Fight Scenes Analysis

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Re: Fight Scenes Analysis

Post by Darth Dementor on Thu 04 Jan 2018, 1:11 am

Could the Praetorian-guards-defeat-jedi?

If these guys were tasked with guarding Snoke then surely it's possible for them to beat a lone Jedi. It took both Rey and Ben Solo to defeat them.

After all
to beat a Force-user, you have to have a degree of speed and sheer skill. Take General Grievous, for example; he uses the same weapons as Jedi yet defeats them because of his superhuman speed. The Praetorian Guards, similarly, are also skilled weapons users able to move at high speed. This is why they manage to last more than a few seconds against Rey and Kylo.

Without Kylo and Rey teaming up to defeat the Praetorian Guards, the fight would have latest much longer. Given the Praetorian Guards’ skill set and unique weaponry, the outcome for both young Force-user would likely have been a negative one if they fought alone. Against one lone Jedi, no matter how skilled, Snoke’s elite bodyguard’s would have the upper hand.

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Re: Fight Scenes Analysis

Post by shii405 on Thu 04 Jan 2018, 1:57 am

So one Praetorian Guard is probably more or less equal with one Force user? But then how about using Jedi mind trick on them?

I am also under the impression that both Rey and Kylo's strength in the Force are superior, far above average Jedi, like maybe Luke? Since Luke is scared to see their "raw power?" So I guess that's why one Rey/Kylo can beat 4 Praetorian guards each?
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Re: Fight Scenes Analysis

Post by Night Huntress on Thu 04 Jan 2018, 2:04 am

@shii405 wrote:So one Praetorian Guard is probably more or less equal with one Force user? But then how about using Jedi mind trick on them?
@shii405

Remember Jedi mind tricks only work on the weak-minded. I have no idea how much is known about the PG- but I think they're trained to protect Snoke against all kinds of enemies... even force users. Snoke knew there is a chance his own apprentice will turn against him one day, so he has to prepare himself for that case.  Nope

I also wondered if the PG are force-sensitive themselves but are only trained to use their powers for the purpose to fight against other force-users to protect their master.  Confus
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Re: Fight Scenes Analysis

Post by Rei of Sunshine on Thu 04 Jan 2018, 2:12 am

@shii405 wrote:So one Praetorian Guard is probably more or less equal with one Force user? But then how about using Jedi mind trick on them?

I am also under the impression that both Rey and Kylo's strength in the Force are superior, far above average Jedi, like maybe Luke? Since Luke is scared to see their "raw power?" So I guess that's why one Rey/Kylo can beat 4 Praetorian guards each?
@shii405

I have a feeling that the Praets are either like Hux who are mentally strong and can withstand mindtricks. Or their minds are enslaved to Snoke that no other Force user could control them while Snoke is around. But with Snoke dead they probably have like an auto command set in their minds to avenge their master.
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Re: Fight Scenes Analysis

Post by Jakku on Thu 04 Jan 2018, 4:18 pm

I think perhaps Ben bends because it protects his vulnerable middle?
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Re: Fight Scenes Analysis

Post by HJ98 on Tue 09 Jan 2018, 7:39 pm

Yessss! Ben needs to protect them pecks!
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Re: Fight Scenes Analysis

Post by Cowgirlsamurai on Thu 18 Jan 2018, 4:44 pm

Sexual Symbolism in the Praetorian Guard Fight Scene

I can’t unsee the Resistance transports as sperm Shocked
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Re: Fight Scenes Analysis

Post by DeeBee on Thu 18 Jan 2018, 6:21 pm

@Cowgirlsamurai wrote:Sexual Symbolism in the Praetorian Guard Fight Scene

I can’t unsee the Resistance transports as sperm Shocked
@Cowgirlsamurai

Whoooooooo Haaaaaaaaaaaa!
*DeeBee* fans herself furiously..
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Re: Fight Scenes Analysis

Post by Night Huntress on Fri 19 Jan 2018, 12:47 am

@Cowgirlsamurai wrote:Sexual Symbolism in the Praetorian Guard Fight Scene

I can’t unsee the Resistance transports as sperm Shocked
@Cowgirlsamurai

and it's hilarious how offended people are because someone wrote a meta about that symbolism - I'm amused... didn't know it's such a tabu in 2018. Or are we europeans more open minded about that? I don't know. Laughing
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Re: Fight Scenes Analysis

Post by Cowgirlsamurai on Mon 22 Jan 2018, 7:21 am

Sorry, not an analysis, but the fight scene set to ABBA feels like a scene out of Kill Bill Laughing

http://pacificwanderer.tumblr.com/post/169991867933/leiafox-pretty-sure-rian-johnson-timed-this
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Re: Fight Scenes Analysis

Post by ZioRen on Thu 01 Feb 2018, 2:31 am

I'll revive this thread to post Rian's discussion about the Throne Room fight scene during the Collider Q&A. Because, frankly, it's hot af.

I loved the notion of it being more of like an alleyway fight, Rey and Kylo versus these guards. It’s gonna be down and dirty. It’s gonna be brutal. You’re really gonna feel the muscle and the sweat of the whole thing. The whole thing with that is let’s really get into it and feel like a brawl between everybody. Let’s not have it feel… I guess pulling back a little which I love from the gorgeous ballet-like choreography, but this is not that. This is rougher. She’s more untrained. He’s obviously a lot more rough around the edges and they’re fighting off a huge [something something inaudible] so let’s get brutal with it.

Transcription from tellcassiopeia on Tumblr
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Re: Fight Scenes Analysis

Post by giaciak2 on Thu 01 Feb 2018, 3:56 am

@shii405 wrote:As a martial arts movies fan, I'd like to analyze the fight scenes in The Last Jedi. There are 4 fight scenes, I think?

1. Rey vs Luke
2. Reylo vs the Praetorians
3. Finn vs Phasma
4. Kylo vs Luke

I thought Rose had a fight rehearsal with a nightstick? Is the scene deleted?

My favorite is, of course, Reylo vs the Praetorians, that is the best lightsaber fight scene ever in SW history, no doubt for me. (Next best in SW history is Qui Gon Jinn - Obiwan Kenobi vs Darth Maul, imho, the only good stuff in TPM)
After 2nd viewing, I just realized Rey vs Luke short fight scene was a pleasant to watch too. Luke did great for his age, it was a lot faster fight moves than what he had to do in the 80s. Kylo vs Luke was quite interesting, too. Finn vs Phasma is my least fav.

So, I found out the fight choreographer and stunt coordinator for both TFA and TLJ is Liang Yang. He's the guy Daisy and John praised so much during TFA promos. He played Stormtrooper FN-2199 whom Finn had a fight scene with in TFA. Obviously, Liang Yang's background is Chinese martial art.

Fight choreographer for the original trilogy was Bob Anderson, an Olympic fencer. I'm not sure why this video claims SW lightsaber fights influenced a lot by kendo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vGjNnZhJFI
But I guess fencing and kendo kinda similar, they are very slow in movements, really different than Chinese swordplay.
Bob Anderson also played Darth Vader for his fight scenes with Luke. As I grew up with kungfu movies, I have to say the Vader vs Obiwan/Luke fight scenes in OT bored me to death, lol.

Fight choreographer for the prequel trilogy is Nick Gillard. I don't know what is his martial art background, but the lightsaber fight scenes have really stepped up its games in the prequels, they've become really fast and similar to Chinese swordplay, I gotta say.

As for Liang Yang's fights, I can see he use Chinese style as basic but most of the moves are pretty much MMA and universal. Especially, because lightsaber is a unique weapon that does not exist in other movies or real life, the effect and the way to use it, will have to be different than normal swords.


Reylo vs the Praetorians

"2 vs many" pattern is always tricky, I always find the fight so BS even in Chinese films when you see the multiple opponents just moving around so fake just waiting for their turn to attack the hero, it just looks so funny. I am amused to see they portrayed the Praetorian guards as gentlemen when it comes to Rey, haha. One of them was actually kneeling on the floor, waiting for his turn, maybe thinking his friend is good enough to finish the girl. I like they actually give these faceless guards personality/character to make the fight scene works and doesn't look stupid. As for the guards facing Kylo, they seem to be very cautious and on-guard with Kylo... the 3 guards doesn't attack him at the same time, though they were surrounding him. It was Kylo who attacked one of them first. I'm not sure if that makes sense. Although, thinking they might know he's a Force user, maybe that's what made them being extra careful with Kylo? Also, from their body language, it seems like they were looking for the right timing to attack Kylo. They didn't just move randomly. I love how we can easily tell that these faceless Praetorians are badasses. Awesome directing by Rian.
The other amazing thing from the Praetorians is their awesome variety of weapons. Chinese movies doesn't have that kind of variety. But it looks like it is inspired from R-rated Indonesian martial arts movie, The Raid. "The Raid" cast played the Kanjiklub gang in TFA. JJ invited "The Raid" guys to be a part of the cast because he loved the movie. I wonder if the variety of weapons is JJ's idea? JJ asked one of "The Raid" guys to choreograph a fight, he did it, but then JJ told him "That's awesome... but uhh, it's too violent for a PG13, we can't use it, sorry" lol

It's also interesting that when they were separated, Kylo's fights were the long-range type, meanwhile Rey got all the close-quarter ones (when the thing pointing at her throat and also the ending when she had to drop her saber to win). Maybe close-quarter fight would be easier for Daisy. Long-range fight is very tiring and takes up a lot of energy. I love how Kylo blocked an attack and used his opponent's push to block a 2nd attack from the side. That's very basic Chinese teaching. Also love it when Kylo snatched away the dead opponent's spear, that's a good tactic to increase chances of winning the fight with the other opponent, and it must not be easy to pull off.

And of course... my pure nerdgasm came when Rey threw her saber to Kylo and he finished it off (NO PUN INTENDED). I mean, Rey could've just ran toward them and killed the guard herself, but nooo... she let Kylo get his cool handsome moment and finished the last opponent himself, made it a grand, epic ending to the whole sex fight scene. AWESOME!!

Big applause to Adam and Daisy for doing all those stunts themselves. And, Adam is just beyond awesome. Daisy made a lot of effort and she did a great job pulling off all those stunts, but I can see she is still struggling and alot of her moves does not flow, there is discontinuity in her moves. But... Adam, Adam... he is so flawless in his moves. I swear I'm not biased, I've noticed this since TFA, before I was a fan! I thought Adam looks very comfortable in swinging around his lightsaber. When I see Kylo fighting those Praetorians, I can really believe that the lightsaber is like a part of his body and that he is really an expert in fighting. I wonder what kind of martial arts he learned in military?
In "The Raid 2" movie, there is this character Hammer Girl who uses two hammers in all of her fight scenes. The actress said she was told by the director, to hold the hammers in her hands in her daily life and play around with them in her free time for six months to get used to it, because in the fight scenes, it has to look like the hammers are extension of her own hands.
Since Adam is a method actor, I wonder if he was holding the crossguard lightsaber in his free time at home to get used to it? Cause it really looks like he is so comfortable holding it. I can see the difference with how Daisy holding the saber.

Reylo's tug of war for the hilt, after 3rd viewing I had to hold back my laugh, cause omg, I just realized I've seen this kinda scene so many times in Chinese wuxia dramas, looool ... I just couldn't believe I get to see it in a Star Wars movie! Normally, the two equal fighters would fall back and then throw up blood from their mouths for using too much of their inner energy, and then they will get bad inner injury. Haha too bad TLJ is a PG13 movie, so we can see no blood.

I will not say much about the thigh grabbing, lol, so many Reylos have analyzed it in details. I just wanna say that it has never happened in any Asian martial arts movies I ever saw, so it must be very original idea from Rian, I believe haha.


Rey vs Luke

Rey fight with a staff.... squeeee.... gosh, please let Rey fight with the staff alwaysss! She is born to fight with a staff not a lightsaber. I dunno know why, Daisy looks so much better with the staff. Mark did great too, I wish I can see Mark's rehearsal for this. It was a very short scene, but the attacking and blocking are nice to look at.


Kylo vs Luke

I love that it's just like the classic OT fight scenes with a little of variation. And I see Luke's stunt double for a second there, when Luke had to make a complex move avoiding Kylo's saber. Too bad the CGI background looks so fake in this scene?


Finn vs Phasma

It's just like a fight scene in any other Hollywood movie. I see nothing special about it. Kinda disappointed cause Gwen looks soooo dangerous in the fight rehearsal clip.
@shii405

Wow. Claps Claps Claps I don't understand anything about martial arts. Your explanation was simply fantastic. Now I seem to have understood too :-)

Relatively to Rey's scene when she takes Kylo's leg. I found 2 explanations. A symbolic one. They are yin and yang. She stretch his hand to show the white point in black. Kilo bends to represent the yin and yang circle. It is the symbol of space panda.
Another explanation, more Reylo. She keeps him because she needs him. She is less expert and draws from him energy, experience and strength. As if they were one person. Being connected to her, she feels her need and bends over to support her move. I had the feeling that even if separated they fight like one, they think like one.
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Re: Fight Scenes Analysis

Post by MrsWindu on Tue 06 Mar 2018, 3:50 pm

So I’ve watched this HD version a dozen times - although it’s only the last 1 minute of the fight it sure was good to watch in HD. It almost looks like Ben takes a meditative breath before taking in three of the PG guards. And does Rey look to Ben for reassurance or he gives her the idea for that trick of letting go lightsaber trick through their bond ? And until now I had not worked out how Ben let go of his saber before the neck hold



I still giggle to myself when I see this shot and all the symbolism. Well heck the whole fight is symbolic

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Re: Fight Scenes Analysis

Post by ZioRen on Tue 06 Mar 2018, 4:02 pm

@MrsWindu wrote:So I’ve watched this HD version a dozen times - although it’s only the last 1 minute of the fight it sure was good to watch in HD. It almost looks like Ben takes a meditative breath before taking in three of the PG guards. And does Rey look to Ben for reassurance or he gives her the idea for that trick of letting go lightsaber trick through their bond ? And until now I had not worked out how Ben let go of his saber before the neck hold



I still giggle to myself when I see this shot and all the symbolism. Well heck the whole fight is symbolic

@MrsWindu

It still sounds like Kylo says her name when he's being held by the neck and Rey is still struggling with her guard. Almost like he's telling her something, because right after that she seems to have a revelation and does her whole dropping the saber move.

And I think I said this before, but this stood out to me when I first heard it because it reminds me so much of back in the Starkiller fight when Kylo was laid out in the snow and struggling to get up. I remember people swearing up and down that he said "Rey" when they listened closely to the audio and now I'm thinking he did, because it sounded just like what I heard in this video! I'm not sure if that matters to anything at all but it's kind of cool in retrospect. Maybe it suggests Kylo trying to connect with her through the Force?

Also, their grunting in general. Which they seemed to have taken pains to make sure you clearly hear over all the sound effects and music. ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
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Re: Fight Scenes Analysis

Post by MrsWindu on Tue 06 Mar 2018, 4:17 pm

@ZioRen

Yes !!! I can hear him say that - I’d never ‘heard’ it properly till you mentioned that. Although try as I might I couldn’t make much out during that part on SKB. Well yes as for their grunting I can hear very loud and clear Laughing
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Re: Fight Scenes Analysis

Post by Teo oswald on Tue 06 Mar 2018, 5:53 pm

@Cowgirlsamurai wrote:Sexual Symbolism in the Praetorian Guard Fight Scene

I can’t unsee the Resistance transports as sperm Shocked
@Cowgirlsamurai


I missed it
I was reading your sentence while I was drinking water, I spat it all out of laughter , my god I can't bealive it WinksD
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Re: Fight Scenes Analysis

Post by Darth Dementor on Wed 14 Mar 2018, 10:46 am

Video explaining why Kylo feared and respected the Praetorian guards.  It breaks down his thought process (taken from the novelization) when he confronted Snoke the first time and how he knew they would defeat him if he fought them by himself.


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