The Last Jedi and the Shakespeare Novelizations

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Re: The Last Jedi and the Shakespeare Novelizations

Post by SoloSideCousin on Thu 29 Mar 2018, 5:12 pm

@ZioRen wrote:Ugh, ew. It still creeps me out to know that the novelization's scene with Snoke wiping away Kylo's tear seems to have been originally filmed. I guess it must have been something Fry pulled from Rian's script.





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Also look at Adam's slumped shoulders there. He's kneeling like a kid would with some abusive authority figure, and not like the adult soldier that he actually is.
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Re: The Last Jedi and the Shakespeare Novelizations

Post by Teo oswald on Thu 29 Mar 2018, 5:20 pm

@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@ZioRen wrote:Ugh, ew. It still creeps me out to know that the novelization's scene with Snoke wiping away Kylo's tear seems to have been originally filmed. I guess it must have been something Fry pulled from Rian's script.





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@ZioRen

Also look at Adam's slumped shoulders there. He's kneeling like a kid would with some abusive authority figure, and not like the adult soldier that he actually is.
@SoloSideCousin

Snoke !!!! only Rey can wipe Ben's tears !!!! Mad
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Re: The Last Jedi and the Shakespeare Novelizations

Post by Riri on Fri 30 Mar 2018, 5:24 am

Has anyone read the ROTS novelisation? I came across this quote, its so beautiful and 100% Reylo.

& some people still believe Ben can't be redeemed when the clues have been there since the beginning.


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Re: The Last Jedi and the Shakespeare Novelizations

Post by snufkin on Fri 30 Mar 2018, 6:53 pm

Picking my way through both books and one thing that I laughed over is the mention in Rey's mission to the Supremacy is that the PoV of the starfighters who find her escape pod allows two details to slip in. The copious reports written about the destruction of SKB being blamed on underperformance by their starfighters means:

1. Hux the technocrat wrote that report and

2. They must've planned something along with the Phasma book and the deleted scene to show that Phasma was always willing to throw others under the bus to cover her a**. But obvs that full plot point got scrapped during the editing process.

At least from the book showing various PoVs for the First Order officers, despite Poe's shenanigans, you get the impression as a reader that the FO is more at risk for factions splintering it apart. And that the key takeaway is that they would've perished w/out Snoke's help, but that he managed to outwit and eliminate all of its key central leaders and now that he's dead, there's going to be more in-fighting and power struggles.
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Re: The Last Jedi and the Shakespeare Novelizations

Post by Night Huntress on Sat 31 Mar 2018, 12:36 am

@snufkin

Yes, absolutely - and that's why I still hope the FO will split into factions and destroy itself from the inside rather than one boring Rebels against FO space battle fight...I mean we still can have those- but a combination of the two would be great imo.
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Re: The Last Jedi and the Shakespeare Novelizations

Post by Teo oswald on Sat 31 Mar 2018, 4:54 am

@Night Huntress wrote:@snufkin

Yes, absolutely - and that's why I still hope the FO will split into factions and destroy itself from the inside rather than one boring Rebels against FO space battle fight...I mean we still can have those- but a combination of the two would be great imo.
@"Cacciatrice notturna"

I fully agree but I would add
destroy FO from inside and outside
Ben and Rey, one inside and one outside Smile
  but sometimes, only sometimes do I think that not all of the first order are bad, but simply influenced Smile
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Re: The Last Jedi and the Shakespeare Novelizations

Post by Apriljandy on Sat 31 Mar 2018, 8:52 am

I sincerely want to see a Rey vs The Resistance/Republic and a Ben vs The First Order... ending with a Ben and Rey against the world

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Re: The Last Jedi and the Shakespeare Novelizations

Post by snufkin on Sat 31 Mar 2018, 11:46 am

@Night Huntress I know we all got tricked before hoping that the ancillary information from Bloodline and the Empire's End novels would be touched on in TLJ. But it's hard in this situation, having it there in writing that there was a contingency plan for the Imperials to re-group in the Unknown Reaches. But they were done in by the elements, the various egos/rivalries of their leaders, and only survived b/c of Snoke's intervention. And his agenda was no different than DJ's to take advantage of the situation for self-promotion/advancement. That information, plus the PoVs for Peavey and Hux, it's at least that you have a contrast of Snoke versus Leia/Holdo of what it really takes to lead people and plan for the future.

I do find it curious that they have minimal PoV for Kylo, though my understanding is that the author had to do that no knowing what the plan is for IX. Wouldn't you love to hear his honest opinion about trying to balance that when he came in while CT was still doing IX and then his story got scrapped, another writer came in, and then they cleaned the slate to bring back JJ? Must've been stressful so no wonder he left out all but a minimum PoV for that character.
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Re: The Last Jedi and the Shakespeare Novelizations

Post by lauvamp on Sun 01 Apr 2018, 6:35 am

I found these 2 interesting analysis, I love seeing male Reylo supporters around!  cheers  I love you



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Re: The Last Jedi and the Shakespeare Novelizations

Post by Riri on Tue 03 Apr 2018, 4:39 pm

Star Wars has an article about the novel.

http://www.starwars.com/news/7-reasons-why-the-last-jedi-novelization-is-essential

"While Rey journeys into the cave under the island, Luke searches the island for her — to tell her she was right, and that he’s going to join her, only to find her in her hut, touching hands with Kylo Ren. After his fight with Rey, he bares the full story of the night he went to Ben Solo, and she offers him the lightsaber one last time, but Luke doesn’t accept it. Not because he doesn’t want to go help the Resistance, but because her mission is now to turn Kylo Ren, not to fight him."

"While Star Wars is about action and good versus evil, the novel also includes other vital ingredients that make a great Star Wars story, like humor, romance, and just plain cool things"

"Through their interactions, we learn a lot about Rose’s reassessment of Finn from the hero who was fleeing the Resistance as a coward to a man completely devoted to Rey, to someone she loved and felt that she needed to watch over (and eventually save"

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Re: The Last Jedi and the Shakespeare Novelizations

Post by californiagirl on Tue 03 Apr 2018, 5:26 pm

@Riri wrote:Star Wars has an article about the novel.

http://www.starwars.com/news/7-reasons-why-the-last-jedi-novelization-is-essential

"While Rey journeys into the cave under the island, Luke searches the island for her — to tell her she was right, and that he’s going to join her, only to find her in her hut, touching hands with Kylo Ren. After his fight with Rey, he bares the full story of the night he went to Ben Solo, and she offers him the lightsaber one last time, but Luke doesn’t accept it. Not because he doesn’t want to go help the Resistance, but because her mission is now to turn Kylo Ren, not to fight him."

"While Star Wars is about action and good versus evil, the novel also includes other vital ingredients that make a great Star Wars story, like humor, romance, and just plain cool things"

"Through their interactions, we learn a lot about Rose’s reassessment of Finn from the hero who was fleeing the Resistance as a coward to a man completely devoted to Rey, to someone she loved and felt that she needed to watch over (and eventually save"
@Riri

SW isn't just about spaceships and lightsabers and explosions???? Or killing everyone we see as a bad guy? Sometimes they can be saved?? There's romance??? Say what????
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Re: The Last Jedi and the Shakespeare Novelizations

Post by Teo oswald on Tue 03 Apr 2018, 5:31 pm

Ben Solo is their only hope
If Rey manages to shake him deep Ben will destroy the first order from inside and Rey with resistance from the outside. Ben is the key to bringing balance to the galaxy, there's no need to kill each other. Rey knows, Rose knows
it takes a woman to make understand this to a man Smile
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Re: The Last Jedi and the Shakespeare Novelizations

Post by Riri on Mon 09 Apr 2018, 10:49 am

Fry on Kylo Smile


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Re: The Last Jedi and the Shakespeare Novelizations

Post by snufkin on Mon 09 Apr 2018, 11:00 pm

I checked out the Art of TLJ book from my library over the weekend and there's a lot of really interesting info in the notes. They acknowledge that some details were omitted from TFA's art book about Han's death and Luke's exile to avoid spoilers. But those two points support one of the central themes, about acting versus serving the will of the Force. It'd be easier if I did screenshots, except that I don't want to use my precious data (docked to my phone right now) and more important, we've had enough lurkers swipe screenshots from here and b/c it's a book somebody took time to write, I'd rather summarize and people can go read the book themselves.

+ The text doesn't really hint towards anything about Rey Having a Hidden History. "In spite of her youth, Rey is ultimately defined by loss - abandonment by her family on the backwater planet of Jakku, forcing her to shoulder burdens beyond her youth. Rey's journey [first] leads her to a connection with an odd little droid, BB-8, who leads her to Finn, Han Solo, and Leia Organa. Through these companions and her growing connection to the Force, Rey seeks to heal the hole in her heart through the connectedness that comes with family."   Her journey (and her greatest fear and wish) is about finding her place in the larger world, both her identity and the people she belongs with,  because it's not going to be with her biological family. And that line points to connection with a certain family, who likely aren't her biological relatives.

+ While the filmmakers loved the chemistry shown between Daisy and John for Rey and Finn, they felt that they needed to be split up for the characters to mature and evolve, especially on Finn's side. Rian praises how a central part of why Finn acts is because of his feelings for other characters, especially his friendship/protectiveness of Rey. But that keeping him in that position wasn't good for the character, hence separating them and teaming him up with Rose.

+ Also very politely acknowledges that Finn and Poe being awesome bros together (aka The Beautiful Friendship Gang) is boring af. Versus a character like Rose, who pushes him and forces him out of the comfort zone he's fallen into. Finn also learns through their plotline that "don't join," or running away to the Outer Rim, isn't something he can keep doing.

+ the introductory passage to the book is titled, "The Death of Han Solo and the Rebirth of the Jedi." One of the key players, Rick Carter, sees Obi-Wans death as deliberately placing himself at the Will of the Force (or in God's hands, if you will) b/c by sacrificing himself in a manner Luke bears witness to brings father and son together and "hastens the end of Darth Vader." Which skip ahead to the next page, the moment in RotJ when Luke throws down his weapon in a similar sacrificial moment - witnessing this act inspires his father to finally act and return to the Light by saving his son. Couple paragraphs down, they see the same moment happening with Han confronts Ben, where Chewie, Finn, and Rey witness his sacrifice and that moment in turn leads to the defeat (dismantling) of Kylo Ren at SKB. No coincidence that's the "my son is alive" moment. Money quote, "by virtue of Han Solo's martyrdom, the Force acts through Rey and Kylo Ren is defeated." tl:dr - Han sacrifices himself and having Rey present at that moment stops Ben's further slide into Darkness. And quote mentioned here before, "the death of Han Solo will reverberate throughout the two remaining films in the sequel trilogy."

+ Point of the above discussion with the various sacrifices depicted in the OT and the new films (I suspect it also ties in with Chirrut's "All is as the Force wills it" mantra) and a discussion about the DS as being driven by fear of loss and wanting to control for Ben and grandpa, further tied in with the other big question of the film, "What makes a hero?" Why is Luke not coming to his sister's aid and how does that tie in with the very important lesson Poe Dameron learns about how "the solution is sometimes sacrifice and surrender, not charging in recklessly" (tell that to the people who got killed because of Poe's dumbassery).

+ "So who is Luke Skywalker? The Last Jedi provides us with an answer to Rick Carter's 6 year old question. It may not be the answer we seek, but it will be the truest one for our modern mythic hero. Instead of asking 'Who is Luke Skywalker?' perhaps we should be asking, 'What makes a hero?' The answer to that question may be embodied by a self-described nobody from Jakku."

+ Discussed here before that Rey's escape coffin on her mission to the Supremacy was designed to look like a coffin, partially as a reference to CS Lewis' Perelandria. With the detail about the calligraphy on the escape pod of "Property of Han Solo, please return" (his plea to Ben was that he wanted his son to come back), along with Ben's calligraphy set, this all seems like more than just Easter eggs. Also wondering if the escape pod might make an appearance in Solo.

+ Rose and Paige's pendants are described as being Yin and Yang, showing the deep emotional/familial connection between those two characters. Which seems to tie into the Space Bear/Yin and Yang theme shown between Dark and Light, the Force bonds between Ben and Rey and Luke and Leia, Balance, and 'we have them tied to a string.'
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Re: The Last Jedi and the Shakespeare Novelizations

Post by SoloSideCousin on Tue 10 Apr 2018, 12:00 am

@Riri wrote:Fry on Kylo Smile

@Riri

This is absolutely fantastic! Jason ... you had me at "anti-hero" Very Happy
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Re: The Last Jedi and the Shakespeare Novelizations

Post by SkyStar on Tue 10 Apr 2018, 12:29 am

@Riri wrote:Fry on Kylo Smile

@Riri

yesyesyesyes! This is good!

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Re: The Last Jedi and the Shakespeare Novelizations

Post by Teo oswald on Tue 10 Apr 2018, 1:41 am

anti-hero indeed Smile
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Re: The Last Jedi and the Shakespeare Novelizations

Post by nickandnora on Wed 11 Apr 2018, 4:17 pm

I'm not sure if this has been mentioned before, but I skimmed through the first few chapters of the TLJ novelization at the store the other day and saw something interesting in the chapter where Kylo is in Snoke's throneroom at the beginning. Kylo is thinking about his wounds, and he thinks about the one that Chewie gave him. He thinks to himself that it's a very serious wound and it would have been fatal if he hadn't used the Force to contain it (or something).

That's really, really interesting to me. I mentioned this months ago, but I do believe in that stomach wound we have a Chekhov's gun and the novelization kind of cements it; perhaps something will happen where Kylo is in a weakened state and whatever "spell" he has cast over the wound kind of comes undone and he ends up close to death because of it. Maybe this is what Rey has to save him from.

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Re: The Last Jedi and the Shakespeare Novelizations

Post by snufkin on Wed 11 Apr 2018, 10:07 pm

Forgot one more detail from the Art of book, the chapter about Leia is titled "The Unsinkable Leia Organa", nice shout out to the role Debbie Reynolds said she most identified with, The Unsinkable Molly Brown, and the song she sang from it, I Ain't Down Yet.

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Re: The Last Jedi and the Shakespeare Novelizations

Post by snufkin on Tue 17 Apr 2018, 11:25 am

My 3 week library loan is almost up for the Fry/Kogge novels and Art of book, so did one last speed read yesterday.

Finished a fast read of the Fry novel and one thing that I definitely noticed with the "being a hero versus being a leader" theme. the First Order is doomed. If Resistance 1.0 prior to decimation (thanks Poe) was a Cult of Personality, so is the First Order. Just a cult of multiple personalities, who all end up taking each other out. Fry makes a point of this by including exposition from Hux, Peavey, and Snoke's PoV sections. Imperial remnants retreated from Jakku to the Outer Rim/Unknown Regions, almost didn't survive (sounds like the Jamestown Colony), somehow Snoke became involved and helped them conquer the different planets in that region, while also taking out the existing leadership structure left over from Empires' End. And then at some point Hux takes out the last person, his father. But Hux is deluded in thinking he can be the best possible Supreme Leader because nobody respects him, especially officers like Peavey. Even without Ben taking out Snoke and then seizing power, it's going to be ugly on that side. Resistance? Eh, nearly everybody's dead and even if I think Poe's a s*** leader, they're obviously being set up as more cohesive. Though I still think Resistance 2.0 will be an underground/whisper network like Sanctuary in Logan's Run, the Human Project in Children of Men, and the Replicant Liberation Groups in Blade Runner/2049.

The Kogge Novel, when Luke blows up the hut he turns against Rey and there's a line about how she can't be trusted because she's "In League" with Kylo Ren! Which isn't in the Fry novel and certainly not in the movie other than Luke telling her to leave the island after he catches her in flagrante delicto with his nephew
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Re: The Last Jedi and the Shakespeare Novelizations

Post by ISeeAnIsland on Tue 17 Apr 2018, 12:03 pm

@snufkin wrote:My 3 week library loan is almost up for the Fry/Kogge novels and Art of book, so did one last speed read yesterday.

Finished a fast read of the Fry novel and one thing that I definitely noticed with the "being a hero versus being a leader" theme. the First Order is doomed. If Resistance 1.0 prior to decimation (thanks Poe) was a Cult of Personality, so is the First Order. Just a cult of multiple personalities, who all end up taking each other out. Fry makes a point of this by including exposition from Hux, Peavey, and Snoke's PoV sections. Imperial remnants retreated from Jakku to the Outer Rim/Unknown Regions, almost didn't survive (sounds like the Jamestown Colony), somehow Snoke became involved and helped them conquer the different planets in that region, while also taking out the existing leadership structure left over from Empires' End. And then at some point Hux takes out the last person, his father. But Hux is deluded in thinking he can be the best possible Supreme Leader because nobody respects him, especially officers like Peavey. Even without Ben taking out Snoke and then seizing power, it's going to be ugly on that side. Resistance? Eh, nearly everybody's dead and even if I think Poe's a s*** leader, they're obviously being set up as more cohesive. Though I still think Resistance 2.0 will be an underground/whisper network like Sanctuary in Logan's Run, the Human Project in Children of Men, and the Replicant Liberation Groups in Blade Runner/2049.

The Kogge Novel, when Luke blows up the hut he turns against Rey and there's a line about how she can't be trusted because she's "In League" with Kylo Ren! Which isn't in the Fry novel and certainly not in the movie other than Luke telling her to leave the island after he catches her in flagrante delicto with his nephew
@snufkin

FWIW, I feel like the Rebellion symbol in TLJ was set up to be like the mockingjay symbol from the Hunger Games series. So yeah, I still think Resistance 2.0 is going to be an underground/grass roots movement like you're saying.

And that's SUPER interesting about Luke in the Kogge novel. I wonder if that was reviewed by the storygroup (since Fry's novel apparently was this time)...because that could be some really interesting foreshadowing for when the Force bond blows up in Rey's face in IX.
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Re: The Last Jedi and the Shakespeare Novelizations

Post by Cowgirlsamurai on Tue 17 Apr 2018, 12:22 pm

I’m still not all the way through Legends of Luke, but these passages are interesting to me so far, in relation to TLJ... Have these already been brought up? I don’t remember seeing much discussion about this book, but I had a hard time keeping up here back in December.

Long:
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Re: The Last Jedi and the Shakespeare Novelizations

Post by snufkin on Tue 17 Apr 2018, 3:48 pm

@ISeeAnIsland "Giving people a symbol/hope to carry forward" was the whole point of Broom Boi (not "Rey will become a Jedi Kindergarten teacher with a classroom full of adorable lisping moppets in IX" per current fan conspiracy theory) as the ultimate legacy of Luke's return. And the Resistance is down to the size of a church choir after Poe's shenanigans, so they have to be an underground movement in IX. The point in TLJ is that Nu Rebels and Nu Empire both got obliterated. Especially because Fry makes a point of explaining that the Supremacy is the de facto capital and munitions operation for the First Order and Holdo just wiped it out. That's on par with Hux destroying Hosnian Prime.
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Re: The Last Jedi and the Shakespeare Novelizations

Post by Tex on Tue 17 Apr 2018, 4:57 pm

@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@ZioRen wrote:Ugh, ew. It still creeps me out to know that the novelization's scene with Snoke wiping away Kylo's tear seems to have been originally filmed. I guess it must have been something Fry pulled from Rian's script.





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Also look at Adam's slumped shoulders there. He's kneeling like a kid would with some abusive authority figure,  and not like the adult soldier that he actually  is.
@SoloSideCousin

Oh my lord, I had not seen this. It just gave me the heebee jeebees. Yuck, so creepy. It's one thing to read it in Fry's novelization, but to see it was filmed Shocked L-puke
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Re: The Last Jedi and the Shakespeare Novelizations

Post by LadyHa on Fri 20 Apr 2018, 10:47 am

@Lamiller1390 wrote:Okay so I just finished the audiobook novelization which was AMAZING and there were two parts of the book that really stood out to me towards the end. The scene that I am sure was cut from the movie where Rey is standing over an unconscious Kylo after the saber breaks and the ship is shredded from that Holdo Action.... and at the very end where she very clearly severs the tie with Kylo. The force bond... whatever.

So in the first scene where Rey has a little self-reflection after leaving the Supremecy and leaving Kylo on the ship.

"Rey had learned that the Force was not her instrument - that, in fact, it was the other way around. Just as Kylo was its instrument, despite his determination to bend it to his will. He would learn that one day, she sensed - the Force wasn't finished with him. ANd that meant that Kylo's life was not hers to take, whatever future she thought she saw ahead of him. Rey would wait, however difficult that would be to do as the First Order warship descended on Crait. She would wait, and the future would unfold as the Force willed."

So here it seems she's reached a higher level of understanding about the force, that she no longer needs to rely on the connection with Kylo to understand or use the force. She is now... one with the force. Something that seemed to happen during the throne room battle. She also seems to have a decent idea of it's future plans for Kylo and has resigned herself to be patient and wait.

This passage gave me the impression that she will wait for him to be ready to accept his role. Right now he's not ready but he will be at some point and she will be waiting for him. This also gave me the impression that waiting for him would be difficult for her... is that because of her feelings for him... or will it just be hard due to the fact that during that waiting period things might get worse before they get better...

In conjunction with that, we have that last scene.

"He stared at Rey. She stared back at him, her gaze level and unafraid. There was no hatred in her eyes, as there once had been. But there was no compassion, either. A moment later Rey severed the connection, leaving Kylo alone in the gloom with his father's dice resting in the palm of his upraised hand."
@Lamiller1390

I also listened to the audiobook. The narrator is an amazing mimic!  So entertaining.  Well, his Rose voice is a little silly-sounding to me, but I love how he intones all the other characters. I also like the insight into Rey's understanding of the Force after the Throne Room. It clarifies her actions a little -she now feels that both she and Kylo are instruments of the Force, not the other way around. I too interpreted those sections as Rey hasn't given up on Kylo; she just realizes that she can't "force" him to change for her.

Another part that gives me chills is when Rey & Finn embrace.  Actually, Rey "fell into Finn's arms, sobbing and laughing at the same time. And held him tight." Rey & Finn are like 90% platonic, but the audiobook makes it sound kind of sexy - Especially because the scene changes right away to hearing Kylo's light saber sound and his husky jealous voice: "Rey", Kylo said, speaking her name like it was poison. "Your chosen one. Chosen over me." H-beating
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