Discussion: Last Shot - A Han and Lando Novel by Daniel José Older

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Re: Discussion: Last Shot - A Han and Lando Novel by Daniel José Older

Post by rawpowah on Wed 18 Apr 2018, 3:18 am

Is it normal for a child that age to cry so much? It seems like Ben is crying in every appearance he makes.
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Re: Discussion: Last Shot - A Han and Lando Novel by Daniel José Older

Post by Cowgirlsamurai on Wed 18 Apr 2018, 7:39 am

@rawpowah wrote:Is it normal for a child that age to cry so much? It seems like Ben is crying in every appearance he makes.
@rawpowah

Sorry, I haven’t started reading yet, but in my experience, some 2-3 year olds cry A LOT. Might have something to do with how verbal they are, or aren’t, at that stage. Poor Ben might have other issues though, like a certain evil presence lurking? Or perhaps even attachment problems since it sounds like he’s left with droids on occasion.
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Re: Discussion: Last Shot - A Han and Lando Novel by Daniel José Older

Post by whisperingwillow on Wed 18 Apr 2018, 9:49 am

@rawpowah wrote:Is it normal for a child that age to cry so much? It seems like Ben is crying in every appearance he makes.
@rawpowah

My three year old cries at everything it feels like. He tends to cry most when I say no though lol.
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Re: Discussion: Last Shot - A Han and Lando Novel by Daniel José Older

Post by Kylo Rey on Wed 18 Apr 2018, 12:28 pm

Saw an interesting post re: Ben being left in droid care



Not to mention that there could have been many times where Baby Ben could have been left with bruises and marks if the droid gripped him too tight etc. Not receiving enough human contact in the child's formative years can have incredibly damaging lifelong effects. A droid is in no way shape or form a suitable replacement for the warmth, intimacy, trust and care a mother provides. This is textbook child neglect, no ifs and buts. Then in the novelisations, we have the creepy interactions between Rey and Unkar Plutt and Snoke touching Ben to wipe away his tear and all the child molester subtext. So even when they were being touched, it wasn't in the right way. Obviously it's Disney so it will remain subtext, but this is just so heartbreaking. There is some HEAVY s*** being explored in Ben/Kylo's entire arc, and these themes (even if they might only be lightly touched on) is stuff I never would have expected to see in SW media. The implications are SO dark. This is just the beginning of Ben's life, before Snoke started rearing his ugly head and things must have started to get REALLY bad. A lot of people are like "Kylo had a privileged childhood, he was a spoilt brat, look how Rey and Finn turned out" etc but it's just proof that no matter your position/status in life, messed up things can still happen. I mean just look at tragic cases of child stars growing up in Hollywood and being exploited, driven to suicide, mental illnesses at an early age or even older celebrities. Money and fame doesn't mean everything, and in Ben's case, his bloodline and family legacy lead to him being especially vulnerable and exploited which might have not happened if he had grown up in a normal household without FS powers. The parallels between him and Rey's trauma and background are there, but it's not to show how one is better than the other or whatever, but rather how two broken people can overcome their pasts and find peace together.
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Re: Discussion: Last Shot - A Han and Lando Novel by Daniel José Older

Post by rawpowah on Thu 19 Apr 2018, 3:21 am

@Cowgirlsamurai @whisperingwillow Thank you. I was wondering as well if snoke had something to do with Ben's state. Especially since he also doesn't get to sleep a lot.
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Re: Discussion: Last Shot - A Han and Lando Novel by Daniel José Older

Post by SoloSideCousin on Thu 19 Apr 2018, 10:16 am

@rawpowah wrote:@Cowgirlsamurai @whisperingwillow Thank you. I was wondering as well if snoke had something to do with Ben's state. Especially since he also doesn't get to sleep a lot.
@rawpowah

I actually do think that they are making a point about his lack of sleep. Usually by 2, kids sleep. It's not like when they are infants. If he has not hardly slept in days, which the book kind of indicates (even if Han us exaggerating it seems really hard for Ben to fall asleep and to stay asleep it seems), there is something wrong there. I do think that is an indication of Snoke and/or an attachment problem.

Also, though I haven't finished it, he frequently cries when he is taken away or "disconnected" via Skype from people he loves. I think that the "skin hunger" and need for human attention that @Kylo Rey brings up is absolutely on point. I mean he gets left with a kitchen droid, with a rotary saw arm who is obsessed with making coffee and is going to feed him coffee before he gets possessed and attempts to kill Ben ... because the housekeeper/babysitter droid goes out (and doesn't think leaving him with a kitchen droid is a problem) ... and that happens because Han and Leia think it is fine to leave him with a droid instead of an actual living being.
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Re: Discussion: Last Shot - A Han and Lando Novel by Daniel José Older

Post by ISeeAnIsland on Thu 19 Apr 2018, 11:36 am

@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@rawpowah wrote:@Cowgirlsamurai @whisperingwillow Thank you. I was wondering as well if snoke had something to do with Ben's state. Especially since he also doesn't get to sleep a lot.
@rawpowah

I actually do think that they are making a point about his lack of sleep. Usually by 2, kids sleep. It's not like when they are infants. If he has not hardly slept in days, which the book kind of indicates (even if Han us exaggerating it seems really hard for Ben to fall asleep and to stay asleep it seems), there is something wrong there. I do think that is an indication of Snoke and/or an attachment problem.

Also, though I haven't finished it, he frequently cries when he is taken away or "disconnected" via Skype from people he loves. I think that the "skin hunger" and need for human attention that @Kylo Rey brings up is absolutely on point. I mean he gets left with a kitchen droid, with a rotary saw arm who is obsessed with making coffee and is going to feed him coffee before he gets possessed and attempts to kill Ben ... because the housekeeper/babysitter droid goes out (and doesn't think leaving him with a kitchen droid is a problem) ... and that happens because Han and Leia think it is fine to leave him with a droid instead of an actual living being.
@SoloSideCousin

Agreed. I think the sleep problems were pointed out in Empire's End, too, if I recall.

We were still having some sleep problems with my daughter at 2 (these never really eased up until we moved her out of the crib and into a toddler bed), where she could only fall asleep under very specific conditions, and I know that wasn't typical...so what they're describing for Ben sounds really extreme.

I have to say that as a parent, Han and Leia come off looking really bad with the way that they're constantly leaving Ben in these new canon novels. I've always needed to occasionally travel for work (we're talking 2-3 trips per year of 2-3 days at a time...so very light travel), and I've always had a hard time leaving her...I still have a hard time leaving her, and she's almost 6. I can't even fathom what Han and Leia do in these novels, even though it's made clear that they love Ben.
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Re: Discussion: Last Shot - A Han and Lando Novel by Daniel José Older

Post by ZioRen on Thu 19 Apr 2018, 12:01 pm

@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@rawpowah wrote:@Cowgirlsamurai @whisperingwillow Thank you. I was wondering as well if snoke had something to do with Ben's state. Especially since he also doesn't get to sleep a lot.
@rawpowah

I actually do think that they are making a point about his lack of sleep. Usually by 2, kids sleep. It's not like when they are infants. If he has not hardly slept in days, which the book kind of indicates (even if Han us exaggerating it seems really hard for Ben to fall asleep and to stay asleep it seems), there is something wrong there. I do think that is an indication of Snoke and/or an attachment problem.

Also, though I haven't finished it, he frequently cries when he is taken away or "disconnected" via Skype from people he loves. I think that the "skin hunger" and need for human attention that @Kylo Rey brings up is absolutely on point. I mean he gets left with a kitchen droid, with a rotary saw arm who is obsessed with making coffee and is going to feed him coffee before he gets possessed and attempts to kill Ben ... because the housekeeper/babysitter droid goes out (and doesn't think leaving him with a kitchen droid is a problem) ... and that happens because Han and Leia think it is fine to leave him with a droid instead of an actual living being.
@SoloSideCousin

He's also very easily spooked by things, it seems. Just an unexpected hologram or being spoken to firmly seems to send him into tears. I'm sure presenting him as a particularly sensitive child was a purposeful move!

And yeah, if Han and Leia are leaving Ben alone and with others so much when he's just a toddler, I'm sure that upped tenfold when he was an older kid and a little more self sufficient. It really doesn't paint a great picture that they weren't around to even bathe their own baby. That speaks to even more absence in the future.


Last edited by ZioRen on Thu 19 Apr 2018, 12:08 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Discussion: Last Shot - A Han and Lando Novel by Daniel José Older

Post by Night Huntress on Thu 19 Apr 2018, 12:03 pm

I'm only 37 % through (f**** real life responsibilities as work keeping me from reading Mad )

But so far- I LOVE THIS BOOK! It's heart breaking...and I can't remember any SW book old or new canon being that explicit or using the word "a**"

I was like- WHAT??? Did I really just read that??? Lolilol
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Re: Discussion: Last Shot - A Han and Lando Novel by Daniel José Older

Post by rawpowah on Thu 19 Apr 2018, 2:14 pm

@ISeeAnIsland @ZioRen With everything that is coming out about Han and Leia's parenting, I wouldn't be surprised at all if Ben decides to be a stay at home dad if Rey and him have kids.
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Re: Discussion: Last Shot - A Han and Lando Novel by Daniel José Older

Post by SoloSideCousin on Thu 19 Apr 2018, 2:44 pm

@ISeeAnIsland wrote:
@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@rawpowah wrote:@Cowgirlsamurai @whisperingwillow Thank you. I was wondering as well if snoke had something to do with Ben's state. Especially since he also doesn't get to sleep a lot.
@rawpowah

I actually do think that they are making a point about his lack of sleep. Usually by 2, kids sleep. It's not like when they are infants. If he has not hardly slept in days, which the book kind of indicates (even if Han us exaggerating it seems really hard for Ben to fall asleep and to stay asleep it seems), there is something wrong there. I do think that is an indication of Snoke and/or an attachment problem.

Also, though I haven't finished it, he frequently cries when he is taken away or "disconnected" via Skype from people he loves. I think that the "skin hunger" and need for human attention that @Kylo Rey brings up is absolutely on point. I mean he gets left with a kitchen droid, with a rotary saw arm who is obsessed with making coffee and is going to feed him coffee before he gets possessed and attempts to kill Ben ... because the housekeeper/babysitter droid goes out (and doesn't think leaving him with a kitchen droid is a problem) ... and that happens because Han and Leia think it is fine to leave him with a droid instead of an actual living being.
@SoloSideCousin

Agreed. I think the sleep problems were pointed out in Empire's End, too, if I recall.

We were still having some sleep problems with my daughter at 2 (these never really eased up until we moved her out of the crib and into a toddler bed), where she could only fall asleep under very specific conditions, and I know that wasn't typical...so what they're describing for Ben sounds really extreme.

I have to say that as a parent, Han and Leia come off looking really bad with the way that they're constantly leaving Ben in these new canon novels. I've always needed to occasionally travel for work (we're talking 2-3 trips per year of 2-3 days at a time...so very light travel), and I've always had a hard time leaving her...I still have a hard time leaving her, and she's almost 6. I can't even fathom what Han and Leia do in these novels, even though it's made clear that they love Ben.
@ISeeAnIsland

I couldn't agree more. My daughter was also very particular about sleep conditions, but she slept, as I am sure your daughter did. It seems like Ben's sleep is severely messed up, so much so as to indicate that something is really wrong.

And Han and Leia really are coming off terribly. And what's even more insane is that when you look at it, Han, even with all his insecurity and doubts and utter immaturity, actually worries about being a bad dad, when Leia so far seems utterly okay with how she's doing as she hands off Ben for his bath-by-droid when he is thrilled to see Lando. Also, you know that it was Leia who chose to have a droid babysitter as opposed to a human/Twilek/whatever. I mean handing off your kid to nanny too much is not great either, but at least he could bond with the nanny. I am actually pretty shocked how clueless they are making Han and Leia ... and I haven't even read the whole context around the murderous kitchen droid yet.
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Re: Discussion: Last Shot - A Han and Lando Novel by Daniel José Older

Post by 12 Parsnips on Thu 19 Apr 2018, 2:45 pm

@rawpowah wrote:@ISeeAnIsland @ZioRen With everything that is coming out about Han and Leia's parenting, I wouldn't be surprised at all if Ben decides to be a stay at home dad if Rey and him have kids.
@rawpowah

That's on my "PlsPlsPls, Lucasfilm!" list. I want Ben to be there and love his kids to bits.  

Last Shot is really doing a number on me. I'm a parent and I understand being busy and trying to juggle everything, but...geez, Han and Leia, just spend some time with your child already.   Sad
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Re: Discussion: Last Shot - A Han and Lando Novel by Daniel José Older

Post by CienaRee on Thu 19 Apr 2018, 2:58 pm

@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@ISeeAnIsland wrote:
@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@rawpowah wrote:@Cowgirlsamurai @whisperingwillow Thank you. I was wondering as well if snoke had something to do with Ben's state. Especially since he also doesn't get to sleep a lot.
@rawpowah

I actually do think that they are making a point about his lack of sleep. Usually by 2, kids sleep. It's not like when they are infants. If he has not hardly slept in days, which the book kind of indicates (even if Han us exaggerating it seems really hard for Ben to fall asleep and to stay asleep it seems), there is something wrong there. I do think that is an indication of Snoke and/or an attachment problem.

Also, though I haven't finished it, he frequently cries when he is taken away or "disconnected" via Skype from people he loves. I think that the "skin hunger" and need for human attention that @Kylo Rey brings up is absolutely on point. I mean he gets left with a kitchen droid, with a rotary saw arm who is obsessed with making coffee and is going to feed him coffee before he gets possessed and attempts to kill Ben ... because the housekeeper/babysitter droid goes out (and doesn't think leaving him with a kitchen droid is a problem) ... and that happens because Han and Leia think it is fine to leave him with a droid instead of an actual living being.
@SoloSideCousin

Agreed. I think the sleep problems were pointed out in Empire's End, too, if I recall.

We were still having some sleep problems with my daughter at 2 (these never really eased up until we moved her out of the crib and into a toddler bed), where she could only fall asleep under very specific conditions, and I know that wasn't typical...so what they're describing for Ben sounds really extreme.

I have to say that as a parent, Han and Leia come off looking really bad with the way that they're constantly leaving Ben in these new canon novels. I've always needed to occasionally travel for work (we're talking 2-3 trips per year of 2-3 days at a time...so very light travel), and I've always had a hard time leaving her...I still have a hard time leaving her, and she's almost 6. I can't even fathom what Han and Leia do in these novels, even though it's made clear that they love Ben.
@ISeeAnIsland

I couldn't agree more. My daughter was also very particular about sleep conditions, but she slept, as I am sure your daughter did. It seems like Ben's sleep is severely messed up, so much so as to indicate that something is really wrong.

And Han and Leia really are coming off terribly. And what's even more insane is that when you look at it, Han, even with all his insecurity and doubts and utter immaturity,  actually worries about being a bad dad, when Leia so far seems utterly okay with how she's doing as she hands off Ben for his bath-by-droid when he is thrilled to see Lando. Also, you know that it was Leia who chose to have a droid babysitter as opposed to a human/Twilek/whatever. I mean handing off your kid to nanny too much is not great either, but at least he could bond with the nanny. I am actually pretty shocked how clueless they are making Han and Leia ... and I haven't even read the whole context around the murderous kitchen droid yet.
@SoloSideCousin

I wish this surprised me ut to be honest even judging by the movies alone Han and Leia never struck me as very paternal people and while I haven't read the whole book yet reading some parts of it still makes me angry because for all his falws at least Han is aware that he's not a good parent and is trying to remedy his mistakes in some ways,but Leia on the other hand...boy does she seems utterly cluless and judgmentall all at one.Not only does she hae no idea what leaing her son with a droid could do to his deelopment but at the same time she's under the belief that she knows what's best for Ben eenthough she's not spending that much time with him.I know some people had this headcanon that Ben was mama's boy but reading all the canon information no wonder Ben seems to hae looked up to his father and trying to connect to him more they seem a lot alike in certain ways(especially the self esteem issues).
I'm really starting to think Han and Leia should have never had kids with each other( though Han may have turned out to be a decent father with less another critcizing woman) they're just a couple who could function when it's not only the two of them.


Last edited by CienaRee on Thu 19 Apr 2018, 3:04 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Discussion: Last Shot - A Han and Lando Novel by Daniel José Older

Post by rawpowah on Thu 19 Apr 2018, 3:03 pm

@12 Parsnips wrote:
@rawpowah wrote:@ISeeAnIsland @ZioRen With everything that is coming out about Han and Leia's parenting, I wouldn't be surprised at all if Ben decides to be a stay at home dad if Rey and him have kids.
@rawpowah

That's on my "PlsPlsPls, Lucasfilm!" list. I want Ben to be there and love his kids to bits.  

Last Shot is really doing a number on me. I'm a parent and I understand being busy and trying to juggle everything, but...geez, Han and Leia, just spend some time with your child already.   Sad
@12 Parsnips

If Rey and Ben have a daughter, Lucasfilm could make a lot of money off of cute father/daughter books for example. And father/son books too. I feel like there aren't that many books out there about fathers raising their kids or being stay at home dads (or at least I haven't seen them).
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Re: Discussion: Last Shot - A Han and Lando Novel by Daniel José Older

Post by Cowgirlsamurai on Thu 19 Apr 2018, 3:21 pm

@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@ISeeAnIsland wrote:
@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@rawpowah wrote:@Cowgirlsamurai @whisperingwillow Thank you. I was wondering as well if snoke had something to do with Ben's state. Especially since he also doesn't get to sleep a lot.
@rawpowah

I actually do think that they are making a point about his lack of sleep. Usually by 2, kids sleep. It's not like when they are infants. If he has not hardly slept in days, which the book kind of indicates (even if Han us exaggerating it seems really hard for Ben to fall asleep and to stay asleep it seems), there is something wrong there. I do think that is an indication of Snoke and/or an attachment problem.

Also, though I haven't finished it, he frequently cries when he is taken away or "disconnected" via Skype from people he loves. I think that the "skin hunger" and need for human attention that @Kylo Rey brings up is absolutely on point. I mean he gets left with a kitchen droid, with a rotary saw arm who is obsessed with making coffee and is going to feed him coffee before he gets possessed and attempts to kill Ben ... because the housekeeper/babysitter droid goes out (and doesn't think leaving him with a kitchen droid is a problem) ... and that happens because Han and Leia think it is fine to leave him with a droid instead of an actual living being.
@SoloSideCousin

Agreed. I think the sleep problems were pointed out in Empire's End, too, if I recall.

We were still having some sleep problems with my daughter at 2 (these never really eased up until we moved her out of the crib and into a toddler bed), where she could only fall asleep under very specific conditions, and I know that wasn't typical...so what they're describing for Ben sounds really extreme.

I have to say that as a parent, Han and Leia come off looking really bad with the way that they're constantly leaving Ben in these new canon novels. I've always needed to occasionally travel for work (we're talking 2-3 trips per year of 2-3 days at a time...so very light travel), and I've always had a hard time leaving her...I still have a hard time leaving her, and she's almost 6. I can't even fathom what Han and Leia do in these novels, even though it's made clear that they love Ben.
@ISeeAnIsland

I couldn't agree more. My daughter was also very particular about sleep conditions, but she slept, as I am sure your daughter did. It seems like Ben's sleep is severely messed up, so much so as to indicate that something is really wrong.

And Han and Leia really are coming off terribly. And what's even more insane is that when you look at it, Han, even with all his insecurity and doubts and utter immaturity,  actually worries about being a bad dad, when Leia so far seems utterly okay with how she's doing as she hands off Ben for his bath-by-droid when he is thrilled to see Lando. Also, you know that it was Leia who chose to have a droid babysitter as opposed to a human/Twilek/whatever. I mean handing off your kid to nanny too much is not great either, but at least he could bond with the nanny. I am actually pretty shocked how clueless they are making Han and Leia ... and I haven't even read the whole context around the murderous kitchen droid yet.


Two year olds are still babies, and crave routine and attention (including touch), and they're verrry sensitive to even little changes in their day-to-day lives. Sounds like Han and Leia come and go a lot, and droid care (to me) just can't be as good for them as a real person. My headcanon was that Ben was left with nannies a lot, but droid nannies is even worse Sad
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Re: Discussion: Last Shot - A Han and Lando Novel by Daniel José Older

Post by Irina de France on Thu 19 Apr 2018, 4:18 pm

@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@ISeeAnIsland wrote:
@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@rawpowah wrote:@Cowgirlsamurai @whisperingwillow Thank you. I was wondering as well if snoke had something to do with Ben's state. Especially since he also doesn't get to sleep a lot.
@rawpowah

I actually do think that they are making a point about his lack of sleep. Usually by 2, kids sleep. It's not like when they are infants. If he has not hardly slept in days, which the book kind of indicates (even if Han us exaggerating it seems really hard for Ben to fall asleep and to stay asleep it seems), there is something wrong there. I do think that is an indication of Snoke and/or an attachment problem.

Also, though I haven't finished it, he frequently cries when he is taken away or "disconnected" via Skype from people he loves. I think that the "skin hunger" and need for human attention that @Kylo Rey brings up is absolutely on point. I mean he gets left with a kitchen droid, with a rotary saw arm who is obsessed with making coffee and is going to feed him coffee before he gets possessed and attempts to kill Ben ... because the housekeeper/babysitter droid goes out (and doesn't think leaving him with a kitchen droid is a problem) ... and that happens because Han and Leia think it is fine to leave him with a droid instead of an actual living being.
@SoloSideCousin

Agreed. I think the sleep problems were pointed out in Empire's End, too, if I recall.

We were still having some sleep problems with my daughter at 2 (these never really eased up until we moved her out of the crib and into a toddler bed), where she could only fall asleep under very specific conditions, and I know that wasn't typical...so what they're describing for Ben sounds really extreme.

I have to say that as a parent, Han and Leia come off looking really bad with the way that they're constantly leaving Ben in these new canon novels. I've always needed to occasionally travel for work (we're talking 2-3 trips per year of 2-3 days at a time...so very light travel), and I've always had a hard time leaving her...I still have a hard time leaving her, and she's almost 6. I can't even fathom what Han and Leia do in these novels, even though it's made clear that they love Ben.
@ISeeAnIsland

I couldn't agree more. My daughter was also very particular about sleep conditions, but she slept, as I am sure your daughter did. It seems like Ben's sleep is severely messed up, so much so as to indicate that something is really wrong.

And Han and Leia really are coming off terribly. And what's even more insane is that when you look at it, Han, even with all his insecurity and doubts and utter immaturity, actually worries about being a bad dad, when Leia so far seems utterly okay with how she's doing as she hands off Ben for his bath-by-droid when he is thrilled to see Lando. Also, you know that it was Leia who chose to have a droid babysitter as opposed to a human/Twilek/whatever. I mean handing off your kid to nanny too much is not great either, but at least he could bond with the nanny. I am actually pretty shocked how clueless they are making Han and Leia ... and I haven't even read the whole context around the murderous kitchen droid yet.
@SoloSideCousin

Leia wasn't exactly very maternal in the old EU either, and she didn't spend that much time with her kids Jaina and Jacen, at least in the first few years of their lives (seriously, a running joke for EU fans was "drinking game where you take a shot every time Jaina and Jacen get kidnapped"), but at least they had a nanny, and that was Leia's friend Winter.

I'll have to agree with the point that Han and Leia may have loved each other, and it's obvious they love Ben very much, but they should have never had kids - at least not with each other. If they were married with someone else, I think it could have worked. But wow, it's absolutely mind-boggling that they'd think leaving a toddler with a kitchen droid as a nanny is a good idea. Han has low self-esteem to start with as a father and Leia is not helping him at all, and Leia has to be a control freak about Han's parenting style, which is in-character for her, but she comes off as a hypocrite because she's all caught up in work and she's never present anyway. Aaaaand she thinks leaving a kid with a kitchen droid is fine. Rolling Eyes Okay.

Reminds me of how the-reylo-void said on Tumblr that she knows people who worked as nannies for very rich, influential families and if they would have ever dared to leave the kid(s) they were in charge for to run an errand or something to leave them with the cook, they would have been fired and their reputation would be done for.

I don't know, I'm thinking of how Leia is in the ST when it comes to Ben and it comes off as... cold. She just sends off Ben to Luke at Jedi Camp because she can't be bothered with her kid's "problems", in Bloodline, to reprise what @snufkin said, her retirement plans from the Senate don't even involve Ben and she does really think of him like a pet she had to send away because he was ruining the furniture at home, and when sith hits the fan and Luke isn't ballsy enough to just tell Han and Leia what really went down and hides on an island, both she and Han just go and expect the worst and do nothing for six years, and even then, when Leia FINALLY attempts something, she just sends Han, but of course, it's "too little, too late". On Crait, her reaction is to say "now my son is really gone" and Luke doesn't even the goddarn decency of telling her what really happened. "It's Rey's job" my arse, Luke and Leia. You guys never even tried. No wonder Ben's reaction is to flip everyone off, become Renperor and want to blow up the Resistance.

*angry rant over*
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Re: Discussion: Last Shot - A Han and Lando Novel by Daniel José Older

Post by 12 Parsnips on Thu 19 Apr 2018, 4:23 pm

@rawpowah wrote:
@12 Parsnips wrote:
@rawpowah wrote:@ISeeAnIsland @ZioRen With everything that is coming out about Han and Leia's parenting, I wouldn't be surprised at all if Ben decides to be a stay at home dad if Rey and him have kids.
@rawpowah

That's on my "PlsPlsPls, Lucasfilm!" list. I want Ben to be there and love his kids to bits.  

Last Shot is really doing a number on me. I'm a parent and I understand being busy and trying to juggle everything, but...geez, Han and Leia, just spend some time with your child already.   Sad
@12 Parsnips

If Rey and Ben have a daughter, Lucasfilm could make a lot of money off of cute father/daughter books for example. And father/son books too. I feel like there aren't that many books out there about fathers raising their kids or being stay at home dads (or at least I haven't seen them).
@rawpowah

What a great idea! I can see me now--a total sucker for Daddy Ben books.  I love you  I would be their best customer for those!  Very Happy
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Re: Discussion: Last Shot - A Han and Lando Novel by Daniel José Older

Post by snufkin on Thu 19 Apr 2018, 4:37 pm

@Irina de France We know now that Claudia Grey had access to TLJ's screenplay (despite the offician story @IoJovi and @SoloSideCousin heard at DragonCon) while writing her novels. So that's always an interesting factor in how the characters were portrayed. Yeah I remember thinking that and also about how Luke being super idealistic about their father post-RotJ both felt like alarm bells.

The only thing I can figure with Leia's depiction as a working mother are the moments in the Carrie Fisher-Debbie Reynolds documentary where they talk about Debbie's career. Carrie talks about feeling resentment as a child having to 'share' her mother's attention with the public and while you understand, it also feels like it was both something Debbie needed beyond just putting food on the table. If she'd lived, I would've loved to hear how that shaped Leia and Ben's relationship in the story, because I can't imagine that she wouldn't have feelings on that topic. Especially as the keeper of Leia (and Leia in TLJ especially feels like she's an homage to Debbie).
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Re: Discussion: Last Shot - A Han and Lando Novel by Daniel José Older

Post by ISeeAnIsland on Thu 19 Apr 2018, 5:01 pm

As far as the whole Han-and-Leia-should-have-never-had-kids-together thing, it was stated in both Bloodline and one of the Aftermath books (Life Debt, I think), that Ben was an unplanned pregnancy. The bad parenting stuff is just more ammo to that line of thinking.
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Re: Discussion: Last Shot - A Han and Lando Novel by Daniel José Older

Post by rawpowah on Thu 19 Apr 2018, 5:05 pm

@12 Parsnips I don't even have kids and I would totally read them Laughing

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Re: Discussion: Last Shot - A Han and Lando Novel by Daniel José Older

Post by Kylo Rey on Thu 19 Apr 2018, 5:11 pm

You know, it's funny because in the 2 year wait between TFA and TLJ, we obviously speculated a lot and all had our own headcanons, but whenever we veered towards something that would make the OT3 look bad when it came to Ben's fall, we took a step back and were like "no way would LF have the cojones to paint them in such a negative light." And then TLJ came out and Ben's fall was even more tragic and darker than we imagined with his own beloved family member and legendary uncle pulling a lightsaber on him in his sleep. I'm still shook over that 4 months later. Every new bit of info we get about Ben's life just seems to be horribly depressing in ways that I didn't think they would dare go for but here we are.

It was pointed out here that there was something deeply wrong and off in Luke and Ben's relationship even beyond the obvious pulling a murderous weapon on your innocent nephew in his sleep. He frames their relationship as master and student rather than uncle and nephew and most importantly, when he's relaying what actually happened to Rey, he separates and doesn't include his nephew in "everything he loved," like he wasn't even a family member and just some random stranger. WTF. I thought maybe this was an oversight or plot hole but there seems to be a pattern and trend now in Luke and Leia's coldness towards Ben. She also treats him as a pet or an accessory that can just be handed off to someone as a problem that needs to be solved. Some people speculated that Luke and Ben never got along, but I'm thinking now that their relationship gradually became strained over time. Ben is being portrayed as extremely sensitive and craving affection from nearly *anyone* at this point as long as they're human, and clearly seems to adore his family members. Ben probably spent more time with Luke than either of his biological parents, and probably held him in high regard and wanted to emulate him as the legendary Luke Skywalker. Probably why he fell so hard and spiralled into darkness as he was so immensely hurt by his betrayal. If they had a strained relationship and never got along, he wouldn't have been so affected as he was even years later, IMO.

And honestly while Han and Leia are one of my favourite couples of all time, they're not exactly the first people that spring to mind when thinking of great parent candidates. Before the ST I used to often imagine them having children and whatnot, but I honestly can't picture Leia as a motherly person. That's not her fault, obviously. It's clear that not everyone is cut out to be parents and have children, and Han and Leia fit the bill unfortunately. Not to mention they had Ben way too quickly after the war had ended and were dealing with PTSD/survivors trauma. Although Leia does have motherly instincts, they're placed in what she has known her entire life: the cause of the Rebellion and the Resistance. While Leia is an incredibly tough person emotionally, and had a very formal and strict upbringing (she was also raised in part by droids) that doesn't mean it's going to work for her son. Ben, in particular is a very emotionally needy little boy and he desperately needed that attention from his mother. Not all children are the same. Couple this with Han's insecurity as a parent and it's a recipe for distaster with their temperaments. Han comes off as the best from the trio, as he genuinely realised he's failing and is trying to be better. Then he's the one who gets stabbed to death by his boy. There's so much tragic irony in this situation it's unreal. No wonder Ben is such a mess. It was probably really easy for Snoke to reach out to him and exploit him Sad
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Re: Discussion: Last Shot - A Han and Lando Novel by Daniel José Older

Post by rawpowah on Thu 19 Apr 2018, 5:25 pm

@Kylo Rey

I also see that a lot of fans right now are struggling with this idea of Han and Leia as less than perfect parents. I've seen quite a lot of accusations towards fans who talk critically about their parenting, claiming these fans are demonizing Han and Leia (especially Leia, who is very idolized in the fandom).

I'm also shocked by how Lucasfilm went there with the original trio's role in Ben's fall, but at the same time a lot of it is relegated to the canon novels instead of being explored in the movies. And it really makes me wonder why. Does Lucasfilm think it's too obvious of a hint towards redemption? Are they afraid of the reactions? They have no problems showing Luke's mistake, but they're awfully quiet on the HanLeia front (and TFA was supposed to be Han's movie, yet Han and Ben's relationship barely got addressed it seems).
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Re: Discussion: Last Shot - A Han and Lando Novel by Daniel José Older

Post by Irina de France on Thu 19 Apr 2018, 5:34 pm

@rawpowah wrote:@Kylo Rey

I also see that a lot of fans right now are struggling with this idea of Han and Leia as less than perfect parents. I've seen quite a lot of accusations towards fans who talk critically about their parenting, claiming these fans are demonizing Han and Leia (especially Leia, who is very idolized in the fandom).

I'm also shocked by how Lucasfilm went there with the original trio's role in Ben's fall, but at the same time a lot of it is relegated to the canon novels instead of being explored in the movies. And it really makes me wonder why. Does Lucasfilm think it's too obvious of a hint towards redemption? Are they afraid of the reactions? They have no problems showing Luke's mistake, but they're awfully quiet on the HanLeia front (and TFA was supposed to be Han's movie, yet Han and Ben's relationship barely got addressed it seems).
@rawpowah

Honestly, Leia is my favorite character in all of SW, and it's still the case today. I think my problem stems from the fact that it's not so much that she's a very flawed person and she failed in many aspects, notably towards Ben, but I think it's the way it's all handled, too. Do I feel sorry for Leia? Yes. Do I think she did nothing wrong and that her kid is a brat who needs to apologize to her? Heck no. He may owe her an apology, but she sure as heck owes him an apology too, at least for believing the worst about him and what went down at Jedi Camp and then waiting six years to intervene.

And I think what's kind of frustrating is that it's hard to tell if LF made some pretty unfortunate implications about the Skywalker family's whole backstory for the ST which they don't even realize themselves (I have the same problem with the Resistance in TLJ, to be honest...).
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Re: Discussion: Last Shot - A Han and Lando Novel by Daniel José Older

Post by Mila95 on Thu 19 Apr 2018, 5:39 pm

If Ben was unplanned that explains a lot tbh.They definitely wouldn't have been ready to be parents so fast after the end of ROTJ.Han was still struggling to stay in one place and feeling guilty about it.Leia always put her duty before everything else.I like that about their characters and it makes their dynamic interesting but it's not great for a kid especially one that's being targeted like Ben was.LF did go a lot further then I expected in exploring the flaws of the trio which I love as sad as it is.
It's such a shame we won't get to see Leia get her movie,they probably would have dealt with a lot of the stuff that's being hinted at in the novels and she would have faced some mistakes too.

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Re: Discussion: Last Shot - A Han and Lando Novel by Daniel José Older

Post by ZioRen on Thu 19 Apr 2018, 5:48 pm

@Irina de France wrote:
@rawpowah wrote:@Kylo Rey

I also see that a lot of fans right now are struggling with this idea of Han and Leia as less than perfect parents. I've seen quite a lot of accusations towards fans who talk critically about their parenting, claiming these fans are demonizing Han and Leia (especially Leia, who is very idolized in the fandom).

I'm also shocked by how Lucasfilm went there with the original trio's role in Ben's fall, but at the same time a lot of it is relegated to the canon novels instead of being explored in the movies. And it really makes me wonder why. Does Lucasfilm think it's too obvious of a hint towards redemption? Are they afraid of the reactions? They have no problems showing Luke's mistake, but they're awfully quiet on the HanLeia front (and TFA was supposed to be Han's movie, yet Han and Ben's relationship barely got addressed it seems).
@rawpowah

Honestly, Leia is my favorite character in all of SW, and it's still the case today. I think my problem stems from the fact that it's not so much that she's a very flawed person and she failed in many aspects, notably towards Ben, but I think it's the way it's all handled, too. Do I feel sorry for Leia? Yes. Do I think she did nothing wrong and that her kid is a brat who needs to apologize to her? Heck no. He may owe her an apology, but she sure as heck owes him an apology too, at least for believing the worst about him and what went down at Jedi Camp and then waiting six years to intervene.

And I think what's kind of frustrating is that it's hard to tell if LF made some pretty unfortunate implications about the Skywalker family's whole backstory for the ST which they don't even realize themselves (I have the same problem with the Resistance in TLJ, to be honest...).
@Irina de France

All I can think of is a couple years back when Pablo got defensive when it was suggested that how Kylo turned out was in any way Han and Leia's fault. I wonder if, to some degree, it was because he knew Lucasfilm writers were thinking of it this way and was sore about it. Even if it was just an internal discussion on Kylo's childhood, since the movies still don't paint even close to a picture of this and I'm not sure they ever will. I think they fear general audience backlash, so it's relegated to novels.

Basically, I think internally they always thought about things this way, even if they didn't plan to show it explicitly in the movies. It's amazing to me that they didn't just shove it all on Snoke to preserve the beloved OT trio, though. Talk about bold!


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