The Resistance/ Rebellion and leadership

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Re: The Resistance/ Rebellion and leadership

Post by DeeBee on Mon 05 Feb 2018, 7:19 pm

@snufkin wrote:@DeeBee - Funny you should mention that scene because everybody always looks out for "I've got a bad feelings about this," but garbage is a running word/motif in the OT, especially for Han and Leia. Which you see Rey using that word when she first spots the Falcon while outrunning the TIE fighters ("The one's garbage") and then guess what word crops up between Ben and Rey in their confrontations about what happened with her parents, "they threw you away like garbage." Garbage as a word has a pretty specific significance in what it's used to describe and who uses that word. "We'll float away like the rest of the garbage" = Ben's parents.
@snufkin

Yep! there is also the well known line from Kylo on Crait about the MF "Blow that piece of junk out of the sky!!!!"
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Re: The Resistance/ Rebellion and leadership

Post by nickandnora on Tue 06 Feb 2018, 8:28 am

My best guesses as to how the dynamic within the Resistance will unfold is:

Rey/Poe - antagonistic. I'm certain of it as I'm certain of anything in any story.

Rey/Rose - friendship/sisterly bond (as much as can be developed in one film). A female/female friendship is SORELY (like severely) needed in these stories and it's been set up so perfectly here with Rose's loss of her sister and Rey's search for a family.

Rey/Finn - this is the one I'm most unsure of, actually. My suspicion is that it's going to be a complicated mix of the above. Finn will likely side with Poe at some junctures, with Rey at others. Their "ideal" friendship will likely face some cold hard realities, but I do think that overall Rey and Finn will remain friends, in an entirely platonic sense.

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Re: The Resistance/ Rebellion and leadership

Post by Night Huntress on Tue 06 Feb 2018, 8:34 am

@nickandnora wrote:My best guesses as to how the dynamic within the Resistance will unfold is:

Rey/Poe - antagonistic. I'm certain of it as I'm certain of anything in any story.

Rey/Rose - friendship/sisterly bond (as much as can be developed in one film). A female/female friendship is SORELY (like severely) needed in these stories and it's been set up so perfectly here with Rose's loss of her sister and Rey's search for a family.

Rey/Finn - this is the one I'm most unsure of, actually. My suspicion is that it's going to be a complicated mix of the above. Finn will likely side with Poe at some junctures, with Rey at others. Their "ideal" friendship will likely face some cold hard realities, but I do think that overall Rey and Finn will remain friends, in an entirely platonic sense.
@nickandnora

I agree with all three of your predicted dynamics.

It would be also ironic how Rey and Poe smiled briefly at each other by the end of TLJ and many people were jumping to conclusions about how there could be something romantic between them...only to discover "this is not going to go the way you think..." Razz


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Re: The Resistance/ Rebellion and leadership

Post by Geralt_Riv on Tue 06 Feb 2018, 10:26 am

@DeeBee wrote:
@snufkin wrote:@DeeBee - Funny you should mention that scene because everybody always looks out for "I've got a bad feelings about this," but garbage is a running word/motif in the OT, especially for Han and Leia. Which you see Rey using that word when she first spots the Falcon while outrunning the TIE fighters ("The one's garbage") and then guess what word crops up between Ben and Rey in their confrontations about what happened with her parents, "they threw you away like garbage." Garbage as a word has a pretty specific significance in what it's used to describe and who uses that word. "We'll float away like the rest of the garbage" = Ben's parents.
@snufkin

Yep! there is also the well known line from Kylo on Crait about the MF "Blow that piece of junk out of the sky!!!!"
@DeeBee

In that scene we found out that Ben spent most of his childhood with his uncle. Laughing

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Re: The Resistance/ Rebellion and leadership

Post by ISeeAnIsland on Tue 06 Feb 2018, 12:56 pm

@Night Huntress wrote:
@nickandnora wrote:My best guesses as to how the dynamic within the Resistance will unfold is:

Rey/Poe - antagonistic. I'm certain of it as I'm certain of anything in any story.

Rey/Rose - friendship/sisterly bond (as much as can be developed in one film). A female/female friendship is SORELY (like severely) needed in these stories and it's been set up so perfectly here with Rose's loss of her sister and Rey's search for a family.

Rey/Finn - this is the one I'm most unsure of, actually. My suspicion is that it's going to be a complicated mix of the above. Finn will likely side with Poe at some junctures, with Rey at others. Their "ideal" friendship will likely face some cold hard realities, but I do think that overall Rey and Finn will remain friends, in an entirely platonic sense.
@nickandnora

I agree with all three of your predicted dynamics.

It would be also ironic how Rey and Poe smiled briefly at each other by the end of TLJ and many people were jumping to conclusions about how there could be something romantic between them...only to discover "this is not going to go the way you think..." Razz


@Night Huntress

I am a big fan of the idea that the exchanged smile/Damerey speculation is all going to be subverted by what Rey and Poe's dynamic actually turns out to be in IX.
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Re: The Resistance/ Rebellion and leadership

Post by DeeBee on Tue 06 Feb 2018, 6:11 pm

@nickandnora wrote:My best guesses as to how the dynamic within the Resistance will unfold is:

Rey/Poe - antagonistic. I'm certain of it as I'm certain of anything in any story.

Rey/Rose - friendship/sisterly bond (as much as can be developed in one film). A female/female friendship is SORELY (like severely) needed in these stories and it's been set up so perfectly here with Rose's loss of her sister and Rey's search for a family.

Rey/Finn - this is the one I'm most unsure of, actually. My suspicion is that it's going to be a complicated mix of the above. Finn will likely side with Poe at some junctures, with Rey at others. Their "ideal" friendship will likely face some cold hard realities, but I do think that overall Rey and Finn will remain friends, in an entirely platonic sense.
@nickandnora
I like your take on these three dynamics. Fingers crossed we get this Smile
I do wonder how Rey being in the picture will influence the Finn/Rose relationship…
Yeah I’m not keen on any new characters being introduced into the core set of characters…
A female friendship would be fantastic.. Leia and Holdo seemed great friends but they really didn’t get much time together before Holdo sacrificed herself. Still I found it was enough and very touching.
I keep thinking I don’t want too much time on Rey and anyone except Kylo/Ben rofl!

@”ISeeAnIsland” @”Night Huntress”
– lol I can see it now, if a hint of Rey/Poe hostility gets out in the lead up to the movie release, many fans will be cheering for an enemies to lovers story in IX. Ohhh the irony haaaa..

@”Geralt_Riv” – haaaa that’s a great one! That line of Luke’s is one of his best!
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Re: The Resistance/ Rebellion and leadership

Post by Kylo Men on Sat 10 Feb 2018, 7:44 am

I would say that if the prequels damaged the reputation of the Jedi, the sequel trilogy is in the same way damaging the reputation of the Rebellion/Resistance, to me, at least, and it seems to a decent number of you. Because, in the end, there's something about the Resistance that seems kind of unlikable and, further, untrustworthy due to their incompetence. It's hard to root for a gang to take over the galaxy when it seems like it can't get its act together, especially after Republicanism just failed for the second time, and their disorganization and weird internal politics make it extremely likely that they will fail again.  The First Order might be evil (although it remains to be seen if the Ren administration will be), but at least they have some idea of what they're doing and it's not going to be a total train wreck. Incompetence in high places is its own sort of evil.

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Re: The Resistance/ Rebellion and leadership

Post by Teo oswald on Sat 10 Feb 2018, 10:03 am

My problem is Poe as a new leader.

Princess Leia Organa (Carrie Fisher) called off the attack on the dreadnaught when the situation became too dangerous. Poe chose to disobey her orders and continue the attack.

While Poe’s actions allowed the Rebel Alliance to land a small victory against The First Order, his actions led to the loss of multiple lives and Rebel bombers. These people’s lives were valuable. So were the ships that were lost.

This victory was bittersweet.



Poe was thrilled he’d taken down one of The First Order’s dreadnaughts. He believed his actions were praise-worthy. Leia had another thing for him.

She saw the cost of the attack. Multiple bombers. The lives of the pilots who were shot down. There was a cost to the victory. She saw it. Poe did not.

Admiral Holdo (Laura Dern) took command after General Organawas injured. She was promoted to general. This promotion came with a huge challenge.
Admiral Holdo did what great leaders do. She rallied the troops. She gave a speech that helped turn the hearts and minds of the Rebels back to their cause.

While the Rebels may be hurting, she said, they’re still a symbol of hope. A symbol of hope to the downcast and trodden upon. These few words sparked something within the remaining Rebel Alliance members and they rose to the occasion.
Great leaders don’t only give direction. Great leaders give hope. They inspire and encourage those they lead. They help people see WHAT IS POSSIBLE if they work together.

Rose was quite a wise character in Star Wars: The Last Jedi. This line was really powerful.
"That’s how we’re going to win. Not fighting for what we hate. Saving what we love"

Poe had made quite a few mistakes during the events of The Last Jedi. He’d led multiple Rebels to their deaths, lost valuable Rebel ships, and more. Yet there came a time when General Organa knew she could pass the leadership baton to Poe
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Re: The Resistance/ Rebellion and leadership

Post by DeeBee on Sat 10 Feb 2018, 8:11 pm

@Kylo Men wrote:I would say that if the prequels damaged the reputation of the Jedi, the sequel trilogy is in the same way damaging the reputation of the Rebellion/Resistance, to me, at least, and it seems to a decent number of you. Because, in the end, there's something about the Resistance that seems kind of unlikable and, further, untrustworthy due to their incompetence. It's hard to root for a gang to take over the galaxy when it seems like it can't get its act together, especially after Republicanism just failed for the second time, and their disorganization and weird internal politics make it extremely likely that they will fail again.  The First Order might be evil (although it remains to be seen if the Ren administration will be), but at least they have some idea of what they're doing and it's not going to be a total train wreck. Incompetence in high places is its own sort of evil.
@Kylo Men

Yeah I am kind of surprised to find I am agreeing with this.. I know it's not supposed to be the case.. but it kinda is lol.

I think maybe what would have helped was if we had been reminded of the cruelty of the FO in a more tangible way in TLJ.
we had dialogue or the running crawl telling us they were merciless and Rose's story.. but we don't see it. The only direct cruelty we see the FO carrying out is aimed at the resistance alone.
Any other suffering in the world we see in TLJ is a result of arms dealers, problem gamblers, animal cruelty or cruel slave owners - so not directly a result of the FO. I think. ? Or have I missed something?

I mean Hux killed billions of people in TFA but it doesn't even get a mention in TLJ. I think the audience could have benefitted from a reminder - to underline that while the resistance has it's problems, it is not a danger to the galaxy anywhere near equivalent to the FO. Just my 2 cents.. The sheer evil the FO as an organisation gets a little lost along the way. Maybe this is in part because Kylo/Ben is with the FO at this point also, and we like him and/or want to like him and route for him.. So we can maybe be tempted to downplay the evil of the FO as a result.
I want a reminder of this in IX, but I really don't want this tied back to Kylo/Ben either!

With Leia no longer leading the resistance in IX, this does create a path for Rey to be at loggerheads with resistance leadership in a way that would have been less likely had Leia still been in charge. Interesting stories ahead!!!
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Re: The Resistance/ Rebellion and leadership

Post by SoloSideCousin on Sun 11 Feb 2018, 1:33 am

@DeeBee wrote:
@Kylo Men wrote:I would say that if the prequels damaged the reputation of the Jedi, the sequel trilogy is in the same way damaging the reputation of the Rebellion/Resistance, to me, at least, and it seems to a decent number of you. Because, in the end, there's something about the Resistance that seems kind of unlikable and, further, untrustworthy due to their incompetence. It's hard to root for a gang to take over the galaxy when it seems like it can't get its act together, especially after Republicanism just failed for the second time, and their disorganization and weird internal politics make it extremely likely that they will fail again.  The First Order might be evil (although it remains to be seen if the Ren administration will be), but at least they have some idea of what they're doing and it's not going to be a total train wreck. Incompetence in high places is its own sort of evil.
@Kylo Men

Yeah I am kind of surprised to find I am agreeing with this.. I know it's not supposed to be the case.. but it kinda is lol.

I think maybe what would have helped was if we had been reminded of the cruelty of the FO in a more tangible way in TLJ.
we had dialogue or the running crawl telling us they were merciless and Rose's story.. but we don't see it. The only direct cruelty we see the FO carrying out is aimed at the resistance alone.
Any other suffering in the world we see in TLJ is a result of arms dealers, problem gamblers, animal cruelty or cruel slave owners - so not directly a result of the FO. I think. ? Or have I missed something?

I mean Hux killed billions of people in TFA but it doesn't even get a mention in TLJ. I think the audience could have benefitted from a reminder - to underline that while the resistance has it's problems, it is not a danger to the galaxy anywhere near equivalent to the FO. Just my 2 cents.. The sheer evil the FO as an organisation gets a little lost along the way. Maybe this is in part because Kylo/Ben is with the FO at this point also, and we like him and/or want to like him and route for him.. So we can maybe be tempted to downplay the evil of the FO as a result.  
I want a reminder of this in IX, but I really don't want this tied back to Kylo/Ben either!

With Leia no longer leading the resistance in IX, this does create a path for Rey to be at loggerheads with resistance leadership in a way that would have been less likely had Leia still been in charge. Interesting stories ahead!!!
@DeeBee

I agree @Kylo Men, the Resistance/Rebellion really is taking a beating like the Jedi in the PT. And if you read any of the books, particularly Bloodline, the product/dream of the Rebellion, the Republic, looks even worse.

In both the PT and in Bloodline, both Republic government structures are mind-numbingly stupid. In the PT, the Republic doesn't even work as a government. It seems like it's like some Galactic UN that couldn't get a small local vaccine progam started, nevermind a Security Council or peacekeeping missions.There's no sense of a G20, the WTO, the international court, when in reality it should be a real government, with a real charter, with actual procedural rules in legislation.  It has none of that.  It's actually suggested that Padme go to the courts because her planet is being invaded.  Are you kidding me?

In the end, the Senate looks like a pack of squabbling kids, constantly on the verge of a fight, with some theocratic police above them all to keep them in thrall and in line. For being around for 1000 years old, it really seems to have no maturity whatsoever. The planets act like tribes. For all their talk of democracy and veneer of civilization, they come across as a much more primitive society, where they need some Charlemagne to start getting control of all the warlords. It's almost like they are not ready for anything else, and hence, like the Catholic Chruch in early medieval times, it's the Jedi who hold it together... And that kind of set-up was never going to be sustainable.

As for Mon Mothma's Republic, it sounds like the whole thing was set up like a house of cards, with Mon Mothma being the cult of personality that held it together. And that kind of government is never sustainable because it is based on nothing. Also there is no sense of structure in that government, no federalism, no leadership beyond Mon Mothma's charisma, so structure-wise it is actually worse than the first Republic because there was some kind of leader of the Senate in that government charter.  In Bloodline they are trying to invent the President role. It's stupid and short sighted. Also, for all their idealism, it seems like they left a lot of planets in the dust.

ETA: As for the FO, they are bad. But once again they are led by a cult of personality and his disgusting cult beliefs and his followers. It's unsustainable as well. The underlying officers hate Hux. Ren wants something different. I don't know if Ren can rebuild out of that,  but damn, I don't blame him for not believing in the Rebellion's mission, because they talk a good game, but tend not to deliver.
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Re: The Resistance/ Rebellion and leadership

Post by CienaRee on Sun 11 Feb 2018, 6:24 am

@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@DeeBee wrote:
@Kylo Men wrote:I would say that if the prequels damaged the reputation of the Jedi, the sequel trilogy is in the same way damaging the reputation of the Rebellion/Resistance, to me, at least, and it seems to a decent number of you. Because, in the end, there's something about the Resistance that seems kind of unlikable and, further, untrustworthy due to their incompetence. It's hard to root for a gang to take over the galaxy when it seems like it can't get its act together, especially after Republicanism just failed for the second time, and their disorganization and weird internal politics make it extremely likely that they will fail again.  The First Order might be evil (although it remains to be seen if the Ren administration will be), but at least they have some idea of what they're doing and it's not going to be a total train wreck. Incompetence in high places is its own sort of evil.
@Kylo Men

Yeah I am kind of surprised to find I am agreeing with this.. I know it's not supposed to be the case.. but it kinda is lol.

I think maybe what would have helped was if we had been reminded of the cruelty of the FO in a more tangible way in TLJ.
we had dialogue or the running crawl telling us they were merciless and Rose's story.. but we don't see it. The only direct cruelty we see the FO carrying out is aimed at the resistance alone.
Any other suffering in the world we see in TLJ is a result of arms dealers, problem gamblers, animal cruelty or cruel slave owners - so not directly a result of the FO. I think. ? Or have I missed something?

I mean Hux killed billions of people in TFA but it doesn't even get a mention in TLJ. I think the audience could have benefitted from a reminder - to underline that while the resistance has it's problems, it is not a danger to the galaxy anywhere near equivalent to the FO. Just my 2 cents.. The sheer evil the FO as an organisation gets a little lost along the way. Maybe this is in part because Kylo/Ben is with the FO at this point also, and we like him and/or want to like him and route for him.. So we can maybe be tempted to downplay the evil of the FO as a result.  
I want a reminder of this in IX, but I really don't want this tied back to Kylo/Ben either!

With Leia no longer leading the resistance in IX, this does create a path for Rey to be at loggerheads with resistance leadership in a way that would have been less likely had Leia still been in charge. Interesting stories ahead!!!
@DeeBee

I agree @Kylo Men, the Resistance/Rebellion really is taking a beating like the Jedi in the PT. And if you read any of the books, particularly Bloodline, the product/dream of the Rebellion, the Republic, looks even worse.

In both the PT and in Bloodline, both Republic government structures are mind-numbingly stupid. In the PT, the Republic doesn't even work as a government. It seems like it's like some Galactic UN that couldn't get a small local vaccine progam started, nevermind a Security Council or peacekeeping missions.There's no sense of a G20, the WTO, the international court, when in reality it should be a real government, with a real charter, with actual procedural rules in legislation.  It has none of that.  It's actually suggested that Padme go to the courts because her planet is being invaded.  Are you kidding me?

In the end, the Senate looks like a pack of squabbling kids, constantly on the verge of a fight, with some theocratic police above them all to keep them in thrall and in line. For being around for 1000 years old, it really seems to have no maturity whatsoever. The planets act like tribes. For all their talk of democracy and veneer of civilization, they come across as a much more primitive society, where they need some Charlemagne to start getting control of all the warlords. It's almost like they are not ready for anything else, and hence, like the Catholic Chruch in early medieval times, it's the Jedi who hold it together... And that kind of set-up was never going to be sustainable.

As for Mon Mothma's Republic, it sounds like the whole thing was set up like a house of cards, with Mon Mothma being the cult of personality that held it together. And that kind of government is never sustainable because it is based on nothing. Also there is no sense of structure in that government, no federalism, no leadership beyond Mon Mothma's charisma, so structure-wise it is actually worse than the first Republic because there was some kind of leader of the Senate in that government charter.  In Bloodline they are trying to invent the President role. It's stupid and short sighted. Also, for all their idealism, it seems like they left a lot of planets in the dust.

ETA: As for the FO, they are bad. But once again they are led by a cult of personality and his disgusting cult beliefs and his followers. It's unsustainable as well. The underlying officers hate Hux. Ren wants something different. I don't know if Ren can rebuild out of that,  but damn, I don't blame him for not believing in the Rebellion's mission, because they talk a good game, but tend not to deliver.
@SoloSideCousin

That's a great analysis,you said exactly what I was thinking. Claps
The problem also is that in Bloodline it's revealed that Leia starts the Resistance because she's fed up with the Republic not doing anything so what I fail to understand is why she or any other member want to so badly restore a system that doesn't work and failed BOTH times.I mean you can excuse Leia for supporting the Republic the first time around since she wasn't born yet when the corruption in the first one was happening but the second time?There's no excuse for it especially when young people's lives are put at stakes and you can say they volunteered for it but they just like Leia once upon a time wouldn't know any better and we actually get a hint of that with Rose having no idea that the Resistance buy weapons not just the FO) or if they do well that makes them even more unlikable.Which also makes me wonder does Leia know about Resistance fighters buying weapons from planets who profit from the exploitation and slavery of others since she is their leader after all.
That's also the thing we have no idea why these people want to join in the cause beyond the ''fighting for liberty''cliché because we know nothing of their personalities they exist just to fight for the cause and as a result end up being one dimensional generic characters.
It would be great if Rey questioned their motives because come on the Republic hasn't done anything to stop the corruption and exploitation of people on planets like Jakku so it would make no sense for Rey to be their cheerleader,it just doesn't no matter how you spin it which is also why Rian exploringa ll these grey themes with the Resistance only to revert them back to the ''good guys''everyone should root for makes no sense to me GL in the OT never tried to paint the Rebellion as morally gray and it's why people bought into the whole good rebels vs evil imperials.If Rian didn't intend to go anywhere with this idea then he simply shouldn't have attempted it just for the sake of it.
Having all this in mind no wonder Ben hates th Resistance so much and want them destroyed when you look at the facts it makes the Resistance look like terrorists who want to restore a system that doesn't work pretty much how Ben sees them.

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Re: The Resistance/ Rebellion and leadership

Post by SkyStar on Sun 11 Feb 2018, 9:56 am

@Kylo Men wrote:I would say that if the prequels damaged the reputation of the Jedi, the sequel trilogy is in the same way damaging the reputation of the Rebellion/Resistance, to me, at least, and it seems to a decent number of you. Because, in the end, there's something about the Resistance that seems kind of unlikable and, further, untrustworthy due to their incompetence. It's hard to root for a gang to take over the galaxy when it seems like it can't get its act together, especially after Republicanism just failed for the second time, and their disorganization and weird internal politics make it extremely likely that they will fail again.  The First Order might be evil (although it remains to be seen if the Ren administration will be), but at least they have some idea of what they're doing and it's not going to be a total train wreck. Incompetence in high places is its own sort of evil.
@Kylo Men

I agree. To think of it - if failure is supposed to moral of the movie it is kind of strange to use war to teach that it's ok to fail. Because failing at war comes at a great price and it's not really the same as to fail on a personal level and then just start over being motivated again. 
I mean maybe I am just too rational here, but oh well.
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Re: The Resistance/ Rebellion and leadership

Post by SoloSideCousin on Sun 11 Feb 2018, 4:21 pm

@CienaRee wrote:
@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@DeeBee wrote:
@Kylo Men wrote:I would say that if the prequels damaged the reputation of the Jedi, the sequel trilogy is in the same way damaging the reputation of the Rebellion/Resistance, to me, at least, and it seems to a decent number of you. Because, in the end, there's something about the Resistance that seems kind of unlikable and, further, untrustworthy due to their incompetence. It's hard to root for a gang to take over the galaxy when it seems like it can't get its act together, especially after Republicanism just failed for the second time, and their disorganization and weird internal politics make it extremely likely that they will fail again.  The First Order might be evil (although it remains to be seen if the Ren administration will be), but at least they have some idea of what they're doing and it's not going to be a total train wreck. Incompetence in high places is its own sort of evil.
@Kylo Men

Yeah I am kind of surprised to find I am agreeing with this.. I know it's not supposed to be the case.. but it kinda is lol.

I think maybe what would have helped was if we had been reminded of the cruelty of the FO in a more tangible way in TLJ.
we had dialogue or the running crawl telling us they were merciless and Rose's story.. but we don't see it. The only direct cruelty we see the FO carrying out is aimed at the resistance alone.
Any other suffering in the world we see in TLJ is a result of arms dealers, problem gamblers, animal cruelty or cruel slave owners - so not directly a result of the FO. I think. ? Or have I missed something?

I mean Hux killed billions of people in TFA but it doesn't even get a mention in TLJ. I think the audience could have benefitted from a reminder - to underline that while the resistance has it's problems, it is not a danger to the galaxy anywhere near equivalent to the FO. Just my 2 cents.. The sheer evil the FO as an organisation gets a little lost along the way. Maybe this is in part because Kylo/Ben is with the FO at this point also, and we like him and/or want to like him and route for him.. So we can maybe be tempted to downplay the evil of the FO as a result.  
I want a reminder of this in IX, but I really don't want this tied back to Kylo/Ben either!

With Leia no longer leading the resistance in IX, this does create a path for Rey to be at loggerheads with resistance leadership in a way that would have been less likely had Leia still been in charge. Interesting stories ahead!!!
@DeeBee

I agree @Kylo Men, the Resistance/Rebellion really is taking a beating like the Jedi in the PT. And if you read any of the books, particularly Bloodline, the product/dream of the Rebellion, the Republic, looks even worse.

In both the PT and in Bloodline, both Republic government structures are mind-numbingly stupid. In the PT, the Republic doesn't even work as a government. It seems like it's like some Galactic UN that couldn't get a small local vaccine progam started, nevermind a Security Council or peacekeeping missions.There's no sense of a G20, the WTO, the international court, when in reality it should be a real government, with a real charter, with actual procedural rules in legislation.  It has none of that.  It's actually suggested that Padme go to the courts because her planet is being invaded.  Are you kidding me?

In the end, the Senate looks like a pack of squabbling kids, constantly on the verge of a fight, with some theocratic police above them all to keep them in thrall and in line. For being around for 1000 years old, it really seems to have no maturity whatsoever. The planets act like tribes. For all their talk of democracy and veneer of civilization, they come across as a much more primitive society, where they need some Charlemagne to start getting control of all the warlords. It's almost like they are not ready for anything else, and hence, like the Catholic Chruch in early medieval times, it's the Jedi who hold it together... And that kind of set-up was never going to be sustainable.

As for Mon Mothma's Republic, it sounds like the whole thing was set up like a house of cards, with Mon Mothma being the cult of personality that held it together. And that kind of government is never sustainable because it is based on nothing. Also there is no sense of structure in that government, no federalism, no leadership beyond Mon Mothma's charisma, so structure-wise it is actually worse than the first Republic because there was some kind of leader of the Senate in that government charter.  In Bloodline they are trying to invent the President role. It's stupid and short sighted. Also, for all their idealism, it seems like they left a lot of planets in the dust.

ETA: As for the FO, they are bad. But once again they are led by a cult of personality and his disgusting cult beliefs and his followers. It's unsustainable as well. The underlying officers hate Hux. Ren wants something different. I don't know if Ren can rebuild out of that,  but damn, I don't blame him for not believing in the Rebellion's mission, because they talk a good game, but tend not to deliver.
@SoloSideCousin

That's a great analysis,you said exactly what I was thinking. Claps
The problem also is that in Bloodline it's revealed that Leia starts the Resistance because she's fed up with the Republic not doing anything so what I fail to understand is why she or any other member want to so badly restore a system that doesn't work and failed BOTH times.I mean you can excuse Leia for supporting the Republic the first time around since she wasn't born yet when the corruption in the first one was happening but the second time?There's no excuse for it especially when young people's lives are put at stakes and you can say they volunteered for it but they just like Leia once upon a time wouldn't know any better and we actually get a hint of that with Rose having no idea that the Resistance buy weapons not just the FO) or if they do well that makes them even more unlikable.Which also makes me wonder does Leia know about Resistance fighters buying weapons from planets who profit from the exploitation and slavery of others since she is their leader after all.
That's also the thing we have no idea why these people want to join in the cause beyond the ''fighting for liberty''cliché because we know nothing of their personalities they exist just to fight for the cause and as a result end up being one dimensional generic characters.
It would be great if Rey questioned their motives because come on the Republic hasn't done anything to stop the corruption and exploitation of people on planets like Jakku so it would make no sense for Rey to be their cheerleader,it just doesn't no matter how you spin it which is also why Rian exploringa ll these grey themes with the Resistance only to revert them back to the ''good guys''everyone should root for makes no sense to me GL in the OT never tried to paint the Rebellion as morally gray and it's why people bought into the whole good rebels vs evil imperials.If Rian didn't intend to go anywhere with this idea then he simply shouldn't have attempted it just for the sake of it.
Having all this in mind no wonder Ben hates th Resistance so much and want them destroyed when you look at the facts it makes the Resistance look like terrorists who want to restore a system that doesn't work pretty much how Ben sees them.

OMG! Your post just made me see something that I never saw before! And that is:

Leia is Poe, at least in Bloodline.

Think about it. Poe wants to burn the FO down. Leia says in one of the books that she would "burn the whole galaxy if she thought it was right."

Also, even before the FO comes on the scene, Leia is disillusioned with the process. Yet, when she had those years before the Vader reveal, when she had a ton of "street cred" so to speak, she apparently didn't try to improve the process or "amend the Constitution" so to speak. Instead, she just relied on her old military leader, a benign cult of personality for sure, but the whole thing was being held together by one woman who could die, who was the de facto president, but whose governmen structure did not allow for a smooth transition.

Also, Bloodline shows how she actually missed the war days, like a part of her missed the drama. Now maybe Leia was the best legislator of all time, but the canon materials aren't showing that.

They show her opting for a violent solution as a teenager, as opposed to Kier's anti-Empire, but less "jump into a war" mindset.

And Bloodline showed that when she realized that the FO was out there, her first thought was not to try to go through public protesting or a media campaign to tell the galaxy what she found, thus putting the heat on the FO. Instead, her first thought was to hide a cache of weapons and begin a paramilitary group. It would be like Winston Churchill secretly starting his own paramilitary group when people didn't want to hear about Hitler. He didn't do that.  Instead, he talked, talked, talked ... and a lot of people thought he was crazy too.

She doesn't do that, because in the end she is not a political theorist or legislator, she is a warrior. In fact, if you look at this in a really hardcore way, the way she chooses to fight the FO's rise leads directly to the destruction of the Republic.

I just watched several of the Hunger Games movies last weekend while cleaning, and one of the main point of these movies is messaging. They used Katniss as the messenger for the atrocities the Capital committed to get the whole country to resist.

Leia could have done the same thing. She could have used footage of the FO's military build-up and made many in the Galaxy suspicious.  She could have someone besides herself deliver the message. It would be dangerous, but it would be telling truth to power. But she didn't do that.  She went right for the weaponry.

Maybe the writers don't care about any of these inconsistencies.  Maybe they think SW needs simple politics because the audience can't handle it (yet somehow the audience handled the Hunger Games). But in everything before TLJ, she is Poe.

She seems to be more sober about it in TLJ, but how many people needed to die for that realization to kick in?

They will probably do nothing with this, but it would be brilliant if Kylo really did learn from his experiences and did turn out to be political theorist that his mother was purported to be, but never was ... because in the end, she was very much Vader's daughter.
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Re: The Resistance/ Rebellion and leadership

Post by CienaRee on Sun 11 Feb 2018, 4:41 pm

@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@CienaRee wrote:
@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@DeeBee wrote:
@Kylo Men wrote:I would say that if the prequels damaged the reputation of the Jedi, the sequel trilogy is in the same way damaging the reputation of the Rebellion/Resistance, to me, at least, and it seems to a decent number of you. Because, in the end, there's something about the Resistance that seems kind of unlikable and, further, untrustworthy due to their incompetence. It's hard to root for a gang to take over the galaxy when it seems like it can't get its act together, especially after Republicanism just failed for the second time, and their disorganization and weird internal politics make it extremely likely that they will fail again.  The First Order might be evil (although it remains to be seen if the Ren administration will be), but at least they have some idea of what they're doing and it's not going to be a total train wreck. Incompetence in high places is its own sort of evil.
@Kylo Men

Yeah I am kind of surprised to find I am agreeing with this.. I know it's not supposed to be the case.. but it kinda is lol.

I think maybe what would have helped was if we had been reminded of the cruelty of the FO in a more tangible way in TLJ.
we had dialogue or the running crawl telling us they were merciless and Rose's story.. but we don't see it. The only direct cruelty we see the FO carrying out is aimed at the resistance alone.
Any other suffering in the world we see in TLJ is a result of arms dealers, problem gamblers, animal cruelty or cruel slave owners - so not directly a result of the FO. I think. ? Or have I missed something?

I mean Hux killed billions of people in TFA but it doesn't even get a mention in TLJ. I think the audience could have benefitted from a reminder - to underline that while the resistance has it's problems, it is not a danger to the galaxy anywhere near equivalent to the FO. Just my 2 cents.. The sheer evil the FO as an organisation gets a little lost along the way. Maybe this is in part because Kylo/Ben is with the FO at this point also, and we like him and/or want to like him and route for him.. So we can maybe be tempted to downplay the evil of the FO as a result.  
I want a reminder of this in IX, but I really don't want this tied back to Kylo/Ben either!

With Leia no longer leading the resistance in IX, this does create a path for Rey to be at loggerheads with resistance leadership in a way that would have been less likely had Leia still been in charge. Interesting stories ahead!!!
@DeeBee

I agree @Kylo Men, the Resistance/Rebellion really is taking a beating like the Jedi in the PT. And if you read any of the books, particularly Bloodline, the product/dream of the Rebellion, the Republic, looks even worse.

In both the PT and in Bloodline, both Republic government structures are mind-numbingly stupid. In the PT, the Republic doesn't even work as a government. It seems like it's like some Galactic UN that couldn't get a small local vaccine progam started, nevermind a Security Council or peacekeeping missions.There's no sense of a G20, the WTO, the international court, when in reality it should be a real government, with a real charter, with actual procedural rules in legislation.  It has none of that.  It's actually suggested that Padme go to the courts because her planet is being invaded.  Are you kidding me?

In the end, the Senate looks like a pack of squabbling kids, constantly on the verge of a fight, with some theocratic police above them all to keep them in thrall and in line. For being around for 1000 years old, it really seems to have no maturity whatsoever. The planets act like tribes. For all their talk of democracy and veneer of civilization, they come across as a much more primitive society, where they need some Charlemagne to start getting control of all the warlords. It's almost like they are not ready for anything else, and hence, like the Catholic Chruch in early medieval times, it's the Jedi who hold it together... And that kind of set-up was never going to be sustainable.

As for Mon Mothma's Republic, it sounds like the whole thing was set up like a house of cards, with Mon Mothma being the cult of personality that held it together. And that kind of government is never sustainable because it is based on nothing. Also there is no sense of structure in that government, no federalism, no leadership beyond Mon Mothma's charisma, so structure-wise it is actually worse than the first Republic because there was some kind of leader of the Senate in that government charter.  In Bloodline they are trying to invent the President role. It's stupid and short sighted. Also, for all their idealism, it seems like they left a lot of planets in the dust.

ETA: As for the FO, they are bad. But once again they are led by a cult of personality and his disgusting cult beliefs and his followers. It's unsustainable as well. The underlying officers hate Hux. Ren wants something different. I don't know if Ren can rebuild out of that,  but damn, I don't blame him for not believing in the Rebellion's mission, because they talk a good game, but tend not to deliver.
@SoloSideCousin

That's a great analysis,you said exactly what I was thinking. Claps
The problem also is that in Bloodline it's revealed that Leia starts the Resistance because she's fed up with the Republic not doing anything so what I fail to understand is why she or any other member want to so badly restore a system that doesn't work and failed BOTH times.I mean you can excuse Leia for supporting the Republic the first time around since she wasn't born yet when the corruption in the first one was happening but the second time?There's no excuse for it especially when young people's lives are put at stakes and you can say they volunteered for it but they just like Leia once upon a time wouldn't know any better and we actually get a hint of that with Rose having no idea that the Resistance buy weapons not just the FO) or if they do well that makes them even more unlikable.Which also makes me wonder does Leia know about Resistance fighters buying weapons from planets who profit from the exploitation and slavery of others since she is their leader after all.
That's also the thing we have no idea why these people want to join in the cause beyond the ''fighting for liberty''cliché because we know nothing of their personalities they exist just to fight for the cause and as a result end up being one dimensional generic characters.
It would be great if Rey questioned their motives because come on the Republic hasn't done anything to stop the corruption and exploitation of people on planets like Jakku so it would make no sense for Rey to be their cheerleader,it just doesn't no matter how you spin it which is also why Rian exploringa ll these grey themes with the Resistance only to revert them back to the ''good guys''everyone should root for makes no sense to me GL in the OT never tried to paint the Rebellion as morally gray and it's why people bought into the whole good rebels vs evil imperials.If Rian didn't intend to go anywhere with this idea then he simply shouldn't have attempted it just for the sake of it.
Having all this in mind no wonder Ben hates th Resistance so much and want them destroyed when you look at the facts it makes the Resistance look like terrorists who want to restore a system that doesn't work pretty much how Ben sees them.

OMG! Your post just made me see something that I never saw before! And that is:

Leia is Poe, at least in Bloodline.

Think about it. Poe wants to burn the FO down. Leia says in one of the books that she would "burn the whole galaxy if she thought it was right."

Also, even before the FO comes on the scene, Leia is disillusioned with the process. Yet, when she had those years before the Vader reveal, when she had a ton of "street cred" so to speak, she apparently didn't try to improve the process or "amend the Constitution" so to speak. Instead, she just relied on her old military leader, a benign cult of personality for sure, but the whole thing was being held together by one woman who could die, who was the de facto president, but whose governmen structure did not allow for a smooth transition.

Also, Bloodline shows how she actually missed the war days, like a part of her missed the drama. Now maybe Leia was the best legislator of all time, but the canon materials aren't showing that.

They show her opting for a violent solution as a teenager, as opposed to Kier's anti-Empire, but less "jump into a war" mindset.

And Bloodline showed that when she realized that the FO was out there, her first thought was not to try to go through public protesting or a media campaign to tell the galaxy what she found, thus putting the heat on the FO. Instead, her first thought was to hide a cache of weapons and begin a paramilitary group. It would be like Winston Churchill secretly starting his own paramilitary group when people didn't want to hear about Hitler. He didn't do that.  Instead, he talked, talked, talked ... and a lot of people thought he was crazy too.

She doesn't do that, because in the end she is not a political theorist or legislator, she is a warrior. In fact, if you look at this in a really hardcore way, the way she chooses to fight the FO's rise leads directly to the destruction of the Republic.

I just watched several of the Hunger Games movies last weekend while cleaning, and one of the main point of these movies is messaging. They used Katniss as the messenger for the atrocities the Capital committed to get the whole country to resist.

Leia could have done the same thing. She could have used footage of the FO's military build-up and made many in the Galaxy suspicious.  She could have someone besides herself deliver the message. It would be dangerous, but it would be telling truth to power. But she didn't do that.  She went right for the weaponry.

Maybe the writers don't care about any of these inconsistencies.  Maybe they think SW needs simple politics because the audience can't handle it (yet somehow the audience handled the Hunger Games). But in everything before TLJ, she is Poe.

She seems to be more sober about it in TLJ, but how many people needed to die for that realization to kick in?

They will probably do nothing with this, but it would be brilliant if Kylo really did learn from his experiences and did turn out to be political theorist that his mother was purported to be, but never was ... because in the end, she was very much Vader's daughter.
@SoloSideCousin

Oh yeah,definitely I can see a lot of young Leia and even Leia from Bloodline in Poe.This whole discourse made me think how Bloodline could have been foreshadowing of Leia giving up on her son and not trying to help him the same way she was going to quit the Republic without trying to do something different than what they've been doing the past twenty years or so(basically nothing).
Again no wonder Ben wanted to born the whole thing down and start something new.I don't want to bash on Leia or anything but Ben actually comes off looking better than her or the Republic for that matter-yes his methods are wrong and misguided but his ideas of starting something new aren't and I would be disappointed if he's portrayed as being one hundred percent wrong because he isn't.
It's really interesting how the movies keep emphasizing Ben being more like Han in personality instead of drawing any parallels or similarities between him and Leia eventhough some fans assumed that he was a mama's boy but maybe there's a reason for that.

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Re: The Resistance/ Rebellion and leadership

Post by motherofpearl1 on Fri 16 Feb 2018, 2:39 am

I think that in some ways Kylo had the right idea at the end but went about it in the wrong way. What he could have done was immediately order the FO to stop firing on the surviving rebels, and offer them pardons if they essentially disbanded and went home. That might very well have convinced Rey to join him. Problem is....Kylo sees them as terrorists. And knowing Poe he might very well have refused to surrender.
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Re: The Resistance/ Rebellion and leadership

Post by Night Huntress on Fri 16 Feb 2018, 4:34 am

@motherofpearl1 wrote:I think that in some ways Kylo had the right idea at the end but went about it in the wrong way. What he could have done was immediately order the FO to stop firing on the surviving rebels, and offer them pardons if they essentially disbanded and went home. That might very well have convinced Rey to join him. Problem is....Kylo sees them as terrorists. And knowing Poe he might very well have refused to surrender.
@motherofpearl1

I already talked about it elsewhere... I'm not so sure he could've done that so easily. Hux didn't know Snoke was dead at that point and I doubt he would have obeyed Ben's orders without an good explanation or demanding hearing that order from Snoke himself. And I doubt he would have accepted Kylo as new Supreme Leader from a save distance Confus

I have to be honest I'm glad he didn't simply does what Rey requests in that scene. He shouldn't stop the attack because of HER he should stop it because he believes it's wrong- and he isn't there yet. He shouldn't give up his personal believes for HER (no matter how wrong they are) just as much as she shouldn't give up hers for HIM. Their relationship wouldn't have worked like that in my opinion.

Ben has to realize himself that he is wrong...Adam often said in interviews. He doesn't think Kylo is evil he think he is right and that's why there is no limit to what he does because he thinks it's morally justified. His whole perception of how the galaxy works and what's morally right has to change.

That's why I think making him Renperor is exactly the right choice narratively. Now he is in the position to finally realize it's not just about WHO rules as a Dictator- but the concept of a Dictatorship that's wrong. That no matter how well intended the ruler is- he can't execute his goals with this kind of government.
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Re: The Resistance/ Rebellion and leadership

Post by rawpowah on Fri 16 Feb 2018, 5:36 am

I agree with @Night Huntress . If Ben had ordered for the fleet to stop attacking the Resistance, who would have listened to him? Nobody. Who is he to decide what the FO should do with the military? They're not his men.

Ben even had to force choke Hux and take power, just so he could take all the military and ATTACK the Resistance. If there was opposition to Ben ordering an attack on the enemy, imagine how much opposition there would be to stopping an attack. Kylo would probably be dead lmao. Sure, he can stop a blaster bolt, but at some point you can't defeat sheer numbers no matter how powerful in the force you are. Even Luke had to project himself to have any shot at saving the Resistance, because if he'd show up in person he'd likely die shot by an AT-AT lol.

I like the idea that Kylo has to figure out by himself that what he is doing is wrong, and not because Rey said so. That shows strength of character and keeps his agency. This is something that's important for both characters to have before they can be together.
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Re: The Resistance/ Rebellion and leadership

Post by motherofpearl1 on Fri 16 Feb 2018, 6:27 am

And not just Kylo....I want Rey to also have an epiphany. I can see Kylo trying to be a benevolent ruler, and discovering Hux has other ideas, which might very well cause a split in the FO itself. And Rey finding out that the Resistance, under Poe, are not the saints she thinks they are. Or maybe they are forced to increase ranks by hiring a few Saw Guerrera types - I can see Rey being horrified if a Resistance attack costs civilians their lives.
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Re: The Resistance/ Rebellion and leadership

Post by Teo oswald on Fri 16 Feb 2018, 7:41 am

Hux is a pure evil, they say everything about kylo but I'm afraid of hux Smile He could dethrone Snoke if he wanted (or maybe not) but he respected Snoke, he wanted to be the best in his eyes. With kylo ..... pure contempt.
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Re: The Resistance/ Rebellion and leadership

Post by motherofpearl1 on Fri 16 Feb 2018, 9:03 am

Its funny, but perhaps they should forget the notion of an all powerful galactic government and instead allow the planets to rule themselves. I always remember the sci fi series Andromeda... and how the heroes risked and sacrificed a lot to bring back the Systems Commonwealth only for them to turn out a big disappointment.
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Re: The Resistance/ Rebellion and leadership

Post by giaciak2 on Fri 16 Feb 2018, 9:59 am

@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@CienaRee wrote:
@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@DeeBee wrote:
@Kylo Men wrote:I would say that if the prequels damaged the reputation of the Jedi, the sequel trilogy is in the same way damaging the reputation of the Rebellion/Resistance, to me, at least, and it seems to a decent number of you. Because, in the end, there's something about the Resistance that seems kind of unlikable and, further, untrustworthy due to their incompetence. It's hard to root for a gang to take over the galaxy when it seems like it can't get its act together, especially after Republicanism just failed for the second time, and their disorganization and weird internal politics make it extremely likely that they will fail again.  The First Order might be evil (although it remains to be seen if the Ren administration will be), but at least they have some idea of what they're doing and it's not going to be a total train wreck. Incompetence in high places is its own sort of evil.
@Kylo Men

Yeah I am kind of surprised to find I am agreeing with this.. I know it's not supposed to be the case.. but it kinda is lol.

I think maybe what would have helped was if we had been reminded of the cruelty of the FO in a more tangible way in TLJ.
we had dialogue or the running crawl telling us they were merciless and Rose's story.. but we don't see it. The only direct cruelty we see the FO carrying out is aimed at the resistance alone.
Any other suffering in the world we see in TLJ is a result of arms dealers, problem gamblers, animal cruelty or cruel slave owners - so not directly a result of the FO. I think. ? Or have I missed something?

I mean Hux killed billions of people in TFA but it doesn't even get a mention in TLJ. I think the audience could have benefitted from a reminder - to underline that while the resistance has it's problems, it is not a danger to the galaxy anywhere near equivalent to the FO. Just my 2 cents.. The sheer evil the FO as an organisation gets a little lost along the way. Maybe this is in part because Kylo/Ben is with the FO at this point also, and we like him and/or want to like him and route for him.. So we can maybe be tempted to downplay the evil of the FO as a result.  
I want a reminder of this in IX, but I really don't want this tied back to Kylo/Ben either!

With Leia no longer leading the resistance in IX, this does create a path for Rey to be at loggerheads with resistance leadership in a way that would have been less likely had Leia still been in charge. Interesting stories ahead!!!
@DeeBee

I agree @Kylo Men, the Resistance/Rebellion really is taking a beating like the Jedi in the PT. And if you read any of the books, particularly Bloodline, the product/dream of the Rebellion, the Republic, looks even worse.

In both the PT and in Bloodline, both Republic government structures are mind-numbingly stupid. In the PT, the Republic doesn't even work as a government. It seems like it's like some Galactic UN that couldn't get a small local vaccine progam started, nevermind a Security Council or peacekeeping missions.There's no sense of a G20, the WTO, the international court, when in reality it should be a real government, with a real charter, with actual procedural rules in legislation.  It has none of that.  It's actually suggested that Padme go to the courts because her planet is being invaded.  Are you kidding me?

In the end, the Senate looks like a pack of squabbling kids, constantly on the verge of a fight, with some theocratic police above them all to keep them in thrall and in line. For being around for 1000 years old, it really seems to have no maturity whatsoever. The planets act like tribes. For all their talk of democracy and veneer of civilization, they come across as a much more primitive society, where they need some Charlemagne to start getting control of all the warlords. It's almost like they are not ready for anything else, and hence, like the Catholic Chruch in early medieval times, it's the Jedi who hold it together... And that kind of set-up was never going to be sustainable.

As for Mon Mothma's Republic, it sounds like the whole thing was set up like a house of cards, with Mon Mothma being the cult of personality that held it together. And that kind of government is never sustainable because it is based on nothing. Also there is no sense of structure in that government, no federalism, no leadership beyond Mon Mothma's charisma, so structure-wise it is actually worse than the first Republic because there was some kind of leader of the Senate in that government charter.  In Bloodline they are trying to invent the President role. It's stupid and short sighted. Also, for all their idealism, it seems like they left a lot of planets in the dust.

ETA: As for the FO, they are bad. But once again they are led by a cult of personality and his disgusting cult beliefs and his followers. It's unsustainable as well. The underlying officers hate Hux. Ren wants something different. I don't know if Ren can rebuild out of that,  but damn, I don't blame him for not believing in the Rebellion's mission, because they talk a good game, but tend not to deliver.
@SoloSideCousin

That's a great analysis,you said exactly what I was thinking. Claps
The problem also is that in Bloodline it's revealed that Leia starts the Resistance because she's fed up with the Republic not doing anything so what I fail to understand is why she or any other member want to so badly restore a system that doesn't work and failed BOTH times.I mean you can excuse Leia for supporting the Republic the first time around since she wasn't born yet when the corruption in the first one was happening but the second time?There's no excuse for it especially when young people's lives are put at stakes and you can say they volunteered for it but they just like Leia once upon a time wouldn't know any better and we actually get a hint of that with Rose having no idea that the Resistance buy weapons not just the FO) or if they do well that makes them even more unlikable.Which also makes me wonder does Leia know about Resistance fighters buying weapons from planets who profit from the exploitation and slavery of others since she is their leader after all.
That's also the thing we have no idea why these people want to join in the cause beyond the ''fighting for liberty''cliché because we know nothing of their personalities they exist just to fight for the cause and as a result end up being one dimensional generic characters.
It would be great if Rey questioned their motives because come on the Republic hasn't done anything to stop the corruption and exploitation of people on planets like Jakku so it would make no sense for Rey to be their cheerleader,it just doesn't no matter how you spin it which is also why Rian exploringa ll these grey themes with the Resistance only to revert them back to the ''good guys''everyone should root for makes no sense to me GL in the OT never tried to paint the Rebellion as morally gray and it's why people bought into the whole good rebels vs evil imperials.If Rian didn't intend to go anywhere with this idea then he simply shouldn't have attempted it just for the sake of it.
Having all this in mind no wonder Ben hates th Resistance so much and want them destroyed when you look at the facts it makes the Resistance look like terrorists who want to restore a system that doesn't work pretty much how Ben sees them.

OMG! Your post just made me see something that I never saw before! And that is:

Leia is Poe, at least in Bloodline.

Think about it. Poe wants to burn the FO down. Leia says in one of the books that she would "burn the whole galaxy if she thought it was right."

Also, even before the FO comes on the scene, Leia is disillusioned with the process. Yet, when she had those years before the Vader reveal, when she had a ton of "street cred" so to speak, she apparently didn't try to improve the process or "amend the Constitution" so to speak. Instead, she just relied on her old military leader, a benign cult of personality for sure, but the whole thing was being held together by one woman who could die, who was the de facto president, but whose governmen structure did not allow for a smooth transition.

Also, Bloodline shows how she actually missed the war days, like a part of her missed the drama. Now maybe Leia was the best legislator of all time, but the canon materials aren't showing that.

They show her opting for a violent solution as a teenager, as opposed to Kier's anti-Empire, but less "jump into a war" mindset.

And Bloodline showed that when she realized that the FO was out there, her first thought was not to try to go through public protesting or a media campaign to tell the galaxy what she found, thus putting the heat on the FO. Instead, her first thought was to hide a cache of weapons and begin a paramilitary group. It would be like Winston Churchill secretly starting his own paramilitary group when people didn't want to hear about Hitler. He didn't do that.  Instead, he talked, talked, talked ... and a lot of people thought he was crazy too.

She doesn't do that, because in the end she is not a political theorist or legislator, she is a warrior. In fact, if you look at this in a really hardcore way, the way she chooses to fight the FO's rise leads directly to the destruction of the Republic.

I just watched several of the Hunger Games movies last weekend while cleaning, and one of the main point of these movies is messaging. They used Katniss as the messenger for the atrocities the Capital committed to get the whole country to resist.

Leia could have done the same thing. She could have used footage of the FO's military build-up and made many in the Galaxy suspicious.  She could have someone besides herself deliver the message. It would be dangerous, but it would be telling truth to power. But she didn't do that.  She went right for the weaponry.

Maybe the writers don't care about any of these inconsistencies.  Maybe they think SW needs simple politics because the audience can't handle it (yet somehow the audience handled the Hunger Games). But in everything before TLJ, she is Poe.

She seems to be more sober about it in TLJ, but how many people needed to die for that realization to kick in?

They will probably do nothing with this, but it would be brilliant if Kylo really did learn from his experiences and did turn out to be political theorist that his mother was purported to be, but never was ... because in the end, she was very much Vader's daughter.
@SoloSideCousin

Beautiful intuition. We hope it will be like this.
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Re: The Resistance/ Rebellion and leadership

Post by motherofpearl1 on Fri 16 Feb 2018, 10:16 am

@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@CienaRee wrote:
@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@DeeBee wrote:
@Kylo Men wrote:I would say that if the prequels damaged the reputation of the Jedi, the sequel trilogy is in the same way damaging the reputation of the Rebellion/Resistance, to me, at least, and it seems to a decent number of you. Because, in the end, there's something about the Resistance that seems kind of unlikable and, further, untrustworthy due to their incompetence. It's hard to root for a gang to take over the galaxy when it seems like it can't get its act together, especially after Republicanism just failed for the second time, and their disorganization and weird internal politics make it extremely likely that they will fail again.  The First Order might be evil (although it remains to be seen if the Ren administration will be), but at least they have some idea of what they're doing and it's not going to be a total train wreck. Incompetence in high places is its own sort of evil.
@Kylo Men

Yeah I am kind of surprised to find I am agreeing with this.. I know it's not supposed to be the case.. but it kinda is lol.

I think maybe what would have helped was if we had been reminded of the cruelty of the FO in a more tangible way in TLJ.
we had dialogue or the running crawl telling us they were merciless and Rose's story.. but we don't see it. The only direct cruelty we see the FO carrying out is aimed at the resistance alone.
Any other suffering in the world we see in TLJ is a result of arms dealers, problem gamblers, animal cruelty or cruel slave owners - so not directly a result of the FO. I think. ? Or have I missed something?

I mean Hux killed billions of people in TFA but it doesn't even get a mention in TLJ. I think the audience could have benefitted from a reminder - to underline that while the resistance has it's problems, it is not a danger to the galaxy anywhere near equivalent to the FO. Just my 2 cents.. The sheer evil the FO as an organisation gets a little lost along the way. Maybe this is in part because Kylo/Ben is with the FO at this point also, and we like him and/or want to like him and route for him.. So we can maybe be tempted to downplay the evil of the FO as a result.  
I want a reminder of this in IX, but I really don't want this tied back to Kylo/Ben either!

With Leia no longer leading the resistance in IX, this does create a path for Rey to be at loggerheads with resistance leadership in a way that would have been less likely had Leia still been in charge. Interesting stories ahead!!!
@DeeBee

I agree @Kylo Men, the Resistance/Rebellion really is taking a beating like the Jedi in the PT. And if you read any of the books, particularly Bloodline, the product/dream of the Rebellion, the Republic, looks even worse.

In both the PT and in Bloodline, both Republic government structures are mind-numbingly stupid. In the PT, the Republic doesn't even work as a government. It seems like it's like some Galactic UN that couldn't get a small local vaccine progam started, nevermind a Security Council or peacekeeping missions.There's no sense of a G20, the WTO, the international court, when in reality it should be a real government, with a real charter, with actual procedural rules in legislation.  It has none of that.  It's actually suggested that Padme go to the courts because her planet is being invaded.  Are you kidding me?

In the end, the Senate looks like a pack of squabbling kids, constantly on the verge of a fight, with some theocratic police above them all to keep them in thrall and in line. For being around for 1000 years old, it really seems to have no maturity whatsoever. The planets act like tribes. For all their talk of democracy and veneer of civilization, they come across as a much more primitive society, where they need some Charlemagne to start getting control of all the warlords. It's almost like they are not ready for anything else, and hence, like the Catholic Chruch in early medieval times, it's the Jedi who hold it together... And that kind of set-up was never going to be sustainable.

As for Mon Mothma's Republic, it sounds like the whole thing was set up like a house of cards, with Mon Mothma being the cult of personality that held it together. And that kind of government is never sustainable because it is based on nothing. Also there is no sense of structure in that government, no federalism, no leadership beyond Mon Mothma's charisma, so structure-wise it is actually worse than the first Republic because there was some kind of leader of the Senate in that government charter.  In Bloodline they are trying to invent the President role. It's stupid and short sighted. Also, for all their idealism, it seems like they left a lot of planets in the dust.

ETA: As for the FO, they are bad. But once again they are led by a cult of personality and his disgusting cult beliefs and his followers. It's unsustainable as well. The underlying officers hate Hux. Ren wants something different. I don't know if Ren can rebuild out of that,  but damn, I don't blame him for not believing in the Rebellion's mission, because they talk a good game, but tend not to deliver.
@SoloSideCousin

That's a great analysis,you said exactly what I was thinking. Claps
The problem also is that in Bloodline it's revealed that Leia starts the Resistance because she's fed up with the Republic not doing anything so what I fail to understand is why she or any other member want to so badly restore a system that doesn't work and failed BOTH times.I mean you can excuse Leia for supporting the Republic the first time around since she wasn't born yet when the corruption in the first one was happening but the second time?There's no excuse for it especially when young people's lives are put at stakes and you can say they volunteered for it but they just like Leia once upon a time wouldn't know any better and we actually get a hint of that with Rose having no idea that the Resistance buy weapons not just the FO) or if they do well that makes them even more unlikable.Which also makes me wonder does Leia know about Resistance fighters buying weapons from planets who profit from the exploitation and slavery of others since she is their leader after all.
That's also the thing we have no idea why these people want to join in the cause beyond the ''fighting for liberty''cliché because we know nothing of their personalities they exist just to fight for the cause and as a result end up being one dimensional generic characters.
It would be great if Rey questioned their motives because come on the Republic hasn't done anything to stop the corruption and exploitation of people on planets like Jakku so it would make no sense for Rey to be their cheerleader,it just doesn't no matter how you spin it which is also why Rian exploringa ll these grey themes with the Resistance only to revert them back to the ''good guys''everyone should root for makes no sense to me GL in the OT never tried to paint the Rebellion as morally gray and it's why people bought into the whole good rebels vs evil imperials.If Rian didn't intend to go anywhere with this idea then he simply shouldn't have attempted it just for the sake of it.
Having all this in mind no wonder Ben hates th Resistance so much and want them destroyed when you look at the facts it makes the Resistance look like terrorists who want to restore a system that doesn't work pretty much how Ben sees them.

OMG! Your post just made me see something that I never saw before! And that is:

Leia is Poe, at least in Bloodline.

Think about it. Poe wants to burn the FO down. Leia says in one of the books that she would "burn the whole galaxy if she thought it was right."

Also, even before the FO comes on the scene, Leia is disillusioned with the process. Yet, when she had those years before the Vader reveal, when she had a ton of "street cred" so to speak, she apparently didn't try to improve the process or "amend the Constitution" so to speak. Instead, she just relied on her old military leader, a benign cult of personality for sure, but the whole thing was being held together by one woman who could die, who was the de facto president, but whose governmen structure did not allow for a smooth transition.

Also, Bloodline shows how she actually missed the war days, like a part of her missed the drama. Now maybe Leia was the best legislator of all time, but the canon materials aren't showing that.

They show her opting for a violent solution as a teenager, as opposed to Kier's anti-Empire, but less "jump into a war" mindset.

And Bloodline showed that when she realized that the FO was out there, her first thought was not to try to go through public protesting or a media campaign to tell the galaxy what she found, thus putting the heat on the FO. Instead, her first thought was to hide a cache of weapons and begin a paramilitary group. It would be like Winston Churchill secretly starting his own paramilitary group when people didn't want to hear about Hitler. He didn't do that.  Instead, he talked, talked, talked ... and a lot of people thought he was crazy too.

She doesn't do that, because in the end she is not a political theorist or legislator, she is a warrior. In fact, if you look at this in a really hardcore way, the way she chooses to fight the FO's rise leads directly to the destruction of the Republic.

I just watched several of the Hunger Games movies last weekend while cleaning, and one of the main point of these movies is messaging. They used Katniss as the messenger for the atrocities the Capital committed to get the whole country to resist.

Leia could have done the same thing. She could have used footage of the FO's military build-up and made many in the Galaxy suspicious.  She could have someone besides herself deliver the message. It would be dangerous, but it would be telling truth to power. But she didn't do that.  She went right for the weaponry.

Maybe the writers don't care about any of these inconsistencies.  Maybe they think SW needs simple politics because the audience can't handle it (yet somehow the audience handled the Hunger Games). But in everything before TLJ, she is Poe.

She seems to be more sober about it in TLJ, but how many people needed to die for that realization to kick in?

They will probably do nothing with this, but it would be brilliant if Kylo really did learn from his experiences and did turn out to be political theorist that his mother was purported to be, but never was ... because in the end, she was very much Vader's daughter.
@SoloSideCousin

Rey also went straight for the weaponry, didn't she? And watching Leia in TLJ, I wonder if when Poe made his stupid quest if she saw herself in him?
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Re: The Resistance/ Rebellion and leadership

Post by DeeBee on Sat 17 Feb 2018, 7:00 pm

@SoloSideCousin – I’m always excited to learn more about the novels as I haven’t read them. Haven’t brought myself to pay the money! Whereas comics I can source free..

Anyway so it’s great to learn more of the events in bloodline. I am not across all the details, but it’s interesting to consider the unfolding events and the state of the force.
I wonder if the new republic was not a success because it did not have force users in the role of peacekeepers.
Also, I see the failings of the government in the PTs as having many contributing factors – but the big driving force was Darth Sidious/ the resurrection of the Sith/ and the corrupting influence of the dark side.
Yes the system was not without flaws – I’m thinking evil got a foothold and much of what unfolded was directly related to the machinations of Darth Sidious. The blockades, the response, the conflict about what to do about it.. he was behind all of it playing them like a fiddle so he could ascend to become emperor.

I don’t think the message of SW is that democracy is a failed experiment whose time has passed.

I don’t know very much about the new republic.. Can you tell me where you learned about Mon Moathma’s republic? The New republic sounds a little like the European union – maybe with rotating leadership..

I would agree that being led by personality is not going to lead to successful governance..
Whatever the resistance/rebellion is fighting for I think it will be a democracy, which is not dependant on a strong personality to see it through. I have ideas about how this could end but I’ll just say that in TLJ we aren’t really given any clues -other than Holdo’s line about restoring the republic.

It’s interesting to hear your thoughts of what went wrong with the new republic SoloSideCousin.

Can I check if I have understood correctly the events leading up to TFA?
If I have understood correctly, the remnants of the empire signed a treaty, then went off to the outer rim to regroup, rebrand and reestablish themselves as the FO under Snoke.
Again, I think Dark Side Snoke was left to collect evil, to build up evil – and former empire members taught the next generation that the old republic was evil and had to be stopped.. [we learned Hux was raised with these beliefs].
Leia didn’t trust the treaty to be honoured. [I tend to think this was her force abilities helped her to be wise.]
The new republic was naïve/overly optimistic and didn’t believe the FO or old empire were a threat.

The starwars databank says: “After the Battle of Endor, the New Republic reached an uneasy peace with the remnants of the Galactic Empire. Believing the Empire was no longer a threat, the New Republic reduced its military capabilities, despite Leia’s warning that the Imperial remnants could not be trusted. When her concerns were dismissed as paranoid warmongering, Leia formed the Resistance, a secret military force that keeps watch on the restive First Order.” [Leia entry]

Anyway, it seems the new republic reduced the military, but had no Jedi to act as peacekeepers either.
but.. we had this in TFA opening crawl:
"With the support of the REPUBLIC, General Leia Organa leads a brave RESISTANCE. She is desperate to find her brother Luke and gain his help in restoring peace and justice to the galaxy."
-Interesting that Leia thought Luke was needed to restore peace and justice.
Reminds me of of LST saying without the Jedi there can be no balance..

-the mentioned 'support of the republic' is interesting too...seems the new republic tried to have it both ways - reduce the military, and then they hit the panic button and started to show an interest in supporting Leia when the FO's true colours were revealed. Have I understood this correctly?

The Jedi were not playing the role of peacekeepers in the galaxy from the end of ROTS.… from ANH to ROTJ there was the resurrection of the jedi with Luke's coming of age.. Then, after ROTJ, Luke was off on his quest, and then eventually tried to start a new order – but this was snuffed out by Ben [Under the influence of Snoke].
I wonder if the war is in part because the Jedi have not been in this role.. And is this a reason why Snoke was instrumental in Luke’s new jedi order ending? And why he wanted so badly to kill Luke Skywalker? Is this because of the Jedi role as galaxy peacekeepers?
The future role of force users in the galaxy and how they would work with government and the people is a curious one.. At least it is to me haaa. Part of what could have been missing in the new republic was balanced Jedi to watch out for lack of balance in the galaxy/ the rise of evil/ and to act as peacekeepers…
Just pondering – this is all new thoughts for me!

Oh and one last thing..
the star wars databank for the new republic is very slim on details.. but it states this:
"The Rebel Alliance became the New Republic after its victory over the Empire at the Battle of Endor. Eager to win over the war-weary citizens of the galaxy, the New Republic revived the Senate, signed a peace treaty – the Galactic Concordance – with the Empire’s remnants, and drastically reduced its military capabilities. That policy aroused the ire of rebel hero Leia Organa, who warned that elements of the Empire were still seeking power. Sidelined from the political process, Organa founded the Resistance to oppose the Empire’s successor state, the mysterious First Order."
- Leia being sidelined from the political process is interesting..
Okay I gotta run bye!
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Re: The Resistance/ Rebellion and leadership

Post by SoloSideCousin on Sun 18 Feb 2018, 3:06 am

@DeeBee wrote:@SoloSideCousin – I’m always excited to learn more about the novels as I haven’t read them. Haven’t brought myself to pay the money! Whereas comics I can source free..

Anyway so it’s great to learn more of the events in bloodline. I am not across all the details, but it’s interesting to consider the unfolding events and the state of the force.
I wonder if the new republic was not a success because it did not have force users in the role of peacekeepers.
Also, I see the failings of the government in the PTs as having many contributing factors – but the big driving force was Darth Sidious/ the resurrection of the Sith/ and the corrupting influence of the dark side.
Yes the system was not without flaws – I’m thinking evil got a foothold and much of what unfolded was directly related to the machinations of Darth Sidious. The blockades, the response, the conflict about what to do about it.. he was behind all of it playing them like a fiddle so he could ascend to become emperor.

I don’t think the message of SW is that democracy is a failed experiment whose time has passed.

I don’t know very much about the new republic.. Can you tell me where you learned about Mon Moathma’s republic? The New republic sounds a little like the European union – maybe with rotating leadership..

I would agree that being led by personality is not going to lead to successful governance..
Whatever the resistance/rebellion is fighting for I think it will be a democracy, which is not dependant on a strong personality to see it through. I have ideas about how this could end but I’ll just say that in TLJ we aren’t really given any clues -other than Holdo’s line about restoring the republic.

It’s interesting to hear your thoughts of what went wrong with the new republic SoloSideCousin.

Can I check if I have understood correctly the events leading up to TFA?
If I have understood correctly, the remnants of the empire signed a treaty, then went off to the outer rim to regroup, rebrand and reestablish themselves as the FO under Snoke.
Again, I think Dark Side Snoke was left to collect evil, to build up evil – and former empire members taught the next generation that the old republic was evil and had to be stopped.. [we learned Hux was raised with these beliefs].
Leia didn’t trust the treaty to be honoured. [I tend to think this was her force abilities helped her to be wise.]
The new republic was naïve/overly optimistic and didn’t believe the FO or old empire were a threat.

The starwars databank says: “After the Battle of Endor, the New Republic reached an uneasy peace with the remnants of the Galactic Empire. Believing the Empire was no longer a threat, the New Republic reduced its military capabilities, despite Leia’s warning that the Imperial remnants could not be trusted. When her concerns were dismissed as paranoid warmongering, Leia formed the Resistance, a secret military force that keeps watch on the restive First Order.” [Leia entry]

Anyway, it seems the new republic reduced the military, but had no Jedi to act as peacekeepers either.
but.. we had this in TFA opening crawl:
"With the support of the REPUBLIC, General Leia Organa leads a brave RESISTANCE. She is desperate to find her brother Luke and gain his help in restoring peace and justice to the galaxy."
-Interesting that Leia thought Luke was needed to restore peace and justice.
Reminds me of of LST saying without the Jedi there can be no balance..

-the mentioned 'support of the republic' is interesting too...seems the new republic tried to have it both ways - reduce the military, and then they hit the panic button and started to show an interest in supporting Leia when the FO's true colours were revealed. Have I understood this correctly?

The Jedi were not playing the role of peacekeepers in the galaxy from the end of ROTS.… from ANH to ROTJ there was the resurrection of the jedi with Luke's coming of age.. Then, after ROTJ, Luke was off on his quest, and then eventually tried to start a new order – but this was snuffed out by Ben [Under the influence of Snoke].
I wonder if the war is in part because the Jedi have not been in this role.. And is this a reason why Snoke was instrumental in Luke’s new jedi order ending? And why he wanted so badly to kill Luke Skywalker? Is this because of the Jedi role as galaxy peacekeepers?
The future role of force users in the galaxy and how they would work with government and the people is a curious one.. At least it is to me haaa. Part of what could have been missing in the new republic was balanced Jedi to watch out for lack of balance in the galaxy/ the rise of evil/ and to act as peacekeepers…
Just pondering – this is all new thoughts for me!

Oh and one last thing..
the star wars databank for the new republic is very slim on details.. but it states this:
"The Rebel Alliance became the New Republic after its victory over the Empire at the Battle of Endor. Eager to win over the war-weary citizens of the galaxy, the New Republic revived the Senate, signed a peace treaty – the Galactic Concordance – with the Empire’s remnants, and drastically reduced its military capabilities. That policy aroused the ire of rebel hero Leia Organa, who warned that elements of the Empire were still seeking power. Sidelined from the political process, Organa founded the Resistance to oppose the Empire’s successor state, the mysterious First Order."
- Leia being sidelined from the political process is interesting..
Okay I gotta run bye!
@DeeBee

Okay, you have talked about a lot of stuff here. My first bit of advice is to check the books out at the library. If you are really interested in the government machinations of the New Republic, you need to read Bloodline and the Aftermath books. There is too much going on to lay it out in a post.

Secondly, the databank excerpts are very misleading. Mon Mothma did reduce the military resources of the New Republic in a seemingly extreme way. I believe that Leia did disagree with that at the time, but it was only after 20+ years that Leia started the Resistance. Also, keep in mind that Leia started this extra-governmental paramilitary group while the Republic was still in existence, and she did it after she had been outed as Vader's daughter and lost her political credibility. Further, she turned towards a violent option when non-violent messaging campaigns might have been a very viable option.

Thirdly, if you read the books, the Jedi getting involved with political affairs was a serious issue as to why they became corrupted and fell. In addition, a proper republic should not rely on a group of religious policeman to keep order. That is not a republic. If you look at the progression of political theory in our world over the past 300 years, governmental structures have reached their most advanced point where parliamentary/republican systems have largely divorced themselves from religious influence. And as a Catholic, I say right now that no religion should have anything to do with the government, that the government needs to rely on its own merits and its own structures and not any significant religious interference. (Like yes, Queen Elizabeth is the head of the Church of England, but the Prime Minister and Parliament don't check in with the Archbishop of Canterbury every time they pass a law).

Finally, I don't think that I ever said that democracy would be taken off the table in Episode IX. That would never happen because SW is not going to be advocating dictatorships. However, the actual political structure of the two republics was inane. In the Old Republic, there seemed to be no procedure or check and balances, nor did that government seem to have any "teeth" to actually accomplish anything. I mean it seems like they didn't even have an army even if they even chose to defend Naboo. Instead, they relied on religious police, one of whom decided that making a bunch of soldier clones was a good thing.

In the New Republic, they dissolved most of their army, even though they had just come out of a civil war situation. They also don't seem to have done anything to reincorporate those who sympathized with the Empire back into the fold. I mean where did all those Imperial officers/contract workers go? Most of them didn't get on a ship to the Unknown Regions. So I guess they went home pissed off and quiet until talk of something called the First Order came around.

IMO, it seemed very much like a post-WWI situation where those Empire people were just told to get used to the new world and that's that. In other words, there is no evidence of any kind of Marshall Plan happening here. Nor a Reconciliation plan, such as seen in South Africa. Also, the Senate just seems inane. There is not an actual leader of the government. No president. No Prime Minister. No Coalition Leader. No Speaker of the House. Most countries that are deemed to be democracies are actually technically not. They are republics, which means that there are leaders and procedures and charters/constitutions that create a set of rules that actually facilitate the legislative process. The New Republic seemed to have none of that. It seems like Mon Mothma played the de facto leader, but when she got sick it all fell apart, because everything was based on her talent of holding things together, and that was the case because apparently there were no rules that provided for layers of leadership and no structures in place for the peaceful transition of power. Instead, it all seems very "tribal council-ish" IMO. As such, as a republic, IMO, they were not very advanced at all. The Galaxy could do a lot better governmental structure-wise.
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Re: The Resistance/ Rebellion and leadership

Post by giaciak2 on Sun 18 Feb 2018, 4:24 am

Dear, I loved what you wrote and historical comparisons. Unfortunately my elementary English limits the expression of my thoughts. I agree with your analysis. I think Star Wars will carry forward the dream of democracy. The freedom of a constitution very similar to the American constitution. We are all the same. There is no race or religion ... ecc ecc. In short, those that are Western values. But I also see in it the emphasis of the French revolution "freedom, legality, equality" (Liberté, Égalité, Fraternité). This is because: 1) no religion must dominate the law 2) There should be no slavery 3) Jedi of light and dark Jedi have to sit both at that table.
The sense is that everyone - nobody excluded - must participate in the peace process. If peace is wanted, everyone must participate to peace. For this . Until there is someone who suffers. There will never be peace.  Sorry for my english!!!!!!


Last edited by giaciak2 on Mon 19 Feb 2018, 5:37 am; edited 1 time in total
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