Leia Organa in Episode IX

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Re: Leia Organa in Episode IX

Post by rawpowah on Wed 14 Feb 2018, 6:27 pm

Thank you for the thread @DeeBee. Looking forward to your replies.

So they've ruled out CGI Carrie. The only options I haven't seen ruled out are:

1. Recast

2. Kill off Leia

3. Keep her off-screen

4. Flashbacks of Young Leia

1 is pretty tricky in my opinion because so many fans associate Carrie with Leia, so recasting her could cause backlash no matter how great the actress they'd bring in is. Some might view it as disrespecting Carrie and her work as Leia. I personally wouldn't mind a recast; I didn't grow up with the OT and the only SW movie I watched in theaters was RotS, so I don't have that feeling of nostalgia about SW. That being said, I understand that I'm in the minority about this, and that for many fans Leia is a role-model and a character they have a deep connection with.

2 seems to be what most fans are expecting, and Leia's death could be used as an important event to set up the events in IX. It could be an event that might bring Ben and Rey together and also contribute to Ben's redemption. So Leia would accomplish in death what she had wanted to do in life. The downside is that there's a chance that her death might be seen as too gratuitous and maybe a bit too meta, as it's a serious issue that might hit too close too home for the cast and fans. There's also a chance that focusing too much on death might be overly grim for the movie (we barely got anything on Han, for example). There's also a chance some fans might be upset that Leia's death will be used as a plot device for Kylo's manpain, or something (actually, I can picture antis saying this lol).  

3 could work if there isn't a big time skip between movies, and with Kylo as Renperor many would be surprised if he managed to hold on to power for long after the events on Crait. It could also work if, like the two previous movies, Episode IX takes place over a short period of time (say a few days or a week or two, like I said in my previous comment). This would allow JJ to not kill off Leia, but instead justify her absence in the movie for a short time by having her do things off screen, such as gathering allies for the Resistance. Or, for all we know, Leia's defeated attitude at the end of TLJ, and possibly learning that Ben is now Supreme Leader, could spur her into retirement because she doesn't want to fight against her son anymore. Additionally, it would allow a redeemed Ben Solo to reconcile with his mother after IX, in a novel/comic/cartoon that lets the creators write the relationship between the two that they initially envisioned for IX. The downside would be that we wouldn't have much information on Ben and Leia's relationship on screen, and that whatever role she might have had in Ben's redemption would be shouldered by other characters. There's also a risk of too much "telling instead of showing" because she's not there.

4 would mean that they'd have to cast an actress to play young Leia and use her for flashbacks with a very young Ben Solo to explore the relationship between the two, as well as Snoke's influence on young Ben. It would be an effective tool and could be done easily to highlight the extent of Snoke's manipulation and contribute to Ben's redemption. This also means that current Leia wouldn't be needed, so she can remain off-screen or JJ can decide to kill her off anyway. The downside I can see to this is that the flashbacks might slow down the pacing of the story and they might be seen as awkward inserts, though JJ can find a way to introduce them like Rian managed with Luke/Ben at the jedi camp.

Can anyone think of any other options?
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Re: Leia Organa in Episode IX

Post by DeeBee on Wed 14 Feb 2018, 9:03 pm

Hi all!
Thanks for sharing your thoughts!
To be honest, no one has shared any idea that I wouldn’t personally be fine with. This is probably one area of IX where I know I am going to accept what is done whatever is done. Just because I can appreciate it is a very challenging situation for the makers and all involved who would know Carrie, and had great plans for her character in IX. To not see that play out as they (and Carrie herself) had originally planned and looked forward to, will likely be a loss in addition to the actual loss of Carrie as a friend or family member. So I will accept pretty much whatever they give me – because I trust they will treat it with care.

That said, its interesting to explore ideas for what’s possible, and everyone’s personal preferences.
I was glad to hear there will be no CGI Leia as there was in Rogue one. That looked weird!

@”Teo Oswald” – indeed I am sure the makers will be wanting to respect Carrie and the Leia character. Yes if she is so central to the story, how do they tell it without her? they will find a way...

@”rawpowah” that’s a new idea! If it is a short time frame- yes this could be possible to do and actually make sense. The thought of being able to expand on Leia and Kylo/Ben’s story in other media is very tempting indeed!
@”ISeeAnIsland” your idea of Leia being busy rallying allies in the outer rim is a great idea!

I was thinking about Leia being alive but off screen and I couldn’t come to grips with her being alive, but not being involved- but with a very short time frame it could work.
LOL I like the @”snufkin” joke about Leia’s retirement. I would love to see her end the story happy. A part of me thinks that was how IX was originally going to end – with Leia finding resolution with the reconciliation with her son… maybe a grandchild or two..

So… lots of positive ideas for how Leia could live till the end of IX, and leaving Carrie’s death out of the story. I’d be okay with this!

At the same time, there is a part of me that thinks Leia’s character needs an ending – maybe there is a positive in having Leia’s death be part of the story. It gives her character a complete arc – like Han and Luke got. Not seeing her in IX, but her still being alive could feel a little like she has been left hanging.. and.. there is a part of me that thinks if we get brief references to Leia throughout IX, every time we get one I’m going to be sad thinking oh that’s how they’ve decided to go with this huh.. and is she about to die off camera? The whole way through the movie!!!

While it will be sad if leia passes away in IX, it could honour her character to make her death central to the story - like it did with Han's death. If she dies, there would be a benefit in it being powerful and meaningful to the story..
but - watching her ship get blown up or soemthing.. I'm not sure how I'd feel about that - at least with Han Solo, we knew it was planned that his character would die and that Harrison Ford still lived.. it's a little different with Carrie isn't it.. Hm...
I’m weighing up the pros and cons here of our options.. every option seems to have them!

@”Night Huntress” - I agree it’s so sad we are not going to get the full story play out.. but I am hopeful that we can actually still have the story play out – just in a different way.. yes I tend to see it as all the Kylo/Ben Leia interaction was being saved up for IX… the way the shooting of the bridge was left hanging and whether Kylo/Ben even knows his mother is still alive is left hanging.. we the audience are left to draw our own conclusions. I think this can still be addressed in IX, I hope it is.

@”Teo Oswald” – maybe we can still have the relationship develop between Kylo and Leia, even if Carrie is no longer alive to play the character. There are ways to tell a story without the actor.. or to bring resolution to a relationship when a character has passed away, that can still be meaningful.. and hopefully satisfying. maybe not as satisfying, but still satisfying.
I’m hoping the savvy forum members who are super clever literary types can give us some ideas!
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Re: Leia Organa in Episode IX

Post by californiagirl on Wed 14 Feb 2018, 9:13 pm

I still have this strange belief that she be alive in the movie longer than many people expect. There won't be a satisfying resolution to her arc if she dies before having some kind of contact with Ben. It will be kind of awkward regardless of what path they choose, but it would be better if LF went the more difficult route that required more creativity, rather than going what I think is kind of the lazier, more timid way were she dies before IX or in the very beginning of the film.

Leia was supposed to have a major role, and I think they can manage to make it work even without Carrie actually on screen. I do think even before Carrie's passing, her character was not going to make it out of IX alive. Han died in TFA, Luke in TLJ. It would be odd if Leia was the only survivor, but she deserves an arc and a dramatic, emotional end just like the rest of the OT.
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Re: Leia Organa in Episode IX

Post by DeeBee on Wed 14 Feb 2018, 9:45 pm

@rawpowah wrote:Thank you for the thread @DeeBee. Looking forward to your replies.

So they've ruled out CGI Carrie. The only options I haven't seen ruled out are:
1. Recast
2. Kill off Leia
3. Keep her off-screen
4. Flashbacks of Young Leia

1 is pretty tricky in my opinion because so many fans associate Carrie with Leia, so recasting her could cause backlash no matter how great the actress they'd bring in is. Some might view it as disrespecting Carrie and her work as Leia. I personally wouldn't mind a recast; I didn't grow up with the OT and the only SW movie I watched in theaters was RotS, so I don't have that feeling of nostalgia about SW. That being said, I understand that I'm in the minority about this, and that for many fans Leia is a role-model and a character they have a deep connection with.

Whooo @”rawpowah” comes to the party! I love a list!  Smile
Having another actor play the role has been ruled out which is a great relief to me, I think it wouldn't work - based on the rogue one CGI experience.
I do wonder though if it could be possible for an actor to play Leia’s voice delivering dialogue- If Leia is portrayed only as a voice.  I would be fine with this if it is done well, and it could be a way to bring a satisfying end to the story. Maybe more satisfying in some ways than Leia just being off screen. I think this could still be an option and would be better accepted that seeing different person portray Leia.

@rawpowah wrote:  2 seems to be what most fans are expecting, and Leia's death could be used as an important event to set up the events in IX. It could be an event that might bring Ben and Rey together and also contribute to Ben's redemption. So Leia would accomplish in death what she had wanted to do in life. The downside is that there's a chance that her death might be seen as too gratuitous and maybe a bit too meta, as it's a serious issue that might hit too close too home for the cast and fans. There's also a chance that focusing too much on death might be overly grim for the movie (we barely got anything on Han, for example). There's also a chance some fans might be upset that Leia's death will be used as a plot device for Kylo's manpain, or something (actually, I can picture antis saying this lol).  
yeah I think this is expected.. but if they do go this way - how this could be portrayed could vary widely.. As you well describe, her death could be instrumental in Kylo/Ben finding his way out of the darkness.. that in itself would be a great tribute to Leia's character.
Gratuitous and meta indeed - it would need to be done with great care and sensitivity!

@rawpowah wrote: 3 could work if there isn't a big time skip between movies, and with Kylo as Renperor many would be surprised if he managed to hold on to power for long after the events on Crait. It could also work if, like the two previous movies, Episode IX takes place over a short period of time (say a few days or a week or two, like I said in my previous comment). This would allow JJ to not kill off Leia, but instead justify her absence in the movie for a short time by having her do things off screen, such as gathering allies for the Resistance. Or, for all we know, Leia's defeated attitude at the end of TLJ, and possibly learning that Ben is now Supreme Leader, could spur her into retirement because she doesn't want to fight against her son anymore. Additionally, it would allow a redeemed Ben Solo to reconcile with his mother after IX, in a novel/comic/cartoon that lets the creators write the relationship between the two that they initially envisioned for IX. The downside would be that we wouldn't have much information on Ben and Leia's relationship on screen, and that whatever role she might have had in Ben's redemption would be shouldered by other characters. There's also a risk of too much "telling instead of showing" because she's not there.  

this is a new concept for me.. I'm enjoying reading of this idea and playing around with it.. as I mentioned in the previous comment - I do wonder if this could leave Leia's character undefined and open ended in a way that may not be satisfying though.. I don't know.

@rawpowah wrote: 4 would mean that they'd have to cast an actress to play young Leia and use her for flashbacks with a very young Ben Solo to explore the relationship between the two, as well as Snoke's influence on young Ben. It would be an effective tool and could be done easily to highlight the extent of Snoke's manipulation and contribute to Ben's redemption. This also means that current Leia wouldn't be needed, so she can remain off-screen or JJ can decide to kill her off anyway. The downside I can see to this is that the flashbacks might slow down the pacing of the story and they might be seen as awkward inserts, though JJ can find a way to introduce them like Rian managed with Luke/Ben at the jedi camp.  

I think flashbacks are a great idea, and that they are possible without having to recast Leia - it would depend on how they are shot. We could get flashbacks to Ben being cuddled with Leia back to camera for example..

@rawpowah wrote: Can anyone think of any other options?
@rawpowah

well since you asked  Razz
I'll share some of my less organised thoughts..
I remember commenting on  here a while ago about a fan fic I read where Leia had passed away, and Ben and Rey find Leia's diary on Naboo I think it was. Together they read Leia's entries from the time she was pregnant with Ben, and she told the story of what was happening... the darkness and forboding she sensed but couldn't comprehend, her love and hopes for her child, and her helplessness in trying to help her child as he grew older.
It showed me that there are ways to tell a story, without the actor being present that can still be powerful and moving.. so it gave me hope that I will still get to see the story of Kylo/Ben and Leia healing their relationship in some way in IX.

What if Leia has recorded a message for Kylo/Ben on R2D2, because she foresaw her time was coming to an end? [Leia and R2 are both on the MF at the end of TLJ]
Or, maybe a message she recorded years ago because she missed her son, loved him and was worried about him?
It could be a voice message.. or it could be like the one she did for Obi-Wan - so grainy and small I think you could get away with creating that with CGI and it could work fine- even for us who grew up with Leia and might be opposed to CGI..  I even think the denials that there will be no CGI Leia would not cover a CGI Leia hologram message. it's different.

There's also the plot device of the diary - as the fan fic wonderfully used (and sorry no idea which one it was now eek!).

Another idea could be Leia writing Kylo/Ben a letter - maybe after the escape from Crait, but before the start of IX. She could tell him she knows he didn't shoot at her ship... and that no one is every truly gone... there are so many things that could be conveyed in a letter - depending on when it was written. And having a Leia voice narrate it could be very powerful. [I read this is how the death of Phillip Seymour Hoffman was handled when he died mid filming of Hunger games - never seen it..but I'll take their word for it]
If the letter said 'Son, I know you and Rey are destined to be together' - I will be an absolute puddle in that theatre!! I will soak up that sentimentality like there is no tomorrow!!

I think that Kylo/Ben can resolve his past with his mother and find healing, even if he can't have a conversation with her. Which of course I would prefer but it's maybe not possible. There are people in our own lives who, though they are no longer present, we need to forgive them and make peace with that in order to heal. Kylo/Ben can forgive Leia for the mistakes she made, for her flaws, and he can come to better understand that she did indeed love him, always had and always would - even if he can't actually see her in IX.
For Leia's character, we could take comfort in what she conveys in her letter/message/diary - that she knew he hadn't fired on her, and she died still with hope that her son would come back and still full of love for him. That would I think be enough.

Being star wars, we also have the option of Kylo/Ben experiencing dreams or visions which include Leia in some form - blurry, faded, and the sound of her voice.

I don't forsee a Leia force ghost - I don't even know how Anakin became one - Jedi did not automatically become force ghosts - Qui Gon Jinn learned the trick, then taught yoda, who then taught it to Obi-wan.. then suddenly Anakin knew the trick to. I can assume Obi-Wan or Obi-Wan showed the trick to luke at some point. lol. Tangent. sorry - so for me FG Leis is a stretch.

other ideas.. we could get Leia off somewhere - maybe rallying allies as ISeeAnIsland suggested - she could be communicating via comlink with no visual - and boom. the connection is lost.. and Rey and Kylo/Ben feel her passing in the force. But - we don't have to see the boom. With this scenario, you could even have leia knowing she is saying her final words.. and she could get to say them to Kylo/Ben or record them in some way.. whoa.. I better bring the tissues to IX!! Or - too much maybe? thoughts?

If Leia is going to die I want it to be in the time between VIII and IX, or early in the film - so I'm not constantly worried if she is about to die!

Thoughts everyone?
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Re: Leia Organa in Episode IX

Post by nickandnora on Wed 14 Feb 2018, 10:46 pm

I'm actually the biggest fan of the straightforward "she dies at the very beginning of IX or in between films" option. I could even have seen that as a potential narrative, in theory, even if Carrie Fisher hadn't died (at the same time I don't think they would have gypped Carrie like that, but I just mean I could see the idea being there as one possibility, just not in Colin Trevorrow's head).

As has been suggested above, perhaps Leia, sensing her own imminent death, leaves a message for Ben for Rey to find (and I'm actually a huge fan of the handwritten option, just because of the whole Ben Solo calligraphy thing) and that becomes kind of a catalyst, plot point, mystery, AND resolution at the same time. Depending on what's in the message and how it's revealed and when in the film, it could be pretty powerful.

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Re: Leia Organa in Episode IX

Post by DeeBee on Wed 14 Feb 2018, 11:14 pm

@nickandnora wrote:I'm actually the biggest fan of the straightforward "she dies at the very beginning of IX or in between films" option. I could even have seen that as a potential narrative, in theory, even if Carrie Fisher hadn't died (at the same time I don't think they would have gypped Carrie like that, but I just mean I could see the idea being there as one possibility, just not in Colin Trevorrow's head).

As has been suggested above, perhaps Leia, sensing her own imminent death, leaves a message for Ben for Rey to find (and I'm actually a huge fan of the handwritten option, just because of the whole Ben Solo calligraphy thing) and that becomes kind of a catalyst, plot point, mystery, AND resolution at the same time. Depending on what's in the message and how it's revealed and when in the film, it could be pretty powerful.
@nickandnora

nickandnora this is so lovely! And does handle the situation with sensitivity!

I like Leia already being dead and finding out in the opening crawl - as then we don't have to wonder throughout the movie and can make the actual death of the character less a main focus, and make the healing of the relationship or the legacy of the relationship a bigger focus..
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Re: Leia Organa in Episode IX

Post by Teo oswald on Thu 15 Feb 2018, 2:57 am

I like Leia already being dead and finding out in the opening crawl - as then we don't have to wonder throughout the movie and can make the actual death of the character less a main focus, and make the healing of the relationship or the legacy of the relationship a bigger focus..

that's what I thought, so fans do not have to question where Leia is or what she's doing because Leia like it or not is one of the pillars of Star Wars, not to make her appear is a crime. So it is best to explain from the beginning what happened.
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Re: Leia Organa in Episode IX

Post by rawpowah on Thu 15 Feb 2018, 5:02 am

@DeeBee I saw The Hunger Games movies and that's exactly how they handled PSH's death. One of the characters read out the letter. It was very classy. And at one point they used stock footage of him and inserted it into a parade scene, since the character survived at the end of the movies/books.

Right now I think they'll just reveal Leia died in the opening crawl. I can picture the first sentence being something like "General Leia has died." It's an impacting sentence like "Luke Skywalker has vanished" in TFA. And then they'll add something about the Resistance continuing her work to fight the FO led by Kylo Ren, followed by a paragraph of whatever Kylo Ren is up to, and a final one setting up the opening scene for IX.
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Re: Leia Organa in Episode IX

Post by nickandnora on Thu 15 Feb 2018, 8:37 am

@DeeBee wrote:
@nickandnora wrote:I'm actually the biggest fan of the straightforward "she dies at the very beginning of IX or in between films" option. I could even have seen that as a potential narrative, in theory, even if Carrie Fisher hadn't died (at the same time I don't think they would have gypped Carrie like that, but I just mean I could see the idea being there as one possibility, just not in Colin Trevorrow's head).

As has been suggested above, perhaps Leia, sensing her own imminent death, leaves a message for Ben for Rey to find (and I'm actually a huge fan of the handwritten option, just because of the whole Ben Solo calligraphy thing) and that becomes kind of a catalyst, plot point, mystery, AND resolution at the same time. Depending on what's in the message and how it's revealed and when in the film, it could be pretty powerful.
@nickandnora

nickandnora this is so lovely! And does handle the situation with sensitivity!

I like Leia already being dead and finding out in the opening crawl - as then we don't have to wonder throughout the movie and can make the actual death of the character less a main focus, and make the healing of the relationship or the legacy of the relationship a bigger focus..
@DeeBee

Thanks! I agree with you. Smile

If I could compare it to something (and this idea just came to me), it would basically be like Citizen Kane where the film starts off with Kane's death and "Rosebud" and the rest of the film is the search for what that means. Except in Leia's case it would be "what's the final message she had for her son?" but it's not actually revealed until some crucial moment in Act III.

I myself am a fan of super simple, as simple as they can get it. Like, if they could condense the message into a single word (like "Rosebud"... obviously not that word, but that type of idea, lol) that's an absolute punch in the gut, I'm all for it.

Right now I think they'll just reveal Leia died in the opening crawl. I can picture the first sentence being something like "General Leia has died." It's an impacting sentence like "Luke Skywalker has vanished" in TFA. And then they'll add something about the Resistance continuing her work to fight the FO led by Kylo Ren, followed by a paragraph of whatever Kylo Ren is up to, and a final one setting up the opening scene for IX.
Oh yeah, I love that. It's the simplicity thing that I mentioned above. When I saw "Luke Skywalker has vanished" in the theater, I seriously almost stood up and screamed because in that moment I thought it was the best, most impactful sentence I had ever read in my life, lol. It clued me into the fact that this ST was going to be gooood.


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Re: Leia Organa in Episode IX

Post by Irina de France on Thu 15 Feb 2018, 12:50 pm

Merged both "General Leia Organa in IX" and "Leia and Kylo (truly gone?)" together, considering the topic is similar.

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Re: Leia Organa in Episode IX

Post by BB-Rey on Fri 16 Feb 2018, 10:50 pm

It is so hard and emotional for me to even think about how they're going to reconcile and tell Leia's story moving forward and how they address her character in Episode IX. One idea that I would like in these less than ideal circumstances is that we have a cartoon series set between the events of Episodes VIII-IX like that of The Clone Wars between Episodes II-III. This way you can have a moment with Ben and Leia. You can have Leia mentoring Rey. (Even a moment of Leia with Anakin would be so nice as she's forgiving him) Then you can begin Episode IX with some sort of tragedy that fractures the bonds that they're sharing with each other and setting into motion Rey showing Ben the love his mother always had for him. Another would be to have her survire another attack and be mentioned to setting up the New Republic at the end of the movie and appearing to Ben and Rey in some way. Both mirroring Padme in TPM and Anakin in ROTJ. I really hope one way or another they find a way to make this work and give Leia the closure she deserves. It's one of my biggest optimistic hopes for this trilogy. Help us Lucasfilm, you're our only hope!


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Re: Leia Organa in Episode IX

Post by Dar-ren19 on Sat 17 Feb 2018, 2:52 am

@rawpowah wrote:Thank you for the thread @DeeBee. Looking forward to your replies.

So they've ruled out CGI Carrie. The only options I haven't seen ruled out are:

1. Recast

2. Kill off Leia

3. Keep her off-screen

4. Flashbacks of Young Leia

1 is pretty tricky in my opinion because so many fans associate Carrie with Leia, so recasting her could cause backlash no matter how great the actress they'd bring in is. Some might view it as disrespecting Carrie and her work as Leia. I personally wouldn't mind a recast; I didn't grow up with the OT and the only SW movie I watched in theaters was RotS, so I don't have that feeling of nostalgia about SW. That being said, I understand that I'm in the minority about this, and that for many fans Leia is a role-model and a character they have a deep connection with.

2 seems to be what most fans are expecting, and Leia's death could be used as an important event to set up the events in IX. It could be an event that might bring Ben and Rey together and also contribute to Ben's redemption. So Leia would accomplish in death what she had wanted to do in life. The downside is that there's a chance that her death might be seen as too gratuitous and maybe a bit too meta, as it's a serious issue that might hit too close too home for the cast and fans. There's also a chance that focusing too much on death might be overly grim for the movie (we barely got anything on Han, for example). There's also a chance some fans might be upset that Leia's death will be used as a plot device for Kylo's manpain, or something (actually, I can picture antis saying this lol).  

3 could work if there isn't a big time skip between movies, and with Kylo as Renperor many would be surprised if he managed to hold on to power for long after the events on Crait. It could also work if, like the two previous movies, Episode IX takes place over a short period of time (say a few days or a week or two, like I said in my previous comment). This would allow JJ to not kill off Leia, but instead justify her absence in the movie for a short time by having her do things off screen, such as gathering allies for the Resistance. Or, for all we know, Leia's defeated attitude at the end of TLJ, and possibly learning that Ben is now Supreme Leader, could spur her into retirement because she doesn't want to fight against her son anymore. Additionally, it would allow a redeemed Ben Solo to reconcile with his mother after IX, in a novel/comic/cartoon that lets the creators write the relationship between the two that they initially envisioned for IX. The downside would be that we wouldn't have much information on Ben and Leia's relationship on screen, and that whatever role she might have had in Ben's redemption would be shouldered by other characters. There's also a risk of too much "telling instead of showing" because she's not there.

4 would mean that they'd have to cast an actress to play young Leia and use her for flashbacks with a very young Ben Solo to explore the relationship between the two, as well as Snoke's influence on young Ben. It would be an effective tool and could be done easily to highlight the extent of Snoke's manipulation and contribute to Ben's redemption. This also means that current Leia wouldn't be needed, so she can remain off-screen or JJ can decide to kill her off anyway. The downside I can see to this is that the flashbacks might slow down the pacing of the story and they might be seen as awkward inserts, though JJ can find a way to introduce them like Rian managed with Luke/Ben at the jedi camp.

Can anyone think of any other options?

Hi @rawpowah - I like your list. I've been thinking of one other option. What about (5) Leia as Force Ghost (she's strong in the force even though she isn't a Jedi, right?)? That way, they can either use scenes from the OT (young Leia?) or anything they have from the cutting room floor so to speak, OR they can use CGI, right? I think they might be able to write Leia FG interaction with either Rey or Ben. Personally, I'd love to see FG Leia interacting with her son.
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Re: Leia Organa in Episode IX

Post by rawpowah on Sat 17 Feb 2018, 5:18 am

@Dar-ren19 Well, they ruled out CGI, so the force ghost would have to be of an actress playing young Leia if they want Ben to interact with her. Unless they just need a shot of force ghost Leia looking at Ben from a distance (like the ghosts in RotJ), in which case they can just reuse stock footage they have of Carrie. In my opinion, at least.
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Re: Leia Organa in Episode IX

Post by SoloSideCousin on Sat 17 Feb 2018, 3:58 pm

@rawpowah wrote:@Dar-ren19 Well, they ruled out CGI, so the force ghost would have to be of an actress playing young Leia if they want Ben to interact with her. Unless they just need a shot of force ghost Leia looking at Ben from a distance (like the ghosts in RotJ), in which case they can just reuse stock footage they have of Carrie. In my opinion, at least.
@rawpowah

I am honestly still hoping for a recast. They never said Leia wouldn't be in Episode IX, only Carrie Fisher. If they did recast, I do think that they would wait until the last minute to announce it.
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Re: Leia Organa in Episode IX

Post by IoJovi on Sat 17 Feb 2018, 4:04 pm

@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@rawpowah wrote:@Dar-ren19 Well, they ruled out CGI, so the force ghost would have to be of an actress playing young Leia if they want Ben to interact with her. Unless they just need a shot of force ghost Leia looking at Ben from a distance (like the ghosts in RotJ), in which case they can just reuse stock footage they have of Carrie. In my opinion, at least.
@rawpowah

I am honestly still hoping for a recast. They never said Leia wouldn't be in Episode IX,  only Carrie Fisher. If they did recast, I do think that they would wait until the last minute to announce it.
@SoloSideCousin

Same.  It’s interesting to me that while it’s been stated that Carrie Fisher will not be appearing in IX, and that no CGI will be used, no one has come out and said after all this time that a recast isn’t happening.  Not one word debunking that.  I’m of the mind that if a recast were on the table, they would have said it by now.  It also explains why the story for TLJ was left completely in tact, when they would have had a years time to make adjustments if they were to write Leia out completely.

I do know that the IX script has now been rewritten several times since Carries passing, which gives me pause that Leia might not appear at all and they may indeed have written her out.  However this also tells me they have had a very hard time nailing down a story without her in it, with or without Colin’s firing.  

If they ARE recasting, I bet it’ll be announced sometime next year, closer to the film’s release.
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Re: Leia Organa in Episode IX

Post by Dar-ren19 on Sat 17 Feb 2018, 4:49 pm

Ok so for you longtime fans, how would a recast feel? Are you okay with it as opposed to CGI or perhaps no Leia at all?
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Re: Leia Organa in Episode IX

Post by Let The Past Die on Sat 17 Feb 2018, 5:04 pm

With an idea taken from further up the thread of Leia penning a letter to Kylo. I can picture a scene (perhaps a flashback before her death) where we see the back of Leia she has quite a distinctive profile. Also we could see her hands writing the letter, the rings she wore on her hands were again distinctive.

I like the idea that perhaps she knew she was unwell, maybe as a consequence of being jettisoned into space, thus writing a heartfelt letter to him. Perhaps bequeathing him his inheritance, as technically he would be the beneficiary of any inheritance that Leia would leave. I'm not sure who actually knows other than Rey, Chewie and maybe Finn know that Kylo Ren is Ben Solo.

However the writers resolve the issue of Leia in IX, it really can't be easy. They know where they want the story to end, Leia would have been a major part of that, and after her words to Luke that her son is gone, in my mind Leia's story from a really low starting point regarding her son, would have finished in one of mother forgiving son. We already as an audience through Rey in TLJ have begun to forgive him, but as an audience to see Leia forgive her son, through an act of selflessness on Kylo's part, then we (and I mean the GA, as we are already in Kylo's corner) will accept it to.

Now they have to deal with how to incorporate Leia sensitively, but also resolve the issue of Kylo's redemption that is meaningful. They must have had so many brain storming sessions on how to deal with it.


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Re: Leia Organa in Episode IX

Post by DeeBee on Sat 17 Feb 2018, 6:06 pm

Hi Everyone, I finally get back to this thread!
I think there are so many things to weigh up here, and I understand for some people talking about this is not comfortable. There was a time when I didn’t want to think about it either. I’m now at the point where I am finding thinking about it and hearing/exploring ideas to be helpful and interesting.. but just wanted to share that I know not everyone will see it this way – and I understand this is a sensitive topic.

I'll put quotes in spoiler boxes.. to reduce the size of this reply! Hope that's okay..
Quote from californiagirl:

@californiagirl wrote:I still have this strange belief that she be alive in the movie longer than many people expect. There won't be a satisfying resolution to her arc if she dies before having some kind of contact with Ben. It will be kind of awkward regardless of what path they choose, but it would be better if LF went the more difficult route that required more creativity, rather than going what I think is kind of the lazier, more timid way were she dies before IX or in the very beginning of the film.

Leia was supposed to have a major role, and I think they can manage to make it work even without Carrie actually on screen. I do think even before Carrie's passing, her character was not going to make it out of IX alive. Han died in TFA, Luke in TLJ. It would be odd if Leia was the only survivor, but she deserves an arc and a dramatic, emotional end just like the rest of the OT.
@californiagirl
Great to her your thoughts! Yeah it is awkward there is no escaping that.
I also think Leia deserves an arc and a satisfying end..
I am confident the makers will aim for that – I’m just not sure how they will do it. At the moment, having Leia spend IX in exile and then alluding to Kylo/Ben visiting her at the end would feel awkward to me.
Because of what we know of Leia’s character, but also because Kylo/Ben and Leia’s story is about how Leia was not there for Ben growing up and how she made mistakes and contributed to the circumstances of his downfall.. So to me Leia not being present or just staying out of the story would be a continuation of this sense from Kylo/Ben that he was abandoned.
To overcome this – they would need to justify why she is not there, and they would still need to have Kylo/Ben learn more about Leia’s perspective/actions so he can get to a place where he wants to reconcile- which could be done using letters/diaries/holos/dreams.
This is all possible, but feels complicated to me. I’d be wondering the whole movie if Leia is going to die. Which equals unease.. and a less than enjoyable experience of the movie.

quote from DeeBee and nickandnora:

@DeeBee wrote:
@nickandnora wrote:I'm actually the biggest fan of the straightforward "she dies at the very beginning of IX or in between films" option. I could even have seen that as a potential narrative, in theory, even if Carrie Fisher hadn't died (at the same time I don't think they would have gypped Carrie like that, but I just mean I could see the idea being there as one possibility, just not in Colin Trevorrow's head).

As has been suggested above, perhaps Leia, sensing her own imminent death, leaves a message for Ben for Rey to find (and I'm actually a huge fan of the handwritten option, just because of the whole Ben Solo calligraphy thing) and that becomes kind of a catalyst, plot point, mystery, AND resolution at the same time. Depending on what's in the message and how it's revealed and when in the film, it could be pretty powerful.

nickandnora this is so lovely! And does handle the situation with sensitivity!

I like Leia already being dead and finding out in the opening crawl - as then we don't have to wonder throughout the movie and can make the actual death of the character less a main focus, and make the healing of the relationship or the legacy of the relationship a bigger focus..
@nickandnora
Lol yep I’m quoting myself.. I sent off this comment quickly the other day, life got busy and now I’m coming back to it. I think I accidentally summed up for myself what I hope for with Leia in IX.
I want the focus to be on healing the relationship, and not the actual death. But I don’t want to spend the movie wondering and worrying what’s going to happen to Leia. Straight-forward upfront is for me the most comfortable way to approach it.

Also, nickandnora – I love your idea with the handwritten letter – that would be so moving!!!

I was reading an article the other day about how Philip Seymour Hoffman’s death was handled in the hunger games the other day – and the article was saying that with the rise of franchise films being filmed over years the death of a major character could be something that will be more likely to happen.
Here is the link.
Not sure if it will work.. but it’s called ‘Discretion, not CGI: How Philip Seymour Hoffman was kept in the Hunger Games’
The article also talks about how Paul Walker’s death was handled mid filming in Fast & Furious 7.
Here is a few snippets from the article:
Benjamin Lee, November 2017 wrote: It has become a horribly familiar feeling: watching a film starring an actor who died during production, and waiting for the moment when their absence is felt….
… Walker and Hoffman are by no means the first actors to die during production – Marilyn Monroe, Oliver Reed, Bruce Lee and John Candy all passed away mid-shoot – yet new technology and the rise in franchise films, often shot back-to-back, have led to new questions being asked about how to deal with losses of actors in the future…
… “As more and more blockbusters are made as part of mega-franchises, this seems like it will inevitably happen more and more,” says Rich (Vanity Fair Hollywood editor). “The Philip Seymour Hoffman model – dealing with his absence without making a huge deal of it – seems like the best way to address it.”
Out of respect for the article’s author (Lee, 2015) I won’t share anymore quotes and I’ll keep it to that.. visit the article if you'd like to read more..

@rawpowah - oh good! I’m glad to hear that how PSH’s death was handled felt classy!
Good point. Yes it is a powerful opening to the crawl! Leia having passed away could feed into the whole Kylo starts IX depressed that has recently been floated as an idea around here.. somewhere.. lol.
Leia's death could also spur the galaxy on to stand up for themselves - Leia is not around anymore to fight the fight.. at the end of TLJ, it seemed her allies had left her to fight the fight on her own. They now need to join the fight - or there is no fight!

@nickandnora – wow great reference to Citizen Kane!!! And how the death sets up the events of the movie from there onwards. It’s going to be interesting to see if they portray Leia as having died, if they will incorporate that more heavily into the story overall.. we’ll see.  

@BB-Rey - there are real upsides to having Leia’s story expand in other media I can see the appeal of this! At the same time, I kind of want Leia’s story arc (and moment between Ben and Leia) to be complete in the main event – the skywalker saga movies. So I’d like to see her story arc come to an end in the movie, but wouldn’t be against previous events being explored in the wider SW universe..
I too am trusting LF to find a way to bring closure to Leia’s character and her story. I believe they know this is very important, and they will be putting so much care and sensitivity into this – they will want to honour Carrie, and the Leia character for sure!

@Dar-ren19 - I think I said something earlier about Force Ghost Leia, and for me I don’t see the logic of it.. but then I didn’t see the logic of Anakin being able to become a force ghost so there is precedent! haaa
Yes I think FG Leia is one option among many… it’s at least possible.. where as with Han and his not being a force user it is I think impossible.
A small holographic message would be easier to pull off than a life size FG Leia.. I think.. but that’s just opinion..  When KK said they won’t do CGI Leia, and we won’t be seeing her in IX – lifesize, FG Leia seems too unlikely to fit with this.. whereas small hologram…. Maybe?

IoJovi, SoloSideCousin, rawpowah quote:

@IoJovi wrote:
@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@rawpowah wrote:@Dar-ren19 Well, they ruled out CGI, so the force ghost would have to be of an actress playing young Leia if they want Ben to interact with her. Unless they just need a shot of force ghost Leia looking at Ben from a distance (like the ghosts in RotJ), in which case they can just reuse stock footage they have of Carrie. In my opinion, at least.
@rawpowah

I am honestly still hoping for a recast. They never said Leia wouldn't be in Episode IX,  only Carrie Fisher. If they did recast, I do think that they would wait until the last minute to announce it.
@SoloSideCousin

Same.  It’s interesting to me that while it’s been stated that Carrie Fisher will not be appearing in IX, and that no CGI will be used, no one has come out and said after all this time that a recast isn’t happening.  Not one word debunking that.  I’m of the mind that if a recast were on the table, they would have said it by now.  It also explains why the story for TLJ was left completely in tact, when they would have had a years time to make adjustments if they were to write Leia out completely.

I do know that the IX script has now been rewritten several times since Carries passing, which gives me pause that Leia might not appear at all and they may indeed have written her out.  However this also tells me they have had a very hard time nailing down a story without her in it, with or without Colin’s firing.  

If they ARE recasting, I bet it’ll be announced sometime next year, closer to the film’s release.

@rawpowah - young Leia without actually getting a good look at her could work for a dream, or a memory of Ben's childhood.. I could see that!

@SoloSideCousin & @Iojovi – interesting thoughts! You’ve encouraged me to think more and consider the possibility of Leia’s character being recast! It’s good to see a different perspective – there are fans out there who would be okay with her character being recast.
Yes it is true, no one has said Leia as a character will not be seen in IX. KK said “Carrie will not be in IX” – I guess the devil is in the detail.. and interpreting what this means! In the context of that wider interview with KK I shared earlier – she did correct statements from Carrie’s family about unused footage being used.
When the interviewer asked will there be unused footage used, KK answered Carrie’s family was “confused. Because we finished everything in 8, and Carrie is absolutely phenomenal in that movie, and we’re so happy that we were able to complete filming in the summer. Unfortunately Carrie passed away, so by the time we were well under way with episode IX in our thoughts, we had not written the script yet, but we’ve regrouped, we’ve started over again in January (2017), so sadly: Carrie will not be in IX”
KK was very firm and clear here I think – this rules out use of unused footage.
I agree Iojovi – the IX script having been rewritten several times, combined with KK’s statements above lead me to think Leia won’t appear at all and that they will tell her story – just in another way.

@Dar-ren19, great question!! - I guess I’d consider myself a long time fan – having watched from the OT. Personally, I’m uncomfortable with Carrie being recast – we’ve seen Leia across 5 movies now, and this is the final one – I would prefer they handled her story in another way than recast.. but I completely get that others will not see this the same way.
I’d be okay with CGI being used for a small holographic image or something -  where we can’t see her so well but nothing life sized or realistic..
There are many things they could do to tell the story still – that don’t involve a recast or CGI Leia and I would prefer any of those things be utilised.. I will be prepared to love the movie regardless though.. even if they do recast her!
Did you see the link to the KK interview? Did you watch it? It seemed to me CGI Leia is not on the table.
I'd be comfortable with a recast if it is for the purposes of someone portraying Leia's voice, or her character without showing her face (like showing her from behind in a dream hugging Kylo/Ben for example).

Let The Past Die quote:

@Let The Past Die wrote:With an idea taken from further up the thread of Leia penning a letter to Kylo. I can picture a scene (perhaps a flashback before her death) where we see the back of Leia she has quite a distinctive profile. Also we could see her hands writing the letter,  the rings she wore on her hands were again distinctive.

I like the idea that perhaps she knew she was unwell, maybe as a consequence of being jettisoned into space, thus writing a heartfelt letter to him. Perhaps bequeathing him his inheritance, as technically he would be the beneficiary of any inheritance that Leia would leave. I'm  not sure who actually knows other than Rey, Chewie and maybe Finn know that Kylo Ren is Ben Solo.

However the writers resolve the issue of Leia in IX, it really can't be easy. They know where they want the story to end, Leia would have been a major part of that, and after her words to Luke that her son is gone, in my mind Leia's story from a really low starting point regarding her son, would have finished in one of mother forgiving son. We already as an audience through Rey in TLJ have  begun to forgive him, but as an audience to see Leia forgive her son, through an act of  selflessness on Kylo's part, then we (and I mean the GA, as we are already in Kylo's corner) will accept it to.

Now they have to deal with how to incorporate Leia sensitively, but also resolve the issue of Kylo's redemption that is meaningful. They must have had so many brain storming sessions on how to deal with it.
@  Let The Past Die  -  Whooo chills Let the Past Die! I basically feel you’ve said exactly what I’m thinking!! Love your comments!!! [rofl love the rollercoaster! Haaaa]
Leia’s hands writing the letter with her distinctive space jewellery? - I love it!!!! What a wonderful way to tie things together.

At the end of TLJ, Leia had her moment of doubt that her son could return – it seemed to me it was her moment of giving up on everything really, because she was thinking the resistance was about to end and they were all going to die.. She had given up not just hope in her son, but all hope. To me this is important to understand her in that moment.. (she had a moment of human doubt because she is very human..)

However, we see Luke return we even have Luke remind Leia that no one is truly gone. By the end of TLJ - Hope is restored.. and Leia is even telling Rey that they have everything they need.
Leia went from having nothing – to having everything. And I can see how LF think this was enough of a way to bring Leia’s story to an ending here.
Yes a letter from Leia makes sense if at the end of TLJ, she is physically frail, knows she won’t live much longer and wants to communicate to her son what she needs to before the chance to get it down is lost.. this will be her contribution to Kylo/Ben’s redemption!!! And it could be very powerful indeed.

Love the idea of Leia writing about her estate too. Addressing Kylo/Ben’s inheritance is a wonderful way of showing that Leia thought he would be redeemed, and had not truly given up hope– and it is a way to link her in with Kylo/Ben and Rey having a future life together etc….
Ohhh if we get this I am going to be sobering like an idiot!!

What if Leia had a vision at one point of Kylo/Ben and Rey reading over the Jedi texts together in harmony - so she hides her handwritten letter to her son in those books - then, at some point in the movie, together they discover them.. and ohhh let the healing and the tears truly flow! I love you
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Re: Leia Organa in Episode IX

Post by IoJovi on Sat 17 Feb 2018, 6:17 pm

@Dar-ren19 wrote:Ok so for you longtime fans, how would a recast feel? Are you okay with it as opposed to CGI or perhaps no Leia at all?
@Dar-ren19

I personally would love to see a recast. I understand that there is no perfect option on this case, out of the three on the table (write her out completely, CGI or recast) and each has their drawbacks. A recast though is going to bring Leia’s story to full completion with the fewest compromises to be made. I believe too this is what Carrie, as the custodian of the character, would want herself.

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Re: Leia Organa in Episode IX

Post by SoloSideCousin on Sat 17 Feb 2018, 6:25 pm

@IoJovi wrote:
@Dar-ren19 wrote:Ok so for you longtime fans, how would a recast feel? Are you okay with it as opposed to CGI or perhaps no Leia at all?
@Dar-ren19

I personally would love to see a recast. I understand that there is no perfect option on this case, out of the three on the table (write her out completely, CGI or recast) and each has their drawbacks. A recast though is going to bring Leia’s story to full completion with the fewest compromises to be made. I believe too this is what Carrie, as the custodian of the character, would want herself.

@IoJovi

I completely agree. And there really are actresses that could pull it off, like Meryl Streep (she's taller, but she's played Carrie before) or Holly Hunter (petite and a spitfire). Carrie was a writer and the custodian of Leia. She would want the character to fulfill her arc.
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Re: Leia Organa in Episode IX

Post by rey09 on Sat 17 Feb 2018, 6:34 pm

@Dar-ren19 wrote:Ok so for you longtime fans, how would a recast feel? Are you okay with it as opposed to CGI or perhaps no Leia at all?
@Dar-ren19

I'm opposed to recasting, I just really don't want to see another person portraying her. They can say have Leia on her death bed but you don't see her face, just her body. I imagine something like Rey holding her hand during her last moments, a close up her hand. There has to be many ways to have her presence felt despite her not being there. There is the whole mysterious letter she left for Ben. It's very doable.
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Re: Leia Organa in Episode IX

Post by Kessel on Sat 17 Feb 2018, 6:41 pm

I admit, I was initially against any kind of recast for Leia. I’ve had a hard time accepting the recast of young Han so a recast of Leia right after Carrie just played her seemed even more difficult for me to accept. However, having Leia completely gone makes it very difficult to complete her arc, especially if her involvement was supposed to impact Kylo, so I’d rather see them recast the role than try to change the story in a way that could negatively impact Leia and Kylo’s characters.

I guess her role would still need to be minimized compared to what it was supposed to be with Carrie anyway though, so perhaps they could do some scenes with a recast Leia without over focusing on her face.

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Re: Leia Organa in Episode IX

Post by ZioRen on Sat 17 Feb 2018, 6:49 pm

Recast would be best for the story but I can't see the majority of the audience being cool with it. Leia is such an iconic character with an iconic actress. Look how angry people got at a different actor playing Han in a prequel, let alone this scenario.
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Re: Leia Organa in Episode IX

Post by rawpowah on Sat 17 Feb 2018, 7:44 pm

@IoJovi wrote:
@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@rawpowah wrote:@Dar-ren19 Well, they ruled out CGI, so the force ghost would have to be of an actress playing young Leia if they want Ben to interact with her. Unless they just need a shot of force ghost Leia looking at Ben from a distance (like the ghosts in RotJ), in which case they can just reuse stock footage they have of Carrie. In my opinion, at least.
@rawpowah

I am honestly still hoping for a recast. They never said Leia wouldn't be in Episode IX,  only Carrie Fisher. If they did recast, I do think that they would wait until the last minute to announce it.
@SoloSideCousin

Same.  It’s interesting to me that while it’s been stated that Carrie Fisher will not be appearing in IX, and that no CGI will be used, no one has come out and said after all this time that a recast isn’t happening.  Not one word debunking that.  I’m of the mind that if a recast were on the table, they would have said it by now.  It also explains why the story for TLJ was left completely in tact, when they would have had a years time to make adjustments if they were to write Leia out completely.

I do know that the IX script has now been rewritten several times since Carries passing, which gives me pause that Leia might not appear at all and they may indeed have written her out.  However this also tells me they have had a very hard time nailing down a story without her in it, with or without Colin’s firing.  

If they ARE recasting, I bet it’ll be announced sometime next year, closer to the film’s release.
@IoJovi

I am open to a recast as well. And I agree that if it happens, LF will wait for a while before they announce it.
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Re: Leia Organa in Episode IX

Post by Dar-ren19 on Sat 17 Feb 2018, 9:57 pm

@IoJovi wrote:
@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@rawpowah wrote:@Dar-ren19 Well, they ruled out CGI, so the force ghost would have to be of an actress playing young Leia if they want Ben to interact with her. Unless they just need a shot of force ghost Leia looking at Ben from a distance (like the ghosts in RotJ), in which case they can just reuse stock footage they have of Carrie. In my opinion, at least.
@rawpowah

I am honestly still hoping for a recast. They never said Leia wouldn't be in Episode IX,  only Carrie Fisher. If they did recast, I do think that they would wait until the last minute to announce it.
@SoloSideCousin

Same.  It’s interesting to me that while it’s been stated that Carrie Fisher will not be appearing in IX, and that no CGI will be used, no one has come out and said after all this time that a recast isn’t happening.  Not one word debunking that.  I’m of the mind that if a recast were on the table, they would have said it by now.  It also explains why the story for TLJ was left completely in tact, when they would have had a years time to make adjustments if they were to write Leia out completely.

I do know that the IX script has now been rewritten several times since Carries passing, which gives me pause that Leia might not appear at all and they may indeed have written her out.  However this also tells me they have had a very hard time nailing down a story without her in it, with or without Colin’s firing.  

If they ARE recasting, I bet it’ll be announced sometime next year, closer to the film’s release.

@IoJovi

So you're saying that -- unlike us Trekkies -- SW fans don't get to know the minute somebody is cast in these films? Heh Laughing

@DeeBee loved your post! I am of the same mind and love your and @Let the Past Die 's thoughts on this. I would love it if they showed her writing (maybe from the back -- IIRC there was a shot of Leia from the back in one of the TLJ trailers, right?) and her hands with the rings writing. The idea of her hiding the letter in one of the Jedi text is just awesome! I was only a casual fan from the OT days, but I've become a fan it seems (LOL) and I'd be boohooing as well if this happened! Crying or Very sad

Btw, has anyone asked JJ or KK or anyone else whether they're interested in a recast Leia for EpIX?


Last edited by Dar-ren19 on Sat 17 Feb 2018, 10:24 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : deleted double post and added the thoughts on here)
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Dar-ren19
Jedi Knight
Jedi Knight

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Date d'inscription : 2018-01-12

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