The Last Jedi General Discussion

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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by Armadeus on Mon 10 Sep 2018, 2:52 am

@motherofpearl1 wrote:TBH,  I actually felt sorry for Poe when he begged Holdo to give him and the Resistance some hope - her remaining tight lipped was what led to his ill fated mutiny. I'm still puzzled why she never told him her plans. For all his faults Poe was devoted to the Resistance and completely trustworthy. I also disliked her rather insulting dismissal of Finn and Rose.
@motherofpearl1

With regards to Holdo's recalcitrance I can't help but wonder if Johnson had been reading James Clavell's translation of Sun Tzu's The Art of War. In it we find this anecdote of General P'ei Hsing-chien (A.D. 619 - 682), who was sent on an expedition against Turkic tribes:

At nightfall P'ei Hsing-chien pitched his camp as usual, and it had already been completely fortified by wall and ditch when suddenly he gave orders that the army should shift its quarters to a hill nearby. This was highly displeasing to his officers, who protested loudly against the extra fatigue that it would entail on the men. P'ei Hsing-chien, however, paid no heed to their remonstrances and had the camp moved as quickly as possible. The same night, a terrific storm came on, which flooded their former place of encampment to the depth of over twelve feet. The recalcitrant officers were amazed at the sight, and owned that they had been in the wrong.

'How did you know what was going to happen?' they asked.

P'ei Hsing-chien replied: 'From this time forward be content to obey orders without asking unnecessary questions.'
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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by motherofpearl1 on Mon 10 Sep 2018, 9:34 am

And there's the rub. Because, if said leader knows what they're doing, well and good. But what if instead they have the 'skills' of the British officers during WW1? There was a very good reason Allied troops were referred to as 'lions led by donkeys.'
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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by Armadeus on Mon 10 Sep 2018, 8:24 pm

@motherofpearl1 wrote:And there's the rub. Because, if said leader knows what they're doing, well and good. But what if instead they have the 'skills' of the British officers during WW1? There was a very good reason Allied troops were referred to as 'lions led by donkeys.'
@motherofpearl1

Fair point... and in all honesty I understand Poe's actions; in his head he's still a commander and Holdo's style of leadership is so drastically different from Leia's that it would have been difficult for him to adjust even under less strenuous circumstances.
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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by MrsWindu on Wed 12 Sep 2018, 7:39 am

The was a minor discussion of this part of the scene with Kylo in his TIE when TLJ released. Rian has cleared it up.

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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by Starliteprism on Wed 12 Sep 2018, 8:51 am

@MrsWindu wrote:The was a minor discussion of this part of the scene with Kylo in his TIE when TLJ released. Rian has cleared it up.

@MrsWindu

Attempted a follow-up question to that, in hope of a response. *fingers crossed*
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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by IoJovi on Wed 12 Sep 2018, 11:35 am

It looked to me like he shoots at the Tie but misses. Then again if he did, Hux would probably have noticed that.
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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by AhsokaTano on Wed 12 Sep 2018, 12:22 pm

Hi all gonna post this here as well as comics thread :
New Rey and Kylo dialogue from the TLJ adaptation
https://www.reddit.com/r/StarWarsCantina/comments/9f7q7t/new_rey_and_kylo_dialogue_from_the_tlj_adaptation/?st=JLZESXN6&sh=3140e7dc
This is what has instigated debate :

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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by ISeeAnIsland on Wed 12 Sep 2018, 12:43 pm

@AhsokaTano wrote:Hi all gonna post this here as well as comics thread :
New Rey and Kylo dialogue from the TLJ adaptation
https://www.reddit.com/r/StarWarsCantina/comments/9f7q7t/new_rey_and_kylo_dialogue_from_the_tlj_adaptation/?st=JLZESXN6&sh=3140e7dc
This is what has instigated debate :

@AhsokaTano

That Kylo sure looks a long angrier/more aggressive than what we saw onscreen at the end of TLJ with those broken puppy eyes.

And before anyone here gets worried, remember that as far as canon goes, the movie is canon above everything else.
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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by AhsokaTano on Wed 12 Sep 2018, 12:55 pm

@ISeeAnIsland
Yeah like you am personally not worried ( especially not after Jason Fry interview earlier this week ).In fact I kind of interpreted those lines to be yep you’re darn right this isn’t over because they are destined to be together lol! cheers They’ve hidden kylo’s face in shadow to to be ambiguous but am sorry we reylos see through this . We know what’s really going on .... Razz
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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by kroi on Wed 12 Sep 2018, 2:22 pm

Yeah, I think it's been said this is just Gary's interpretation; RJ's trumps it. I think Gary also made Luke more of a POV throughout as well?
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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by Starliteprism on Wed 12 Sep 2018, 2:57 pm

@AhsokaTano wrote:@ISeeAnIsland
Yeah like you am personally not worried ( especially not after Jason Fry interview earlier this week ).In fact I kind of interpreted those lines to be yep you’re darn right this isn’t over because they are destined to be together lol! cheers They’ve hidden kylo’s face in shadow to to be ambiguous but am sorry we reylos see through this . We know what’s really going on .... Razz
@AhsokaTano

I just like the fact that they are still connected and chatting with one another.
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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by LadyGaufrette on Wed 12 Sep 2018, 5:50 pm

When I saw this page, Rey's answer reminded me of the "you're so right" scene of Kylo in TFA. Now I read it with Kylo's tone.


Maybe it's a parallel bewteen Rey and Ben and they want to remind us of the scene in TFA because it evoked Ben's family.
(I know I'm grasping at straw and Occam's razor says it's more likely the author misunderstood this moment, but I like to dream.)
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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by motherofpearl1 on Thu 13 Sep 2018, 12:51 am

I've recently been binge watching box sets of 'Once Upon A Time' and it's amazing how many apparently 'irredeemable' characters in that have ultimately found their redemption - and they've done far worse than Kylo!
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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by Kylo Rey on Fri 12 Oct 2018, 10:21 am

So yesterday I was reading discussion/analysis on a PTA film I had watched recently, and someone posted a link to a review from www.reverseshot.org, which reminded me that it was the source of that fantastic TLJ review, and after finishing the review I was reading, I got sidetracked into rereading the TLJ one again. Really one of my favourite reviews. If IX goes as predicted in this corner of fandom, the reviewer will absolutely adore it. Been posted here before, but posting it again because it's great:

“It’s time to let old things die.”

Yes it is, I thought.

Adam Driver’s Kylo Ren says this to Daisy Ridley’s Rey at the turning point of Star Wars: The Last Jedi, in an attempt to coax her away from saving her friends and the rebellion—“Kill it, if you have to”—and toward starting over, with him.

Please, yes. Let it all die. Let the black-haired, pouty, linebacker-breasted fallen angel join hands with Jedi Sporty Spice and start a new world. Let them veer into some weird and gloriously unpopular galactic side road. Let Princess Leia go, before we have to watch another ghastly ghoulish CGI exhumation. Let Luke Skywalker go back to yellow-haired representations on moth-eaten Sears twin-sized sheets. Let Chewbacca go back to his family and Art Carney. Let no more billion-dollar trilogies of nostalgia choke out another generation’s attempts at new culture. Let the rebellion go, let the Empire—or the First Order, or whatever—go, let the Force and the Hero’s Journey and the old world and the old religion and the old serials and the whole gangrenous Hollywood system go, and just let these two fine young humans—or aliens, or whatever—make sweet love upon the firmament and give birth to new stars on the face of the deep. Yes, yes, yes, ’tistime.

Rey declines, and the moment passes. The most compelling sequence of the film follows, set on the salt-covered planet of Crait, with three story threads coming together and culminating in a bracing riposte to Kylo’s entreaty. “See you around, kid,” old-thing Luke says to him, triumphantly channeling Humphrey Bogart via Ren’s vanquished father, Han Solo, quickly confirming that old things don’t ever really die, they hang around as memory and sentimentality, invocation and documentation, bad smells and madeleines, haunting our dreams, stabbing at your conscience, and forging afterlives among, between, and despite intellectual properties. Yet Ren’s proposal still hangs in the air as the defining moment of the film, and of this third Star Wars trilogy to date. Having these young protagonists enact ambivalence about their inheritance rhymes with a filmmaking enterprise wrestling with the same.

During those brief moments of Driver and Ridley moodily contemplating dyadic bliss and reboot-by-booty-call—their first reunion since they clashed sabers and felled trees with ravenous abandon at the end of The Force Awakens—

Yet it’s not just Luke that Rey has to outshine, it’s also Kylo, her fellow conflicted Jedi, and that proves to be a far taller order. The lost, conflicted, ill-behaved, angry young man tends to win our attention, if not always the day. Same as it ever was.

Kylo Ren is just the latest in a long line of sympathetic villains that stretches back to the earliest recorded tales. But the miserable, suffering, infinitely despairing Kylo is especially, perhaps deliberately redolent of Milton’s Lucifer. His emotions and motivations are both human and inscrutable, selfish and self-destructive. Driver plays him as a tantrum-throwing overgrown child, yet also as a savvy logician, out to both prove and liberate himself, descend into the void and remake it in his own wounded image. Much as George Lucas cast the unproven Hamill to face off against a cool black mask voiced by the legendarily piped James Earl Jones, Abrams cast the unproven Ridley to dance with rocketing A-lister Driver, who’s maxing out the boom mics, blowtorching the scenery, and stealing every second he’s onscreen. We know we should strive to be the hero, but we can’t help but feel for the devil. And to respect his logic. “Let the past die,” he tells Rey. “That's the only way to become what you are meant to be.” Who among us from broken homes, or even a period during which we experienced conflict with or rupture from our families, hasn’t felt this and madecrucial decisions and realizations according to such logic? There may be a greater and healthier right, but Kylo isn’t entirely wrong, and not just about the hoary Star Wars franchise.

Kylo is both Lucifer and Adam, father of a potential new world reaching out to his chosen Eve. Where Eve is the temptress in Milton, and of course in Genesis, here she’s the one to reject temptation, with Rey denying Kylo’s hand and their fruit—a contested lightsaber, sword of knowledge—broken in half. She’s rejecting his companionship, his sexual advances (if I may be permitted to claim, despite how repressively chaste these films have become), but seemingly only because they’re on his nihilistic/romantic terms. Her response isn’t to scoff but to spiritedly appeal to his conflicted conscience, which he’d just revealed in a preceding moment by violently saving, rather than taking, Rey’s life. Since he made the first move, maybe he’d be willing to go all the way…

...Nor does it mean I am required to stop fantasizing about what that other story would have entailed, the one in which Rey lets it all burn and the two Jedis skulk out into the galaxy raising hell and crossing sabers.

http://www.reverseshot.org/reviews/entry/2403/star_wars_last_jedi
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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by motherofpearl1 on Fri 12 Oct 2018, 12:15 pm

It's weird but I don't see Kylo as a villain. What he is, is far less easily described.
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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by californiagirl on Fri 12 Oct 2018, 12:23 pm

@Kylo Rey Dude, forgot all about this one! Certainly one of the best commentaries to come out of the immediate TLJ rush. It was around the same time as the various articles that emphasized the sexy nature of the movie.

@motherofpearl1 By the end of the saga, he'll end up the hero. Unfortunately, I've seen many people who think of Kylo as a terrible person and have no sympathy for him. I trust IX to deliver the goods though.
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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by ISeeAnIsland on Fri 12 Oct 2018, 2:00 pm

Ah yes, the wonderful review that coined the phrase "Jedi Sporty Spice". Laughing
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Re: The Last Jedi General Discussion

Post by snufkin on Sat 13 Oct 2018, 5:38 pm

@Kylo Rey Aw yeah, that's Eric Hynes, he's a curator for the Museum of the Moving Image in New York. He's written two of the best, clear-headed reviews of the Sequel Trilogy film which notices and understands that there's more going on here than good guy versus bad guy. His TFA review is one of the few which actually understood what was happening in their scenes together

Ridley’s Rey proves more charismatic and less bratty than Mark Hamill’s Skywalker in the working class wunderkind slot, which is another instance of strategically starting things off at an advanced stage of audience sympathy. Having us warm to Rey over the course of the film, as we did to the disaffected teen-cum-warrior Luke, would be too risky. The cost is that Ridley at first comes off as something of a blank slate—physically proficient, familiarly attractive, comfortingly British. (This might be Abrams’s savviest sleight of hand: making the placing of a female character at the center of this new trilogy seem banal, even expected.) But she shows something else in her two scenes with Driver, who, in a career-defining pivot, brings his A-game to a dress-up pageant (taking a cue from Alex Guinness’s sincerity of purpose in the original). First up is a who’s-zooming-who Force-off while Rey’s strapped to a torture device—the second such scene, following the Force-less Poe coughing up intel to the masked one under duress, both of which echo Vader’s dubious probing of Leia in the original. Quite easily once asked, Kylo removes his mask to expose flowing locks and liquefied eyes, and tries to use the Force to get Rey to reveal the big secret—the missing section of a map that will lead to Skywalker’s whereabouts (not joking)—but she resists. Abrams lets the scene play a bit, lets them share the frame (a rarity in a film that favors shot/reverse shot interplay) as they grunt and seethe and play tug of war with each other’s inner thoughts. There’s a queasy sexual chemistry between the strapped-down heroine and the handsome, Gargamel-cloaked villain, which seems to arise not from a plot imperative but from the electricity passed between two compelling people in proximity.

That chemistry is resumed during an epic lightsaber battle in the woods, the film’s most dramatically compacted scene as well as its most visually inspired. With a shocking (though not really) turn of events still fresh in our minds, and Finn at least temporarily toppled, Rey discovers her powers in time to spar with Kylo, resuming their battle of positive-negative spiritual forces and undulating sexual tension. They chase each other around the woods, niftily felling trees with their flaming weapons like slow motion warriors in a Zhang Yimou film, and again stare at each other, this time over crossed and crackling sabers, air-parrying undefined heat. It feels like something, and it also looks like something—in that it doesn’t mean to overtly resemble anything we’ve seen before in the franchise. Abrams had an idea here, or at least an out-of-bounds reference, and it shows.

Also a big f**king Plus One to his "the franchise became repressively chaste during the PT era" line because that's been a running theme in online discussions, especially in spaces populated by fans who came of age during the PT era. I think it's not a coincidence that at least here in the States, the PT unfolded and found its audience during the rise of Abstinece Education and Purity Culture. Anakin and Padme easily could have been any of the kids at my secondary school who thanks to the churches they went to, were eager to get married at an early age because it was the only outlet for teenage hormones and socially sanctioned sex. And that attitude sure does show up in comments about how Rey should be a strong single lady who doesn't need a man.
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