The Last Jedi General Discussion

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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by californiagirl on Thu 31 May 2018, 11:08 pm

@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@Saracene wrote:
@Riri wrote:I would highly recommend this video essay from Lessons from the Screenplay. The narrator talks about character arcs and explains why he thought Kylo had the best character arc and why he felt Finns arc was not as compelling. TL;DR - Kylo is always placed in situations where he could embrace the darkness but always hesitates (mentions Leia and emotional bond with Rey). Regarding Finn, the audience did not know where Finn stood (regarding the Resistance) at the beginning of the film so that's why his arc didn't feel like much of a journey.

@Riri

This video does make great points about Finn's arc in TLJ and the lack of tension in his personal journey or his relationship with Rose that makes it dull. Something else that struck me recently is that Finn's concern over Rey's safety at the start of the film is kinda messy and not thought through very well. He explains that he wants to run away so that Rey doesn't come back to the doomed Resistance... but his concern seems to be solely about the fact that the First Order keeps gaining on the Resistance because they can track them through light speed. Once they figure out the plan to avoid the FO, Finn goes as far as handing the tracking device leading Rey back to the Resistance back to Poe as a gesture of good faith. But... if the idea is that Finn doesn't care about the Resistance and only cares about Rey, the notion that he believes he has a better chance of keeping Rey safe by going along with a risky plan is not very plausible... so then he does care enough about the Resistance to commit to it?

Maybe the whole thing could have worked better if Finn was reluctant about the mission and instead saw it as a chance to run away, and thought that Rose was just a major pain in the a**, and *then* came around. But I guess they were uncomfortable with the idea of Finn doing anything that would make him look too unlikable, so instead we got this weak wishy-washy arc which, ironically, made the audience care about Finn less.
@Saracene

Yeah, you are right about all of this. It's like they give Finn 5 seconds of looking less than an utterly decent guy, and then immediately run from it.

Poe is awful the whole movie, but then the two women he dismisses give him total absolution for absolutely no reason other than he's hot. What kind of army runs like that?

Then Rey has her grey moments of hitting Luke in the head and going to Kylo, but then the post-PG fight scene is engineered for the most extreme resolution possible where the man who just saved the woman's life and risked everything for her is in all-out war against her in the next scene, while the woman doesn't seem to have any concept of what he did for her, just makes "moral" demands of him without a thank you, and is "woohooing" while she is in a battle against him.

That post-PG fight scene could have played out a million different ways that would have allowed for more nuance. Yes, the scene was dramatic and great with the parent reveal and the Darcy proposal and the "please" and the exploding lightsaber ... but if they had added a little more nuance like Rey realizing what he did for her or him arguing that he didn't want to rule the FO, but something new (which the databank recently confirmed), or that he couldn't stop the attack without appearing treasonous which would get them both killed, or that he couldn't just leave things to Hux, then she would have something of a moral quandary to deal with. She would actually have to make a choice that people could argue about, but instead they set it up so she looks perfectly noble, and as a result, she is much less interesting than she could have been.

Some folks give a lot of guff to the spin-offs, but the spin-offs tend give their characters more complicated motivations and allow them to make questionable choices, even when they are basically supposed to be heroic. The ST could do a better job of that. I love Kylo/Ben with all of my being, but how much better would these movies be if they actually delved into what could be possible for some of these other characters?
@SoloSideCousin

I'm wondering if Rian thought it would make the tension/conflict between Rey and the Resistance more dramatic if it came as a surprise to the audience. Maybe not the best way to tell a story, by hiding the characters' feelings and motivations, but the ST, and TLJ in particular, is obsessed with misguiding the audience and subverting expectations. That's just kind of how these movies roll.

LF is very fixated on making sure their heroes are good role models at all times except in one or two extreme situations. Otherwise we wouldn't hear the end of "LF has failed Finn, Rey, and representation as a whole, and this movie is inappropriate and regressive." That would be the conversation, which would be even more toxic than the one we have now and create even more resentment against SW and Disney than there already is.
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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by DeeBee on Thu 31 May 2018, 11:41 pm

@Kylo Rey wrote:

Umm where the heck are Rose's eyes?!? What kind of weird racism is going on here
@Kylo Rey

Oh dear! Yeah these don't look so good! eek!!!  ROFL Rose has Jazz hands!!! whahahahaah!!
When I saw these images you shared I was not surprised, having just read part 1 yesterday I'm finding the faces of characters to be a weakness in the artwork.. which at times is actually kinda cool.
It will be interesting to keep an eye (get it haaa) on the way Rose is drawn in the next issues and if this continues.
Funny I was thinking her drawing on the cover of the 3 of 6 issue actually looks really good. but they use a different illustrator for the cover than for the actual comics..
There are images where there are no eyes at all.. and the faces in the comic are at times pretty unsympathetic to the characters - not just for Rose.
e.g. see this image of Rey yelling to Luke in his hut?

Rey has no eyes at all haaaaa!!!
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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by SoloSideCousin on Thu 31 May 2018, 11:45 pm

@californiagirl wrote:
@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@Saracene wrote:
@Riri wrote:I would highly recommend this video essay from Lessons from the Screenplay. The narrator talks about character arcs and explains why he thought Kylo had the best character arc and why he felt Finns arc was not as compelling. TL;DR - Kylo is always placed in situations where he could embrace the darkness but always hesitates (mentions Leia and emotional bond with Rey). Regarding Finn,  the audience did not know where Finn stood (regarding the Resistance) at the beginning of the film so that's why his arc didn't feel like much of a journey.

@Riri

This video does make great points about Finn's arc in TLJ and the lack of tension in his personal journey or his relationship with Rose that makes it dull. Something else that struck me recently is that Finn's concern over Rey's safety at the start of the film is kinda messy and not thought through very well. He explains that he wants to run away so that Rey doesn't come back to the doomed Resistance... but his concern seems to be solely about the fact that the First Order keeps gaining on the Resistance because they can track them through light speed. Once they figure out the plan to avoid the FO, Finn goes as far as handing the tracking device leading Rey back to the Resistance back to Poe as a gesture of good faith. But... if the idea is that Finn doesn't care about the Resistance and only cares about Rey, the notion that he believes he has a better chance of keeping Rey safe by going along with a risky plan is not very plausible... so then he does care enough about the Resistance to commit to it?

Maybe the whole thing could have worked better if Finn was reluctant about the mission and instead saw it as a chance to run away, and thought that Rose was just a major pain in the a**, and *then* came around. But I guess they were uncomfortable with the idea of Finn doing anything that would make him look too unlikable, so instead we got this weak wishy-washy arc which, ironically, made the audience care about Finn less.
@Saracene

Yeah, you are right about all of this.  It's like they give Finn 5 seconds of looking less than an utterly decent guy, and then immediately run from it.

Poe is awful the whole movie, but then the two women he dismisses give him total absolution for absolutely no reason other than he's hot. What kind of army runs like that?

Then Rey has her grey moments of hitting Luke in the head and going to Kylo, but then the post-PG fight scene is engineered for the most extreme resolution possible where the man who just saved the woman's life and risked everything for her is in all-out war against her in the next scene, while the woman doesn't seem to have any concept of what he did for her, just makes "moral" demands of him without a thank you, and is "woohooing" while she is in a battle against him.

That post-PG fight scene could have played out a million different ways that would have allowed for more nuance. Yes, the scene was dramatic and great with the parent reveal and the Darcy proposal and the "please" and the exploding lightsaber ... but if they had added a little more nuance like Rey realizing what he did for her or him arguing that he didn't want to rule the FO, but something new (which the databank recently confirmed), or that he couldn't stop the attack without appearing treasonous which would get them both killed, or that he couldn't just leave things to Hux, then she would have something of a moral quandary to deal with. She would actually have to make a choice that people could argue about, but instead they set it up so she looks perfectly noble, and as a result,  she is much less interesting than she could have been.

Some folks give a lot of guff to the spin-offs, but the spin-offs tend give their characters more complicated motivations and allow them to make questionable choices, even when they are basically supposed to be heroic.  The ST could do a better job of that.  I love Kylo/Ben with all of my being, but how much better would these movies be if they actually delved into what could be possible for some of these other characters?
@SoloSideCousin

I'm wondering if Rian thought it would make the tension/conflict between Rey and the Resistance more dramatic if it came as a surprise to the audience. Maybe not the best way to tell a story, by hiding the characters' feelings and motivations, but the ST, and TLJ in particular, is obsessed with misguiding the audience and subverting expectations. That's just kind of how these movies roll.

LF is very fixated on making sure their heroes are good role models at all times except in one or two extreme situations. Otherwise we wouldn't hear the end of "LF has failed Finn, Rey, and representation as a whole, and this movie is inappropriate and regressive." That would be the conversation, which would be even more toxic than the one we have now and create even more resentment against SW and Disney than there already is.
@californiagirl

I don't think it would be more toxic, or the people talking toxicity would look inane, because in the end, great characterization is the best defense. Lando does all kinds of morally questionable s***, so does Cassian, so does Q'ira, and I am sure that there are people complaining about them, but in the end, these complainers don't have a leg to stand on, because these are good characterizations.

Finn is complete milquetoast now, and tons of people are indifferent to him. Poe is like a walking oxymoron. He acts terribly, but we're being told we're supposed to like him and think he's a hero.

Rey is better than those two, but her foundation is still much weaker than it should have been. They could have made her idealistic, but also more complicated.  The Solo version of Han is incredibly idealistic. He's also a criminal and shoots first. Enfys Nest is partially responsible for the deaths of likeable characters and yet she is idealistic as anything.  They had a chance to some really amazing stuff with Rey that would have made her an incredibly memorable character, but despite her being the first female hero, people are going to walk away from the ST remembering Kylo/Ben before anyone else, unless something radically changes in IX, and I doubt it will.

People can make a big show about representation, but if those actors get safe, cookie-cutter, unmemorable writing for their characters, that becomes its own form of bias. Kylo/Ben has been written in a beautiful, gutsy way. As a woman, I would have like them to have applied the same sense risk-taking and originality to Rey.
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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by DeeBee on Thu 31 May 2018, 11:59 pm

Just a random little thing I noticed.. someone may have already mentioned this, but I just noticed Han's dice are not Gold, they use Aurodium.
Han's lucky dice and Leia's earrings in TLJ are made from the same element.

Leia's earrings - from TLJ visual dictionary:

I can't find any other reference to Aurodium in canon and it goes along nicely with the mourning braids that Leia wears in TLJ as a result of Han's death. Han is present in so many various ways in TLJ. Awh. I love this! So touching...
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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by Saracene on Fri 01 Jun 2018, 1:31 am

@SoloSideCousin wrote:That post-PG fight scene could have played out a million different ways that would have allowed for more nuance. Yes, the scene was dramatic and great with the parent reveal and the Darcy proposal and the "please" and the exploding lightsaber ... but if they had added a little more nuance like Rey realizing what he did for her or him arguing that he didn't want to rule the FO, but something new (which the databank recently confirmed), or that he couldn't stop the attack without appearing treasonous which would get them both killed, or that he couldn't just leave things to Hux, then she would have something of a moral quandary to deal with. She would actually have to make a choice that people could argue about, but instead they set it up so she looks perfectly noble, and as a result, she is much less interesting than she could have been.
@SoloSideCousin

I guess the thing with the post-PG fight scene is that it's driven by Kylo's choices rather than Rey's, and Rey can only react to them in a way that's consistent with her characterisation. I.e., she would never go along with the idea of a joint dictatorship (there's really no sugarcoating the fact that this is what Kylo is offering her regardless of whether he just wants to rule the FO or build something new). It wouldn't even matter if the survival of the Resistance wasn't at stake at that very moment; as soon as Kylo offers her to rule the galaxy together it's all over. Rey is just not the sort of person who'd strategise and think, well I can agree now and sway him later, her reactions tend to be instant and come from the gut and heart rather than head. Which is why BTW it feels like total BS when in the novelisation Rey wakes up in the throne room and all of a sudden turns into a serene and detached Jedi.

I think that the scene could have had more nuance if it made Rey's choice about personal vs. greater good; like for instance if the movie made it clear that Rey believed that her personal future happiness was interlinked with Kylo's future. Then there'd be a tragic sense of her giving up something for the greater cause. But it obscures her motivations and just how deeply her personal investment in Kylo went is left ambiguous.
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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by motherofpearl1 on Fri 01 Jun 2018, 10:43 am

100% agreement there. But...I think that with IX we might get the 'shades of grey' Rey we had in TFA. Off topic...
but I saw some comments about TLJ on another site that left me speechless. Comments like 'terrible movie' I'm used to, but they not only said awful things about Daisy and Adam's acting, they accusef anyone who liked it as being 'lobotomised' and sais LF should apologise to true fans. True fans - who the **** do these idiots think they are?
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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by ZioRen on Fri 01 Jun 2018, 10:48 am

@SoloSideCousin wrote:

I don't think it would be more toxic, or the people talking toxicity would look inane, because in the end, great characterization is the best defense. Lando does all kinds of morally questionable s***, so does Cassian, so does Q'ira, and I am sure that there are people complaining about them, but in the end, these complainers don't have a leg to stand on, because these are good characterizations.

Finn is complete milquetoast now, and tons of people are indifferent to him. Poe is like a walking oxymoron. He acts terribly, but we're being told we're supposed to like him and think he's a hero.

Rey is better than those two, but her foundation is still much weaker than it should have been. They could have made her idealistic, but also more complicated.  The Solo version of Han is incredibly idealistic. He's also a criminal and shoots first. Enfys Nest is partially responsible for the deaths of likeable characters and yet she is idealistic as anything.  They had a chance to some really amazing stuff with Rey that would have made her an incredibly memorable character, but despite her being the first female hero, people are going to walk away from the ST remembering Kylo/Ben before anyone else, unless something radically changes in IX, and I doubt it will.

People can make a big show about representation, but if those actors get safe, cookie-cutter, unmemorable writing for their characters, that becomes its own form of bias. Kylo/Ben has been written in a beautiful, gutsy way. As a woman, I would have like them to have applied the same sense risk-taking and originality to Rey.
@SoloSideCousin

Agreed with pretty much all of this. It's why I roll my eyes at people trying to bully others into thinking Rey is as good a character as Kylo or that I need to care about her equally or I'm "problematic". Why should I, when there were so few risks in her writing to make her compelling? I wanted to love Rey (and it's not as if I dislike her, not at all, I just only find her interesting in relation to Kylo thus far, sad as that is), and Finn was the first character I connected with in TFA yet they've done him pretty dirty writing-wise trying to hamfist his development so they don't have to spend actual screentime on it or do something compelling with the interesting backstory they gave him.

I won't lie, I think Kylo is the only character that justifies the ST's existence at this point. It says something that despite that, it's enough to keep me interested and talking about it and looking forward to IX!
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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by Night Huntress on Fri 01 Jun 2018, 10:55 am

@motherofpearl1 wrote:100% agreement there. But...I think that with IX we might get the 'shades of grey' Rey we had in TFA. Off topic...
but I saw some comments about TLJ on another site that left me speechless. Comments like 'terrible movie' I'm used to, but they not only said awful things about Daisy and Adam's acting, they accusef anyone who liked it as being 'lobotomised' and sais LF should apologise to true fans. True fans - who the **** do these idiots think they are?
@motherofpearl1

what??? Not to sh** on the OT or the prequels- but had they paid attention to the acting in those??? scratch
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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by motherofpearl1 on Fri 01 Jun 2018, 11:40 am

Believe it or not they are praising them!
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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by snufkin on Fri 01 Jun 2018, 11:48 am

I've been waiting for Lessons from the Screenplay to tackle TLJ and like always, he does a great job of explaining how the characters are structured within the larger story being told. I think for Finn, part of the problem is that he was envisioned originally as a sidekick for Rey. The fact that they looked at Jesse Plemons as one of the main candidates is telling, as he became well known for playing the comic relief (very funny) best friend character, Landry, in Friday Night Lights. It feels like at some point they decided to give Finn more to do than just being Rey's best friend and have him be a lead. Except that the writing hasn't ever shown beyond the opening scene in the village, what exactly his crisis is. Is it that he simply wants no part of this war (after an entire lifetime of brainwashing and training) for the sake of self-preservation or conscience? The comparison with ESB is a good one because they very clearly show that while Han is in danger because of the bounty on his head, he's had very specific reasons of his friendships and falling in love with Leia, to extend his stay with the Rebels. And his whole arc in that story is the question of what type of person he is, hence Leia's line about him not being a good man before he kisses her. The point is to show that despite outward appearances of being a scoundrel, he's a good man who will put himself on the line and sacrifice himself to protect the people he loves. That's part of the dynamic he has with the outwardly suave and more respectable Lando, who when also put to the test reveals himself to be somebody who tries to take care of the people under his leadership (hence trying to make a deal with Vader) and then openly rebelling in order to try to protect/save his allies and the citizens of Cloud City. Which you just really don't get anything as well defined/written here for either Finn or Poe and instead whatever goodwill those characters have comes more from the charisma of the people playing them. Which is a shame because the whole 3rd act of Bespin isn't that long but is the culmination of all the character arcs and thematic threads coming together:

-- Characters put to the test and being forced to reveal their true natures/desires.
-- Self sacrifice to protect ones friends and people we love
-- All three plots, the Love Story plot, the Force Plot, the criminal underworld plot all converge together
-- Franchise emerges as at its heart being a family epic/tragedy
-- Game changing revelations such as I am your father, Leia admits that she returns Hans feelings for her and has her first overt moment of using her Force powers, I am a good man, Lando chooses a side and allies with the Rebels versus being a smooth operator

All of the above happens in one setting and in a compact third act. Versus TLJ, where we have Crait after the Throne Room. Which feels more like an anti-climax/coda.
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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by californiagirl on Fri 01 Jun 2018, 12:34 pm

Regarding Rey and her characterization, yes it would be nice if she was more clearly presented as conflicted (I believe the junior novel claimed she was tempted by Kylo's offer). Whereas in the actual movie, it's vague enough, even if she's upset and crying in the throne room, what she actually thinks of Kylo or what he means to her (I still think what she saw in her vision was not the throne room scene). We the viewer are not privy to those thoughts, to an almost eye-rolling degree.

Kylo is written better than Rey (and actually all the other characters in SW), but he's the exception, not the rule. Yeah, there's kind of a double standard going on here. Kylo is the one who is supposed to keep the audience guessing, but heaven forbid if Rey does anything that questionable, and so we don't get more than hints of that. I'm not here to justify the creative decisions as relates to Rey, more to emphasize why Rian & Co. made her the way they did.

TLJ in particular has been noted for its several plot lines lines in which the women are right (Holdo, Leia, Rose, and by extension Rey, even if she isn't entirely right), while the men are the ones with issues (Luke, Poe, Finn, and Kylo, we could even throw in Snoke and Hux if we wanted to), and that's clearly the narrative LF wants to go with. So they downplay Rey's conflict or anything that would make her less than a positive glowing Rey-of-Light beacon of hope and goodness. It's not great for the character, but here we all are.

My earlier point was more that LF wants to keep criticism away from Rey, so high up on the pedestal is she, and if she came off more questionably to the audience, she would get more negative press than Kylo, even if it made her characterization better. The double standard is real, there is so much weird puritanism applied to Rey, even when it's done with the intention of "empowering" her. It stems from the same old "Rey good guy, Kylo bad guy" mentality that still hasn't been broken. That's other viewers' loss, if not ours.


Last edited by californiagirl on Fri 01 Jun 2018, 3:35 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by Kylo Rey on Fri 01 Jun 2018, 2:15 pm

Ok but I was the only one shaking my head constantly and saying 'no Kylo' under my breath watching TLJ for the first time from the aftermath of the throne room scene till the end of the movie? It was downright painful to see him spiral back into the darkness and watch him make awful decision after awful decision. Guy just keeps self-sabotaging himself. I don't think you need to be a Reylo or even a Kylo fan to find his final scene extremely poignant. Watching everything you wanted slip through your fingers due to your self-destructive behaviour is incredibly human and relatable.
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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by snufkin on Fri 01 Jun 2018, 3:50 pm

Oh his whole freak out and meltdown was painful to watch. Like I can understand the arguments that everything that happened in the Throne Room was because Rey was being too impulsive and reckless. But the entire Crait sequence was like the most awkward family dinner where one member shows up uninvited and has a complete and total meltdown. So it's painful to watch, if him not seizing power was the only feasible way to survive that situation after what he did to Snoke (though he's f**ked up royally telling Hux that Rey did it, like that's going to majorly bite him on the a** in IX).

As for Rey, I ran across this recent quote from the NY Times about why society looks down its nose at romance novels and other female centric type of stories.



Which sure does sound an awful lot like the comments made about her, even from fans who supposedly like her. The problem some fans have with her, which include a lot of female fans, is this weird expectation that's evolved over the past 20 years that SW is a Boy's Club (the films themselves have been a Boy's Club in doing such a sh*tty job of just showing a world like ours where women make up 50-52% of the population and being real to our experiences). So even with a lot of female fans, they seem to have this internalized (misogynistic IMO) expectation that Rey has to conform to the Boy's Club. That her story is just a gender flipped version of Luke's by the numbers Hero's Journey, which it isn't at all.
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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by californiagirl on Fri 01 Jun 2018, 4:56 pm

@snufkin wrote:The problem some fans have with her, which include a lot of female fans, is this weird expectation that's evolved over the past 20 years that SW is a Boy's Club (the films themselves have been a Boy's Club in doing such a sh*tty job of just showing a world like ours where women make up 50-52% of the population and being real to our experiences). So even with a lot of female fans, they seem to have this internalized (misogynistic IMO) expectation that Rey has to conform to the Boy's Club. That her story is just a gender flipped version of Luke's by the numbers Hero's Journey, which it isn't at all.
@snufkin

I am wondering if this is the reason I have more patience for the way Rey has been handled than some others here. The ST wants to have its cake and eat it too regarding Rey. Give her these complicated emotions regarding her denial, her relationship to Kylo, how she can be a bit reckless and violent at times, but at the same time don't really emphasize or show it that much. There's always been this weird contrast between the character herself and the way she is portrayed, almost like the films and books don't do her justice because mystery box, and also people might freak out over Rey not being a perfect and happy little angel.

But the fact that she is a decidedly different character than Luke or Anakin, and has a fairly different arc than either of them, is a relief (plus the actress, script, and direction result in a better performance of said character than the other two in their original trilogies, but that's IMO). We did six movies of the protagonist fighting his darker impulses and either succeeding or failing at this. That's almost a non-issue with Rey, which allows her to be involved in different kinds of conflict. It's Kylo, still from the Skywalker line, who is the ultimate embodiment of the light v. dark conflict and that family's legacy. The BFG at the end of TLJ is annoying and misleading, but we know better, and I'm just glad they are doing SOMETHING new with this character, a direction that I think is fairly bold.
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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by Saracene on Fri 01 Jun 2018, 5:51 pm

@californiagirl I'm fine with the idea of Rey having a different arc from Anakin and Luke, I just think that her dynamic with Kylo is the only aspect of her character that feels like it's thought through and follows a clear trajectory, even if they choose to obscure her feelings in TLJ.

The other two threads in her journey are 1) her family and 2) her powers, and neither are executed very well IMO. I really wish TFA made her parentage clear and just ended that thread there with Rey making a decision to leave Jakku. Then TLJ could just concentrate on Rey dealing with her newly discovered powers and what they mean for her future, like it seems to at the beginning when she explains her reasons for coming to Anch-To to Luke. But because Rian was obligated to deal with Rey's parentage, we kinda ended up with a setup that had no resolution (Rey is scared of her powers... which goes nowhere), and resolution that had no proper setup (Rey's parents were nobodies... except that she never cared whether they were important or not).
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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by californiagirl on Fri 01 Jun 2018, 8:07 pm

@Saracene I put most of this down to all the mystery boxing both JJ and Rian are doing. Her ability to use her powers is at the very least heavily influenced by the interrogation scene download, but most of the audience doesn't know that, and most of it is internal, so we don't see it. That, and more openly accepting the truth or her parents and moving on from it (since a chunk of the audience doesn't buy it), is probably some dramatic reveal for IX.

The Rey's parents are no one angle was approached as an inversion of Luke's journey, though I don't know if it was Rian who wanted to emphasize that, or if JJ originated the concept. It's not even so much about if Rey cares who they were specifically, but that they at least cared about her and wanted to come back for her or find her. It's the fact they sold her off that is the more impactful part of this, since Rey had spent her whole life until TFA waiting for them, and even afterwards was insisting that her parents didn't throw her away, and then asked the dark side cave to show them to her. She is still fixated on the parents thing so much, just like the audience, and has to wait or fail over and over and have Kylo shove the truth in her face before she is forced to move on with her life.

I have a strong feeling that Reylo was the premise the whole trilogy was founded upon, so it was the better-thought out story. The other parts just came with it. It's the Skywalker saga, so the story will inevitably revolve around them.
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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by Kylo Rey on Fri 01 Jun 2018, 8:35 pm

Btw @californiagirl, Lindsay Ellis' Star Wars video is up. Currently unlisted on YouTube, so here's the link:



It's about The First Order and Fascism. The bit on Kylo wasn't as bad as I thought it was going to be. While she says that he's a 'fascist figurehead' as new leader of TFO, she points out that he doesn't really have a discernible political ideology, and also frames him as the 'bad boyfriend'/acknowledges his sexualisation within the narrative/Rey wanting to save him. Also that his lack of ideology is what might redeem him in the end. Although I'm a bit more blah on some of the other things (disdain for women when correlating with that list, ugh) and I'm always iffy on applying real world parallels onto a mythological fantasy space opera.

What that video really hammered home for me is why I have so much trouble with people who see him as a fascist as opposed to TFO/Hux where those comparisons are way more valid. His motivations in joining the TFO itself are very personal (not political) and rooted in pain/trauma/spite/betrayal. Doesn't really particularly care about perpetuating a cult of heroism etc. I guess the video is worth a watch. Her thoughts on him seem to be... complicated.

As Supreme Leader in IX, it's also got me wondering how JJ will handle him as a ruler.
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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by californiagirl on Fri 01 Jun 2018, 9:59 pm

@Kylo Rey wrote:Btw @californiagirl, Lindsay Ellis' Star Wars video is up. Currently unlisted on YouTube, so here's the link:



It's about The First Order and Fascism. The bit on Kylo wasn't as bad as I thought it was going to be. While she says that he's a 'fascist figurehead' as new leader of TFO, she points out that he doesn't really have a discernible political ideology, and also frames him as the 'bad boyfriend'/acknowledges his sexualisation within the narrative/Rey wanting to save him. Also that his lack of ideology is what might redeem him in the end. Although I'm a bit more blah on some of the other things (disdain for women when correlating with that list, ugh) and I'm always iffy on applying real world parallels onto a mythological fantasy space opera.

What that video really hammered home for me is why I have so much trouble with people who see him as a fascist as opposed to TFO/Hux where those comparisons are way more valid. His motivations in joining the TFO itself are very personal (not political) and rooted in pain/trauma/spite/betrayal. Doesn't really particularly care about perpetuating a cult of heroism etc. I guess the video is worth a watch. Her thoughts on him seem to be... complicated.

As Supreme Leader in IX, it's also got me wondering how JJ will handle him as a ruler.
@Kylo Rey

Thanks! Yeah, hasn't even shown up in my YT subscriptions feed yet.

I'm glad she didn't go full 100% Kylo-hate (only 65%), and doesn't appear to have some set direction she wants him to go in, even if she mocks him a little. She had some kneejerk reactions when she saw TLJ and wasn't in the best place. Based on the fact she backed off the SW hot takes pretty quickly after, and seemed to be doing Kylo-related things with Jenny, she seemed to be at least trying to listen to other views. I expected a video like this eventually, it's right up her alley. I'm glad she read Bloodline, certainly the most political book of the new SW canon.

And I remember when she made that Disney World trip and thought the March of the First Order was pretty cool, even if it was a bunch of fascists. It's an idea worth exploring anyway, since the Empire and FO are both directly lifted from the Nazis. The point we have over here, which she seems to realize, is that Kylo isn't, and never really was, one of them. He was just kind of disturbingly dependent on Snoke, and has this weird Vader-family legacy thing going on, and then had no clue what to do afterwards, and wants to start some new thing that is not the FO, and hasn't figured out this isn't really the way to accomplish it. He's weirdly nihilistic and idealistic at the same time. He'll figure it out. And it doesn't seem Lindsay will have a total meltdown when it happens. That was my main concern Smile
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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by motherofpearl1 on Sat 02 Jun 2018, 12:21 am

The last thing I see Kylo as is a fascist...

He comes across, crazy though it seems, as his own kind of idealist, someone who thinks he can make a change for the good through creating a better world than the old one. And he has a weird kind of point. The Empire was corrupt and ruthless, the New Republic weak and ineffective. His reaction to the destruction of Hosnia showed that this was not what he envisioned when he joined the FO. His meltdown is typical manifestation of mental illness, especially that of an abuse victim (I watch a lot of Special Victims Unit episodes, forgive me.) Everything he did post throne room screamed 'hurt' to me. His uncle betrayed him, in his eyes Rey did the same. The poster who mentioned how a lot of people were annoyed over the women always being 'right'... I actually find them as guilty of making mistakes as the men. Rey acts in extremes. Rose was wrong in tasering anyone who wanted to jump ship - they were scared, understandable. Leia was a bad mother. And for me Holdo's mistake was when Poe practically begged her to tell him her plan -his most sympathetic scene was when he pleaded 'give us hope.' Instead she chose to stay tight lipped and pull rank when things had progressed way beyond that. Everyone made errors in this film. It's what I liked about it, and sadly what the so called 'uber fans' didn't.
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TLJ comic Adaptation Reylo content- #2 of 6

Post by DeeBee on Sat 02 Jun 2018, 9:25 pm

Hi all! reporting with an update on the content in TLJ novelisation directly related to reylo in the issue 2 of 6.
This issue opens with the FO attacking the resistance, with Kylo in his (Reylo) ship.. and finishes with the end of Luke's first force lesson with Rey.
A few little surprises not related to Reylo that I'll share in other threads.  
Here is the content directly related to reylo..[A word of caution - don't worry that Kylo's face is drawn in such a non-sympathetic way.. this is the case with lots of characters and not limited to Kylo] We get to see their first force bond scene as follows:







A few random thoughts:
- The depiction of their connection in a similar way to the Prime Jedi mosaic is super interesting!
- Interesting Kylo/Ben can sense Luke is close to Rey - we wondered how he guessed it was Luke she had looked over at.
- I like how we get to see the other from the other's POV. - we see Rey surrounded by the FO room - as Kylo/Ben would have seen her. and vice versa. very cool.
That's it really from this issue. Thoughts anyone?

The next issue is released 6 June, 2018 - if anyone else feels like sharing the Reylo content in this issue feel free to - or I will share it when I get to read it.. bye!
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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by motherofpearl1 on Sun 03 Jun 2018, 12:16 am

So far, so good, although I think the art could be better. I like how they're going into more detail dialogue wise, like the novel. This is a good adaptation.
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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by Lily Snape on Sun 03 Jun 2018, 3:02 am

@SoloSideCousin

Gah, this is such a difficult topic, but I know what you mean. I remember when I was a grad student, having a conversation with an undergrad (one of my students) about this. He was Latino, and somehow we got on the topic of stereotypes of Latinos in films and literature. Basically, this guy had dealt with so many stereotypes (the criminal, the gang member, the Latin lover...this was a while ago) that a Latinx actor playing anything other than a straight-up generic hero was really going to tick him off. And I got it. I’m Irish, an immigrant to the US, and stereotypes of my people annoy me. If it’s English people putting the stereotypes out there, I really bristle—because yep, I’ve been asked just a few years ago by an English woman whether I’m “good Irish” or “bad Irish.” (For the record—I’m “bad Irish” according to this person’s worldview, because Northern Ireland Catholic = IRA = IRA bombings around England back when I was a kid and young adult. It took everything in me not to make up some nonsense about having the makings of a Molotov cocktail in my minivan along with the stroller and the diaper bag. Bad Irish, right? That’s how we roll. Anyway....). I remember reading Sherlock Holmes in junior high and thinking that Conan Doyle was ahead of his time in that although the Big Bad had an Irish name (Moriarty), at least he was brilliant instead of some kind of stereotypical garrulous, drunken, belligerent, dim-witted Paddy.

I remember telling my student that I hoped things would some day get to the point where he could enjoy a complex, interesting Latino villain with motivations as a believable human character, not as some kind of stereotype. A complex, interesting villain whose culture is just part of his backstory. I could say the same for the heroes and other non-villainous characters— complex, interesting, imperfect. I think Black Panther just did that, which is probably part of its success. Maybe a black director can do that with his black characters, but a white guy like Rian Johnson making a major blockbuster is going to tread lightly with women and people of color? — going back to Black Panther, Ryan Coogler is a black MAN, and he’s a lot more cautious with his female characters than his male characters, I thought. The women are all pretty flawless and likable.

Another thought, which has nothing to do with race or gender: maybe Finn is just a confused kid who panicked and fled a couple of days ago and hasn’t had time to figure out what the heck he’s doing, never mind what he believes in, but who is going to stick to his friend like glue. Kylo has had six years in his current role—he’s far from the frightened boy in the Jedi academy hut. Finn is still the frightened boy, but although he’s been trained for war all his life, at least no one has been inside his head, poisoning his mind and drawing his soul to darkness since before he was born.

Just random thoughts. We live in interesting times.
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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by Kylo Rey on Sun 03 Jun 2018, 6:58 pm

I don't think this interview has been posted before. Came up in the suggestions when I clicked on the WGA Kasdans + RJ talk. From 18 Dec.

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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by rey09 on Sun 03 Jun 2018, 8:31 pm

@DeeBee wrote:Hi all! reporting with an update on the content in TLJ novelisation directly related to reylo in the issue 2 of 6.
This issue opens with the FO attacking the resistance, with Kylo in his (Reylo) ship.. and finishes with the end of Luke's first force lesson with Rey.
A few little surprises not related to Reylo that I'll share in other threads.  
Here is the content directly related to reylo..[A word of caution - don't worry that Kylo's face is drawn in such a non-sympathetic way.. this is the case with lots of characters and not limited to Kylo] We get to see their first force bond scene as follows:

- I like how we get to see the other from the other's POV. - we see Rey surrounded by the FO room - as Kylo/Ben would have seen her. and vice versa. very cool.
That's it really from this issue. Thoughts anyone?

The next issue is released 6 June, 2018 - if anyone else feels like sharing the Reylo content in this issue feel free to - or I will share it when I get to read it.. bye!
@DeeBee

Thanks! And I agree I love how they show that. I hope JJ gives us more force bond scenes like that. Wild thought but it'd be cool if they had the background a mesh of both their environments to show how they are occupying a weird place in time and space.
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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by DeeBee on Sun 03 Jun 2018, 8:55 pm

@rey09 wrote:
@DeeBee wrote:Hi all! reporting with an update on the content in TLJ novelisation directly related to reylo in the issue 2 of 6.
This issue opens with the FO attacking the resistance, with Kylo in his (Reylo) ship.. and finishes with the end of Luke's first force lesson with Rey.
A few little surprises not related to Reylo that I'll share in other threads.  
Here is the content directly related to reylo..[A word of caution - don't worry that Kylo's face is drawn in such a non-sympathetic way.. this is the case with lots of characters and not limited to Kylo] We get to see their first force bond scene as follows:

- I like how we get to see the other from the other's POV. - we see Rey surrounded by the FO room - as Kylo/Ben would have seen her. and vice versa. very cool.
That's it really from this issue. Thoughts anyone?

The next issue is released 6 June, 2018 - if anyone else feels like sharing the Reylo content in this issue feel free to - or I will share it when I get to read it.. bye!
@DeeBee

Thanks! And I agree I love how they show that. I hope JJ gives us more force bond scenes like that. Wild thought but it'd be cool if they had the background a mesh of both their environments to show how they are occupying a weird place in time and space.
@rey09

You're welcome!
Yeah I could see something like this - if in IX the force bond continues to strengthen.. it may be that their environments meld into the other's more.. I've been thinking lately about the Force Bond in IX and where it could be headed...

edited to add:
I meant to add - it's interesting the comic switched the order of events in this force bond moment..
in TLJ Rey shoots first.. then Kylo tries his little 'you will bring me skywalker' move that she resists..
This is very curious. I preferred when Rey shot first haaaaa.


Last edited by DeeBee on Sun 03 Jun 2018, 8:57 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : added comment)
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