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Post by Saracene on Thu 18 Oct - 0:20

@Night Huntress wrote:@Saracene

what do you think will happen in IX? You seem to doubt every glimpse of redemptive quality in Kylo- so the only option in that case would be a "last minute sacrifice and than death" just like Vader. Very boring, predictable and no Reylo possible imo. Nope

@Night Huntress

I fully expect redemption and romantic Reylo, and I expect it to begin way earlier than the last ten minutes, perhaps at half-point.

I simply expect the catalyst for Kylo's redemptive storyline to be deeply personal and most likely revolve around Rey. His entire story so far has revolved around personal stuff like his family and Rey. I don't think that his redemption will be prompted by more abstract things like the greater good of the galaxy or social conscience. Apart from everything else, however admirable these reasons are they're boring in terms of storytelling and personal reasons are just more powerful and easier to connect with. I mean, one of the big reasons the Resistance storyline is so meh is that none of the characters (apart from Rose) have any personal motivations for being in the Resistance, it's all just abstract noble stuff. Finn's friendship with Rey in TFA is generally well-liked, Finn learning to care about the Cause in TLJ is one big yawn.
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Post by tukicarreno on Thu 18 Oct - 1:27

@ISeeAnIsland wrote:I agree that this seems to be the sort of story structure that they're setting up. And I know that you're loathe to bring in outside canon sources (e.g. novels, etc), but all of the novelizations have painted Hux as the one who's really running the war machines and that he's got other technology that he's developing that's only been alluded to. It also wouldn't be much of a stretch--requiring only a line or two of exposition dialogue--to explain if they were going to bring something like Hux having another super weapon in development into IX. And it also provides the perfect opportunity for Kylo to finally do the "right" thing without requiring him to necessarily "agree" with the Resistance.

This is exactly what I was thinking they will do in order for both redemption and Rely to happen. So here's hoping.


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Post by Chris24601 on Thu 18 Oct - 3:38

@ISeeAnIsland
To clarify, I’m okay with stuff from other media turning up in the films, I’m just not a fan of relying on elements of supporting media that requires significant knowledge of the supporting media or lengthy exposition about what happened in the supporting media in order to understand its relevance to the plot.

Saw Gerrera in “Rogue One” worked great because while his appearances in other media added nuance, general audiences could appreciate the character simply on the material within “Rogue One” itself.

So I agree with you that Hux revealing he has the support of the First Order and/or there’s been a secret project under Hux’s supervision so horrible that even Kylo would balk at would work fine because they do not require additional supporting media for context.

Frankly, Kylo NOT being present for Hux’s pre-Starkiller fire rally, the officers and even stormtroopers being afraid of his temper tantrums in TFA and post-throne room in TLJ and Hux’s final look of contempt as Kylo collapased on the Crait base floor makes Hux simply declaring “I have the full support of the First Order’s military”... particularly if Kylo is still looking like a bit of a hot mess and/or shown to be rather reclusive... doesn’t take much of a sale at all.

Likewise, just a “Do you think the Supreme Leader shared his every secret with you?” isn’t out of step with how things were presented in the films (including the fact that Snoke himself didn’t know about Hux’s hyperspace tracking system until Hux explained it to him).

In addition, both such twists can be presented from Kylo’s point of view as revelations via “show” rather than tell. We can see Kylo’s reaction as he learns of the project for the first time. We can further see his alarm when orders he gives to members of the First Order are ignored the moment Hux finally overrules him on something (demonstrating Hux’s control rather than just telling us he has it).

For an example; Kylo learns of Project McGuffin and has Hux brought to him to answer for creating something so heinous without informing him. Hux replies that he got authority from Snoke and that Kylo wasn’t sufficiently in charge to deserve to learn of its existence. Kylo then orders other officers to take Hux into custody, but with a wave of Hux’s hand every officer and stormtrooper in the room instead trains their blasters on Kylo as Hux explains how unpopular Kylo truly is within the First Order and how Hux actually controls the First Order and only indulged Kylo while he was still useful to the cause, but now that usefulness has passed.

People who read the tie-in material have the extra context, but the scene still works without you ever having to have seen the tie-in material.

You could probably even weave in further tie-in elements for those people without needing to supply a lot of exposition. For example, have either the world Finn, Poe and Chewie are on recruiting/activating the Resistance cell there be whatever world it was they were trying to recruit in the Poe Dameron comics.

That said, if they really wanted to tie story elements together, they’d have Kylo first learn of the project/plot because he had to turn up to survey the damage inflicted by Poe’s group during the cold open personally. That would give even deeper meaning to their actions than just assembling a fighing force to fight the First Order.

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Post by snufkin on Thu 18 Oct - 4:43

He may try to act like he's Snoke and Force Choke/intimidate Hux and various underlings into letting him wear the Red Power Scrunchie, but he's not the next Snoke. If he had actually been the apprentice Snoke had groomed him to be, he would've killed Rey. Either at Snoke's orders or after they'd got rid of the Praetorian Guard. Neither happened and what followed after Rey balked at his "Let's burn down the galaxy and rule the ashes" idea for date night. So last act was him pulling Plan B out of his a** and being the villain (interesting use of word there Rian considering Kasdan's mantra being that Kurosawa quote) he thought he should be thanks to the Luke, Snoke, and the hubris of his family's 'legacy.' They're going to play with the "what if" scenarios from the previous trilogies, if he'd seized power but she refuses to go along with it and fights on the other side to oppose him. Until evidence to the contrary, I expect IX to play with those ideas in tandem with Space Hamlet, "heavy hangs the crowd," and "Oh s***, what will happen if/when Hux figures out what happened."

Also in terms of speculation, besides Kasdan quoting of Kurosawa about heroes versus villains that heroes constantly evolve while villains are fixed. LF employees seem to repeat a variation of what George Lucas said about Vader. I suspect that's going to inform Supreme Leader Kylo Ren and his Space Bae Rey of Jakku

George Lucas wrote:It really has to do with learning. Children teach you compassion. They teach you to love unconditionally. Anakin can’t be redeemed for all the pain and suffering he’s caused. He doesn’t right the wrongs, but he stops the horror. The end of the Saga is simply Anakin saying, ‘I care about this person, regardless of what it means to me. I will throw away everything that I have, everything that I have grown to love - primarily the Emperor - and throw away my life, to save this person. And I’m doing this because he has faith in me, loves me despite all the horrible things I’ve done. I broke his mother’s heart, but he still cares about me, and I can’t let that die.’
x





Don't get me wrong, I'd love it if we had a scenario where he turned out to be as good a ruler as his mother. It'd be a big middle finger to all the characters from Bloodline who conspired to keep her from being First Senator. I just don't see that as likely beyond him acting as a spoke in the wheel against whatever machinations Hux has planned and ultimately bringing down what's left of the Empire. Somehow Rey will be involved, it'll have to do with his feelings for her, but this time be self-sacrificing to protect her the way Han put himself on the line for him in TFA (too much of his father's heart in him).


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Post by motherofpearl1 on Thu 18 Oct - 5:52

Despite its success,, a lot of people noticed the similarities between TFA and ANH. We have the 'good' Resistance against the 'bad' Empire/FO. We have the Force sensitive raised unaware on a desert. We have the planet destroying super weapon, the black masked villain, the sinister overlord. But then we see a compassionate stormtrooper, and the hint of a possible romance between heroine and villain. These were the qualities that elevated TFA into something new. Without them it would have been a rehash of ANH.
TLJ developed these plotlines further. We had the likeable cocky pilot making very big mistakes, the 'daring rescue mission' turning into a complete disaster, and the 'villain' turning out to be a victim. This is why TLJ is my fave of all the W movies. It dates to be different. One of my favourite scenes is DJ showing Finn that the Resistance bought it's weapons from Canto Night, as did the FO. Wonder what Rose would have thought of that?

I'm sorry, but I want more from IX than/good guys v bad guys. We already know Kylo is regretting his choice. I want to see Rey having the same epiphany. I am already starting to find the Resistance boring. And I really want to know how everyone will react about the Force bond.
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Post by Saracene on Thu 18 Oct - 6:15

@motherofpearl1 If the next movie does nothing with the force bond and the potential rift it could create between Rey and her Resistance pals, it would be a huge waste IMO. I really don't expect the Resistance to be portrayed as anything else than straightforward heroes, so Rey's secret connection with the enemy seems like the only source of conflict there.
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Post by Night Huntress on Thu 18 Oct - 7:43

@Saracene wrote:
@Night Huntress wrote:@Saracene

what do you think will happen in IX? You seem to doubt every glimpse of redemptive quality in Kylo- so the only option in that case would be a "last minute sacrifice and than death" just like Vader. Very boring, predictable and no Reylo possible imo. Nope

@Night Huntress

I fully expect redemption and romantic Reylo, and I expect it to begin way earlier than the last ten minutes, perhaps at half-point.

I simply expect the catalyst for Kylo's redemptive storyline to be deeply personal and most likely revolve around Rey. His entire story so far has revolved around personal stuff like his family and Rey. I don't think that his redemption will be prompted by more abstract things like the greater good of the galaxy or social conscience. Apart from everything else, however admirable these reasons are they're boring in terms of storytelling and personal reasons are just more powerful and easier to connect with. I mean, one of the big reasons the Resistance storyline is so meh is that none of the characters (apart from Rose) have any personal motivations for being in the Resistance, it's all just abstract noble stuff. Finn's friendship with Rey in TFA is generally well-liked, Finn learning to care about the Cause in TLJ is one big yawn.
@Saracene

I disagree- if Rey is the only reason his redemption is triggered it's not a redemption at all. He has to see his mistakes- he has to acknowledge that what he did (and probably still does in IX) was wrong. He has to change, otherwise the redemption will be shallow and without substance.

Of course Rey should be one trigger and I hope they manage to still involve Leia as well- and that's very personal. But if he is still all about "I want to rule the galaxy and I have no compassion for other being beside Rey & my mother" that would be horrible imo.

Doesn't need to be boring "all about the greater good of the galaxy BS" we have with the resistance.
For example- showing compassion towards people he has no personal relationship with...

Imagine a scene where the FO is invading a village but instead of "kill them all" like he commanded in TFA he says something like "spare them- there are of no consequence for us..." you know, little things like that.
Wouldn't make him a benevolent ruler at all- but show how all the events from TFA & TLJ did have some affect on him.

But that's just my personal preference of course. I think a man changing his whole ideology only for a woman is very cheesy and outdated.
It would also send a strange message. I can already hear the Antis whining about how young girls now think they can change a man who is evil and that's so toxic blah blah...not that I care about what they say, but it would feel wrong for me as well.
He has to change for himself and need to develop empathy - learn how to be selfless and care about more than just his personal agenda.
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Post by Saracene on Thu 18 Oct - 8:47

@Night Huntress I agree that Kylo needs to seriously rethink his life in order for the redemption to really work. That's why it would need to start earlier than the last ten minutes; he can't just save Rey at the very end of the film and boom he's redeemed. I just think that the initial catalyst that will knock him off his current path will be about his personal connections. That it will mostly be about Rey is IMO also about the fact that Rey is the main character of the series and Kylo's most important choices in TLJ likewise revolved around her; I just don't see his growth happening because of some random villagers the audience doesn't care about.
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Post by Night Huntress on Thu 18 Oct - 10:36

@Saracene

the villagers were just an example Wink It's not that we particularly care for them as characters, they would be just a plot device to show without telling that Kylo did change from his destructive careless ways from TFA. Remember you need the audience to root for his redemption- also the ones who aren't into reylo or think he had gone full evil after the throne room scene and his tantrum on Crait.

Of course they won't show the FO or any form of dictatorship to be a good thing! Never! I have absolutely no illusions about that. It's a fun scenario for fan fiction but that's it. But that's not what I understand under the term "Benperor" for me that means small personal choices of Kylo/Ben to be good or selfless but not the FO as a ruling government.
I hope one of the reasons Kylo/Ben leaves the FO or betrays them or whatever, is because he do realize it's not what he really wanted at all.
His relationship with Rey being one major influence but not the only one....
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Post by motherofpearl1 on Thu 18 Oct - 12:20

Interesting if they both ended up leaving!
The killing of Lor San Tekka's people is notable, at least for me, because I actually saw it as an insight into Kylo's character that isn't what it initially seems. On the surface, it seems to show him as a callous, one note villain.
But watch what happens afterwards. Finn is unable to take part in the slaughter, Kylo sees this - and spares him, an act which has tremendous repercussions throughout the rest of the movie. Why did he spare him?
Because....he saw himself in him. Kylo was conflicted even then. I suspect he found ordering a group of unarmed people to be shot dead disturbed him, even if he saw them as terrorists. He sought repeatedly to quash the light in his soul, yet he couldn't. Killing the villagers was meant to have the same effect as murdering his father. And I suspect, it was as much of a failure. He probably told himself Finn would 'come around' to his way of thinking and become an obedient little soldier. So when Finn did exactly the opposite it made Kylo feel betrayed....hence his hatred of Finn.
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Post by MaddieDove on Thu 18 Oct - 18:56

I think also that his first angry outburst when he heard about a stormtrooper escaping with MF and the droid was in fact to the great extent an anger towards himself, because he let him go. He was angry because he committed a mistake - if he reacted on time and disciplined him, Finn perhaps wouldn't be in a position to escape. He was angry because he saw himself weak, his compassion in that moment cost him dearly later (and I'm sure the filmmaker wanted to convey an ambivalence that could be interpreted as an act of compassion). Like, how stupid I am, weak and foolish, again, this pull to the light, again, makes me do foolish things. Again. And he goes to gather some dark side courage by talking to granddaddy's mask.
Also, I think it is not by accident that they showed us that his order to kill the villagers were given following Phasma's demand (Sir, the villagers?). If she hasn't asked, perhaps he would not have given that order.
The breadcrumbs were there from his first scene.
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Post by SanghaRen on Thu 18 Oct - 19:47

@Night Huntress wrote:@Saracene

the villagers were just an example Wink It's not that we particularly care for them as characters, they would be just a plot device to show without telling that Kylo did change from his destructive careless ways from TFA. Remember you need the audience to root for his redemption- also the ones who aren't into reylo or think he had gone full evil after the throne room scene and his tantrum on Crait.

Of course they won't show the FO or any form of dictatorship to be a good thing! Never! I have absolutely no illusions about that. It's a fun scenario for fan fiction but that's it. But that's not what I understand under the term "Benperor" for me that means small personal choices of Kylo/Ben to be good or selfless but not the FO as a ruling government.
I hope one of the reasons Kylo/Ben leaves the FO or betrays them or whatever, is because he do realize it's not what he really wanted at all.
His relationship with Rey being one major influence but not the only one....
@Night Huntress

I agree with you on the redemption for a girl being shallow. It doesn’t sit well with me neither.

What I don’t understand is why we are still talking about personal catalysts. They already happened. He did not press the trigger on his mom, he saved Rey’s life, he got a well-deserved kick in the a** from his uncle to avoid more damage and still carries around the weight of murdering his father. We see him at the end crouching alone with the dice. In that sense I really don’t see what his personal connections can do more without it looking like a repeat. To me the logical continuation is him having digested all of it and showing signs of change and compassion to others early on in IX. It doesn’t mean he has to be the benevolent king. I actually could see a village type of situation where he spares the lives in a “we don’t need to kill them, they learned their lesson” type of way. Heck it could be not punishing a Rey-like scavenger girl for stealing whatever if you want to link it to the girl.
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Post by Night Huntress on Thu 18 Oct - 20:42

@SanghaRen

yes, exactly! Claps Claps Claps

I thought I was the only one who perceived it like that.
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Post by Chris24601 on Thu 18 Oct - 21:05

@SanghaRen
Indeed, I don't see much more of a need for personal catalysts... but I do think he'll need some type of kick in the pants to get him out of autopilot. Its one thing to realize you aren't happy where you are, its another to actually start to step out of the comfort zone of the familiar... particularly if you don't have something impelling you to act. "I can deal with it tomorrow" is the daily mantra of many who are in a downward spiral.

Thus there will almost certainly be some event near the end of Act I that will perform the kicking; provide the realization that he can't keep putting it off; time is running out and the window is closing forever on making some type of real change.

It could be a horrible unknown project of the First Order that finally makes him say "I can't be part of this anymore." It could be something closer to home like Leia dying near the end of Act I and Kylo realizing that Rey is now literally the only person left in the galaxy who might even give half a damn about him and unless he does something he'll lose that too.

Regardless, Kylo has all the signs in place that he can change his path... he just needs the realization that he can't wait forever before he starts to take that other path and that's almost certainly what Act I will provide in some form or another.

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Post by Starliteprism on Thu 18 Oct - 22:07

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Post by KiraRen2015 on Fri 19 Oct - 4:01

Hot Toys has revealed their 1/6 TLJ Kylo Ren figure. I find it hilarious and awesome that they recreated the famous "thigh grab" to promote it on Instagram. They know what they are doing!

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Post by motherofpearl1 on Fri 19 Oct - 6:04

Wow - it's more explicit than the film!
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Post by tukicarreno on Fri 19 Oct - 13:55

Are Hot Toys collectibles approved by LF and Disney?
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Post by Starliteprism on Fri 19 Oct - 14:25

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Post by Kylo Rey on Sat 20 Oct - 1:54

LFL/Disney had a Kylo Ren joke removed from Wreck-It Ralph 2:

As directors Rich Moore and Phil Johnston and head of story Josie Trinidad explain it, Disney declined to run with a certain Kylo Ren gag.
“At one point we had a joke about Kylo Ren being kind of a spoiled child,” laughs Moore. “We went to Lucasfilm and said, here’s what we’re doing. And they said, well, we’d prefer that you don’t show him as a spoiled child. You know, he is our villain, and we’d prefer you don’t do that. So we were respectful of that.”

https://m.uk.ign.com/articles/2018/10/19/the-kylo-ren-joke-that-had-to-be-changed-for-ralph-breaks-the-internet?watch

LFL are very protective and hyper aware of how Kylo is portrayed in other media. They don’t like to see Kylo portrayed in an unflattering light, even as a satirical jab. Of course it’s possible that the joke was changed to another one that has remained in the movie. Those who posited that this may be why Adam didn’t do another Matt skit on SNL may have been on the money. And why we never seem to get bloopers/very little BTS footage with the little stuff we get being very heavily curated.

Also, if they get that defensive over something like this, LFL are never going to see eye to eye on the very common unflattering interpretations of the character which many seem to believe is what they are actually creating here (white, privileged toxic masculinity etc), despite JJ, Rian, KK and those involved never once coming out and lending credence to or validating that viewpoint.
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Post by MrsWindu on Sat 20 Oct - 9:57

Where exactly is John en-route to though ???

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Post by rawpowah on Sat 20 Oct - 9:58

Jordan?
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Post by rawpowah on Sat 20 Oct - 18:16

It's indeed Jordan. John just got there.

http://seavici.tumblr.com/post/179248007379/someone-is-in-jordan-uh-wadi-rum-is-where

Do we know where Adam is?
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Post by vaderito on Sat 20 Oct - 18:36

@rawpowah wrote:It's indeed Jordan. John just got there.

http://seavici.tumblr.com/post/179248007379/someone-is-in-jordan-uh-wadi-rum-is-where

Do we know where Adam is?
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My guess is that everyone will be in Jordan. I'd say Adam probably arrived right after Oct 7 (his last recorded London appearance). daisy may have been there even earlier if that Jordan report from Oct 5 is indeed her getting a camel tour. And we know that he had to cancel something in early November so all lines up to be this particular shoot.

so what does that mean for the story? if we have Kylo and Resistance side on the same set, some big battleground maybe? or negotiations? or whatever that brings those sides face to face for better or worse.

also, if some actors filmed earlier, it's possible that actors arriving later corresponds with their characters arriving later on the scene.

we really can't know without an actual report who's there. we will only know from actors with social media accounts or if they post images with other actors.
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Discussions: Tweets/Instagram - Page 38 Empty Re: Discussions: Tweets/Instagram

Post by vaderito on Sat 20 Oct - 19:53

so Jordan timeline:

Sep 16: A tweet claiming that the crew was flying to Jordan on Monday (Sep 17) and would film there for 3 months since that day (so ending mid Nov, Nov 17)

Oct 5: A Wadi Rum camper stumbles across the set, takes photos. Says that he saw speeders including one very similar to Rey's, a woman similar to Daisy being given a camel tour with 2 security trucks following, and that one road was closed because they were shooting something with pyrotechnics.

Bonus: Oct 6 - Adam cancels Cambridge Union speech due to "massive schedule change", is last seen in London on Oct 7 at some other event.

Oct 10: someone who checked in InterCon Hotel in Amman tweets that cast and crew are there but he hasn't seen anyone himself.

Oct 10: Aqaba tweet account claims that cast will be staying in Aqaba hotel

Bonus: Oct 16 Adam is MIA at the London Festival premiere of Man Who Killed Don Quixote

Oct 19: John Boyega arrives to Aqaba

So it seems to me that some cast members (and likely JJ, don't think this is the second unit shoot) were there well before Boyega.


Last edited by vaderito on Sat 20 Oct - 20:46; edited 1 time in total
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Date d'inscription : 2016-03-25

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