Romantic Reylo AKA the Who's Your Daddy Thread

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Post by rawpowah on Sun 14 Jan 2018, 7:49 am

I can't wait for Rian's dvd commentary so he can continue to wax poetically about how shredded Adam is. Laughing
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Post by Night Huntress on Sun 14 Jan 2018, 8:13 am

@twilekempire wrote:

The most fascinating thing is that Ben himself is not bothered at all by it! There are supposedly "heroic" men in other films who would throw a hissy fit if a woman physically bested them, who would be aggressive and resentful about it. He's not; they fought and he lost and he can not only accept that but admire and be fascinated by her. There are "heroic" male characters in other films who too would behave toward Rey with sexual entitlement once their relationship changed and became more intimate and, again, it's not even a consideration in his mind.

Before TLJ were released many speculated Kylo would be angry and would seek revenge because Rey bested him and sliced his face... he never even mentioned it- she insults him, shots at him during their Force-Skype session and he is just like "oh, that's cool- how does it work?" Confus

@twilekempire wrote:
This is why I think that, though there are archetypal elements of the romance, it's an archetypal romance that's really not being written to promote harmful gender stereotypes at all. Quite the contrary! Not only is Rey not written in sexist ways, but Ben isn't being written as a man with an attachment to gender hierarchy. He has plenty of problems, but that isn't one of them.

Yes, I agree!!!  And that's why all those accusations Reylo would promote abusive relationships is just ridiculous.

He doesn't see her as beneath him- not even during his horrible Darth Darcy proposal.
They are equals in every aspect - none is better, wiser or more powerful.

It's interesting through- considering that Kylo Ren is basically a narcissistic snob...I think it could have something to do with the fact his mother was always a strong and powerful person he looked up to- and even if their relationship is broken he respects and deeply cares for her.
I mean he couldn't bring himself to pull that trigger.

@twilekempire wrote:
In my opinion, the deep spelunking people do looking for manipulation is an expression of how convinced they are that a man *must* resent a woman for being his true equal, must want to control and diminish her rather than be her partner, and if he doesn't show those feelings outwardly it's only because he's got a devious plan up his sleeve or something... Meanwhile, I am sitting in the movie theater, happy as a clam for the way they're being written! lol.
@twilekempire

yeah, they're the true misogynists - not a fictional relationship in a movie... Rolling Eyes
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Post by Irina de France on Sun 14 Jan 2018, 8:40 am

To be honest, when it comes to fans asking questions to the story group on Twitter... I don't see why the fandom *must* be collectively embarassed about it. Heck, every time a Reylo shipper did something questionable/stupid, people would be all over the place. And there was that time someone asked a, let's admit it, stupid question to MM and some BNF I will not name basically came out and noisily said they were leaving the fandom. For the love of God, I get it you're scared that antis will use that as ammo against you, but look at the bigger picture. First off, no matter how famous you are in the fandom, ultimately, you're not responsible for anyone's behavior. Second, outside of the SW fandom... let's say this fandom has a pretty bad rap, APART from the Reylo fandom. I've met more than one person who was pretty much just an observer thought the Reylo fandom was the most well-behaved faction, by far.

And come on, there are worst things than asking the story group questions on Twitter. Like, I don't know, leaving hateful comments on a Finnrose fanart John Boyega left on his Instagram.
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Post by twilekempire on Sun 14 Jan 2018, 8:44 am

@Night Huntress wrote:
@twilekempire wrote:

The most fascinating thing is that Ben himself is not bothered at all by it! There are supposedly "heroic" men in other films who would throw a hissy fit if a woman physically bested them, who would be aggressive and resentful about it. He's not; they fought and he lost and he can not only accept that but admire and be fascinated by her. There are "heroic" male characters in other films who too would behave toward Rey with sexual entitlement once their relationship changed and became more intimate and, again, it's not even a consideration in his mind.

Before TLJ were released many speculated Kylo would be angry and would seek revenge because Rey bested him and sliced his face... he never even mentioned it- she insults him, shots at him during their Force-Skype session and he is just like "oh, that's cool- how does it work?" Confus

I didn't know that. I'm so glad we didn't get that! It would have been very different for me, and less of a fantasy... the way he's written makes him easier for me to both identify with and desire. There's not any obligatory sexist gunk getting in the way. His issues are many and deep, but they're not gender based or exclusionary, which means sympathizing is easier. And it means that the conflict between them, over how they deal with their relationship and integrating their trauma and "growing up," can purely be about *those themes*. And Rey's "failure" can be about who she is as a person rather than her gender. It was really smart of Rian Johnson to handle it that way.

@twilekempire wrote:
This is why I think that, though there are archetypal elements of the romance, it's an archetypal romance that's really not being written to promote harmful gender stereotypes at all. Quite the contrary! Not only is Rey not written in sexist ways, but Ben isn't being written as a man with an attachment to gender hierarchy. He has plenty of problems, but that isn't one of them.

Yes, I agree!!!  And that's why all those accusations Reylo would promote abusive relationships is just ridiculous.

He doesn't see her as beneath him- not even during his horrible Darth Darcy proposal.
They are equals in every aspect - none is better, wiser or more powerful.

It's interesting through- considering that Kylo Ren is basically a narcissistic snob...I think it could have something to do with the fact his mother was always a strong and powerful person he looked up to- and even if their relationship is broken he respects and deeply cares for her.
I mean he couldn't bring himself to pull that trigger.
@Night Huntress

Yes, how could anyone grow up with Leia and not learn a thing or two about how impressive women can be? lol He does have experience working with women like Phasma as well, who are clearly the equals of their male colleagues... I doubt that he considers gender hierarchy very important, compared to someone's actual skills and capacities, overall. A hierarchy of skills and position and class probably is most important to him; perhaps the one outweighing any consideration of the other.

And, beyond that, personally I've been thinking of him as someone who is *such* a believer in the force and such an elitist about force powers that all other hierarchical considerations can be cancelled out, even his class snobbery. The force has chosen Rey, it's connected them, it clearly has an entwined destiny for them, and that's all that he needs to know. Even though he's enough of a snob to have his Darcy moment about her unfortunate origins... that's as much about him addressing her own fears and how their abandonment issues are similar as being classist. At the end of the day, Rey is more gifted and important than any princess or queen the force hasn't chosen. If the force thinks she's his equal, then clearly she is, and how can it possibly be an insult for the force to raise up someone so amazing to parallel his own power?

If anything, it's a kind of compliment. Her amazingness is linked to his amazingness, even when she's kicking his butt lol. And it means he doesn't have to be a lonely freak anymore, very proud of himself but feeling utterly alone and set apart by his force gifts too.

I make sense of his calm in the force bond by thinking about his religious belief in it as well. He takes pleasure in its mysterious workings and knows how rare and special this is and that it must be going somewhere interesting. This is particularly significant since Snoke was very brutal with him and made him despair of there being anything he can do to really succeed? He was experiencing a major blow to his already fragile self-worth. He's at a low point, and then the force bond happens and this sign of destiny touches him. And he's pleased as punch that the force has decided to connect him with the fascinating, pretty girl he's been longing to get to know better!


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Post by Ynqve on Sun 14 Jan 2018, 8:54 am

Honestly, most of the times when I see someone claiming that Reylo is sexist and misogynistic the person who says it tend to sound sexist themselves. Not only do they misrepresent Kylo's actions and motives, they almost always conveniently "forget" or disregard Rey's decisions and agency.

There are some aspects in Reylo that could have been problematic but they aren't because Rey isn't a lovesick doormat who accepts everything Kylo does. She challenges him, she escapes from him and she's always the one who makes the first move when they fight. The idea that Reylo is sexist or abusive to women is completely ridiculous.
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Post by twilekempire on Sun 14 Jan 2018, 9:04 am

@Ynqve wrote:Honestly, most of the times when I see someone claiming that Reylo is sexist and misogynistic the person who says it tend to sound sexist themselves. Not only do they misrepresent Kylo's actions and motives, they almost always conveniently "forget" or disregard Rey's decisions and agency.

There are some aspects in Reylo that could have been problematic but they aren't because Rey isn't a lovesick doormat who accepts everything Kylo does. She challenges him, she escapes from him and she's always the one who makes the first move when they fight. The idea that Reylo is sexist or abusive to women is completely ridiculous.
@Ynqve

Totally! And he's written as fascinatingly messed up in all kinds of ways *except* sexism. It's really refreshing. I hope my bringing up the arguments against didn't disguise my larger admiration for the writing. I think about it so much because it's just so strange how out of left-field the hot takes are.

Looking at the actual relationship as it appears in the films I'm seeing an example of how an m/f relationship can be written with complicated, painful issues without ever going for the "easy" sexist conflict. Like, for example, not having Ben resent her besting him in TFA. It's very carefully handled and I admire that they're able to take big, classic archetypes and remix them in such a way where they do justice to the mythic power of them by not having petty crap get in the way. They're paralleled and contrasted in so many more interesting ways than gender hierarchy! Both mythic and psychological: they're more defined by their respective traumatic childhoods and their very different reactions to that than by gender stereotypes, and I LOVE that.
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Post by Ynqve on Sun 14 Jan 2018, 9:36 am

@twilekempire wrote:
@Ynqve wrote:Honestly, most of the times when I see someone claiming that Reylo is sexist and misogynistic the person who says it tend to sound sexist themselves. Not only do they misrepresent Kylo's actions and motives, they almost always conveniently "forget" or disregard Rey's decisions and agency.

There are some aspects in Reylo that could have been problematic but they aren't because Rey isn't a lovesick doormat who accepts everything Kylo does. She challenges him, she escapes from him and she's always the one who makes the first move when they fight. The idea that Reylo is sexist or abusive to women is completely ridiculous.
@Ynqve

Totally! And he's written as fascinatingly messed up in all kinds of ways *except* sexism. It's really refreshing. I hope my bringing up the arguments against didn't disguise my larger admiration for the writing. I think about it so much because it's just so strange how out of left-field the hot takes are.

Looking at the actual relationship as it appears in the films I'm seeing an example of how an m/f relationship can be written with complicated, painful issues without ever going for the "easy" sexist conflict. Like, for example, not having Ben resent her besting him in TFA. It's very carefully handled and I admire that they're able to take big, classic archetypes and remix them in such a way where they do justice to the mythic power of them by not having petty crap get in the way. They're paralleled and contrasted in so many more interesting ways than gender hierarchy! Both mythic and psychological: they're more defined by their respective traumatic childhoods and their very different reactions to that than by gender stereotypes, and I LOVE that.
@twilekempire

Well said! It would have been so easy for them to write Kylo as a whiny, sexist pig who's pissed because he got beaten by a girl. But even when Snoke tries to shame him for it he still doesn't take it out on her. He accepts that she's powerful and he's not threatened by her power. It's amazing!

Reylo has so many layers and it's such a refreshing take on classic romance tropes. There's no doubt in my mind that regardless of how IX ends, they're going to be remembered as one of the most iconic fictional pairings. There's a reason why the Reylo scenes have been so well received even by people who disliked TLJ overall.
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Post by Night Huntress on Sun 14 Jan 2018, 10:23 am

@twilekempire wrote:
@Night Huntress

Yes, how could anyone grow up with Leia and not learn a thing or two about how impressive women can be? lol He does have experience working with women like Phasma as well, who are clearly the equals of their male colleagues... I doubt that he considers gender hierarchy very important, compared to someone's actual skills and capacities, overall. A hierarchy of skills and position and class probably is most important to him; perhaps the one outweighing any consideration of the other.

And, beyond that, personally I've been thinking of him as someone who is *such* a believer in the force and such an elitist about force powers that all other hierarchical considerations can be cancelled out, even his class snobbery. The force has chosen Rey, it's connected them, it clearly has an entwined destiny for them, and that's all that he needs to know. Even though he's enough of a snob to have his Darcy moment about her unfortunate origins... that's as much about him addressing her own fears and how their abandonment issues are similar as being classist. At the end of the day, Rey is more gifted and important than any princess or queen the force hasn't chosen. If the force thinks she's his equal, then clearly she is, and how can it possibly be an insult for the force to raise up someone so amazing to parallel his own power?

If anything, it's a kind of compliment. Her amazingness is linked to his amazingness, even when she's kicking his butt lol. And it means he doesn't have to be a lonely freak anymore, very proud of himself but feeling utterly alone and set apart by his force gifts too.

I make sense of his calm in the force bond by thinking about his religious belief in it as well. He takes pleasure in its mysterious workings and knows how rare and special this is and that it must be going somewhere interesting. This is particularly significant since Snoke was very brutal with him and made him despair of there being anything he can do to really succeed? He was experiencing a major blow to his already fragile self-worth. He's at a low point, and then the force bond happens and this sign of destiny touches him. And he's pleased as punch that the force has decided to connect him with the fascinating, pretty girl he's been longing to get to know better!
@twilekempire

Exactly - he is a force elitist! He comes across snobby at first. In the interrogation scene in TFA he says "...and somehow you convinced the droid to show it to you- you a scavenger..:" but as you said- skills and capacities are more important to him and the force choose her. She is his equal and everything else is insignificant. I think that's what he intended to say with his awful proposal...No

I think he won't be angry at her in IX either. He will be sad, miserable and disappointed... but hunt her down and destroy her? I don't think so! Razz
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Post by snufkin on Sun 14 Jan 2018, 11:41 am

I got other things to do this morning, but this is a great discussion. And a couple points that probably have to do with how this story turned out:

1. People seem to gloss over the fact that LF and the Story Group is predominantly female led/executives. Sure the most high profile social media employees are fanboys. And don't get me started again about how that role used to be occupied by a woman who got laid off prior to the Disney purchase). But anyways, while they missed the opportunity to have one of the ST films be written/directed by women (and you'd suspect that JJ was lobbying hard for Ava Duvernay to write/direct IX, but they went for Trevorrow based on JW BO and hired her for A Wrinkle in Time instead), it's ridiculous how much vocal fans overlook the simple truth that this franchise was created/managed by women.

2. A lot of the discussion where fans assume certain things about their relationship and his character are driven by the larger reckoning/come to Jesus moment happening in the Entertainment Industry and our society about misogyny. Which to the above point, the head of this entire enterprise is one of the people leading Time's Up, Kathleen Kennedy. So they're more than aware, especially given the # of women at this company who are more than familiar with how women have been treated in the entertainment industry, of what's typical for female roles and relationships in films. Which is why we're seeing what we're seeing - a subversion of those type of roles and relationships and an example of how to do it right. It's far ahead of the curve of what's happening in the rest of the industry, which is finally having all of its dirty secrets and assumptions being forced out into the open and discussed.

3. One thing which our corner recognized and has discussed, but which most of typical fandom just doesn't have the experience/skillset to recognize is the Motherf**king Female Gaze. Which again, women are in charge of this trilogy and it's there big time. Hence taking off the mask for Rey and showing off his 8 pack. Fanboys (and fangirls whose life experience is trying to get into the clubhouse) are either uncomfortable or can't process it because it doesn't center them and their gaze/perspective/pleasure at the center of the narrative. For those of you familiar with psychoanalysis discussions around Hitchcock's films, it's the good 'ol scopophilia.

4. Also something a lot of vocal fans and film critics (who typically graduated to that role from being fanboys) overlook is the role of Carrie Fisher as a writer/editor/somebody who lived through the worst of Hollywood sexism/objectification as part of her experience as Leia. Her two most famous lines of writing advice were "Make the women smarter" and "Write the love scenes better." We've had both in these characters/relationships and gosh, didn't Rian Johnson talk about how after he'd done the early draft of the story and screenplay, he started working one-on-one with her to edit and draft the shooting script.

5. Things which absolute irritate me on 'feminist' (and most mainstream SW fandom idea of 'feminist' discourse is this weird mix of purity culture and 2nd wave feminism) discourse around the ST is how much fans fail to even consider how much of the ST perspective was shaped by women and their perspectives, between both LF executives and Carrie Fisher, and how that shows in these two characters and their relationship. It's also infuriating to hear a lot of fans continue to fixate on how Rey needs to be this blank vessel for shallow Girl Power empowerment fantasies (or just a gender swap to make her a female proxy for Luke) and meanwhile, look at how there are just so many different women, in roles minor and major, shown on screen. Like how f**king subversive was is to just have Carrie Fisher and Dame Harriet Walter (let alone Laura Dern and Amanda Lawrence) show up as older women with wrinkles/crows feet and grey (or purple) hair when Hollywood disregards actresses after they hit the age of 27. Like this NEVER gets mentioned ever because most fans are fixated on Rey. Especially after Carrie Fisher's crack that Leia was the only woman in Space. Or the insistance that it's not feminist for Rey Random that she 'should' be a legacy child instead of the bad guy. Or as a friend of mine who used to work in YA Publishing for Penguin (and knows those impulses and a lot of major players who've shaped fan perceptions through their writing) calls it, Internalized Fanboying. Which is like Internalized Misogyny, where women unconsciously associate the position of power/validation as putting a female character as an exact analogue of a male character because of the power associations with that gender.

tl:dr - it's great that it's coming into the mainstream, more openly discussed/recognized by the filmmakers because we all saw it. But the past two years, we sure as f**k have noticed and experienced the amount of gatekeeping for both fandom and feminism from other fans. And that in general, a lot of fans, no matter how progressive their views are, definitely lack the awareness or skillset to look at this and think about things like the use of the Female Gaze in the film, the influence of women as the leadership for LF (like you don't think Poe's response to Holdo's speech wasn't what happened when GL stepped down and KK took over) on the ST, and how fandom 'feminist' discourse sadly still revolves around one character because they want it to still follow/be validated by the rules of the Boy's Club (which the Jedi have to be some kind of analogue to the whole true fan phenomena).
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Post by snufkin on Sun 14 Jan 2018, 12:13 pm

Also can I just say that the dumbest 'feminist' Hot Take I've seen post-TLJ (and ya'll know me well enough to know I'm a Feminist Killjoy, Bleeding Liberal Heart above all else) are female BNFs carrying on about how there's not going to be a happy ending because it's instead going to be a take down of the Patriarchy a la The Beguiled or 9 to 5. To which I keep thinking, "this isn't the pop culture vehicle" you're looking for. Like #1 to my above point, if the female-led executive team of LF wanted that to be the story between these two characters, we sure as f**k would be seeing it in full force. It's not there. Maybe put some thought into what they're trying to do instead and #2 These are literally movies for 12-year-olds, not grown a** adults who have all this emotional baggage tied up in the OT, the PT, or the EU. In the words of a Marvel comic writer who said TLJ flipped a lot of the assumptions he had after the first movie about the characters, after talking to some kids are realizing what they were enthusiastic about was different than him, he needed to "get over myself." #3 As with the obtuseness in nobody outside of this corner recognizing/discussing the female gaze, it's amazing how there continues to be this Two-Fer of gatekeeping when it comes to both fandom and feminism (and me being interested in these characters/relationships is not some bullshit attempt at contrarianism, like see the whole recent business with Katie Roiphe rising from her grave to supposedly take down the s*** Media Men list) coming frequently from people battling against geek misogyny and the whole 'fake fangirl' or 'Mary Sue' behavior from fanboys.


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Post by Kylo Rey on Sun 14 Jan 2018, 12:15 pm

@snufkin wrote:I got other things to do this morning, but this is a great discussion. And a couple points that probably have to do with how this story turned out:

1. People seem to gloss over the fact that LF and the Story Group is predominantly female led/executives. Sure the most high profile social media employees are fanboys. And don't get me started again about how that role used to be occupied by a woman who got laid off prior to the Disney purchase). But anyways, while they missed the opportunity to have one of the ST films be written/directed by women (and you'd suspect that JJ was lobbying hard for Ava Duvernay to write/direct IX, but they went for Trevorrow based on JW BO and hired her for A Wrinkle in Time instead), it's ridiculous how much vocal fans overlook the simple truth that this franchise was created/managed by women.

2. A lot of the discussion where fans assume certain things about their relationship and his character are driven by the larger reckoning/come to Jesus moment happening in the Entertainment Industry and our society about misogyny. Which to the above point, the head of this entire enterprise is one of the people leading Time's Up, Kathleen Kennedy. So they're more than aware, especially given the # of women at this company who are more than familiar with how women have been treated in the entertainment industry, of what's typical for female roles and relationships in films. Which is why we're seeing what we're seeing - a subversion of those type of roles and relationships and an example of how to do it right. It's far ahead of the curve of what's happening in the rest of the industry, which is finally having all of its dirty secrets and assumptions being forced out into the open and discussed.

3. One thing which our corner recognized and has discussed, but which most of typical fandom just doesn't have the experience/skillset to recognize is the Motherf**king Female Gaze. Which again, women are in charge of this trilogy and it's there big time. Hence taking off the mask for Rey and showing off his 8 pack. Fanboys (and fangirls whose life experience is trying to get into the clubhouse) are either uncomfortable or can't process it because it doesn't center them and their gaze/perspective/pleasure at the center of the narrative. For those of you familiar with psychoanalysis discussions around Hitchcock's films, it's the good 'ol scopophilia.

4. Also something a lot of vocal fans and film critics (who typically graduated to that role from being fanboys) overlook is the role of Carrie Fisher as a writer/editor/somebody who lived through the worst of Hollywood sexism/objectification as part of her experience as Leia. Her two most famous lines of writing advice were "Make the women smarter" and "Write the love scenes better." We've had both in these characters/relationships and gosh, didn't Rian Johnson talk about how after he'd done the early draft of the story and screenplay, he started working one-on-one with her to edit and draft the shooting script.

5. Things which absolute irritate me on 'feminist' (and most mainstream SW fandom idea of 'feminist' discourse is this weird mix of purity culture and 2nd wave feminism) discourse around the ST is how much fans fail to even consider how much of the ST perspective was shaped by women and their perspectives, between both LF executives and Carrie Fisher, and how that shows in these two characters and their relationship. It's also infuriating to hear a lot of fans continue to fixate on how Rey needs to be this blank vessel for shallow Girl Power empowerment fantasies (or just a gender swap to make her a female proxy for Luke) and meanwhile, look at how there are just so many different women, in roles minor and major, shown on screen. Especially after Carrie Fisher's crack that Leia was the only woman in Space. Or the insistance that it's not feminist for Rey Random that she 'should' be a legacy child instead of the bad guy. Or as a friend of mine who used to work in YA Publishing for Penguin (and knows those impulses and a lot of major players who've shaped fan perceptions through their writing) calls it, Internalized Fanboying. Which is like Internalized Misogyny, where women unconsciously associate the position of power/validation as putting a female character as an exact analogue of a male character because of the power associations with that gender.
@snufkin

Brilliant post. You hit the nail on the head. When was the last time you could think of a blockbuster that centered on the female gaze and the male lead being more sexualized than the female lead? The answer is... never! A lot of the 2nd wave feminists miss so many important and crucial aspects of the way the dynamic has been set up that it's been infuriating. In terms of fandom discourse, the Reylo community has been so far ahead of everyone else it's ridiculous. Even simple things like looking at films older than Star Wars to draw analysis and make predictions - Pablo then backed that up on The TLJ secrets video by saying how it's easy to predict SW if you dig into film history. The LF story group being predominantly female led may also point to why we're seeing so many parallels with female authored fiction: Pride and Prejudice, Jane Eyre, Wuthering Heights, Daphne de Maurier's Rebecca etc. A lot of these deal with female sexual awakening and the transition from innocent childhood to sexually charged adulthood. The reversal and subversion of Rey and Kylo's gender dynamic would probably be something these women would have loved to have written if they were alive today. The only recent major films I can think of that hit some of these beats is probably GdT's films (Shape of Water, Crimson Peak) and Patty Jenkins' Wonder Woman. A lot of modern blockbusters try to circumvent this by featuring female leads with the trademarked "strong independent woman who needs no man" but that isn't a substitute for a personality. And neither are feminine traits like vulnerability, emotion and dealing with your burgeoning sexuality a sign of weakness. These are lacking far too often in the way female characters are shaped. It IS possible to be both vulnerable AND strong and have flaws; it's the complex, three-dimensional characterisation that only males are afforded and I would love to see more often in women too.
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Post by ZioRen on Sun 14 Jan 2018, 3:28 pm

@Ynqve wrote:Honestly, most of the times when I see someone claiming that Reylo is sexist and misogynistic the person who says it tend to sound sexist themselves. Not only do they misrepresent Kylo's actions and motives, they almost always conveniently "forget" or disregard Rey's decisions and agency.

There are some aspects in Reylo that could have been problematic but they aren't because Rey isn't a lovesick doormat who accepts everything Kylo does. She challenges him, she escapes from him and she's always the one who makes the first move when they fight. The idea that Reylo is sexist or abusive to women is completely ridiculous.
@Ynqve

And the kicker: These things are what Kylo LIKES about Rey. He craves an equal and someone with which he has mutual understanding. He wants her to want him. You'd think that Kylo not being the least bit angry or frustrated with Rey at the start of TLJ, even after she defeated him handily and scarred his face, would have clued some people in on the dynamic here. He didn't do the seething "I can't believe that untrained GIRL beat me", that was all Snoke.
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Post by lauvamp on Sun 14 Jan 2018, 4:00 pm

All the people who claim so easily "the offensive" nature of Reylo demonstrate that they're not very smart, in my opinion. Yes, Disney sells abusive/sexist and toxic relationships  Lolilol

Romantic Reylo AKA the Who's Your Daddy Thread - Page 37 Tumblr_ow0xmzA1jj1w6j24yo1_1280
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Post by MyOnlyHope on Sun 14 Jan 2018, 4:15 pm

@lauvamp wrote:All the people who claim so easily "the offensive" nature of Reylo demonstrate that they're not very smart, in my opinion. Yes, Disney sells abusive/sexist and toxic relationships  Lolilol

Romantic Reylo AKA the Who's Your Daddy Thread - Page 37 Tumblr_ow0xmzA1jj1w6j24yo1_1280
@lauvamp
I'm genuinely curious if Kylo Ken's shirt is removable and if his pants are high wasted tbh.

Edit. Yup, all the clothes are removable at the very least. What a message to send to little girls. Smh Disney.
Romantic Reylo AKA the Who's Your Daddy Thread - Page 37 YwS4sfz


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Post by lauvamp on Sun 14 Jan 2018, 4:16 pm

@MyOnlyHope

hahaha we'll see, I'm planning to buy them! Twisted Evil
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Post by Starliteprism on Sun 14 Jan 2018, 4:48 pm

@MyOnlyHope wrote:
@lauvamp wrote:All the people who claim so easily "the offensive" nature of Reylo demonstrate that they're not very smart, in my opinion. Yes, Disney sells abusive/sexist and toxic relationships  Lolilol

Romantic Reylo AKA the Who's Your Daddy Thread - Page 37 Tumblr_ow0xmzA1jj1w6j24yo1_1280
@lauvamp
I'm genuinely curious if Kylo Ken's shirt is removable and if his pants are high wasted tbh.

Edit. Yup, all the clothes are removable at the very least. What a message to send to little girls. Smh Disney.
Romantic Reylo AKA the Who's Your Daddy Thread - Page 37 YwS4sfz
@MyOnlyHope

My hubbie pre-ordered this for me months back. Here's hoping it arrives at the end of the month. ;-)
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Post by snufkin on Sun 14 Jan 2018, 4:52 pm

The LF story group being predominantly female led may also point to why we're seeing so many parallels with female authored fiction: Pride and Prejudice, Jane Eyre, Wuthering Heights, Daphne de Maurier's Rebecca etc. A lot of these deal with female sexual awakening and the transition from innocent childhood to sexually charged adulthood. The reversal and subversion of Rey and Kylo's gender dynamic would probably be something these women would have loved to have written if they were alive today.

A lot of modern blockbusters try to circumvent this by featuring female leads with the trademarked "strong independent woman who needs no man" but that isn't a substitute for a personality.

@Kylo Rey

Awesome post and timely because I've been chatting recently with fans elsewhere about the influence of both old films and the gothic romance genre on the ST. ESPECIALLY the novels of Daphne DuMaurier and their various adaptions (I thought what happened with Rey was a lot like Jamaica Inn). It's so frustrating that other than one film critic (and a man, no less), there's been ZERO recognition of the potential influence of the gothic romance genre and these writers (all female) on the ST as part of being told as a female centered and driven narrative. Which may account for how Crimson Peak was mismarketed by its distributors as straight-up horror when GdT is one of the most vocal Bronte sisters and Mary Shelley (who he has his heroine act as a self-insert by telling off the characters sniggering at her writing ambitions by stating that she's a bad a** who single handedly invented the fantasy/horror genre) fans you'll ever hear from. I was lucky enough to see his At Home With Monsters exhibit at the Los Angeles County Museum of Art and it can't be stressed enough how much that movie was a labor of love for him for that genre and that Shelley/The Bronte Sisters are among the central writers who've influence him as an artist.

Absolutely the response of a lot of blockbusters and fans in response to just all of the gross sexist tropes* (which surprise, get entangled with Vader as an iconic character) which have shaped post-sexual revolution behavior and storytelling in the film industry is to try and circumvent it by cutting out anything to do with romance or sex for female characters. Which the impulse is understandable because the reckoning right now is happening both within the entertainment industry and our larger society (and disclaimer, I'm generally not a fan of Jessica Valenti and Deneuve's 'statement' didn't disappoint me b/c I've had so many arguments with women from that generation who were conditioned to think any type of attention from men is validation)

Merkin says, “stripping sex of eros isn’t the solution”. But whose “eros” are we really worried about? As Vox journalist Laura McGann put it this week at a media event, “I don’t see this uprising of 22-year-old women saying, ‘I want the right to sleep with my boss.’”

As has been the case for so long, the backlash to #MeToo is about what men want and protecting their right to have it.

If it wasn’t, we’d see a spate of panicked articles about teenage girls being arrested and charged with distributing child abuse images after sending nude photos to their boyfriends. Unlike the men outed by #MeToo, none of whom have been held to real account, these young people are actually being criminalized for consensual romantic behavior. Where is the open letter on their behalf?

There’s a reason so many people are conflating bad and sometimes criminal behavior with romance: traditional ideas about seduction rely on tropes of women witholding sex and men working hard to get it. It’s a narrow notion of heterosexuality – one that does a good job excusing abusive behavior

Bolded is the crux of that matter and where the debate lands on these films and characters. Things are frustrating and confusing now, but hopefully, this is also a watershed moment. And I love Deneuve as an actress - but the position she's defending isn't about consensual flirtation/romance/seduction. It's about a set of ingrained cultural attitudes/power dynamics which have to do with the male gaze and women being conditioned to feel like being on the receiving end, welcomed or not, of this type of attention from men validates them. Or that they have no voice/power in the situation if they don't welcome this attention. Which hoo boy Hollywood has abused the Hell out that dynamic going back to the silent era when it comes to women who were used/abused/raped/taken advantage of by men in power.  And we know that RJ's partner is a film historian/feminist who's written and podcasted extensively on this topic, he worked with Carrie Fisher who knew through both her own life experience and her mother's life as a product of the studio system about it, and his both is Kathleen Kennedy who's one of the founders/biggest voices for Time's Up. Like these are all people who are super aware and enmeshed in these issues and working against them, so that's where I fall on the "They know what they're doing and this is absolutely not that" side of things.

Also KK was on television in the States this morning (along with Padme herself) talking about Time's Up and interesting thing is her comments including how as women now in positions of authority/power in the film industry, they were trying to push back and change the script with the content they create. Although that segment just furthered my love for Traci Ross-Ellis, who I've been a fan of going back to Girlfriends.

We have to maintain the momentum of this conversation because they can't. It's not only in what we're doing with a group like Time's Up, but it's in the content we're creating, the conversations we're having. We have to continue this work because we do have the spotlight.



Also lookit at Reddit of all places, having a sincere discussion about the influx of new female fans thanks to the ST

That isn't to day there wasnt always female interest in Star Wars. There always has been.

But I think the ST is doing what I didn't think was possible and GROWING the Star Wars base even further by tapping into femininity. I love seeing the beautiful theories posted on here by women or girls back from the theater so passionately interested in Star Wars lore, and I believe the following has a lot to do with it.

The PT had romance that was distinctly and likely purposely masculine in it's narrative, mainly due to the fact that the main characters were men. Anakin's primary fear was loss. Of his mother, and then Padme. This drove him. This fear of loss is a very familiar feeling for men with daughters or wives. Love is different for men. It represents a responsibility. A desire to protect. (Also, as written and directed by Lucas, was very poorly done, and this is from someone who actually loves the prequels.)

Contrasting, the ST has romance that feels distinctly feminine in it's narrative again made sense based on the fact that it is told from a female MC. The overarching theme is sense of purpose and belonging. Young girls more than young boys know this feeling all too well. Whether in High School or within society as a whole - the idea of "belonging" is important to everyone, sure, but in many ways it is a uniquely feminine desire. Like fear of loss drove the romance saga in the PT, searching for purpose drives the romance story in the ST. Kylo is a lost soul, in many ways like Rey while at the same time foreign and mysterious to her. A fallen Prince of royalty she can never understand, but whose sadness in his eyes she is all too familiar with. Rey wants to save him. Her care for him is driven by her desire to save him. Not necessarily because she cares about Ben as a person - though it is clear she does in some ways - but also because her sense of purpose relies now on Kylo. Because of a deeper purpose that she subscribes to - a very feminine outlook. As much as they are Yin and Yang within the force, they are also such within the context of their greater purpose.

So as much as we still have Star Wars and not too much has changed - there are subtle yet distinct changes to the way the narrative is told that I think have grown the brand tremendously, no doubt due to Kathleen Kennedy at the helm. Great time to be a fan!

* other than Fast Times at Ridgemont High, Valley Girl, and Gas, Food, Lodging (which surprise, were all written/directed by women), it's hard to think of major films which depict sex as something their young female protagonists actually desired and pursued without getting punished/judged/taken advantage of. Even in recent movies, the losing her virginity plotline in Ladybird is depicted as an ultimately disappointing experience but she retained agency the whole time and doesn't regret the experience other than the romance part falling apart because the boy she did it with turns out to be a poseur.


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Post by lauvamp on Sun 14 Jan 2018, 4:54 pm

@Starliteprism

Cool! Can you recommend me a good website to pre-order? I saw them in Amazon UK and USA but not Spain yet Sad (I will ask to a Disney Store in Barcelona). They are too awesome! I need them for my collection Embarassed

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Post by californiagirl on Sun 14 Jan 2018, 4:57 pm

I didn't even know this fandom even really existed until this summer, when the marketing for TLJ was already rolling along (I actually came for precisely that reason, as Kylo and AD were seriously MIA during this early phase). So I'm still a little green when it comes to taking things many other non-Reylo outlets or individuals say with a grain of salt, or just ignoring it altogether. Maybe I stop watching Jedi Council? I'm even newer to them than I am to here! I don't have Reddit, I have a slightly irrational fear of it.
lol!

The most intelligent discussion I found when going through the online TLJ hype came from this segment of the fandom, the Reylos. The group of people who most closely predicted what would happen in Episode 8 were, guess who, the Reylos. It just astonishes me when fans had their expectations shattered by TLJ and immediately act like that never happened and have the utmost confidence when predicting Episode 9. Those who do not learn from the past are doomed to repeat it! Very Happy Maybe I should keep all that in mind more often and remember who was actually right at the end of the day. Smile
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Post by MyOnlyHope on Sun 14 Jan 2018, 5:28 pm

@californiagirl wrote:I didn't even know this fandom even really existed until this summer, when the marketing for TLJ was already rolling along (I actually came for precisely that reason, as Kylo and AD were seriously MIA during this early phase). So I'm still a little green when it comes to taking things many other non-Reylo outlets or individuals say with a grain of salt, or just ignoring it altogether. Maybe I stop watching Jedi Council? I'm even newer to them than I am to here! I don't have Reddit, I have a slightly irrational fear of it.
lol!

The most intelligent discussion I found when going through the online TLJ hype came from this segment of the fandom, the Reylos. The group of people who most closely predicted what would happen in Episode 8 were, guess who, the Reylos. It just astonishes me when fans had their expectations shattered by TLJ and immediately act like that never happened and have the utmost confidence when predicting Episode 9. Those who do not learn from the past are doomed to repeat it! Very Happy Maybe I should keep all that in mind more often and remember who was actually right at the end of the day. Smile
@californiagirl
It's up to you, but dropping unfriendly forum spaces is a wise choice IMO. I wouldn't bother listening to their podcasts or watching their videos either. Headaches aren't fun. They were wrong about TLJ and they're going to continue being wrong so long as they keep walking around with their eyes closed (which is, unfortunately, exactly what they're going to do).

SW Reddit is literally composed of 95% Reylos at this point, especially the Star Wars Speculation subreddit (it has been for a long time). I recommend it for endless laughs. Laughing
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Post by Kylo Rey on Sun 14 Jan 2018, 5:49 pm

@snufkin wrote:
The LF story group being predominantly female led may also point to why we're seeing so many parallels with female authored fiction: Pride and Prejudice, Jane Eyre, Wuthering Heights, Daphne de Maurier's Rebecca etc. A lot of these deal with female sexual awakening and the transition from innocent childhood to sexually charged adulthood. The reversal and subversion of Rey and Kylo's gender dynamic would probably be something these women would have loved to have written if they were alive today.

A lot of modern blockbusters try to circumvent this by featuring female leads with the trademarked "strong independent woman who needs no man" but that isn't a substitute for a personality.

@Kylo Rey

Awesome post and timely because I've been chatting recently with fans elsewhere about the influence of both old films and the gothic romance genre on the ST. ESPECIALLY the novels of Daphne DuMaurier and their various adaptions (I thought what happened with Rey was a lot like Jamaica Inn). It's so frustrating that other than one film critic (and a man, no less), there's been ZERO recognition of the potential influence of the gothic romance genre and these writers (all female) on the ST as part of being told as a female centered and driven narrative. Which may account for how Crimson Peak was mismarketed by its distributors as straight-up horror when GdT is one of the most vocal Bronte sisters and Mary Shelley (who he has his heroine act as a self-insert by telling off the characters sniggering at her writing ambitions by stating that she's a bad a** who single handedly invented the fantasy/horror genre) fans you'll ever hear from. I was lucky enough to see his At Home With Monsters exhibit at the Los Angeles County Museum of Art and it can't be stressed enough how much that movie was a labor of love for him for that genre and that Shelley/The Bronte Sisters are among the central writers who've influence him as an artist.

Absolutely the response of a lot of blockbusters and fans in response to just all of the gross sexist tropes* (which surprise, get entangled with Vader as an iconic character) which have shaped post-sexual revolution behavior and storytelling in the film industry is to try and circumvent it by cutting out anything to do with romance or sex for female characters. Which the impulse is understandable because the reckoning right now is happening both within the entertainment industry and our larger society (and disclaimer, I'm generally not a fan of Jessica Valenti and Deneuve's 'statement' didn't disappoint me b/c I've had so many arguments with women from that generation who were conditioned to think any type of attention from men is validation)

Merkin says, “stripping sex of eros isn’t the solution”. But whose “eros” are we really worried about? As Vox journalist Laura McGann put it this week at a media event, “I don’t see this uprising of 22-year-old women saying, ‘I want the right to sleep with my boss.’”

As has been the case for so long, the backlash to #MeToo is about what men want and protecting their right to have it.

If it wasn’t, we’d see a spate of panicked articles about teenage girls being arrested and charged with distributing child abuse images after sending nude photos to their boyfriends. Unlike the men outed by #MeToo, none of whom have been held to real account, these young people are actually being criminalized for consensual romantic behavior. Where is the open letter on their behalf?

There’s a reason so many people are conflating bad and sometimes criminal behavior with romance: traditional ideas about seduction rely on tropes of women witholding sex and men working hard to get it. It’s a narrow notion of heterosexuality – one that does a good job excusing abusive behavior

Bolded is the crux of that matter and where the debate lands on these films and characters. Things are frustrating and confusing now, but hopefully, this is also a watershed moment. And I love Deneuve as an actress - but the position she's defending isn't about consensual flirtation/romance/seduction. It's about a set of ingrained cultural attitudes/power dynamics which have to do with the male gaze and women being conditioned to feel like being on the receiving end, welcomed or not, of this type of attention from men validates them. Or that they have no voice/power in the situation if they don't welcome this attention. Which hoo boy Hollywood has abused the Hell out that dynamic going back to the silent era when it comes to women who were used/abused/raped/taken advantage of by men in power.  And we know that RJ's partner is a film historian/feminist who's written and podcasted extensively on this topic, he worked with Carrie Fisher who knew through both her own life experience and her mother's life as a product of the studio system about it, and his both is Kathleen Kennedy who's one of the founders/biggest voices for Time's Up. Like these are all people who are super aware and enmeshed in these issues and working against them, so that's where I fall on the "They know what they're doing and this is absolutely not that" side of things.

Also KK was on television in the States this morning (along with Padme herself) talking about Time's Up and interesting thing is her comments including how as women now in positions of authority/power in the film industry, they were trying to push back and change the script with the content they create. Although that segment just furthered my love for Traci Ross-Ellis, who I've been a fan of going back to Girlfriends.

We have to maintain the momentum of this conversation because they can't. It's not only in what we're doing with a group like Time's Up, but it's in the content we're creating, the conversations we're having. We have to continue this work because we do have the spotlight.



Also lookit at Reddit of all places, having a sincere discussion about the influx of new female fans thanks to the ST

That isn't to day there wasnt always female interest in Star Wars. There always has been.

But I think the ST is doing what I didn't think was possible and GROWING the Star Wars base even further by tapping into femininity. I love seeing the beautiful theories posted on here by women or girls back from the theater so passionately interested in Star Wars lore, and I believe the following has a lot to do with it.

The PT had romance that was distinctly and likely purposely masculine in it's narrative, mainly due to the fact that the main characters were men. Anakin's primary fear was loss. Of his mother, and then Padme. This drove him. This fear of loss is a very familiar feeling for men with daughters or wives. Love is different for men. It represents a responsibility. A desire to protect. (Also, as written and directed by Lucas, was very poorly done, and this is from someone who actually loves the prequels.)

Contrasting, the ST has romance that feels distinctly feminine in it's narrative again made sense based on the fact that it is told from a female MC. The overarching theme is sense of purpose and belonging. Young girls more than young boys know this feeling all too well. Whether in High School or within society as a whole - the idea of "belonging" is important to everyone, sure, but in many ways it is a uniquely feminine desire. Like fear of loss drove the romance saga in the PT, searching for purpose drives the romance story in the ST. Kylo is a lost soul, in many ways like Rey while at the same time foreign and mysterious to her. A fallen Prince of royalty she can never understand, but whose sadness in his eyes she is all too familiar with. Rey wants to save him. Her care for him is driven by her desire to save him. Not necessarily because she cares about Ben as a person - though it is clear she does in some ways - but also because her sense of purpose relies now on Kylo. Because of a deeper purpose that she subscribes to - a very feminine outlook. As much as they are Yin and Yang within the force, they are also such within the context of their greater purpose.

So as much as we still have Star Wars and not too much has changed - there are subtle yet distinct changes to the way the narrative is told that I think have grown the brand tremendously, no doubt due to Kathleen Kennedy at the helm. Great time to be a fan!

* other than Fast Times at Ridgemont High, Valley Girl, and Gas, Food, Lodging (which surprise, were all written/directed by women), it's hard to think of major films which depict sex as something their young female protagonists actually desired and pursued without getting punished/judged/taken advantage of. Even in recent movies, the losing her virginity plotline in Ladybird is depicted as an ultimately disappointing experience but she retained agency the whole time and doesn't regret the experience other than the romance part falling apart because the boy she did it with turns out to be a poseur.
@snufkin

I saw that Reddit post before, absolutely fantastic. I never thought about the difference between Anakin and Rey's love stories and the subtle differences between what men and women want from their romances, very interesting. And completely agreed that it's very rare to see a female character pursue a relationship due to her sexual desire/lust and not be punished for it, especially when she initiated it. Feels very weird and refreshing. Rey completely retains her agency. The more I think about it, the more I find it harder to draw a complete 1:1 parallel to Rey & Kylo's relationship, it really does feel like the first of its kind.
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Post by Ynqve on Sun 14 Jan 2018, 5:57 pm

@MyOnlyHope wrote:
@californiagirl wrote:I didn't even know this fandom even really existed until this summer, when the marketing for TLJ was already rolling along (I actually came for precisely that reason, as Kylo and AD were seriously MIA during this early phase). So I'm still a little green when it comes to taking things many other non-Reylo outlets or individuals say with a grain of salt, or just ignoring it altogether. Maybe I stop watching Jedi Council? I'm even newer to them than I am to here! I don't have Reddit, I have a slightly irrational fear of it.
lol!

The most intelligent discussion I found when going through the online TLJ hype came from this segment of the fandom, the Reylos. The group of people who most closely predicted what would happen in Episode 8 were, guess who, the Reylos. It just astonishes me when fans had their expectations shattered by TLJ and immediately act like that never happened and have the utmost confidence when predicting Episode 9. Those who do not learn from the past are doomed to repeat it! Very Happy Maybe I should keep all that in mind more often and remember who was actually right at the end of the day. Smile
@californiagirl
It's up to you, but dropping unfriendly forum spaces is a wise choice IMO. I wouldn't bother listening to their podcasts or watching their videos either. Headaches aren't fun. They were wrong about TLJ and they're going to continue being wrong so long as they keep walking around with their eyes closed (which is, unfortunately, exactly what they're going to do).

SW Reddit is literally composed of 95% Reylos at this point, especially the Star Wars Speculation subreddit (it has been for a long time). I recommend it for endless laughs. Laughing
@MyOnlyHope

Maybe I'm crazy but I actually enjoy listening to outlets like Collider because they're so wrong and salty about it. It's hilarious! And once the marketing for IX kicks in, Disney is going to make sure that they all toe the line and become devout Reylo's. The amount of backpedaling that some of them are going to have to do will be pure comedy gold.
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Post by californiagirl on Sun 14 Jan 2018, 6:11 pm

@Ynqve wrote:
@MyOnlyHope wrote:
@californiagirl wrote:I didn't even know this fandom even really existed until this summer, when the marketing for TLJ was already rolling along (I actually came for precisely that reason, as Kylo and AD were seriously MIA during this early phase). So I'm still a little green when it comes to taking things many other non-Reylo outlets or individuals say with a grain of salt, or just ignoring it altogether. Maybe I stop watching Jedi Council? I'm even newer to them than I am to here! I don't have Reddit, I have a slightly irrational fear of it.
lol!

The most intelligent discussion I found when going through the online TLJ hype came from this segment of the fandom, the Reylos. The group of people who most closely predicted what would happen in Episode 8 were, guess who, the Reylos. It just astonishes me when fans had their expectations shattered by TLJ and immediately act like that never happened and have the utmost confidence when predicting Episode 9. Those who do not learn from the past are doomed to repeat it! Very Happy Maybe I should keep all that in mind more often and remember who was actually right at the end of the day. Smile
@californiagirl
It's up to you, but dropping unfriendly forum spaces is a wise choice IMO. I wouldn't bother listening to their podcasts or watching their videos either. Headaches aren't fun. They were wrong about TLJ and they're going to continue being wrong so long as they keep walking around with their eyes closed (which is, unfortunately, exactly what they're going to do).

SW Reddit is literally composed of 95% Reylos at this point, especially the Star Wars Speculation subreddit (it has been for a long time). I recommend it for endless laughs. Laughing
@MyOnlyHope

Maybe I'm crazy but I actually enjoy listening to outlets like Collider because they're so wrong and salty about it. It's hilarious! And once the marketing for IX kicks in, Disney is going to make sure that they all toe the line and become devout Reylo's. The amount of backpedaling that some of them are going to have to do will be pure comedy gold.
@Ynqve

I don't hang around their forum, though I'm vaguely aware there is one. I watch their weekly video because they really aren't that bad to listen to usually and I like all the personalities on there, but when it comes to Kylo.... yeesh. Not pretty. Or accurate. Like at all. A little sad, but I should probably stop, since they don't really grasp larger-picture story structure, character development, and the kinds of stories that influence Star Wars. You know, the discussion points over here.

As to the potential full-on Reylo Ep. IX marketing that will send fanboys into a tizzy, please, oh LF, Disney, and all TPTB, make this happen. You've already got a doll set coming out, please keep the Reylo train in motion. Very Happy
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Post by snufkin on Sun 14 Jan 2018, 6:21 pm

@Kylo Rey I think that's what blew a lot of our minds about the cliff scene sequence in TFA. Because 'feeling the Force or whatever together' sure looks an awful lot like
Spoiler:
she's in the middle of having an orgasm while he's both watching her and helping her climax. That was consensual, the act of connecting together via the Force is mutually pleasurable for the both of them, and his behavior in that moment was a bout her. It's also one of the few moments where Rey is shown via his perspective and while it's always sensual/beautiful, it's not about titillation.
That moment + villain making heart eyes at somebody who's most definitely not the type of character who'd be the typical super villain's love interest (instead a nerdy tomboy/orphan who's from the wrong side of the tracks) is where I was like "something interesting is going on here."
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Post by Kylo Rey on Sun 14 Jan 2018, 6:35 pm

@snufkin wrote:@Kylo Rey I think that's what blew a lot of our minds about the cliff scene sequence in TFA. Because 'feeling the Force or whatever together' sure looks an awful lot like
Spoiler:
she's in the middle of having an orgasm while he's both watching her and helping her climax. That was consensual, the act of connecting together via the Force is mutually pleasurable for the both of them, and his behavior in that moment was a bout her. It's also one of the few moments where Rey is shown via his perspective and while it's always sensual/beautiful, it's not about titillation.
That moment + villain making heart eyes at somebody who's most definitely not the type of character who'd be the typical super villain's love interest (instead a nerdy tomboy/orphan who's from the wrong side of the tracks) is where I was like "something interesting is going on here."
@snufkin

Also, the loud breathing in the interrogation scene and the way they both shudder after their mini mind probe session ends - it's so obviously a metaphor for sex. Another moment where Rey is shown from Ben's perspective: in TLJ when she mails herself to him in her coffin. It's the most makeup she's worn at that point and her outfit and hair are put together very nicely too. She looks like an angel and is positively glowing. Also, good point about super villain love interests. It's not your typical edgy evil couple at all.
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