Is George Lucas the original Reylo?

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Is George Lucas the original Reylo?

Post by Gemlake on Fri 29 Dec 2017, 1:12 pm

Reylo is often referred to derogatively as "fan fiction" and a departure from the treatment conceived by George Lucas.  Although it is impossible to know for certain how the concept of Reylo developed, there is evidence suggesting that it evolved from George Lucas himself.  

Kathleen Kennedy and Pablo Hidalgo have always said that the trilogy incorporates ideas from Lucas.  Kennedy said in a 2015 interview that "There are certain things they retained . . . . We changed the order of a few things, let’s put it that way. We didn’t make some wholesale change." http://www.slashfilm.com/kathleen-kennedy-interview/  

When George Lucas asked JJ in 2015, "what happened to Darth Vader's grandchildren," JJ replies "you tell me, you made all this up".  We know that Lucas' ideas for the heros included having one of Vader's grandchildren be a female Jedi trained by Luke, and that Luke would be in exile.  But what about the villians?  There's never been a suggestion that Lucas had anything to do with Kylo Ren or Reylo.  But we do know that a minimum, he had the idea of a dark sider, under the control of a master, who would seduce and kill Jedis.  

Lucas wanted the sequel trilogy's villian to be Darth Talon.  See below. The shadowy figure behind her was meant to be her "puppeteer", an early version of Snoke.  Pablo Hidalgo has confirmed that Darth Talon and a version of Snoke came from Lucas.

 


There are storyboards in the Art of the Force Awakens book, labeled "seduction", which show Darth Talon seducing and then killing a Jedi padawan.   



We don't know what George planned for Darth Talon.  But Darth Talon's most notable story arc in the EU has her capturing Cade Skywalker, one of Luke's descendants, at the command of her "Master".  And as she attempts to lure him to the dark side, the two have a relationship, and it is implied that they sleep together.  He later escapes. It is possible that Darth Talon was meant to seduce one of the Skywalkers in the sequel trilogy.  

The female Darth Talon later became the male "Jedi Killer."  Concept art of the Jedi Killer shows him holding Rey.  See below.  It is interesting that the Art of the Force Awakens book does not include this image (it was leaked with other known images from the book).  Possibly because it is too suggestive of a certain Phantom of the Opera type of storyline.
 



In June of 2013, JJ confirmed to a French magazine that the trilogy would have a central romance and that the project was "different."  

The art book for the Last Jedi reveals that in August 2013,  the previously originless Jedi Killer became the son of Han and Leia.  Here is concept art for him. So even after the decision is made to make the Jedi Killer a Solo, he is still more monster than human:  




Then in December, 2013, according to the Art of the Force Awakens book, "JJ Abrams called a crucial meeting . . . to pitch the most recent version of the Episode VII story."  All the major studio figures were there, including Kathleen Kennedy, as well as the artistic team, including the visualists and John Williams.  I think it is at this meeting that JJ decided to make Reylo more of a fairy tale, with a prince and princess, rather than a monster/Phantom of the Opera type relationship.  
After the meeting, here is the new concept art for the "Jedi Killer".  It is unlike anything that preceeds it in the book (and there are over 40 different concepts drawn of the Jedi Killer).  The picture is captioned "Young Jedi Killer New Concept".




Meet your dark prince.  After the December meeting, several changes are also made to the sets, including the creation of Maz's Castle, where Kylo and Rey will first meet.  Previously the castle was for Princess Leia's team, and Exotic City was the location of Maz's bar.  As JJ explains, a castle is an important tool to set the stage for a fairy tale.

Reylo didn't appear out of thin air.  It was thoroughly planned and evolved from earlier concepts.   In my opinion, the concept of a dark side/light side relationship, involving one of the Skywalkers, likely came from Lucas himself.


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Re: Is George Lucas the original Reylo?

Post by Gemlake on Thu 04 Jan 2018, 6:19 pm

Holy sh#t, I was right!  lol

I said above that "Darth Talon was meant to seduce one of the Skywalkers in the sequel trilogy."  

Pablo Hidalgo confirmed this in a tweet yesterday, with the following statement:

"Skyler and Kira (and Kira wasn’t the first proposed name either; she had at least two others) became, after a fashion, Finn and Rey. The Jedi Killer morphed from Talon corrupting the son to becoming the son. Uber became Snoke. The starting point shifted. Yadda yada yada."

https://www.starwarsnewsnet.com/2018/01/pablo-hidalgo-sheds-more-light-on-george-lucass-influence-on-the-sequel-trilogy.html

See the link for more details.

Pablo confirms that George Lucas intended for a dark side/light side relationship in the ST.  Rather than the two trying to kill each other, Talon would "corrupt" or seduce him to the dark side.

JJ/Kasdan/Arndt then switched the female Talon concept to a male "Jedi Killer", with the female Solo as the new object.  See the above concept art.  I suspect that when the Jedi Killer later became a Solo, Rey became Random, likely because the idea of a nonfamilial, dark side/light side relationship had always been at the core of the ST.  So turning the dark side user to a Solo necessitated turning Rey random.

Of course, there is much more to learn about the making of Reylo.  But there is ample evidence that the origins of the idea came from George Lucas himself.  And thank you, JJ/Kasdan/Arndt, for morphing the Darth Talon/Skyler story into Kylo and Rey.  A much better story, in my opinion.


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Re: Is George Lucas the original Reylo?

Post by Gemlake on Thu 04 Jan 2018, 9:56 pm

Another issue is whether Pablo's tweets shed any light on Episode IX.
One way to view the issue is to ask what George intended for Skyler's fate. Would his sister have rescued him? Would he be redeemed? Or would his sister kill him? I don't know. But another way to view the issue is whether the dark side/light side relationship that was originally intended to lead the son to the dark side, would now lead him to return to the light? That would be a twist on George's original plans, while still staying true to his original concepts.

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Re: Is George Lucas the original Reylo?

Post by DeeBee on Thu 04 Jan 2018, 11:30 pm

Loving this really interesting thread Gemlake! Smile

In all this, my question would be: What did George Lucas intend 'the balance' to be?
-this is a question for Gemlake, but also for anyone who is interested in answering Smile I'm currently exploring this one and I don't have answers!

If balance is both the light and the dark united - and the Jedi and the Sith were both in a sense a corruption of the force -taking it to unbalanced extremes contrary to it's true nature (a combination of both dark and light), how did GL ultimately view balance playing out in the final three movies?
and then what would it mean for someone to be 'turned'?
Does anyone have information on this?

This may seem tangential to ep IX Reylo, but to me it isn't: if we can't understand balance- how can we conceive of the need to 'turn' someone? and of what could play out in any relationship - whether that be Darth Talon, Skyler.. Kylo.. Rey or anyone?
Seems the light = good and dark = evil paradigm is being challenged in TLJ and moving forward in IX.
Soooo I'm hoping others are pondering this too... and it's not just me overthinking things...
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Re: Is George Lucas the original Reylo?

Post by FrolickingFizzgig on Fri 05 Jan 2018, 6:59 am

Yes, I think a dark side/light side love story (first one-sided and corrupting, then reciprocated and transformational) was always intended to be a plot point or even the backbone of this trilogy. Perhaps, as you posit here, it originally surrounded Skylar and a female Sith, but as the narrative evolved the focus of the story and romance shifted to Kira/Rey (who was a Solo at first). I believe Jedi Killer's interest in legacy Kira was one-sided. Their dynamic likely revolved around Jedi Killer forming some kind of romantic fixation on Kira. However, Jedi Killer eventually became the legacy Skywalker of the trilogy and -- in time -- that forced further changes upon the narrative. One-sided Phantom of the Opera-style possessive romance doesn't work when your villain is also the last of Anakin's descendants. It was a very natural evolution... "what makes the best story"? "What can support three films?" A reciprocated romantic hero/villain dynamic between a young female Jedi finding her place in the Force and the last Skywalker. That's a Star Wars trilogy right there.

In the end we got the crazy week-long intervention of Ben Solo and Rey. The second they meet their separate warring factions go up in flames as the Force draws them together. Rian's narrative developments forced Rey and Kylo to the forefront of drama in the story, while there were many potential conflicts going into VIII. Rian outright eliminated the majority of them and focused everything on Supreme Leader Kylo and Last Jedi Rey, their secret communion and romantic feelings that develop regardless of their sides in the war and their Force affiliations.

In the end the ST is going to end up being even more of a love story than the Prequel Trilogy because rather than a means to an end, the romance is THE point, the healing element for Rey, Kylo and the galaxy as a whole.
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Re: Is George Lucas the original Reylo?

Post by Gemlake on Fri 05 Jan 2018, 9:38 am

@DeeBee That's a really good question.  What is the endgame here?  We keep getting hit over the head with yin yang references.  Does the balance come from the light and dark itself?  What does that mean for Kylo's arc?   

We know that the concept of dark/light duality was always an issue for the trilogy.  One of the first pieces of concept art, titled "Fire and Ice Concept" was this:  




The caption states that the lead designer, Rick Carter was "keen on bringing this concept of fire and ice together visually."  Of course, the picture is similar to the iconic picture of Kylo and Rey fighting  in the forest.  

I wouldn't be surprised if there is concept art for Rey and Kylo's lightsaber fight that grew directly from the "Fire and Ice" idea.  It's as if Kylo and Rey are fighting the light and dark in this picture, rather than each other.  Just as a single person would fight the impulses to light (Kylo) and dark (Rey).

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Re: Is George Lucas the original Reylo?

Post by Gemlake on Fri 05 Jan 2018, 9:48 am

@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:Yes, I think a dark side/light side love story (first one-sided and corrupting, then reciprocated and transformational) was always intended to be a plot point or even the backbone of this trilogy. Perhaps, as you posit here, it originally surrounded Skylar and a female Sith, but as the narrative evolved the focus of the story and romance shifted to Kira/Rey (who was a Solo at first). I believe Jedi Killer's interest in legacy Kira was one-sided. Their dynamic likely revolved around Jedi Killer forming some kind of romantic fixation on Kira. However, Jedi Killer eventually became the legacy Skywalker of the trilogy and -- in time -- that forced further changes upon the narrative. One-sided Phantom of the Opera-style possessive romance doesn't work when your villain is also the last of Anakin's descendants. It was a very natural evolution... "what makes the best story"? "What can support three films?" A reciprocated romantic hero/villain dynamic between a young female Jedi finding her place in the Force and the last Skywalker. That's a Star Wars trilogy right there.

In the end we got the crazy week-long intervention of Ben Solo and Rey. The second they meet their separate warring factions go up in flames as the Force draws them together. Rian's narrative developments forced Rey and Kylo to the forefront of drama in the story, while there were many potential conflicts going into VIII. Rian outright eliminated the majority of them and focused everything on Supreme Leader Kylo and Last Jedi Rey, their secret communion and romantic feelings that develop regardless of their sides in the war and their Force affiliations.

In the end the ST is going to end up being even more of a love story than the Prequel Trilogy because rather than a means to an end, the romance is THE point, the healing element for Rey, Kylo and the galaxy as a whole.
@FrolickingFizzgig

I agree with everything here. And if Reylo truly is the endgame, it will go down as one of the greatest mystery boxes of all time.

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Re: Is George Lucas the original Reylo?

Post by bashfulblueeyes3 on Fri 05 Jan 2018, 10:43 am

I think that maybe it is not turning fully to the darkside or the light side. I am wondering if it is acceptance. Kylo/Ben has to accept the light in him and realize the things he has done wrong, but that doesn't mean he lets go of the dark, he accepts both. Rey has to accept the dark in her and as well as the light.

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Re: Is George Lucas the original Reylo?

Post by MyOnlyHope on Fri 05 Jan 2018, 11:16 am

Love this topic! Something to consider is how the Kira character originally factored into everything. She was the main protagonist even back then, and yet she feels a little out of place from the central conflict surrounding Skyler, Darth Talon and Uber. Something interesting to note about the Lucas treatment is how young the main characters supposedly were, as in they were still children. My mind immediately goes to a story reminiscent of the Snow Queen - a young girl and boy, in this case likely the twin children of Han and Leia, close since birth, who find their world shattered when the boy is lost to a seductive enchantress. The girl sets out on a quest to save the boy. I think Lucas' story must've been something akin to this. Because of the bigger bad hovering behind Talon, it's also possible she herself wound up being painted in a sympathetic light and was bound for a redemption of some kind toward the end. Now in the original Snow Queen story the young girl and boy are childhood friends with a romantic element to their relationship, not siblings, but because Lucas' characters were also such young children, a brother and sister story would've worked just fine. Alter the ages, though, and the relationship between the brother and sister could've come across a little creepy and incesty lol.

I think we can see that many Snow Queen-esque elements still exist in the story today. The ST is still very much a fairytale focused on the connection between a light young woman and a dark young man under a spell. Ages were altered and the connection became one of romantic, spiritual and sexual tension. The central point remains breaking the spell on the Skywalker son. Darth Talon and the son were sort of melded into one character, which is exactly why Kylo Ren is such an amalgamation of contrasts. He is both the prince imprisoned by an enchantment and the enchanter/seducter/monster. He is the Snow Queen and the vulnerable boy with the shard of enchanted ice in his eye all in one. A second male lead in Finn was probably created to fill some of Skyler's other roles in the story. So in the end VII, VIII and IX are still very much about a girl helping the Skywalker son reject his abuser and true enemy, both in the forms of Snoke and himself, break the spell and embrace the light. Things were just flipped around and subverted in vastly more interesting ways from what was there initially.

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Re: Is George Lucas the original Reylo?

Post by Kylo Rey on Fri 05 Jan 2018, 12:27 pm

Fascinating thread! I've always loved reading the behind the scenes of the filmmaking process - I'm still salty that J.W. Rinzler's book chronicling the making of TFA was cancelled. Sad It does appear that many of the broad points of Lucas' outline were adhered to in the ST. Nothing that we've learned suggests that Luke was ever going to have children btw. I think it's likely that Skyler/Kira were going to be SkySolo twins that Luke was training at his academy and Darth Talon must have seduced Skyler to the dark side.

The Tweets of San Francisco: A QM Production (@pablohidalgo)
Skyler was the son in some versions. And as for how all that was gonna go down, that ain’t my story to tell.

They obviously merged Talon/Jedi Killer into one though. Looks like Snoke (Uber) was always present within the story and took on some of Talon's role too. It also explains why Lucas asked Abrams about Vader's grandchildren in the Vanity Fair video as there was originally going to be more than one Skywalker. Sounds a lot like Jacen/Jaina Solo from the EU. There was this tweet from Pablo that he has since deleted that I found interesting too:

The Tweets of San Francisco: A QM Production‏ @pablohidalgo
The son falling to the dark side was always in the mix. The movies just ended up having it already an established fact.

We know that once Michael Arndt left and JJ came on board, he had difficulty with the 'Luke issue' where they struggled to have him be a major part of TFA and not overpower the story. So they had him just appear at the end. It looks like the major changes to Lucas' outline were mostly altering the timeline. Kylo's turn was originally going to be near the end of TFA, unlike how he was later presented as already fallen to the dark side and Snoke's apprentice.

The Tweets of San Francisco: A QM Production (@pablohidalgo)
In a very general sense, the original idea of 7 started midway through what we now know as 8.

Kira's parentage was probably changed once Jedi Killer was turned into a Solo. Then she was changed into a scavenger from a remote planet and became 'Rey' as we know her. io9 also posted a timeline of TLJ:



The first real meeting concerning the ST (and spinoffs) was called in January 2013, and JJ's interview about a central romance that he wanted to approach differently was reported in June 2013. While the Jedi Killer would only became Han and Leia's son later in August, it's likely that a romance (more likely to be one-sided than reciprocated) with Kira (who was probably a Solo at that point) was established within that January -June timeframe.

It's also interesting to note how close JJ's pitch of the story was to the casting. JJ pitched the story (a nearly completed version) in December 2013, and the script was officially completed in January 2014. Casting began in August 2013 but only really began in earnest in January 2014. Adam was the first cast member to be announced through a Variety exclusive:

https://variety.com/2014/film/news/star-wars-villain-adam-driver-girls-1201121646/

Michael Fassbender and Hugo Weaving were also looked at for the role (and later Eddie Redmayne as we found out). Daisy was also cast in February and Oscar and John's deals weren't finalized until early April, just a few weeks before the whole cast was officially announced by the Star Wars website. So Daisy and Adam were the first two members to be cast.

Sorry to go off a long tangent but I find this whole timeline thing fascinating.
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Re: Is George Lucas the original Reylo?

Post by FrolickingFizzgig on Fri 05 Jan 2018, 2:13 pm

No, assuming Kylo lives he will absolutely not remain on the dark side. That's not how the Force functions in the SW universe. The dark side doesn't balance the light; rather, the Force in itself is balance and the dark side is a corruption. There has yet to be any kind of update to the lore so as of right now I can't not believe this is will always be the case. It's how Lucas envisioned it and nothing has changed.

It's very true that the dark side is represented by human emotions like anger, fear and passion, but ultimately the point is to accept that those emotions are part of the mortal experience without letting them rule you. That doesn't mean you can take advantage of the dark side and the Force by becoming one with both or something. That's not how it works. Rather, one must achieve inner balance without the dark side because the dark side is in many ways the "easy" way out.

Rey and Kylo balance each other like warm and cold, day and night, peace and violence -- natural balance like the kind found in the Force itself. They do not balance each other because they are on the light or dark sides respectively.

The dark side takes on yet another meaning in the ST: the worst parts of adolescence. It's something Kylo and Rey have to overcome in order to grow up. Kylo will absolutely have to leave it behind (if he lives).
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Re: Is George Lucas the original Reylo?

Post by Gemlake on Fri 05 Jan 2018, 2:16 pm

@MyOnlyHope wrote:Love this topic! Something to consider is how the Kira character originally factored into everything. She was the main protagonist even back then, and yet she feels a little out of place from the central conflict surrounding Skyler, Darth Talon and Uber. Something interesting to note about the Lucas treatment is how young the main characters supposedly were, as in they were still children. My mind immediately goes to a story reminiscent of the Snow Queen - a young girl and boy, in this case likely the twin children of Han and Leia, close since birth, who find their world shattered when the boy is lost to a seductive enchantress. The girl sets out on a quest to save the boy. I think Lucas' story must've been something akin to this. Because of the bigger bad hovering behind Talon, it's also possible she herself wound up being painted in a sympathetic light and was bound for a redemption of some kind toward the end. Now in the original Snow Queen story the young girl and boy are childhood friends with a romantic element to their relationship, not siblings, but because Lucas' characters were also such young children, a brother and sister story would've worked just fine. Alter the ages, though, and the relationship between the brother and sister could've come across a little creepy and incesty lol.

I think we can see that many Snow Queen-esque elements still exist in the story today. The ST is still very much a fairytale focused on the connection between a light young woman and a dark young man under a spell. Ages were altered and the connection became one of romantic, spiritual and sexual tension. The central point remains breaking the spell on the Skywalker son. Darth Talon and the son were sort of melded into one character, which is exactly why Kylo Ren is such an amalgamation of contrasts. He is both the prince imprisoned by an enchantment and the enchanter/seducter/monster. He is the Snow Queen and the vulnerable boy with the shard of enchanted ice in his eye all in one. A second male lead in Finn was probably created to fill some of Skyler's other roles in the story. So in the end VII, VIII and IX are still very much about a girl helping the Skywalker son reject his abuser and true enemy, both in the forms of Snoke and himself, break the spell and embrace the light. Things were just flipped around and subverted in vastly more interesting ways from what was there initially.

@MyOnlyHope
I love this, especially the bolded part about Kylo's roles.  That's why the initial dark prince concept art doesn't work.  It fails to incorporate his role as the villian/monster.  JJ's solution of having Kylo masked and then taking it off to reveal the prince underneath is brilliant.

As for Finn, his role in all of this is especially intriguing.  He originally is Skylar, the seduced Solo son and a centerpiece to the trilogy.  He then morphs into Sam the deserting storm trooper, and possible romantic backup for Kira's Phantom of the Opera style relationship with the Jedi Killer.  Once the Jedi Killer becomes Han and Leia's son, Finn is no longer needed for any romantic or familial purposes.  He becomes Kira's friend only, his arc as a deserting storm trooper is severly truncated, and his time with Kira cut short.  Finn's fans are always frustrated by his storyline, but it really is the result of the evolving roles of the villian.

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Re: Is George Lucas the original Reylo?

Post by DeeBee on Fri 05 Jan 2018, 4:42 pm

@Gemlake wrote:@DeeBee That's a really good question.  What is the endgame here?  We keep getting hit over the head with yin yang references.  Does the balance come from the light and dark itself?  What does that mean for Kylo's arc?   

We know that the concept of dark/light duality was always an issue for the trilogy.  One of the first pieces of concept art, titled "Fire and Ice Concept" was this:  




The caption states that the lead designer, Rick Carter was "keen on bringing this concept of fire and ice together visually."  Of course, the picture is similar to the iconic picture of Kylo and Rey fighting  in the forest.  

I wouldn't be surprised if there is concept art for Rey and Kylo's lightsaber fight that grew directly from the "Fire and Ice" idea.  It's as if Kylo and Rey are fighting the light and dark in this picture, rather than each other.  Just as a single person would fight the impulses to light (Kylo) and dark (Rey).  
@Gemlake

Very interesting as always Gemlake! Smile
A fire and ice conceptualisation of balance does hint at a moving away from the good and evil conceptualisation of balance - fire nor ice are good or evil in and of themselves.

Interesting, if the SKB lightsaber battle symbolises them together grappling between light and dark - the significance of Kylo's light saber being extinguished in said moment has much broader significance! Smile
[I need to find a thread on balance or start one so I don't hijack this awesome thread..  Wink ]
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Re: Is George Lucas the original Reylo?

Post by shii405 on Fri 05 Jan 2018, 4:58 pm

This whole thread reminds me of Carrie saying the next SW movie will have sex scene between the heroine and the villain or something like that? lol! Didn't Carrie say that back in the 80s? So George might have talked about this concept to Carrie since long ago. Anyone have the exact quote of what Carrie said or is there any video of that?
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Re: Is George Lucas the original Reylo?

Post by snufkin on Fri 05 Jan 2018, 5:31 pm

@shii405 - Ha, that was me! I grew up with much older teenage siblings who had piles of Rolling Stone magazine lying around the house. The ST press coverage by Vanity Fair and Entertainment Weekly is terrible compared to what Rolling Stone did for the OT. Despite his counterculture hippie Buddhist trappings, George Lucas is still very much a small town Methodist at heart in his morality (sex was safely off screen in the PT and only after marriage and for baby making). Carrie OTOH, it was never hard for me as a child to imagine that Han and Leia screwed each other's brains out once they arrived at Bespin and had some alone time thanks to the quarters Lando put them up in. The quote I've mentioned before is from the Rolling Stone interview she did for Empire Strikes Back:

Carrie Fisher wrote:The talk shifts to Leia's romance with Han Solo in Empire, and Carrie slyly speculates that "if she had her wits about her, she would have fallen for the big, strong Wookie. She's not that experienced, but because she's a princess, she would have some kind of problem with whoever she dated. Like, 'She can't marry out of her solar system' or something."

Her notion of an X-rated sequel to Empire makes her howl with laughter.

"Nude scenes with the robots!" she envisions. "They could do anything. And Darth Vader having an affair, making the princess do awful, kinky things. Then afterward, you could shoot a scene where you see her sleeping contently and have him lying there, smoking a cigarette."

She also joked frequently about Star Wars porn, including around the timeline when she had signed on with JJ to do TFA. And I'm pretty sure given their relationship and one his responses to her "Did I do Princess Leia?" line, Craig Ferguson had something going on with her for awhile



"I wanted to bring you a Star Wars porn. There is such a thing! And you can just imagine what the Darkside is. And the Force, it's so different! ANd when the Force is with you, you really feel it. And you need lubricant."
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Re: Is George Lucas the original Reylo?

Post by DeeBee on Fri 05 Jan 2018, 6:13 pm

@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:No, assuming Kylo lives he will absolutely not remain on the dark side. That's not how the Force functions in the SW universe. The dark side doesn't balance the light; rather, the Force in itself is balance and the dark side is a corruption. There has yet to be any kind of update to the lore so as of right now I can't not believe this is will always be the case. It's how Lucas envisioned it and nothing has changed.

It's very true that the dark side is represented by human emotions like anger, fear and passion, but ultimately the point is to accept that those emotions are part of the mortal experience without letting them rule you. That doesn't mean you can take advantage of the dark side and the Force by becoming one with both or something. That's not how it works. Rather, one must achieve inner balance without the dark side because the dark side is in many ways the "easy" way out.

Rey and Kylo balance each other like warm and cold, day and night, peace and violence -- natural balance like the kind found in the Force itself. They do not balance each other because they are on the light or dark sides respectively.

The dark side takes on yet another meaning in the ST: the worst parts of adolescence. It's something Kylo and Rey have to overcome in order to grow up. Kylo will absolutely have to leave it behind (if he lives).
@FrolickingFizzgig

Hiya FrolickingFizzgig, thanks for sharing your thoughts on balance.
I've started a thread related to the balance - maybe we could continue this over there? Would you like to copy these comments over? I'd love to reply to you but was wanting to avoid hijacking Gemlake's thread :-)
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Re: Is George Lucas the original Reylo?

Post by rawpowah on Fri 05 Jan 2018, 8:53 pm

P O E T R Y
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Re: Is George Lucas the original Reylo?

Post by MyOnlyHope on Fri 05 Jan 2018, 10:43 pm

https://www.starwarsnewsnet.com/2018/01/pablo-hidalgo-sheds-more-light-on-george-lucass-influence-on-the-sequel-trilogy.html

Nothing super surprising here -- we've been discussing how the character of Kylo Ren resulted from the natural evolution of Lucas's "seduced to the dark side" Solo/Skywalker son since 2016 -- but still interesting to start seeing some light shed on the aspects of the ST that were inspired by what Lucas turned in. Han and Leia's son was always seduced to the dark side. There was always a temple massacre, Luke always went into exile, a female Force user was always the one who helped get him back into the fight, and the Solo son always killed his father. Interesting to note that all of this was supposedly a part of the VII treatment specifically.

I would say it's likely that one of the major reasons Lucas' brother and sister story was rejected right from the beginning was because it was just too similar to the EU storyline about Jacen and Jaina Solo. Despite popular fanboy belief/incredibly flawed logic, Disney was never going to scrap the EU just to retell the EU. Those stories will always exist for those who want to read them, but obviously LF was more interested in telling something untold in their new trilogy.

So the brother-sister thing didn't work. The Kira Solo/machine monster Jedi Killer one-sided infatuation that Arndt was playing around with also wasn't working considering the trouble he was having with his script. Finally, the best idea -- shifting the only legacy status to the villain thus placing all the stakes on that one character and refashioning Lucas' original idea of the Solo son being seduced to the dark side by a predator -- came along. By natural extension, Kira became unrelated and the concept of a reciprocated, transformational romance between a female Force user and the fallen Skywalker who would return to the light over three movies was born. The central dynamic that could support three movies and give purpose to the entire story was found. The rough overall plan for the ST must've fallen so easily into place from there because a transformational love story between two people with a mysterious connection on opposing sides of a great war is inspiring -- truly a writer's dream. Other good ideas like getting Luke out of the picture also helped move the creative process along. From what I remember J.J. and Kasdan had their first script draft for VII finished in a matter of weeks. Clearly a big different from the earlier writers who were obviously struggling with much less inspiring character dynamics and concepts.

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Re: Is George Lucas the original Reylo?

Post by MyOnlyHope on Fri 05 Jan 2018, 10:43 pm

DP

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Re: Is George Lucas the original Reylo?

Post by Kessel on Sat 06 Jan 2018, 10:34 am

@MyOnlyHope - yes, the way you describe it makes sense.

I believe there is likely some kind of general outline for the ST and basic trajectories for the characters, even if there's freedom in developing the journey and plot.

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Re: Is George Lucas the original Reylo?

Post by Gemlake on Sun 07 Jan 2018, 1:04 pm

@MyOnlyHope  "Because of the bigger bad hovering behind Talon, it's also possible she herself wound up being painted in a sympathetic light and was bound for a redemption of some kind toward the end"

This is a good point.  The figure behind Talon was called Uber and labelled Talon's "puppeteer".  In the EU, it is Talon's Master who orders her to capture Cade Skywalker and train him in the ways of the dark side, just as Snoke ordered Kylo to bring him Rey. We don't know exactly what George planned for Talon and Skylar.  But Talon's EU relationship with Cade was, from what I can gather, a two way relationship between characters forced together by an outside source.
Uber disappears from the concept art during the Jedi Killer phase, returning as Snoke only after JJ's December, 2013 meeting.  The Jedi Killer apparently didn't need any controlling master.  He seemed to be more of a Vader lite/monster type of villian.

In this sense, Reylo is not only based on George Lucas' original ideas, it actually revised the "Jedi Killer" storyline to more closely approximate those ideas.  With Reylo, the idea of a Skywalker son falling to the dark side returns.  The idea of an evil master returns as Snoke.  The one sided, dark side/light side relationship shifts back to a more complicated two way dynamic.  And, possibly, the villian's redemption arc returns.

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Re: Is George Lucas the original Reylo?

Post by MyOnlyHope on Sun 07 Jan 2018, 5:39 pm

So earlier today I got to thinking about how maybe Lucas' Kira never was related to any known characters. I could be mistaken, but I vaguely remember Pablo tweeting out something about how Lucas' female protagonist's background never changed and was the direct inspiration for Rey (?). As in maybe Kira/Rey always was a nobody orphan and the Lucas treatment involved something of a twisted love triangle between her, the fallen Skywalker/Solo son, and a dark side seductress. Of course the love story wouldn't have been a part of VII because the protagonists were meant to be young kids who would grow older with each movie, but it's possible that something pretty much exactly like Reylo was the backbone of what Lucas handed Disney (truly making him the original Reylo lol). I'm sure his story still included multiple Vader grandkids since he said "grandchildren" that one time, but there's really no proof that one of those grandchildren was ever Kira. There's lots of proof that Skyler was related (we know quite a bit about him), but Kira remains pretty mysterious to this day. It's also possible that Lucas wasn't dead set on anything (we know how often he changes his mind about like... anything), so maybe he was bouncing around between making Kira and Skyler the legacy (Pablo even said Skyler was related in some versions, which obviously implies that there were versions where he was not).
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Re: Is George Lucas the original Reylo?

Post by vaderito on Sun 07 Jan 2018, 5:55 pm

Kira and Jedi Killer were never related to each other, that much is certain. So they may have been toying with the related Kira idea and then ended up with related Jedi Killer, but there's no evidence that they were related to each other. It seems that there was always going to be only 1 legacy character and that became Jedi Killer.
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Re: Is George Lucas the original Reylo?

Post by FrolickingFizzgig on Sun 07 Jan 2018, 6:06 pm

@vaderito wrote:Kira and Jedi Killer were never related to each other, that much is certain. So they may have been toying with the related Kira idea and then ended up with related Jedi Killer, but there's no evidence that they were related to each other. It seems that there was always going to be only 1 legacy character and that became Jedi Killer.
@vaderito
I think Lucas confirmed in a roundabout fashion that there were once "Vader grandchildren" (plural). I can imagine that there may have been a brother Solo and a sister Solo, but there was also an unrelated heroine/main character around whom the story unfolded.

There were rumours that Lucas' treatment involved two female characters. That served to stoke the flames of the Rey Kenobi fire for a long time, but with TLJ and the fact that Rey's background may have actually come from Lucas it's obvious now that there was always a "nobody" heroine. Perhaps, like in The Snow Queen, she and Solo siblings were childhood friends and Padawans training under Luke. The Solo brother would be seduced to the dark side by a seductress and the heroine and Solo sister would take it upon themselves to break the spell. The story would progress from there to revolve around a dark/light love triangle between Darth Talon, the Solo son and the heroine.

It actually sounds like a pretty good story, assuming there's any validity to my theorizing. Certainly a hell of a lot better than the Jacen/Jaina rehash many Lucas lovers seem to think Lucas turned in.
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Re: Is George Lucas the original Reylo?

Post by Gemlake on Sun 07 Jan 2018, 6:49 pm

I think Kira was likely related at some point during preproduction.  The April 2013 entry in TFA's art book explains that Kira was "cast as a scavenger on the junk planet. An alien junk dealer was introduced into the mix, but Kira initially works in a used car lot of sorts for an elderly father figure, a former Republic pilot. Watching spaceships coming and going all day long, Kira daydreams of leaving her dusty backwater planet. A mothballed Millennium Falcon is among the ships on the lot." 
I think at this point, Kira was likely a Solo.  Her background sounds like what you would expect if Han or Leia left her on Jakku to hide her from the Jedi Killer.  She has a caretaker looking over her who was attached to the Republic.  Her life is comfortable and stable.  She dreams of leaving the planet for adventure, similar to Luke, rather than counting the days until her family returns. The switch to Rey's more desolate existence happened much later, only a few months prior to filming.

Rey's home was developed in March 2014. One of the designers explained that they "decided to build the outpost in Abu Dhabi at the end of the mangrove swamp--the only place we could find that had a clear horizon, where it was desolate, flat as a pancake. JJ wanted the location to be a really unappealing place for her to exist. Kira's life is just miserable, and this miserable place echoes that."

Of course, Rey's loneliness, a trait she shares with Kylo, is a major factor in her relationship with Kylo.  

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