Episode IX: Spoilers and Rumors

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Post by AhsokaTano on Tue 1 May - 18:08

@Casey Kanata
Yep I agree - he had to interact with Luke first to hit rock bottom .
@ everyone
Do we all think he has hit rock bottom now ? I certainly do and the only way is up once you hit that stage ( especially in a redemption arc ). I don’t know how it’s going to pan out in episode 9 but if they do make the main character Kylo I won’t be unhappy with this . It’s funny but I agree with what you all say about rey - that for the main character there’s a lot we don’t know about her not just background but her as a person . I feel I know Kylo more and his feelings etc - maybe that’s why I empathise with him more . My husband when we watched TLJ actually said to me afterwards ( he’s general audience )it’s interesting what they’ve done with kylo - he was in the background in force awakens , there in the shadows but now he’s the main character and it’s his story . I wonder how many other people see it the same way .
Just wanted to further add now thinking about it maybe we felt this ( ie my hubby thinking Kylo was the main hero character and me empathising with kylo more )because he is the legacy character which is usually the hero in most films and traditional books etc but what they’ve done in sequel trilogy is subverted it - the non legacy character is the hero ie Rey . Just really hope they can all pull it off in episode 9 and the whole thing comes together beautifully . Am counting on you lucasfilm! Am staying positive that they will . Smile
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Post by Mila95 on Tue 1 May - 19:12

Imo he'll hit rock bottom when he has nothing and has to confront his mistakes.Killing Han will always be the worst thing he ever did and like Snoke said it split him to the bone and his last conversation with Han probably helped make him realize he needs to be rid of Snoke.But I don't think he actually let himself feel the full regret of killing Han and basically mourn his father.He was still going on about killing the past and holding onto the idea that if he just destroys everything that hurt him and builds something new than that will make things right for him.So I think he needs to let go of that idea and feel the full weight of his choices and that at some point he doesn't have Rey or power or his family or Snoke in his head and he's on his own.And from that he can decide to make things right and earn that Disney happy ending lol

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Post by MindAndMagic on Tue 1 May - 19:19

@Mila95

Agreed.

I don’t think the ST hasn’t invited us to walk to Kylo’s shoes, I would even go so far as to say he is the character the viewers have been encouraged to sympathise with the most (certainly the case for myself). He is the one character whose deepest inner emotions have been explored in greatest depth over the course of two movies, which makes him the most appealing character and inspires all this debate. I personally don’t see him as a mystery, quote the opposite in fact, he is more of an open book to me than anyone else, including Rey who is the protagonist. I read him as a character who wears his heart on his sleeve more so than anyone, it’s impossible for him to hide his true feelings of pain, self-loathing and longing for connection with another human being who can understand him (which turned out to be none other than Rey). It’s all written on his expressive face. This is why any scepticism with regards to his fate or fans thinking he is now firmly on the path of evil is incomprehensible to me. It’s very true he is still misguided, but I think the second he saw the disappointment in Rey’s teary eyes and her stern expression at the very end, it pierced him right through the heart. At this point he felt he screwed up. He could have had everything and he let it slip through its fingers. It’s a Pyrric victory. Not even a victory, more like the greatest pain he has ever felt because he loves this girl, it’s clear now their feelings are mutual, but the time is not right for either of them. He truly believed it would all be well after Snoke is gone, but as it turned out, even the evil serpent being gone for good can’t free him of his own demons. Kylo is his own worst enemy, that is the adversary he must overcome. He talks about letting go of the past, but in the end Rey did it and he could not because he hasn’t learned to forgive yet. I guess this is what #ForceGhostLuke conversations are for. xD

I absolutely love how Rian handled Kylo’s arc in TLJ. It clearly showed how much his father’s loss at his own hand has completely broken his spirit and now he has to suffer even further because he still hasn’t reached the point of true maturity. But that’s the whole point of coming-of-age journeys. Honestly, the more he suffers, the more I love him. Sometimes you feel a peculiar satisfaction seeing the characters you love the most in torment because you know what will come after, especially in stories like this. There was no way Kylo would be in good place by the end of TLJ because then there wouldn’t be any point of having a third movie. The middle chapter is usually the lowest point emotionally where the character feels utterly defeated and broken, and, most of all, all alone. This is how they both feel despite it seemingly ending on an uplifting note. TLJ was a great movie, but it wasn't a happy movie. Rey’s sad smile watching Finn and Rose, and then Leia, is telling. I feel like she too will always feel alone if she loses Ben forever because he is the one she opens up to, he is her soulmate and she knows it. The good thing is, the worst is behind us, episode IX will be the point where they finally come together to build sth new, not by burying the past, but by learning from prior mistakes. Can’t wait. Smile


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Post by californiagirl on Tue 1 May - 19:28

@Saracene @Darth Dingbat I think the patricide was his worst crime, but the end of TLJ was a lower point for him in an emotional sense, because he feels his isolation more as Rey shuts the Falcon door on him. Now he's left with a giant mess. The end of the second act of a story tends to be the bleakest for the characters, as Rey and Kylo are separated by a certain someone's bad choices, the FO and Resistance are mostly decimated. etc... A gets worse before it gets better scenario. Kylo's going to suffer more in IX, but more in the sense of bad things happening to him, rather than continuing to do bad things on the level he has been doing them. I think there's some level of awareness that he messed up, but exactly how and what to do about it would take some time (re: the time gap we've all been expecting) to think/mope, which no one in this series has gotten with the compressed timeline of the ST thus far.

Perhaps the act of proclaiming himself lord of all creation is in the past now, but I would think his motivations for doing so would have at least some level of relevance to what would make him step down. That he's all alone without Rey is certainly valid, but it was discussed long ago that Kylo isn't nearly as power-hungry as either he or the audience thinks he is. He's a raging ball of angst and emotions and doesn't have any remotely healthy way to cope with that, and he does the only thing he really has been taught to do, despite the let the past die speech. It's not so much being the fascist dictator as being horribly naive and self-destructive. The Hux thing is more something that will sort of keep him trapped later on down the line. Right now it's mostly Kylo being a sadboy and wanting to fix all his issues with every older institution that wronged him, but he has no clue how and hasn't progressed beyond the "destroy everything" phase. Also I think he was trying to impress Rey, who has never had much in the way of social/political power or influence, the opposite really. Dude has no self-esteem and doesn't full realize Rey came there for HIM, not power or the dark side or whatnot.

Which despite all the issues we might have with Rey or the way she is portrayed or how her story plays out, she at least has a story different than what we've seen before. It's the Skywalkers who have to deal with that struggle time and again with each generation, if to different effect (Luke triumphs, Vader falls until the end, Kylo is figuring things out). It is Kylo dealing with being the legacy child, while Rey is dealing with the opposite, that she wanted to be someone and rely on her family for a sense of purpose, and didn't get that and just has to move on, which most of the audience believes hasn't happened yet. I swear I read or heard this somewhere months ago, but Rey isn't truly tempted by the dark side, outside of the occasional small burst of anger/violence, rather she is tempted specifically by Ben/Kylo himself, which I frankly find more compelling, though I'm sure some will cry how regressive that is or whatever.

Also, while many here don't find her the best-executed character in the ST (because people would FLIP if they realized her arc is tied to being attracted to the Evil Fascist), in the world beyond this forum/fandom, she doesn't get a ton of criticism outside the "Rey is a Mary Sue" types, or those who still troll Rian and comments sections everywhere. She is incredibly popular, she sells all kinds of merch, she has been presented as the most recognizable face of this franchise, she's gotten the most screen time of any character in the trilogy, she means a ton to other people, and yes, women and little girls everywhere, whether we like it or not. Her mere existence, even outside of her actual story, is significant. Plus, as I said, many people still haven't gotten her parents are not important and she isn't destined to be Jedi goddess heroine, so there's that to address in IX as well, even if we've moved past that over here. She's still the main character, even if Kylo is getting increasingly more attention as co-protagonist as well.

Okay, that ended up a lot longer than I had had anticipated it would be!


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Post by Darth_Awakened on Tue 1 May - 19:36

@Mila95 wrote:Imo he'll hit rock bottom when he has nothing and has to confront his mistakes.Killing Han will always be the worst thing he ever did and like Snoke said it split him to the bone and his last conversation with Han probably helped make him realize he needs to be rid of Snoke.But I don't think he actually let himself feel the full regret of killing Han and basically mourn his father.He was still going on about killing the past and holding onto the idea that if he just destroys everything that hurt him and builds something new than that will make things right for him.So I think he needs to let go of that idea and feel the full weight of his choices and that at some point he doesn't have Rey or power or his family or Snoke in his head and he's on his own.And from that he can decide to make things right and earn that Disney happy ending lol
@Mila95

I think that bold is the exact place where Rian put Kylo in that last shot. He basically has achieved all (speaking in the dark side terms) but on the other hand he has NOTHING. The puppy dog face in the end doesn't show me the triumph of EVIL KYLO. Quite the opposite.
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Post by ZioRen on Tue 1 May - 19:45

@Mila95 wrote:Imo he'll hit rock bottom when he has nothing and has to confront his mistakes.Killing Han will always be the worst thing he ever did and like Snoke said it split him to the bone and his last conversation with Han probably helped make him realize he needs to be rid of Snoke.But I don't think he actually let himself feel the full regret of killing Han and basically mourn his father.He was still going on about killing the past and holding onto the idea that if he just destroys everything that hurt him and builds something new than that will make things right for him.So I think he needs to let go of that idea and feel the full weight of his choices and that at some point he doesn't have Rey or power or his family or Snoke in his head and he's on his own.And from that he can decide to make things right and earn that Disney happy ending lol
@Mila95

Kylo's lack of reflection on his family in general is for sure something that needs to be resolved in IX, especially now that Leia is gone. For all he was broken and spared his mother, we never see him really reflect on any of that. Particularly Leia, which I thought was an incredibly glaring hole in TLJ after that dramatic scene of their faceoff toward the start of the movie.

The thing with Kylo's revelation is I don't see him having it without us. For the same reason I don't think Rey and Kylo will be revealed to have been talking to each other over the course of the timeskip in scenes we weren't privy to. So I can't imagine him suddenly thinking "I'm going to destroy this from the inside!" offscreen. Plus, it doesn't jive with what Rian was saying Kylo was by the end of TLJ: a complex villain standing on his own two feet and taking the reigns. At some point, we sort of need to see that "taking the reigns as a complex villain" even if he has a turning point relatively early on in IX.
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Post by Mila95 on Tue 1 May - 20:02

@ZioRen I agree,I can't see that happening offscreen which is why I think some event in IX will trigger it.And yeah I don't think they would make him Supreme Leader without showing him as that for a while. Imo Hux will be there so they can pin the most evil stuff on him like if they want to do another evil superweapon or something but we'll still see Kylo as a big bad for a part of the movie.About the force bond scenes I'm also leaning more on they manage to block it for however long the time skip happens and we get to see onscreen the first time they connect after Crait.

@Darth_Awakened I think that last moment is pretty close but he also still has his power to hold onto and rn I think he'll really try to hold onto that and convince himself it's enough.

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Post by BB-Rey on Tue 1 May - 20:22

I don't think Kylo gets redeemed as clear cut as his Grandfather and full Light Side as many think he will. Instead I think it'll be something in the middle. Something involving Rey. I think they'll be finding the Force further together in a way we've not seen on the big screen yet and how that develops their relationship.

A few reasons:

1. Rick Carter mentions in The Secrets of The Force Awakens that throughout the trilogy we'll rediscover the power of the Force and what it truly means.

2. The PT was about corruption of manipulating everything to one's will and the Sith winning, the OT was about short term Light Balance and the Jedi winning, and that leaves the ST to be the true Balance and unity of Reylo.

3. The First Jedi Temple had this symbol.

Episode IX: Spoilers and Rumors - Page 18 20180510

4. The lightsaber pull in TLJ not only shows Reylo are equal halves of the same coin but that they' were falling into the trap of what put the Force out of Balance long before they were born. The lightsaber came to Rey in TFA because it knew she'd use it for knowledge and defense in that moment. They're both left with nothing .... for now.

5. The Prophecy foretold the end of the Sith but never the of the Dark Side as hinted at in Revenge of the Sith and said in The Last Jedi visual dictionary.
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Post by Kylo Rey on Tue 1 May - 21:09

@ISeeAnIsland wrote:In other Episode IX news (hopefully less traumatic than a time jump), I have no idea if this source is at all reliable, but here's another casting rumor:

http://thathashtagshow.com/2018/04/exclusive-a-second-star-wars-episode-ix-character-description/

Casting director Nina Gold is on the hunt for an “ethnic female”, with a strong preference for an African-American, 18-26 years old, to portray a character by the name of Caro. Caro is described as having a “captivating naturalness and ease to her manner.”  Caro is a “leader and  problem solver, smart with a great sense of humor and a strong will. All this comes to her effortlessly. ”

Reddit already thinks this is for a possible Lando's daughter role. She does sound a bit like a female Lando.
@ISeeAnIsland

This was the same website that had the exclusive of 'Mara Jade in IX', which Matt Martin debunked. They're not reliable.

As for John Boyega's comments, he's currently sporting a high top fade right now, so he has to grow out his hair on the back and sides anyway. i'm assuming we'll get a time jump, but this doesn't really tell us the length or whatever.

@ZioRen One thing they have planned for the ST is that Han's death is supposed to reverberate and have a lasting impact on the two remaining films of the trilogy (from the Art of TLJ book), so I definitely think we'll get some kind of reflection on Kylo's part as Han will have to figure in somehow again in IX. Whether the Hamlet Kylo rumours are true or not, I really do believe his arc will have him being haunted by his mistakes, his family etc etc. Internal suffering, as has been a large part of his arc thus far. It's also a big part of redemption stories which is why I think it'll happen as it's good and organic way to generate sympathy, and like you said, they kind of sidestepped it in TLJ.

And on the whole Benperor vs Renperor debate, I've been thinking about it a lot ever since I watched TLJ, and tried to think about it from a storytelling/structural persepective (i.e. how JJ and Terrio will be approaching it), and with how TPTB keep stressing what stages the characters are in e.g. TLJ was all about adolesence, then they have to move forward to the maturity stage sooner rather than later, which includes Kylo. Time constraints might be another thing to consider in wrapping up the entire Skywalker saga in 2.5ish hours (give or take) which may have an effect, and what may make it easier for JJ and for the audience to buy Kylo's redemption is to have Kylo at least have good intentions even if he's not a perfect ruler so it segues more organically into a possible redemption. Making him full on Renperor would be awful and erase his character development. I just remembered that line about Clone Troopers from Kylo in TFA when he's arguing with Hux, that might be indicative of JJ's mindset.

@BB-Rey I've never seen that Rick Carter quote before! Wow. That's like the biggest hint we've got on the force side of the story and where it might go.


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Post by Darth Dingbat on Tue 1 May - 22:11

@Casey Kanata wrote:@Darth_Dingbat I'd say, like Luke and Kylo had the biggest influence on Rey in TLJ. That Kylo wasn't going to hit rock bottom before he confronted Luke again. Because they were closing out Luke's arc. So Luke and Rey had the biggest influence on Kylo. Alot of these characters have intersecting arcs. So certain points in one character's arc, can't happen until another character intersects with theirs. Kylo couldn't hit rock bottom, until another face off with Luke.
@Casey Kanata

Very true, but my point is more like - why start with something as huge as patricide when you know your character's actual rock bottom is going to be over something comparatively minor. Killing one's own father is a line rarely crossed in fiction or myth, so when a character does something like that, the assumption tends to be he's now irredeemable (which is what most people seemed to think of Kylo post-TFA). But because of other elements of Kylo's characterisation in TFA, I - like many others - was excited by the possibility of seeing him climb his way back to the light after crossing that seemingly unforgivable line.

If the patricide is just another low point in a series of low points, that does dilute its impact, at least for me. And it dilutes the impact of those other low points because you started out with something so huge. Especially when the character is repeatedly hit with some realisation that makes them look visibly shaken and sad, but then doesn't seem to be changed by those shocking realisations. Not enough to count as a major turning point, anyway.

But that's all bygones, and obviously TLJ did not treat Han's death as any unforgivable line that had been crossed. So I'm kind of curious to see what that "rock bottom" is ultimately going to look like, if patricide wasn't enough. The focus of the story is of course Rey and Kylo, so of course it's going to be more about Rey and Kylo - though that brings me back to my original question, why introduce something as big as patricide if your story doesn't have enough spare room to give it proper gravitas. I'd argue that the climax of TFA would have been a perfect turning point as it was about the shock of patricide AND simultaneously about Rey. But as that wasn't it, I'm certainly curious to see what it's going to be.
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Post by SoloSideCousin on Tue 1 May - 22:20

@Casey Kanata wrote:@Darth_Dingbat I'd say, like Luke and Kylo had the biggest influence on Rey in TLJ. That Kylo wasn't going to hit rock bottom before he confronted Luke again. Because they were closing out Luke's arc. So Luke and Rey had the biggest influence on Kylo. Alot of these characters have intersecting arcs. So certain points in one character's arc, can't happen until another character intersects with theirs. Kylo couldn't hit rock bottom, until another face off with Luke.
@Casey Kanata

I basically agree with this. What Luke did to him was basically a gangerous wound or cancer inside of him. The confrontation at the end, with the raw red of Crait being exposed in the most painful way possible, was in many ways the excision of that wound. And the salt, a purifying agent, is scouring that wound, so Kylo/Ben can start to recover.

At the end of that scene, the red on the surface disappears. The wound is already healing. Also, at the end all of Kylo's anger is gone. This is not a man ready to continue his rampage. He is on his knees in a penitent position with the light from the window on him, crying and mourning his lost love *and* his lost father. He is so distraught that he is completely clueless that Hux is already plotting his overthrow. I mean if that wasn't a textbook visual of a rock bottom, penitent moment, I don't know what is. I mean with the light from the window on him, he looks like a painting of a penitent Catholic saint humble before God.  He is not saying "I'm right, no matter what they say" in that moment. He is saying, "OMG, I have been so wrong and now I am lost."
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Post by Moonlight13 on Tue 1 May - 22:23

@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@Casey Kanata wrote:@Darth_Dingbat I'd say, like Luke and Kylo had the biggest influence on Rey in TLJ. That Kylo wasn't going to hit rock bottom before he confronted Luke again. Because they were closing out Luke's arc. So Luke and Rey had the biggest influence on Kylo. Alot of these characters have intersecting arcs. So certain points in one character's arc, can't happen until another character intersects with theirs. Kylo couldn't hit rock bottom, until another face off with Luke.
@Casey Kanata

I basically agree with this. What Luke did to him was basically a gangerous wound or cancer inside of him. The confrontation at the end, with the raw red of Crait being exposed in the most painful way possible, was in many ways the excision of that wound. And the salt, a purifying agent, is scouring that wound, so Kylo/Ben can start to recover.

At the end of that scene, the red on the surface disappears. The wound is already healing. Also, at the end all of Kylo's anger is gone. This is not a man ready to continue his rampage. He is on his knees in a penitent position with the light from the window on him, crying and mourning his lost love *and* his lost father. He is so distraught that he is completely clueless that Hux is already plotting his overthrow. I mean if that wasn't a textbook visual of a rock bottom, penitent moment, I don't know what is. I mean with the light from the window on him, he looks like a painting of a penitent Catholic saint humble before God.  He is not saying "I'm right, no matter what they say" in that moment. He is saying, "OMG, I have been so wrong and now I am lost."
@SoloSideCousin
I saw that too. Smile
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Post by Darth Dingbat on Tue 1 May - 22:28

@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@Casey Kanata wrote:@Darth_Dingbat I'd say, like Luke and Kylo had the biggest influence on Rey in TLJ. That Kylo wasn't going to hit rock bottom before he confronted Luke again. Because they were closing out Luke's arc. So Luke and Rey had the biggest influence on Kylo. Alot of these characters have intersecting arcs. So certain points in one character's arc, can't happen until another character intersects with theirs. Kylo couldn't hit rock bottom, until another face off with Luke.
@Casey Kanata

I basically agree with this. What Luke did to him was basically a gangerous wound or cancer inside of him. The confrontation at the end, with the raw red of Crait being exposed in the most painful way possible, was in many ways the excision of that wound. And the salt, a purifying agent, is scouring that wound, so Kylo/Ben can start to recover.

At the end of that scene, the red on the surface disappears. The wound is already healing. Also, at the end all of Kylo's anger is gone. This is not a man ready to continue his rampage. He is on his knees in a penitent position with the light from the window on him, crying and mourning his lost love *and* his lost father. He is so distraught that he is completely clueless that Hux is already plotting his overthrow. I mean if that wasn't a textbook visual of a rock bottom, penitent moment, I don't know what is. I mean with the light from the window on him, he looks like a painting of a penitent Catholic saint humble before God.  He is not saying "I'm right, no matter what they say" in that moment. He is saying, "OMG, I have been so wrong and now I am lost."
@SoloSideCousin

I've got to agree with this - that moment absolutely strikes me as a "rock bottom" moment, for all the reasons you mention.

I don't know if IX is going to repeat this by taking Kylo's development backward a bit and introducing yet another "rock bottom", but right now, I can't see how any new rock bottom would feel as totally rock-bottom-ish as that one.
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Post by ISeeAnIsland on Tue 1 May - 23:04

@Darth Dingbat wrote:
@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@Casey Kanata wrote:@Darth_Dingbat I'd say, like Luke and Kylo had the biggest influence on Rey in TLJ. That Kylo wasn't going to hit rock bottom before he confronted Luke again. Because they were closing out Luke's arc. So Luke and Rey had the biggest influence on Kylo. Alot of these characters have intersecting arcs. So certain points in one character's arc, can't happen until another character intersects with theirs. Kylo couldn't hit rock bottom, until another face off with Luke.
@Casey Kanata

I basically agree with this. What Luke did to him was basically a gangerous wound or cancer inside of him. The confrontation at the end, with the raw red of Crait being exposed in the most painful way possible, was in many ways the excision of that wound. And the salt, a purifying agent, is scouring that wound, so Kylo/Ben can start to recover.

At the end of that scene, the red on the surface disappears. The wound is already healing. Also, at the end all of Kylo's anger is gone. This is not a man ready to continue his rampage. He is on his knees in a penitent position with the light from the window on him, crying and mourning his lost love *and* his lost father. He is so distraught that he is completely clueless that Hux is already plotting his overthrow. I mean if that wasn't a textbook visual of a rock bottom, penitent moment, I don't know what is. I mean with the light from the window on him, he looks like a painting of a penitent Catholic saint humble before God.  He is not saying "I'm right, no matter what they say" in that moment. He is saying, "OMG, I have been so wrong and now I am lost."
@SoloSideCousin

I've got to agree with this - that moment absolutely strikes me as a "rock bottom" moment, for all the reasons you mention.

I don't know if IX is going to repeat this by taking Kylo's development backward a bit and introducing yet another "rock bottom", but right now, I can't see how any new rock bottom would feel as totally rock-bottom-ish as that one.
@Darth Dingbat

Given how many parallels there are in the Reylo arc with Pride & Prejudice and Jane Eyre, I really think that his Crait meltdown was Kylo's version of Darcy's angry letter after Lizzie's rejection. (Rochester didn't really have an equivalent of this after Jane discovered The Crazy Wife in the Attic, but there are tons of other parallels to that story, as well.)

Things looked dire in P&P and JE after the "breakups"--similarly to how they look after CLODOR. But Kylo is in kind of a similar position to Darcy and Rochester here. Kylo and Rey will spend some time apart/avoiding each other, during which he'll start to get his s*** together (although I wouldn't be surprised if he has a period of deep depression during the time skip), and he'll already be well into the process of changing by the time that he and Rey encounter each other again.

Let's not forget that he won't have Snoke in his head for the first time in his life. He might be completely broken right now, but without Snoke, it's going to be easier for him to make better choices. Doesn't mean that Hux will let him, but I think he's going to try to be a good leader.
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Episode IX: Spoilers and Rumors - Page 18 Empty Re: Episode IX: Spoilers and Rumors

Post by Kylo Rey on Tue 1 May - 23:58

Given how many parallels there are in the Reylo arc with Pride & Prejudice and Jane Eyre, I really think that his Crait meltdown was Kylo's version of Darcy's angry letter after Lizzie's rejection.  (Rochester didn't really have an equivalent of this after Jane discovered The Crazy Wife in the Attic, but there are tons of other parallels to that story, as well.)

Things looked dire in P&P and JE after the "breakups"--similarly to how they look after CLODOR. But Kylo is in kind of a similar position to Darcy and Rochester here. Kylo and Rey will spend some time apart/avoiding each other, during which he'll start to get his s*** together (although I wouldn't be surprised if he has a period of deep depression during the time skip), and he'll already be well into the process of changing by the time that he and Rey encounter each other again.

Let's not forget that he won't have Snoke in his head for the first time in his life. He might be completely broken right now, but without Snoke, it's going to be easier for him to make better choices. Doesn't mean that Hux will let him, but I think he's going to try to be a good leader.
@ISeeAnIsland

Right on. I actually think Kylo is a mix of Darcy, Rochester and Heathcliff, but mostly the latter two because those two absolutely embody Byronic heroes (which Darcy really isn't and of course Kylo's own darker tendencies - 'mad, bad and dangerous to know'). He has the passion of Rochester, Heathcliff's self-destructive and selfish tendencies, and Darcy's arrogance/social status/class difference with love interest. If they're going to continue with the JE and P&P parallels, then looking at the latter half of those stories could potentially be a really good template for IX. Most SW fandom is thinking of this in terms of Vader (and why Kylo being redeemed would be a Vader rehash), but Kylo IS a young, byronic hero so maybe that is the way to look forward. Boxing him into the Vader template doesn't even fit in with his character or arc. Interestingly, Byronic heroes tend to be quite divisive.

Moving forward with the P&P template could possibly mean he carries out some huge self-sacrifice with no expectation of anything in return and not thinking himself worthy. So in essence, complete selfless love and something shudderingly romantic (for Rey). Just like Darcy's letter to Lizzie and how it was a turning point in their relationship. It may also be the only way to disavow the 'he's manipulative/simply wants Rey for her power/doesn't care for her' notion. And then the separation of Rey and Kylo could play into the whole 'absence makes the heart grow fonder' a la Jane and Rochester (who also happen to have an almost mystical-like, spiritual bond).

Btw, I still can't believe they're drawing parallels to these kind of stories in freakin' SW of all places. Got to love female gaze storytelling. Rian even called SW a 'period piece in space' in lieu of science fiction or futurism (his own words).

(Luke is definitely Lady Catherine de Bourgh Very Happy).


Last edited by Kylo Rey on Wed 2 May - 0:09; edited 1 time in total
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Post by BB-Rey on Wed 2 May - 0:02

@Kylo Rey

It's really glossed over. It lasts for a brief second when J.J. is talking about story structure.

It makes sense for things to not be as clear cut Light and Dark from what we saw in the previous two trilogies where the Force was wielded in ways that isn't in it's full true nature.

Even the Journal of the Whills hints at this, which was included in the prologue to The Force Awakens novel.

" First comes the day, then comes the night. After the Darkness, shines through the Light. The difference, they say, is only made right; By the resolving of Grey through refined Jedi sight."
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Post by Moonlight13 on Wed 2 May - 0:04

@Kylo Rey wrote:
Given how many parallels there are in the Reylo arc with Pride & Prejudice and Jane Eyre, I really think that his Crait meltdown was Kylo's version of Darcy's angry letter after Lizzie's rejection.  (Rochester didn't really have an equivalent of this after Jane discovered The Crazy Wife in the Attic, but there are tons of other parallels to that story, as well.)

Things looked dire in P&P and JE after the "breakups"--similarly to how they look after CLODOR. But Kylo is in kind of a similar position to Darcy and Rochester here. Kylo and Rey will spend some time apart/avoiding each other, during which he'll start to get his s*** together (although I wouldn't be surprised if he has a period of deep depression during the time skip), and he'll already be well into the process of changing by the time that he and Rey encounter each other again.

Let's not forget that he won't have Snoke in his head for the first time in his life. He might be completely broken right now, but without Snoke, it's going to be easier for him to make better choices. Doesn't mean that Hux will let him, but I think he's going to try to be a good leader.
@ISeeAnIsland

Right on. I actually think Kylo is a mix of Darcy, Rochester and Heathcliff, but mostly the latter two because those two absolutely embody Byronic heroes (which Darcy really isn't and of course Kylo's own darker tendencies - 'mad, bad and dangerous to know'). He has the passion of Rochester, Heathcliff's self-destructive and selfish tendencies, and Darcy's arrogance/social status/class difference with love interest. If they're going to continue with the JE and P&P parallels, then looking at the latter half of those stories could potentially be a really good template for IX. Most SW fandom is thinking of this in terms of Vader (and why Kylo being redeemed would be a Vader rehash), but Kylo IS a young, byronic hero so maybe that is the way to look forward. Boxing him into the Vader template doesn't even fit in with his character or arc. Interestingly, Byronic heroes tend to be quite divisive.

Moving forward with the P&P template could possibly mean he carries out some huge self-sacrifice with no expectation of anything in return and not thinking himself worthy. So in essence, complete selfless love and something shudderingly romantic (for Rey). It may also be the only way to disavow the 'he's manipulative/simply wants Rey for her power/doesn't care for her' notion.

Btw, I still can't believe they're drawing parallels to these kind of stories in freakin' SW of all places. Got to love female gaze storytelling. Rian even called SW a 'period piece in space' in lieu of science fiction or futurism (his own words).

(Luke is definitely Lady Catherine de Bourgh Very Happy).
@Kylo Rey
Do you think we could see something like this? Laughing
http://eggsywafflex.tumblr.com/post/173389024838/star-warsjane-eyre-parallel-rey-hearing-bens
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Episode IX: Spoilers and Rumors - Page 18 Empty Re: Episode IX: Spoilers and Rumors

Post by ISeeAnIsland on Wed 2 May - 0:24

@Kylo Rey wrote:
Given how many parallels there are in the Reylo arc with Pride & Prejudice and Jane Eyre, I really think that his Crait meltdown was Kylo's version of Darcy's angry letter after Lizzie's rejection.  (Rochester didn't really have an equivalent of this after Jane discovered The Crazy Wife in the Attic, but there are tons of other parallels to that story, as well.)

Things looked dire in P&P and JE after the "breakups"--similarly to how they look after CLODOR. But Kylo is in kind of a similar position to Darcy and Rochester here. Kylo and Rey will spend some time apart/avoiding each other, during which he'll start to get his s*** together (although I wouldn't be surprised if he has a period of deep depression during the time skip), and he'll already be well into the process of changing by the time that he and Rey encounter each other again.

Let's not forget that he won't have Snoke in his head for the first time in his life. He might be completely broken right now, but without Snoke, it's going to be easier for him to make better choices. Doesn't mean that Hux will let him, but I think he's going to try to be a good leader.
@ISeeAnIsland

Right on. I actually think Kylo is a mix of Darcy, Rochester and Heathcliff, but mostly the latter two because those two absolutely embody Byronic heroes (which Darcy really isn't and of course Kylo's own darker tendencies - 'mad, bad and dangerous to know'). He has the passion of Rochester, Heathcliff's self-destructive and selfish tendencies, and Darcy's arrogance/social status/class difference with love interest. If they're going to continue with the JE and P&P parallels, then looking at the latter half of those stories could potentially be a really good template for IX. Most SW fandom is thinking of this in terms of Vader (and why Kylo being redeemed would be a Vader rehash), but Kylo IS a young, byronic hero so maybe that is the way to look forward. Boxing him into the Vader template doesn't even fit in with his character or arc. Interestingly, Byronic heroes tend to be quite divisive.

Moving forward with the P&P template could possibly mean he carries out some huge self-sacrifice with no expectation of anything in return and not thinking himself worthy. So in essence, complete selfless love and something shudderingly romantic (for Rey). Just like Darcy's letter to Lizzie and how it was a turning point in their relationship. It may also be the only way to disavow the 'he's manipulative/simply wants Rey for her power/doesn't care for her' notion. And then the separation of Rey and Kylo could play into the whole 'absence makes the heart grow fonder' a la Jane and Rochester (who also happen to have an almost mystical-like, spiritual bond).

Btw, I still can't believe they're drawing parallels to these kind of stories in freakin' SW of all places. Got to love female gaze storytelling. Rian even called SW a 'period piece in space' in lieu of science fiction or futurism (his own words).

(Luke is definitely Lady Catherine de Bourgh Very Happy).
@Kylo Rey

I think someone else here came up with the idea originally, but there's a really easy way to combine the anticipated-Hux-coup with Kylo's-selfless-sacrifice... Have Hux plan some attack on the Resistance or a sure-to-be-successful assassination attempt on Rey that only Hux, Kylo, and maybe a few other people know about. Then have Kylo sabotage that attempt in a way that Hux is going to find out about it, but Rey won't even realize what's happening. You then get Kylo losing his power as Supreme Leader and probably putting his life on the line as a traitor--setting himself up for execution, and Rey is none-the-wiser (at least initially) how close she came to death.
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Episode IX: Spoilers and Rumors - Page 18 Empty Re: Episode IX: Spoilers and Rumors

Post by Dar-ren19 on Wed 2 May - 1:32

I think he’s yet to hit rock bottom.
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Post by Saracene on Wed 2 May - 2:24

@californiagirl I tend to agree that Kylo's "rock bottom" is going to be about bad things happening to him, rather than him making yet another catastrophically bad decision. I think that his Crait meltdown is going to be the last display of its kind.

@Darth Dingbat I'm pretty sure that Kylo won't be the main character in a sense of having most screentime, most of our POV will still be with the heroes. But in terms of personal arc and rich character drama, he's clearly no. 1 character to watch.
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Episode IX: Spoilers and Rumors - Page 18 Empty Re: Episode IX: Spoilers and Rumors

Post by SoloSideCousin on Wed 2 May - 9:25

@Moonlight13 wrote:
@Kylo Rey wrote:
Given how many parallels there are in the Reylo arc with Pride & Prejudice and Jane Eyre, I really think that his Crait meltdown was Kylo's version of Darcy's angry letter after Lizzie's rejection.  (Rochester didn't really have an equivalent of this after Jane discovered The Crazy Wife in the Attic, but there are tons of other parallels to that story, as well.)

Things looked dire in P&P and JE after the "breakups"--similarly to how they look after CLODOR. But Kylo is in kind of a similar position to Darcy and Rochester here. Kylo and Rey will spend some time apart/avoiding each other, during which he'll start to get his s*** together (although I wouldn't be surprised if he has a period of deep depression during the time skip), and he'll already be well into the process of changing by the time that he and Rey encounter each other again.

Let's not forget that he won't have Snoke in his head for the first time in his life. He might be completely broken right now, but without Snoke, it's going to be easier for him to make better choices. Doesn't mean that Hux will let him, but I think he's going to try to be a good leader.
@ISeeAnIsland

Right on. I actually think Kylo is a mix of Darcy, Rochester and Heathcliff, but mostly the latter two because those two absolutely embody Byronic heroes (which Darcy really isn't and of course Kylo's own darker tendencies - 'mad, bad and dangerous to know'). He has the passion of Rochester, Heathcliff's self-destructive and selfish tendencies, and Darcy's arrogance/social status/class difference with love interest. If they're going to continue with the JE and P&P parallels, then looking at the latter half of those stories could potentially be a really good template for IX. Most SW fandom is thinking of this in terms of Vader (and why Kylo being redeemed would be a Vader rehash), but Kylo IS a young, byronic hero so maybe that is the way to look forward. Boxing him into the Vader template doesn't even fit in with his character or arc. Interestingly, Byronic heroes tend to be quite divisive.

Moving forward with the P&P template could possibly mean he carries out some huge self-sacrifice with no expectation of anything in return and not thinking himself worthy. So in essence, complete selfless love and something shudderingly romantic (for Rey). It may also be the only way to disavow the 'he's manipulative/simply wants Rey for her power/doesn't care for her' notion.

Btw, I still can't believe they're drawing parallels to these kind of stories in freakin' SW of all places. Got to love female gaze storytelling. Rian even called SW a 'period piece in space' in lieu of science fiction or futurism (his own words).

(Luke is definitely Lady Catherine de Bourgh Very Happy).
@Kylo Rey
Do you think we could see something like this? Laughing
http://eggsywafflex.tumblr.com/post/173389024838/star-warsjane-eyre-parallel-rey-hearing-bens
@Moonlight13

That's a fan thing isn't it? Has anyone ever done the headphone things with the real movie, because there are actually whispering. I wonder if there is anything in there.
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Episode IX: Spoilers and Rumors - Page 18 Empty Re: Episode IX: Spoilers and Rumors

Post by AhsokaTano on Wed 2 May - 13:27

Ok everyone 4 chan strikes again - this time really hope this stuff is true because it’s good stuff if it is - posting it here though prob should be in a  crack thread .Am keeping my fingers crossed it’s true - all of it. Lol!

Episode IX: Spoilers and Rumors - Page 18 4d642110
Episode IX: Spoilers and Rumors - Page 18 A9a1cc10
Episode IX: Spoilers and Rumors - Page 18 9e11d310
Episode IX: Spoilers and Rumors - Page 18 5a0d5310

What do we think ? Nonsense or true ? Seems too good to be true .
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Episode IX: Spoilers and Rumors - Page 18 Empty Re: Episode IX: Spoilers and Rumors

Post by Night Huntress on Wed 2 May - 14:07

Nonsense - all of it if Eh bien
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Post by AhsokaTano on Wed 2 May - 14:20

@ Night Huntress
Yeah it prob is faf ( as it’s 4 chan) but they were right about Malta which just looked up - lucky guess or maybe they know about filming :

https://www.visitmalta.com/en/a-brief-history-of-filming


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Post by Darth_Awakened on Wed 2 May - 14:21

MWAHAHAHA!

I think the crack thread for IX should be opened ASAP!

It seems the crack is starting to pour.
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