Discussion: Finn/FN-2187/John Boyega

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Post by Saracene on Sat 06 Aug 2016, 7:02 am

Finn liberating the other stormtroopers would have been a cool storyline, I'm just not sure they're going to go there when his stormtrooper background was so immaterial in TFA and had no real bearing on either Finn or the general view of the stormtroopers. For this storyline to work, the movies would have to really embrace the "stormtroopers are real people too" notion, with all the implications of it including the morality of the good guys killing victims of brainwashing from birth, instead of faceless figures the good guys can just shoot up and cheer. That's a lot of backtracking to do from where things were in TFA.
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Post by FrolickingFizzgig on Sat 06 Aug 2016, 8:26 am

@Saracene wrote:Finn liberating the other stormtroopers would have been a cool storyline, I'm just not sure they're going to go there when his stormtrooper background was so immaterial in TFA and had no real bearing on either Finn or the general view of the stormtroopers. For this storyline to work, the movies would have to really embrace the "stormtroopers are real people too" notion, with all the implications of it including the morality of the good guys killing victims of brainwashing from birth, instead of faceless figures the good guys can just shoot up and cheer. That's a lot of backtracking to do from where things were in TFA.
@Saracene
The thing about that is they did acknowledge it. There are at least four different scenes in this film that focus entirely around the notion that Stormtroopers are people/are victims in their own right in this trilogy (and separate material has only added added to it). Finn's sloppy characterization is what ended up getting in the way, and I for one can't imagine what else his story could possibly surround. There has been a lot of emphasis on the idea that our new troopers have been brainwashed to fight, and that scene with Kylo questioning the effectiveness of Hux's brainwashing always seemed like foreshadowing to me. I don't think there would be any point at all in our Troopers being "brainwashed since birth" or "stolen children" if they intended to go nowhere with the idea.

The problem with Finn in TFA is that JJ essentially tried to have is cake and eat it too (i.e. paint the Stormtroopers as more than faceless cannon fodder and have them still be faceless cannon fodder, depending on the scene). Still, I would question a lot of the creative decisions in TFA if we didn't end up seeing the Troopers turn against the First Order before the end of this trilogy. Two separate villains (Hux and Phasma) were created to counter Finn's ex-Stormtrooper persona. I think an expectation has been set up here, even if Finn's characterization messed with it a little in TFA. It'll be difficult for Finn to interact with other Troopers at all without being reminded of this expectation, unless Rian always intended to elaborate on Finn's bad characterization rather than his good characterization.
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Post by CienaRee on Sat 06 Aug 2016, 8:56 am

@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:
@Saracene wrote:Finn liberating the other stormtroopers would have been a cool storyline, I'm just not sure they're going to go there when his stormtrooper background was so immaterial in TFA and had no real bearing on either Finn or the general view of the stormtroopers. For this storyline to work, the movies would have to really embrace the "stormtroopers are real people too" notion, with all the implications of it including the morality of the good guys killing victims of brainwashing from birth, instead of faceless figures the good guys can just shoot up and cheer. That's a lot of backtracking to do from where things were in TFA.
@Saracene
The thing about that is they did acknowledge it. There are at least four different scenes in this film that focus entirely around the notion that Stormtroopers are people/are victims in their own right in this trilogy (and separate material has only added added to it). Finn's sloppy characterization is what ended up getting in the way, and I for one can't imagine what else his story could possibly surround. There has been a lot of emphasis on the idea that our new troopers have been brainwashed to fight, and that scene with Kylo questioning the effectiveness of Hux's brainwashing always seemed like foreshadowing to me. I don't think there would be any point at all in our Troopers being "brainwashed since birth" or "stolen children" if they intended to go nowhere with the idea.

The problem with Finn in TFA is that JJ essentially tried to have is cake and eat it too (i.e. paint the Stormtroopers as more than faceless cannon fodder and have them still be faceless cannon fodder, depending on the scene). Still, I would question a lot of the creative decisions in TFA if we didn't end up seeing the Troopers turn against the First Order before the end of this trilogy. Two separate villains (Hux and Phasma) were created to counter Finn's ex-Stormtrooper persona. I think an expectation has been set up here, even if Finn's characterization messed with it a little in TFA. It'll be difficult for Finn to interact with other Troopers at all without being reminded of this expectation, unless Rian always intended to elaborate on Finn's bad characterization rather than his good characterization.
@FrolickingFizzgig

I agree.Otherwise why bother writing in a canon novel about Finn being compassionate leader and friends with the other Stormtroopers when the movie messed that up so badly.I
I mean without having that additional information you can argue that Finn did what he was doing to survive but knowing how he was friends with some of the Stromtroopers he was cheering on while killing them makes him look so much worse than he would otherwsie.The entire ''Traitor''scene also gains a new meaning if that Stormtrooper who called him that used to be his friend.
The problem is that TFA really screwed up Finn's charactarization when it comes to having issues with killing his fellow Stromtroopers so I don't know what would make him gain a sort if epiphany all of a sudden.

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Post by FrolickingFizzgig on Sat 06 Aug 2016, 9:10 am

@CienaRee wrote:
@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:
@Saracene wrote:Finn liberating the other stormtroopers would have been a cool storyline, I'm just not sure they're going to go there when his stormtrooper background was so immaterial in TFA and had no real bearing on either Finn or the general view of the stormtroopers. For this storyline to work, the movies would have to really embrace the "stormtroopers are real people too" notion, with all the implications of it including the morality of the good guys killing victims of brainwashing from birth, instead of faceless figures the good guys can just shoot up and cheer. That's a lot of backtracking to do from where things were in TFA.
@Saracene
The thing about that is they did acknowledge it. There are at least four different scenes in this film that focus entirely around the notion that Stormtroopers are people/are victims in their own right in this trilogy (and separate material has only added added to it). Finn's sloppy characterization is what ended up getting in the way, and I for one can't imagine what else his story could possibly surround. There has been a lot of emphasis on the idea that our new troopers have been brainwashed to fight, and that scene with Kylo questioning the effectiveness of Hux's brainwashing always seemed like foreshadowing to me. I don't think there would be any point at all in our Troopers being "brainwashed since birth" or "stolen children" if they intended to go nowhere with the idea.

The problem with Finn in TFA is that JJ essentially tried to have is cake and eat it too (i.e. paint the Stormtroopers as more than faceless cannon fodder and have them still be faceless cannon fodder, depending on the scene). Still, I would question a lot of the creative decisions in TFA if we didn't end up seeing the Troopers turn against the First Order before the end of this trilogy. Two separate villains (Hux and Phasma) were created to counter Finn's ex-Stormtrooper persona. I think an expectation has been set up here, even if Finn's characterization messed with it a little in TFA. It'll be difficult for Finn to interact with other Troopers at all without being reminded of this expectation, unless Rian always intended to elaborate on Finn's bad characterization rather than his good characterization.
@FrolickingFizzgig

I agree.Otherwise why bother writing in a canon novel about Finn being compassionate leader and friends with the other Stormtroopers when the movie messed that up so badly.I
I mean without having that additional information you can argue that Finn did what he was doing to survive but knowing how he was friends with some of the Stromtroopers he was cheering on while killing them makes him look so much worse than he would otherwsie.The entire ''Traitor''scene also gains a new meaning if that Stormtrooper who called him that used to be his friend.
The problem is that TFA really screwed up Finn's charactarization when it comes to having issues with killing his fellow Stromtroopers so I don't know what would make him gain a sort if epiphany all of a sudden.
@CienaRee
I just think the film itself draws too much attention to the idea of Stormtroopers being brainwashed child-soldiers. There's more than one scene revolving around reminding us. I have a hard time believing they wouldn't free the them in this trilogy, and the simple fact is I don't expect everything in our story to be perfect (Finn's characterization in TFA certainly wasn't). Retconning a bit of Finn's bad characterization is a small price in comparison to Leia kissing her twin brother.
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Post by CienaRee on Sat 06 Aug 2016, 9:28 am

@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:
@CienaRee wrote:
@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:
@Saracene wrote:Finn liberating the other stormtroopers would have been a cool storyline, I'm just not sure they're going to go there when his stormtrooper background was so immaterial in TFA and had no real bearing on either Finn or the general view of the stormtroopers. For this storyline to work, the movies would have to really embrace the "stormtroopers are real people too" notion, with all the implications of it including the morality of the good guys killing victims of brainwashing from birth, instead of faceless figures the good guys can just shoot up and cheer. That's a lot of backtracking to do from where things were in TFA.
@Saracene
The thing about that is they did acknowledge it. There are at least four different scenes in this film that focus entirely around the notion that Stormtroopers are people/are victims in their own right in this trilogy (and separate material has only added added to it). Finn's sloppy characterization is what ended up getting in the way, and I for one can't imagine what else his story could possibly surround. There has been a lot of emphasis on the idea that our new troopers have been brainwashed to fight, and that scene with Kylo questioning the effectiveness of Hux's brainwashing always seemed like foreshadowing to me. I don't think there would be any point at all in our Troopers being "brainwashed since birth" or "stolen children" if they intended to go nowhere with the idea.

The problem with Finn in TFA is that JJ essentially tried to have is cake and eat it too (i.e. paint the Stormtroopers as more than faceless cannon fodder and have them still be faceless cannon fodder, depending on the scene). Still, I would question a lot of the creative decisions in TFA if we didn't end up seeing the Troopers turn against the First Order before the end of this trilogy. Two separate villains (Hux and Phasma) were created to counter Finn's ex-Stormtrooper persona. I think an expectation has been set up here, even if Finn's characterization messed with it a little in TFA. It'll be difficult for Finn to interact with other Troopers at all without being reminded of this expectation, unless Rian always intended to elaborate on Finn's bad characterization rather than his good characterization.
@FrolickingFizzgig

I agree.Otherwise why bother writing in a canon novel about Finn being compassionate leader and friends with the other Stormtroopers when the movie messed that up so badly.I
I mean without having that additional information you can argue that Finn did what he was doing to survive but knowing how he was friends with some of the Stromtroopers he was cheering on while killing them makes him look so much worse than he would otherwsie.The entire ''Traitor''scene also gains a new meaning if that Stormtrooper who called him that used to be his friend.
The problem is that TFA really screwed up Finn's charactarization when it comes to having issues with killing his fellow Stromtroopers so I don't know what would make him gain a sort if epiphany all of a sudden.
@CienaRee
I just think the film itself draws too much attention to the idea of Stormtroopers being brainwashed child-soldiers. There's more than one scene revolving around reminding us. I have a hard time believing they wouldn't free the them in this trilogy, and the simple fact is I don't expect everything in our story to be perfect (Finn's characterization in TFA certainly wasn't). Retconning a bit of Finn's bad characterization is a small price in comparison to Leia kissing her twin brother.
@FrolickingFizzgig

Oh yeah,I hope they do retcon Finn's charactarization a bit otherwise it would be dissapointing if they don't do anything about the whole Stromtroopers being kidnapped and brainwashed as children especially since other canon materials have also mentioned that so it has to be important.

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Post by Guest on Sat 06 Aug 2016, 9:29 am

I don't buy Finn being Force sensitive at all. He was kept separate from the Force plot. Even when he'd asked Rey about it, he got non-answers like, "I can't explain it, and you wouldn't believe it!". He was unconscious when she displayed her powers, and remained so as she got ready to leave to train with Luke.

He gets laughably showed up when he tries to go toe-to-toe with an actual Force user. Kylo could have killed him straight away but toyed with him instead like a cat with a mouse. He just does not have a place within that part of the story. His strength will be with the Resistance vs. the First Order.

Yeah, he picked up and used a lightsaber at a time of need. So did Han. It wasn't false advertising; a lightsaber is just a weapon that anyone can use, even if it is normally associated with the Jedi/Sith.

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Post by BastilaBey on Sat 06 Aug 2016, 11:11 am

@WhatGirl I don't think there's any debate that Finn was separate from the force plot of TFA. But Leia was separate from all the force stuff in the OT and still force sensitive, so there is a precedent. At the moment there isn't conclusive evidence for it either way, imo, but he could head up the resistance narrative and still have some degree of powers. It depends on whether they feel the need to explain how he awakened, perhaps. It could just be left a total mystery, not everything needs to be spelled out.
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Post by Darth Dementor on Sat 06 Aug 2016, 11:45 am

WhatGirl wrote:I don't buy Finn being Force sensitive at all. He was kept separate from the Force plot. Even when he'd asked Rey about it, he got non-answers like, "I can't explain it, and you wouldn't believe it!". He was unconscious when she displayed her powers, and remained so as she got ready to leave to train with Luke.

He gets laughably showed up when he tries to go toe-to-toe with an actual Force user. Kylo could have killed him straight away but toyed with him instead like a cat with a mouse. He just does not have a place within that part of the story. His strength will be with the Resistance vs. the First Order.

Yeah, he picked up and used a lightsaber at a time of need. So did Han. It wasn't false advertising; a lightsaber is just a weapon that anyone can use, even if it is normally associated with the Jedi/Sith.
@WhatGirl

Yeah. I like Finn but Kylo clowned him hard. This video shows how it was Like Vader schooling Luke in ESB:


Finn lost against that Stormtrooper who called him a traitor, too.  If Chewie hadn't shot him with his Bowcaster the trooper would have killed Finn.  So far he's 0-2 using a saber. Embarassed

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Post by Guest on Sat 06 Aug 2016, 12:37 pm

@Darth Dementor wrote:Yeah. I like Finn but Kylo clowned him hard. This video shows how it was Like Vader schooling Luke in ESB:


Finn lost against that Stormtrooper who called him a traitor, too.  If Chewie hadn't shot him with his Bowcaster the trooper would have killed Finn.  So far he's 0-2 using a saber. Embarassed
@Darth Dementor

LOL that video! I didn't realize how similar those two fights were!

Yeah he lost to an ordinary stormtrooper... who tried to give him a fair fight by not using his blaster. And then to Kylo who was not using the Force but had more training. I don't really expect to see Finn using a lightsaber again in the next film.

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Post by Rimfaxe96 on Sat 06 Aug 2016, 12:49 pm

I don't see why a non-force sensitive Finn would need a lightsaber anyway? He's been pictured as brave-but-incompetent in TFA (at least in the end; until the moment he runs back to Han and asks where Rey is he was incompetent only Neutral), now let him develope from that point. He's found bravery and faced off with the guy who could make him pee himself before he deserted from the FO; let him show us some blaster skills. Cool
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Post by vaderito on Sat 06 Aug 2016, 3:14 pm

WhatGirl wrote:I don't buy Finn being Force sensitive at all. He was kept separate from the Force plot. Even when he'd asked Rey about it, he got non-answers like, "I can't explain it, and you wouldn't believe it!". He was unconscious when she displayed her powers, and remained so as she got ready to leave to train with Luke.

He gets laughably showed up when he tries to go toe-to-toe with an actual Force user. Kylo could have killed him straight away but toyed with him instead like a cat with a mouse. He just does not have a place within that part of the story. His strength will be with the Resistance vs. the First Order.

Yeah, he picked up and used a lightsaber at a time of need. So did Han. It wasn't false advertising; a lightsaber is just a weapon that anyone can use, even if it is normally associated with the Jedi/Sith.
@WhatGirl

I don't either. I'd say that his only claims to FS are 

a) "lightsaber deception" that used him to cover for Rey's role as the FS heroine, and

b) looking up when weapon was launched and that is very likely due to bad editing. Didn't Pablo say that screams came from people at Maz Castle? That's about as strong evidence as basing Reywalker on an assumption that rain Forceback is from the massacre of Luke's acolytes and that Rey was saved and dumped on Jakku for her protection. 

I mean, they could technically say that his FS manifested only once when he broke through Storm Trooper programming but I don't like that explanation. I'd prefer that he came to a moral conclusion on his own (shooting his fellow troopers notwothstanding) than crediting the Force for it. 

I can see why "Finn is FS" is a popular theory, though. People pity him cause the character got the wrong end of the stick and want him to be more than "that guy who drunk from space pig well". But FS wouldn't solve his problems especially making him Rey's third banana Jedi. cause that's what would've happened. They wouldn't be equal cause ST is her story, she's the main lead, and he would've been just a Jedi sidekick again. His best shot at being respected character and a lead in his own right is to run far far away from Rey. It's just the way it is. There would never be Rey and Finn show but only Rey show because the idea is to have a female lead. Which is why her plot absorbed his the moment they met and it was her story where he was just a guest. By giving her one plot with characters who don't cut into her main hero claim (Kylo the antagonist and Luke who's not the main protagonist no matter what his fans say) and him the other plot (KMT character is his LI and Poe isn't as big role as his), he'll be independent and have a chance to stand out.

Also, on purely aesthetic level, his jacket doesn't mash with a lightsaber, sorry. Too contemporary. His jacket is his trade mark. It's also a symbol of his belonging to the Resistance. So that's a giveaway where his destiny lies.  Lightsabers belong with more mysterious, old-fashioned robes. And jailbait Padawans belong in cartoons or otherwise it's just silly and pandering to hormonal adolescents.
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Post by Saracene on Sun 07 Aug 2016, 3:44 am

@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:
@Saracene wrote:Finn liberating the other stormtroopers would have been a cool storyline, I'm just not sure they're going to go there when his stormtrooper background was so immaterial in TFA and had no real bearing on either Finn or the general view of the stormtroopers. For this storyline to work, the movies would have to really embrace the "stormtroopers are real people too" notion, with all the implications of it including the morality of the good guys killing victims of brainwashing from birth, instead of faceless figures the good guys can just shoot up and cheer. That's a lot of backtracking to do from where things were in TFA.
@Saracene
The thing about that is they did acknowledge it. There are at least four different scenes in this film that focus entirely around the notion that Stormtroopers are people/are victims in their own right in this trilogy (and separate material has only added added to it). Finn's sloppy characterization is what ended up getting in the way, and I for one can't imagine what else his story could possibly surround. There has been a lot of emphasis on the idea that our new troopers have been brainwashed to fight, and that scene with Kylo questioning the effectiveness of Hux's brainwashing always seemed like foreshadowing to me. I don't think there would be any point at all in our Troopers being "brainwashed since birth" or "stolen children" if they intended to go nowhere with the idea.

The problem with Finn in TFA is that JJ essentially tried to have is cake and eat it too (i.e. paint the Stormtroopers as more than faceless cannon fodder and have them still be faceless cannon fodder, depending on the scene). Still, I would question a lot of the creative decisions in TFA if we didn't end up seeing the Troopers turn against the First Order before the end of this trilogy. Two separate villains (Hux and Phasma) were created to counter Finn's ex-Stormtrooper persona. I think an expectation has been set up here, even if Finn's characterization messed with it a little in TFA. It'll be difficult for Finn to interact with other Troopers at all without being reminded of this expectation, unless Rian always intended to elaborate on Finn's bad characterization rather than his good characterization.
@FrolickingFizzgig

I just never felt like all those stolen children/brainwashing elements were meant to extend the audience's sympathy to all of the stormtroopers. They seem to only exist for the sake of Finn's backstory and nothing more. It's like the writers went, ok so if Finn is a stormtrooper how did he end up one? The most sympathetic scenario is the one where he's snatched as a baby and has no choice about joining the FO.

I feel like Finn's entire characterisation is backwards - it's like they figured out his personality/character type first - everyman/comic relief - and then decided to add a stormtrooper background for plot reasons, whereas it should have been the reverse (Finn is a former stormtrooper - so what would a former stormtrooper's personality/behaviour be like?) For that reason, "Finn as a human face of stormtroopers" just doesn't ring true and really makes me doubt that they had any kind of big picture in mind when they added all that stuff about stolen kids etc.
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Post by Darth Dingbat on Sun 07 Aug 2016, 4:18 am

I'm of two minds about this... On one hand, I do think that if they go nowhere with Finn's Stormtrooper background, that's just shoddy writing.

On the other hand, I don't know if there are any plans to go anywhere with it - and I have my doubts. I really hope they give Finn a convincing epiphany regarding his former comrades, but at the same time, I feel like... I have my criticisms of JJ but I can't believe such an experienced filmmaker (flanked by Kasdan, to boot) would be so bad at characterisation that he'd do what he did with Finn in TFA if the character was intended to become a figurehead for a Stormtrooper rebellion all along. There were a million opportunities to inject some doubt, some moral conflict, some compassion into Finn's attitude towards the other Stormtroopers, or at least to tone down the "woohoo"-ing. But they didn't. Which makes me think that they probably didn't even think about it at the time.

Sometimes I wonder how much they're going to have to retcon or ignore TFA (not only when it comes to Finn) in order to tell an effective story going forward. I fear Finn's background may be just another example of "oh that would be cool, let's put that in the film" without any real meaning. We already have other examples of JJ not thinking things through.

Either way I think Rian's Finn will be a lot more interesting and effective character than JJ's Finn - I just don't know how the Stormtrooper background is going to play into it. As I wrote once before, it could be that Finn's background will just be a source of conflict for him with other Resistance characters. Poe trusts him already, but will KMT's character warm up to him so quickly, for instance? Are there others who don't trust him at all and make his life difficult? What about Laura Dern's character? etc.

(On the other hand, you'd expect them to trust him after he helped blow up the Starkiller Laughing But hey, who knows.)
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Post by Darth_Awakened on Sun 07 Aug 2016, 4:57 am

I am probably the only one here who has like a zero problem with woo-hoo-ing.
I ll try to explain without a single wish to provoke any further  "disturbance in the Force" over here.

My stance goes directly to the point of the fact why kids adore SW so much. And they do adore it. As I did when I was a kid.
I did not mind that Han shoot first, I did not mind why 100 stormtroopers got killed (I was clapping hands and grinning all along), and do not tell me they were all clones (because we did not know it back then).

SW had, and always will have a bit of cartoon moral (and I do not think in a pejorative way).

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Most of people like when lil Jerry does this to Tom. (Poor Tom lol)

The fact is that with more nuances added to Kylo (which is perfectly fine - he is the central figure (alongside with Rey) of this trilogy, adult people did expect some more nuances to the other characters.
I think that Finn as a character paid a price for something that Kathleen Kennedy and J.J. described as "our first goal is bringing the feeling back" to the franchise. Which they did, IMO.
And a part of that SW typical feeling is the mandatory woo-hoo-ing while killing.
I do not mind it, however I can understand why some people do.

Hopefully I was clear in my explanation and you would not think of me as a soulless monster. lol
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Post by Mana on Sun 07 Aug 2016, 5:07 am

Yeah..I agree that JJ and Kasdan had an idea of what kind of a person Finn would be, but not WHO he would be, which was their big mistake. For example, who can't have a character with a personality like Han Solo, and then decide to make him a stormtrooper, because that just doesn't fit, because you wouldn't expect a soldier trained from birth to behave like Han Solo, and thats exactly the problem with Finn, I'm not saying he's just like Han Solo, but his personality doesn't fit with a man who's been trained to be a soldier from birth. I think they were playing around with ideas about what to make him space pirate etc. and it was Kasdan who came up with the idea 'You guys are overthinking this, lets just make Finn a Stromtrooper who runs away'..when they probably should have overthinked it in the first place.

As mush as I'd love to see Finn lead a Stormtrooper rebellion, I can't see that happening either, unless Rian manages to execute it in an effective way..
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Post by Darth Dingbat on Sun 07 Aug 2016, 6:07 am

@Darth_Awakened, I don't think the woohoo-ing is in itself a problem - at least it isn't for me. I don't mind if the good guys woohoo as they kill bad guys in something like SW. That's just the way they roll. It only jars in light of Finn's background, especially as the Stormtrooper calling out "Traitor!" emphasises that these are people who know him personally. Had Finn been some random smuggler, the woohoo-ing wouldn't even have registered, for me. And of course, if Finn weren't a former Stormtrooper, they would never even have brought up the idea of them being kidnapped children.

I actually thought it might have gone either way up until the Takodana battle. That would have been the perfect opportunity to inject some conflict, doubt and compassion into Finn's attitude towards the Stormtroopers. But none of it was there. That makes me feel like the relationship was established as purely antagonistic from now on, and Finn is just the one sole exception among the other cannon fodder Stormtroopers. But I'd be happy to be proven wrong.
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Post by So-Old-Juvenile Named Ewa on Sun 07 Aug 2016, 10:54 am

In the case of Finn as the possible leader of the Stormtroopers' rebellion and the problems with his attitude towards his ex-comrades in TFA: what if it's going to be the the basis for the supposed darkness (or 'weirdness') in the Episode VIII, mentioned by both John and Oscar? And in the case of showing the humane side of the other Stormtroopers, it may be easier, if it will turn out that KMT's character used to be a Stormtrooper as well, but she either deserted as Finn (and later she was promised by FO that they leave her alone, if she'll help them in catching Finn and Poe) or started working as the FO spy. When I've read the news about Tom Hardy's cameo in the Ep. VIII, it included the information that the Stormtroopers as a whole think that Finn is the FO spy in the Resistance - what if they would think so due to the fact that similar accidents had already happened in the past?
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Post by FrolickingFizzgig on Sun 07 Aug 2016, 11:14 am

I think ignoring all the emphasis on the Troopers being human, stolen children and brainwashed would be much worse writing than retconning a tiny bit of Finn's characterization. Think about it logically, many of us consider small parts Finn's characterization to be actual writing flaws, while nobody ever said that about the Troopers being brainwashed soldiers trained to kill. Placing all the emphasis on the fact that they aren't clones (and having one of our protagonists be a deserter) sets up an expectation of sorts that the Troopers will have to be freed in some way. Not only is the second scenario (turning the Troopers back into useless canon fodder) a total head-scratcher, it's at least half as boring as Kylo getting "eeeevilllllller".

And if Finn's story isn't about the Trooper program and Phasa and Hux, what can it be about? Why are there two villains who seem to have partly been created to counter Finn? Why place emphasis on these villains having to do with the Trooper program itself, its inception, its uses of brainwashing and kidnapping, etc. If Rey is going to be off on the Force Plot with Luke, Kylo and probably Snoke, who's going to take down the First Order? Who's going to interact with the Stormtrooper villains?

Narratively there's a huge gap in the story without imagining that Finn will have to be the resistance hero who takes down the First Order.
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Post by vaderito on Sun 07 Aug 2016, 11:39 am

@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:I think ignoring all the emphasis on the Troopers being human, stolen children and brainwashed would be much worse writing than retconning a tiny bit of Finn's characterization. Think about it logically, many of us consider small parts Finn's characterization to be actual writing flaws, while nobody ever said that about the Troopers being brainwashed soldiers trained to kill. Placing all the emphasis on the fact that they aren't clones (and having one of our protagonists be a deserter) sets up an expectation of sorts that the Troopers will have to be freed in some way. Not only is the second scenario (turning the Troopers back into useless canon fodder) a total head-scratcher, it's at least half as boring as Kylo getting "eeeevilllllller".

And if Finn's story isn't about the Trooper program and Phasa and Hux, what can it be about? Why are there two villains who seem to have partly been created to counter Finn? Why place emphasis on these villains having to do with the Trooper program itself, its inception, its uses of brainwashing and kidnapping, etc. If Rey is going to be off on the Force Plot with Luke, Kylo and probably Snoke, who's going to take down the First Order? Who's going to interact with the Stormtrooper villains?

Narratively there's a huge gap in the story without imagining that Finn will have to be the resistance hero who takes down the First Order.
@FrolickingFizzgig

IMO, Storm Trooper's rebellion or liberation should happen for reasons you mentioned plus because FO crumbling from the inside would be different from how Rebellion defeated the Empire. The Resistance is but a fraction of Rebellion size so doing another big space battle where someone blows up another SKB would be beyond redundant. But Finn igniting Storm Trooper unrest would be completely new direction and they have tools for that. Also, they don't have to make them join the Resistance but simply refuse to do FO bidding. Which would create an interesting situation. Since they want to make more movies, whether new Episodes or spin offs set in VII-IX timeline, they cna't end IX with total peace. Or with 100% happy ending a la ROTJ.
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Post by So-Old-Juvenile Named Ewa on Sun 07 Aug 2016, 12:01 pm

@vaderito wrote:
@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:I think ignoring all the emphasis on the Troopers being human, stolen children and brainwashed would be much worse writing than retconning a tiny bit of Finn's characterization. Think about it logically, many of us consider small parts Finn's characterization to be actual writing flaws, while nobody ever said that about the Troopers being brainwashed soldiers trained to kill. Placing all the emphasis on the fact that they aren't clones (and having one of our protagonists be a deserter) sets up an expectation of sorts that the Troopers will have to be freed in some way. Not only is the second scenario (turning the Troopers back into useless canon fodder) a total head-scratcher, it's at least half as boring as Kylo getting "eeeevilllllller".

And if Finn's story isn't about the Trooper program and Phasa and Hux, what can it be about? Why are there two villains who seem to have partly been created to counter Finn? Why place emphasis on these villains having to do with the Trooper program itself, its inception, its uses of brainwashing and kidnapping, etc. If Rey is going to be off on the Force Plot with Luke, Kylo and probably Snoke, who's going to take down the First Order? Who's going to interact with the Stormtrooper villains?

Narratively there's a huge gap in the story without imagining that Finn will have to be the resistance hero who takes down the First Order.
@FrolickingFizzgig

IMO, Storm Trooper's rebellion or liberation should happen for reasons you mentioned plus because FO crumbling from the inside would be different from how Rebellion defeated the Empire. The Resistance is but a fraction of Rebellion size so doing another big space battle where someone blows up another SKB would be beyond redundant. But Finn igniting Storm Trooper unrest would be completely new direction and they have tools for that. Also, they don't have to make them join the Resistance but simply refuse to do FO bidding. Which would create an interesting situation. Since they want to make more movies, whether new Episodes or spin offs set in VII-IX timeline, they cna't end IX with total peace. Or with 100% happy ending a la ROTJ.

@vaderito
All of this^

Besides, we can't forget that the main characters in the sequels - Rey, Finn and Kylo - are young people deprived of their childhoods, and it's definitely going to be explored, especially when we know now that most probably Armitage Hux is such person as well, and that even Poe's childhood wasn't fully happy (due to his mother's sudden death). The most important thing is that all of them lost their childhoods in various ways (I exclude Pox from this list, cause it would make it easier):
-Rey was abandoned on the desert planet and had to cope with life almost completely on her own;
-Finn was kidnapped from his parents and had to spent the majority of his life with his peers with the same fate;
-Kylo had loving parents, who - despite being good people - most probably made some serious mistakes, which was later used by the dark figure pretending to be his friend/protector;
-Hux was an illegitimate child, who wasn't even loved by his parent(s), and was targeted by some (probably the same) dark figure as well.

This subject is really emphasized, so writing Finn's past off would be a mistake.
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Post by vaderito on Sun 07 Aug 2016, 12:11 pm

@So-Old-Juvenile Named Ewa And Finn's past is what makes him unique and an asset. he isn't just another Resistance member but an ex Storm Trooper who somehow acted against what programming required of him. It's not to say that Storm troopers are mindless like the Borg, far from it. But they weren't offered the alternative way of thinking and yet, somehow, Finn acquired that. It wouldn't make sense to push him either in Yet Another Resistance Hotshot box or Yet Another Jedi box when he's something entirely different.
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Post by Xylo Ren on Sun 14 Aug 2016, 12:35 pm

Finn seems nervous and unsure, and he's afraid a lot...

but he does it anyway.

That's what makes someone brave. They're still afraid, petrified even, but they face the danger anyway. He's a good role model for sure. Approves
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Post by Rimfaxe96 on Sun 14 Aug 2016, 12:52 pm

I loved the Finn & BB-8 and Finn & Phasma scenes. Laughing
They also repeatedly showed how much more educated Finn is compared to Rey who knows next to nothing except whatever she picked up from conversation/rumor on Jakku. I hope we'll get to see Finn use his knowledge of the FO to undermine them as good as possible.

I mean he knows the drill; he just has to take out a stormtrooper, take his armour and then mingle among the other troopers (perhaps leading a few Resistance fighters in disguise). He just has to make sure Ren isn't around or controls have been stepped up etc.
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Post by jakkusun on Sun 14 Aug 2016, 12:58 pm

@Rimfaxe96 wrote:I loved the Finn & BB-8 and Finn & Phasma scenes. Laughing
They also repeatedly showed how much more educated Finn is compared to Rey who knows next to nothing except whatever she picked up from conversation/rumor on Jakku. I hope we'll get to see Finn use his knowledge of the FO to undermine them as good as possible.
@Rimfaxe96

This! I feel like people don't talk about this enough. That Finn was basically a walking Star Wars Encyclopedia. Smile I love that about him. I think, based in this and the before the awakening story about him, he was probably the top student in the Stormtrooper program in both knowledge of history and combat skills.


Last edited by jakkusun on Sun 14 Aug 2016, 12:59 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by Maria Antonietta on Sun 14 Aug 2016, 12:58 pm

Even Jar Jar is brave but nobody gives him enough credit for it. Funny this comes out from the guy who likes evilness evil. Yooooo Kylo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Get revenge and kill them all!!!!!!!!!!!! lol!
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