Episode IX: Spoilers and Rumors

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Re: Episode IX: Spoilers and Rumors

Post by special_cases on Sat 05 May 2018, 10:38 am

@Night Huntress thanks for the reply. So you think we will see that he is trying to change FO right at the beginning of the episode?
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Re: Episode IX: Spoilers and Rumors

Post by Night Huntress on Sat 05 May 2018, 10:48 am

@special_cases wrote:@Night Huntress thanks for the reply. So you think we will see that he is trying to change FO right at the beginning of the episode?
@special_cases

depends on the time-skip, but I think they will show him early making decisions that are more beneficial for the people living under the FO and less for the FO as the military organization. And that will enrage Hux even more- I would like to see a fight between them where Kylo uses FO resources to support the systems whereas Hux want to built more weapons etc.

I don't agree with some opinions that as the mighty SUPREME LEADER he should know everything happening in his "Empire".
That's not possible- not even Snoke or the Emperor were aware about everything under their rule...und Kylo/Ben is much less of a controlled and organized leader. So I wouldn't be surprised if Hux or some other FO people will built something without Kylo knowing.

But that's all just my personal headcanon

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Re: Episode IX: Spoilers and Rumors

Post by ZioRen on Sat 05 May 2018, 12:15 pm

@special_cases wrote:Okay, so if you guys think that Kylo won't do anything bad anymore in IX, what will happen with FO during time skip and in what state FO will be while Kylo is SL? Do you think the redemption will be obvious in first act and the Crait stuff was the last time we saw Kylo making bad decisions? I'm trying to outline a movie with such scenario in my head (because I love such scenario) and I can't see it working like this.
@special_cases

Agreed. I can't buy Benperor. Kylo may be a protagonist/antagonist, but the antagonist part still stands going into IX. There's no tension if he's going for reformation and is a good guy immediately in IX.

I do think he'll be presented as good in comparison to Hux, though, and that Hux will do terrible things behind his back that Kylo will be angry about when he discovers. That will be where the light in Ben Solo still shines through from the start. For example, and I've said it here before, I think Hux will try to get permission to build another Starkiller/Death Star type weapon and Kylo will emphatically deny him. And I think Hux will take initiative to attack the Resistance, particularly where Rey is, and Kylo will be furious. Basically, he'll continue on as Kylo's foil and show the difference between their hearts to emphasize Kylo still being very much redeemable.
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Re: Episode IX: Spoilers and Rumors

Post by snufkin on Sat 05 May 2018, 1:02 pm

The original sniping argument with him and Hux is the 'personal interests' line which is has been his MO through two movies. He's only interested in the FO in that he wants to burn everything down about his past because of how he was hurt. And he didn't want to have Rey join him as Co-Supreme Leader of the First Order, it was to start over with something new. But she dumped him and Supreme Leader was his back-up plan, especially to go after the Resistance and his uncle because he thought he was going to destroy it all. Which went pretty badly for him. I don't expect him to be showing up to cut ribbons at new animal shelters. But at this point, what past is there left for him to kill? Snoke, Luke, and Han are all gone. It's up in the air what they'll do with Leia (and he couldn't fire on mommy when put on the spot), the Jedi are dunzo despite fandom conspiracy theories about Rey's Kindergarten Class, Resistance isn't even enough people to make for a church choir, and NR no longer exists. There's going to be a struggle between him and Hux and Co because their whole motivation is to restore the Empire and their rightful place in it and having him at the top where he's not ideological, is going to be a problem.
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Re: Episode IX: Spoilers and Rumors

Post by special_cases on Sat 05 May 2018, 1:25 pm

@Night Huntress wrote:
@special_cases wrote:@Night Huntress thanks for the reply. So you think we will see that he is trying to change FO right at the beginning of the episode?
@special_cases

depends on the time-skip, but I think they will show him early making decisions that are more beneficial for the people living under the FO and less for the FO as the military organization. And that will enrage Hux even more- I would like to see a fight between them where Kylo uses FO resources to support the systems whereas Hux want to built more weapons etc.

I don't agree with some opinions that as the mighty SUPREME LEADER he should know everything happening in his "Empire".
That's not possible- not even Snoke or the Emperor were aware about everything under their rule...und Kylo/Ben is much less of a controlled and organized leader. So I wouldn't be surprised if Hux or some other FO people will built something without Kylo knowing.

But that's all just my personal headcanon

@Night Huntress

I agree that Kylo can't know everything, I can see something like this in the movie. It can be the reason for drama between Rey and Kylo if she doesn't know whether she can believe in him or not.

@ZioRen wrote:
@special_cases wrote:Okay, so if you guys think that Kylo won't do anything bad anymore in IX, what will happen with FO during time skip and in what state FO will be while Kylo is SL? Do you think the redemption will be obvious in first act and the Crait stuff was the last time we saw Kylo making bad decisions? I'm trying to outline a movie with such scenario in my head (because I love such scenario) and I can't see it working like this.
@special_cases

Agreed. I can't buy Benperor. Kylo may be a protagonist/antagonist, but the antagonist part still stands going into IX. There's no tension if he's going for reformation and is a good guy immediately in IX.

I do think he'll be presented as good in comparison to Hux, though, and that Hux will do terrible things behind his back that Kylo will be angry about when he discovers. That will be where the light in Ben Solo still shines through from the start. For example, and I've said it here before, I think Hux will try to get permission to build another Starkiller/Death Star type weapon and Kylo will emphatically deny him. And I think Hux will take initiative to attack the Resistance, particularly where Rey is, and Kylo will be furious. Basically, he'll continue on as Kylo's foil and show the difference between their hearts to emphasize Kylo still being very much redeemable.
@ZioRen

The contrast with Hux is spot on, but the burning question what will be happening with FO during time-skip and in what state the Galaxy will be. I have zero ideas about this.
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Re: Episode IX: Spoilers and Rumors

Post by ZioRen on Sat 05 May 2018, 1:54 pm

@special_cases

The way I see it, the state of the galaxy has to still be bad enough that good guy Resistance has a reason to still exist and be rebuilding. So Benperor doing good for the galaxy is out of the cards in my opinion. Even if he's better than what could be, he'll still be a force that needs to go down alongside the whole First Order before he has his change of heart.
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Re: Episode IX: Spoilers and Rumors

Post by Saracene on Sat 05 May 2018, 4:41 pm

@special_cases wrote:Okay, so if you guys think that Kylo won't do anything bad anymore in IX, what will happen with FO during time skip and in what state FO will be while Kylo is SL? Do you think the redemption will be obvious in first act and the Crait stuff was the last time we saw Kylo making bad decisions? I'm trying to outline a movie with such scenario in my head (because I love such scenario) and I can't see it working like this.
@special_cases

To be honest, I expect them to give as much in-depth information about the larger state of the galaxy and politics as in the previous episodes, i.e. almost nothing outside of broadest descriptions. Like, the FO is now fully in charge and rules supreme, but there's a growing Resistance blah blah.

If the FO already took control of most of the territories by force at the start of TLJ against the wishes of people who live there, and Kylo wants to rule these territories, then you can't really reinvent your military power into something more benevolent. Like some already mentioned, he might draw a line at using yet another weapon of mass destruction (it could also work as a sort of wink to the audience, nope we won't build yet another Death Star).
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Re: Episode IX: Spoilers and Rumors

Post by DeeBee on Sun 06 May 2018, 12:16 am

I'm loving this conversation about SL Kylo/Ben at the start of IX and what's posible, and what it would mean. It's something I am trying to form a picture of in my mind too @special_cases.
I can see pros and cons for starting with Renperor or Benperor... Hmm..
It's a toughie.. The first order was the one thing Kylo/Ben didn't list wanting to destroy in that speech of his to Rey... Maybe he does.. but for me this is up in the air..
I'm not sure what Kylo/Ben wants now he is SL - he was so focused on destroying Luke and the resistance.. and he is so full of regret at the end of TLJ... what will he do next?!  I think it's pretty up in the air where we will find the character at the start of IX.

I don't want to see Kylo/Ben doing stuff I have to forgive him for! lol. Enough!

I'll throw this out there: Is it possible to have IX open with Kylo/Ben as SL but also as neither SL Renperor nor Benperor?  I mean, we could find Kylo/Ben the SL is stuck, unable to move in a direction...  not doing anything bad, nor good. I could see IX opening with depressed Kylo/Ben being SL in name only - depressed and grieving for all the loss he has experienced in his life so far, trying to process the trauma and confronting Luke, potential grief related to his mother passing away during the time jump, pining for Rey (awh),  the pressure and demands of taking on the SL role, knowing Hux must be preparing to overthrow him and surrounded by enemies.. etc.
Kylo/Ben could be lost about what direction he needs to head in now and what to do and  I can't say I'd blame him! he's had a lot to deal with! Phew!
What choices will he make now he is free to choose? (no Snoke!)..  

Having started with a stuck SL Kylo/Ben, we can see him make a decision to turn away from evil - and act on this.. If I've understood correctly (and I'm no expert!) for his redemption arc to work, we need to see this.

A while ago, in the predictions for IX thread, there was a diagram about movie romances as a three act structure.
[this thread] and KK was quoted as saying “There's no question that this is set up as a trilogy, and that three-act structure of the set-up, the conflict, and the resolution very much is what we have planned.”  
Here's the structure (I believe it was orginially shared by Frolickingfizzgig):

Love me a visual aid! lol!
The end of TLJ was the end of the second act. The break up and darkest moment.
The start of the third act is the start of the 'winning you back' phase.
So I'm thinking IX will start with a positive slow trajectory toward reconciliation and a coming together of Rey and Kylo/Ben.
I think more conflict between them would backtrack on TLJ. But I'm sure there will be drama and conflict it will come from outside the relationship.
Thoughts anyone?
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Re: Episode IX: Spoilers and Rumors

Post by Saracene on Sun 06 May 2018, 1:13 am

While I don't believe in Benperor I think it would be bloody hilarious to have a SW version of "What did the Romans do for us" from Monty Python's Life of Brian Laughing Laughing With Poe taking John Cleese's spot.
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Re: Episode IX: Spoilers and Rumors

Post by YeeRees on Sun 06 May 2018, 1:51 am

I’m expecting Episode IX to begin with Kylo Ren Supreme Leader of the First Order firmly in villain mode with the scroll saying the First Order have spent the last (add number of years) tightening their hold on the galaxy. They didn’t waste time manoeuvring him into that position only to throw it away without some pay off. There will be some significant planets/systems that refuse to submit, and that’s where the Resistance come in. I don’t expect Kylo’s actions during the time jump to be elaborated on much or be anything worse than we’ve already seen from him.

As I understand it from the Visual Dictionaries and other canon sources, Hux is in charge of the scientific research section of the First Order. I think it was under his watch that light speed tracking was developed, building on research done during the Empire Era. For this reason, I’m expecting Hux to have an ace up his sleeve in regards to some devastating secret weapon. I doubt it will be another Death Star/Starkiller Base after the criticism of rehashing. I imagine they’ll use something relatable to our world like something chemical or biological. If Kylo is going to be redeemed they need to reinforce that there are lines he won’t cross. Hux should be the one ready to do whatever it takes to get the remaining galaxy to submit to the First Order and eliminate all personal threats standing between him and the job he really wants.

I’m not personally convinced JJ will bring much nuance to the good versus evil fight. I think the line has been drawn as far as who is on the right side and who is on the wrong side, even with Rian’s halfhearted attempts to muddy the waters with DJ and the Canto Bight stuff. I’m not really expecting much depth on the force side of things either. Balance is pretty much where Rey is already at, at least in terms of how it’s been defined in the past. She has already moved beyond Luke because she has faced her failures and greatest fear. Kylo/Ben remains a possible stumbling block but she has shown she is strong enough to set aside her own personal desires and follow the will of the force. Some conflict must remain or else she would be fairly static in Episode IX. I’m not sure JJ is going to set her against her Resistance friends by taking Kylo’s side though. She more or less did that with Luke in TLJ. I know some people want Poe to be an antagonist to her, I’m just not sure I’m seeing it given how he’s portrayed in the comic series and how we are meant to accept that he learned his lesson about leadership by the end of TLJ.


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Re: Episode IX: Spoilers and Rumors

Post by Darth_Awakened on Sun 06 May 2018, 3:55 am

@YeeRees wrote:I’m expecting Episode IX to begin with Kylo Ren Supreme Leader of the First Order firmly in villain mode with the scroll saying the First Order have spent the last (add number of years) tightening their hold on the galaxy. They didn’t waste time manoeuvring him into that position only to throw it away without some pay off. There will be some significant planets/systems that refuse to submit, and that’s where the Resistance come in. I don’t expect Kylo’s actions during the time jump to be elaborated on much or be anything worse than we’ve already seen from him.

As I understand it from the Visual Dictionaries and other canon sources, Hux is in charge of the scientific research section of the First Order. I think it was under his watch that light speed tracking was developed, building on research done during the Empire Era. For this reason, I’m expecting Hux to have an ace up his sleeve in regards to some devastating secret weapon. I doubt it will be another Death Star/Starkiller Base after the criticism of rehashing. I imagine they’ll use something relatable to our world like something chemical or biological. If Kylo is going to be redeemed they need to reinforce that there are lines he won’t cross. Hux should be the one ready to do whatever it takes to get the remaining galaxy to submit to the First Order and eliminate all personal threats standing between him and the job he really wants.

I’m not personally convinced JJ will bring much nuance to the good versus evil fight. I think the line has been drawn as far as who is on the right side and who is on the wrong side, even with Rian’s halfhearted attempts to muddy the waters with DJ and the Canto Bight stuff. I’m not really expecting much depth on the force side of things either. Balance is pretty much where Rey is already at, at least in terms of how it’s been defined in the past. She has already moved beyond Luke because she has faced her failures and greatest fear. Kylo/Ben remains a possible stumbling block but she has shown she is strong enough to set aside her own personal desires and follow the will of the force. Some conflict must remain or else she would be fairly static in Episode IX. I’m not sure JJ is going to set her against her Resistance friends by taking Kylo’s side though. She more or less did that with Luke in TLJ. I know some people want Poe to be an antagonist to her, I’m just not sure I’m seeing it given how he’s portrayed in the comic series and how we are meant to accept that he learned his lesson about leadership by the end of TLJ.


@YeeRees

It's probably very rational way to see it in general. But somehow after I saw what they did with TLJ (I've never dreamed they could pull Luke thinking about killing his nephew in his sleep) I think we can speculate about much more bold possible scenarios for IX.

Already balanced Rey, Kylo in a villain mode and Poe as a wise Resistance leader (although the latter is very possible if they don't recast Leia), just throw in some Ewoks and you'll end with the most boring thing ever.

Nothing personal, just my 2 cents.
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Re: Episode IX: Spoilers and Rumors

Post by Saracene on Sun 06 May 2018, 4:03 am

Rey's conflicted feelings about Kylo is pretty much the only source of personal drama and conflict she has for the last episode. If they don't influence her actions in the slightest and she just remains detached and serenely following the will of the force (which is anyway not articulated anywhere in the film and is a pure novel addition), she'll be one boring girl to watch.
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Re: Episode IX: Spoilers and Rumors

Post by SoloSideCousin on Sun 06 May 2018, 4:09 am

@Darth_Awakened wrote:
@YeeRees wrote:I’m expecting Episode IX to begin with Kylo Ren Supreme Leader of the First Order firmly in villain mode with the scroll saying the First Order have spent the last (add number of years) tightening their hold on the galaxy. They didn’t waste time manoeuvring him into that position only to throw it away without some pay off. There will be some significant planets/systems that refuse to submit, and that’s where the Resistance come in. I don’t expect Kylo’s actions during the time jump to be elaborated on much or be anything worse than we’ve already seen from him.

As I understand it from the Visual Dictionaries and other canon sources, Hux is in charge of the scientific research section of the First Order. I think it was under his watch that light speed tracking was developed, building on research done during the Empire Era. For this reason, I’m expecting Hux to have an ace up his sleeve in regards to some devastating secret weapon. I doubt it will be another Death Star/Starkiller Base after the criticism of rehashing. I imagine they’ll use something relatable to our world like something chemical or biological. If Kylo is going to be redeemed they need to reinforce that there are lines he won’t cross. Hux should be the one ready to do whatever it takes to get the remaining galaxy to submit to the First Order and eliminate all personal threats standing between him and the job he really wants.

I’m not personally convinced JJ will bring much nuance to the good versus evil fight. I think the line has been drawn as far as who is on the right side and who is on the wrong side, even with Rian’s halfhearted attempts to muddy the waters with DJ and the Canto Bight stuff. I’m not really expecting much depth on the force side of things either. Balance is pretty much where Rey is already at, at least in terms of how it’s been defined in the past. She has already moved beyond Luke because she has faced her failures and greatest fear. Kylo/Ben remains a possible stumbling block but she has shown she is strong enough to set aside her own personal desires and follow the will of the force. Some conflict must remain or else she would be fairly static in Episode IX. I’m not sure JJ is going to set her against her Resistance friends by taking Kylo’s side though. She more or less did that with Luke in TLJ. I know some people want Poe to be an antagonist to her, I’m just not sure I’m seeing it given how he’s portrayed in the comic series and how we are meant to accept that he learned his lesson about leadership by the end of TLJ.


@YeeRees

It's probably very rational way to see it in general. But somehow after I saw what they did with TLJ (I've never dreamed they could pull Luke thinking about killing his nephew in his sleep) I think we can speculate about much more bold possible scenarios for IX.

Already balanced Rey, Kylo in a villain mode and Poe as a wise Resistance  leader (although the latter is very possible if they don't recast Leia), just throw in some Ewoks and you'll end with the most boring thing ever.

Nothing personal, just my 2 cents.
@Darth_Awakened

Yeah, something has got to be shaken up there for drama' s sake. Rian did almost-murderer-Luke (something no one believed could happen) and the Reylo "sex" scene in the hut along with tons of other sexual imagery, so JJ is going to go farther. JJ was burned by the criticism for TFA being safe.  He will want to redeem himself now that he has another chance.
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Re: Episode IX: Spoilers and Rumors

Post by Dar-ren19 on Sun 06 May 2018, 6:27 am

One thing we need to remember...Kylo didn’t actually mention the First Order in his litany of things to burn down. I wonder if Rey noticed that exclusion Wink

Yes, JJ won’t want IX to be branded as safe yet again, but how far CAN he go? His main problem IS boredom about 1/3 way into the movie...so something jarring will have to happen by then. Also, we need to remember that this is SW and Leia’s Patent Project (the Resistance) will always have the upper hand (and be the crowd favorite), so whatever infighting we see will pretty much be confined to the FO (which was how Rian ended TLJ - yep, for a reason)....
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Re: Episode IX: Spoilers and Rumors

Post by Mila95 on Sun 06 May 2018, 7:13 am

I feel like if the resistance characters will have a decent amount of screentime in IX then they need to have some conflict.There's not much left if all they have is getting along and fighting the FO.I wouldn't mind if the resistance was background noise tbh but I doubt that will be the case considering Finn is one of the main characters and Poe got promoted to one and Rey will be around them at least for a while so I think some type of conflict will happen there.

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Re: Episode IX: Spoilers and Rumors

Post by Kessel on Sun 06 May 2018, 8:44 am

@Saracene wrote:Rey's conflicted feelings about Kylo is pretty much the only source of personal drama and conflict she has for the last episode. If they don't influence her actions in the slightest and she just remains detached and serenely following the will of the force (which is anyway not articulated anywhere in the film and is a pure novel addition), she'll be one boring girl to watch.
@Saracene

Exactly. And if Rey’s conflict and personal drama are over and she’s now a perfect, collected Jedi happily hanging out with the Beautiful Friendship Gang, Kylo will completely steal the show as he’ll be the character delivering all the drama and nuance.

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Re: Episode IX: Spoilers and Rumors

Post by YeeRees on Sun 06 May 2018, 8:56 am

There has got to be some conflict for Rey, for sure. There is the ‘complicated enemies’ development for one thing. But apart from looking a bit forlorn at the end of TLJ, she seemed to be happy with the choices she’s made. Rey appears fully onboard with the Resistance, proudly telling Luke she is with them and when she decides to go to Kylo it’s because she thinks ‘this might be how we win’. We being the Resistance, which is shown to be her primary concern when the fleet is being destroyed. Would I be interested in seeing conflict there? For sure, I just haven’t seen Rey struggling with the Resistance side of things so far. I can’t see JJ setting her against Finn when they barely had any screen time together in the last film. I also can’t see them making Poe any worse than he was in TLJ.

I suppose I’m just not as enthused about JJ directing Episode IX as some people are. I liked TFA well enough but preferred TLJ. I think JJ is comfortable with nostalgia, probably too comfortable judging by his handling of the Star Trek franchise and what he did with TFA. He did some bold things and he does have a lot of ‘cool ideas’ but he is way too attached to the mystery box. I fully expect him to make some bold choices in Episode IX because he does have an eye for the big pop culture moments like the scene where Kylo killed Han. He doesn’t really mine the emotional seams beyond the thrill of the moment. For example, I cried at the original Kirk and Spock moment where Spock died in Wrath of Khan but JJ left me cold with the reverse Spock and Kirk death in STID. I also would have preferred the deleted scene of Kylo on the Falcon in TFA to be left in because beyond what AD and HF brought to that death scene, the emotional investment in the father and son relationship just wasn’t there. That’s the way I saw it, anyway.
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Re: Episode IX: Spoilers and Rumors

Post by Apriljandy on Sun 06 May 2018, 9:00 am

I thought the will of the Force was always to bring Ben and Rey together, atleast, that's what I understood from TLJ. The Resistance and the FO will all be against the will of the Force because they all want their opposing wild cards (Rey and Ben) dead. So there's your conflict. Rey and Ben against the norm. Ben vs the FO and Rey vs the Resistance. It ends with Ben and Rey vs The real villain. The FO won't get wiped out in the end, they will introduce a character who will be somewhat eligible to take over. It ends with the FO and the Resistance signing a peace treaty, each being led by new leaders.

Rey and Ben faking their deaths and living their new lives under new identities in the outer rim.

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Re: Episode IX: Spoilers and Rumors

Post by Kessel on Sun 06 May 2018, 9:31 am

@YeeRees - I think you being up some good points about JJ. I like his work and he’s fantastic at setting up stories and likable characters, but I don’t know how well he’ll close the deal with the story finale. There’s an element of crowd pleasing to his work, at least with TFA. He took some risks in TFA, like having Kylo kill Han, but most of the movie was set up with lots of safe and familiar OT elements and with an obvious effort to make the audience like the new characters (meaning the heroes, in particular).

At the same time, JJ was criticized for being too safe and rehashing the OT, so I think there’s some pressure on him to create a new story that goes beyond Rebels vs. Empire. Hopefully he’ll make some creative choices and take some risks (with other characters and story elements besides Kylo).

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Re: Episode IX: Spoilers and Rumors

Post by californiagirl on Sun 06 May 2018, 10:49 am

The entirety of the OT has already had an homage and/or subversion. I truly don't know how much nostalgia is left to mine, especially with Snoke, Luke, Han, and to an extent Leia, all gone. JJ already said the TLJ outcry didn't affect his script. Plus he got trashed for being rehashy in TFA, it's hard to see him doing the same mistake twice.

These are his characters, and it seems like Reylo may have been his idea, or why would LF keep him onboard as executive producer to "continue the storytelling" if that wasn't the case? It's not that he's bad at finishing things, he just tends to leave the directing/writing positions before they are done.

Especially with the Trevorrow debacle, I don't think LF will let him fail. And they certainly don't care about pandering to fanboys that much at this point. I'm inclined to think we'll be fine.
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Re: Episode IX: Spoilers and Rumors

Post by Riri on Sun 06 May 2018, 11:23 am

@californiagirl

Yep Rian gives credit to JJ for setting up the dynamic between Reylo. Also JJ has said Kylo is more than just a bad seed, Snoke was preying on him when his parents were absent. I have faith in him to complete the story and i think he'll have a lot to prove.


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Re: Episode IX: Spoilers and Rumors

Post by SoloSideCousin on Sun 06 May 2018, 12:48 pm

@Dar-ren19 wrote:One thing we need to remember...Kylo didn’t actually mention the First Order in his litany of things to burn down. I wonder if Rey noticed that exclusion Wink

Yes, JJ won’t want IX to be branded as safe yet again, but how far CAN he go? His main problem IS boredom about 1/3 way into the movie...so something jarring will have to happen by then. Also, we need to remember that this is SW and Leia’s Patent Project (the Resistance) will always have the upper hand (and be the crowd favorite), so whatever infighting we see will pretty much be confined to the FO (which was how Rian ended TLJ - yep, for a reason)....
@Dar-ren19

I actually think that his mention of "Snoke" indicated throwing the FO out. Snoke was the embodiment of the FO as far as Kylo was concerned IMO. He asked Rey to set up something new. I don't think that he has any love or loyalty to the FO at all. I think when he woke up with Hux standing, like the Luke scenario, *and* realized Rey had left him, he lost it and wanted to destroy what had hurt him for years. He doesn't start as Supreme Leader, he only goes there because Hux stands in his way on the Resistance strike, and SL tops Hux and gets Kylo Hux's army.
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Re: Episode IX: Spoilers and Rumors

Post by Saracene on Sun 06 May 2018, 4:22 pm

@YeeRees I think it's worth noting though that when Luke really prods Rey about why she's on the island, her reasons have nothing to do with her dedication to the Resistance. It's played like she just recites "the Resistance sent me" like she's memorised it and then Luke is like, ok cut the bullsith and tell me why you're really here.

Also, sure Rey might think that Kylo turning will help the big cause, but I'm pretty sure that when she's reaching out to hold hands with him and cries at the vision of the future, the Resistance is not on her mind at all. In the light of the previous scene, you could say that she's once again covering up personal stuff with "it's all about the Resistance". And I'm not saying that Rey doesn't care about the Resistance at all, but it's like she cares about it by default because they're the good guys doing good work and she has nowhere else to be.

I don't think that Episode IX will set Rey against the Resistance for any kind of ideological reasons, but surely if the rest discovered that their Jedi heroine has an unusual bond with enemy no. 1 it will raise eyebrows and create complications for Rey, big time. She hasn't struggled with it so far because for now, her dynamic with Kylo and her dedication to the Resistance have been separated, with no one knowing about the former but Kylo and herself.

I share the concerns about JJ, but it's at least a consolation that the Reylo scenes in TFA were truly outstanding. Also, it's not like all JJ movies are about happy bunnies with no conflicts; the personal clash between Kirk and Spock was the heart of the first Star Trek. It's just that they had the luxury of being already-loved characters, whereas TFA pushed the new characters' likeability at the cost of everything else.
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Re: Episode IX: Spoilers and Rumors

Post by YeeRees on Sun 06 May 2018, 6:27 pm

@Kessel @Saracene I prefer JJ over Trevorrow, although JJ has made similar missteps to CT with female characters in the past. I personally think having Dr. Carol Marcus strip down to her underwear for no good reason was every bit as bad as how the women in Jurassic World were treated. I did like TFA a lot and Rey and Kylo’s scenes stayed with me long after so I agree JJ did a great job with them. I was initially more excited to see Finn’s story going into TFA, and although I still love him, I do feel let down about his character development. The Stormtrooper-with-a-conscience thing seemed so cool in the trailer but I feel like they smoothed out the edges too much and his time with the FO seems to be mostly played for laughs - if Hux has got another superweapon, what are the odds that Finn mopped it or unblocked the toilets there at some point!

You make some good points @Saracene I suppose my gripe is more with the way Rey is written. She has all these possible sources of conflict within her and we get glimpses of deeper feeling but then she’s back to being all sunshine and smiles again. I suppose it could be her way of masking the pain and things won’t be all rainbows for her in Episode IX. I hope that’s the case because it would be boring otherwise. I would absolutely like to see Rey question some of Poe’s methods but I’ve got my doubts about this. If JJ goes with a substantial time jump from TLJ to EpIX, I can see him wanting scenes of jokey camaraderie between Rey, Finn, Poe, Rose etc which weren’t possible with the previous films. But there’s a danger it would seem unearned as we won’t have seen their relationships develop as we did with Luke, Leia, Han and the Rebels (unless we get those stories in animated shorts, comics, pre-movie novels) and even then most of the people going to see EpIX won’t have a clue about what’s gone on.
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Re: Episode IX: Spoilers and Rumors

Post by nickandnora on Sun 06 May 2018, 6:38 pm

@YeeRees wrote:@Kessel @Saracene I prefer JJ over Trevorrow, although JJ has made similar missteps to CT with female characters in the past. I personally think having Dr. Carol Marcus strip down to her underwear for no good reason was every bit as bad as how the women in Jurassic World were treated. I did like TFA a lot and Rey and Kylo’s scenes stayed with me long after so I agree JJ did a great job with them. I was initially more excited to see Finn’s story going into TFA, and although I still love him, I do feel let down about his character development. The Stormtrooper-with-a-conscience thing seemed so cool in the trailer but I feel like they smoothed out the edges too much and his time with the FO seems to be mostly played for laughs - if Hux has got another superweapon, what are the odds that Finn mopped it or unblocked the toilets there at some point!

You make some good points @Saracene I suppose my gripe is more with the way Rey is written. She has all these possible sources of conflict within her and we get glimpses of deeper feeling but then she’s back to being all sunshine and smiles again. I suppose it could be her way of masking the pain and things won’t be all rainbows for her in Episode IX. I hope that’s the case because it would be boring otherwise. I would absolutely like to see Rey question some of Poe’s methods but I’ve got my doubts about this. If JJ goes with a substantial time jump from TLJ to EpIX, I can see him wanting scenes of jokey camaraderie between Rey, Finn, Poe, Rose etc which weren’t possible with the previous films. But there’s a danger it would seem unearned as we won’t have seen their relationships develop as we did with Luke, Leia, Han and the Rebels (unless we get those stories in animated shorts, comics, pre-movie novels) and even then most of the people going to see EpIX won’t have a clue about what’s gone on.
@YeeRees
I've been saying this on this board for awhile, but I just think this has to be deliberate and the s*** is going to hit the fan in IX. Has to be. Thus far, Kylo is the only one who seems to actually be forced to grapple with his demons. I think Rey, Finn, and Poe have been taking the easy way out thus far. It's tough for me to verbalize exactly what I mean by this, but I guess the best way to frame this is to consider that one epigraph in The Clone Wars that defines balance for us: "Balance is found in the one who faces his own guilt." I feel like the other three haven't really done that yet, I mean not really. Guilt about what? Well, we'll have to see. I just feel like Rian's ending of TLJ was really, really coy, and there's a lot of repressed emotions that are about to come to a head in IX.


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