Episode IX: Spoilers and Rumors

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Post by Chris24601 on Sat 14 Jul 2018, 11:07 am

I find the notion of Poe starting IX in an established relationship with Keri’s character hilarious because of how invested certain parties were in the Rey/Poe meeting meant that Rey and Poe were going to become the “official couple” (and thus Reylo would not be endgame).

It sometimes feels like the producers are going out of their way to shoot down every toxic fanboy theory out there and rub it in their face how wrong they are.

Structurally, I love the notion of Rey as the fifth-wheel of the Resistance. I suspect that, despite be Supreme Leader, Kylo feels all that connected to the First Order either. He’s NOT the monster Hux and many others in the First Order are and his power and being the real killer of Snoke create additional walls between Kylo and the First Order rank and file. This makes Rey’s isolation a mirror to Kylo’s.

It also means her fundamental drive, the belonging she seeks, is still unfulfilled. Seeking out Luke did not fill it and she’s still just as isolated in the Resistance as she was on Jakku (the strangers around her are just nicer is all). Leia is likely the one bright spot, a motherly figure, but her death will leave Rey just as isolated as before if Finn is spending his time with Rose and Poe already has Keri’s character as a love interest (which also gives Finn and Poe their respective love lives to bond over... vs. talking about relationship problems with another girl).

Honestly, I kinda feel like Rey and Kylo almost need some sort Luke/Mara “Vision of the Future” ‘sidequest’ (actually the main plot) where they’re required to spend a pretty extensive period of time off on their own (to hash out their true feelings) while Hux/the First Order and Poe/the Resistance duke it out. Them both already being isolated within their own factions just makes that something easier to facilitate.

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Post by giaciak2 on Sat 14 Jul 2018, 11:18 am

In my opinion, instead, the fact that Rey is courted by Poe, Finn, or anyone else. The fact that Poe and Finn have a relationship or not are not influential for the plot.
Rey does not need to be alone among couples to understand - she feels something for Ben.
If they were all couples except she is not influential if she does not love him.
But if instead she loves him, and I believe it is so, they can also bomb the room, but when she sees him change for love, for her love, she will send everyone to that country. She will join him and that is the shared vision. The darkness and the light that are encountered. Because they are the only facts in the same way. The Jedi and the Sith basically do not exist, there is only strength and love is balance.

Sorry I spent too many hours writing my Fan Fiction and I'm becoming diabetic. Joking aside, I see her like that.
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Post by Mila95 on Sat 14 Jul 2018, 12:18 pm

@Chris24601 I agree,basically my ideal scenario for IX would be at some point Rey and Kylo both leave their separate sides and become a third party that is trying to end the war in some different way and get some time to have more scenes alone.Idk how likely that is but I really love that idea.I do think that ultimately Rey has not found her belonging with the resistance.Like the resistance is a military organization that is going to stop existing after the war and Rey is someone who wants a family,not just a cause imo.And mostly the fact that she was with the resistance since tbe first movie,I doubt her quest for belonging would have been solved so easily and quickly.I think Finn,Han and Leia and the bonds she had/has with them are a beginning to finding her belonging but the final and most important piece of that will be with Ben.

Her feeling isolated in the resistance has seemed like a very likely way to go since TLJ imo.She's the one force sensitive person there once Leia is gone,she's changed after her experiences in TFA and TLJ,Finn has learned not to be so focused solely on her and now has his thing with Rose as well,being the last jedi will probably come with some pressure and expectations,she's hiding a bond with the enemy that people would have a big problem understanding.I feel like the set up is all there.

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Post by rawpowah on Sat 14 Jul 2018, 1:53 pm

@Chris24601 @Mila95

One of the things I was critical of as far as the Resistance characters were concerned was the fact that they have no lives and personalities outside the cause. So if IX establishes the opposite immediately, I will be very pleased. And if this is used as a way to expand on Rey's characterization, then I'll be even more pleased. It doesn't make sense for her to find belonging when there's still one act left of the story, especially if that is a main objective for her throughout the trilogy. The ingredients are there for Rey to feel like she doesn't completely belong with the Resistance, and I can only hope JJ sees this as well.
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Post by SW_Heroine_Journey on Sat 14 Jul 2018, 2:10 pm

@rawpowah wrote:@Chris24601 @Mila95

One of the things I was critical of as far as the Resistance characters were concerned was the fact that they have no lives and personalities outside the cause. So if IX establishes the opposite immediately, I will be very pleased. And if this is used as a way to expand on Rey's characterization, then I'll be even more pleased. It doesn't make sense for her to find belonging when there's still one act left of the story, especially if that is a main objective for her throughout the trilogy. The ingredients are there for Rey to feel like she doesn't completely belong with the Resistance, and I can only hope JJ sees this as well.
@rawpowah

I am hopeful and believe he does! Based on what was seen in TFA, and he executive produced/loves what Rian did with TLJ! Very Happy

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Post by Saracene on Sat 14 Jul 2018, 5:11 pm

@Chris24601 I think that Rey and Kylo's separate "sidequest" could be a situation where Kylo is imprisoned by the FO after doing some big selfless thing for Rey's sake, and she decides to go and rescue him. If you have Kylo break away from the FO way earlier than the last 15 minutes, you need to introduce a different sort of tension, like "will Kylo die". Or maybe they're both taken prisoners by the FO.
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Post by DeeBee on Sat 14 Jul 2018, 7:31 pm

@rawpowah wrote:@Chris24601 @Mila95

One of the things I was critical of as far as the Resistance characters were concerned was the fact that they have no lives and personalities outside the cause. So if IX establishes the opposite immediately, I will be very pleased. And if this is used as a way to expand on Rey's characterization, then I'll be even more pleased. It doesn't make sense for her to find belonging when there's still one act left of the story, especially if that is a main objective for her throughout the trilogy. The ingredients are there for Rey to feel like she doesn't completely belong with the Resistance, and I can only hope JJ sees this as well.
@rawpowah
rawpowah I think the bolded is gold!!! I think this is true of Poe, and maybe it's why I've never really connected with his character!
I think we did get some context for Rose, but it was very brief and halfway through the story. Same with Holdo - it was played for suspense so we were not told much about her. IMHO.

Is this thread for speculation including spoilers? we don't have a speculation thread yet but don't want to spoil anyone avoiding..

I've played around with the Rey/Kylo side force plot - this may still happen to some degree, but John's joy that he will be back with Daisy for IX tells me that it isn't going to be like TLJ with them separated for much of the movie. But there is an in between being together the whole movie and being separated like in TLJ. Maybe it will be a mix.

I agree with you all-Rey's belonging she seeks is not the resistance. It is a part of her belonging, but it is not going to match what she found with Kylo/Ben in those brief, life changing moments in TLJ! She won't be able to turn her back on that now she's experienced what true belonging actually is. Same goes for Kylo/Ben!
TLJ was Rey asking: Where is my place in all this?
I think by the end of TLJ, she has answered this: her place is following the will of the force.
At the end of TLJ, the will of the force was that she help keep the resistance alive.
It may be in IX that the will of the force, and the resistance may differ in what they are asking of Rey - and Rey needs to stay true to the will of the force first. This will ultimately help her friends - but the resistance may struggle to understand this. My guess? the will of the force is for Rey and Kylo/Ben to work together to bring balance (and fall in love tee hee H-beating ) - and the resistance will just want to wipe him out!
So Rey is positioned not unlike Kylo was originally in the FO - not a part of the structure of the organisation, a separate, partly autonomous side arm working in tandem toward common goals. Rey has a special role to play that will be unique from any one else in the resistance.

While I just want more Rey, Kylo and the force (lol), I think separating out the plots is less interesting - I hope they keep the resistance and Rey together for much of the movie - and that her and Kylo's destinies interplay with the FO and resistance conflict. I love TLJ, but it was too many plots going on. I am guessing for IX they will be aiming to bring all the plots together.

I like the idea of Poe having a non-Rey love interest at the start of IX rofl. It is not confirmed Kerri is cast yet I think - but that could be cool. lol.
At the same time, I'd prefer Poe not get a love interest at all. lol because I just don't want them to spend any time on it in the movie. haaaaa..
but if Kerri was his love interest and the new leader of the resistance???
There are so many interesting things that could be done with that - that feed into the overall conflict.
I think its an easy assumption to make that Poe will lead the resistance.. but this may not be the case! [maybe Kerri's character can die eventually]
Poe can find his true love in the comics. I don't have to see it on the big screen - give me Rey and Kylo/Ben and let Poe be lonely rofl!

I hope we get no more new resistance characters. Too many. Just focus on the ones we have, and maybe one to replace Leia lol. And make them more interesting! I want more Rose, she's interesting!! lol.
I suspect we might be getting black squadron back in IX. If so I hope they get as much attention as Tallie Lintra did in TLJ!
[Though I'm enjoying getting to know Temmin Wexley in Aftermath! Can we have Mr Bones or similar in IX please??!!! "I performed violence!!" muah ha haaaa!!" - All SW movies need a cackling character!] The resistance characters we have are enough, the set up is there for some great story telling in IX! I want more Chewie working with the resistance too!


@Saracene wrote:@Chris24601 I think that Rey and Kylo's separate "sidequest" could be a situation where Kylo is imprisoned by the FO after doing some big selfless thing for Rey's sake, and she decides to go and rescue him. If you have Kylo break away from the FO way earlier than the last 15 minutes, you need to introduce a different sort of tension, like "will Kylo die". Or maybe they're both taken prisoners by the FO.
@Saracene

Good point! I'd prefer 'will Kylo/Ben die' tension to the 'will he turn away from the dark and be redeemed' any day! Much more interesting, and I want to see Kylo/Ben actually being selfless and trying to live his life saving what he loves for more than 15 minutes. lol.
Plus I want reylo kisses -plural! lol. I don't see Rey kissing him until he has turned.
There are soooo many possibilities for being captured.. Rey captured by Hux, Kylo/Ben captured in coup... or both.. or maybe Poe or Finn or chewie could get captured - and Kylo/Ben could help them.. part of that selflessness that he needs to be in IX for his turning from the dark side and being redeemed to actually go down. Bring on selfless Ben!

Oops enough rambles from me.. loving hearing everyone's thoughts - you guys always get me thinking!!!!
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Post by nana7marie on Sun 15 Jul 2018, 4:53 am

My personal headcanon of how Rey meets Kylo again is either of the two options:
1. If they choose to explore the darker side of the Resistance, which I’d love but - let’s face it - seems unlikely, Rey disillusioned with the not-so-noble Resistance and frightened for Kylo, decides to contact him in secret and meets him personally to try to reason with him in order to stop the ongoing war, avoid deaths and destruction and find a solution to the galaxy’s problems. This would happen after a while for their emotions to calm down and after a couple of force skypes when they’d really like to be all angry at each other but can’t cos they already need and miss their other half. This would also be a chance for the filmmakers to show Rey’s indeed concerned about Kylo himself, that he’s not just means to bring about peace in the galaxy. Obviously, they’d reach some degree of understanding but the First Order wouldn’t approve, at least some members, with Hux being the biggest opponent. If Benperor scenario’s in place from the very beginning of the movie, this would be the turning point for Hux to gain enough support to try to overthrow Kylo (and maybe succeed).
2. If they choose to make Finn try to start the stormtrooper rebellion, which I’d love too and this seems more likely than exploring the dark side of the Resistance, Rey volunteers to help her buddy but deep in heart is also concerned about Kylo. They sneak into the First Order disguised as the stormtroopers and Finn makes sure nobody recognises they’re spies but Kylo obviously immediately knows the truth Razz . This could also happen after a while and a couple of force skypes but wouldn’t have to, with Rey the Stormtrooper and Kylo personal meeting being their first encounter since TLJ. The outcomes could be the same, i.e. Rey reasoning with Kylo and Hux attempt to take over, and it’d also be a chance to show Rey’s real feelings as well as provide some situations for comic relief here and there.

Keri Russell playing a dark Resistance-associated character fits especially into 1 whereas her being a Knight of Ren allying with Hux or his assassin could be used in 2 (but anywhere really). Unca Wanwo coming back is great regardless Very Happy . 1 gives a chance to explore the themes that TLJ seemed to try to convey but in my opinion failed at (the audience associates Canto Bight plight with the First Order as the focus on the Resistance input was too small, everything that was dark about Poe disappears due to unfortunate exchange between Leia and Holdo as well as Leia’s words in the cave on Crait) whereas 2 could make Finn a prominent sidekick again - even though his character lacked some psychological depth in TFA despite having all means not to (a child kidnapped by an evil military regime and brainwashed into fighting and killing for them finally breaking free), he was convincing enough for me then and interesting for a main character who’s not the protagonist (he wanted to escape and save his life, bumped into a guy who helped him run away but apparently died doing so, bumped into a girl and the said guy’s droid and again they happened to be his chance to leave, parted with the said girl and was about to leave for good but the girl got into trouble and they’d already bonded plus he’s a good guy so he felt he needed to help her - consistent enough for me) as opposed to TLJ. In TFA his character gets lots of screen time, drives the action forward, actually kickstarts the whole story and connects various elements of the movie (the First Order, the Resistance through Poe, the Skywalker/Solo family through both Kylo and Han, and even reylo) but in TLJ, though he’s the protagonist of his own subplot and even gets a love interest, I find his character not just less influential overall but also rather boring - Canto Bight subplot isn’t as interconnected and is just for him to realise the Cause is worth fighting for, but the aim of Canto Bight was also to show the Resistance is jointly responsible so again this wasn’t as well executed as it could’ve been. Whatever happens in IX I hope Finn’s more prominent again - definitely more than Poe, whom I liked in TFA. Lolilol
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Post by Casper on Sun 15 Jul 2018, 6:26 am

It just makes sense they'd bring Lando back.  With the state of the Resistance at the end of TLJ and their numbers drastically reduced with no help in sight, Lando is exactly the person Leia would turn to for help.  

Plus, Billy Dee Williams is just cool.

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Post by snufkin on Sun 15 Jul 2018, 6:10 pm

@Chris24601 wrote:I find the notion of Poe starting IX in an established relationship with Keri’s character hilarious because of how invested certain parties were in the Rey/Poe meeting meant that Rey and Poe were going to become the “official couple” (and thus Reylo would not be endgame).

Same, both for the very reason you mention (fandom conspiracy theories because TLJ doubled down on the ST not catering to their expectations) and also the mental image of old friends Keri and JJ chatting in which she convinces him to give her a role for no other than reason than allowing her to make out with Oscar Issac.

I don't think it's hugely shocking that they cast her, I even predicted it when they announced he was taking over from CT. Keri is one of JJ's stock players the same way David Lynch has Kyle McLaughlin and Laura Dern (and LD 100% was in TLJ because Rian is a huge Lynch fanboy). It'd be more surprising if they hadn't announced her. But I don't think she's going to be playing Poe's supportive new girlfriend or anything like that, especially if you've seen her in The Americans or even her anti-Felicity role, Waitress. She's good at shrewd and ruthless, so my bet is that she'll turn up either in the First Order or one of the outside groups (criminal networks or go-it-alone systems) in a leadership position. Especially because there's no Resistance left and TLJ's ending points to it being an underground/whisper network.
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Post by Kylo Rey on Sun 15 Jul 2018, 6:23 pm

@snufkin wrote:
@Chris24601 wrote:I find the notion of Poe starting IX in an established relationship with Keri’s character hilarious because of how invested certain parties were in the Rey/Poe meeting meant that Rey and Poe were going to become the “official couple” (and thus Reylo would not be endgame).

Same, both for the very reason you mention (fandom conspiracy theories because TLJ doubled down on the ST not catering to their expectations) and also the mental image of old friends Keri and JJ chatting in which she convinces him to give her a role for no other than reason than allowing her to make out with Oscar Issac.

I don't think it's hugely shocking that they cast her, I even predicted it when they announced he was taking over from CT. Keri is one of JJ's stock players the same way David Lynch has Kyle McLaughlin and Laura Dern (and LD 100% was in TLJ because Rian is a huge Lynch fanboy). It'd be more surprising if they hadn't announced her. But I don't think she's going to be playing Poe's supportive new girlfriend or anything like that, especially if you've seen her in The Americans or even her anti-Felicity role, Waitress. She's good at shrewd and ruthless, so my bet is that she'll turn up either in the First Order or one of the outside groups (criminal networks or go-it-alone systems) in a leadership position. Especially because there's no Resistance left and TLJ's ending points to it being an underground/whisper network.
@snufkin

Yeah this makes the most sense to me. No one is clamouring to know about Poe's love life. I figured if he ends up with anyone it'll be Connix (Billie Lourd) as TLJ subtly seemed to set that up. Still, that spoiler is hilarious because of how it puts the kibosh on Poe/Rey and it would just be doubling down again, lol. Rey can be isolated in the Resistance either way. We already saw a bit of that at the end of TLJ. Poor girl, she's finally surrounded by lots of friends and an 'adoptive' family so to speak, but it still doesn't fill the void of connecting with the one person in the galaxy who truly sees her for who she is and who she has intense feelings for. Kylo is going to be feeling pretty lovesick too. The way RJ left it, there's a ridiculous amount of angst set up for their next reunion in IX.
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Post by rey09 on Sun 15 Jul 2018, 6:23 pm

@snufkin wrote:
@Chris24601 wrote:I find the notion of Poe starting IX in an established relationship with Keri’s character hilarious because of how invested certain parties were in the Rey/Poe meeting meant that Rey and Poe were going to become the “official couple” (and thus Reylo would not be endgame).

Same, both for the very reason you mention (fandom conspiracy theories because TLJ doubled down on the ST not catering to their expectations) and also the mental image of old friends Keri and JJ chatting in which she convinces him to give her a role for no other than reason than allowing her to make out with Oscar Issac.

I don't think it's hugely shocking that they cast her, I even predicted it when they announced he was taking over from CT. Keri is one of JJ's stock players the same way David Lynch has Kyle McLaughlin and Laura Dern (and LD 100% was in TLJ because Rian is a huge Lynch fanboy). It'd be more surprising if they hadn't announced her. But I don't think she's going to be playing Poe's supportive new girlfriend or anything like that, especially if you've seen her in The Americans or even her anti-Felicity role, Waitress. She's good at shrewd and ruthless, so my bet is that she'll turn up either in the First Order or one of the outside groups (criminal networks or go-it-alone systems) in a leadership position. Especially because there's no Resistance left and TLJ's ending points to it being an underground/whisper network.
@snufkin

It'd be cool to see a female FO general, she'd play that very well.
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Post by snufkin on Sun 15 Jul 2018, 6:42 pm

@Kylo Rey We might've clamored post-TFA because Poe came off as the funny supporting character who likely would f**k anything (and fun fact I recently learned, Bill Hader wrote his "who talks first?" lines). But post-TLJ, mansplaining and getting most of the Resistance killed destroyed most of the collective lady boner for him. As for Rey, she's going to try to find her place with the Resistance the same way she did with Luke. Meaning it's not going to go well for her. It's gone, but right after TFA came out there was a great video essay on Vimeo that showed how JJ framed/blocked his shots of her. Other than the scenes with Kylo, she's always visually shown to be separated from others and alone. Which the last shot of her in TLJ, she's with Leia but otherwise shown to be sitting by herself looking in at Finn with Rose, the other Resistance members, and it's only when Leia sits down next to her that she's not by herself. So I expect more of the same, her finding companionship and friendship within that group (I care more about Rose getting to have a friendship with her than what happens with Finn or Poe) but still isolated and not really in her right place.

@rey09 - I agree! I kind of want to see her slap around either Poe or Hux (or both!) because outside of Felicity, she's great at playing no patience for men's bullshit type of characters.
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Post by rey09 on Sun 15 Jul 2018, 7:25 pm

@snufkin wrote:@Kylo Rey We might've clamored post-TFA because Poe came off as the funny supporting character who likely would f**k anything (and fun fact I recently learned, Bill Hader wrote his "who talks first?" lines). But post-TLJ, mansplaining and getting most of the Resistance killed destroyed most of the collective lady boner for him. As for Rey, she's going to try to find her place with the Resistance the same way she did with Luke. Meaning it's not going to go well for her. It's gone, but right after TFA came out there was a great video essay on Vimeo that showed how JJ framed/blocked his shots of her. Other than the scenes with Kylo, she's always visually shown to be separated from others and alone. Which the last shot of her in TLJ, she's with Leia but otherwise shown to be sitting by herself looking in at Finn with Rose, the other Resistance members, and it's only when Leia sits down next to her that she's not by herself. So I expect more of the same, her finding companionship and friendship within that group (I care more about Rose getting to have a friendship with her than what happens with Finn or Poe) but still isolated and not really in her right place.

@rey09 - I agree! I kind of want to see her slap around either Poe or Hux (or both!) because outside of Felicity, she's great at playing no patience for men's bullshit type of characters.
@snufkin Lmaoo yess!!

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Post by whisperingwillow on Sun 15 Jul 2018, 7:45 pm

@snufkin wrote:@Kylo Rey We might've clamored post-TFA because Poe came off as the funny supporting character who likely would f**k anything (and fun fact I recently learned, Bill Hader wrote his "who talks first?" lines). But post-TLJ, mansplaining and getting most of the Resistance killed destroyed most of the collective lady boner for him. As for Rey, she's going to try to find her place with the Resistance the same way she did with Luke. Meaning it's not going to go well for her. It's gone, but right after TFA came out there was a great video essay on Vimeo that showed how JJ framed/blocked his shots of her. Other than the scenes with Kylo, she's always visually shown to be separated from others and alone. Which the last shot of her in TLJ, she's with Leia but otherwise shown to be sitting by herself looking in at Finn with Rose, the other Resistance members, and it's only when Leia sits down next to her that she's not by herself. So I expect more of the same, her finding companionship and friendship within that group (I care more about Rose getting to have a friendship with her than what happens with Finn or Poe) but still isolated and not really in her right place.

@rey09 - I agree! I kind of want to see her slap around either Poe or Hux (or both!) because outside of Felicity, she's great at playing no patience for men's bullshit type of characters.
@snufkin

That scene was so meaningful and purposeful to me when I saw the film for the first time. She is clearly still alone even while surrounded by her "friends". She is still missing that something in her life. I will be sorely disappointed if JJ doesn't build on it which I think obviously he has to.
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Post by snufkin on Sun 15 Jul 2018, 9:19 pm

@whisperingwillow I checked the SW Screengrabs site for the coda moment in both films, when Leia is the person who comes to Rey after the conflict ends. They're both way too big screen res to post, but

Force Awakens - Sequence as the Falcon returns to D'Qar, Chewie rushes out with Finn in his arms for medical treatment as the Resistance and ground troops rush to meet them to celebrate the destruction of SKB. Rey comes out after and is shown stationary as the camera and the other characters (Chewie and Poe w/Finn rushing off to medical care) pull away from her. Leaving her alone again until Leia approaches her.

The Last Jedi - Sequence in the Falcon escaping from Crait as the surviving members of the Resistance congregate (and my "the Resistance is down to barely enough people to be a church choir joke" is because it feels like Rian set this up as the benediction moment at the end of a church service) with one another. Rey unites with BB-8, has a moment of Poe saying hello to her, and then watches Finn tend to Rose with an expression that's potentially both tender because she's seeing his care to her, as well as a moment of sadness about what happened between her and Ben. But same thing, she's framed alone surrounded by the Resistance members interacting with one another (dude, the Resistance is cliquey) until Leia approaches her.

Both sequences are the same, Rey is with the Resistance but framed in a way that she's separated and alone in that group. And Leia's the only person who reaches out to her and interacts with her. So despite arguments of a Golden Trio/Beautiful Friendship Gang, she hasn't been depicted as really part of that group in terms of finding a community (another part of the film's religious themes in finding a congregation) other than her individual friendships with Finn, BB-8, and both Han and Leia seeking her out for encouragement/mentoring. And it's a striking comparison with her scenes with Ben, where he's shown in the same frame/space with her as part of the connection and intimacy between the two of them.

I don't doubt that IX will open with Rey having spent time with the Resistance and further developing friendships like the one she has with Finn and building new ones with Rose. But the framing shots of her with that group versus her with Ben are deliberate. They're meant to be part of her seeking the belonging ahead/finding her place is something she has to do on her own, but which are intricately tied up with Ben and her relationship with him. And it's funny after the latest fandom plagiarism incident of comparing the shots of their fighting moves to be the same choreography. Because there have been plenty of fans arguing that maybe it was just easier to do the same movies. Or "it doesn't mean anything about their relationship." I’m not too knowledgeable about cinematography and editing. But I do know that a film of that scale with that much money riding on it, everything is planned out to the nth degree and if they did these shots in that manner, it means something specific.
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Post by californiagirl on Sun 15 Jul 2018, 10:20 pm

So despite arguments of a Golden Trio/Beautiful Friendship Gang, she hasn't been depicted as really part of that group in terms of finding a community
@snufkin Exactly. This is the crucial part of the story and Rey's characterization that has completely bypassed so many.

A Friendship Bunch would honestly feel forced. They aren't Han-Luke-Leia, and I'm not sure why anyone thinks they are. There's truly no trio dynamic set up at all.

IX is going to be so confusing for so many people.
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Post by SW_Heroine_Journey on Mon 16 Jul 2018, 1:32 am

@snufkin wrote:@whisperingwillow I checked the SW Screengrabs site for the coda moment in both films, when Leia is the person who comes to Rey after the conflict ends. They're both way too big screen res to post, but

Force Awakens - Sequence as the Falcon returns to D'Qar, Chewie rushes out with Finn in his arms for medical treatment as the Resistance and ground troops rush to meet them to celebrate the destruction of SKB. Rey comes out after and is shown stationary as the camera and the other characters (Chewie and Poe w/Finn rushing off to medical care) pull away from her. Leaving her alone again until Leia approaches her.

The Last Jedi - Sequence in the Falcon escaping from Crait as the surviving members of the Resistance congregate (and my "the Resistance is down to barely enough people to be a church choir joke" is because it feels like Rian set this up as the benediction moment at the end of a church service) with one another. Rey unites with BB-8, has a moment of Poe saying hello to her, and then watches Finn tend to Rose with an expression that's potentially both tender because she's seeing his care to her, as well as a moment of sadness about what happened between her and Ben. But same thing, she's framed alone surrounded by the Resistance members interacting with one another (dude, the Resistance is cliquey) until Leia approaches her.

Both sequences are the same, Rey is with the Resistance but framed in a way that she's separated and alone in that group. And Leia's the only person who reaches out to her and interacts with her. So despite arguments of a Golden Trio/Beautiful Friendship Gang, she hasn't been depicted as really part of that group in terms of finding a community (another part of the film's religious themes in finding a congregation) other than her individual friendships with Finn, BB-8, and both Han and Leia seeking her out for encouragement/mentoring. And it's a striking comparison with her scenes with Ben, where he's shown in the same frame/space with her as part of the connection and intimacy between the two of them.

I don't doubt that IX will open with Rey having spent time with the Resistance and further developing friendships like the one she has with Finn and building new ones with Rose. But the framing shots of her with that group versus her with Ben are deliberate. They're meant to be part of her seeking the belonging ahead/finding her place is something she has to do on her own, but which are intricately tied up with Ben and her relationship with him. And it's funny after the latest fandom plagiarism incident of comparing the shots of their fighting moves to be the same choreography. Because there have been plenty of fans arguing that maybe it was just easier to do the same movies. Or "it doesn't mean anything about their relationship." I’m not too knowledgeable about cinematography and editing. But I do know that a film of that scale with that much money riding on it, everything is planned out to the nth degree and if they did these shots in that manner, it means something specific.
@snufkin

Brilliantly composed! Thank you!

My head is spinning because if Carrie was able to proceed with IX, who knows how the plot would unfold; however, now...and the points you are making...I am wondering ....Rey feels isolated, until Leia approaches her and comforts her. Have to wonder if in IX, without Leia, Rey's isolation will increase (along with grieving), which will have many effects on the plot moving forward for her (especially with Force Skype, her acceptance of being grey, conflicts with Poe and/or Finn...the Resistance in general).
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Post by Lily Snape on Mon 16 Jul 2018, 1:46 am

@Saracene wrote:@Chris24601 I think that Rey and Kylo's separate "sidequest" could be a situation where Kylo is imprisoned by the FO after doing some big selfless thing for Rey's sake, and she decides to go and rescue him. If you have Kylo break away from the FO way earlier than the last 15 minutes, you need to introduce a different sort of tension, like "will Kylo die". Or maybe they're both taken prisoners by the FO.
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I was hoping for this for TLJ, but I think that for romantic Reylo or even incipient romantic Reylo to happen, it’s kind of a necessity for IX unless they really double down on the Force bond moments. They need something like the Han/Leia detour on the asteroid in ESB, or what my family refers to as a “field trip with Zuko” from Avatar: the Last Air Bender—the detour with someone important to the character that changes both the individuals and their relationship. Smile
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Post by snufkin on Mon 16 Jul 2018, 2:05 am

@SW_Heroine_Journey I mean look at this shot of Rey after she's saved the members of the Resistance who didn't get killed thanks to Poe's stupidity

Episode IX: Spoilers and Rumors - Page 39 Ezgif-3-6b98b4d180

Even Threepio has somebody talking to him with R2 just standing there as part of the conversation. Rey's just sitting there awkward and by herself (alone again) until Leia notices her. The Resistance is two for two in this happening with Rey in a moment where they should be thanking her for saving them,

Episode IX: Spoilers and Rumors - Page 39 94c1628c5a32a98fa97c9fc6ab7d941f

Interesting question about Carrie seeing as how they're being mum about Leia's fate. Both films gave Leia the last word in dialogue with Rey and a shot of the two of them together holding/touching hands (and gee, she also held hands with Leia's son), so that's definitely a detail I think was deliberate for both films.
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Post by Saracene on Mon 16 Jul 2018, 2:26 am

@Lily Snape wrote:
@Saracene wrote:@Chris24601 I think that Rey and Kylo's separate "sidequest" could be a situation where Kylo is imprisoned by the FO after doing some big selfless thing for Rey's sake, and she decides to go and rescue him. If you have Kylo break away from the FO way earlier than the last 15 minutes, you need to introduce a different sort of tension, like "will Kylo die". Or maybe they're both taken prisoners by the FO.
@Saracene

I was hoping for this for TLJ, but I think that for romantic Reylo or even incipient romantic Reylo to happen, it’s kind of a necessity for IX unless they really double down on the Force bond moments. They need something like the Han/Leia detour on the asteroid in ESB, or what my family refers to as a “field trip with Zuko” from Avatar: the Last Air Bender—the detour with someone important to the character that changes both the individuals and their relationship. Smile
@Lily Snape

I think that the force bond was a genius device for getting Rey from hating Kylo's guts at the start of TLJ to that hand-holding moment, but it's hard to see how it could be used to develop their relationship further in the Episode IX. Rey no longer hates Kylo, but she's firm about where they both stand and can't be moved with more talking, unless things change on his end she won't budge. They'll probably connect through the force at least once, but yeah they'll need to spend time actually together, probably in a life-and-death kinda situation.
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Post by nana7marie on Mon 16 Jul 2018, 2:50 am

@snufkin wrote:@SW_Heroine_Journey I mean look at this shot of Rey after she's saved the members of the Resistance who didn't get killed thanks to Poe's stupidity

Episode IX: Spoilers and Rumors - Page 39 Ezgif-3-6b98b4d180

Even Threepio has somebody talking to him with R2 just standing there as part of the conversation. Rey's just sitting there awkward and by herself (alone again) until Leia notices her. The Resistance is two for two in this happening with Rey in a moment where they should be thanking her for saving them,
@snufkin
This is what was most striking for me, combined with the shot of Rey alone with a sad and longing expression on her face - when somebody saves your life, it’s obvious and kinda natural really that you thank them for doing so. It’s even more important here cos Rey’s been thinking of herself as an insignificant nobody and this ‘thank you for saving my life’ would be pretty meaningful for her - it’s acknowledging that somebody has done something crucial for you and by doing so the two of you become somehow more connected. Instead, we just see the Resistance wide-eyed and with their jaws dropped when Rey is lifting the rocks - it comes across more like ‘WOW, we’ve got a real Jedi amongst us!’ than ‘OMG, she’s saved my life, I don’t know what to say!’. Both Leia’s comforting words at the end and Poe’s introduction - even though they point out Rey’s not an insignificant nobody, on the contrary - add to this in my opinion. The fact that there’s been no ‘thank you’ is pretty significant and really makes me think it’d be a waste not to show how Rey’s not fully satisfied with her new ‘belonging’ - it just seems natural that IX will make her a poster Jedi for the Resistance and she’ll feel awkward about it and long for the deep connection she had with Kylo.
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Post by snufkin on Mon 16 Jul 2018, 1:07 pm

@nana7marie

The gif I used disappeared and this is the best approximation juxtaposing Rey sitting alone with that sad/wistful expression on her face while even in the background, even Threepio has somebody to talk to (and R2 is hanging out with them).

Episode IX: Spoilers and Rumors - Page 39 Tumblr_p5o7v2nCEL1v734zlo2_540

Episode IX: Spoilers and Rumors - Page 39 Tumblr_p5o7v2nCEL1v734zlo4_540

She's found some footing with that group, but the repetition of the themes about belonging and finding her place (including when Ben majorly inserts his head up his a**) are there for a reason. The same reason both directors in tandem with their cinematographers and editors composed those shots.

FWIW, I've seen arguments made that this moment is Rey being sad/jealous that Finn has found Rose or that she's sad/missing Ben. Which I think it can be both and reducing it down to one is wrongheaded because it's not about fandom arguments. She's both happy/sad in that she's witnessing Finn's care for Rose, that he's found somebody and showing his naturally caring side which makes him a valued/loved friend. But that moment also shows her alone again the same way she was at the coda for TFA. Finn has traveled further than she has in integrating with that group than she has been able to -- which underlies their backgrounds. He was part of a group, hence wanting to be selfish/break free until he comes full circle in TLJ and commits himself to the fight/cause. Versus Rey, who was always on her own and had to be on her own to survive. She'll always be a loner, even in that situation. And the expectation that the Resistance is 100% her found family/belonging will likely get knocked on its head for IX. Even with her disappearance during the interim - I think Rian and the writers working with him (which included Carrie Fisher) just couldn't figure out what to do with Rey without tipping the story's hand in a direction that undercuts the separation/estrangement that will be part of the conflict and arc for her relationship with Ben in IX.

Final thought about reviewing how these two scenes were composed using photography, blocking, and editing - there's no way in Hell anything we'd see in a Colin Trevorrow version of IX would've been able to match this. Or if it did, it would've been because LF hired a cinematographer and editing team who were capable of doing this. Like or hate the writing, Rian has worked with Steven Yedlin on 3 previous films using these visual storytelling techniques and put in time as a director for Breaking Bad and Terriers. Trevorrow OTOH had plenty of comments aside from the bad writing for JW and BoH just about the rudimentary ability and lack of finesse in using the medium beyond just the script and basic shots (his "JW was my film school/grad school experience" comment is not for nothing.") For all the complaining about Mystery Box, over-reliance of nostalgia, or personal dislike of characters, look at how TFA is put together. It's a beautifully shot/edited film and we've certainly discussed moments like Rey's introduction, the bridge scene, and Snow Fight for how it told the story without exposition. So I expect to see more of that, and in critical character moments like the above, with JJ directing. And that's why a lot of us here have landed at that conclusion, versus what the fandom hivemind has argued -- because we've noticed and spent time on/analyzed how the medium of film is part of telling the story beyond the writing and acting.
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Post by Piper Maru on Mon 16 Jul 2018, 3:01 pm

@snufkin wrote:@nana7marie

The gif I used disappeared and this is the best approximation juxtaposing Rey sitting alone with that sad/wistful expression on her face while even in the background, even Threepio has somebody to talk to (and R2 is hanging out with them).

Episode IX: Spoilers and Rumors - Page 39 Tumblr_p5o7v2nCEL1v734zlo2_540

Episode IX: Spoilers and Rumors - Page 39 Tumblr_p5o7v2nCEL1v734zlo4_540

She's found some footing with that group, but the repetition of the themes about belonging and finding her place (including when Ben majorly inserts his head up his a**) are there for a reason. The same reason both directors in tandem with their cinematographers and editors composed those shots.

FWIW, I've seen arguments made that this moment is Rey being sad/jealous that Finn has found Rose or that she's sad/missing Ben. Which I think it can be both and reducing it down to one is wrongheaded because it's not about fandom arguments. She's both happy/sad in that she's witnessing Finn's care for Rose, that he's found somebody and showing his naturally caring side which makes him a valued/loved friend. But that moment also shows her alone again the same way she was at the coda for TFA. Finn has traveled further than she has in integrating with that group than she has been able to -- which underlies their backgrounds. He was part of a group, hence wanting to be selfish/break free until he comes full circle in TLJ and commits himself to the fight/cause. Versus Rey, who was always on her own and had to be on her own to survive. She'll always be a loner, even in that situation. And the expectation that the Resistance is 100% her found family/belonging will likely get knocked on its head for IX. Even with her disappearance during the interim - I think Rian and the writers working with him (which included Carrie Fisher) just couldn't figure out what to do with Rey without tipping the story's hand in a direction that undercuts the separation/estrangement that will be part of the conflict and arc for her relationship with Ben in IX.

Final thought about reviewing how these two scenes were composed using photography, blocking, and editing - there's no way in Hell anything we'd see in a Colin Trevorrow version of IX would've been able to match this. Or if it did, it would've been because LF hired a cinematographer and editing team who were capable of doing this. Like or hate the writing, Rian has worked with Steven Yedlin on 3 previous films using these visual storytelling techniques and put in time as a director for Breaking Bad and Terriers. Trevorrow OTOH had plenty of comments aside from the bad writing for JW and BoH just about the rudimentary ability and lack of finesse in using the medium beyond just the script and basic shots (his "JW was my film school/grad school experience" comment is not for nothing.") For all the complaining about Mystery Box, over-reliance of nostalgia, or personal dislike of characters, look at how TFA is put together. It's a beautifully shot/edited film and we've certainly discussed moments like Rey's introduction, the bridge scene, and Snow Fight for how it told the story without exposition. So I expect to see more of that, and in critical character moments like the above, with JJ directing. And that's why a lot of us here have landed at that conclusion, versus what the fandom hivemind has argued -- because we've noticed and spent time on/analyzed how the medium of film is part of telling the story beyond the writing and acting.
@snufkin

Thank you so much for this post. I just finished reading Jedi the Last and the author writes Rey's finale in a way that totally corroborates with your post. Rey asks privately if she's feeling jealous, which already show us that it's more than that; she's alone again, when everyone — even her best friend — has someone. It's the perfect "surrounded by people but still feeling empty scenario", which also ties with her relationship with Ben, that is based heavily upon the Lonely Together trope.
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Post by snufkin on Mon 16 Jul 2018, 4:04 pm

@Piper Maru For a second I misread that as the Lonely Tiger trope, but that’s exactly why I immediately thought of Out of Sight, the Before trilogy, and Columbus for the type of relationship a supposed heroine and villain have. Which in those films are intimate, romantic, and I can fully be myself when I’m with you. Which isn’t how she’s depicted (fully being herself), even with the other characters she cares about. Or why Ben’s line, “just you” is very specific.
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