Discussion: Last Shot - A Han and Lando Novel by Daniel José Older

Page 3 of 4 Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next

Go down

Re: Discussion: Last Shot - A Han and Lando Novel by Daniel José Older

Post by rawpowah on Thu 19 Apr 2018, 4:50 pm

@Irina de France I think we'll only know after IX what LF's intentions are here. Or at least, I hope. Hope, hope, hope lol.

I'm honestly curious too about what happened after Luke's Jedi Camp blew up. Did Ben go directly to Snoke? Did his parents try and prevent it? Did they even try to find him? It all comes across as if they left Ben to rot and they just went on with their lives. Are the original trio just going to dump everything on Rey's shoulders? And the sad thing is that I have serious doubts they will address this in episode IX. For all the praise Lucasfilm got for going there with Reylo, I still have my doubts they're really willing to take big risks.
avatar
rawpowah
Jedi Master
Jedi Master

Messages : 847
Likes : 4317
Date d'inscription : 2017-11-18

Back to top Go down

Re: Discussion: Last Shot - A Han and Lando Novel by Daniel José Older

Post by Kylo Rey on Thu 19 Apr 2018, 5:15 pm

If you had told me years ago that Han and Leia would end up having a son together I would have been delighted. Then if you told me that son would kill his father, and that Han and Leia's boy would be snatched away by the equivalent of a disgusting, wrinkly child predator who was able to lure him in due to the horrible betrayal suffered at the hands of none other than one of the biggest pop culture icons of all time, Luke Skywalker, I would have been like





When put in writing like that it is wild.
avatar
Kylo Rey
Force Ghost
Force Ghost

Messages : 1318
Likes : 10539
Date d'inscription : 2016-12-24
Age : 22
Localisation : England

Back to top Go down

Re: Discussion: Last Shot - A Han and Lando Novel by Daniel José Older

Post by snufkin on Thu 19 Apr 2018, 5:29 pm

I almost think how you can handle the character and what happened is a Rorschach Test of being able to separate nostalgia for the OT/childhood associations. Because there are fans out there who are making "Luke must have seen something really bad and Ben's actions were becaues he'd been caught out at being bad" as the Hill they're going to die on. And likely post-IX, if you have the best case scenario happening, those fans are really going to have an interesting time in how they deal with it. It may be on the level of the no more EU freak outs.

Honestly, the fact that they were willing to go for psychological realism and complexity for the characters and make them less than perfect parents. Oh and have the relationship between Rey and Ben. As a former OT fan who fell away from the fold until the Interrogation Scene in TFA (because I always remember Carrie Fisher's wonderfully smutty joke about having the heroine having a love scene with the villain), I've been impressed as Hell so far that they weren't willing to keep the old characters under amber the way a lot of fans who persisted from childhood to adulthood seem to want. Fingers crossed that they keep that up with IX and continue to push it for these characters. I do think that had she lived, what we would've seen between Leia and Ben would've mirrored the reconciliation Carrie Fisher and Debbie Reynolds had after their estrangement and the worst of Carrie's years dealing with her demons.
avatar
snufkin
Force Ghost
Force Ghost

Messages : 7882
Likes : 35796
Date d'inscription : 2016-04-16
Localisation : it's in the chorus of Pavement's "Unfair"

Back to top Go down

Re: Discussion: Last Shot - A Han and Lando Novel by Daniel José Older

Post by californiagirl on Thu 19 Apr 2018, 7:54 pm

This may get into the broader discussion of Ben-Kylo in Episode IX, but how much backstory do you think we'll get regarding his childhood, parents, Snoke, the KOR... this list of unexplored topics goes on and on.

I'm wondering if LF is okay with "defiling" the perfect reputations of the deified OT3 because they already had the old EU to do all the fanservice and pandering where Han, Luke, and Leia could do no wrong. And now that all got chucked out the second story window and SW began anew, and with actual standards and quality control this time, not determined by the will of the "fans".
avatar
californiagirl
Force Ghost
Force Ghost

Messages : 1019
Likes : 4541
Date d'inscription : 2017-11-12
Age : 24

Back to top Go down

Re: Discussion: Last Shot - A Han and Lando Novel by Daniel José Older

Post by Night Huntress on Fri 20 Apr 2018, 12:09 am

So, I finished "Last Shot" last night...it's so heartbreaking! Cry

Now I need to read all the comments before I can really join the discussion.

I think the author did a good job- he showed how Han really loves Ben, but don't really know how to be a father and I do thinks that's a realistic dilemma a lot parents had to go through.
avatar
Night Huntress
Force Ghost
Force Ghost

Messages : 1706
Likes : 8121
Date d'inscription : 2017-08-24
Age : 36
Localisation : Switzerland

Back to top Go down

Re: Discussion: Last Shot - A Han and Lando Novel by Daniel José Older

Post by Night Huntress on Fri 20 Apr 2018, 1:25 am

@Irina de France wrote:
@SoloSideCousin

Leia wasn't exactly very maternal in the old EU either, and she didn't spend that much time with her kids Jaina and Jacen, at least in the first few years of their lives (seriously, a running joke for EU fans was "drinking game where you take a shot every time Jaina and Jacen get kidnapped"), but at least they had a nanny, and that was Leia's friend Winter.

No, she really wasn't- their "legends children" were much closer to Han than their mother. Jaina even says during "the new Jedi order" series that Leia shouldn't have children. She felt much closer to Luke's wife Mara than her own mother.

@Irina de France wrote:
Reminds me of how the-reylo-void said on Tumblr that she knows people who worked as nannies for very rich, influential families and if they would have ever dared to leave the kid(s) they were in charge for to run an errand or something to leave them with the cook, they would have been fired and their reputation would be done for.

Yes, AND it reminds me how ofter those "rich privileged" children got totally messed-up as teenagers and adults. Having rich famous parents sounds great as an outsider- but in most cases it's not great at all. Even if those parents can afford the best nannies and spoil their children materialistically, they can't replace real attention and care.

@Irina de France wrote:
I don't know, I'm thinking of how Leia is in the ST when it comes to Ben and it comes off as... cold. She just sends off Ben to Luke at Jedi Camp because she can't be bothered with her kid's "problems", in Bloodline, to reprise what @snufkin said, her retirement plans from the Senate don't even involve Ben and she does really think of him like a pet she had to send away because he was ruining the furniture at home,   and when sith hits the fan and Luke isn't ballsy enough to just tell Han and Leia what really went down and hides on an island, both she and Han just go and expect the worst and do nothing for six years, and even then, when Leia FINALLY attempts something, she just sends Han, but of course, it's "too little, too late". On Crait, her reaction is to say "now my son is really gone" and Luke doesn't even the goddarn decency of telling her what really happened. "It's Rey's job" my arse, Luke and Leia. You guys never even tried. No wonder Ben's reaction is to flip everyone off, become Renperor and want to blow up the Resistance.

*angry rant over*
@Irina de France

I can't agree more! I complained about Leia's cold neglecting behavior towards Ben even before TLJ- I love Leia, she is a great leader and a good person but she failed to be a mother... big time!  No
Reading "the last shot" I couldn't help to think Ben should have killed Leia instead of Han. Ok, that sounds bad he shouldn't have killed any of his parents, but you know what I mean?
Why couldn't they hire a human or at least a living being to care for their child! What the hell?

And by the way. Aren't there contraceptives in the Star Wars universe? I mean Leia seems a smart women- don't she now how to prevent pregnancy? The same for Padmé in the prequels.  Rolling Eyes
avatar
Night Huntress
Force Ghost
Force Ghost

Messages : 1706
Likes : 8121
Date d'inscription : 2017-08-24
Age : 36
Localisation : Switzerland

Back to top Go down

Re: Discussion: Last Shot - A Han and Lando Novel by Daniel José Older

Post by DeeBee on Fri 20 Apr 2018, 1:31 am

@rawpowah wrote:@ISeeAnIsland @ZioRen With everything that is coming out about Han and Leia's parenting, I wouldn't be surprised at all if Ben decides to be a stay at home dad if Rey and him have kids.
@rawpowah

This would be so sweeeeet in more ways than one! Can you imagine what all the fanboys who see Kylo going fully evil/ total Sith would do if it ended like this?!!
cheers ohhh I'm going to laugh about this one for days! Very Happy

Thanks all for sharing your insights.. I'm truly finding this thread heartbreaking! Toddler Ben cared for by droids? almost killed? gah!!!!
My goodness SW is full trauma and attachment issues... but I'll resist getting too psych-y here. lol.
avatar
DeeBee
Force Ghost
Force Ghost

Messages : 1037
Likes : 2920
Date d'inscription : 2017-10-20
Localisation : The Unknown Regions :)

Back to top Go down

Re: Discussion: Last Shot - A Han and Lando Novel by Daniel José Older

Post by snufkin on Fri 20 Apr 2018, 11:27 am

Didn't Carrie make some comment in the same "My son is an a**hole...Rey is very forgiving" con appearance that "okay so maybe Han and I neglected him a little bit." While it's natural to feel some disappointment in one sense that the characters you loved as a child turned out to be mediocre parents. But at the same time, the original idea Kasdan had for ending the OT was that Han would die sacrificing himself for the Rebellion and Leia would be left on her own, pregnant, and trying to hold together what was left of that society as its leader/queen. So it's not like there was ever an idea that they'd be the picture of a nuclear family. And as I've said before, once you watch the documentary about Carrie and Debbie's relationship, you get the idea exactly how much meta-commentary about Carrie's childhood and the chaos of Debbie's very public divorce from Eddie Fisher is in the franchise's depiction of family life.

Still waiting for a copy. I'm #3 on the waiting list for the copies my library ordered and as of yesterday, they still haven't received the shipment. I had to wait 3 weeks to get the Fry novel, but at this rate, maybe I'll get it by the time Solo comes out.
avatar
snufkin
Force Ghost
Force Ghost

Messages : 7882
Likes : 35796
Date d'inscription : 2016-04-16
Localisation : it's in the chorus of Pavement's "Unfair"

Back to top Go down

Re: Discussion: Last Shot - A Han and Lando Novel by Daniel José Older

Post by ISeeAnIsland on Fri 20 Apr 2018, 12:22 pm

@Night Huntress wrote:

And by the way. Aren't there contraceptives in the Star Wars universe? I mean Leia seems a smart women- don't she now how to prevent pregnancy? The same for Padmé in the prequels.  Rolling Eyes
@Night Huntress

If I recall, Leia made a reference to a "contraceptive failure" in Bloodline. So, they apparently have those in the GFFA, too, just like we do.

As far as Padmé goes, I never got the sense that her pregnancy was unplanned. She and Anakin both seemed really happy about it, whereas the Han/Leia reaction in Aftermath/Bloodline was more of an "Oh s***!"
avatar
ISeeAnIsland
Force Ghost
Force Ghost

Messages : 5683
Likes : 29489
Date d'inscription : 2016-03-25
Localisation : Seattle, WA

Back to top Go down

Re: Discussion: Last Shot - A Han and Lando Novel by Daniel José Older

Post by snufkin on Fri 20 Apr 2018, 12:39 pm

@ISeeAnIsland wrote:
@Night Huntress wrote:

And by the way. Aren't there contraceptives in the Star Wars universe? I mean Leia seems a smart women- don't she now how to prevent pregnancy? The same for Padmé in the prequels.  Rolling Eyes
@Night Huntress

If I recall, Leia made a reference to a "contraceptive failure" in Bloodline. So, they apparently have those in the GFFA, too, just like we do.

As far as Padmé goes, I never got the sense that her pregnancy was unplanned. She and Anakin both seemed really happy about it, whereas the Han/Leia reaction in Aftermath/Bloodline was more of an "Oh s***!"
@ISeeAnIsland

Time to revisit Sara Jeong's classic piece for Vice about Women's Healthcare in STar Wars (aka the Old Republic wouldn't have fallen if Vader had got off of his a** and taken his wife to Lamaze Class)

Did Inadequate Women’s Healthcare Destroy Star Wars’ Old Republic?

The giant OB/GYN plot hole isn't really about the Star Wars universe having inadequate reproductive health care, it's about Lucas lazily relying on a blanket of ignorance surrounding the entire phenomenon of childbirth. Childbirth is a black box that can explain anything that is difficult to explain, like how Anakin can turn on everyone he loves and all the principles he holds dear, or how Padme can just up and die without anything being visibly wrong.

Reproductive health and childbirth is a crutch, and Lucas gets away with it because his audience accepts that these things are mysterious and cannot be intervened with the way that that the loss of limbs can be remedied with robot prosthetics, or the way Luke can be rescued from near-death on Hoth by being submerged in a bacta tank. Having babies is worse than being mauled by a wampa ice creature or being chopped up by lightsabers and falling into a river of lava. Lucas can write a world like that, and worse, the audience will accept it.

But uteruses aren't made of malignant magic. Women's bodies are real physical things that can be studied and understood and when necessary, cured. The public at large should be better educated about reproductive health in general. Like ankle sprains, tooth decay, or heart attacks, reproductive health should be a banal medical thing that a lot of people know something about. The fact that there's so much ignorance around it is a disgrace, a disgrace just as massive and overwhelming as the very existence of the Star Wars prequels.



avatar
snufkin
Force Ghost
Force Ghost

Messages : 7882
Likes : 35796
Date d'inscription : 2016-04-16
Localisation : it's in the chorus of Pavement's "Unfair"

Back to top Go down

Re: Discussion: Last Shot - A Han and Lando Novel by Daniel José Older

Post by Night Huntress on Fri 20 Apr 2018, 12:53 pm

@ISeeAnIsland wrote:
@Night Huntress wrote:

And by the way. Aren't there contraceptives in the Star Wars universe? I mean Leia seems a smart women- don't she now how to prevent pregnancy? The same for Padmé in the prequels.  Rolling Eyes
@Night Huntress
If I recall, Leia made a reference to a "contraceptive failure" in Bloodline. So, they apparently have those in the GFFA, too, just like we do.

Really? I can't remember that- have to reread Bloodline and pay more attention. scratch

@ISeeAnIsland wrote:
As far as Padmé goes, I never got the sense that her pregnancy was unplanned. She and Anakin both seemed really happy about it, whereas the Han/Leia reaction in Aftermath/Bloodline was more of an "Oh s***!"
@ISeeAnIsland

Well, from the reaction of Anakin and Padmé's worried look while telling him "the good news" my impression was that it wasn't "planned". Nope

As for Han/Leia- I don't want to complain...but I'm a bit surprised it was an "oops I'm pregnant". Maybe because it's not something I could ever imagine for myself.
avatar
Night Huntress
Force Ghost
Force Ghost

Messages : 1706
Likes : 8121
Date d'inscription : 2017-08-24
Age : 36
Localisation : Switzerland

Back to top Go down

Re: Discussion: Last Shot - A Han and Lando Novel by Daniel José Older

Post by Cowgirlsamurai on Fri 20 Apr 2018, 5:48 pm

Ok, I had to look up that scene. And look, a bunch of these lines got cut. (“I’ve never felt so alone”!) I wonder if Rian read this script  Laughing Padme was nervous to tell him and he’s not sure how to react...

ANAKIN: Are you all right? You're trembling. What's going on?

PADME: I'm just excited to see you.

ANAKIN: That's not it. I sense more . . . what is it?

PADME: Nothing . . . nothing . . .

ANAKIN: You're frightened. (a little angry) Tell me what's going on!

PADME begins to cry.

PADME: You've been gone five months . . . it's been very hard for me. I've never felt so alone. There's . . .

ANAKIN: . . . Is there someone else?

PADME: (peeved, angry) No! Why do you think that? Your jealousy upsets me so much, Anakin. I do nothing to betray you, yet you still don't trust me. Nothing has changed.

ANAKIN: (sheepish) I'm afraid of losing you, Padme . . . that's all.

PADME: I will never stop loving you, Anakin. My only fear is losing you.

ANAKIN: It's just that I've never seen you like this . . .

PADME: Something wonderful has happened.

They look at each other for a long moment.

PADME: (continuing) I'm . . . Annie, I'm pregnant.

ANAKIN is stunned. He thinks through all of the ramifications of this. He takes her in his arms.

ANAKIN: That's . . . that's wonderful.

PADME: What are we going to do?

ANAKIN: We're not going to worry about anything right now, all right? This is a happy moment. The happiest moment of my life.
avatar
Cowgirlsamurai
Force Ghost
Force Ghost

Messages : 1968
Likes : 9737
Date d'inscription : 2017-03-30
Age : 32

Back to top Go down

Re: Discussion: Last Shot - A Han and Lando Novel by Daniel José Older

Post by Kessel on Sat 21 Apr 2018, 1:24 am

@ISeeAnIsland wrote:
@Night Huntress wrote:

And by the way. Aren't there contraceptives in the Star Wars universe? I mean Leia seems a smart women- don't she now how to prevent pregnancy? The same for Padmé in the prequels.  Rolling Eyes
@Night Huntress

If I recall, Leia made a reference to a "contraceptive failure" in Bloodline. So, they apparently have those in the GFFA, too, just like we do.

As far as Padmé goes, I never got the sense that her pregnancy was unplanned. She and Anakin both seemed really happy about it, whereas the Han/Leia reaction in Aftermath/Bloodline was more of an "Oh s***!"
@ISeeAnIsland

I thought Padme’s pregnancy was something not necessarily planned, but not something they were actively avoiding. Anakin seemed a little surprised with the news at first, like it wasn’t something he had previously considered, but I got the impression it was a nice surprise.

The one thing I will never understand is how Padme never knew she was having twins until they were born. Or did I remember that wrong? There’s no way she wouldnt have known that if she was getting any sort of prenatal care in a galaxy where there are sophisticated droids and starships equipped with hyperdrives that allow them to travel through hyperspace at the speed of light.

_________________
"The relationship between Kylo and Rey is awesome."
avatar
Kessel
Moderator

Messages : 1873
Likes : 13242
Date d'inscription : 2016-03-26

Back to top Go down

Re: Discussion: Last Shot - A Han and Lando Novel by Daniel José Older

Post by SoloSideCousin on Sat 21 Apr 2018, 4:16 am

Okay, I just finished the Last Shot book, and there are a number of interesting things in it that I think will be pertinent to Solo, but I am focused on Ben right now.

I'm not sure how many details people want, so I will put this into spoiler tags:

Detailed Book Spoiler:


Okay, so we know that there is a murder attempt on toddler Ben by the kitchen droid. However, I wanted to read the whole book so that I could get some context around it, and this is my reading of the incident:

1. IMO, Ben does use the force to defend himself. Though the evil transmission has stopped at the original site and is probably stopping a very short time later at Chandrila, where Ben is, the kitchen droid talks about a huge burst of light that seems to momentarily blind it so much so that the droid thinks a bomb went off. There is no similar burst of light when the transmission stops with the droids where Han and Lando are. The eyes just go from red back to their regular color and engines start again. Also, the kitchen droid sees the burst of light immediately after Ben turns around and looks at him advancing on him.

2. Leia is either the worst mother known to humankind or she doesn't know that the kitchen droid tried to murder Ben. The reason I say this is that Leia and Han joke about not leaving Ben with a kitchen droid anymore. So either one of two things is happening: (a) they are blowing off the murder attempt in such a callous manner that they are joking about it OR (b) they have no idea.

IMO, they have absolutely no idea. The kitchen droid would be the only one to tell the tale, and he didn't know what was happening. I think that they were kidding about the kitchen droid because they knew that the droids were almost taken over by an evil program, but nothing beyond that. (Leia mentions nothing about anybody being killed on Chandrila from a droid either). So IMO Han and Leia absolutely do not know that their son had a murder attempt on him.

In fact, they probably will never know about it. Ben may barely know it happened, but his deep memory will know it, and so when Luke tries to do the same thing, not only does he experience that trauma, the Luke attempt triggers the old trauma of the murderous droid. Add in Snoke and rarely-there parents, and it's shocking that Ben has any sanity at all.

3. Ben is crazy about his father. In the second to last Skype session between Leia, Ben and Han in the book, Ben says, "Come back Dada", and is specifically described as saying each word very carefully. So the author really wants to get across that Ben really wants his father home in a very serious way. Also, the "come back" is a repetition of what Rey remembered saying to her parents. Yet another Reylo parallel.

4. In the last Skype session between Han, Leia and Ben, which takes place post-kitchen droid, Ben does not even try to engage with his father, whereas before he is described as having a big toothy grin, and being thrilled to see Lando, and waving to everyone in the "come back dada" session. In this last session, he is just described as playing with Leia's hair, and then she lets him down to go play. It's a very subtle moment, but to me it was really heartbreaking. Something really terrible happened to Ben, and neither his mother nor his father wasn't there to save him or even help him. So IMO when Ben does not even try to say "Hi" to Han in that last Skype session, he is already losing hope, he is already feeling alone, he is already starting not to believe in his father, even though he is only two. Han doesn't notice any change and neither does Leia. In fact they joke about having time to get away from each other, and how when Leia gets away Han can stay with Ben all day, and then they continue the joke that maybe at some point they can have a getaway without Ben, just not with a kitchen droid as a babysitter.

It is obviously very typical conversation between a married couple, but it comes across *really bad* in the context that their two-year-old was almost murdered by a robot and that said toddler used some very scary and confusing powers to defend himself in that moment.

Han and Leia do love Ben. Han gets an automatic smile on his face when he sees Ben in that "come back dada" Skype session, but there is a lot of in the book that indicates that Han and Leia are just really into each other and that Ben is kind of an afterthought.

There is this odd bit where Han is thinking that Leia is the reason he stays alive, and there is some detail with it. And then after the Leia love detail, there's a line like (paraphrasing) "And, of course, Ben. He lives for Ben. Ben needs him." And during the emergency of thinking the droids would take over Chandrila, he is totally "Ben. Leia." But when it's not an emergency, Ben can seem "afterthought-ish" IMO.

I mean it's more of the absence of what could be written instead of what was written. Han has several detailed thoughts of how wonderful Leia is while he is away, but he has no such thoughts of Ben. There is nothing about any cute thing Ben does at all. Instead, Ben is left with a droid and can get ahold of a power drill. Leia talks about how she misses Han and he talks about how he misses her, but no one ever mentions Ben in all this talk of "missing." There is no "Ben really misses you," or "I can't wait to see Ben." It's all just very sad.

It's like there is this cutesy veneer of normalcy when something really terrible and potentially life-shattering has happened to a baby, but no one knows about it and when his parents are joking about his almost murderer. I just find it not only tragic, but as dark as s***.
avatar
SoloSideCousin
Force Ghost
Force Ghost

Messages : 4641
Likes : 22446
Date d'inscription : 2016-03-25

Back to top Go down

Re: Discussion: Last Shot - A Han and Lando Novel by Daniel José Older

Post by MeadowofAshes on Sat 21 Apr 2018, 5:30 am

@solosidecousin

I second all of what you've said in the spoiler tag. To add to that...

Spoiler:
Lando in this book was, in general, all kinds of awesome. Can we all appreciate that a twi'lek school teacher brought her class on a field trip to Cloud City and ended up in bed with Lando? Laughing But on a serious thematic note with that, I love that a) Uncle Lando caught feelings for the twi'lek woman and b) is shown to be someone Ben genuinely loves and adores because this is another strong male influence on Ben and a way to show in the end Ben really is just like the men of his family.
I.e. He's a trouble maker who ultimately falls head over heels for a girl.

The other aspect of this book that struck me was what seems to be a parallel between, of all things, L3/Phyllanx and Rey/Ben. Note how there's a running joke between Lando and L3 about L3 having a hot date, then "intercourse" with the droid. There's mention L3 is possibly lesbian/bisexual -- it turns out the droid she's got a "date" with is male. What's really going on is the Phyllanx has been corrupted and will send out a signal causing other droids to kill so her mission is to get his programming  and create a retrovirus to neutralize it. While there she leaves a little programming of her own inside him --
Doubt. I thought this was so lovely btw. She says when you take something you're supposed to leave something. I was instantly reminded of Rey's "I bypassed the compressor" being a metaphor for her bypassing Snoke's influence on Ben, and how what he's left with at the end of TLJ is doubt. He has everything he thought he wanted, but is it really without the girl?

My major takeaway from this book is that, thematically speaking, everything in the new material is intricately woven together with the ST.  

Re: Leia's pregnancy, she isn't sure when exactly it happened as per Bloodline and seems to think it was shortly after they were married. Han pretty well stomps any family friendly notion into the curb in one of the Aftermaths and confirms fanon -- Ben was an Ewok Village baby because they had a wild night of uninhibited and joyous celebration. Twisted Evil (And btw now I'm singing "I'm just an Ewok Village baby" to the tune of that awful "I'm just a prom night dumpster baby" song from Family Guy. Because I am a terrible person...)

avatar
MeadowofAshes
Force Ghost
Force Ghost

Messages : 2044
Likes : 11122
Date d'inscription : 2016-03-25
Age : 32

Back to top Go down

Re: Discussion: Last Shot - A Han and Lando Novel by Daniel José Older

Post by snufkin on Sat 21 Apr 2018, 12:54 pm

@MeadowofAshes wrote:My major takeaway from this book is that, thematically speaking, everything in the new material is intricately woven together with the ST.  

This reminded me of something I'll be curious about in Solo. We know that Ben ends up taking Han's warning to heart that "Snoke is using you. When he gets what he wants, he'll crush you." because Snoke wanted to hunt down/destroy the Light, which turned out to be Rey. And that his "cruelest stroke" line was to make Ben kill her as a final test of loyalty/commitment to the Dark. So Ben actually learns something and saves Rey/turns on Snoke because of Han.  What I'm curious about is that Kasdan has said the story in this film is "what happened to make Han so cynical/guarded when we first meet him in Mos Eisley?" He's also said outright that the moment when Han asks Rey her name and tries to get her to stay with him in Chewie is b/c he sees his younger/vulnerable self in the position she's been in as a scavenger/fugitive. And there's the 'betrayal' line in the trailer. So not just "what goes wrong" in the film to make Han that way when he first meets Obi-Wan and company, but did somebody in his past do to him what he's warning Ben about? Did somebody use him to get what they wanted and that in turn crushed (emotionally/psychologically) him?
avatar
snufkin
Force Ghost
Force Ghost

Messages : 7882
Likes : 35796
Date d'inscription : 2016-04-16
Localisation : it's in the chorus of Pavement's "Unfair"

Back to top Go down

Re: Discussion: Last Shot - A Han and Lando Novel by Daniel José Older

Post by SoloSideCousin on Sat 21 Apr 2018, 1:33 pm

@MeadowofAshes wrote:@solosidecousin

I second all of what you've said in the spoiler tag. To add to that...

Spoiler:
Lando in this book was, in general, all kinds of awesome. Can we all appreciate that a twi'lek school teacher brought her class on a field trip to Cloud City and ended up in bed with Lando? Laughing But on a serious thematic note with that, I love that a) Uncle Lando caught feelings for the twi'lek woman and b) is shown to be someone Ben genuinely loves and adores because this is another strong male influence on Ben and a way to show in the end Ben really is just like the men of his family.
I.e. He's a trouble maker who ultimately falls head over heels for a girl.

The other aspect of this book that struck me was what seems to be a parallel between, of all things, L3/Phyllanx and Rey/Ben. Note how there's a running joke between Lando and L3 about L3 having a hot date, then "intercourse" with the droid. There's mention L3 is possibly lesbian/bisexual -- it turns out the droid she's got a "date" with is male. What's really going on is the Phyllanx has been corrupted and will send out a signal causing other droids to kill so her mission is to get his programming  and create a retrovirus to neutralize it. While there she leaves a little programming of her own inside him --
Doubt. I thought this was so lovely btw. She says when you take something you're supposed to leave something. I was instantly reminded of Rey's "I bypassed the compressor" being a metaphor for her bypassing Snoke's influence on Ben, and how what he's left with at the end of TLJ is doubt. He has everything he thought he wanted, but is it really without the girl?

My major takeaway from this book is that, thematically speaking, everything in the new material is intricately woven together with the ST.  

Re: Leia's pregnancy, she isn't sure when exactly it happened as per Bloodline and seems to think it was shortly after they were married. Han pretty well stomps any family friendly notion into the curb in one of the Aftermaths and confirms fanon -- Ben was an Ewok Village baby because they had a wild night of uninhibited and joyous celebration. Twisted Evil (And btw now I'm singing "I'm just an Ewok Village baby" to the tune of that awful "I'm just a prom night dumpster baby" song from Family Guy. Because I am a terrible person...)

@MeadowofAshes

I agree with all of this, particularly the spoiler tag.

I am on my phone, so I can't do spoiler tags, but on the virus thing, there was a wonderful line about "going back to [one's] original programming", and how by doing that, one is going back to who they truly are. Ben was a sensitive,  but also a very enthusiastic, loving, energetic, toothy grinning boy with an old soul (as hinted in the "ancient eyes" line). That boy is still under there. That boy is the original programming.

Lando was kick a**,  and continuing with what you said, I love how Lando accepts his dual nature, scoundrel and hero ... sounds a little like dark and light, doesn't it? :-)

Also, L3 is going to kick a** and take names in Solo. :-)
avatar
SoloSideCousin
Force Ghost
Force Ghost

Messages : 4641
Likes : 22446
Date d'inscription : 2016-03-25

Back to top Go down

Re: Discussion: Last Shot - A Han and Lando Novel by Daniel José Older

Post by MeadowofAshes on Sat 21 Apr 2018, 2:17 pm

@snufkin wrote:
@MeadowofAshes wrote:My major takeaway from this book is that, thematically speaking, everything in the new material is intricately woven together with the ST.  

This reminded me of something I'll be curious about in Solo. We know that Ben ends up taking Han's warning to heart that "Snoke is using you. When he gets what he wants, he'll crush you." because Snoke wanted to hunt down/destroy the Light, which turned out to be Rey. And that his "cruelest stroke" line was to make Ben kill her as a final test of loyalty/commitment to the Dark. So Ben actually learns something and saves Rey/turns on Snoke because of Han.  What I'm curious about is that Kasdan has said the story in this film is "what happened to make Han so cynical/guarded when we first meet him in Mos Eisley?" He's also said outright that the moment when Han asks Rey her name and tries to get her to stay with him in Chewie is b/c he sees his younger/vulnerable self in the position she's been in as a scavenger/fugitive. And there's the 'betrayal' line in the trailer. So not just "what goes wrong" in the film to make Han that way when he first meets Obi-Wan and company, but did somebody in his past do to him what he's warning Ben about? Did somebody use him to get what they wanted and that in turn crushed (emotionally/psychologically) him?
@snufkin

I'd place bets on Qi'Ra or Woody Harrelson's character. I hope it's Qi'ra, and I especially lean this direction not only because of the lovesickness/heartbreak Han feels in Last Shot but because I'd love to see a female villain as we haven't had one in the films.

@solosidecousin omg good catch! I love that we got a taste of the original programming. I can't get enough of kid Ben! I had to go back and read all the pregnant Leia and baby Ben stuff in Aftermath too. His story is just too sad and I hope hope hope JJ does right by his character and lets Ben have the monologue of the ages where he tells Rey what Snoke was (subtextually) doing to him when he was a boy. Let the survivor tell his story PLEASE.
avatar
MeadowofAshes
Force Ghost
Force Ghost

Messages : 2044
Likes : 11122
Date d'inscription : 2016-03-25
Age : 32

Back to top Go down

Re: Discussion: Last Shot - A Han and Lando Novel by Daniel José Older

Post by californiagirl on Sat 21 Apr 2018, 2:32 pm

@SoloSideCousin wrote:Okay, I just finished the Last Shot book, and there are a number of interesting things in it that I think will be pertinent to Solo, but I am focused on Ben right now.

I'm not sure how many details people want, so I will put this into spoiler tags:

Detailed Book Spoiler:


Okay, so we know that there is a murder attempt on toddler Ben by the kitchen droid. However, I wanted to read the whole book so that I could get some context around it, and this is my reading of the incident:

1. IMO, Ben does use the force to defend himself. Though the evil transmission has stopped at the original site and is probably stopping a very short time later at Chandrila, where Ben is, the kitchen droid talks about a huge burst of light that seems to momentarily blind it so much so that the droid thinks a bomb went off. There is no similar burst of light when the transmission stops with the droids where Han and Lando are. The eyes just go from red back to their regular color and engines start again. Also, the kitchen droid sees the burst of light immediately after Ben turns around and looks at him advancing on him.

2. Leia is either the worst mother known to humankind or she doesn't know that the kitchen droid tried to murder Ben. The reason I say this is that Leia and Han joke about not leaving Ben with a kitchen droid anymore. So either one of two things is happening: (a) they are blowing off the murder attempt in such a callous manner that they are joking about it OR (b) they have no idea.

IMO, they have absolutely no idea. The kitchen droid would be the only one to tell the tale, and he didn't know what was happening. I think that they were kidding about the kitchen droid because they knew that the droids were almost taken over by an evil program, but nothing beyond that. (Leia mentions nothing about anybody being killed on Chandrila from a droid either). So IMO Han and Leia absolutely do not know that their son had a murder attempt on him.

In fact, they probably will never know about it. Ben may barely know it happened, but his deep memory will know it, and so when Luke tries to do the same thing, not only does he experience that trauma, the Luke attempt triggers the old trauma of the murderous droid. Add in Snoke and rarely-there parents, and it's shocking that Ben has any sanity at all.

3. Ben is crazy about his father. In the second to last Skype session between Leia, Ben and Han in the book, Ben says, "Come back Dada", and is specifically described as saying each word very carefully. So the author really wants to get across that Ben really wants his father home in a very serious way. Also, the "come back" is a repetition of what Rey remembered saying to her parents. Yet another Reylo parallel.

4. In the last Skype session between Han, Leia and Ben, which takes place post-kitchen droid, Ben does not even try to engage with his father, whereas before he is described as having a big toothy grin, and being thrilled to see Lando, and waving to everyone in the "come back dada" session. In this last session, he is just described as playing with Leia's hair, and then she lets him down to go play. It's a very subtle moment, but to me it was really heartbreaking. Something really terrible happened to Ben, and neither his mother nor his father wasn't there to save him or even help him. So IMO when Ben does not even try to say "Hi" to Han in that last Skype session, he is already losing hope, he is already feeling alone, he is already starting not to believe in his father, even though he is only two. Han doesn't notice any change and neither does Leia. In fact they joke about having time to get away from each other, and how when Leia gets away Han can stay with Ben all day, and then they continue the joke that maybe at some point they can have a getaway without Ben, just not with a kitchen droid as a babysitter.

It is obviously very typical conversation between a married couple, but it comes across *really bad* in the context that their two-year-old was almost murdered by a robot and that said toddler used some very scary and confusing powers to defend himself in that moment.

Han and Leia do love Ben. Han gets an automatic smile on his face when he sees Ben in that "come back dada" Skype session, but there is a lot of in the book that indicates that Han and Leia are just really into each other and that Ben is kind of an afterthought.

There is this odd bit where Han is thinking that Leia is the reason he stays alive, and there is some detail with it. And then after the Leia love detail, there's a line like (paraphrasing) "And, of course, Ben. He lives for Ben. Ben needs him." And during the emergency of thinking the droids would take over Chandrila, he is totally "Ben. Leia." But when it's not an emergency, Ben can seem "afterthought-ish" IMO.

I mean it's more of the absence of what could be written instead of what was written. Han has several detailed thoughts of how wonderful Leia is while he is away, but he has no such thoughts of Ben. There is nothing about any cute thing Ben does at all. Instead, Ben is left with a droid and can get ahold of a power drill. Leia talks about how she misses Han and he talks about how he misses her, but no one ever mentions Ben in all this talk of "missing." There is no "Ben really misses you," or "I can't wait to see Ben." It's all just very sad.

It's like there is this cutesy veneer of normalcy when something really terrible and potentially life-shattering has happened to a baby, but no one knows about it and when his parents are joking about his almost murderer. I just find it not only tragic, but as dark as s***.
@SoloSideCousin

One of the more frustrating things about SW in the current age is that because there is so much material spread across different forms of storytelling and completely different projects, yet all tying into the same narrative, the story and characterizations tend to get scattered across canon as well.

It's great that the hardcore fans who are hyperaware of all these details know what's going on, but there's some pretty crucial stuff happening that the GA might never know. This could end up being pretty awkward in IX if most of the fanbase actually doesn't know key aspects about Ben, Snoke, etc.
avatar
californiagirl
Force Ghost
Force Ghost

Messages : 1019
Likes : 4541
Date d'inscription : 2017-11-12
Age : 24

Back to top Go down

Re: Discussion: Last Shot - A Han and Lando Novel by Daniel José Older

Post by ISeeAnIsland on Sat 21 Apr 2018, 3:09 pm

I find it interesting that in The Last Shot, we're getting another instance of what's more or less "brainwashing" with the droids and their reprogramming. The whole "brainwashing"/kill chip thing was big in the Aftermath series, too.

At the time that Life Debt and Empire's End came out, many of us wondered if this theme would extend to the ST movies, as well. So far, it doesn't seem likely, given no mention of it in TLJ. But I also don't think it's a coincidence that it's shown up again.

We did have Phasma calling Finn "a bug in the system", so perhaps where we'll see this theme (if we see it at all), it'll be with the stormtroopers/anticipated stormtrooper rebellion.
avatar
ISeeAnIsland
Force Ghost
Force Ghost

Messages : 5683
Likes : 29489
Date d'inscription : 2016-03-25
Localisation : Seattle, WA

Back to top Go down

Re: Discussion: Last Shot - A Han and Lando Novel by Daniel José Older

Post by SoloSideCousin on Sat 21 Apr 2018, 3:17 pm

@ISeeAnIsland wrote:I find it interesting that in The Last Shot, we're getting another instance of what's more or less "brainwashing" with the droids and their reprogramming. The whole "brainwashing"/kill chip thing was big in the Aftermath series, too.

At the time that Life Debt and Empire's End came out, many of us wondered if this theme would extend to the ST movies, as well. So far, it doesn't seem likely, given no mention of it in TLJ. But I also don't think it's a coincidence that it's shown up again.

We did have Phasma calling Finn "a bug in the system", so perhaps where we'll see this theme (if we see it at all), it'll be with the stormtroopers/anticipated stormtrooper rebellion.
@ISeeAnIsland

Yes!!! Also, Han gets stoned by a drug and mesmerized by those creatures. Both times he has to be saved/"pulled out of it" by someone else.
avatar
SoloSideCousin
Force Ghost
Force Ghost

Messages : 4641
Likes : 22446
Date d'inscription : 2016-03-25

Back to top Go down

Re: Discussion: Last Shot - A Han and Lando Novel by Daniel José Older

Post by snufkin on Sat 21 Apr 2018, 3:47 pm

@MeadowofAshes - I think you're probably on the right track, that she ends up screwing all of the other characters and taking advantage of Han as her oldest friend. It'd even fit with Kasdan's love of film noir in having Matty Walker in Body Heat get away with what Phyllis Dietrichson in Double Indemnity got punished for because of the Hayes Code. But the warning probably comes from personal experience that gets touched on in Solo. And that warning/advice in turn plays out in the ST as "you have too much of your father's heart in you, young Solo" in that he betrays Snoke for Rey and she ends up leaving him b/c she has her own agenda. Granted Rey is the opposite of a femme fatale (Ben as a homme fatale otoh), but as of the end of TLJ she leaves him and acts to stop him.

Also I don't watch the Dragons and T*ts show, but if Hux is a chance for somebody tired of playing "nice guy" type characters, she'd probably also want to be a femme fatale after being the same character for over 8 years now.
avatar
snufkin
Force Ghost
Force Ghost

Messages : 7882
Likes : 35796
Date d'inscription : 2016-04-16
Localisation : it's in the chorus of Pavement's "Unfair"

Back to top Go down

Re: Discussion: Last Shot - A Han and Lando Novel by Daniel José Older

Post by SoloSideCousin on Sat 21 Apr 2018, 5:58 pm

@snufkin wrote:@MeadowofAshes - I think you're probably on the right track, that she ends up screwing all of the other characters and taking advantage of Han as her oldest friend. It'd even fit with Kasdan's love of film noir in having Matty Walker in Body Heat get away with what Phyllis Dietrichson in Double Indemnity got punished for because of the Hayes Code. But the warning probably comes from personal experience that gets touched on in Solo. And that warning/advice in turn plays out in the ST as "you have too much of your father's heart in you, young Solo" in that he betrays Snoke for Rey and she ends up leaving him b/c she has her own agenda. Granted Rey is the opposite of a femme fatale (Ben as a homme fatale otoh), but as of the end of TLJ she leaves him and acts to stop him.

Also I don't watch the Dragons and T*ts show, but if Hux is a chance for somebody tired of playing "nice guy" type characters, she'd probably also want to be a femme fatale after being the same character for over 8 years now.
@snufkin

Actually Lawrence Kasdan said that Q'ira is remiscent of Jane Greer's character in Out of the Past. That character is treated badly by her gangster lover, ends up with a good guy (Robert Mitchum), but ends up back with the gangster at the end. It doesn't sound like she loves the gangster, more like she went with him for reasons other than love. If that happens to Han, ( who has a lot of self doubt in Last Shot and is brokenhearted by some girl in the flashback parts), he will become very cynical, because it sounds like he and Q'ira grew up together, so he might have trusted her implicitly from childhood and then she jilts/betrays him.
avatar
SoloSideCousin
Force Ghost
Force Ghost

Messages : 4641
Likes : 22446
Date d'inscription : 2016-03-25

Back to top Go down

Re: Discussion: Last Shot - A Han and Lando Novel by Daniel José Older

Post by snufkin on Sat 21 Apr 2018, 6:09 pm

@SoloSideCousin Very interesting! I haven't seen Out of the Past in a long time. But Kasdan is a fan of noir/that type of dynamic given Body Heat and The Bodyguard. So that's great to hear. It'd be interesting hear his full undiluted "this is what I think" from him about Han between writing that and ESB. Because it's clear at the start that in the interim between the first movie and that one, Han has gone from being a mercenary/self-protecting to sticking it out with the Rebellion in part because he's gone from being intrigued by Leia/seeing her as a way to pay off his debts to falling hard for her. And ending up putting himself at great risk to make sure she stays safe once the Empire comes after the base on Hoth. So that's a pretty interesting arc and it has to be clear that he realizes/falls for her because despite her faults, she's a very different person than the one who broke him as a younger man.
avatar
snufkin
Force Ghost
Force Ghost

Messages : 7882
Likes : 35796
Date d'inscription : 2016-04-16
Localisation : it's in the chorus of Pavement's "Unfair"

Back to top Go down

Re: Discussion: Last Shot - A Han and Lando Novel by Daniel José Older

Post by Night Huntress on Sun 22 Apr 2018, 1:05 am

@snufkin

Yes, I truly hope so- If they make clear how different Q'ira is from Leia I'm fine her being a love interest for Han.

I can see for example Q'ira choosing a comfortable, luxurious and safe live over being with Han who she loves but who can't offer her all those things.

That would also explain Han's behavior towards Leia at the beginning in ANH - she is a "princess" used to a privileged...so maybe he thought she would be like Q'ira till he realizes that she doesn't care about materialistic things. But who knows- maybe I'm completely wrong. It's fun to theorizes Very Happy
avatar
Night Huntress
Force Ghost
Force Ghost

Messages : 1706
Likes : 8121
Date d'inscription : 2017-08-24
Age : 36
Localisation : Switzerland

Back to top Go down

Page 3 of 4 Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next

Back to top


 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum