/Cathy Earnshaw coffin (with calligraphy from his father on it no less) made him start thinking he had an opportunity to get out from under Snoke while having the future with Rey to fulfill the thwarted family ambitions to rule the galaxy. That part was 100% calculating and about what he wanted. But the rest of it, once Snoke started monologuing about how it turned out that the Lightsider he was training him to kill was Rey and toying/torturing her, that was straight up coming to her defense and protecting her. Of course, he thought that his whole 'rule the galaxy' plan was a go because he'd have her as backup. But like money, STDs, contraception, or children, the "how would you feel about ruling the galaxy together as powerful overlords?" is probably a conversation you need to have up front in a relationship so that there is no confusion or miscommunications. And his whole "you're trash but all that matters is that I'm Darth Vader's descendent and totally into you" speech? Dude blew it worse than if he'd called her a scruffy looking nerf herder and has nobody but himself to blame for getting dumped. Also part of that offer to her? That was like the 60 portions of offering her something critical to her, food or love/companionship, where she had to turn it down because it would've violated her moral code. Like that offer was just painful for her because the companionship part of what he was offering her something she's hungry for (and the person she's hungry for), but taking it would've been as much a compromise as selling BB-8 would've been.
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