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Post by motherofpearl1 on Mon 15 Oct 2018, 11:38 pm

No mention of his uncle's attempted murder of him. Or his killing Snoke. Or Snoke himself accusing him of 'having too much of your father's heart.'
Ah well.....
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Post by californiagirl on Tue 16 Oct 2018, 1:07 am

@motherofpearl1 I'm genuinely surprised how infrequently I see the fact that Luke held a lightsaber over Ben, or at least how little in depth it is discussed. There was some rage early on about how it supposedly undermines RotJ, but it died down pretty fast.

The current popular opinions are that Luke is either not heroic-awesome enough in TLJ, or that he made a tiny boo boo and Ben, who was already evil, just overreacted. This leaves Luke is pretty unscathed and blameless, and indeed the victim in this situation.

It's really kind of shocking how much this isn't really one of the major talking points of TLJ.
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Post by motherofpearl1 on Tue 16 Oct 2018, 1:30 am

I actually saw that scene as Luke tragically making the same mistake as his father..Anakin turned to the dark side after a vision showed him his wife dying, believing it would save her, when it was actually his 'turn' which killed her. Luke 'foresaw' Ben becoming Kylo Ren so for a brief moment actually considered killing his nephew - and it was this which turned Ben into Kylo.
There was a guy on YouTube who did a great job of explaining how Luke's actions in TLJ, rather than a betrayal of him, was very much in character. He pointed out how he very nearly killed his father in RotJ, and how emotion often got the better of him
I actually think, watching TLJ that they could not have given Luke a better sendoff!
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Post by californiagirl on Tue 16 Oct 2018, 10:59 am

@motherofpearl1 Oh, I love Luke's death too, though I know many people don't. Both Luke and Ben repeat some of the same mistakes Anakin did and the whole trilogy is about learning from the past so as to not repeat it, even if most people didn't interpret TFA or even TLJ in that way. My question was why this isn't really discussed more, given what a huge part of the film it was.

Like, some interpreted the end of TLJ to mean that Luke was justified in his initial fear about Ben already being on the dark side, he should be vanquished, and now Luke is coming back to exact the retribution Kylo deserves. What??? Like they can't let of the good-and-justified Luke killing bad guys narrative. Even though that's the complete opposite of what SW is is.
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Post by motherofpearl1 on Tue 16 Oct 2018, 11:11 am

They obviously forget these words: 'I failed you, Ben. I'm sorry.'
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Post by Chris24601 on Tue 16 Oct 2018, 12:48 pm

@californiagirl wrote:@motherofpearl1 I'm genuinely surprised how infrequently I see the fact that Luke held a lightsaber over Ben, or at least how little in depth it is discussed. There was some rage early on about how it supposedly undermines RotJ, but it died down pretty fast.
@californiagirl
It isn't discussed because among the people who hate TLJ its already been shoved down the memory hole and then covered over with the notion that JJ is going to retcon TLJ so that Luke was actually entirely in the right and Ben was entirely in the wrong (and also that Luke is going to come back to life a la Gandolf). There's no need to discuss what they're 100% convinced will be wiped from canon once Episode IX comes out anyway.

I wish I was joking.

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Post by SanghaRen on Tue 16 Oct 2018, 1:59 pm

@kroi

People really freak out over nothing. I have no idea if the author is pro-redemption or not. The whole “grrrh, mean Kylo, he’s fully gone to the dark side now” so doesn’t add up with the rest that it’d actually be hilarious if she was not. And even if anyone at LF checked, I still see no reason to freak out. His description is so caricatural villain that it looks more like a wink wink to me. But if people want to freak out...

Let’s just take a moment though to acknowledge that he is listed with his birth name.
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Post by snufkin on Tue 16 Oct 2018, 7:34 pm

I’ve definitely read comments (not coincidentally by EU/Luke is their OT fave) that if Luke pulled a weapon on his sister’s child he was supposed to looking after, he probably had a good reason. It’s interesting revisiting Star Wars as an adult because it also gives me flashbacks to being in Sunday School at the same time. People talk about Luke like he was Jesus, and a super groovy New Testament youth pastor version of Luke when this version was seriously Old Testament. The thing is remember what Luke’s own uncle, who wasn’t even his biological uncle but the stepbrother of his father, did for him as a guardian? Including trying to protect him to the point that he died for him?
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Post by motherofpearl1 on Wed 17 Oct 2018, 12:52 am

I read a Tumblr post where the author, although a firm believer in Reylo, had more sympathy for Hux than Kylo, as he/she did not believe Kylo was a victim of child abuse, but Hux was.
I see Hux as the true 'Nazi' of the FO, who not only created Starkiller, but took great pleasure in using it. He showed a sadistic pleasure in mass murder. Kylo ordered the killings at Tekka's village, but it was as much to prove his lack of weakness as executing what he saw as terrorists, in fact I am sure he felt shame and guilt over it - it was why he spared Finn after seeing the same reluctance in him.

I actually think that Kylo might very well have turned the FO into something good if Rey had chosen to stay in return for him sparing her friends. Instead her actions drove him into a fury stemming from hurt. For all her supposed 'saintliness' Rey inadvertently helped create Renperor.
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Post by Saracene on Wed 17 Oct 2018, 4:24 am

@motherofpearl1 Kinda hard to see how Kylo could have turned the FO into something good unless he disbanded it. Which would then make it impossible for him to rule the galaxy like he proposed to Rey.

Renperor was created the minute Kylo glanced at Snoke's empty throne and went hmm.
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Post by motherofpearl1 on Wed 17 Oct 2018, 8:37 am

What he suggested was a 'new order', which sounds very Hitler esque, granted, but I took it to mean mostly something new...as he said, no more Resistance, no more Jedi, no more Sith...maybe no more First Order.
I can't help but think again Kylo was rejected for the cause of 'greater good' ....seems to be the story of his life.
And I'm a bit fed up with the 'noble Resistance' to be honest ....they bore me.
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Post by Armadeus on Wed 17 Oct 2018, 9:01 am

@motherofpearl1 wrote:What he suggested was a 'new order', which sounds very Hitler esque, granted, but I took it to mean mostly something new...as he said, no more Resistance, no more Jedi, no more Sith...maybe no more First Order.
I can't help but think again Kylo was rejected for the cause of 'greater good' ....seems to be the story of his life.
And I'm a bit fed up with the 'noble Resistance' to be honest ....they bore me.
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Ugh, tell me about it.

I'm still waiting for a book/comic/series/something from the FO's point of view

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Post by motherofpearl1 on Wed 17 Oct 2018, 9:46 am

I was hoping with IX we might get to see a less saintly Resistance, but so far according to the Poe comic they are still sticking to the black/white format.
I vividly remember a journalist reviewing TLJ - she loved it but I wonder at her glowing praise for Rey as a 'shining example of purity and goodness.'
That isn't what I want Rey to be. Tiresomely sanctimonious, self righteous heroines are extremely off putting. I'm still struggling with her snooty expression at the end of TLJ, especially after apparently enjoying killing TIEs.
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Post by YeeRees on Wed 17 Oct 2018, 1:22 pm

@Saracene wrote:@motherofpearl1 Kinda hard to see how Kylo could have turned the FO into something good unless he disbanded it. Which would then make it impossible for him to rule the galaxy like he proposed to Rey.

Renperor was created the minute Kylo glanced at Snoke's empty throne and went hmm.
@Saracene

Totally agree.

We have seen how The First Order operate and it’s all there in the name - order above all. It’s a totalitarian organisation.

The First Order take children and indoctrinate them. This happens with the Stormtrooper program, originally implemented under Brendol Hux. The practices he advocated were extreme, to say the least, as detailed in novels such as Empire’s End and Phasma. The young First Order officers were also indoctrinated from childhood. This does leave room for some individuals to break free, as we’ve seen with Finn, but how widespread a rebellion would be is yet to be seen. There is a lot of zeal to overcome as the young officers and older officers from the Empire era that we’ve seen in the Poe Dameron comics do seem committed to the FO cause.

The First Order used Starkiller to obliterate an entire solar system. I’m not currently watching Resistance but I hear one of the characters has strong ties to Hosnian Prime, so it’s not an inconsequential act in ST story terms. Starkiller would have been used to obliterate the Ilenium System too had it not been destroyed. Kylo might have been shown to be conflicted about the destruction but Hux and the rest of the FO would have done it again without hesitation.

Rose Tico described what the First Order did to her home planet, something which has surely happened to other planets too. The FO stripped Rose’s planet of materials to make weapons which were then tested on the population they’d enslaved.

Yeah, there’s not a whole lot of ambiguity here. The First Order is not a force for good in the galaxy. Kylo Ren doesn’t have the support to be anything other than a ruthless Renperor and we have little to suggest he has benevolent intentions at this point. Besides, Hux would have no trouble mounting a coup against someone who wanted to change the foundations of slavery, crime and subjugation that The FO is built on.

There might be room for getting into grey morality in individual Star Wars stories, but ultimately, the franchise is still good versus evil. I personally don’t expect The FO, or characters like Hux, to get anything other than their comeuppance.
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Post by ISeeAnIsland on Wed 17 Oct 2018, 1:47 pm

@YeeRees wrote:
@Saracene wrote:@motherofpearl1 Kinda hard to see how Kylo could have turned the FO into something good unless he disbanded it. Which would then make it impossible for him to rule the galaxy like he proposed to Rey.

Renperor was created the minute Kylo glanced at Snoke's empty throne and went hmm.
@Saracene

Totally agree.

We have seen how The First Order operate and it’s all there in the name - order above all. It’s a totalitarian organisation.

The First Order take children and indoctrinate them. This happens with the Stormtrooper program, originally implemented under Brendol Hux. The practices he advocated were extreme, to say the least, as detailed in novels such as Empire’s End and Phasma. The young First Order officers were also indoctrinated from childhood. This does leave room for some individuals to break free, as we’ve seen with Finn, but how widespread a rebellion would be is yet to be seen. There is a lot of zeal to overcome as the young officers and older officers from the Empire era that we’ve seen in the Poe Dameron comics do seem committed to the FO cause.

The First Order used Starkiller to obliterate an entire solar system. I’m not currently watching Resistance but I hear one of the characters has strong ties to Hosnian Prime, so it’s not an inconsequential act in ST story terms. Starkiller would have been used to obliterate the Ilenium System too had it not been destroyed. Kylo might have been shown to be conflicted about the destruction but Hux and the rest of the FO would have done it again without hesitation.

Rose Tico described what the First Order did to her home planet, something which has surely happened to other planets too. The FO stripped Rose’s planet of materials to make weapons which were then tested on the population they’d enslaved.

Yeah, there’s not a whole lot of ambiguity here. The First Order is not a force for good in the galaxy. Kylo Ren doesn’t have the support to be anything other than a ruthless Renperor and we have little to suggest he has benevolent intentions at this point. Besides, Hux would have no trouble mounting a coup against someone who wanted to change the foundations of slavery, crime and subjugation that The FO is built on.

There might be room for getting into grey morality in individual Star Wars stories, but ultimately, the franchise is still good versus evil. I personally don’t expect The FO, or characters like Hux, to get anything other than their comeuppance.
@YeeRees

The problem is that you can't really add to Kylo's body count much more at this point without getting anything other than a last-minute Vader-esque redemption. And that pretty much kills the chance of romantic Reylo happening.

He's going to need to be at least conflicted (e.g. "heavy is the head that wears the crown") at the start of IX, rather than being a ruthless Renporer if we're going to have time for a meaningful redemption (and therefore Reylo) to happen in any sort of satisfying way.
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Post by tukicarreno on Wed 17 Oct 2018, 2:43 pm

@ISeeAnIsland wrote:
@YeeRees wrote:
@Saracene wrote:@motherofpearl1 Kinda hard to see how Kylo could have turned the FO into something good unless he disbanded it. Which would then make it impossible for him to rule the galaxy like he proposed to Rey.

Renperor was created the minute Kylo glanced at Snoke's empty throne and went hmm.
@Saracene

Totally agree.

We have seen how The First Order operate and it’s all there in the name - order above all. It’s a totalitarian organisation.

The First Order take children and indoctrinate them. This happens with the Stormtrooper program, originally implemented under Brendol Hux. The practices he advocated were extreme, to say the least, as detailed in novels such as Empire’s End and Phasma. The young First Order officers were also indoctrinated from childhood. This does leave room for some individuals to break free, as we’ve seen with Finn, but how widespread a rebellion would be is yet to be seen. There is a lot of zeal to overcome as the young officers and older officers from the Empire era that we’ve seen in the Poe Dameron comics do seem committed to the FO cause.

The First Order used Starkiller to obliterate an entire solar system. I’m not currently watching Resistance but I hear one of the characters has strong ties to Hosnian Prime, so it’s not an inconsequential act in ST story terms. Starkiller would have been used to obliterate the Ilenium System too had it not been destroyed. Kylo might have been shown to be conflicted about the destruction but Hux and the rest of the FO would have done it again without hesitation.

Rose Tico described what the First Order did to her home planet, something which has surely happened to other planets too. The FO stripped Rose’s planet of materials to make weapons which were then tested on the population they’d enslaved.

Yeah, there’s not a whole lot of ambiguity here. The First Order is not a force for good in the galaxy. Kylo Ren doesn’t have the support to be anything other than a ruthless Renperor and we have little to suggest he has benevolent intentions at this point. Besides, Hux would have no trouble mounting a coup against someone who wanted to change the foundations of slavery, crime and subjugation that The FO is built on.

There might be room for getting into grey morality in individual Star Wars stories, but ultimately, the franchise is still good versus evil. I personally don’t expect The FO, or characters like Hux, to get anything other than their comeuppance.
@YeeRees

The problem is that you can't really add to Kylo's body count much more at this point without getting anything other than a last-minute Vader-esque redemption. And that pretty much kills the chance of romantic Reylo happening.

He's going to need to be at least conflicted (e.g. "heavy is the head that wears the crown") at the start of IX, rather than being a ruthless Renporer if we're going to have time for a meaningful redemption (and therefore Reylo) to happen in any sort of satisfying way.
@ISeeAnIsland

Oh man. I don't want to worry about this scenario. Do you guys really think JJ would give up on Reylo in IX? I just can't believe he would do that in favor of the plain old good versus evil storyline. Neutral That's why I am hoping Kylo does come back to the light by act 2 so we can have Reylo well done in act 3. Please let it be. *prayer circle*.
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Post by californiagirl on Wed 17 Oct 2018, 2:59 pm

@tukicarreno wrote:
@ISeeAnIsland wrote:
@YeeRees wrote:
@Saracene wrote:@motherofpearl1 Kinda hard to see how Kylo could have turned the FO into something good unless he disbanded it. Which would then make it impossible for him to rule the galaxy like he proposed to Rey.

Renperor was created the minute Kylo glanced at Snoke's empty throne and went hmm.
@Saracene

Totally agree.

We have seen how The First Order operate and it’s all there in the name - order above all. It’s a totalitarian organisation.

The First Order take children and indoctrinate them. This happens with the Stormtrooper program, originally implemented under Brendol Hux. The practices he advocated were extreme, to say the least, as detailed in novels such as Empire’s End and Phasma. The young First Order officers were also indoctrinated from childhood. This does leave room for some individuals to break free, as we’ve seen with Finn, but how widespread a rebellion would be is yet to be seen. There is a lot of zeal to overcome as the young officers and older officers from the Empire era that we’ve seen in the Poe Dameron comics do seem committed to the FO cause.

The First Order used Starkiller to obliterate an entire solar system. I’m not currently watching Resistance but I hear one of the characters has strong ties to Hosnian Prime, so it’s not an inconsequential act in ST story terms. Starkiller would have been used to obliterate the Ilenium System too had it not been destroyed. Kylo might have been shown to be conflicted about the destruction but Hux and the rest of the FO would have done it again without hesitation.

Rose Tico described what the First Order did to her home planet, something which has surely happened to other planets too. The FO stripped Rose’s planet of materials to make weapons which were then tested on the population they’d enslaved.

Yeah, there’s not a whole lot of ambiguity here. The First Order is not a force for good in the galaxy. Kylo Ren doesn’t have the support to be anything other than a ruthless Renperor and we have little to suggest he has benevolent intentions at this point. Besides, Hux would have no trouble mounting a coup against someone who wanted to change the foundations of slavery, crime and subjugation that The FO is built on.

There might be room for getting into grey morality in individual Star Wars stories, but ultimately, the franchise is still good versus evil. I personally don’t expect The FO, or characters like Hux, to get anything other than their comeuppance.
@YeeRees

The problem is that you can't really add to Kylo's body count much more at this point without getting anything other than a last-minute Vader-esque redemption. And that pretty much kills the chance of romantic Reylo happening.

He's going to need to be at least conflicted (e.g. "heavy is the head that wears the crown") at the start of IX, rather than being a ruthless Renporer if we're going to have time for a meaningful redemption (and therefore Reylo) to happen in any sort of satisfying way.
@ISeeAnIsland

Oh man. I don't want to worry about this scenario. Do you guys really think JJ would give up on Reylo in IX? I just can't believe he would do that in favor of the plain old good versus evil storyline. Neutral  That's why I am hoping Kylo does come back to the light by act 2 so we can have Reylo well done in act 3. Please let it be. *prayer circle*.
@tukicarreno

I would imagine it would be no later than act 2, possibly even some early signs in act 1. TLJ itself is act 2 of the ST, so the end of TLJ, the Crait meltdown, is Kylo's lowest point. I doubt he will ever top that. It's possible he doesn't have a body count in IX at all, unless it's bad guys as the PG and Snoke were.

This is also why I am uncertain he will fight Rey again, and he certainly won't defeat her, because the story can't afford him doing angry/violent or even unlikable things this late in the narrative. The audience has to believe he is a changed person to root for him to be a hero in the first place.

I wouldn't worry, JJ doesn't do nihilism.
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Post by Mila95 on Wed 17 Oct 2018, 3:05 pm

I don't think it's going to be either a ruthless emperor or a benevolent one.I also don't believe the FO will be shown in any positive light because he's the leader now.I could see some conflict with the Resistance and Rey because of her thing with Kylo tho.Idk I feel like even with being supreme leader Kylo will keep being motivated by his personal issues,his family and Rey and we won't be getting a whole lot on his politics like we haven't so far.I could see them pinning the worst of the FO crimes on Hux and making a contrast with him and Kylo who isn't actually committed to the FO ideology.And I wouldn't be really surprised if he is out of the Supreme leader position in act two.

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Post by Saracene on Wed 17 Oct 2018, 3:15 pm

They can get around the whole thing by simply not addressing the details of Kylo's rule and concentrating solely on the FO vs Resistance conflict. I wouldn't be surprised if the only reference is something like "the FO rules the galaxy with an iron hand" in the opening crawl.

The FO already underwent an image change between TFA and TLJ; they're still an evil force but the movie got rid of the blatant nods to Nazis that the first movie had. I can't help but think it's because Kylo was going to become its leader and they didn't want to stress the parallels this time around. Also, when TLJ shows suffering citizens like the stable kids, they're not actually suffering directly because of what the FO does.
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Post by rawpowah on Wed 17 Oct 2018, 3:32 pm

My guess is he'll be Supreme Leader until like halfway through the movie. Gives JJ enough time to milk the novelty of a Skywalker ruling the galaxy, Ben achieving what Vader never did etc. And then it leaves enough time for whatever is planned once Ben switches sides.
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Post by Chris24601 on Wed 17 Oct 2018, 4:03 pm

My hunch is he flips at the end of Act I/start of Act II.

Standard storytelling structure is that Act I sets up story. This is where we'll see what state the Galaxy, First Order and Resistance are in after the time jump. Near the end of Act I is when you drop your "inciting incident" into the mix; some element of change that causes the protagonists to react as the status quo is disrupted.

My hunch is this inciting incident will be the revelation of some First Order project or plan that Kylo was unaware of (perhaps because it was going on in the Unknown Regions or because Hux wanted to use its reveal to his advantage against Kylo. Regardless, Kylo will be repulsed by this plan, but not have the ability to stop it on his own (either because Hux will time the reveal with staging a coup or because Kylo knows if he opposes the plan his support within the First Order will evaporate and he'll lose control to Hux). Regardless the end result will be Hux having the upper hand and Kylo having to work against the First Order's interests for the sake of his own conscience.

Regardless of what it is... whatever changes at the end of Act I from the status quo established throughout Act I will be what sends Kylo on the path to redemption... at least if Ben's redemption is going to be the main story of the film.

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Post by Saracene on Wed 17 Oct 2018, 4:52 pm

@Chris24601 It's kinda hard to see though what plan could be worse than annihilating the entire planets and billions of lives in TFA. And that one didn't make Kylo defect to the Resistance.

Also, Kylo seems to model his leadership on Snoke, i.e. complete authoritarian control through intimidation and fear. If he finds out about a plan he's unhappy with, he'd just veto it. Why, because I'm a Supreme Leader and I said so and I'll force choke anyone who's objecting.
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Post by Night Huntress on Wed 17 Oct 2018, 4:58 pm

@Saracene

what do you think will happen in IX? You seem to doubt every glimpse of redemptive quality in Kylo- so the only option in that case would be a "last minute sacrifice and than death" just like Vader. Very boring, predictable and no Reylo possible imo. Nope

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Post by ISeeAnIsland on Wed 17 Oct 2018, 5:49 pm

@Chris24601 wrote:My hunch is he flips at the end of Act I/start of Act II.

Standard storytelling structure is that Act I sets up story. This is where we'll see what state the Galaxy, First Order and Resistance are in after the time jump. Near the end of Act I is when you drop your "inciting incident" into the mix; some element of change that causes the protagonists to react as the status quo is disrupted.

My hunch is this inciting incident will be the revelation of some First Order project or plan that Kylo was unaware of (perhaps because it was going on in the Unknown Regions or because Hux wanted to use its reveal to his advantage against Kylo. Regardless, Kylo will be repulsed by this plan, but not have the ability to stop it on his own (either because Hux will time the reveal with staging a coup or because Kylo knows if he opposes the plan his support within the First Order will evaporate and he'll lose control to Hux). Regardless the end result will be Hux having the upper hand and Kylo having to work against the First Order's interests for the sake of his own conscience.

Regardless of what it is... whatever changes at the end of Act I from the status quo established throughout Act I will be what sends Kylo on the path to redemption... at least if Ben's redemption is going to be the main story of the film.
@Chris24601

I agree that this seems to be the sort of story structure that they're setting up. And I know that you're loathe to bring in outside canon sources (e.g. novels, etc), but all of the novelizations have painted Hux as the one who's really running the war machines and that he's got other technology that he's developing that's only been alluded to. It also wouldn't be much of a stretch--requiring only a line or two of exposition dialogue--to explain if they were going to bring something like Hux having another super weapon in development into IX. And it also provides the perfect opportunity for Kylo to finally do the "right" thing without requiring him to necessarily "agree" with the Resistance.
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Post by YeeRees on Wed 17 Oct 2018, 5:53 pm

I’m still fairly optimistic about Kylo/Ben’s redemption and further reylo developments.

Kylo Ren is Supreme Leader of The First Order now, the buffer of Snoke is gone. Whatever the FO does is fully his responsibility. He was guilty by association before regarding Hosnian Prime but he’s the one who will be giving the orders now.

The best options for redemption that I can see are a small time jump from TLJ to Ep IX, no significant action taking place offscreen just a unspecific status update in the opening crawl as @Saracene suggests. A kind of stagnant state where Kylo is attempting to consolidate his support inside and outside of the FO, without any further atrocities, or having the FO already on the verge of a civil war within would be better for redemption IMO. If Kylo is succeeding as Renperor (I still cannot see Benperor happening at all) the more likely there will be a late-in-the-day Vader redemption, or even, no redemption.

I can personally see options outside of redemption and reylo HEA but none that I would find as satisfying a conclusion to the Skywalker Saga. I’m more confident of redemption than reylo but I’m hoping for both.
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