Leia Organa in Episode IX

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Re: Leia Organa in Episode IX

Post by ZioRen on Wed 20 Dec 2017, 7:55 pm

KrazyForKylo wrote:It was sad but I understood why Leia lost hope. Kylo killed Han and was set on wiping out the Resistance. He didn’t fire on his mother’s ship but I’m not sure that Leia knew it wasn’t him. When the TIE fighters fired on the Raddus, her expression went from hopeful to sad resignation, so even if she knew the truth she couldn’t take any comfort from it.

I love Kylo but I’m not here for blaming Leia or Rey for his actions at the end. It isn’t their responsibility to save him, not now he’s chosen to become Supreme Leader.
@KrazyForKylo

I don't think it's about blaming Leia for Kylo's actions. Honestly, it just makes me bitter to see a mother give up on her own child, particularly one who has been through the mental torment we know Kylo has since childhood. It doesn't sit right with me, ever. Especially since the ending suggests that even Luke hasn't fully given up. 

It's also sort of narratively jarring, since Kylo just made one of his only fully right choices in the entire trilogy so far by definitively choosing not to shoot Leia. If the idea was that she thought he took the shot, that should have been made clear. The fact that we now know the truth about Kylo's past and remain unsure about how much Leia knows of it makes the whole thing sit even worse.

No doubt there was going to be some sort of reconciliation in IX, since it was meant to be "Leia's movie". But now there can't be, and the fact that Leia is left off with that line on the matter makes me sad. It's not so much frustration at Leia's character for me as it is frustration at the whole situation in general from a storytelling perspective. I feel like there can't be satisfying conclusion to that particular aspect of the story anymore.
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Re: Leia Organa in Episode IX

Post by Guest on Wed 20 Dec 2017, 8:10 pm

@ZioRen wrote:
KrazyForKylo wrote:It was sad but I understood why Leia lost hope. Kylo killed Han and was set on wiping out the Resistance. He didn’t fire on his mother’s ship but I’m not sure that Leia knew it wasn’t him. When the TIE fighters fired on the Raddus, her expression went from hopeful to sad resignation, so even if she knew the truth she couldn’t take any comfort from it.

I love Kylo but I’m not here for blaming Leia or Rey for his actions at the end. It isn’t their responsibility to save him, not now he’s chosen to become Supreme Leader.
@KrazyForKylo

I don't think it's about blaming Leia for Kylo's actions. Honestly, it just makes me bitter to see a mother give up on her own child, particularly one who has been through the mental torment we know Kylo has since childhood. It doesn't sit right with me, ever. Especially since the ending suggests that even Luke hasn't fully given up. 

It's also sort of narratively jarring, since Kylo just made one of his only fully right choices in the entire trilogy so far by definitively choosing not to shoot Leia. If the idea was that she thought he took the shot, that should have been made clear. The fact that we now know the truth about Kylo's past and remain unsure about how much Leia knows of it makes the whole thing sit even worse.

No doubt there was going to be some sort of reconciliation in IX, since it was meant to be "Leia's movie". But now there can't be, and the fact that Leia is left off with that line on the matter makes me sad. It's not so much frustration at Leia's character for me as it is frustration at the whole situation in general from a storytelling perspective. I feel like there can't be satisfying conclusion to that particular aspect of the story anymore.
@ZioRen

I do share your frustrations and I agree that the relationship between Kylo and Leia was probably going to be important in Ep IX. I did understand where Leia’s head was at in TLJ, though, and why she couldn’t hold onto hope for her son. She’s always been pragmatic and able to separate great personal tragedy from what she views as the greater good. From the destruction of Alderaan to losing her son to the dark side, it’s not that she doesn’t feel those losses and suffer for them, she just refuses to let them stop her pushing on. She and Kylo are actually very alike, it’s just their beliefs that differ. She couldn’t let go of her hatred and bitterness towards Anakin/Vader as Kylo can’t let go of his towards those who’ve wronged him. At the end, Kylo was pushing the FO to snuff out hope, just like Snoke wanted. He gave Leia no reason not to believe her son was gone forever. We saw a spark of hope at the end, but she didn’t.

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Re: Leia Organa in Episode IX

Post by ZioRen on Wed 20 Dec 2017, 8:17 pm

KrazyForKylo wrote:
@ZioRen wrote:
KrazyForKylo wrote:It was sad but I understood why Leia lost hope. Kylo killed Han and was set on wiping out the Resistance. He didn’t fire on his mother’s ship but I’m not sure that Leia knew it wasn’t him. When the TIE fighters fired on the Raddus, her expression went from hopeful to sad resignation, so even if she knew the truth she couldn’t take any comfort from it.

I love Kylo but I’m not here for blaming Leia or Rey for his actions at the end. It isn’t their responsibility to save him, not now he’s chosen to become Supreme Leader.
@KrazyForKylo

I don't think it's about blaming Leia for Kylo's actions. Honestly, it just makes me bitter to see a mother give up on her own child, particularly one who has been through the mental torment we know Kylo has since childhood. It doesn't sit right with me, ever. Especially since the ending suggests that even Luke hasn't fully given up. 

It's also sort of narratively jarring, since Kylo just made one of his only fully right choices in the entire trilogy so far by definitively choosing not to shoot Leia. If the idea was that she thought he took the shot, that should have been made clear. The fact that we now know the truth about Kylo's past and remain unsure about how much Leia knows of it makes the whole thing sit even worse.

No doubt there was going to be some sort of reconciliation in IX, since it was meant to be "Leia's movie". But now there can't be, and the fact that Leia is left off with that line on the matter makes me sad. It's not so much frustration at Leia's character for me as it is frustration at the whole situation in general from a storytelling perspective. I feel like there can't be satisfying conclusion to that particular aspect of the story anymore.
@ZioRen

I do share your frustrations and I agree that the relationship between Kylo and Leia was probably going to be important in Ep IX. I did understand where Leia’s head was at in TLJ, though, and why she couldn’t hold onto hope for her son. She’s always been pragmatic and able to separate great personal tragedy from what she views as the greater good. From the destruction of Alderaan to losing her son to the dark side, it’s not that she doesn’t feel those losses and suffer for them, she just refuses to let them stop her pushing on. She and Kylo are actually very alike, it’s just their beliefs that differ. She couldn’t let go of her hatred and bitterness towards Anakin/Vader as Kylo can’t let go of his towards those who’ve wronged him. At the end, Kylo was pushing the FO to snuff out hope, just like Snoke wanted. He gave Leia no reason not to believe her son was gone forever. We saw a spark of hope at the end, but she didn’t.
@KrazyForKylo

My point with the 'narratively jarring' aspects is that I personally can't understand where Leia's head is at because we don't know what she knows about her own son, his pain, and his choices. It's something that just wasn't really addressed from either side. It may have been addressed and resolved in IX, but now it can't be. So being left with this makes me shake my head and sigh. I didn't feel like TLJ was a worthy sendoff for Leia at all, but nothing can really be done about it now.
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Re: Leia Organa in Episode IX

Post by Lamiller1390 on Wed 20 Dec 2017, 9:04 pm

Hey guys, new to the site but I am just going to dive right in.

I think there is complex situation going on right here.

I think Leia is genuinely heartbroken at this point. Keep in mind it has not been that long since Han died, the time between TFA and TLJ was a few days, may a couple of weeks. She is grieving tremendously at this point. Not only is Han dead, but he is dead at the hands of her own Son. Part of her feels guilt for... 1) losing her son to the dark side by not being a present mother as she should have and 2) by sending Han after their son, telling him to bring Ben home. I mean... for anyone who has ever lost someone tragically and blamed themselves for it. It is traumatic. I don't think she has totally given up on him, but in that moment in her grief and most likely... anger... she is numb to it all. Numb to the loss of her husband, son, and all the people in the resistance she has lost.

Grief is a powerful force and there are 5 stages everyone goes through in their own time and their own way. So suffusive to say she needs time to adjust to her new reality.

I also do not think Kylo knows that Leia is still alive but in that last scene on Crate. I think that Kylo is just raging. He is angry, hurt, broken, and out of his mind so he is acting very impulsively.

Point and case:
He had just begged Rey to stay with him, literally begged her and she rejected him then vanished. For someone like him who has just gotten ultimate power to BEG someone else to be with him means that his feelings run deep. That kind of rejection can easily create a bit of an overreaction.
On top of that, his former Master Luke shows up (appearing most likely) just as Kylo Remembers him. Short hair, younger, etc... So not only is this already emotionally unstable man heartbroken, but he is now being confronted with the man who (in his mind) tried to Kill Him... PTSD much. DUDE, of course, he's acting crazy and deranged... He is. He is an emotionally complex man, broken and with A LOT of problems to work through.

The fact that he didn't even notice Luke carrying the Blue Lightsaber that had JUST broken between him and Rey is clue number one as to how out of his mind he is. Someone who is trained to be focused and notice something like that. He also didn't think twice about the fact that NONE of the blasters touched Luke... nor that Luke was not making any marks in the salt. At this point, he literally cannot focus or notice things he normally would.

So I mean. I could go on and on about Kylo's mental state and why it makes perfect sense. Why his reactions make sense and where they come from. Hahaha.
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Re: Leia Organa in Episode IX

Post by ISeeAnIsland on Wed 20 Dec 2017, 9:38 pm

@Lamiller1390 wrote:Hey guys, new to the site but I am just going to dive right in.

I think there is complex situation going on right here.

I think Leia is genuinely heartbroken at this point. Keep in mind it has not been that long since Han died, the time between TFA and TLJ was a few days, may a couple of weeks. She is grieving tremendously at this point. Not only is Han dead, but he is dead at the hands of her own Son. Part of her feels guilt for... 1) losing her son to the dark side by not being a present mother as she should have and 2) by sending Han after their son, telling him to bring Ben home. I mean... for anyone who has ever lost someone tragically and blamed themselves for it. It is traumatic. I don't think she has totally given up on him, but in that moment in her grief and most likely... anger... she is numb to it all. Numb to the loss of her husband, son, and all the people in the resistance she has lost.

Grief is a powerful force and there are 5 stages everyone goes through in their own time and their own way. So suffusive to say she needs time to adjust to her new reality.

I also do not think Kylo knows that Leia is still alive but in that last scene on Crate. I think that Kylo is just raging. He is angry, hurt, broken, and out of his mind so he is acting very impulsively.

Point and case:
He had just begged Rey to stay with him, literally begged her and she rejected him then vanished. For someone like him who has just gotten ultimate power to BEG someone else to be with him means that his feelings run deep. That kind of rejection can easily create a bit of an overreaction.
On top of that, his former Master Luke shows up (appearing most likely) just as Kylo Remembers him. Short hair, younger, etc... So not only is this already emotionally unstable man heartbroken, but he is now being confronted with the man who (in his mind) tried to Kill Him... PTSD much. DUDE, of course, he's acting crazy and deranged... He is. He is an emotionally complex man, broken and with A LOT of problems to work through.

The fact that he didn't even notice Luke carrying the Blue Lightsaber that had JUST broken between him and Rey is clue number one as to how out of his mind he is. Someone who is trained to be focused and notice something like that. He also didn't think twice about the fact that NONE of the blasters touched Luke... nor that Luke was not making any marks in the salt. At this point, he literally cannot focus or notice things he normally would.

So I mean. I could go on and on about Kylo's mental state and why it makes perfect sense. Why his reactions make sense and where they come from. Hahaha.
@Lamiller1390

Fantastic post. Welcome to the forum! cheers
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Re: Leia Organa in Episode IX

Post by SoloSideCousin on Wed 20 Dec 2017, 11:53 pm

@ISeeAnIsland wrote:
@Lamiller1390 wrote:Hey guys, new to the site but I am just going to dive right in.

I think there is complex situation going on right here.

I think Leia is genuinely heartbroken at this point. Keep in mind it has not been that long since Han died, the time between TFA and TLJ was a few days, may a couple of weeks. She is grieving tremendously at this point. Not only is Han dead, but he is dead at the hands of her own Son. Part of her feels guilt for... 1) losing her son to the dark side by not being a present mother as she should have and 2) by sending Han after their son, telling him to bring Ben home. I mean... for anyone who has ever lost someone tragically and blamed themselves for it. It is traumatic. I don't think she has totally given up on him, but in that moment in her grief and most likely... anger... she is numb to it all. Numb to the loss of her husband, son, and all the people in the resistance she has lost.

Grief is a powerful force and there are 5 stages everyone goes through in their own time and their own way. So suffusive to say she needs time to adjust to her new reality.

I also do not think Kylo knows that Leia is still alive but in that last scene on Crate. I think that Kylo is just raging. He is angry, hurt, broken, and out of his mind so he is acting very impulsively.

Point and case:
He had just begged Rey to stay with him, literally begged her and she rejected him then vanished. For someone like him who has just gotten ultimate power to BEG someone else to be with him means that his feelings run deep. That kind of rejection can easily create a bit of an overreaction.
On top of that, his former Master Luke shows up (appearing most likely) just as Kylo Remembers him. Short hair, younger, etc... So not only is this already emotionally unstable man heartbroken, but he is now being confronted with the man who (in his mind) tried to Kill Him... PTSD much. DUDE, of course, he's acting crazy and deranged... He is. He is an emotionally complex man, broken and with A LOT of problems to work through.

The fact that he didn't even notice Luke carrying the Blue Lightsaber that had JUST broken between him and Rey is clue number one as to how out of his mind he is. Someone who is trained to be focused and notice something like that. He also didn't think twice about the fact that NONE of the blasters touched Luke... nor that Luke was not making any marks in the salt. At this point, he literally cannot focus or notice things he normally would.

So I mean. I could go on and on about Kylo's mental state and why it makes perfect sense. Why his reactions make sense and where they come from. Hahaha.
@Lamiller1390

Fantastic post. Welcome to the forum! cheers
@ISeeAnIsland

I absolutely agree! Welcome! :-)
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Re: Leia Organa in Episode IX

Post by reylo1992 on Thu 21 Dec 2017, 12:51 am

@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@ISeeAnIsland wrote:
@Lamiller1390 wrote:Hey guys, new to the site but I am just going to dive right in.

I think there is complex situation going on right here.

I think Leia is genuinely heartbroken at this point. Keep in mind it has not been that long since Han died, the time between TFA and TLJ was a few days, may a couple of weeks. She is grieving tremendously at this point. Not only is Han dead, but he is dead at the hands of her own Son. Part of her feels guilt for... 1) losing her son to the dark side by not being a present mother as she should have and 2) by sending Han after their son, telling him to bring Ben home. I mean... for anyone who has ever lost someone tragically and blamed themselves for it. It is traumatic. I don't think she has totally given up on him, but in that moment in her grief and most likely... anger... she is numb to it all. Numb to the loss of her husband, son, and all the people in the resistance she has lost.

Grief is a powerful force and there are 5 stages everyone goes through in their own time and their own way. So suffusive to say she needs time to adjust to her new reality.

I also do not think Kylo knows that Leia is still alive but in that last scene on Crate. I think that Kylo is just raging. He is angry, hurt, broken, and out of his mind so he is acting very impulsively.

Point and case:
He had just begged Rey to stay with him, literally begged her and she rejected him then vanished. For someone like him who has just gotten ultimate power to BEG someone else to be with him means that his feelings run deep. That kind of rejection can easily create a bit of an overreaction.
On top of that, his former Master Luke shows up (appearing most likely) just as Kylo Remembers him. Short hair, younger, etc... So not only is this already emotionally unstable man heartbroken, but he is now being confronted with the man who (in his mind) tried to Kill Him... PTSD much. DUDE, of course, he's acting crazy and deranged... He is. He is an emotionally complex man, broken and with A LOT of problems to work through.

The fact that he didn't even notice Luke carrying the Blue Lightsaber that had JUST broken between him and Rey is clue number one as to how out of his mind he is. Someone who is trained to be focused and notice something like that. He also didn't think twice about the fact that NONE of the blasters touched Luke... nor that Luke was not making any marks in the salt. At this point, he literally cannot focus or notice things he normally would.

So I mean. I could go on and on about Kylo's mental state and why it makes perfect sense. Why his reactions make sense and where they come from. Hahaha.
@Lamiller1390

Fantastic post. Welcome to the forum! cheers
@ISeeAnIsland

I absolutely agree! Welcome! :-)
@SoloSideCousin

Bravo! And welcome Smile

Well, I understand all your points. Now, I really loved TFA Leia but I really didn't like the way TLJ Leia was handled bt Rian. She is the TLJ character I am the least satisfied with.

First, that Supergirl scene that was IMO a really bad idea. Then, we had her in coma during a big part of the movie. And then, I find she did absolutely nothing relevant during the rest of the movie. For the first time, she really seemed to have more a figurative role. And it's no problem that Rian wanted to show her grieving but I didn't manage to emphasize with her because so many things weren't even adressed: how she feels about Han's death, how she feels about Ben, what was their relationship like, why does she give up on him, why doesn't she try to reach out to him, what does the lost of her son means in regard to her bond with her father, etc...

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Re: Leia Organa in Episode IX

Post by Saracene on Thu 21 Dec 2017, 12:58 am

It's pretty depressing to think that Leia is going to die thinking her son gone forever. They were clearly doing "all is lost" so that it gets reversed in Episode IX, but then real life got in the way Sad
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Re: Leia Organa in Episode IX

Post by IoJovi on Thu 21 Dec 2017, 1:00 am

@Saracene wrote:It's pretty depressing to think that Leia is going to die thinking her son gone forever. They were clearly doing "all is lost" so that it gets reversed in Episode IX, but then real life got in the way Sad
@Saracene

I’m still hoping for a recast. That may sound selfish to some but I think Carrie would have wanted Leia’s arc to have a satisfying conclusion. Leia thinking her son is lost forever when he clearly won’t be is just depressing as heck to think about...

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Re: Leia Organa in Episode IX

Post by reylo1992 on Thu 21 Dec 2017, 1:13 am

@IoJovi wrote:
@Saracene wrote:It's pretty depressing to think that Leia is going to die thinking her son gone forever. They were clearly doing "all is lost" so that it gets reversed in Episode IX, but then real life got in the way Sad
@Saracene

I’m still hoping for a recast. That may sound selfish to some but I think Carrie would have wanted Leia’s arc to have a satisfying conclusion. Leia thinking her son is lost forever when he clearly won’t be is just depressing as heck to think about...

@IoJovi

They can also solve that, by showing that Leia had actually never given up on her son (a letter, a box full of Ben's belongings, flashbacks, etc...).I think that J.J. will have to talk about that mother-son relationship, especially from Kylo's POV.
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Re: Leia Organa in Episode IX

Post by DarthRen on Thu 21 Dec 2017, 11:32 am

@IoJovi wrote:
@Saracene wrote:It's pretty depressing to think that Leia is going to die thinking her son gone forever. They were clearly doing "all is lost" so that it gets reversed in Episode IX, but then real life got in the way Sad
@Saracene

I’m still hoping for a recast. That may sound selfish to some but I think Carrie would have wanted Leia’s arc to have a satisfying conclusion. Leia thinking her son is lost forever when he clearly won’t be is just depressing as heck to think about...

@IoJovi

If it's not Carrie then rather no one else. She is Princess Leia,it wouldn't have that emotional impact without her. I know it's pretty bad as it is with seemingly Leia giving up on Ben. Tbh he killed Han, leading FO so you can understand why she felt that way, even if I might dislike it. In the end it's about Ben forgiving his family and to let go of his past. They can have a message from Leia trying to explain everything, Ben's stuff, some remainder. There are ways around it but it'll never be as good as it could have been with Carrie.

@reylo1992 wrote:
@IoJovi wrote:
@Saracene wrote:It's pretty depressing to think that Leia is going to die thinking her son gone forever. They were clearly doing "all is lost" so that it gets reversed in Episode IX, but then real life got in the way Sad
@Saracene

I’m still hoping for a recast. That may sound selfish to some but I think Carrie would have wanted Leia’s arc to have a satisfying conclusion. Leia thinking her son is lost forever when he clearly won’t be is just depressing as heck to think about...

@IoJovi

They can also solve that, by showing that Leia had actually never given up on her son (a letter, a box full of Ben's belongings, flashbacks, etc...).I think that J.J. will have to talk about that mother-son relationship, especially from Kylo's POV.
@reylo1992

I think this might be the best, because Ben has to learn how to forgive his family.
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Re: Leia Organa in Episode IX

Post by SkyStar on Thu 21 Dec 2017, 11:40 am

I wanted them meet in TLJ so bad, but I made peace that it won't happen - that moment with Kylo not shooting Leia was already something. That said they need some kind of closure. Some kind of - I am watching you moment if you know what I mean. I still love you - from both Kylo and Leia.
How to deliver it without Leia being there directly? They did something like that with dice and Han. Where it traveled trough the hands of all the Skywalkers. Perhaps Rey can give Ben something that was Leias? Something about Alderaan. Would some sort of hologram be too overdone? I don't know.
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Re: Leia Organa in Episode IX

Post by Atenais on Thu 21 Dec 2017, 3:55 pm

@Lamiller1390 wrote:Hey guys, new to the site but I am just going to dive right in.

I think there is complex situation going on right here.

I think Leia is genuinely heartbroken at this point. Keep in mind it has not been that long since Han died, the time between TFA and TLJ was a few days, may a couple of weeks. She is grieving tremendously at this point. Not only is Han dead, but he is dead at the hands of her own Son. Part of her feels guilt for... 1) losing her son to the dark side by not being a present mother as she should have and 2) by sending Han after their son, telling him to bring Ben home. I mean... for anyone who has ever lost someone tragically and blamed themselves for it. It is traumatic. I don't think she has totally given up on him, but in that moment in her grief and most likely... anger... she is numb to it all. Numb to the loss of her husband, son, and all the people in the resistance she has lost.

Grief is a powerful force and there are 5 stages everyone goes through in their own time and their own way. So suffusive to say she needs time to adjust to her new reality.

I also do not think Kylo knows that Leia is still alive but in that last scene on Crate. I think that Kylo is just raging. He is angry, hurt, broken, and out of his mind so he is acting very impulsively.

Point and case:
He had just begged Rey to stay with him, literally begged her and she rejected him then vanished. For someone like him who has just gotten ultimate power to BEG someone else to be with him means that his feelings run deep. That kind of rejection can easily create a bit of an overreaction.
On top of that, his former Master Luke shows up (appearing most likely) just as Kylo Remembers him. Short hair, younger, etc... So not only is this already emotionally unstable man heartbroken, but he is now being confronted with the man who (in his mind) tried to Kill Him... PTSD much. DUDE, of course, he's acting crazy and deranged... He is. He is an emotionally complex man, broken and with A LOT of problems to work through.

The fact that he didn't even notice Luke carrying the Blue Lightsaber that had JUST broken between him and Rey is clue number one as to how out of his mind he is. Someone who is trained to be focused and notice something like that. He also didn't think twice about the fact that NONE of the blasters touched Luke... nor that Luke was not making any marks in the salt. At this point, he literally cannot focus or notice things he normally would.

So I mean. I could go on and on about Kylo's mental state and why it makes perfect sense. Why his reactions make sense and where they come from. Hahaha.
@Lamiller1390

Wow, what a great observation!!! Thanks for sharing your opinion and welcome to the forum. I love you

Also, thinking about how attentive Rian was about these small details, I can't feel happier to have him as the director of this movie.
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Re: Leia Organa in Episode IX

Post by fuhry on Thu 21 Dec 2017, 4:27 pm

@IoJovi wrote:
@Saracene wrote:It's pretty depressing to think that Leia is going to die thinking her son gone forever. They were clearly doing "all is lost" so that it gets reversed in Episode IX, but then real life got in the way Sad
@Saracene

I’m still hoping for a recast. That may sound selfish to some but I think Carrie would have wanted Leia’s arc to have a satisfying conclusion. Leia thinking her son is lost forever when he clearly won’t be is just depressing as heck to think about...

@IoJovi

Before TLJ, I was really wondering how they were going to handle that. I thought they might either change TLJ so that she dies, or have her be injured so that her face is masked and recast her, or do a small bit of CGI so that they can have a death scene. But now that I've seen TLJ and seen how they just left the movie as-is, I think what they're going to do is time jump several years ahead and have Leia be gone of natural causes, having rebuilt the Resistance to a more or less equal footing to the First Order. They might very well open the movie with Leia's funeral, as this event would be significant - a change in Resistance leadership and as something that affects Kylo/Ben.
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Re: Leia Organa in Episode IX

Post by ReyofLightSide on Thu 21 Dec 2017, 4:46 pm

@SkyStar wrote:I wanted them meet in TLJ so bad, but I made peace that it won't happen - that moment with Kylo not shooting Leia was already something. That said they need some kind of closure. Some kind of - I am watching you moment if you know what I mean. I still love you - from both Kylo and Leia.
How to deliver it without Leia being there directly? They did something like that with dice and Han. Where it traveled trough the hands of all the Skywalkers. Perhaps Rey can give Ben something that was Leias? Something about Alderaan. Would some sort of hologram be too overdone? I don't know.
@SkyStar

I really think the plan was for them to meet for 9- Leia seeing his redemption a la Luke with Vader, except without the death part. I truly don't know how they will do this since 9 was clearly to be Leia's movie- which makes sense, since she opened ANH. Maybe she will be dying but gets to him via hologram and this will work around their "we aren't using CGI" statement.

I am always surprised when they don't pre-shoot some scenes for a "just in case" scenario where the actor may pass away.
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Re: Leia Organa in Episode IX

Post by SkyStar on Thu 21 Dec 2017, 7:01 pm

@ReyofLightSide wrote:
@SkyStar wrote:I wanted them meet in TLJ so bad, but I made peace that it won't happen - that moment with Kylo not shooting Leia was already something. That said they need some kind of closure. Some kind of - I am watching you moment if you know what I mean. I still love you - from both Kylo and Leia.
How to deliver it without Leia being there directly? They did something like that with dice and Han. Where it traveled trough the hands of all the Skywalkers. Perhaps Rey can give Ben something that was Leias? Something about Alderaan. Would some sort of hologram be too overdone? I don't know.
@SkyStar

I really think the plan was for them to meet for 9- Leia seeing his redemption a la Luke with Vader, except without the death part. I truly don't know how they will do this since 9 was clearly to be Leia's movie- which makes sense, since she opened ANH. Maybe she will be dying but gets to him via hologram and this will work around their "we aren't using CGI" statement.

I am always surprised when they don't pre-shoot some scenes for a "just in case" scenario where the actor may pass away.

I agree. With Han they can always show the connection through the Falcon  - I think Ben eventually needs to visit it (how angry did he get at the ship). But with Leia, there isn't even such things, only the R2 hologram, but that was special to Luke. Therefore another hologram - like the one she sent to Ben to temple? It's just sad that there is nothing equivalent to Falcon as a symbol for Leia. I know it's killing the past, but in Kylo's case, he kind of still gets very attached and emotional about these artifacts of his family's history. If Leia was alive there was no such need, but as she won't be I think there should be at least something.
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Re: Leia Organa in Episode IX

Post by Lamiller1390 on Thu 21 Dec 2017, 10:52 pm

@reylo1992

It is hard to address all of that with all the characters he also had to address as well. Being a director of such a large movie with THAT many characters is difficult and tbh, at this point, the franchise is less about Luke, Leia, and Han and more about Poe, Finn, Rey, and Kylo. SO the original three characters are pretty much going to get the short end of the storyline stick. All those questions you asked are very hard to answer in a movie this long with everything else going on. Most likely they will be answered in a book or comic. But that is not practical to put in a movie. I felt her reaction at the beginning with Poe showed a lot of her frustration and sadness, but she is a general and to be in that position of power means that you generally cannot let your emotions impede your work. You cannot be emotionally comprised. Stupid, but true.

@Saracene

I don't think she truly believes her son is truly gone, but in that moment after all that loss she is feeling hopeless... hell who wouldn't. We feel like all hope is lost when we forget our morning cafe, lock ourselves out of our house, forget our cell phone, and get a flat all in one day. She has lost her husband, she lost her son several years ago, now she is losing the war and all the people in the rebellion via death... on top of that she has realized that NO one is responding to their distress calls... Talk about a bad day and feeling hopeless. If that is not a time to feel hopeless than I don't know what is. That is a LOT of loss to deal with. All of those are major stressors that lead to depression, fear, hopelessness, and anxiety in everyday life. I bet Rey and her talk more afterward and come up with a plan to help Kylo because I don't think Rey has totally given up on him. She is just disappointed at his choice but when she tells Leia what has happened between them and when the words of her brother truly sink in... she will see reason. Just not in that moment, it is not reasonable to assume she should feel hope at all.

@DarthRen
He has to not only forgive his family but forgive himself too. As he keeps saying, he has to let go of the past, let it die. It is the only way to be who you were meant to be. That is a very true statement... one he is not following very well right now but in time he will. Letting go of the past means also letting go of all the emotions that go with it. Letting go of the anger, bitterness, and resentment... which is hard to do because he is so comfortable with it, but I am curious with Snoke most likely gone now, will the dark influence he had over Kylo diminish??? Snoke is the person who stoked that fire in the first place and poisoned Kylo... with Snoke in play can Kylo really let go?

SO many burning questions I have... grief and anger are very interesting emotions to study because they manifest in different ways and anger is almost always born from fear...
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Re: Leia Organa in Episode IX

Post by DarthRen on Thu 21 Dec 2017, 11:18 pm

@Lamiller1390 wrote:

@DarthRen
He has to not only forgive his family but forgive himself too. As he keeps saying, he has to let go of the past, let it die. It is the only way to be who you were meant to be. That is a very true statement... one he is not following very well right now but in time he will. Letting go of the past means also letting go of all the emotions that go with it. Letting go of the anger, bitterness, and resentment... which is hard to do because he is so comfortable with it, but I am curious with Snoke most likely gone now, will the dark influence he had over Kylo diminish??? Snoke is the person who stoked that fire in the first place and poisoned Kylo... with Snoke in play can Kylo really let go?
@Lamiller1390

It goes hand-in-hand really. Letting go of his past= letting go of his connotations to these events=being free from the hate, anger that fills his heart right now. This is what Snoke taught him, what is pushing him towards the darkness. Just the little example, while being injured by Chewie's bowcaster, bleeding he banged on his wound harder to channel the dark side. Many times during these movies youcan see Ben Solo and the light creeping out on him, he can't deny it all he wants but it is who he really in his heart is. He's almost on the verge of being masochist. Truly fascinating character to observe for many reason as to study human's behavior, personality disorder and the growing up process of a person deeply wounded by the past events.

One thing I'm not too happy about, was the lack of attention to Snoke's emotional hold on Kylo/Ben and how he got to him. Not entirely sure JJ will get to that due to overwhelming pieces he has to connect but I can hope he might adress it.


Last edited by DarthRen on Thu 21 Dec 2017, 11:31 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Leia Organa in Episode IX

Post by Lamiller1390 on Thu 21 Dec 2017, 11:27 pm

@DarthRen

Yeah I find it fascinating. I relate to Kylo so easily because frankly he and I have similar pasts and I have been in and out of therapy and struggle with PTSD and anxiety myself. So I talk from experience in some regards. Letting go of the past is very hard to do when you have been taught to hold onto it. But that is manipulation in it's prime. Being conditioned. Like Kylo to believe a certain thing even if that means denying who you really are through any means necessary. be it Patricide or Masochism.

I think a bit of the backstory is revealed in some of the novelizations, but I am curious too. I think Snoke began his work on Ben when he was very very young...

Keep in mind that these scrips are generally finished before the release of the current movie. The Last Jedi script was finished and finalized before the Force Awakens was in theaters. Likewise JJ has already turned in a copy of the script for the next movie... so as much as we theorize things are in motion long before we get our head in the game. Hahaha
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General Leia Organa in IX

Post by DeeBee on Wed 14 Feb 2018, 11:34 pm

Hi All,
I thought I’d get a thread up and running to discuss Leia in IX.
I understand this is a sensitive topic for all SW fans.. there is no getting around the sadness of losing Carrie Fisher.
She is going to be greatly missed. Leia is a character many of us grew up with and cherish dearly...

Whether Leia is seen at all in IX or not, the character of Leia will be a strong presence in IX… As Han was a strong presence in TLJ.
So there is a conversation to be had about how the makers of IX will handle Carrie’s passing, and how Leia will be presented in IX, from now till December 2019.


I’ll get the ball rolling here with a  few quotes from the General Discussion thread about it. I hope this is okay with everyone – if not let me know and I can remove your quote.

@Teo oswald wrote:
@DeeBee wrote:
…Here's an April 14th, 2017 article, along with KK video about Carrie not appearing in IX

Article: ‘Star Wars’: Carrie Fisher Won’t Be In ‘Episode IX,’ Kathleen Kennedy Says
"Carrie will not be in IX" is pretty clear.
So seems using unseen footage has been ruled out as an option. This may be old news, lol but I didn't know this had been ruled out. I only knew they had ruled out using CGI.
Do we know if recasting the character has been ruled out?
@DeeBee

I really no idea ......
For the respect of the person Leia will not be shown in the next episode, I can understand, however, the Star Wars group must understand that the character of Leia is one of the pillars of Star Wars, do not show her at all, without even a news it's crazy . unless they decide to insert in text titles what happened after TLJ....that would have been the moment of Leia Sad Sad
@Teo oswald

@rawpowah wrote:I was thinking that if Episode IX takes place over a couple of days or a week or two, then JJ could get away with simply not including Leia in the story and have her do things off-screen in that short period of time. That way, they could leave Ben and Leia's reunion for a cartoon, comic or novel (which is guaranteed to generate views/sales because of the subject matter).
@rawpowah

@ISeeAnIsland wrote:
@rawpowah wrote:I was thinking that if Episode IX takes place over a couple of days or a week or two, then JJ could get away with simply not including Leia in the story and have her do things off-screen in that short period of time. That way, they could leave Ben and Leia's reunion for a cartoon, comic or novel (which is guaranteed to generate views/sales because of the subject matter).
@rawpowah

That's a really fantastic point.  Let's say that we get a timeskip of a few weeks between TLJ and IX, and then whatever happens that causes All Heck to Break Loose (kicking off IX), and IX takes place over the course of a few days or so (like TFA and TLJ), it's entirely plausible that Leia could be away trying to rally allies in the Outer Rim or something else diplomatic. That would also allow Leia to still be a "presence" in IX and would keep the character around to finish her arc in another medium.
@ISeeAnIsland

@snufkin wrote:My dream scenario for off screen Leia would be that she's moved to that active seniors retirement community Lando is running on Cloud City.
@snufkin

I’ll get back here to reply to these fabulous comments as soon as I can.

Anyone like to share their current thinking on how they think Carrie’s passing and the fate of Leia’s character could play out in IX?
Anything you would really like to see? or hope they don’t do?
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Re: Leia Organa in Episode IX

Post by Night Huntress on Wed 14 Feb 2018, 11:43 pm

I like rawpower's idea - I love Leia's character and often b**** about how her relationship with Ben wasn't really explored...of course they wanted to save that for IX but now sadly that can't happen- but I would be very happy if we could get that in a novel after IX.
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Re: Leia Organa in Episode IX

Post by Teo oswald on Wed 14 Feb 2018, 11:56 pm

it is a blow to the heart, because they could develop the relationship between kylo and leia in episode VIII and instead, I think they had foreseen it for the episodes IX but unfortunately Leia has gone.

But if you notice it and this is a bad thing Anakin had a mother and we saw him interact with her, but he did not have a father so we never saw him interacting with him
Kylo has both a father and a mother but he interacts with his father and not with his mother ....
it's unbelievable .... it was fate
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Re: Leia Organa in Episode IX

Post by KnightsofReylo_2015 on Thu 15 Feb 2018, 12:12 am

@Teo oswald wrote:it is a blow to the heart, because they could develop the relationship between kylo and leia in episode VIII and instead, I think they had foreseen it for the episodes IX but unfortunately Leia has gone.

But if you notice it and this is a bad thing Anakin had a mother and we saw him interact with her, but he did not have a father so we never saw him interacting with him
Kylo has both a father and a mother but he interacts with his father and not with his mother ....
it's unbelievable .... it was fate
@Teo oswald

Oh man, that just makes me so sad... Crying or Very sad
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Re: Leia Organa in Episode IX

Post by Night Huntress on Thu 15 Feb 2018, 12:17 am

@Teo oswald wrote:it is a blow to the heart, because they could develop the relationship between kylo and leia in episode VIII and instead, I think they had foreseen it for the episodes IX but unfortunately Leia has gone.

@Teo oswald

Yes, sad indeed- I do get why they wanted to keep that for the last episode...but it would have been nice having little glimpses of their relationship already in TLJ. Leia hardly acknowledges his existence in VIII...I mean they had this very intense and important moment when Ben couldn't fire on her and it never comes up again. Like it never happened - a lost opportunity...they wanted to keep things ambiguous to the extreme.
We didn't know if Leia really knows it wasn't her son who fired - we didn't know if Ben knows that Leia survived. Nope

I assume they wanted Leia to play a big part in Ben's redemption arc - I think Ben's relationship with his mother was the strongest... he never hated or resented her in the way he did Luke or maybe even his father.

That's why it will be really interesting how they handle her absence in IX. I never really considered the option of her character not dying but being off-screen. But why not?
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Re: Leia Organa in Episode IX

Post by Teo oswald on Thu 15 Feb 2018, 12:36 am

in fact it is one of the many things that I do not like about this episode VIII

whatever they do will have to be consistent. I would not mind hearing only Leia's voice , it does not have to be on the screen, it's enough for me her presence Smile
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