Discussions: Tweets/Instagram

Page 6 of 40 Previous  1 ... 5, 6, 7 ... 23 ... 40  Next

Go down

Discussions: Tweets/Instagram - Page 6 Empty Re: Discussions: Tweets/Instagram

Post by ZioRen on Sat 17 Feb 2018, 12:35 am

I think the problem with the comparison is that it suggests Luke wasn't completely wrong to consider killing Ben Solo in his sleep when he'd done nothing yet. It wasn't an ethical dilemma at all; it was straight up wrong. If Ben had already committed atrocities, that would be one thing. But he hadn't.

It's possible that Mark was just talking about how Luke was viewing it in that exact moment and realized he was incorrect afterwards but it won't be taken that way by most people. Oh well, another day another facepalm.

@RosiePancake
I get it. I saw that same thing on Tumblr and already had my rage period over it in another thread. It's not been a great night for me either and I understand why you had that kneejerk reaction.


Last edited by ZioRen on Sat 17 Feb 2018, 12:40 am; edited 2 times in total
ZioRen
ZioRen
Force Ghost
Force Ghost

Messages : 2756
Likes : 18809
Date d'inscription : 2016-05-27

Back to top Go down

Discussions: Tweets/Instagram - Page 6 Empty Re: Discussions: Tweets/Instagram

Post by SoloSideCousin on Sat 17 Feb 2018, 12:36 am

@whisperingwillow wrote:Tbh I am kinda like whatever when they say things like this because he never was "baby Hitler" even when Luke was looking into Kylo's mind. Until the moment Luke pulled the lightsaber on him he had not turned to the dark side and therefore "baby Hitler" doesn't exist. Ben had fought for years against what Snoke was doing to him and had his family not done what they did I think Ben's love for them would have won out but instead Luke created "baby Hitler".

Mark is extremely bitter over the story Rian wrote for TLJ and even though he says otherwise continuing to talk about it and make some of the comments and snide remarks he has it is clear he is still bitter.
@whisperingwillow

I agree. I don't follow Mark because I am not on Twitter, but it was my impression that some of this talk had calmed down after his mea culpa to Disney.  I now wonder if they are not going to use him as much as he thought in Episode IX, and now some of the bitterness is really coming out.

I don't really have anything to base this on, except from gut feelings from interviews, but I don't think JJ is anywhere near the Luke stan that Rian is.  Also, JJ is part of the production team.  JJ's production house has a direct financial stake in some of these movies.  He (and Bob Iger) may not be pleased with all this nonsense.  And it is nonsense.  Rian gave MH the best acting opportunity of his life.  MH was never better.  And yet Mark keeps whining about this.
SoloSideCousin
SoloSideCousin
Force Ghost
Force Ghost

Messages : 4733
Likes : 22909
Date d'inscription : 2016-03-25

Back to top Go down

Discussions: Tweets/Instagram - Page 6 Empty Re: Discussions: Tweets/Instagram

Post by Dar-ren19 on Sat 17 Feb 2018, 12:42 am

@RosiePancake aww... I don't think you should take it to heart. Mark has twitter diarrhea. I was just chatting with a friend who's had a few back and forth twitter words with the story group and she doesn't think any of what he says gets taken seriously by anybody other than antis. And most certainly not JJ.
Dar-ren19
Dar-ren19
Jedi Master
Jedi Master

Messages : 700
Likes : 2162
Date d'inscription : 2018-01-12

Back to top Go down

Discussions: Tweets/Instagram - Page 6 Empty Re: Discussions: Tweets/Instagram

Post by IoJovi on Sat 17 Feb 2018, 12:46 am

@Dar-ren19 wrote:@RosiePancake aww... I don't think you should take it to heart. Mark has twitter diarrhea. I was just chatting with a friend who's had a few back and forth twitter words with the story group and she doesn't think any of what he says gets taken seriously by anybody other than antis. And most certainly not JJ.
@Dar-ren19

Yeah this has no bearing on the story whatsoever. It’s just Mark being bitter about Luke’s backstory, which dismantled the legend of Luke Skywalker as person who could see the good in everyone. Mark is saying he had to use THIS analogy to get to that point because nothing else was working for him as an actor. If that’s true fine, but I don’t think this is something that needed to go on Twitter.

And KelloggGate has been largely debunked as far as I’m concerned- it is either a mistranslation or faked altogether.

IoJovi
IoJovi
Force Ghost
Force Ghost

Messages : 7289
Likes : 41504
Date d'inscription : 2016-03-25
Age : 102
Localisation : Atlanta, GA

Back to top Go down

Discussions: Tweets/Instagram - Page 6 Empty Re: Discussions: Tweets/Instagram

Post by Dar-ren19 on Sat 17 Feb 2018, 12:58 am

@IoJovi agreed about the bitterness, although it makes me think - did he SEE the character narrative which basically showed that Luke wouldn't have done it? I get the Hitler analogy, but frankly it doesn't show him in good light and is not in his favor.

I also agree with what @SoloSideCousin wrote above. I seriously doubt if JJ will use him a lot. Frankly, I'd rather see anyone else -- including Hayden C. as Anakin's FG, rather than Luke's FG in EPIX. I think we had enough Luke in VIII.
Dar-ren19
Dar-ren19
Jedi Master
Jedi Master

Messages : 700
Likes : 2162
Date d'inscription : 2018-01-12

Back to top Go down

Discussions: Tweets/Instagram - Page 6 Empty Re: Discussions: Tweets/Instagram

Post by Dar-ren19 on Sat 17 Feb 2018, 1:03 am

Btw, I gotta say how happy I was that he included ALL FOUR of them, not just the first three:

Asked if fan outcry would at all impact his vision for the upcoming film, Abrams was clear. “Not in the least,” he said, adding, “There’s a lot that I would like to say about it, but I feel like it’s a little early to be having the ‘Episode IX’ conversation … I will say that the story of Rey and Poe and Finn and Kylo Ren — and if you look, there are three men and one woman, to those that are complaining that there are too many women in ‘Star Wars’ — their story continues in a way that I couldn’t be more excited about and cannot wait for people to see.” wrote:

One woman and THREE men, just like in ANH, or whatever.

http://www.indiewire.com/2018/02/jj-abrams-star-wars-last-jedi-women-1201929593/
Dar-ren19
Dar-ren19
Jedi Master
Jedi Master

Messages : 700
Likes : 2162
Date d'inscription : 2018-01-12

Back to top Go down

Discussions: Tweets/Instagram - Page 6 Empty Re: Discussions: Tweets/Instagram

Post by Saracene on Sat 17 Feb 2018, 1:06 am

@ZioRen wrote:I think the problem with the comparison is that it suggests Luke wasn't completely wrong to consider killing Ben Solo in his sleep when he'd done nothing yet. It wasn't an ethical dilemma at all; it was straight up wrong. If Ben had already committed atrocities, that would be one thing. But he hadn't.

It's possible that Mark was just talking about how Luke was viewing it in that exact moment and realized he was incorrect afterwards but it won't be taken that way by most people. Oh well, another day another facepalm.

@RosiePancake
I get it. I saw that same thing on Tumblr and already had my rage period over it in another thread. It's not been a great night for me either and I understand why you had that kneejerk reaction.
@ZioRen

The comparison though is between young Ben Solo (who hasn't done anything yet), and *baby* Hitler who also wouldn't have done anything wrong yet when you would theoretically consider killing him in his crib. I don't think the comparison is completely invalid, in both cases it's a choice of killing an innocent to prevent the evil you know they would cause later (I presume that those screams were flashes of the terrible future Luke saw while scanning Ben's mind).
Saracene
Saracene
Force Ghost
Force Ghost

Messages : 2188
Likes : 13977
Date d'inscription : 2016-03-27
Age : 39
Localisation : Melbourne

http://yggdrasille.com

Back to top Go down

Discussions: Tweets/Instagram - Page 6 Empty Re: Discussions: Tweets/Instagram

Post by Night Huntress on Sat 17 Feb 2018, 1:08 am

Well, that wasn't a good comparison even if he did thought something like that during acting the scene to pull it off.
He could've said something like "could you kill a kid knowing there is a chance he become someone like Palpatine"?

I cringe every time people compare fictional characters to real live bad guys. But that's just me.

Anyway, I like Mark too much to be really angry about it... yeah, whatever. The only people taking that seriously are antis and I don't give a sh** about what they're saying or thinking. Nope
Night Huntress
Night Huntress
Force Ghost
Force Ghost

Messages : 1839
Likes : 8816
Date d'inscription : 2017-08-24
Age : 36
Localisation : Switzerland

Back to top Go down

Discussions: Tweets/Instagram - Page 6 Empty Re: Discussions: Tweets/Instagram

Post by SoloSideCousin on Sat 17 Feb 2018, 1:10 am

@Dar-ren19 wrote:@RosiePancake aww... I don't think you should take it to heart. Mark has twitter diarrhea. I was just chatting with a friend who's had a few back and forth twitter words with the story group and she doesn't think any of what he says gets taken seriously by anybody other than antis. And most certainly not JJ.
@Dar-ren19

Yes, I definitely think that there is some truth in what your friend was saying about the SG and directors dismissing MH to some extent.  Mark does seem to have gotten really caught up in the "legend" of Luke Skywalker, probably including Luke's god-like status in the old EU.  I also imagine that Mark has been on the fan/convention circuit a ton more than Harrison Ford or even Carrie Fisher would have been.  Mark's biggest gig ever was being Luke, so I think that fan immersion factor doesn't make him a particularly objective person when suggesting directions for the movies.

That was not the case with Harrison Ford and Carrie Fisher.  Both of them successfully came out from under the shadow of SW.  Obviously, Harrison Ford has had a ton of notable roles and is well-respected in the industry.  Also, though Leia was Carrie's most notable acting role, she had a whole separate body of work as a writer that garnered her a lot of respect.

I think that this difference in experience and perspective made HF's and CF's opinions and suggestions on the ST more valuable in the eyes of the production team than Mark's opinions.  HF seems to have had some significant input on the catwalk scene (even using his own son's name).  He is also like the font of wisdom for the Solo movie as well, more so than even GL.

Carrie Fisher had significant influence on Rian's script, and has script-doctored a ton of Hollywood scripts.

OTOH, it seems like JJ and Rian politely listened to Mark and then always said, "I think that we will go another way."

It's kind of sad for MH, but Disney didn't buy the property to film the old EU.  They were going to not only make it their own, they were going to make it significantly different from the old EU in doing so.
SoloSideCousin
SoloSideCousin
Force Ghost
Force Ghost

Messages : 4733
Likes : 22909
Date d'inscription : 2016-03-25

Back to top Go down

Discussions: Tweets/Instagram - Page 6 Empty Re: Discussions: Tweets/Instagram

Post by Night Huntress on Sat 17 Feb 2018, 1:10 am

@ZioRen wrote:
@special_cases wrote:Yes! Now we will have at least a few legit gifs from Rey\Kylo scene! Sleemo already created a few! And that scene looks so cool in HD.
@special_cases

And we can finally post them here because they're from legit and not camrip sources!

Discussions: Tweets/Instagram - Page 6 Tumblr_p49syw998F1w6j24yo3_r2_540
Discussions: Tweets/Instagram - Page 6 Tumblr_p49syw998F1w6j24yo1_r1_540
Discussions: Tweets/Instagram - Page 6 Tumblr_p49syw998F1w6j24yo2_r1_540
@ZioRen

I saw this many times but seeing it in HD is something completely different! It's so amazing! Can't wait for the blue-ray release! H-beating H-beating H-beating
Night Huntress
Night Huntress
Force Ghost
Force Ghost

Messages : 1839
Likes : 8816
Date d'inscription : 2017-08-24
Age : 36
Localisation : Switzerland

Back to top Go down

Discussions: Tweets/Instagram - Page 6 Empty Re: Discussions: Tweets/Instagram

Post by CienaRee on Sat 17 Feb 2018, 1:11 am

@Saracene wrote:
@ZioRen wrote:I think the problem with the comparison is that it suggests Luke wasn't completely wrong to consider killing Ben Solo in his sleep when he'd done nothing yet. It wasn't an ethical dilemma at all; it was straight up wrong. If Ben had already committed atrocities, that would be one thing. But he hadn't.

It's possible that Mark was just talking about how Luke was viewing it in that exact moment and realized he was incorrect afterwards but it won't be taken that way by most people. Oh well, another day another facepalm.

@RosiePancake
I get it. I saw that same thing on Tumblr and already had my rage period over it in another thread. It's not been a great night for me either and I understand why you had that kneejerk reaction.
@ZioRen

The comparison though is between young Ben Solo (who hasn't done anything yet), and *baby* Hitler who also wouldn't have done anything wrong yet when you would theoretically consider killing him in his crib. I don't think the comparison is completely invalid, in both cases it's a choice of killing an innocent to prevent the evil you know they would cause later (I presume that those screams were flashes of the terrible future Luke saw while scanning Ben's mind).
@Saracene

True,but in Luke's case he was not some random person considering killing another human being that was his nephew,his ear sister's son she trusted him with and for him to even consider murdering him especially knowing in retrospect that Leia would still want him back after he became Kylo Ren is just a horrible betrayal even more so if you add in that Luke didn't even bother telling Ben's parents what happened and lied to Rey the first time.
Personally I really wish these Kylo vs Hitler comparisons would stop because Kylo's nothing like him.If there's a Hitler like version that's Hux yet I haven't really seen anyone besides the Reylo fandom make that comparison.

CienaRee
Force Ghost
Force Ghost

Messages : 1154
Likes : 5684
Date d'inscription : 2016-03-26

Back to top Go down

Discussions: Tweets/Instagram - Page 6 Empty Re: Discussions: Tweets/Instagram

Post by Dar-ren19 on Sat 17 Feb 2018, 1:15 am

@Saracene yeah, I do get the analogy, and like someone said upthread, this would have been fine had he said this to a friend. Instead. he said it in an interview and it gets blasted all over twitter and the antis are now gobbling it up. Either way, it doesn't show Mark in good light and pretty much megaphones his continued resentment. I mean, this was pretty much his best turn as the character, with enormous amounts of character development. But he doesn't get THAT. Instead, he's all about how Luke Skywalker's goodness has been sullied. It tells me something about him, frankly, that I don't particularly want to articulate.
Dar-ren19
Dar-ren19
Jedi Master
Jedi Master

Messages : 700
Likes : 2162
Date d'inscription : 2018-01-12

Back to top Go down

Discussions: Tweets/Instagram - Page 6 Empty Re: Discussions: Tweets/Instagram

Post by SoloSideCousin on Sat 17 Feb 2018, 1:20 am

@CienaRee wrote:
@Saracene wrote:
@ZioRen wrote:I think the problem with the comparison is that it suggests Luke wasn't completely wrong to consider killing Ben Solo in his sleep when he'd done nothing yet. It wasn't an ethical dilemma at all; it was straight up wrong. If Ben had already committed atrocities, that would be one thing. But he hadn't.

It's possible that Mark was just talking about how Luke was viewing it in that exact moment and realized he was incorrect afterwards but it won't be taken that way by most people. Oh well, another day another facepalm.

@RosiePancake
I get it. I saw that same thing on Tumblr and already had my rage period over it in another thread. It's not been a great night for me either and I understand why you had that kneejerk reaction.
@ZioRen

The comparison though is between young Ben Solo (who hasn't done anything yet), and *baby* Hitler who also wouldn't have done anything wrong yet when you would theoretically consider killing him in his crib. I don't think the comparison is completely invalid, in both cases it's a choice of killing an innocent to prevent the evil you know they would cause later (I presume that those screams were flashes of the terrible future Luke saw while scanning Ben's mind).
@Saracene

True,but in Luke's case he was not some random person considering killing another human being that was his nephew,his ear sister's son she trusted him with and for him to even consider murdering him especially knowing in retrospect that Leia would still want him back after he became Kylo Ren is just a horrible betrayal even more so if you add in that Luke didn't even bother telling Ben's parents what happened and lied to Rey the first time.
Personally I really wish these Kylo vs Hitler comparisons would stop because Kylo's nothing like him.If there's a Hitler like version that's Hux yet I haven't really seen anyone besides the Reylo fandom make that comparison.
@CienaRee

I agree with all this. As for the Hitler comparisons, it frankly shows a horrible level of ignorance to just throw his name around like that.  If you don't know any history, then read a book, if that is too much, please look up Leni Riefenstahl, and if that's too hard, at least stream a movie like Downfall to get a clue.

I can guarantee that neither JJ nor Rian asked AD to watch Riefenstahl's films or Downfall to prepare for Kylo.  His assignments were probably more in line with "read Jane Eyre and get into Mr. Rochester's head."


Last edited by SoloSideCousin on Sat 17 Feb 2018, 1:24 am; edited 1 time in total
SoloSideCousin
SoloSideCousin
Force Ghost
Force Ghost

Messages : 4733
Likes : 22909
Date d'inscription : 2016-03-25

Back to top Go down

Discussions: Tweets/Instagram - Page 6 Empty Re: Discussions: Tweets/Instagram

Post by ZioRen on Sat 17 Feb 2018, 1:21 am

@Saracene wrote:
@ZioRen wrote:I think the problem with the comparison is that it suggests Luke wasn't completely wrong to consider killing Ben Solo in his sleep when he'd done nothing yet. It wasn't an ethical dilemma at all; it was straight up wrong. If Ben had already committed atrocities, that would be one thing. But he hadn't.

It's possible that Mark was just talking about how Luke was viewing it in that exact moment and realized he was incorrect afterwards but it won't be taken that way by most people. Oh well, another day another facepalm.

@RosiePancake
I get it. I saw that same thing on Tumblr and already had my rage period over it in another thread. It's not been a great night for me either and I understand why you had that kneejerk reaction.
@ZioRen

The comparison though is between young Ben Solo (who hasn't done anything yet), and *baby* Hitler who also wouldn't have done anything wrong yet when you would theoretically consider killing him in his crib. I don't think the comparison is completely invalid, in both cases it's a choice of killing an innocent to prevent the evil you know they would cause later (I presume that those screams were flashes of the terrible future Luke saw while scanning Ben's mind).
@Saracene

But in that Hitler dilemma, the timeline where Hitler did what he did already happened. It's solidified that it went that direction and it's about going back to the past to try and change things. It wasn't solidified with Ben Solo, who may well have continued just fighting off Snoke's influence if Luke had never done that. It's not comparable imo. I saw what happened as a self-fulfilling prophecy that Luke set into motion. He saw a vision of the future he would kick off with his actions.


Last edited by ZioRen on Sat 17 Feb 2018, 1:25 am; edited 1 time in total
ZioRen
ZioRen
Force Ghost
Force Ghost

Messages : 2756
Likes : 18809
Date d'inscription : 2016-05-27

Back to top Go down

Discussions: Tweets/Instagram - Page 6 Empty Re: Discussions: Tweets/Instagram

Post by CienaRee on Sat 17 Feb 2018, 1:25 am

@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@CienaRee wrote:
@Saracene wrote:
@ZioRen wrote:I think the problem with the comparison is that it suggests Luke wasn't completely wrong to consider killing Ben Solo in his sleep when he'd done nothing yet. It wasn't an ethical dilemma at all; it was straight up wrong. If Ben had already committed atrocities, that would be one thing. But he hadn't.

It's possible that Mark was just talking about how Luke was viewing it in that exact moment and realized he was incorrect afterwards but it won't be taken that way by most people. Oh well, another day another facepalm.

@RosiePancake
I get it. I saw that same thing on Tumblr and already had my rage period over it in another thread. It's not been a great night for me either and I understand why you had that kneejerk reaction.
@ZioRen

The comparison though is between young Ben Solo (who hasn't done anything yet), and *baby* Hitler who also wouldn't have done anything wrong yet when you would theoretically consider killing him in his crib. I don't think the comparison is completely invalid, in both cases it's a choice of killing an innocent to prevent the evil you know they would cause later (I presume that those screams were flashes of the terrible future Luke saw while scanning Ben's mind).
@Saracene

True,but in Luke's case he was not some random person considering killing another human being that was his nephew,his ear sister's son she trusted him with and for him to even consider murdering him especially knowing in retrospect that Leia would still want him back after he became Kylo Ren is just a horrible betrayal even more so if you add in that Luke didn't even bother telling Ben's parents what happened and lied to Rey the first time.
Personally I really wish these Kylo vs Hitler comparisons would stop because Kylo's nothing like him.If there's a Hitler like version that's Hux yet I haven't really seen anyone besides the Reylo fandom make that comparison.
@CienaRee

I agree with all this. As for the Hitler comparisons, it frankly shows a horrible level of ignorance to just throw his name around like that.  If you don't know any history, then please look up Leni Riefenstahl, and if that's too hard, at least stream a movie like Downfall to get a clue.

I can guarantee that neither JJ nor Rian asked AD to watch Riefenstahl's films or Downfall to prepare for Kylo.  His assignments were probably more in line with "read Jane Eyre and get into Mr. Rochester's head."
@SoloSideCousin

Yeah,definitely. I get the sense that Mark just couldn't understand how Luke could even contemplate killing his own nephew which is understandable especially if he wasn't provided any kind of back story to why Luke would change to this extent so I get him trying to think of the worst possible scenario in order to explain his character's motivation that's nothing new most actors do that all the time but he should have probably kept the Hitler thing to himself because it's just not a good comparison at all.It would have been much better had he compared him with other fictional villain instead of RL bad guys.

CienaRee
Force Ghost
Force Ghost

Messages : 1154
Likes : 5684
Date d'inscription : 2016-03-26

Back to top Go down

Discussions: Tweets/Instagram - Page 6 Empty Re: Discussions: Tweets/Instagram

Post by Dar-ren19 on Sat 17 Feb 2018, 1:28 am

Oh and that friend of mine on twitter just did a snark at Mark (she does like him but not as much as she likes/loves HF and CF, btw). I thought it was funny because it kinda gets to the heart of what Mark and his SW immersion is all about Razz

Discussions: Tweets/Instagram - Page 6 Captur11
Dar-ren19
Dar-ren19
Jedi Master
Jedi Master

Messages : 700
Likes : 2162
Date d'inscription : 2018-01-12

Back to top Go down

Discussions: Tweets/Instagram - Page 6 Empty Re: Discussions: Tweets/Instagram

Post by Saracene on Sat 17 Feb 2018, 1:29 am

@ZioRen wrote:
@Saracene wrote:
@ZioRen wrote:I think the problem with the comparison is that it suggests Luke wasn't completely wrong to consider killing Ben Solo in his sleep when he'd done nothing yet. It wasn't an ethical dilemma at all; it was straight up wrong. If Ben had already committed atrocities, that would be one thing. But he hadn't.

It's possible that Mark was just talking about how Luke was viewing it in that exact moment and realized he was incorrect afterwards but it won't be taken that way by most people. Oh well, another day another facepalm.

@RosiePancake
I get it. I saw that same thing on Tumblr and already had my rage period over it in another thread. It's not been a great night for me either and I understand why you had that kneejerk reaction.
@ZioRen

The comparison though is between young Ben Solo (who hasn't done anything yet), and *baby* Hitler who also wouldn't have done anything wrong yet when you would theoretically consider killing him in his crib. I don't think the comparison is completely invalid, in both cases it's a choice of killing an innocent to prevent the evil you know they would cause later (I presume that those screams were flashes of the terrible future Luke saw while scanning Ben's mind).
@Saracene

But in that Hitler dilemma, the timeline where Hitler did what he did already happened. It's solidified that it went that direction and it's about going back to the past to try and change things. It wasn't solidified with Ben Solo, who may well have continued just fighting off Snoke's influence if Luke had never done that. It's not comparable imo.
@ZioRen

Time travel can be tricky to argue about, but at the moment of considering killing baby Hitler, his future isn't solidified either. That's where the dilemma comes from.

I also don't think that the movie was clear enough on whether or not Ben was fighting Snoke's influence. We don't really get to see his perspective.
Saracene
Saracene
Force Ghost
Force Ghost

Messages : 2188
Likes : 13977
Date d'inscription : 2016-03-27
Age : 39
Localisation : Melbourne

http://yggdrasille.com

Back to top Go down

Discussions: Tweets/Instagram - Page 6 Empty Re: Discussions: Tweets/Instagram

Post by ZioRen on Sat 17 Feb 2018, 1:32 am

@Saracene wrote:
@ZioRen wrote:
@Saracene wrote:
@ZioRen wrote:I think the problem with the comparison is that it suggests Luke wasn't completely wrong to consider killing Ben Solo in his sleep when he'd done nothing yet. It wasn't an ethical dilemma at all; it was straight up wrong. If Ben had already committed atrocities, that would be one thing. But he hadn't.

It's possible that Mark was just talking about how Luke was viewing it in that exact moment and realized he was incorrect afterwards but it won't be taken that way by most people. Oh well, another day another facepalm.

@RosiePancake
I get it. I saw that same thing on Tumblr and already had my rage period over it in another thread. It's not been a great night for me either and I understand why you had that kneejerk reaction.
@ZioRen

The comparison though is between young Ben Solo (who hasn't done anything yet), and *baby* Hitler who also wouldn't have done anything wrong yet when you would theoretically consider killing him in his crib. I don't think the comparison is completely invalid, in both cases it's a choice of killing an innocent to prevent the evil you know they would cause later (I presume that those screams were flashes of the terrible future Luke saw while scanning Ben's mind).
@Saracene

But in that Hitler dilemma, the timeline where Hitler did what he did already happened. It's solidified that it went that direction and it's about going back to the past to try and change things. It wasn't solidified with Ben Solo, who may well have continued just fighting off Snoke's influence if Luke had never done that. It's not comparable imo.
@ZioRen

Time travel can be tricky to argue about, but at the moment of considering killing baby Hitler, his future isn't solidified either. That's where the dilemma comes from.

I also don't think that the movie was clear enough on whether or not Ben was fighting Snoke's influence. We don't really get to see his perspective.
@Saracene

But we know Hitler went that direction without intervention. When Luke considered killing Ben Solo, he didn't know that. He just saw a vision of it, and I think that vision was something he himself would create with his actions and he didn't realize it. It's not really an argument about time travel but about solid knowledge versus visions that can be seen in a skewed way. Luke didn't come from a future where Kylo massacred the galaxy because nobody stopped him and then have his dilemma. Like Rey said, Luke made Ben's choice for him.
ZioRen
ZioRen
Force Ghost
Force Ghost

Messages : 2756
Likes : 18809
Date d'inscription : 2016-05-27

Back to top Go down

Discussions: Tweets/Instagram - Page 6 Empty Re: Discussions: Tweets/Instagram

Post by CienaRee on Sat 17 Feb 2018, 1:32 am

@Saracene wrote:
@ZioRen wrote:
@Saracene wrote:
@ZioRen wrote:I think the problem with the comparison is that it suggests Luke wasn't completely wrong to consider killing Ben Solo in his sleep when he'd done nothing yet. It wasn't an ethical dilemma at all; it was straight up wrong. If Ben had already committed atrocities, that would be one thing. But he hadn't.

It's possible that Mark was just talking about how Luke was viewing it in that exact moment and realized he was incorrect afterwards but it won't be taken that way by most people. Oh well, another day another facepalm.

@RosiePancake
I get it. I saw that same thing on Tumblr and already had my rage period over it in another thread. It's not been a great night for me either and I understand why you had that kneejerk reaction.
@ZioRen

The comparison though is between young Ben Solo (who hasn't done anything yet), and *baby* Hitler who also wouldn't have done anything wrong yet when you would theoretically consider killing him in his crib. I don't think the comparison is completely invalid, in both cases it's a choice of killing an innocent to prevent the evil you know they would cause later (I presume that those screams were flashes of the terrible future Luke saw while scanning Ben's mind).
@Saracene

But in that Hitler dilemma, the timeline where Hitler did what he did already happened. It's solidified that it went that direction and it's about going back to the past to try and change things. It wasn't solidified with Ben Solo, who may well have continued just fighting off Snoke's influence if Luke had never done that. It's not comparable imo.
@ZioRen

Time travel can be tricky to argue about, but at the moment of considering killing baby Hitler, his future isn't solidified either. That's where the dilemma comes from.

I also don't think that the movie was clear enough on whether or not Ben was fighting Snoke's influence. We don't really get to see his perspective.
@Saracene

I thought it was actually when Luke said that he saw the eyes of a young boy who was scared betrayed by his master.It also makes nos sense for Ben to have felt this betrayed and traumatized as we see him Crait if he wasn't fighting Snoke's influence.By subverting all of this it makes Ben's fall less tragic because ti implies Luke was somewhat in the right to try and kill him since he had already fallen to the DS.

CienaRee
Force Ghost
Force Ghost

Messages : 1154
Likes : 5684
Date d'inscription : 2016-03-26

Back to top Go down

Discussions: Tweets/Instagram - Page 6 Empty Re: Discussions: Tweets/Instagram

Post by Dar-ren19 on Sat 17 Feb 2018, 1:36 am

I think TLJ showed just enough so the audience does GET the enormous sense of betrayal and the resulting rage that Kylo/Ben felt. I don't think it showed enough frankly of how much guilt Luke felt.... IMO, this was perhaps a failure of direction or the acting.
Dar-ren19
Dar-ren19
Jedi Master
Jedi Master

Messages : 700
Likes : 2162
Date d'inscription : 2018-01-12

Back to top Go down

Discussions: Tweets/Instagram - Page 6 Empty Re: Discussions: Tweets/Instagram

Post by Saracene on Sat 17 Feb 2018, 1:43 am

@ZioRen I guess for me dilemma is more about, what
@ZioRen wrote:
@Saracene wrote:
@ZioRen wrote:
@Saracene wrote:
@ZioRen wrote:I think the problem with the comparison is that it suggests Luke wasn't completely wrong to consider killing Ben Solo in his sleep when he'd done nothing yet. It wasn't an ethical dilemma at all; it was straight up wrong. If Ben had already committed atrocities, that would be one thing. But he hadn't.

It's possible that Mark was just talking about how Luke was viewing it in that exact moment and realized he was incorrect afterwards but it won't be taken that way by most people. Oh well, another day another facepalm.

@RosiePancake
I get it. I saw that same thing on Tumblr and already had my rage period over it in another thread. It's not been a great night for me either and I understand why you had that kneejerk reaction.
@ZioRen

The comparison though is between young Ben Solo (who hasn't done anything yet), and *baby* Hitler who also wouldn't have done anything wrong yet when you would theoretically consider killing him in his crib. I don't think the comparison is completely invalid, in both cases it's a choice of killing an innocent to prevent the evil you know they would cause later (I presume that those screams were flashes of the terrible future Luke saw while scanning Ben's mind).
@Saracene

But in that Hitler dilemma, the timeline where Hitler did what he did already happened. It's solidified that it went that direction and it's about going back to the past to try and change things. It wasn't solidified with Ben Solo, who may well have continued just fighting off Snoke's influence if Luke had never done that. It's not comparable imo.
@ZioRen

Time travel can be tricky to argue about, but at the moment of considering killing baby Hitler, his future isn't solidified either. That's where the dilemma comes from.

I also don't think that the movie was clear enough on whether or not Ben was fighting Snoke's influence. We don't really get to see his perspective.
@Saracene

But we know Hitler went that direction without intervention. When Luke considered killing Ben Solo, he didn't know that. He just saw a vision of it, and I think that vision was something he himself would create with his actions and he didn't realize it. It's not really an argument about time travel but about solid knowledge versus visions that can be seen in a skewed way. Luke didn't come from a future where Kylo massacred the galaxy because nobody stopped him and then have his dilemma. Like Rey said, Luke made Ben's choice for him.
@ZioRen

I guess for me the question is not really about whether you know for certain that a person would cause great evil. It's about whether it's right to kill that person at a point where they haven't done anything yet. Whether you've time-travelled from a future where it happened or seen it in a vision is immaterial.
Saracene
Saracene
Force Ghost
Force Ghost

Messages : 2188
Likes : 13977
Date d'inscription : 2016-03-27
Age : 39
Localisation : Melbourne

http://yggdrasille.com

Back to top Go down

Discussions: Tweets/Instagram - Page 6 Empty Re: Discussions: Tweets/Instagram

Post by SoloSideCousin on Sat 17 Feb 2018, 1:45 am

@Dar-ren19 wrote:I think TLJ showed just enough so the audience does GET the enormous sense of betrayal and the resulting rage that Kylo/Ben felt. I don't think it showed enough frankly of how much guilt Luke felt.... IMO, this was perhaps a failure of direction or the acting.
@Dar-ren19

I agree.  It especially looked really bad when Luke lied to Rey.  Luke could have sent her packing with one sentence.  Also, he said that he thought he should die, so why the reluctance to confess?  He would either die at Ahch-to like he thought, or he would die somewhere else.  If he legitimately thought that he should die for his sin, the place shouldn't matter, whether it be on Ahch-to or on the end of Leia's blaster.  The fact that he does lies shows that he is not completely remorseful over what he did to Ben.  He might be remorseful towards Leia, but the lie shows that a part of him still justified what he did.
SoloSideCousin
SoloSideCousin
Force Ghost
Force Ghost

Messages : 4733
Likes : 22909
Date d'inscription : 2016-03-25

Back to top Go down

Discussions: Tweets/Instagram - Page 6 Empty Re: Discussions: Tweets/Instagram

Post by ZioRen on Sat 17 Feb 2018, 1:48 am

@Saracene
I think that the distinction is everything in this argument and changes it completely. The game is entirely different to me when you KNOW someone committed atrocities versus when you have a vision that you could be interpreting incorrectly. It's a dilemma to ponder when you know for sure someone causes pain and suffering in the future. It's wrong when you don't know for sure that they will and that your vision could easily be incorrect or not what you think. In the latter, you're considering condemning someone for a crime they may NEVER have committed in any future versus a crime you know somebody commits in at least one future.

But if we see it differently, we see it differently.
ZioRen
ZioRen
Force Ghost
Force Ghost

Messages : 2756
Likes : 18809
Date d'inscription : 2016-05-27

Back to top Go down

Discussions: Tweets/Instagram - Page 6 Empty Re: Discussions: Tweets/Instagram

Post by SoloSideCousin on Sat 17 Feb 2018, 1:57 am

@ZioRen wrote:@Saracene
I think that the distinction is everything in this argument and changes it completely. The game is entirely different to me when you KNOW someone committed atrocities versus when you have a vision that you could be interpreting incorrectly. It's a dilemma to ponder when you know for sure someone causes pain and suffering in the future. It's wrong when you don't know for sure that they will and that your vision could easily be incorrect or not what you think. In the latter, you're considering condemning someone for a crime they may NEVER have committed in any future versus a crime you know somebody commits in at least one future.

But if we see it differently, we see it differently.
@ZioRen

Also, was Luke so overwhelmed power-wise by Snoke? This is the guy who turned his "dyed in the wool dark side" father away from the Emperor. The Emperor was not somebody to fool around with. It's very arguable that the Emperor was more powerful than Luke. Also, the Emperor and Vader's connection had been solidified for more than 20 years. Ben *had not made his choice yet*, like Rey said. The kid was still with Luke. He had not gone over to Snoke. Given how traumatized Ben seems to have been by Luke's betrayal, I think that it's safe to say that Luke's opinion carried tremendous weight with Ben. Therefore, Luke still had an outstanding chance of helping his nephew turn from the path Snoke was tempting him to follow, the path that Ben had not walked on yet. In that universe Luke had the power to be a huge gamechanger. Not only could he have not betrayed Ben, he had a chance at helping Ben throw Snoke off. Luke literally had the power to be Ben's magical rehab counselor. He didn't choose that path. He just got his weapon out.
SoloSideCousin
SoloSideCousin
Force Ghost
Force Ghost

Messages : 4733
Likes : 22909
Date d'inscription : 2016-03-25

Back to top Go down

Discussions: Tweets/Instagram - Page 6 Empty Re: Discussions: Tweets/Instagram

Post by Dar-ren19 on Sat 17 Feb 2018, 1:58 am

@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@Dar-ren19 wrote:I think TLJ showed just enough so the audience does GET the enormous sense of betrayal and the resulting rage that Kylo/Ben felt. I don't think it showed enough frankly of how much guilt Luke felt.... IMO, this was perhaps a failure of direction or the acting.
@Dar-ren19

I agree.  It especially looked really bad when Luke lied to Rey.  Luke could have sent her packing with one sentence.  Also, he said that he thought he should die, so why the reluctance to confess?  He would either die at Ahch-to like he thought, or he would die somewhere else.  If he legitimately thought that he should die for his sin, the place shouldn't matter, whether it be on Ahch-to or on the end of Leia's blaster.  The fact that he does lies shows that he is not completely remorseful over what he did to Ben.  He might be remorseful towards Leia, but the lie shows that a part of him still justified what he did.
@SoloSideCousin

yes, and even before he dies, he does not tell Leia. to me, this was either a deliberate deception on the character's part that the director wanted, or it was being held for IX when we see Leia/Carrie's turn. Unfortunately, that was not to be.
Dar-ren19
Dar-ren19
Jedi Master
Jedi Master

Messages : 700
Likes : 2162
Date d'inscription : 2018-01-12

Back to top Go down

Page 6 of 40 Previous  1 ... 5, 6, 7 ... 23 ... 40  Next

Back to top


 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum