The Last Jedi General Discussion

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Post by giaciak2 on Sat 20 Jan 2018, 10:31 am

I think women love romance... other way many men are content only with the shooting. this Star war Disney wants to capture everyone boy-girl-man-woman. But I I think that Reylo's idea is wonderful. A gamble in the literature .... a boy who redeems himself in / for love. a boy who is not weak. the most powerful in strength. So if it ends well, (Rey saves / marriied Ben Kylo Ren saves / married Rey). For me it would be a literary masterpiece. I hope this happens. I would buy all the books and CDs. The happy end would be the worthy end of the whole saga. ( sorry for My english).
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Post by Kylo Men on Sat 20 Jan 2018, 11:38 am

When I was young, I thought The Godfather, Part 2 was better than The Godfather. But after watching them again in the past few years, I decided that everything that is apparent and underlinedin Part 2 is already subtly in Part 1, and I prefer the subtlety. I had a similar experience after watching Vertigo and Notorious. I have the same feeling about The Force Awakens and The Last Jedi.

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Post by Kylo Men on Sat 20 Jan 2018, 12:06 pm

@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:@Reynak
What I call genre confusion or what @nickandnora described as being "unable to whip out the right manual when you need it as a result of lack of exposure to said manual" is and always has been at the heart of all the most perplexing reactions to both Reylo and the ST as a whole. 

Star Wars has always followed very male-centric storylines, even when romantic love was featured as a plot point. Luke's journey in the OT is constantly used as a modern staple of Campbell's Hero of a Thousand Faces and while Anakin's story is certainly one part star-crossed lovers tragedy, the romance is told very much from the male gaze (and was poorly received overall, which only added to many fans's skepticism surrounding romance in their Star Wars). They understood and connected with the OT in particular because it's a classic zero to hero coming-of-age story. To generations of men who grew up being exposed to Lord of the Rings, Dune, Flash Gordon and Harry Potter the ST is kind of an anomaly. It isn't a zero-to-hero story and it doesn't fit so neatly into the package of the Hero's Journey because it's not just a male-centric story fitted with a window-dressings female protagonist. 

It's not something I ever really thought about before but women tend have a leg up on men when it comes to the fiction they're exposed to. Maybe it'll start with some simple Anderson fairy tale like Thumbelina or The Snow Queen. We probably all grew up with shelves of animated kids' movies, but our mothers and fathers would have had no qualms with putting in Beauty and the Beast or The Land Before Time. Growing up we're equally likely to be handed Anne of Green Gables or Harry Potter. As older kids or teenagers we'll probably read The Catcher in the Rye or watch Lord of the Rings just as we'll be exposed to Jane Eyre or Gone With the Wind.

We were provided with the "manuals" for both the OT and the ST simultaneously. We experienced incarnations of both female-gaze narratives and male-gaze narratives all our lives and so as soon as Kylo swept Rey up in his arms, watched her sleep, became fascinated by her and she swiftly rose to become his equal in the Force through several intimately filmed and plotted film sequences a switch went off in our minds. We rushed to put that male-centric storyline manual back and took out the one we actually needed. Thus came the simultaneous realizations that "Guys, this is totally Thumbelina, Pride and Prejudice, Jane Eyre, Beauty and the Beast, Anne of Green Gables, Howl's Moving Castle, etc." 

Even many intelligent people who see the romantic angle feel it can only end in tragedy because they're looking at it like friggin' Romeo and Juliet/the PT, both male-centric romantic tragedies. They try to analyze the story from the wrong perspectives and come up short as a result. You need that female-centric narrative manual, you need the coming-of-age manual, you need the optimistic modern fairytale/myth manual. You can't just shove that square into that circular box because no matter what you do it will never, ever fit.

It's so frustrating because being underexposed to different kinds of stories has led to some serious confusion and disappointment from some corners. I just wish people would be more willing to admit that they might be lacking in this department rather than immediately say anybody who believed in the Reylo narrative direction was a rabid fangirl. It's one thing to be underexposed as a result of a gender divide, it's another to purposefully remain ignorant and slam others who have had different upbringings and perspectives.
@FrolickingFizzgig

On other SW sites, I think I'm going to just start posting, "Maybe you're not watching a sci-fi adventure but a dark romantic fable" over and over and it will pretty much fit every conversation.

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Post by rey09 on Sat 20 Jan 2018, 12:23 pm

@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:@Reynak

Even many intelligent people who see the romantic angle feel it can only end in tragedy because they're looking at it like friggin' Romeo and Juliet/the PT, both male-centric romantic tragedies. They try to analyze the story from the wrong perspectives and come up short as a result. You need that female-centric narrative manual, you need the coming-of-age manual, you need the optimistic modern fairytale/myth manual. You can't just shove that square into that circular box because no matter what you do it will never, ever fit.

It's so frustrating because being underexposed to different kinds of stories has led to some serious confusion and disappointment from some corners. I just wish people would be more willing to admit that they might be lacking in this department rather than immediately say anybody who believed in the Reylo narrative direction was a rabid fangirl. It's one thing to be underexposed as a result of a gender divide, it's another to purposefully remain ignorant and slam others who have had different upbringings and perspectives.
@FrolickingFizzgig
Claps Claps YESS!!! When I try explaining all the reylo to ppl, I always get this look like "wow...you are reachingg" We have been right about everything and still are and yet we're labeled as delusional because these people just don't know how to correctly analyze. It's soo irritating. I can't wait until 9 shuts them up for good. If they leave the fandom good riddance.

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Post by lauvamp on Sat 20 Jan 2018, 1:18 pm

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Post by snufkin on Sat 20 Jan 2018, 2:04 pm

@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:@Reynak
What I call genre confusion or what @nickandnora described as being "unable to whip out the right manual when you need it as a result of lack of exposure to said manual" is and always has been at the heart of all the most perplexing reactions to both Reylo and the ST as a whole. 

Star Wars has always followed very male-centric storylines, even when romantic love was featured as a plot point. Luke's journey in the OT is constantly used as a modern staple of Campbell's Hero of a Thousand Faces and while Anakin's story is certainly one part star-crossed lovers tragedy, the romance is told very much from the male gaze (and was poorly received overall, which only added to many fans's skepticism surrounding romance in their Star Wars). They understood and connected with the OT in particular because it's a classic zero to hero coming-of-age story. To generations of men who grew up being exposed to Lord of the Rings, Dune, Flash Gordon and Harry Potter the ST is kind of an anomaly. It isn't a zero-to-hero story and it doesn't fit so neatly into the package of the Hero's Journey because it's not just a male-centric story fitted with a window-dressings female protagonist. 

It's not something I ever really thought about before but women tend have a leg up on men when it comes to the fiction they're exposed to. Maybe it'll start with some simple Anderson fairy tale like Thumbelina or The Snow Queen. We probably all grew up with shelves of animated kids' movies, but our mothers and fathers would have had no qualms with putting in Beauty and the Beast or The Land Before Time. Growing up we're equally likely to be handed Anne of Green Gables or Harry Potter. As older kids or teenagers we'll probably read The Catcher in the Rye or watch Lord of the Rings just as we'll be exposed to Jane Eyre or Gone With the Wind.

We were provided with the "manuals" for both the OT and the ST simultaneously. We experienced incarnations of both female-gaze narratives and male-gaze narratives all our lives and so as soon as Kylo swept Rey up in his arms, watched her sleep, became fascinated by her and she swiftly rose to become his equal in the Force through several intimately filmed and plotted film sequences a switch went off in our minds. We rushed to put that male-centric storyline manual back and took out the one we actually needed. Thus came the simultaneous realizations that "Guys, this is totally Thumbelina, Pride and Prejudice, Jane Eyre, Beauty and the Beast, Anne of Green Gables, Howl's Moving Castle, etc." 

Even many intelligent people who see the romantic angle feel it can only end in tragedy because they're looking at it like friggin' Romeo and Juliet/the PT, both male-centric romantic tragedies. They try to analyze the story from the wrong perspectives and come up short as a result. You need that female-centric narrative manual, you need the coming-of-age manual, you need the optimistic modern fairytale/myth manual. You can't just shove that square into that circular box because no matter what you do it will never, ever fit.

It's so frustrating because being underexposed to different kinds of stories has led to some serious confusion and disappointment from some corners. I just wish people would be more willing to admit that they might be lacking in this department rather than immediately say anybody who believed in the Reylo narrative direction was a rabid fangirl. It's one thing to be underexposed as a result of a gender divide, it's another to purposefully remain ignorant and slam others who have had different upbringings and perspectives.
@FrolickingFizzgig

Speaking of which, Talkhouse (which Rian Johnson is a contributor) just published this essay. Which isn't so much about orgasms as it is about how films typically fall into stereotypes or the male perspective when depicting women's experiences.

The Politics of Female Orgasms in Hollywood

Why is it that Hollywood rarely shows the truth about sexual pleasure for women? Is it because we prefer to idealize pure romance and treat straight sex as a sport? Or is it because sometimes, like Kids, the truth is TMI and not pretty to watch? It’s not the entertainment industry’s responsibility to teach us what female pleasure is all about. But I think it’s important to acknowledge its limitations and how those end up influencing our lives. Female pleasure in stories can be seen as an important part of expressing a character’s independence and self-love. But how is this freedom distorted when the portrayal of pleasure is restrictive, usually operating within the spectrum of fantasy?

Historically, women have been told what is deemed as sexually appropriate. We’ve got whole laws governing our bodies, for goodness sake, not to mention psychologies centered on false notions about them.
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Post by ZioRen on Sat 20 Jan 2018, 2:10 pm

I often wonder if a lot of the bullheadedness over refusing to see romantic Reylo is simply because a lot of people assume Disney would never put a wholesome female protagonist with a bad guy romantically in this day and age. There is a heavy pushback against these sort of narratives these days. I know I've come across people who aren't huge Star Wars fans and have nothing particularly against Reylo who were like "no way, they wouldn't do that" for that reason alone. It wasn't that they personally had a problem with it, they just thought it would never be done with the social justice mindset of today.
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Post by Saracene on Sat 20 Jan 2018, 2:36 pm

@ZioRen wrote:I often wonder if a lot of the bullheadedness over refusing to see romantic Reylo is simply because a lot of people assume Disney would never put a wholesome female protagonist with a bad guy romantically in this day and age. There is a heavy pushback against these sort of narratives these days. I know I've come across people who aren't huge Star Wars fans and have nothing particularly against Reylo who were like "no way, they wouldn't do that" for that reason alone. It wasn't that they personally had a problem with it, they just thought it would never be done with the social justice mindset of today.
@ZioRen

I admit, one of the reasons for my scepticism over mutual Reylo was exactly the above. But to my surprise, TLJ managed to smuggle in the romantic/sexual undertones while also appeasing the social justice mindset by showing Rey close the door on Kylo in the end. So nobody has the grounds to complain, while at the same time, the romantic connection is very much out there and it's not just a tiny subsection of Reylos who are discussing it, but the GA and the mainstream publications too.

I still think they're treading carefully where Rey is concerned; Rian felt comfortable making that blatant comparison between Kylo and Julia Roberts in Notting Hill but I don't think anyone involved made any comments about Rey's side of things and where her feelings are at.
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Post by ZioRen on Sat 20 Jan 2018, 2:44 pm

@Saracene wrote:
@ZioRen wrote:I often wonder if a lot of the bullheadedness over refusing to see romantic Reylo is simply because a lot of people assume Disney would never put a wholesome female protagonist with a bad guy romantically in this day and age. There is a heavy pushback against these sort of narratives these days. I know I've come across people who aren't huge Star Wars fans and have nothing particularly against Reylo who were like "no way, they wouldn't do that" for that reason alone. It wasn't that they personally had a problem with it, they just thought it would never be done with the social justice mindset of today.
@ZioRen

I admit, one of the reasons for my scepticism over mutual Reylo was exactly the above. But to my surprise, TLJ managed to smuggle in the romantic/sexual undertones while also appeasing the social justice mindset by showing Rey close the door on Kylo in the end. So nobody has the grounds to complain, while at the same time, the romantic connection is very much out there and it's not just a tiny subsection of Reylos who are discussing it, but the GA and the mainstream publications too.

I still think they're treading carefully where Rey is concerned; Rian felt comfortable making that blatant comparison between Kylo and Julia Roberts in Notting Hill but I don't think anyone involved made any comments about Rey's side of things and where her feelings are at.
@Saracene

Oh believe me, I'm not knocking those people for thinking that way. I've for sure thought that way too back when I had serious doubts, and I think Lucasfilm is trying to be careful in how they handle this romance. I feel like it's very telling that the relationship only seems to evolve on Rey's terms, and that Rey always ends in an advantageous position over Kylo (ie standing in the doorway of the Falcon while he's staring up at her wounded and laid out like in TFA or on his knees and looking remorseful like in TLJ).

And like you said, I also think it's telling that they're down to talk about what Kylo thinks about Rey but not as much about the complex feelings Rey has for Kylo. It's like they don't want to touch it until it's wrapped up in a way they hope is satisfying and does't cause backlash.
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Post by MyOnlyHope on Sat 20 Jan 2018, 4:18 pm

I guess the thought that Lucasfilm might be too scared to "go there" never really got to me because I always kind of felt like they would develop the relationship on Rey's terms only. I expect that to continue in IX and really wouldn't want it any other way. The kiss, for example, I'm firmly in the camp who believes she has to be the one to initiate in... pretty much every way. The hand scene is so beautiful and effective for me partially because she is the one to reach out to him. The whole narrative is something of a female power fantasy. It always has been. Just to provide a possible example for the future. A clear emphasis has been placed on the moment of Rey and Kylo's separation in both VII and VIII with Rey being the one to look back at him (and look down from a position of greater power) in a heap on the ground. She has the high ground. Her looking back at him from the Falcon specifically has become a pattern for the third act to subvert. I would be very surprised to see IX not include a scene of Rey extending her hand to Kylo and inviting him with her onto the Falcon. The thematic and visual precedence is there, and once again, the development of the relationship is placed in her hands.

So far the writers have done a great job presenting Kylo as he is right now (a pathetic, miserable mess who can't stop wallowing in the dark/his own pain) as "beneath" Rey. I know some people don't like that idea because he's been so abused and mistreated, but the way I see it, it's really up to him to let go of his anger and resentment and earn his place in Rey's story by atoning and choosing to do good. Obviously ironic because he's the only Skywalker left in the Skywalker saga, not her. He's the only character who can right the wrongs of the past by choosing love over power. But then this nothing girl is what will give him the strength to do so. Again, female power fantasy.


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Post by Moonjump05 on Sat 20 Jan 2018, 4:59 pm

@MyOnlyHope wrote:I guess the thought that Lucasfilm might be too scared to "go there" never really got to me because I always kind of felt like they would develop the relationship on Rey's terms only. I expect that to continue in IX and really wouldn't want it any other way. The kiss, for example, I'm firmly in the camp who believes she has to be the one to initiate in... pretty much every way. The hand scene is so beautiful and effective for me partially because she is the one to reach out to him. The whole narrative is something of a female power fantasy. It always has been. Just to provide a possible example for the future. A clear emphasis has been placed on the moment of Rey and Kylo's separation in both VII and VIII with Rey being the one to look back at him (and look down from a position of greater power) in a heap on the ground. She has the high ground. Her looking back at him from the Falcon specifically has become a pattern for the third act to subvert. I would be very surprised to see IX not include a scene of Rey extending her hand to Kylo and inviting him with her onto the Falcon. The thematic and visual precedence is there, and once again, the development of the relationship is placed in her hands.

So far the writers have done a great job preventing Kylo as he is right now (a pathetic, miserable mess who can't stop wallowing in the dark/his own pain) as "beneath" Rey. I know some people don't like that idea because he's been so abused and mistreated, but the way I see it, it's really up to him to let go of his anger and resentment and earn his place in Rey's story by atoning and choosing to do good. Obviously ironic because he's the only Skywalker left in the Skywalker saga, not her. He's the only character who can right the wrongs of the past by choosing love over power. But then this nothing girl is what will give him the strength to do so. Again, female power fantasy.
@MyOnlyHope

Yeah, this. Reylo works because Rey doesn't lose her agency and she is actively persuing it. If Rey was a doormat for super aggresive Kylo, the audience reaction would be more in line with anti wish fulfillment.

I have said since 2015 that Reylo is a female power fantasy. And you so rarely get that outside of romance novels or fanfiction, it is amazing to see it in a blockbuster.
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Post by ZioRen on Sat 20 Jan 2018, 5:19 pm

It being a female power fantasy in many ways is the real reason for the backlash from many male fans and likely the vehement denial of Reylo in some sectors too. This is a romance very much on Rey's terms, and Kylo is often presented as weaker than Rey, "beneath" (though I don't like using that word) her, and even somewhat submissive at times (as in every time he tries to assert dominance over Rey, it flips on him and he winds up on his knees before her by the end).

That's not going to sit well with a lot of people, and it's funny that I see it constantly compared to popular romance stories where the female character isn't as strong or in control, like Twilight and 50 Shades. They're trying to throw shade at the romance by comparing it to those "silly fantasies" that "silly women" enjoy even when it doesn't fit at all (and with the extra level of implying that those stories are also clearly poisoning women and making them weak-minded). It's condescending and ridiculous on multiple levels. Laughing


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Post by giaciak2 on Sat 20 Jan 2018, 5:45 pm

Ha ha ha @ZioRen you are My idol !!! I like What you write
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Post by ZioRen on Sat 20 Jan 2018, 5:52 pm

@giaciak2 wrote:Ha ha ha @ZioRen you are My idol !!! I like What you write
@giaciak2

WinksD I'm letting out a bit of frustration in these posts, if it wasn't obvious. Man do the comments on and reactions to this romance piss me off sometimes!
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Post by giaciak2 on Sat 20 Jan 2018, 6:07 pm

@ZioRen mee too but I’m not able to write like you! Please write again for me !!! I love this forum !! Thank you all
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Post by DeeBee on Sat 20 Jan 2018, 6:20 pm

@Moonjump05 wrote:
@MyOnlyHope wrote:I guess the thought that Lucasfilm might be too scared to "go there" never really got to me because I always kind of felt like they would develop the relationship on Rey's terms only. I expect that to continue in IX and really wouldn't want it any other way. The kiss, for example, I'm firmly in the camp who believes she has to be the one to initiate in... pretty much every way. The hand scene is so beautiful and effective for me partially because she is the one to reach out to him. The whole narrative is something of a female power fantasy. It always has been. Just to provide a possible example for the future. A clear emphasis has been placed on the moment of Rey and Kylo's separation in both VII and VIII with Rey being the one to look back at him (and look down from a position of greater power) in a heap on the ground. She has the high ground. Her looking back at him from the Falcon specifically has become a pattern for the third act to subvert. I would be very surprised to see IX not include a scene of Rey extending her hand to Kylo and inviting him with her onto the Falcon. The thematic and visual precedence is there, and once again, the development of the relationship is placed in her hands.

So far the writers have done a great job preventing Kylo as he is right now (a pathetic, miserable mess who can't stop wallowing in the dark/his own pain) as "beneath" Rey. I know some people don't like that idea because he's been so abused and mistreated, but the way I see it, it's really up to him to let go of his anger and resentment and earn his place in Rey's story by atoning and choosing to do good. Obviously ironic because he's the only Skywalker left in the Skywalker saga, not her. He's the only character who can right the wrongs of the past by choosing love over power. But then this nothing girl is what will give him the strength to do so. Again, female power fantasy.
@MyOnlyHope

Yeah, this. Reylo works because Rey doesn't lose her agency and she is actively persuing it. If Rey was a doormat for super aggresive Kylo, the audience reaction would be more in line with anti wish fulfillment.

I have said since 2015 that Reylo is a female power fantasy. And you so rarely get that outside of romance novels or fanfiction, it is amazing to see it in a blockbuster.
@Moonjump05

Wow MyOnlyHope I love this.. All of it!!!
It's so interesting considering what Kylo/Ben said to Rey about her place in the story in the throne room:
"You had no place in this story. You come from nothing. You’re nothing... but not to me. Join me. Please."
His focus was on how she fit into 'his' story.. his family's legacy etc..
But in IX, hopefully he'll be considering how he fits in 'her' story!
And ultimately, they'll need to come together and figure out 'their' story.

Moonjump this must be why I love TLJ so much - in a way I've not loved a movie in years! Smile
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Post by MyOnlyHope on Sat 20 Jan 2018, 6:52 pm

@ZioRen Yeah, I mean, you're totally right. A lot of guys probably want nothing more than to see their male power fantasies played out on screen. Hence "Luke has to ignite the green and wreck s***!#@" Never mind the fact that Luke has always been a pacifist to his core, not a fighter.

When they don't get their wish fulfillment realized, they start screaming wildly about women ruining their Star Wars. They take personal offense to the female gaze. Seriously, there aren't very many criticisms of the ST that don't stem from poorly veiled insecurity. The list of examples could last for pages. "It's stupid that Rey can beat Kylo without training. What an overpowered mary sue feminist b****." "Kylo shouldn't have taken off his mask. Without it he's just a whiny, cryface girly boy." "Rose is worse than Jar Jar. She's annoying and not hot enough for my SW." "Holdo is an old bag and a useless effing character. Ack-Bar should've run the Kamikaze mission instead."

Basically they watch TFA and TLJ and just see a lot of dramatic, emotional guys getting whipped by girls. No putting in any deeper thought than that. Oh, and then they come online to share all those insecurities complaints endlessly.
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Post by twilekempire on Sat 20 Jan 2018, 7:26 pm

@MyOnlyHope wrote:I guess the thought that Lucasfilm might be too scared to "go there" never really got to me because I always kind of felt like they would develop the relationship on Rey's terms only. I expect that to continue in IX and really wouldn't want it any other way. The kiss, for example, I'm firmly in the camp who believes she has to be the one to initiate in... pretty much every way. The hand scene is so beautiful and effective for me partially because she is the one to reach out to him. The whole narrative is something of a female power fantasy. It always has been. Just to provide a possible example for the future. A clear emphasis has been placed on the moment of Rey and Kylo's separation in both VII and VIII with Rey being the one to look back at him (and look down from a position of greater power) in a heap on the ground. She has the high ground. Her looking back at him from the Falcon specifically has become a pattern for the third act to subvert. I would be very surprised to see IX not include a scene of Rey extending her hand to Kylo and inviting him with her onto the Falcon. The thematic and visual precedence is there, and once again, the development of the relationship is placed in her hands.

So far the writers have done a great job presenting Kylo as he is right now (a pathetic, miserable mess who can't stop wallowing in the dark/his own pain) as "beneath" Rey. I know some people don't like that idea because he's been so abused and mistreated, but the way I see it, it's really up to him to let go of his anger and resentment and earn his place in Rey's story by atoning and choosing to do good. Obviously ironic because he's the only Skywalker left in the Skywalker saga, not her. He's the only character who can right the wrongs of the past by choosing love over power. But then this nothing girl is what will give him the strength to do so. Again, female power fantasy.
@MyOnlyHope

The idea of him only returning to the Millennium Falcon and everything it represents upon her invitation, so the hated past has become somethign new, something *shared* between both of them, is absolutely perfect. It would explain why a scene of him on the Falcon from TFA was cut too; preserves the impact when it finally comes. I very much hope that comes to pass!
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Post by Darth Dementor on Sat 20 Jan 2018, 8:06 pm

Picked up a couple of, trademark, Reylo parallel after re-watching TLJ: Both Ben and Rey are rejected by their masters in their introduction scenes. Luke walks away from Rey refusing to teach her. Ben is scolded by Snoke and told he may not be good enough to be his apprentice.

Another is both walk away from their masters for one another, believing their potential significant other is the answer. Rey because Luke lied about his turning and because she thinks he can be the new hope for the resistance. Ben kills Snoke for Rey because his teacher harms and what's to kill his lady.

And both attempt to physically assault their teachers and are schooled by them. Ben got smacked down the instant he stood up to his. Rey got a little bit further but Luke chose not to get to violent with his prodigy. Not to mention both Luke and Snoke die in the movie.

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Post by twilekempire on Sat 20 Jan 2018, 8:08 pm

@MyOnlyHope wrote:Bittersweet realization of the day.

If Ben Solo had never fallen to the dark side, Rey would've died alone on Jakku.

If he'd grown up happily, if his family had been there for him, if Snoke had never poisoned his mind, if Luke had never betrayed him, then he never would've destroyed the temple. If he'd never destroyed the temple, Luke never would've gone into exile. If Luke had never gone into exile, the map to Ahch-To never would've been sought after. If nobody cared about finding the map, then the events of TFA never would've occurred. Rey's light never would've risen to meet Kylo's darkness. She would've died alone on Jakku waiting for her parents to come back until the very end.

In a way Kylo needed to be abused and betrayed in order to set off the chain of events that eventually led Rey off Jakku, led to her becoming his equal in the light, and led to them meeting and bonding in the Force.
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Great insight! I think it would be very healing for him if she told him that one day. To find some grace in it.
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Post by Saracene on Sun 21 Jan 2018, 2:54 am

Just a random observation: while I do like the Resistance plot, I think it suffered from the lack of real conflict or a Han-type morally grey character. Finn, Poe, Rose, Leia, Holdo are pretty much all earnest characters and the Holdo/Poe conflict is all about the information being withheld, rather than a genuine clash. I mean, I get why Holdo wouldn't share the information with Poe, but if she did their conflict would have been over and he most likely would just go along with this plan that makes total sense. This is why, before the movie, I was really hoping that Holdo would be a shady b**** who could spice up the Resistance dynamics, but no she's just another goodie.

Looking back on the OT, it's interesting how much the whole Rebels vs Empire is in the background; in ESB, it just sorta disappears completely after the opening battle and the rest of the movie is all about the characters' adventures away from the Rebels. Whereas in TLJ, the character arcs of Poe and Finn are all tied in with the Resistance, which is probably why it feels like there's nowhere else for them to go in the Episode IX.
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Post by Darth_Awakened on Sun 21 Jan 2018, 3:24 am

@Saracene wrote:Just a random observation: while I do like the Resistance plot, I think it suffered from the lack of real conflict or a Han-type morally grey character. Finn, Poe, Rose, Leia, Holdo are pretty much all earnest characters and the Holdo/Poe conflict is all about the information being withheld, rather than a genuine clash. I mean, I get why Holdo wouldn't share the information with Poe, but if she did their conflict would have been over and he most likely would just go along with this plan that makes total sense. This is why, before the movie, I was really hoping that Holdo would be a shady b**** who could spice up the Resistance dynamics, but no she's just another goodie.

Looking back on the OT, it's interesting how much the whole Rebels vs Empire is in the background; in ESB, it just sorta disappears completely after the opening battle and the rest of the movie is all about the characters' adventures away from the Rebels. Whereas in TLJ, the character arcs of Poe and Finn are all tied in with the Resistance, which is probably why it feels like there's nowhere else for them to go in the Episode IX.
@Saracene

That's great point about the ESB as characters driven story. And that's probably one of the reason I wasn't able to connect with the resistance plot characters that much in TLJ. They were all literally about the "cause". And their individual desires and motives were hidden under the importance of the Cause.
TLJ ended with only two characters who were above it: Luke and Kylo. Even Rey got lost somewhere in between - even though I have a vague feeling that it wasn't Rian's intention with Rey first and foremost. But IMO the movie failed to convey Rey's personal motivation especially at the end of the movie.
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Post by Saracene on Sun 21 Jan 2018, 4:33 am

@Darth_Awakened wrote:
@Saracene wrote:Just a random observation: while I do like the Resistance plot, I think it suffered from the lack of real conflict or a Han-type morally grey character. Finn, Poe, Rose, Leia, Holdo are pretty much all earnest characters and the Holdo/Poe conflict is all about the information being withheld, rather than a genuine clash. I mean, I get why Holdo wouldn't share the information with Poe, but if she did their conflict would have been over and he most likely would just go along with this plan that makes total sense. This is why, before the movie, I was really hoping that Holdo would be a shady b**** who could spice up the Resistance dynamics, but no she's just another goodie.

Looking back on the OT, it's interesting how much the whole Rebels vs Empire is in the background; in ESB, it just sorta disappears completely after the opening battle and the rest of the movie is all about the characters' adventures away from the Rebels. Whereas in TLJ, the character arcs of Poe and Finn are all tied in with the Resistance, which is probably why it feels like there's nowhere else for them to go in the Episode IX.
@Saracene

That's great point about the ESB as characters driven story. And that's probably one of the reason I wasn't able to connect with the resistance plot characters that much in TLJ. They were all literally about the "cause". And their individual desires and motives were hidden under the importance of the Cause.
TLJ ended with only two characters who were above it: Luke and Kylo. Even Rey got lost somewhere in between - even though I have a vague feeling that it wasn't Rian's intention with Rey first and foremost. But IMO the movie failed to convey Rey's personal motivation especially at the end of the movie.
@Darth_Awakened

Yeah you couldn't really see what else the Resistance characters cared about or wanted outside of the Cause.

The problem is, it's pretty much impossible to have another ESB where the movie ends with a climactic fight between two people and nothing else. Nowadays, every SW movie must end with a big action scene. I'm at least grateful that the Crait sequence is so visually striking (that red dust against the white salt surface is such a simple yet brilliant idea). It's a huge improvement on the TFA Starkiller sequence which was just zzzzzz.
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Post by Darth_Awakened on Sun 21 Jan 2018, 4:50 am

@Saracene wrote:
@Darth_Awakened wrote:
@Saracene wrote:Just a random observation: while I do like the Resistance plot, I think it suffered from the lack of real conflict or a Han-type morally grey character. Finn, Poe, Rose, Leia, Holdo are pretty much all earnest characters and the Holdo/Poe conflict is all about the information being withheld, rather than a genuine clash. I mean, I get why Holdo wouldn't share the information with Poe, but if she did their conflict would have been over and he most likely would just go along with this plan that makes total sense. This is why, before the movie, I was really hoping that Holdo would be a shady b**** who could spice up the Resistance dynamics, but no she's just another goodie.

Looking back on the OT, it's interesting how much the whole Rebels vs Empire is in the background; in ESB, it just sorta disappears completely after the opening battle and the rest of the movie is all about the characters' adventures away from the Rebels. Whereas in TLJ, the character arcs of Poe and Finn are all tied in with the Resistance, which is probably why it feels like there's nowhere else for them to go in the Episode IX.
@Saracene

That's great point about the ESB as characters driven story. And that's probably one of the reason I wasn't able to connect with the resistance plot characters that much in TLJ. They were all literally about the "cause". And their individual desires and motives were hidden under the importance of the Cause.
TLJ ended with only two characters who were above it: Luke and Kylo. Even Rey got lost somewhere in between - even though I have a vague feeling that it wasn't Rian's intention with Rey first and foremost. But IMO the movie failed to convey Rey's personal motivation especially at the end of the movie.
@Darth_Awakened

Yeah you couldn't really see what else the Resistance characters cared about or wanted outside of the Cause.

The problem is, it's pretty much impossible to have another ESB where the movie ends with a climactic fight between two people and nothing else. Nowadays, every SW movie must end with a big action scene. I'm at least grateful that the Crait sequence is so visually striking (that red dust against the white salt surface is such a simple yet brilliant idea). It's a huge improvement on the TFA Starkiller sequence which was just zzzzzz.
@Saracene

I agree. Crait was at least visually stunning.

The action sequences are not bothering me per se - I think it's still possible to make an action sequence driven by the personal motivations of the characters - Crait sequences was a mash up of all of it. Kylo's personal motivation + Luke's personal motivation. All of the rest: pretty much just the Cause.

I have been thinking as well about one other parallel: Rogue One (Which was 100% about the cause + nostalgia fan service) - speaking about my personal view it - it didn't came across that bad because I hadn't expected it before to be more than that). But I did expect more of TLJ in terms to be more character - personal driven than average action packed "partisan" movie from mid-seventies in my country.
Even TFA had more of a personal touch to it (no matter what you think about SKB trench run).
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Post by SkyStar on Sun 21 Jan 2018, 5:26 am

@Darth_Awakened wrote:
@Saracene wrote:Just a random observation: while I do like the Resistance plot, I think it suffered from the lack of real conflict or a Han-type morally grey character. Finn, Poe, Rose, Leia, Holdo are pretty much all earnest characters and the Holdo/Poe conflict is all about the information being withheld, rather than a genuine clash. I mean, I get why Holdo wouldn't share the information with Poe, but if she did their conflict would have been over and he most likely would just go along with this plan that makes total sense. This is why, before the movie, I was really hoping that Holdo would be a shady b**** who could spice up the Resistance dynamics, but no she's just another goodie.

Looking back on the OT, it's interesting how much the whole Rebels vs Empire is in the background; in ESB, it just sorta disappears completely after the opening battle and the rest of the movie is all about the characters' adventures away from the Rebels. Whereas in TLJ, the character arcs of Poe and Finn are all tied in with the Resistance, which is probably why it feels like there's nowhere else for them to go in the Episode IX.
@Saracene

That's great point about the ESB as characters driven story. And that's probably one of the reason I wasn't able to connect with the resistance plot characters that much in TLJ. They were all literally about the "cause". And their individual desires and motives were hidden under the importance of the Cause.
TLJ ended with only two characters who were above it: Luke and Kylo. Even Rey got lost somewhere in between - even though I have a vague feeling that it wasn't Rian's intention with Rey first and foremost. But IMO the movie failed to convey Rey's personal  motivation  especially at the end of the movie.
@Darth_Awakened

I agree. To think about it the OT trio all had their own worlds and interests (Han and racing, smuggling, Leia and politics, Luke and Jedi and his father) and then it was interesting how they reacted to the mess of war in their individual way.

But now the Resistance heroes has only war to them. Finn had his background but it was pushed aside and now he is defined by Rey, Rose and Resistance. Poe's life is just the Resistance. And Rey? We still don't see how she wants to be part of this or if she wants to be a Jedi. She has the texts, but so what.

With Kylo at least you see how much he didn't want to be dragged into this mess. There are many ways his life would have gone without it.  Ironically involving all the three worlds of Luke, Leia and Han. He could have been a jedi, could have raced like his dad or be involved into politics. Even Ben's calligraphy set has more personality then the Resistance!

With others it's like they are supposed to be fighting the war because basically they have nothing else besides it. That is almost sad.
Maybe that is why Rey and Kylo makes so much sense - because that is the way to show that no, there is something else in this world then fighting for these people.
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