The Last Jedi General Discussion

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The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by rawpowah on Tue 16 Jan 2018, 7:11 pm

@snufkin wrote:@Ynqve @rawpowah

All coincidental and platonic! I'm sure that Carrie Fisher had zero input into this and it's only meant to signify how disgusted she is with Kylo and will have nothing to do with him in the next movie!

@snufkin

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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by BB-Rey on Tue 16 Jan 2018, 7:24 pm

@thescavenger @bashfulblueeyes3

It's not been confirmed yet! Only bits of details have been released. I hope so as not having the commentary for The Force Awakens is so frustrating.
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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by Night Huntress on Wed 17 Jan 2018, 3:41 am

I don't know where to post this- the scenes are good quality so I think they're officially released material - If not I apologize. But needed to share this here it's so beautiful.

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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by Starliteprism on Wed 17 Jan 2018, 4:13 am

@Kylo Rey wrote:Yeah, about that Freudian analysis...







(Official Last Jedi concept art by James Carson).
@Kylo Rey

Is that a full moon on the horizon. LOL!
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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by motherofpearl1 on Wed 17 Jan 2018, 5:55 am

Okay....I'm going to be controversial now and say out loud: in my opinion this is the best Star Wars movie yet. Again, my opinion, but my reasons are because of several things. First and foremost, Reylo. This is truly the beating heart of this film, and may be the beating heart of the whole trilogy, because its about two damaged and lonely young people who need each other and want each other but will only be able to be together when they can accept each other. Kylo has to learn that Rey does have friends she loves, and can't turn her back on - or at least one friend - and Rey needs to accept that Kylo and Ben are one and the same and she has to accept both. And love both. Just as the Force itself needs to find a balance. Secondly, there are so many subtexts you could spend hours discussing them and still only scratch the surface. Thirdly, the 'shades of grey' - DJ may be amoral, but he had a point regarding 'good guys' and 'bad guys'. Poe acted like a complete a** half the time....but did Leia really have to use a stun gun on him? And why didn't Holdo tell him what she had in mind? And finally....Luke Skywalker's swansong was breathtaking. What an amazing ending for the hero of the OT. The more Isee TLJ the more I appreciate it. I'm just saddened so many OT fans seem to dislike it.
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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by Ynqve on Wed 17 Jan 2018, 6:27 am

@motherofpearl1 wrote:Okay....I'm going to be controversial now and say out loud: in my opinion this is the best Star Wars movie yet. Again, my opinion, but my reasons are because of several things. First and foremost, Reylo. This is truly the beating heart of this film, and may be the beating heart of the whole trilogy, because its about two damaged and lonely young people who need each other and want each other but will only be able to be together when they can accept each other. Kylo has to learn that Rey does have friends she loves, and can't turn her back on - or at least one friend - and Rey needs to accept that Kylo and Ben are one and the same and she has to accept both. And love both. Just as the Force itself needs to find a balance. Secondly, there are so many subtexts you could spend hours discussing them and still only scratch the surface. Thirdly, the 'shades of grey' - DJ may be amoral, but he had a point regarding 'good guys' and 'bad guys'. Poe acted like a complete a** half the time....but did Leia really have to use a stun gun on him? And why didn't Holdo tell him what she had in mind? And finally....Luke Skywalker's swansong was breathtaking. What an amazing ending for the hero of the OT. The more Isee TLJ the more I appreciate it. I'm just saddened so many OT fans seem to dislike it.
@motherofpearl1

While it's not my favorite SW movie (I still think ESB and ANH are better), I love TLJ for the same reasons. The Reylo stuff is great, the themes are interesting and it's surprisingly layered. It's a movie that's got so many interesting things to discuss and I really appreciate that!

For what it's worth, I think that TLJ will grow on many of the upset OT fans but they need time to mourn the loss of Luke, Han and Leia's happy ending and accept that their headcanons and pet theories were wrong. Not saying that they'll necessarily end up loving it as much as the OT but hopefully they'll at least enjoy it as an entertaining movie.
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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by Let The Past Die on Wed 17 Jan 2018, 6:27 am

@motherofpearl1 wrote:Okay....I'm going to be controversial now and say out loud: in my opinion this is the best Star Wars movie yet. Again, my opinion, but my reasons are because of several things. First and foremost, Reylo. This is truly the beating heart of this film, and may be the beating heart of the whole trilogy, because its about two damaged and lonely young people who need each other and want each other but will only be able to be together when they can accept each other. Kylo has to learn that Rey does have friends she loves, and can't turn her back on - or at least one friend - and Rey needs to accept that Kylo and Ben are one and the same and she has to accept both. And love both. Just as the Force itself needs to find a balance. Secondly, there are so many subtexts you could spend hours discussing them and still only scratch the surface. Thirdly, the 'shades of grey' - DJ may be amoral, but he had a point regarding 'good guys' and 'bad guys'. Poe acted like a complete a** half the time....but did Leia really have to use a stun gun on him? And why didn't Holdo tell him what she had in mind? And finally....Luke Skywalker's swansong was breathtaking. What an amazing ending for the hero of the OT. The more Isee TLJ the more I appreciate it. I'm just saddened so many OT fans seem to dislike it.
@motherofpearl1

Pretty much how I feel word for word. I think in a few years time when we have all 3 films in the ST,  TLJ will probably be the the stand out film.
Even those opposed to it may soften. If those fans boys who saw it and complained mainly because of Luke,  but only saw it once, I feel they need to at least see it again, to be at less than objective about it.

Oh and I was around when the originals came out, loved them then, love then now, but the new ST is just ticking the boxes for me.
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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by Night Huntress on Wed 17 Jan 2018, 7:14 am

@motherofpearl1

I totally agree! It's my favorite- by far! There are many things I liked, but one reason I loved Love  it for. Because it touched me emotionally.
That's something totally irrational and subjective, I know. But when a movie makes me invested- when it touches my heart...I forgive all flaws it might have. That's why all the negative reviews and backlash don't effect me at all..Err no

I have the feeling some fans analyzing things to death... for example:
That moment when Page pulling her last strength together to make the bombs drop! I had tears in my eyes. We only see her a few seconds on the screen and I cared for her... and all some fanboys got from that is how do that bombs dropping down without gravitation blah blah. It's f**** Star Wars! Angry It's not about physics, it's fantasy in space! We have little green gnomes pulling an X-Wing from the swamp with the power of an mystical invisible force field. You wanna discuss how physical laws works in Star Wars? How about Starkiller Base? Wanna discuss how that could work in reality? Better not Rolling Eyes

And for me TLJ had the best acting of all SW movies. I rewatched all the SW episodes just before X-mas and let's be honest...the acting was mediocre at best.
In VIII is was outstanding...from Mark, Daisy and of course Adam- who was so good I want to kiss KK for casting him. Cheek kiss


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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by SheLitAFire on Wed 17 Jan 2018, 8:04 am

@motherofpearl1 wrote:Okay....I'm going to be controversial now and say out loud: in my opinion this is the best Star Wars movie yet. Again, my opinion, but my reasons are because of several things. First and foremost, Reylo. This is truly the beating heart of this film, and may be the beating heart of the whole trilogy, because its about two damaged and lonely young people who need each other and want each other but will only be able to be together when they can accept each other. Kylo has to learn that Rey does have friends she loves, and can't turn her back on - or at least one friend - and Rey needs to accept that Kylo and Ben are one and the same and she has to accept both. And love both. Just as the Force itself needs to find a balance. Secondly, there are so many subtexts you could spend hours discussing them and still only scratch the surface. Thirdly, the 'shades of grey' - DJ may be amoral, but he had a point regarding 'good guys' and 'bad guys'. Poe acted like a complete a** half the time....but did Leia really have to use a stun gun on him? And why didn't Holdo tell him what she had in mind? And finally....Luke Skywalker's swansong was breathtaking. What an amazing ending for the hero of the OT. The more Isee TLJ the more I appreciate it. I'm just saddened so many OT fans seem to dislike it.
@motherofpearl1

I agree. There are still issues with it but it goes deeper than the other movies, although I do like the political commentary in AotC & RotS.
The nuance and complexities of the character arcs & their dialogue, the emotion, the cinematography are superior in my opinion. It's the most mature (in plot, characterizations, cinematography, war, subtext, romance) of the films IMO.
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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by motherofpearl1 on Wed 17 Jan 2018, 8:04 am

@Night Huntress wrote:@motherofpearl1

I totally agree! It's my favorite- by far! There are many things I liked, but one reason I loved Love  it for. Because it touched me emotionally.
That's something totally irrational and subjective, I know. But when a movie makes me invested- when it touches my heart...I forgive all flaws it might have. That's why all the negative reviews and backlash don't effect me at all..Err no

I have the feeling some fans analyzing things to death... for example:
That moment when Page pulling her last strength together to make the bombs drop! I had tears in my eyes. We only see her a few seconds on the screen and I cared for her... and all some fanboys got from that is how do that bombs dropping down without gravitation blah blah. It's f**** Star Wars! Angry It's not about physics, it's fantasy in space! We have little green gnomes pulling an X-Wing from the swamp with the power of an mystical invisible force field. You wanna discuss how physical laws works in Star Wars? How about Starkiller Base? Wanna discuss how that could work in reality? Better not Rolling Eyes

And for me TLJ had the best acting of all SW movies. I rewatched all the SW episodes just before X-mas and let's be honest...the acting was mediocre at best.
In VIII is was outstanding...from Mark, Daisy and of course Adam- who was so good I want to kiss KK for casting him. Cheek kiss


@Night Huntress

Yup, they tend to forget that unlike Star Trek, Star Wars is galactic fantasy - essentially sword and sorcery set in space! And even Star Trek was far fetched- we still haven't got the knack of 'beam me up Scotty!'
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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by SheLitAFire on Wed 17 Jan 2018, 8:07 am

@Starliteprism wrote:
@Kylo Rey wrote:Yeah, about that Freudian analysis...







(Official Last Jedi concept art by James Carson).
@Kylo Rey

Is that a full moon on the horizon. LOL!
@Starliteprism

Lol your comment @Starliteprism made me think of Shakira's song "Shewolf"
"There's a shewolf in the closet, let it out so it can breathe"
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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by nickandnora on Wed 17 Jan 2018, 9:22 am

I have this very general theory about why exactly so many audience members who skew male are having such a difficult time with this particular film, and why it's colouring their sequel trilogy experience as a whole.

I'm an English teacher, and I frequently talk to my classes about the importance of being exposed to different types of narratives, one of the simplest reasons being: the more narratives you are exposed to, the more able you are to recognize the narratives at play in everyday life and in the media and act and react accordingly.

Boys are traditionally exposed to one type of narrative, from the time they are young. Most of these revolve around action, and very few have romance as the driving storyline. Girls, on the other hand, are VERY frequently exposed to the traditional fairytale narrative, often as the very first story they ever form an attachment to.

The problem with this new incarnation of Star Wars, is that it for all of its traditional male window dressing, it's a standard "female" narrative. It's telling a story that girls have been exposed to since... as long as they can remember. Essentially, girls have the manual because they've been reading the manual their whole lives, and guys have never even SEEN the manual (or haven't paid attention to it) and are incredibly confused and frustrated as a result.

I think what you unconsciously see in many knee-jerk negative reviews from the general public are actually many males who are continually trying to throw the narratives that they know at the story, and are upset when it's not sticking: "Action movie! Nope! Western! (which, I would argue, is what the OT fell into) Garrr, not working! OK... comeback story like the Rocky sequels!... WHY ISN'T THIS WORKING!!!!" Meanwhile, girls are over on the other side of the room, like: "Uh... guys? I'm pretty sure this is Beauty and the Beast. And also Pride and Prejudice. And possibly Romeo and Juliet. Maybe if you'd just have a look at this narrative..." "THESE MOVIES ARE RUINING STAR WARS, AHHHHHHH!!!!"

This really isn't the fault of either sex, it's basically just the (general) way we were brought up. But the result is, when it comes to these films, girls will have already accessed the manual many times in their lives, and boys will not have. That is absolutely NOT to say that anyone who has criticism of the films, including anyone here, is wrong. What I'm saying is that in order to criticize the films "correctly" (if that's even fair to say), one probably first needs to acknowledge the primary narrative running through it. And as J.J. has already stated: it's a fairytale. Trying to criticize a fairytale for not being a straightforward war film (for example) is an exercise in futility and frustration. Which, I believe, is what is happening in many corners of the Star Wars fandom.

Just my 0.02.


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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by motherofpearl1 on Wed 17 Jan 2018, 9:41 am

Talking of which check this out; http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/newsbeat-42721387 May have been done for laughs, but some comments on youtube have been downright disturbing.
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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by MrsWindu on Wed 17 Jan 2018, 10:16 am

@motherofpearl1 wrote:Talking of which check this out; http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/newsbeat-42721387            May have been done for laughs, but some comments on youtube have been downright disturbing.
@motherofpearl1

I wondered what the blazes was going on !! Sorry have been slow on uptake - I don’t understand why fans would go to these lengths ? i still consider myself fairly new to all of this but even if I hang around another two years I still have trouble comprehending certain reactions. I’m glad Rian and Co can see the funny side



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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by Irina de France on Wed 17 Jan 2018, 10:21 am

I mean, this is just some sith project made by some trolls, and if they're actually taking themselves seriously... well, lol. All you can do is laugh at them, really.
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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by Starliteprism on Wed 17 Jan 2018, 10:24 am

@SheLitAFire wrote:
@Starliteprism wrote:
@Kylo Rey wrote:Yeah, about that Freudian analysis...







(Official Last Jedi concept art by James Carson).
@Kylo Rey

Is that a full moon on the horizon. LOL!
@Starliteprism

Lol your comment @Starliteprism made me think of Shakira's song "Shewolf"
"There's a shewolf in the closet, let it out so it can breathe"
@SheLitAFire

Hahaha...I love that video. One of the backgrounds, she is dancing in at the beginning is a little suspect. :-p


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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by FrolickingFizzgig on Wed 17 Jan 2018, 10:28 am

@nickandnora
What you've outlined here is the exact reason I'm not taking 90% of the "backlash" and complaints about this film outside of this board seriously. The criticisms often seem to come out like "Snoke had no backstory" (sorry, I forgot the Emperor's 30-minute backstory flashback in the OT), "Rey is nobody" (this was plainly outlined in TFA... they just didn't want to listen), "Luke would never give up" (let go of your dumb hero worship and understand that character arcs are a thing), "Luke didn't ignite the green and f*** s*** up" (WTF... Luke is and always has been a pretty pacifist Jedi), etc. etc. etc.

I'm positive fans actually know and understand all of the above, but they need to criticize something that doesn't reflect what they're actually upset by... the fact that the ST isn't really being made for them, but to attract more female fans to Star Wars. In reality they're just having trouble connecting to a narrative structure they're unfamiliar with. While romance is often included as something of an add-on in many coming-of-age stories told from a male perspective, it's almost never the beating heart or driving force of the narrative. But then you take into account the literally thousands of works of literature and film about orphaned/down-on-hard-times young women seeking their fortunes in the greater world and clashing and connecting with an equal of the opposite sex (usually a man of rich, noble or powerful birth) and it becomes obvious what kind of story the ST really is. 

@Darth Dingbat used to bring this up a lot. Before TLJ the "Reylo" theory was derided as being like Twilight or Fifty Shades of Grey. While those comparisons are of course incredibly stupid, they make sense on some level. Those directing criticizing were capable of recognizing that both Twilight and Fifty Shades are particularly unflattering examples of love stories told from the female perspective. They would prop them up as a shield because both are pretty universally detested and mocked. Of course, they failed to acknowledge the inherent sexism behind their argument. No matter how many times we said "No, think Pride and Prejudice, Anne of Green Gables, Howl's Moving Castle, countless classic fairy tales", they would retort with "it's just Twilight/Fifty Shades and you're falling victim to disgusting sexual fantasies about serial killers."
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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by motherofpearl1 on Wed 17 Jan 2018, 10:35 am

Which is so tiresome.......I wish people would stop and think:'Okay...why don't we change the sexes of the protagonist? Rey has been abused by a dirty old man since babyhood. This thing turned her against her parents who weren't there for her anyway; then her uncle, who should have protected her, tried to kill her because he failed to realise her emotional damage wasn't her fault. As a result she has no idea how to handle people and overreacts when her lover rejects her because of how clumsy her proposal was. Men should avoid this woman like the plague, and she doesn't deserve to be loved. Yes, how noble.
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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by Maria Antonietta on Wed 17 Jan 2018, 11:11 am

So, I've watched the movie for a second time and... What can I say.. Maybe I was having a bad day back in December... I really love it, it's psychologically complex and visually appealing. I have some issues with the ending though. "the Jedi were wrong" "I'm not the last jedi" me:???
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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by Night Huntress on Wed 17 Jan 2018, 11:22 am

@Maria Antonietta wrote:So, I've watched the movie for a second time and... What can I say.. Maybe I was having a bad day back in December... I really love it, it's psychologically complex and visually appealing. I have some issues with the ending though. "the Jedi were wrong" "I'm not the last jedi" me:???
@Maria Antonietta

I don't think Luke meant that literally. Wink
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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by nickandnora on Wed 17 Jan 2018, 11:28 am

One possible "sly" interpretation I have of that moment when Luke says "I am not the last Jedi" and it cuts to Rey... obviously we're supposed to read it as: "He's not the last Jedi, because Rey is the next generation of Jedi", but I personally think it might be: "He's not the last Jedi, because Rey is the actual *last* Jedi" as in, the Jedis will end with her.

But I'm one who thinks the sequel trilogy and achieving Balance is all about the socialization of The Force, meaning there will be no more Jedis or Siths. Just regular people, and The Force.


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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by thescavenger on Wed 17 Jan 2018, 11:59 am

Here after watching it again, but I thought it was really interesting to see how this entire movie was about duality and splitting singularities into two halves, both literally and metaphorically, including:

Literal
- Snoke
- The Supremacy
- Anakin's lightsaber

Metaphorical
- Kylo Ren's conflicted soul being "torn apart"
- Rey and Ben, obviously
- The Twins - Luke and Leia

I probably had more examples during the watching, but I've forgotten quite a few things. But to me, it just seems like a suitable concept to pursue in the middle of a trilogy, which goes from TFA (building things) to TLJ (breaking things apart) and then to IX (fixing and resolving).
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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by MyOnlyHope on Wed 17 Jan 2018, 7:39 pm

@nickandnora wrote:I have this very general theory about why exactly so many audience members who skew male are having such a difficult time with this particular film, and why it's colouring their sequel trilogy experience as a whole.

I'm an English teacher, and I frequently talk to my classes about the importance of being exposed to different types of narratives, one of the simplest reasons being: the more narratives you are exposed to, the more able you are to recognize the narratives at play in everyday life and in the media and act and react accordingly.

Boys are traditionally exposed to one type of narrative, from the time they are young. Most of these revolve around action, and very few have romance as the driving storyline. Girls, on the other hand, are VERY frequently exposed to the traditional fairytale narrative, often as the very first story they ever form an attachment to.

The problem with this new incarnation of Star Wars, is that it for all of its traditional male window dressing, it's a standard "female" narrative. It's telling a story that girls have been exposed to since... as long as they can remember. Essentially, girls have the manual because they've been reading the manual their whole lives, and guys have never even SEEN the manual (or haven't paid attention to it) and are incredibly confused and frustrated as a result.

I think what you unconsciously see in many knee-jerk negative reviews from the general public are actually many males who are continually trying to throw the narratives that they know at the story, and are incredibly frustrated when it's not sticking: "Action movie! Nope! Western! (which, I would argue, is what the OT fell into) Garrr, not working! OK... comeback story like the Rocky sequels!... WHY ISN'T THIS WORKING!!!!" Meanwhile, girls are over on the other side of the room, like: "Uh... guys? I'm pretty sure this is Beauty and the Beast. And also Pride and Prejudice. And possibly Romeo and Juliet. Maybe if you'd just have a look at this narrative..." "THESE MOVIES ARE RUINING STAR WARS, AHHHHHHH!!!!"

This really isn't the fault of either sex, it's basically just the (general) way we were brought up. But the result is, when it comes to these films, girls will have already accessed the manual many times in their lives, and boys will not have. That is absolutely NOT to say that anyone who has criticism of the films, including anyone here, is wrong. What I'm saying is that in order to criticize the films "correctly" (if that's even fair to say), one probably first needs to acknowledge the primary narrative running through it. And as J.J. has already stated: it's a fairytale. Trying to criticize a fairytale for not being a straightforward war film (for example) is an exercise in futility and frustration. Which, I believe, is what is happening in many corners of the Star Wars fandom.

Just my 0.02.
@nickandnora
Thank you so much. All of this is so incredible true. Something I'd like to add is that, not only do girls have full access to their sex's manuel, they also have fairly free reign over the boys' manuel too. As children or young women, we might be handed Anne of Green Gables, Little Women or Pride and Prejudice, but we might also be handed Harry Potter, The Hobbit or the Star Wars OT.

We're lucky enough to have the manuals for:

And:


We can appreciate all of this:

And all of this:


Even though most of you probably haven't see the two shows attached to the openings above, I'm sure you all can easily get a feel for them just from what's there. One is a female-centric fairy tale about a young orphan who gets sponsored to attend high school by a mysterious stranger. She writes weekly letters to this stranger as she grows up (I'm sure you can all guess what happens). The other is the anime adaptation of a shounen battle manga about a selfish teenaged boy who dies a noble death and is resurrected as a detective for the spirit world. Both concepts interest me, but I know to expect a different kind of story entirely in each. I don't try to pin aspects of one on the other. As you've pointed out, I have the manuals needed to understand both, and I know which manual to pull out when.

I think being exposed to a multitude of different kinds of narratives, both female-centric and male-centric, is an aspect within our society where girls are actually kind of privileged over boys. Gatekeeping in the online boys' club happens, but for the most part it's considered entirely socially acceptable for girls to love and be exposed to... pretty much anything. The same isn't true for guys. Let's be real. How many little boys ever get handed a copy of Anne of Green Gables alongside A New Hope? Of course the way we're raised with gender-specified storytelling stems from a kind of ingrained, toxic sexism. "Girl's" stories are often spoken of by guys as these shallow, sappy, petty, weird, boring, and unrelatable things. Everything is Twilight or 50 Shades. Basically girly stories have cooties. This attitude arise partially because we don't give boys the means through which to understand and appreciate more female-centric stories. Of course they have no interest or ability to grasp what's going on in them! I honestly can't praise Lucasfilm enough for what they've done with the ST. A heroine's journey told through the female gaze full of sexual metaphor centered on how the Jedi Killer and the Last Jedi fall in love is so desperately needed right now both in Star Wars and in the real world. Hopefully the completed trilogy will reach people, males and females alike, in a way that transcends "girl" story and "boy story." We need to start giving boys the manual, and Star Wars is probably the franchise that can do that best of all.


Last edited by MyOnlyHope on Wed 17 Jan 2018, 8:02 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by Darth Dementor on Wed 17 Jan 2018, 7:48 pm



I like this guy's general message: Star Wars is catering to the audience of today. It's not for one specific person or group, it's to appeal to the masses.

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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by motherofpearl1 on Thu 18 Jan 2018, 6:42 am

Its funny but I used to be a big Marvel comics fan until they decided 'appeal to the masses' - only by that they meant completely destroy what went before in order to attract new fans and who cares about the old ones? As an oldie I don't thing SW have done that - Luke, Han and Leia might have made terrible mistakes but they were as heroic as they always were. Their story has come full circle and their successors are every bit as fascinating as their predecessors, not shallow copies designed only to appeal to the teen audiences. In fact the message the ST is trying to put across might very well be overlooked by some young uns. Maybe others will see differently but to me the new stories are as fresh as the old, and the characters as endearing,especially Kylo.
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